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The AIH Transcript For September 06, 2021

[hosts]Carol Off, Chris Howden[/hosts]

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is “As It Happens”.

[music: theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

CO: Bruising instead of cruising. It's gloves-off on the campaign trail, now that it's clear the Liberals' dream of an easy victory is over -- and our political panel will assess who's landing punches, and who's flailing.

CH: Points of departure, Part 1. After two decades of covering the conflict in Afghanistan, journalist Bilal Sarwary had to flee for Canada. In a feature interview, he tells Carol his hopes for himself and his country.

CO: Points of departure, Part 2. Ten years ago, when Canada ended its mission in Kandahar, we spoke with soldiers and Afghan civilians about their experiences -- tonight, we'll revisit that documentary.

CH: Soundtrack to a revolution. We remember the late Greek composer and activist Mikis Theodorakis, whose exuberant music and outspoken views led to international acclaim -- and political retribution.

CO: Welcome to the bungle. At a big festival show on Saturday, Guns 'n' Roses failed to wrap up by curfew -- but luckily, the crowd stayed amped up even when the amps got turned off.

CH: And...she was looking for a change of pastry. A photographer spent her summer taking pictures of contestants in pie-eating contests -- and her efforts, like their faces, really bore fruit.

CH: “As It Happens,” the Monday edition. Radio that admires people who berry themselves in their work.

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Part 1: Election Panel, Pie-Eating Photographer,

Election Panel

Guests: Althia Raj, John Ivison

CH: If the Liberal party was hoping to coast to an easy majority with a quiet summer campaign -- and it was -- things are not going as planned. Most polls show the Conservatives and Liberals in a very tight race. So with two weeks to go until the election, today, Mr. Trudeau was on the offensive.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Erin O'Toole wouldn't make sure everyone on a plane or train is vaccinated. In fact, he won't even make sure his own candidates are vaccinated. And why? It's simple. Because the far-right, anti-vax, fringe wing of his party won't let him. What Erin O'Toole is doing isn't leadership. It's pandering to special interests. And not just on vaccines. He was asked which of the assault weapons that we banned would he make legal again, the one that killed women in Montreal, 14 of them at Ecole Polytechnique, the ones that killed innocent people in Nova Scotia. He wouldn't answer that either.

CH: That was Liberal leader Justin Trudeau speaking in Welland, Ontario today. To bring us up to speed on the federal election campaign and where the leaders stand so far, we're joined by Althia Raj and John Ivison. Althia Raj is a political journalist who appears on "The National"'s At Issue panel. She's just north of Quebec City. And John Ivison is a political columnist at the National Post. He's in Ottawa.

CO: Althia and John, first of all, welcome to “As It Happens.”

JOHN IVISON: Hi.

ALTHIA RAJ: Thank you for having us.

CO: We saw this campaign begin with we thought the liberals perhaps were hoping we would all kind of sleepwalk our way into giving them a majority. And it has turned into a race, of all things. Althia, first of all, from you, what has made this a real campaign?

AR: [chuckle] I think the liberals were not ready for the campaign that they called, truthfully. And the Conservatives were. And the NDP, frankly, as well. It is still shocking to me that they were so ill-prepared for that campaign. I think there was a couple of things that prevented them from kind of getting the messages that they wanted across -- notably Afghanistan. But also, they relied on the assumption that people would stop caring and asking the questions of why are we even having this election after three days? And we are still talking about why we're having this election. So their... their assumptions for this campaign were clearly wrong. John, we just heard in that clip from Justin Trudeau trying to set up Erin O’Toole as pay no attention to that... that nice man you might have heard. This is a scary guy who has a far-right fringe wing that’s really calling the shots for him. And so what do you make of that? Why do you think that... that Justin Trudeau is taking that tack?

JI: Well, they’re clearly in trouble. I mean, I think the polls showed that... that the Conservatives were rising in support. And I think there’s a real danger that the Liberals might go into freefall. And that this time for change number, which is really predictive of the... of the way people will vote, that that was rising so fast that... that it might all be over by Labour Day. So I think that's absolutely everything. I mean, if you have Justin Trudeau this morning, it was a long way from “Sunny Ways.” And, you know, previous campaigns, it's always been about the hopeful narrative. And yet here he threw everything but the kitchen sink at Erin O’Toole, lumping him in with special interest groups, anti-vaxxers, anti-choice groups, climate deniers. You know, there's not much left to accuse him of after this. I mean, I do think that they may have a problem next week when, you know, we get into the the final stages of the campaign. And they've... they've called him every name under the sun.

CO: But also more difficult because he is getting to be very good at shapeshifting, isn't he, Erin O’Toole, his ability to just when you think that he has been sort of nailed to the wall, he just changes the position and seems to be able to move further and further into being a good old-fashioned federal Progressive Conservative. What do you make of that? I'll ask both of you. Althia, I'll start with you.

AR: Well, I'm not sure, actually, that he's shifting to a more old-fashioned Progressive Conservative. I think what the Liberals have been worried about. And I think one of the reasons that they're trying all these different lines of attack against Erin O'Toole is that still, when you are polling people, either progressive-centre or centre-left voters, many of them still think that the Liberals will remain in power. And here they are reminding people that actually, you know, you should get used to the idea of Erin O’Toole as a prime minister because that's a real possibility. And do you want to have a Conservative government when it comes to things like more private health care when it comes to things like less action on climate change when it comes to things on loosening gun laws? So I think that's part of their challenge. The thing with Erin O'Toole is that he has proven himself, not just during this election campaign, which notably on his position on gun control, but in the leadership race to lead the Conservative Party to run on a very specific agenda, which was a, you know, much more to the right of Peter Mackay, who was probably running in that campaign as a Progressive Conservative. Now, in this general election, he wants us all to believe that he is, in the words of one Conservative, a flaming red Tory. [CO chuckles] And, you know, that speaks to authenticity. And, you know, can you... who is Erin O’Toole? What does he really believe? I think that that is a line of attack that the Liberals think that maybe they'll be able to pierce through even some of those Conservative-Liberal switchers because we don't really know, you know, a lot of this. And I think that the silence that we heard during the TVI debate when it came to things like child care or private health care, there are a lot of answers to fill in the blanks, and it's kind of up to you, unless Mr. O'Toole does it himself, to decide what you think the party led by him would... would look like.

