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The AIH Transcript For September 01, 2021

[hosts]Peter Armstrong, Chris Howden[/hosts]

PETER ARMSTRONG: Hello, I'm Peter Armstrong, sitting in for Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is “As It Happens”.

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Prologue

CH: Tonight:

PA: Wallet, keys, vaccine, passport. People in Quebec must now show proof of vaccination to do dozens of formerly run-of-the mill activities, creating what our guest calls an ethical minefield.

CH: Loved and lost. An Afghan Canadian who's been working to focus Ottawa's attention on the dangers facing Afghanistan's Hazara minority says some of his relatives made it out -- but others have been impossible to reach.

PA: Beside the top of the world. An Arctic researcher explains how he and his colleagues accidentally discovered what they believe is the northernmost island on Earth.

CH:Choice words. As a strict law banning most abortions goes into effect in Texas, we revisit our conversation with a Dallas high school valedictorian who used her speech to denounce the bill.

PA: Horns of a dilemma. A 66-million-year-old Triceratops fossil nicknamed "Big John" is up for private sale -- and paleontologists like our guest are up in arms about what that means for her field.

CH: And…you must re-member this. The Welsh flag is adorned with a proud red dragon -- but an online petition insists it would be prouder if that dragon had male genitals.

CH: “As It Happens,” the Wednesday edition. Radio that's sure someone invited you to sign. You should probably check your junk mail.

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Part 1: QC Vaccine Passports, Northernmost Island, Triceratops Skeleton For Sale, Welsh Penis Petition

QC Vaccine Passports

Guest: Kerry Bowman

CH: Starting today, Quebecers who want to eat in a restaurant, go to the gym, or see a concert -- will have to show their papers. Specifically, they'll be required to show digital or physical proof that they've been immunized against COVID-19. A similar requirement was announced by Premier Doug Ford in Ontario today. And British Columbia and Manitoba will soon follow suit. Provincial governments say it's an essential measure to fight the fourth wave. But some are wary of the ethical implications of mandatory vaccine passports. Kerry Bowman is a bioethicist at the University of Toronto. That's where we reached him.

PA: Mr. Bowman, how big of an ethical minefield is Quebec entering today by requiring vaccine passports?

KERRY BOWMAN: It's a huge ethical minefield. And look, I'm not saying it's not justified. We're in a very difficult situation with Delta. What I don't know yet about the Ontario data... and Quebec is a little more clear. Is when the QR codes come, will there be any element of data storage or surveillance to that? I don't know the answer to that, but there could be. And if there is, there's another ethical concern there. And, you know, the big one is really freedom of movement. And look, freedom of movement really within a mature democratic society, freedom of movement is... is really an inherent part of how we live. And we're now laying down infrastructure through many provinces and throughout our country to really divide people.

PA: I want to, if I can, dig into the Quebec example. What might this mean for the lives of people who, for whatever reason, have decided not to get vaccinated?

KB: Well, would mean their lives are much more restricted. And, you know, and that leads to, you know, an injustice. It leads to a bitterness as well. You know, and I would also think, you know, one of our strengths nationally, and we all know we've stumbled with this pandemic several times. But one of our strengths is we've mostly been cohesive on... on... on... on our strategy towards the... towards the pandemic. We now run the risk of further attacks and bitterness. When you look at the fact that, you know, you can't go for a coffee indoors, but you could go to a barber or salon, right?

PA: Right.

KB: You wouldn't need, if I understand correctly, you wouldn't need a vaccine passport to do that. That kind of incoherence is not going to be lost on people.

PA: Right.

KB: And that's going to erode trust as well.

PA: I want to play a clip from CBC Toronto's Morning Show, "Metro Morning," this morning.

KB: Sure.

PA: This is part of an interview with a woman who was interviewed at one of those pop-up vaccine clinics, who still hadn't decided whether or not to get the shot. Here's a clip.

SOUNDCLIP

WOMAN: Yeah, there's a lot of, basically, fear because what I see in social media about people having extreme side effects. I notice that it's being enforced. I notice the officer says by September 13th, they have to be vaccinated. So I'm kind of concerned.