CO: John, from your view, what... you've seen him campaigning. Who is the real Erin O'Toole? Is he the scary guy that Trudeau just mentioned there, [laughing] or is he a flaming red Tory?

JI: Well, I mean, I think we've seen that he'll be whoever you want him to be. You know, Trudeau this morning accused him of wishy-washy, weak leadership. And he said he'll say anything to the Canadians to get elected, which I think is kind of dangerous terrain for Justin Trudeau to go, given his history with electoral reform and so on. But I think, you know, Erin O’Toole, I think really is in this campaign trying to be a traditional Progressive Conservative. And that creates its own dangers because, you know, on guns, for example, now there's an incentive for people to vote for the People's Party. And that could cause some real splits. And we've seen Conservative candidates lose because the PPC comes in and takes some of their votes. But I think the biggest danger, the election really hinges on those progressive voters who really want to vote NDP but might end up voting Liberal unless he can convince them that he is not the scary character that he's being made out to be.

CO: And you just mentioned his position on gun control, and which is I hope you can clarify what exactly he is saying. We're going to have a little clip of Erin O'Toole. And this is from yesterday after his new promise to maintain a ban on assault-style guns. Here he is.

SOUNDCLIP

ERIN O’TOOLE: Well, Mike, as I've always said, the ban on assault weapons will remain in place.

MIKE: You have not always said that, sir.

EO: The ban on the assault weapons will stay in place. The restrictions put in place in 2020 will remain in place.

CO: OK, so, I mean, we know that he's... the 1977 assault weapons ban. We know that he doesn't want Canadians to be carrying machine guns. But what exactly is he saying?

JI: Well, so I said this this morning, that he had his back to the Burrard Inlet when he made that announcement to us yesterday in Vancouver. But really, his back was to the wall because the Conservative campaign had stalled 10 questions a day from reporters on guns. So he shifted his position. The position in the platform was that the order in council, which the Liberals put in place in May 2020, which outlawed something like 1,500 semiautomatic weapons. In the platform, that was going to be rescinded. Yesterday, he made it clear that it will stay in place until they have a classification review, which clearly is going to be punted off long into the tallgrass post-election. So it's not quite clear where... where he's... he's going to land on this because he says he wants to remove the politics of it. But this was really a mistake on their part because it was something that Althia mentioned earlier, that in the leadership, he was taking pretty extreme positions to outflank Peter Mackay. This was one of the promises that more or less remained intact from the leadership. And, you know, he had pretty cozy ties with the gun lobby. And now he's just severed those ties or at least temporarily cut them. So we'll see where it lands. But I think it really damaged him because it made people wonder, well, what else is he not telling us the truth on?

CO: John, I want to ask you about another alarming aspect of a campaign that you have been covering and... and doing some interesting work on, which is the... those people who are showing up at the rallies of the Liberals and getting into... making very, very ugly scenes for Mr. Trudeau. What do you make of that? Do you think that that is something that is... we have to watch in this campaign?

JI: Yeah, I think it was kind of disturbing. I mean, it was the most un-Canadian of things I've seen in an election. I mean, it was... it was... there was an undercurrent of violence and intimidation there. I think that there's a dehumanization on both sides, dehumanization of... of Justin Trudeau and the Liberals and any other politician who supports vaccination. But also a dehumanisation by Trudeau. I think he bears his share of blame in this. I mean, we saw in his press conference in Welland, he’s pretty hard-line on… on anti-vaxxers who make up, you know, between 20... 10 to 20 per cent of the population, most responsible and reasonable people think that vaccination is a good thing and it should be done. But you can't dehumanize the people who have decided against it. I mean, it's still a free country. And, you know, I acknowledge that there should be passports and their access to the places should be restricted. But I think the language, the politicization of this issue, has been very damaging for the democratic process.

CO: Althia, very ugly, of course. But at the same time, I'm sure you're hearing... quite unscientific data [chuckling] to share, which is that the numbers of people I heard over the summer who are really tired of Justin Trudeau, he's... he's... he's not really... he's not that popular personally. So how much... what does Justin Trudeau have to... have to take on as far as his responsibility for the Liberal fortunes right now?

AR: Well, we would not be in this election campaign if the Liberal leader and those around him did not feel like this was an appropriate time to call an election. It is completely on him that if the Liberals lose the election, it is his fault. He could have kept governing for two years. There is... you know, I know that they don't like to negotiate with the NDP, and they find that the antics... the opposition's antics and committees were annoying. But, you know, that's... it's kind of your lot if you're a minority government. You need to deal with it. And they actually had dance partners who were willing to dance with them and who are so ideologically similar. I mean, the one thing that we haven't really talked about in this election campaign is when you look at these parties platforms, how much the political parties actually agree with each other. The challenge for the Liberals, frankly, is not to make the vote on September 20th a referendum on Justin Trudeau. Because if it is, they're likely to lose. They have to make the election about the issues because when you talk about the issues that the liberals care about, whether that's tougher action on climate change. For example, their policies are actually popular. They're actually policies shared with the NDP, for example, and the Bloc Québecois. And as I just said, some parts of the Conservative platform. I think that's their biggest challenge. But if they lose, it's you know, Justin Trudeau had the ability to say, no, I'm not walking over the governor general's on August 15th, and he chose to walk over. So it's on him.

CO: We haven't spoken about the NDP and Jagmeet Sing’s performance. I wonder if perhaps Justin Trudeau, maybe even Erin O’Toole as well, underestimated Mr. Singh's ability to run a really stellar campaign?

AR: I don't think they underestimated Jagmeet Singh. I think they thought that Mr. Singh... I mean, they... they knew he was personally popular. He polls a lot higher than his party's brand, actually. They thought the challenge they were going to have was if the Conservatives were low, that they're... that voter coalition that they'd built in 2015 would not be able to replicate itself. And that was the challenge that they were concerned about going in. I think that the camp that they underestimated, frankly, was the Conservatives.

CO: I’m just going to ask both of you in closing what you will be watching for in these next two weeks? I'll start with you, John.

JI: I think that that's... that's the issue. Can the... can the NDP keep its share of the vote up? I am kind of surprised at how the PPC, Max Bernier’s People's Party, is not really showing strongly in the polls. I think the further that Erin O’Toole waters down his platform, if you like, then that vote might grow. And it might surprise us how many... how many votes that the PPC gets.

CO: Althia?

AR: Well, this week, we have the two official leaders’ debates. And I think there's lots of kind of blanks to fill in, as I mentioned from the TVI debate in the French debate. So I'll be watching for that. I think the English debates are really going to matter. Do people watching the debate leave the debate thinking that they're comfortable with the idea of Erin O'Toole as prime minister? Or do they leave the debate thinking that we're not ready to trust the Conservatives right away? And I think that's where things are going to land in the week after. And then if Mr. O'Toole has a really strong performance, how the Liberals try to change the tone which we've seen just over the weekend with them, contrast ads with Erin O'Toole's past ads with the words that he's saying now. You know, is this going to be a far more negative campaign than we had even expected going in?

CO: OK, we'll be watching all of this. What was already starting to become a very interesting campaign, you have both made it even more so. [chuckle] And I thank you both. Thank you.

AR: Thank you very much.

CH: Althia Raj is a political journalist who appears on the At Issue panel on CBC-TV's "The National". She was just north of Quebec City. And John Ivison is a political columnist at the National Post. He was in Ottawa.

[music: hip-hop beat]

Pie-Eating Photographer

Guest: Maggie Shannon

SOD: Guns N’ Roses Unplugged

CH: If the rock band Guns N' Roses asked you to create a set list and to save one song for an encore -- "Paradise City" would be a good choice. It's a hard-hitting crowd pleaser. And if you could bring Dave Grohl on stage as a surprise guest for the finale, you'd be all set. And it seemed like they were. On Saturday night, Guns N' Roses brought the Foo Fighters' singer-guitarist on stage to close their set at Napa Valley, California's BottleRock festival. They ripped into the first verse of "Paradise City". It was an electric moment -- until suddenly -- it wasn't electric at all.

SOUNDCLIP

[sound: the crowd, Guns N’ Roses and Dave Grohl share in the singing of “Paradise City.”]

CH: That's the sound of Guns N' Roses and Dave Grohl abruptly losing power, midway through their performance of "Paradise City". The organizers of the festival pulled the plug on the band after they broke the strict 10 pm curfew. That's become something of a tradition. The same thing happened when Mr. Grohl and the Foo Fighters broke curfew at the festival in 2017. Now, fortunately, you can't cut power to drums or stage amps. And the crowd was more than ready to take its cue, and step in to handle vocals.

SOUNDCLIP

[sound: Again, the crowd, Guns N’ Roses and Dave Grohl share in the singing of “Paradise City.” But now the audience is louder than the band and Grohl as the power has been cut.]

CH: Guns N' Roses and Dave Grohl, with help from their fans, performing an unplugged version of "Paradise City" at Napa Valley, California's BottleRock festival. The organizers pulled the plug on the performance after the band broke the festival's strict curfew. It's our Sound of the Day.

[music: electronica]

Part 2: Afghanistan: Bilal Sarwary

Afghanistan: Bilal Sarwary

Guest: Bilal Sarwary

CH: For the Americans, the war in Afghanistan is over. But Afghans -- who've already endured more than four decades of conflict -- are still facing instability, uncertainty and violence. Tonight, we're devoting the rest of "As It Happens" to special coverage of the situation unfolding in Afghanistan. The Taliban claims it has now taken control of the entire country. It's unclear what that will mean for the future. But so far, for too many Afghan people, it has meant fearing for their lives. We’ve heard the voices of Afghans who are desperate to leave the country. And we’ve heard about the roadblocks they’ve faced trying to get out. Recently, we got some news about an Afghan journalist who has spoken to "As It Happens" many times over the years -- Bilal Sarwary. Here is the BBC's Lyse Doucet.

SOUNDCLIP

LYSE DOUCET: But I was exchanging, you know, WhatsApp messages trying to help friends. And one of them is Bilal Sarwary, who I have known since he was a scraggly, young, 20-something Afghan who'd been working at a antique shop in the northern city of Peshawar. And he came with journalists to Kabul as the Taliban were on the run. And he started working for us at the BBC. And by sheer force of personality, he got himself to university in the United States. He developed a book of contacts that would be the envy of any journalist. And he became in recent years the most prominent journalist telling the story of Afghanistan in English. But because he was so prominent, many of us wondered whether or not he'd be able to stay. And so I was discussing how to help Bilal as I was flying to Kabul. And as we got off the plane, we then saw the queue, the long line of people to get on the plane. And there was Bilal. And I didn't expect him. And all of a sudden I said, Bilal, you know, you were always the one who said, I will never leave Afghanistan. He was the most patriotic Afghan journalist that I know. So that if even he had said, I have to go. And he said this is not a time for rhetoric, I hope the Taliban have learnt the lessons of the past. I did my best to tell Afghanistan’s story. And even recently, his first daughter was born and he named her Sola, which means peace. And I asked about sola. And he said, well, I hope she will understand the decisions I have made for her.

CH: The BBC's Lyse Doucet. Bilal Sarwary is now safe in Toronto. We reached him today for a feature interview about his departure from Afghanistan -- and his hopes and fears for his own future -- and the future of his country.

CO: Bilal, first of all, big welcome to Canada.

BILAL SARWARY: Thank you. It's good to be in our new home in Canada.

CO: When you hear Lyse Doucet describe seeing you in that airport some… well, weeks ago, I guess, now. And in the midst of that horrible panic of so many people, just ugly scenes of people trying to get out, what... what comes to mind? What do you remember about those desperate moments?

BS: I think it was perhaps the most painful interview I would have done with anyone. You know, that was the day that I could simply not control my emotions. It was also the day that we buried our dreams and aspirations and futures. So, you know, we are now in a new home in Canada, a country that has welcomed us. You know, people are very friendly. And it's also the new home where we will continue to cultivate dreams, you know, for our daughter, for our family. And from here, we will not give up on Afghanistan. From here, we will continue to be the voice of those who will be reaching out to us.

CO: As we heard from Lyse, you have been covering the story of what's happening in Afghanistan for these 20 years of war. And so intimately involved with the story of your country. So the point when you realized that you had to go, you had to leave. Can you just tell us what it is? What was going on at that moment that made you understand that you had to flee with your wife, with your family, with this little girl?