REPORTER: And where do you work?

WOMAN: Yeah, the Rogers Centre. If there... they have rules where you could once you go to work, you check-in. And then, once you're clear, you can come back the next day. So every day you have to take the test, right? But my concern is, are they going to just enforce it at a certain point? So what do you do? You have to take it whether you're scared or not. Well, I don't speak for every African-American, but I must say, like a high percentage of the African-American community population are not taking it. Not because just the fear, because it seems to them and to me also that it's been taking away our human rights.

PA: What do you make of what you just heard? And specifically, the reasons that... that... for which she's still hesitant about getting the vaccine?

KB Yeah, well, they're actually... they're very realistic reasons. And the data is very clear. And I myself have worked in the health care system for decades. And there clearly is structural and systemic barriers and racism for certain groups being African-Americans, African Canadians. There's no question about that. And that's evidence-based. So those people are going to be... people that have been discriminated against are going to be far more hesitant to get the vaccine. You know, I would also say that people say, well, you know, we're not... we're still preserving autonomy. You know, people don't have to get it. We're not putting it in anyone's arm. I would argue that's actually not true because I literally know of people that are now taking the vaccine only to protect their livelihoods because they're raising children or something. So, you know, and again, my question is, is this justified? And I hope it is. I think we're actually making some very big steps here provincially and nationally, not small steps. I hope this really brings our numbers down very quickly.

PA: You know, we know, though, that it's safe. We know that it saves lives. So is this worth it to... to try, as you say, to... to leave the carrot behind and move more towards the stick?

KB: Yeah. I hate the carrot and stick thing. You know… [both laugh] You know, carrot's a manipulation. And a stick is animal cruelty. It's actually the worst metaphor in the world [PA chuckles] to use in terms of public health. But... but having said that, you know, you know, if it's really, really going to help. And we can find a way to do it fairly. And, you know, whether we like it or not, it's here. And the question is, how do we do it fairly? But I think we have to be really concerned about, you know, you know, listening to the person that we just heard. And also, you know, the unvaccinated, I'm not trying to make any excuses for them. I'm pro-vaccine. You know, I'm pro-vaccine. I'm fully vaccinated myself. But, you know, they didn't cause this... this pandemic either. And they're really, really being targeted. And some of them will be vaccinated. They just haven't been ready yet. So, you know, we will see. I would argue it began in the United States under the Biden administration and spread north very quickly that vaccine mandates, passports, certificates, whatever you choose to call them, are the way forward. And we have jumped on board. And, you know, the question now is how do we make this as fair and as useful and as effective a process as we possibly can?

PA: Figuring out our way through this, though, requires nuance and subtlety. As you say, as we heard from that woman, do you think the images and the video we're seeing of angry anti-vaxxers protesting at restaurants, yelling at the prime minister, do you think that can drown out people who have a more nuanced and a more subtle argument about their concerns about the vaccine?

KB: I do think exactly that. I do think that we need to paint anyone that's not vaccinated as some kind of an extremist. And, you know, this is not a useful approach. It's a broad array of belief systems. And so I think we have to do everything we can to encourage that to come forward. I think there's been a lot of progressive initiatives that are cropping up all over the country and... and, you know, everywhere in terms of bringing vaccines to people. And there's a lot of positive happening here. So I do hope we are going to turn a corner with some of these initiatives.

PA: Well, it's certainly good to get this perspective and to try to focus a little bit on... on the nuance and the subtleties. So we really appreciate your voice on that.

KB: Take care, Peter. Bye-bye.

CH: Kerry Bowman is a bioethicist at the University of Toronto. He's in Toronto. And you can find more on that story on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca.

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Northernmost Island

Guest: Martin Breum

CH: It's hard to find something you have no idea is missing in the first place. So it's surprising and confusing when you do find it. A group of Danish and Swiss scientists set out looking for Oodaaq Island -- a strip of land off the coast of Greenland. Instead, they unintentionally discovered an island much further away. Which they now believe is the world's northernmost Island. Martin Breum is a journalist and an author focusing on Arctic affairs. He was one of the people involved in the expedition. We reached him in Aalborg, Denmark.