BS: I think the frequent visits by various Taliban fighters and commanders outside of my office, which was just next door to my home. And, at that moment, I realized that, OK, you know, these are not only risks to myself, but also to my young daughter and to my family. And when I was told that I had to basically leave my office and my home for an undisclosed location with my wife, with my baby daughter, Sola, and with my elderly parents, I felt like the world stopped there. And that drive was not more than like five minutes from my home to the Serena Hotel, where we would be hiding for the next few days before the Qataris, you know, very efficiently evacuated myself and my family, along with 150 people. I felt like nowhere in Kabul was safe. This wasn't the city that I called home. This wasn't the city that I was so accustomed to. For example, the drive from my home to the Serena Hotel would literally take an hour, inching my way through traffic jams. And on that day, the roads were so empty. Kabul was a city that I felt had lost its soul and heart, no matter what had happened over the 20 years that we were there, through thick and thin, Kabul had given us the strength required to survive, you know, amidst heartbreaks, amidst losing your friends. Losing, actually, you’re hope for... for a peace process, losing hope for a country. But no matter what, no matter where I went in the world, I always came back to it. That day was just a day that, actually, I felt like, you know, a knife had basically been inside my heart. I was so broken, you know, from within that. I just can't explain the excruciating pain that I went through on that day.

CO: There's another day I want to ask you about which goes back years. You left Afghanistan as a child back in the 90s. As Liz was saying, you were... she met you... or you were straggly fellow [chuckling] selling antiques in Pakistan. And you had left because of, well, the US proxy war against the Soviets that left Afghanistan in horrible civil war. You came back after 9/11. Can you describe that day when you returned, and what did you make of the Afghanistan you found then?

BS: I was sitting in the antique shop that I used to work with as a salesman in the Pearl-Continental Hotel in Peshawar, which was a very happening place. And right after the 9/11 attacks, there was a sudden influx of foreign media. And my luck and my world literally changed. Overnight, I was offered a job with Abu Dhabi TV. I remember crossing into Afghanistan, you know, barely literally remembering my own country that I had been forced to leave as a kid. And I remember just before getting to the city of Jalalabad with the UAE Red Crescent, we were bombed by the Americans. An airstrike took place hitting the convoy and we survived. And this wasn't like a country that I could barely remember. It almost resembled like a destroyed society, you know? Everything was destroyed. In coming to Kabul, the city that had been my home as a child, there was harsh winter cold. There was no electricity. There was extreme levels of poverty. And Afghanistan was a country where Afghans started a fight for peace. Afghanistan had to be rebuilt. Afghanistan had to be rebuilt piece by piece. And that journey became so personal for me because I saw the start of suicide truck bombs. I saw the start of new lives. I saw commitment by certain Afghans. It was a fight, no matter good or bad, you know, Afghans began to build that country along with the international community. Because one thing that Kabul and Afghanistan instilled in us was the sense of hope, that things would get better sooner or later.

CO: You mentioned the bombings, but also the efforts to rebuild the country. This is something Canada was very much engaged in, believing that this was a war, but also a nation-building exercise. The Americans, not so much as they have said many times. But this mission was led by the United States. What was your impression of the foreign forces, and especially the Americans, and how they conducted themselves in that post-Taliban, post-9/11 era?

BS: I would like to think of it as a catalogue of errors, you know, the Americans aligning themselves with notorious warlords and figures who had brought shame and misery and sufferings on Afghans during the 1990s. This was one of the very early mistakes that really undermined the former president, Hamid Karzai, who was obviously very weak. I also believe that the window to negotiate with Taliban who are willing to come back to normal lives was shot by the Americans because there was a sense of revenge after the 9/11 attacks. You have to also remember that Bush went to Iraq, to the war, highjacking all the resources and attention from Afghanistan. But the fact that corruption became extremely rampant. And this was a sign of Afghans losing their hopes in the new Afghanistan, where the Americans would carry airstrikes or night raids based on false intelligence or personal rivalries at a village district level. I remember one Afghan general telling me and my former BBC colleague, Martin Patience, when we went to have a cup of tea with him, he looked at us and he said, if you want to destroy a country, you make it corrupt. And I always remembered the words of that general for the next 17, 18 years in my mind because I saw practically how Afghans were being sidelined and forced into the corner, not only by the Americans and the international community, but by the Afghan government and politicians. I believe it allowed the breathing space for the Taliban to capitalize on those mistakes.

CO: You saw that corruption creeping into those relationships with those warlords and others, which many Afghans saw with disgust. But they also... you have written about the other part of the American campaign, which was that it continued to... to bomb to... in order to have drone strikes on the Taliban. You said at one point, ordinary Afghans came to see the sky as a source of fear. I want to just play a clip of you speaking about those strikes. This is in 2017 after the United States dropped a massive weapon that was called the ‘Mother of All Bombs’ in Nangarhar province. And here's a bit of our conversation from 2017.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Bilal, can you first of all, tell us what you're hearing from Achin, this district where this giant bomb hit?

BS: I was able to speak to an Afghan local police commander, who said a series of tunnels belonging to the Islamic State or ISIS, were targeted. And the bomb shook the entire district, according to him and other residents. And according to one villager, there's not a single home where you can find a window. Every single window is broken.

CO: Is... your sources telling you about casualties, about civilians or anyone that they know who was killed in the blast?

BS: The Afghan local police commander, the provincial council members that I'm speaking to, they're only saying that they believe at least 20 to 30 fighters may have been killed. There are homes we don't know if people are still living or not. That, we still have to wait and see.

CO: But for sure, when you were there, you saw families, men, women, children, farmers, it's a big wheat growing area. You saw all of this when you were visiting?

BS: I saw a normal life. I saw life amid conflict. I saw people getting used to the idea of living between both sides. I also saw, for example, wedding parties getting hit by air strikes, being mistaken for Taliban or ISIS. I also saw government, for example, mistaking civilians as enemies. I also saw ISIS and Taliban fighters mistaking villagers for enemies. So, it’s... it's an incredibly difficult situation where Afghan villagers live.

CO: That was Bilal Sarwary speaking with us back in 2017 from Afghanistan. Bilal is now in Canada. He had to leave the country with his family, fearing for his life. And we are speaking with him tonight as part of a special coverage of Afghanistan. Bilal, what effect did that, those bombs, those drone strikes have on people's faith in us, in our mission in that country?

BS: Well, those strikes were counterproductive. They killed civilians in very big numbers. And what was the irony of this tragedy? That it kept happening again and again. I think it alienated a very big number of the Afghan population in rural areas, who continued to see the sky as a source of fear. These drones and fighter jets and B-52s, you name it. They were terrorising children and women. Just like air strikes turned weddings and funerals into funerals and more funerals, this was also the reality with suicide attacks, with roadside bombs. And what I then basically termed it as the new frontline, which was basically everywhere for Afghans. And nowhere really felt safe. And we saw over the years, you know, that that did not stop the Taliban. That really did not prevent the Taliban from becoming stronger. And every time there was an air strike, every time their were like 50 civilians killed, the Taliban were actually able, in some cases, to recruit 500 from those communities.

CO: On the issue of this lack of hope, that people were losing hope. But at the same time, so many young people, especially in the big cities, especially in Kabul, did see opportunities. Their girls did go to school. Women did go to university. There were programs for those. And so many Canadians listening to this are wondering, was it all for not? Was there... was there nothing that the loss of treasure and life that we spent in that country, was... did nothing come of it, especially when you spoke to so many young people? You saw that 9/11 generation. Did they benefit at all from these efforts?

BS: I would like to think that the West and the Afghan government's legacy of... of changing Afghanistan for the better was there, especially with, you know, the new generation of Afghans who are educated, who freedoms, especially women and girls. Today, look, what has happened, all the gains that people sacrificed for a lot. The Taliban have introduced new measures, which basically means that coeducation cannot take place. If it does have to take place, there has to be a curtain separating male and female. And a lot of the Afghan women are either hiding, fearing for their lives in Kabul and across much of Afghanistan, or they have been forced to leave. And to me, it does look like an entire generation of Afghans, who had dreams, who had visions, who had, you know, leadership skills, who had language skills, are all basically failed miserably. Not only by the Afghan government, by their own politicians. But a deep sense of betrayal by the international community. And I feel so heartbroken and so sorry for a young Afghan women and men, who despite all the challenges and hardships, their dreams have been shattered, their futures are ruined. And I don't know if or when they will be able to start their lives that could be called normal again?

CO: I wonder what will happen to people like Fawzia Koofi? We spoke with her last year. She... she still had hope that it was possible to have a negotiated arrangement with the Taliban. Last year, she was part of those talks in Doha. And she was there after she was targeted for assassination and she survived. I want to play a little bit of what Fawzia Koofi said to at that time guest host Helen Mann as she was recuperating from that attack.

SOUNDCLIP

HELEN MANN: Ms. Koofi, how are you feeling today.

FAWZIA KOOFI: huh, I have an injury in my right hand. And they just removed the bullet two, three days ago. Still, it damaged the bone and it damaged the tissues. So pain, a lot of pain.

HM: Tell us how it all unfolded?

FK: I was in a car with my daughter. Two Corolla cars were chasing us from a certain part of the road. One of the Corolla cars actually blocked our road, and then the other one started shooting. After a few seconds, I saw the bleeding and then I saw that my hand cannot move. Why me? I have done nothing wrong to this country. I have always tried to be an agent of good will for my country. You know, why did I do wrong that these people hate me to the extent that they want to kill me?

CO: That was Afghan peace negotiator Fawzia Koofi speaking with us after she was shot at last year and survived. And as you know, so many others like Fawzia did not survive, and have sacrificed their lives hoping that Afghanistan would be a different place. What becomes of them now?

BS: I bumped into Ms Koofi in Doha, in Qatar. We were evacuated, so we had to wait there before we came to Canada. And the first five, six seconds of looking at each other suddenly explained the story. We were heartbroken. We were sad. You know, we were mourning the loss of a country, but also state institutions, institutions that we Afghans took pride in. Because remember, we did not have a country. We did not have a state throughout the 90s. And we knew what that meant. But she was also someone who was carrying the dreams of millions of Afghans on her shoulders.

CO: I’ll give a full disclosure here that in the past weeks since Afghanistan fell to the Taliban, I have been part of a group of concerned journalists here in Canada helping others, some... many of the people you're describing to find their way out, people, as you know, going from guest house to guest house in hiding as they look for the corridor that you were able to find in order to leave your country. And the stories are heartbreaking. People, all of them, believed that they were part of a new Afghanistan. And they are now finding their way out. They don't see a future. What now becomes of Afghanistan?

BS: Well, we would like to definitely think of Afghanistan as our home that will always live in our hearts. Our family, our relatives are there. And it is my hope that someday, we will be able to go back to a different Afghanistan. To an Afghanistan where everyone could contribute. To an Afghanistan where girls could go back to school. To an Afghanistan where we could have a freedom of speech, something that we sacrificed a lot for over the last 20 years. But until that happens, we must also remember that people in Afghanistan will rely on us because of the exodus, because of the mass migration of the Afghan media family. We have to make sure that Afghan journalism stays alive. And it does break my heart to know that thousands of Afghans still, including some of my colleagues from the Afghan media, are hiding inside their homes and apartments. And they have simply not been able to get out, you know? So I hope that the international community and everyone can still preserve this generation of Afghans and evacuate them safe and sound. Because those are people with dreams. Those are people with commitment towards Afghanistan.

CO: And I think many of the journalists you're speaking of are finding their way out of the country, as are so many other really talented, educated, strong Afghans who are now leaving. I'm glad you're safe in Canada, Bilal, with your family. And I hope that your daughter finds a life here. And I do hope that someday you're able to go back to your country. Thank you so much for speaking with us.

BS: Thank you. It's good to be with you. Thank you.

CH: Bilal Sarwary is a journalist who recently fled Afghanistan. He was in Toronto. He is not alone in leaving the country. Carol has been working with an ad hoc group trying to get about 200 Afghan journalists and their families to safety here in Canada. You can find more on that story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: folk]

Part 3: Afghanistan Documentary

Afghanistan Documentary

CH: You're listening to our special coverage of the situation in Afghanistan. The Afghan people, of course, were the ones most deeply affected by the conflict -- thousands of civilians died, and thousands more lost loved ones. And the Afghan people are the ones who will now live with the aftermath of the war. But the war also took a toll on people here in Canada -- especially the soldiers sent to fight in the initial combat mission and in the training and rebuilding efforts. More than 40,000 Canadians served in Afghanistan. 158 were killed. Thousands more were wounded -- physically and psychologically. In the summer of 2011, almost a decade after the war began, Canada ended its combat mission in Afghanistan. As the troops returned, “As It Happens” examined the Kandahar mission with this documentary.