PA: Mr. Breum, what was that moment like when you found out you had been on an undiscovered island?

MARTIN BREUM: Well, it was fantastic. This was a great surprise. I mean, this gentleman, he's a professor, and he's responsible for taking care of the data of all these new things up in Greenland for the government. So he knows what he's talking about. And he had been asking about our coordinates. And I wondered, why does he want the coordinates? Because he had them already. And then it turns out that he compared the data and found out we were on a new island. And he said unequivocally, and he had no doubts, that you were on a new island, which is the northernmost island in the world presently. He was... he was a bit of a surprise.

PA: I bet! Now, OK, so let's go back quickly and walk us through this. Where... where did you think... when you landed in... on the helicopter, where did you think you were?

MB: We all believed very firmly that we had found what we were looking for. We were looking for Oodaaq Island, which we knew or believed to be the northernmost island in the world. And we had been really, really looking forward to this. You must imagine how far we had travelled already. So the fact that the helicopter could go out there, there wasn't any fog. There was no wind. The weather was perfect. It's not often like that in these parts. And we had travelled for days on end. And we only had this one opportunity because this was not our main purpose. We were there for climate science and all sorts of things. So this was the opportunity. And the weather was perfect. And we landed. And we believed very firmly that we had found Oodaaq Island, the most northern island in the world. And we were so happy.

PA: And if I've got it right, you set up a drone and took a picture of the island, which I'm looking at now. It's a scant little thing. Can you just describe it for us?

MB: Yes, it's icy, it's dirty, it's muddy, it's cold, and it's very charming because it's... it's... it's there, but it's not very significant. It's perhaps 30-by-50 metres. It's covered partly by ice. It's gravel. And it's a lot of yellowish mud. You must imagine some very shallow water, lots of ice and broken water. And here we are, and we want samples because we're scientists. I'm not a scientist. But there were scientists who wanted earth samples or mud samples. So we were out there scraping with a spoon and putting into Ziploc bags and collecting stuff for... for scientific analysis afterwards to figure out what kind of island is Oodaaq Island because that was the one we believed we were on.

PA: And again, from that picture, it's surrounded by ice. If it had been a little snowier, a little icier, there's no way you would have seen it. How did this one even come to... to be exposed in the way that it was?

MB: Well, exactly. You're perfectly right. In the wintertime, this would probably be impossible also because the weather is so bad there all the time. But what happens up there is that when the sea ice is broken into little pieces or great pieces, the wind and the currents, they push these pieces of ice around. And this bulldozes the sea bottom. It's soft at the bottom, so gravel and rocks and mud is pushed up above the surface of... of the shallow water. And then it forms an island. And more ice gets stuck there and pushes more gravel up. Or the reverse happens; it pushes the gravel back into the sea as so much of this island will probably disappear again in... in a period of time that nobody knows how long it will be there. And several other islands have disappeared.

PA: Now, so you get there, you take some pictures, you send up the drone, you collect some soil samples, as you say, but you're in a helicopter. So you've got the very precise instrument panel telling you exactly where you are. What happens now? You get back and start to file this away. And you get word from one of the other scientists saying, well, hold on a second, I think you might have been somewhere different.

MB: Exactly. This gentleman, the professor at the Danish Technical University, calls and asks for the coordinates. We send it to him, and then he explains to us that we were actually on an island that was not the previously known Oodaaq Island, which has probably disappeared into the sea, but on a new entity, which is only 800 metres further into the sea than the other one, the old one. So the difference is not very large, which is probably why we didn't notice it on the GPS when we were there. We were so busy just being there, taking pictures and making sure that, you know, everything was recorded and we got the soil samples. So it was only afterwards that we had this comparison between the GPS coordinates that made us aware that we were actually on a new island.

PA: Now, there was a time that an expedition like yours that found an island like this would... would get to name it or have some role in what it was to be called. Do you get any say in how this is going to be recognized?

MB: No and yes. [PA chuckles] No, because in the old days, as you say, we could have named that island. We could have planted a flag --

PA: [chuckling] Right.

MB: Probably and named it after the head of the expedition. But today, Greenland has a council for place names. So any new feature in Greenland, if it has to have a name, this... it's the Council of Place names in Nuuk, the capital of Greenland, that will decide. But we will probably make a suggestion on behalf of the expedition. But the suggestion will follow the rules of the council in Nuuk, which is that it has to be in the Greenlandic language. It has to follow the Greenlandic sort of linguistic traditions, and you cannot just throw up a name of some living person.

PA: And just one last question before you go. Did... did you swim off this island? Have I got that right?

MB: Well, of course, some of us had to celebrate [PA chuckles] this particular moment. So we did take time off some of us to a very, very brief swim.

PA: I bet it was brief!

MB: In swim gear that we brought with us for that particular purpose. If we found Oodaaq Island, or if we found something up there, we wanted to swim. So, yes, we did swim. Some of us.

PA: Well, there you go. You swam off the edge of the world's northernmost island. That's a pretty cool accomplishment.

MB: Thank you very much for your interest, Peter.

PA: [chuckling] For sure. Wonderful to speak with you. Thank you for this.

CH: Martin Breum is a journalist and an author focusing on Arctic affairs. He was part of an expedition that discovered the world's northernmost island. He's in Aalborg, Denmark. And for more on this story, visit our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

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Triceratops Skeleton For Sale

Guest: Jessica Theodor

CH: For a measly 1.8 million dollars, "Big John" could be just the piece you need to complete your living room. As long as you don't mind his giant horns and see-through torso. "Big John" is a 66-million-year-old triceratops fossil. At eight metres long, he's the biggest one ever discovered. Now, "Big John" was found in South Dakota in 2014. But right now, you can find the dinosaur on display at an auction house in Paris -- on sale to the highest bidder. Which is great news is you have a pile of cash lying around and a very large front door. But bad news for paleontologists like Jessica Theodor. She's a professor in the University of Calgary's Biological Sciences department and the President of the Society of Vertebrate Paleontology. We reached Professor Theodor in Calgary.

PA: Professor Theodor, what do you think when you hear about a dinosaur skeleton like “Big John” going on sale like this?

JESSICA THEODOR: I think, oh, no, not again. This is happening with alarming frequency to those of us members of the Society of Vertebrate Palaeontology.

PA: And what are your... what are your main concerns just so people can understand?

JT: So our concern is that every time one of these big skeletons goes up for auction, two things happen. One of which is the prices go up. And the second of which is usually that specimen is lost to science. It goes away into private hands, not into an organization that we consider to be in the public trust. So a museum where the specimen can be cared for and made accessible to scientists on an ongoing permanent basis. And the reason this is a big deal is that every time that happens that they're sold into private hands, that specimen effectively disappears. So any research that might have been ongoing or that we might want to do, we can't keep it going.

PA: So that could really then limit future research and your ability to sort of better understand, you know, because I think a lot of people would say, what do you mean? These things have been around for millions of years. We've been studying them forever. We're... you know, what's the big deal of one going into private hands?

JT: So the thing is, yes, it's one, but it's one with a unique set of injuries and a unique set of data that we don't necessarily have. And triceratops are a lot more common than, say, t-rexes, which was what was on the auction block last time I was talking about this stuff. So they're less rare, but all vertebrate fossils are rare. Twenty years ago, I could not have imagined that somebody would be able to tell me what colour archaeopteryx was and its feathers. And now we can do that.

PA: Right.

JT: But if we don't have access to the specimen, we can't.

PA: Right. For sure. They say this one, “Big John,” this skeleton is going to fetch something like 1.8 million dollars. It made me wonder how big is the dinosaur skeleton market?

JT: It's a handful of buyers, realistically. So, I mean, most people can't afford that. And it's a big commitment of space. But, you know, it has become kind of a thing to do. So a number of years ago now, Leo DiCaprio was buying dinosaurs. And Nicolas Cage was buying dinosaurs. And Nicolas Cage actually bought one that was illegally exported from Mongolia, and he ended up returning it.