SOUNDCLIP

JEFF DOUGLAS: Canada's soldiers are finally coming home. The first wave of combat troops withdrawing from Afghanistan arrived at CFB Valcartier near Quebec City this week. And by the end of July, all 1,900 will have returned to their home bases. In their place, several hundred soldiers will be deployed to train and assist the Afghans as they take back control of the country. But those Canadian troops will not be fighting. Tonight, we look back at the Kandahar mission through the “As It Happens” archives. We will hear from the soldiers who did the fighting, and their families, and from regular Afghans living through the war. We begin in the summer of 2005. Until then, the Canadian military had been stationed in Kabul, which was relatively secure. Kandahar province would be very different. But as the troops from the Provincial Reconstruction Team, or the PRT, began to arrive, there was little sense in Canada of the danger that lay ahead. In July. Guest host Maureen Brosnahan spoke with the commander leading the first arrivals, lieutenant colonel John Weitz.

MAUREEN BROSNHAN: Lieutenant Colonel, as you can well appreciate, most Canadians really don't have a good picture in their mind of exactly where you are and what you're... what you're working at. Can you give us a description of what Kandahar looks like?

JOHN WEITZ: Sure. There's a few locations that we're working on in Kandahar. One is on the Kandahar airfield. And then the other PRT set itself that we're working on is in an industrial area of town. And in order to get there, we do go through various city streets. And I'd say my largest impression is just brown. There really is not the green that we're used to back home in Canada, but really an overwhelming sense of brown and dust and sand.

MB: What sort of a reception are you getting as you're coming in there from the... from the local community and the people there?

JW: Well, so far, I'd say the reception from the local community has been very positive. Certainly, the people on the street are friendly. We get a lot of waves. And I think that they're generally aware of why we're here and what the Provincial Reconstruction Team can do for them. So the reception has been very positive.

MB: Now, we've been hearing a lot about concerns about the Canadians moving into this region of Afghanistan and that there are larger issues of security issues because of the Taliban having used and worked in that area. What sort of special security measures are you having to take?

JW: Well, the troops here have all been through rigorous training back home and are cognisant of where they are. They're always on the watch. And thankfully, to this date, we've had no problems. And I hope that it stays that way.

MB: Lieutenant Colonel, thank you very much for your time today.

JW: You're absolutely welcome Maureen. Thank you.

CO: That was lieutenant colonel John Weitz, speaking with guest host of, As It Happens, Maureen Brosnhan at the start of the Canadian mission in Kandahar. Of course, there were problems. Before long, suicide bombers began to target Canadian soldiers, who were killed and injured. The ramp ceremony where coffins were carried on to planes in the Kandahar airfield was becoming a familiar, solemn ritual for the troops, and for Canadians watching from a distance. On January 16th, 2006, a suicide bomber hit a military convoy near Kandahar City. The attack wounded three soldiers, and it killed Canadian diplomat Glyn Berry.

JD: A few days later, hundreds of mourners gathered in London for Glyn Berry's funeral. Among them were his wife, Valerie, and his sons, Reese and Gareth. And here is part of Gareth Berry's eulogy to his father delivered that day.

GARETH BERRY: Whenever I mentioned my dad was going to southern Afghanistan, people first asked me if he was army. When I mentioned he was actually a diplomat working as the political face of the reconstruction effort in Kandahar, they asked me if he was crazy? [some chuckling in the background. I'd beam with pride and say, well, maybe just a bit. My dad was a man with a strong sense of principles. He felt that Afghanistan had been wronged by Western governments who had forgotten it after the Soviet withdrawal. He felt that the Afghan people had been wronged by those waging war. And deplored the legacy of mines and orphans. In his word, Afghanistan was the right war, and what happens there affects us. Whether in terms of terrorism, drug trade or simply belief in making amends. Our last one-on-one conversation was a few weeks ago when he was here for Christmas, after a few beers, some wine, several more ports. He talked of being able in this role to change the way southern Afghanistan was viewed by our governments and being able to have some influence on Western policy. Kandahar was not Kabul and was much more subtle than typically thought. It had a different sort of government in the South, in some ways based more on consensus and negotiation than our own democracies. The issues were very different. The solutions not always obvious. He talked of how important it was to gain the personal trust of local leaders, something he felt the PRT was accomplishing. He also let down his guard and showed me the fear he felt going back. And made me promise [beginning to cry] that Reese and I would take care of my mom always. David Sproule, Canada's ambassador to Afghanistan, came over to our house yesterday to share memories of my dad. One thing he said, and that I've heard as well from other people was that at times of great distress, like when they'd be riding their flak jackets to the back of their trucks, my dad would start talking of his family. It comforts me greatly to think we were with him at the very end, giving him strength when he needed it. He was a man who felt profound passion for his work and the people he met, who loved every minute of his time out there. He was a man who was convinced he was doing the right thing. And who, hopefully, was able to change the world, if ever so slightly in the right direction. And that man is my dad. I hope we can make him proud and happy as he made us.

CO: That was Gareth Berry paying tribute to his father, Glyn Berry, at the Canadian diplomat's funeral in 2006. Stephen Harper was elected a few weeks after Berry's death. His first trip as prime minister was a visit to the troops, making it clear that the war in Afghanistan was Canada's fight, a war he felt was just and a war he wanted to win. But by then, many Canadians were beginning to ask hard questions about what our troops were doing in Afghanistan, whether the mission was the right one and whether it was worth the cost?

JD: That fall, the Canadian military led an effort called Operation Medusa to push the Taliban out of Kandahar. The insurgents were driven off the battlefield. The operation was costly, both for the troops and for the local civilian population. Some lost their homes, their crops, even their loved ones. But many Afghans were pleased to see the Taliban in retreat. And in the midst of that operation, Carol spoke to an Afghan relief worker in Kandahar City.

CO: What are you hearing about what's happening in the countryside since Operation Medusa, the Canadian-led combat operation?

GUEST: The operation is positive. And many insurgents, Taliban insurgents, killed in this operation everywhere in the open areas and the schools and some houses, even under bridges.

CO: If you say there's been a lot of fighting around schools and bridges, you… you... was there a fair bit of damage done to the infrastructure of the Panjwai district?

GUEST Yeah, yeah. According to the reports of some of our staff, many buildings are down because Taliban tried to hide themselves.

CO: Are people angry about what happened in Panjwai district?

GUEST: No, no, no. I'm 100 per cent sure that the people are very happy. The people are really happy with this military operation because we are not happy with the Taliban. They lost their houses, animals and some family members, but we are happy with this military operation.

CO: Thank you very much for speaking with us.

GUEST: OK. Thank you for calling.

CO: Bye-bye.