PA: Oh dear!

JT: The problem is, not only does the increase in prices force museums out of the ability to buy any of these for their displays or collections. And it's gotten... publicly funded museums have seen cuts. And then COVID on top of that. Nobody's had any revenue from visitors. So their budgets are gone for purchasing this stuff. And the market keeps going up, pricing them out. And then you add into that as the... as the prices get more and more stratospheric, you get more and more black market trade and trade in stuff that's coming because people want stuff that's exciting from Mongolia or China. It's illegal to export fossils from those places.

PA: The... the auction house told The Guardian that they often see young people who they called the, quote, “Jurassic Park Generation” that want to purchase the skeleton. What do you make of that?

JT: I think it's kind of funny, given “Jurassic Park” came out when I was a graduate student in the 90s. [PA laughs] The “Jurassic Park Generation” is my age, and I'm middle-aged.

PA: Well, there's a whole new generation of the movies, though. [chuckle]

JT: Yeah, but the new generation, I'll be honest, the new generation of the movies are monster movies. The original “Jurassic Park” was actually pretty close to the science of the day. But the subsequent movies have gotten way far away from where we are in the science. And they've made up animals that don't exist. The original movie was very accurate.

PA: Right.

JT: To the time it was made. So my reaction is to kind of snort, I guess. [both laugh] Yes, and I'm thrilled that people are interested in dinosaurs. What I want them to be interested in is going to the museum and seeing the latest research and the latest things that we can learn, not in thinking they should really go out and buy one for their living room or their corporate headquarters.

PA: Are there kind of white knights out there that would swoop in and buy one of these and give it back to a museum to... to keep it from falling into private hands?

JT: There are... they’re few and far between. There are very few people who can afford that. And it hasn't happened often. What has happened... the most successful case, I would say, is the case of the “SUE” specimen, which was auctioned in the United States and sort of started all of this off. McDonald's and Disney partnered with the Field Museum to buy it and put it in the Field Museum and prepare it and do a bunch of research on it. And that was absolutely the best outcome that we could ever hope for from a sale of a fossil.

PA: Right.

JT: But that just doesn't happen very often. It's only happened the once.

PA: your organization, the Society of Vertebrate Palaeontology, has issued letters in the past about these kinds of sales. You mentioned last September when the tyrannosaurus rex skeleton they called “Stan” went up for sale. But at the end of the day, what can you really do? I mean, do you have recourse, or is it name and shame? What can you do?

JT: What we do is try and call the auction houses out on it, and make it public, and make the public aware of the issues in the sale of private fossils like this outside of a public... public trust. What we want to do is try and get somebody interested in getting them into the museums. There are private commercial collectors who collect who primarily sell to museums. I'm not arguing that private collections should not exist. That's not the position of the SVP. What we want is for scientifically important specimens to be sold into the public trust.

PA: So when you found out about this sale, can you just tell me about the flurry of activity that... that starts unfolding behind the scenes?

JT: Well, since you called this morning, I have been busy drafting a letter with my vice president and my past president to send to the head of the auction house. And we'll probably... the the article in CNN did mention our take on the “Stan” specimen.

PA: Right.

JT: But we will probably be contacting some of the other media outlets who've been posting about this. It sounds like almost directly quoting a press release to let them know that we... we object.

PA: Indeed. Well, listen, we're going to leave it there for now, but really appreciate you speaking with us today.

JT: Not a problem. Thank you very much for calling.

PA: Cheers.

CH: Jessica Theodor is a professor in the University of Calgary's Biological Sciences department and the President of the Society of Vertebrate Paleontology. She spoke to us from Calgary.

[music: indie rock]

Welsh Penis Petition

CH: Dragons represent all kinds of things to all kinds of cultures. The red dragon on the flag of Wales, for example, comes from the 12th-century legend of Merlin, and is symbolically associated with the Welsh people. It's a suitably proud-looking creature with two pointy wings, a long pointy tail, and a long pointy tongue. But a few Welsh people are pointing out that everyone's missing the point about the dragon missing one point in particular. Someone -- unsurprisingly, a male someone -- has started an online petition entitled: "Demand that all depictions of our dragon have a penis." The text of the petition includes various observations addressing the importance of adding a penis to the dragon on the Welsh flag. And the author also stands up for the importance of the penis doing the same -- claiming such draconic phallic turgidity "portrays dominance and leadership". The petition author is seeking 10,000 signatures. But, also unsurprisingly, he may have overestimated the size of ... the groundswell of support. It's currently short by over 9,000 signatures. Possibly because it's a joke. Possibly because it's not a joke, but it's stupid. And possibly because a dragon is a gigantic, terrifying, flying reptile that can destroy entire villages with its fiery breath. Who cares what its gender is? And if you do -- who's going around back to check?

[music: acoustic guitar]

Part 2: Afghan Refugees Helper, Paxton Smith, Muddy Moose

Afghan Refugees Helper

Guest: Ali Mirzad

CH: The race to leave Afghanistan has moved from the Kabul airport to the country's land borders with Pakistan and Iran. Hundreds of thousands have already crossed into the uncertainty of life as refugees. An unknown number of others are desperate to follow in their paths. Members of Ali Mirzad's family have joined that exodus. Mr. Mirzad is a senior advisor for Canadian Hazara Humanitarian Services -- the group that works to help members of Afghanistan's Hazara minority, which suffered persecution the last time the Taliban were in power. We reached Ali Mirzad in Ottawa.

PA: Mr. Mirzad, what's the latest you've heard from your relatives fleeing Afghanistan?

ALI MIRZAD: Well, my family, like so many other family members from our community here in Canada, the Hazara community, everyone is worried. Everyone's scared, frightened, tired, fatigued. You know, physically, mentally, psychologically. I have many relatives. I have two maternal uncles. One of my uncle with his family... and my uncles are quite old. They're elderly. His son is married. So the whole family, with his son's wife and daughter, all tried to... fled Kabul, obviously, because now that the airport is closed and everyone has packed up and left. They went to the Pakistan border through Kandahar. And the journey from Kabul to Kandahar is in itself quite dangerous and perilous, with many checkpoints and Taliban looking for Hazaras because we have suffered genocide at the hands of the Taliban, and they have continued to persecute us. So my uncle and his family, when he made it to the border on the Pakistan border in Kandahar, he was not allowed to go with his son, my cousin. But my cousin's wife and children, his mother, all of them managed to sneak in. And when my uncle and his son insisted, they took a beating. My uncle is severely injured. I haven't heard from them in two days. I'm not sure if they're OK, if they're not, where they are. When they called me very frantically, his mother from the other side of the Pakistani border, saying that he was injured and that they were going to try to bring him to a clinic. So that's the last news we have from my uncle. My other uncle, who is still in Kabul, is scared to even leave his house because now that the Americans have left, the Taliban have fully enforced security checkpoints everywhere. And people are just afraid to get out of their home.

PA: I'm so sorry that you and your family have had to go through this. It sounds just terrifying. We spoke with somebody at the Spin Boldak border last week on this program, who is saying that they're letting some through, but they're kind of holding them just past the border out of Afghanistan, but not letting them go all the way into Pakistan. Has your family been able... those that were able to get through, were they able to get through the border region and into Pakistan proper?

AM: No. So the... the information you received is accurate, even though they made it to the other side of the border on the Pakistani side, they're still in the middle of nowhere. They're not allowed to go further. And, you know, it's similar to the scene of the airport. So most of us are used, or were used, to see the scenes outside of the airport, people being there, standing there in the sewage water and being there by the thousands. But what most people have not seen or there was little coverage is that the other side of the airport, those that managed to get in the airport, were on the airstrip, on the tarmac for weeks on end with no water, no nothing, under the scorching heat of the Kabul summer. And it's the same thing now for those who managed to go across the border. So they're basically in the middle of nowhere. It's a desolate desert. There's no medical supply, no food, no water. People who fled, you know, when you're fleeing for your life, you're not really packing for a vacation. So people just fled with whatever they could, the one shirt or one shoes or whatever. So there's no supply, no food, and people are just kind of stuck there. And that's why there's just very little communication. My aunt, I was able to reach her on her phone that she had from Kabul, but most of the time, it doesn't connect because of the phone number being an Afghan phone number.