JD: Operation Medusa was considered a victory for the Canadian-led forces. And it reinforced to Canadians that our troops were not simply neutral peacekeepers. Brigadier general David Fraser was the Canadian soldier who oversaw the operation as commander of the NATO mission in southern Afghanistan. After he returned from his eight-month tour of duty, he visited the "As It Happens" studio to explain what he thought had been accomplished.

CO: General Fraser, first of all, thank you very much for coming in.

DAVID FRASER: Thank you. It's great to be here.

CO: Now, the last time we talked was actually in Kandahar at the airfield at the very beginning of your tour. And you were optimistic that you would be able to put the stamp of NATO on that mission. That it was... that taking over from the U.S.-led Operation Enduring Freedom was in the past and that it was going to be a new mission under you. Do you feel that in the time that you were there that you did change that mission?

DF: I think I did change the mission. And I measure that change from talking to Afghans. Governor Asadullah Khalid, governor of Kandahar, when I first met him, when you and I first met, he led with a gun. When I left, he was leading with a pen and a cell phone. That's progress. Governor Arman in Zabul province was building schools. He was into the northern parts of the province, which we had never been there before. We built 140-odd kilometres of roads, 100,000 metres of new canals. We elected 400 community councils. So we actually moved the yardsticks a little bit. But I would say just a little bit.

CO: On the combat level, though, on that side of it with... including Operation Medusa, which was the extraordinary operation that was under your command and the joint command of NATO. This was the most combat, the most fighting, the most casualties that there had been since the beginning of the war in 2001. How pivotal was that? How pivotal was Operation Medusa?

DF: Operation Medusa was important not only to the city of Kandahar because the Taliban were threatening Kandahar. The Taliban wanted to demonstrate the weakness of the Afghan government. And the Taliban wanted to take on the international community. The Taliban lost. So it was a pivotal moment in the history of Afghanistan. It was an Afghan-led operation. It is a real success story for the Afghans of taking the fight to the Taliban.

CO: You lost a lot of soldiers, a lot of Canadians, about 32 Canadians during your time. I don't need to ask you how that... that is as a soldier to have to deal with that. But as a commander, as the person in charge, how difficult was it for you to deal with the numbers of soldiers that you had to send home in coffins?

DF: I remember the number one. One too many. One soldier dying is too many. One Afghan dying is too many. And everyone was special. I wrote to every family when it happened. I wrote to every contingent who lost soldiers. Because it was personal. It has doubled my resolve to deal with the issue because it is a worthy mission to help people who are less fortunate than us, who are being intimidated, coerced, brutalized by a regime that has and acknowledges no rules out there. It is a dangerous thing that we are doing. And it is the one thing as a commander that is the hardest thing to deal with.

CO: I saw you a few times during those... those announcements, and you looked as though your heart would break. As I must say, it looks like it's going to break right now.

DF: Not break. It's just the tough part of the mission. I lost four guys from my own team, and that's hard. But, you know, we sent the Canadian Forces over there. You're not sending the Boy Scouts. You're sending the Canadian Forces into a situation that is dealing with a regime that will kill anybody out there, man, woman and child. And they deserve better than that -- the Afghan people who are looking for hope and opportunity. And we're there to help them.

CO: General Fraser, thank you very much for coming in.

DF: Thank you. Great to be here.

CO: Bye-bye.

DF: Bye. Brigadier general David Fraser speaking to Carol in January 2007. Canadians would soon become aware of other difficult facts about the military operation in Afghanistan. News broke that the Canadian military was handing detainees over to Afghan authorities with virtually no monitoring of how they were treated in custody. Graeme Smith of the Globe and Mail interviewed 30 prisoners. He spoke to "As It Happens" about what he discovered.

CO: Graeme, give me a sense of some of the stories you've heard from the detainees that you've interviewed?

GRAEME SMITH: They're long, painful stories. And the immediate beginning of those stories is always fairly innocuous. You know, I met the Canadians and then they put me in the back of their armoured vehicle. They talked to me for a few hours. Nothing bad happened. It's what happens after that that got me interested. Later on, people are usually handed off to either the Afghan National Army, the Afghan National Police or to the National Directorate for Security, the secret police. And all three of those institutions generally treat them badly. You know, some less so than others. I mean, the Afghan military is generally fairly disciplined. What I heard about them is that they beat people with rifle butts, which, considering the intensity of the conflict here in Afghanistan, is, you know, not as bad as it could be. But then, you know, there are all kinds of other people who said that really horrible things happen to them in police and NDS custody. People said they were electrocuted. People said that they were beaten. And all this happened in sort of long, arduous odysseys of torture. That these things would happen for six months at a time.

CO: Those detainees that you spoke with who considered that they had suffered an injustice, did they blame the Afghan authorities or Canadian military?

GS: A bit of both, really. Because, you know, a lot of people who are picked up by the Canadians, they think that the Canadians should not have picked them up in the first place. And that even though the Canadians were, you know, nice and polite and gentle, that the fact that they then handed them over to torturers doesn't really endear them to the Canadians at all. The Canadians are… and the foreign troops, in general, because most Afghans don't make a distinction, are viewed as being very powerful, generally fairly well-mannered and also a bit stupid. That they pick up the wrong people for the wrong reasons.

CO: Graeme Smith, thanks for speaking with us.

GS: Thank you.

CO: Bye-bye.

JD: That's Graeme Smith of the Globe and Mail, speaking to Carol in April of 2007.

CO: When reports of the detainee abuses first broke, and as the war continued to grind on, Afghans began to grow more disenchanted with the foreign troops and with their own government. Here is what some Afghans living in Kabul said to, "As It Happens" about the NATO-led mission in their country as it entered its seventh year.

MAN: It's quite funny, you know, if you... if you see NATO and things, they are doing only military activities. They have done nothing for reconstruction. If they are doing any projects in the provinces in the region, they are doing it for their own purposes so that they can have the way that they see win the hearts and minds of the people. Well, it's like sort of useless. I would not say the Taliban were good, but people who are feeling that they are secure. And after NATO, people are scared. And, actually, for myself and my village and even for my province, there have been no changes. It's all just sadness, as always.

MAN#2: I am from western province, Laghman. If we compare the reconstruction process with the money which the foreign countries donated with our country, it is not acceptable. Because, you know, if you saw just Kabul, there is no electricity still now. During six years, we don't have a dam of water to produce their power. I think it is not acceptable for the people because Afghanistan get a lot of money during six year. But there is no change in the life of ordinary people.

CO: That was two Afghans living in Kabul speaking to "As It Happens" about the presence of foreign troops in their country. And that was in October of 2007. Although the Taliban had suffered serious setbacks, the insurgents remain tenacious and continuing their campaign of suicide bombings with support from allies across the border in Pakistan. In 2008, parliament passed a motion to end the combat mission by 2011, but the troops remained in harm's way, which was made painfully clear on the day that the 100th Canadian soldier died in Afghanistan. In December 2008. One mother marked that milestone on "As It Happens." Sherry Clark's son, Joel Wiebe, had died the previous year in a roadside bombing. After that, she kept a diary, and she read an entry, for the record.

SHERRY CLARK: Well, every time another soldier is lost, my heart breaks. It doesn't matter if it's one or 50 or 100, although each of those numbers carry a significant emphasis on the loss, especially to the nation. But most especially to us families, it feels like a thousand losses. When Joel, corporal Stephen Bouzan and sergeant Christos Karrigiannis were killed, the number of fallen soldiers had risen to 60. Since then, each and every time Canada loses another soldier, we're taken back to that very moment. I relive that knock on the door and seeing the uniformed soldiers from my bedroom window, hearing the commanding officer say Joel's gone. He isn't coming back. You remember watching the ramp ceremony in Kandahar on TV and seeing the pain in the faces of some of Joel's closest friends as they carry their friend's casket to begin the journey back to Canada. I think back to talking to the media, trying to explain to people what kind of man Joel was and how much we had lost as a family and as a nation. And how we struggled to stay strong so Joel would be as proud of us as we were of him. I remember travelling to Trenton for the repatriation ceremony and thinking my heart would stop right at that very moment Joel's casket was carried past us and placed into the waiting hearse. I remember travelling the Highway of Heroes and having such mixed emotions, of never being so sad, yet so proud to be Canadian. As we witnessed thousands of people who had taken time out from their day to pay their respects to our fallen three heroes. I remember the memorial service and the hundreds of people who attended. And I remembered that long drive from the church to the cemetery, wanting to jump out of the limo because I couldn't breathe, and I didn't think I could do this anymore. I remember burying my son, my youngest child, and accepting the memorial cross and one of two flags that draped my son's casket during his journey home. And then it hits you. Another family will be walking that same horrendous road. Another family will be faced with similar experiences and a profound and deep sense of loss. So for me, whether it's one, 50 or 100, each fallen soldier brings more sadness, pain, sorrow and anger. That will never change for us no matter what the numbers are.

JD: Sherry Clark is the mother of private Joel Wiebe, who was killed while serving in Afghanistan. She spoke on "As It Happens" on the day the number of fallen soldiers reached 100. Not long after that grim occasion, the Canadian Forces received some backup in the form of a troop surge ordered by President Barack Obama. There have since been enough gains on the ground in Afghanistan for Prime Minister Stephen Harper to travel there again and to declare that the country is no longer a threat to the world. But it is clear that the conflict in Afghanistan is not over and that it will not be won on the battlefield. After the prime minister's trip there last month, we spoke with Sir Sherard Cowper-Coles, who was, until last year, Britain's ambassador to Afghanistan.

CO: Sir Sherard, as you heard, our prime minister declared that Afghanistan is no longer a threat to the world, and he said that the mission had been a great success. Would you agree with that?

SHERARD COWPER-COLES: Well, I'm sure the brave Canadian Forces, Princess Patricia's Light Infantry, the Royal Canadian Regiment, I've seen them all, have been extremely courageous and professional in delivering local and temporary success. The question really is what happens, Carol, where we are not and when we are not? And David Miliband and I asked the Afghan local government minister how long the Afghan central authorities would stay in Helmand Province after British forces left? And... and he got the answer, 24 hours. And I'm afraid, you know, what we've done in Kandahar and Helmand has certainly pushed back the Taliban to some extent, but what will happen after we leave is the narco mafia will take over again and there'll be a nasty battle between the Taliban and the narco mafia.

CO: But I guess the issue here is that I don't think anyone is saying, including our prime minister, that there's no longer a threat to the Afghan people by the Taliban, but that there is no longer a threat to us.

SCC: Yes, I mean, the point is the Taliban are Afghan people. They are conservative, religious nationalists of a particularly nasty kind. I mean, they're repugnant to us in the West. But for many ordinary Pashtuns in the south and the east, they’re lesser of two evils. They'd rather have rough, fair, predictable Taliban justice, particularly as the Taliban in opposition have moderated their views than the depredations of the Afghan police and a corrupt Afghan state. The only way this dispute is going to be ended is by the U.N. and the U.S. refereeing a new Afghan political settlement, which brings in all the internal parties and all the regional parties Pakistan, India, China, Russia, Iran. America has got to learn to talk to its enemies and deal them into the game. If, for political reasons, our political leaders need to declare success in order to justify the withdrawal of the troops, that's fine. But real success will come only when there's a proper negotiation.

CO: Sir Sherard, thank you for your insights.

CH: Britain's former ambassador to Afghanistan, Sir Sherard Cowper-Coles, speaking with Carol in 2011 -- when that documentary first ran on this program, to mark the end of Canada's combat mission in Kandahar. You can find more on our special coverage of the conflict in Afghanistan on our website at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: folk]

Zorba The Greek Composer Obit

CH: For Greek composer and workers' rights activist Mikis Theodorakis, politics could not be separated from art. As he told The New York Times in 1970 -- "Always I have lived with two sounds: one political, one musical." And those two strains, sounding together, carried him to the highest highs and the lowest lows of his life. But even as he was jailed and exiled for his politics, the music kept coming. Mikis Theodorakis died last week in Athens. He was 96. His compositions first gained international recognition in the 1960s, with his scores for the films "Zorba the Greek" and "Z". By then, in Greece, he was already well-known as a prolific producer of symphonies, operas, anthems of resistance and more. Not to mention as a critic of the right wing. When a military junta seized power in the late '60s, Mr. Theodorakis was jailed, and his music banned. He and his family were banished to a remote village where, despite hardship, he continued to create music. Several years later, the family was exiled to France where Mr. Theodorakis used his music and his international profile to campaign for Greek democracy and an end to military rule. Days after the junta was eventually ousted, he returned to his home country -- and the Greek airwaves were once again filled with his songs.

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September 06, 2021 Episode Transcript

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