PA: It's been such a frantic time of trying to get people out, of trying to get information about who's where. It must just feel so disconnected to be all the way back here in Canada and playing broken telephone, just trying to get basic information. How are you feeling about the last 10 days and the situation with your family?

AM: The best, the most important word that I would use that would describe it best is being helpless, that feeling that you can do anything. You can only do so much by trying to call people here, trying to get answers from the government, trying to email organizations to ask for help. But, you know, beyond that, there isn't much you can do. I don't have any more answers than what's available out there. And my family over there, like so many others, have heard Canada's commitment, bold commitment of evacuating or rescuing 20,000 people. And that has lit a hope in their heart. And with that hope that they managed to gather the courage to endeavour through that perilous journey from Kabul to Kandahar and to Pakistan. But now that they're there, they're just looking for answers on how they can get to Canada, how they can be rescued. And they're looking to us for answers, and we don't have any answers, unfortunately.

PA: How much faith do they and how much faith do you have that the Canadian government will be able to help them?

AM: Well, I mean, I have all the faith in the world in the spirit of Canadians. I mean, history has shown that whenever we were faced with challenges that Canadians come together, whether it was with the Vietnam boat people or whether it was the Syrian crisis. With this new crisis in Afghanistan, I'm sure that we will all come together, and there is no shortage of that. I mean, we're seeing it already. But at a government level, I mean, so far, the government has rescued people that worked with the Canadian government. And they have committed to rescue people that would flee the country. But at this moment, there is no details available on how to do that.

PA: You had been trying to raise awareness about the dangers in Afghanistan for many months. What is it like to see the situation unfolding now and to hear Canada and other countries saying, OK, now we're going to take action?

AM: Well, the attention that we're seeing from the Liberal government is welcomed. And we applaud and commend it. It's just that it needs to happen faster, and the clarity needs to be brought as soon as possible on these programs how it can be done. I mean, I'm hearing every time that there is a press conference or press release from the minister's office, Minister Mendicino, about the tremendous work that our Canadian men and women in uniform and our diplomatic corps is doing. And we commend all of that. We're not saying that they're not doing enough. We're just trying to highlight that it needs to happen a little bit faster because people's lives are literally at stake.

PA: Indeed, they are. This has been an unbelievably hard time for you and for your family. I do hope you get news soon from your uncles at the border and in Kabul as well. So thank you for making time to speak with us today.

AM: Thank you so much for having me, Peter.

CH: Ali Mirzad is a senior advisor with the aid and advocacy group, Canadian Hazara Humanitarian Services. He's in Ottawa.

[music: acoustic guitar]

Paxton Smith

CH: A Texas law that comes into effect today doesn't technically ban abortion. Instead, it makes it possible for private citizens to sue anyone who provides an abortion after six weeks of pregnancy. In other words, when 85 to 90% of all abortions occur -- and well before many women even know they're pregnant. The bill was signed by Texas Governor Greg Abbott back in May, and it's been the subject of intense litigation ever since. It was also the subject of Dallas high school valedictorian Paxton Smith's speech -- when she ditched her approved remarks and went rogue at her graduation ceremony that month.

SOUNDCLIP

PAXTON SMITH: I have dreams and hopes, and ambitions. Every girl graduating today does. And we have spent our entire lives working towards our future. And without our input and without our consent, our control over that future has been stripped away from us. I am terrified that if my contraceptives fail, I am terrified that if I am raped, then my hopes and aspirations and dreams and efforts for my future will no longer matter. I hope that you can feel how gut-wrenching that is. I hope you can feel how dehumanizing it is to have the autonomy over your own body taken away from you.

CH: After giving that speech in May, Ms. Smith spoke with Carol on "As It Happens" about the abortion bill -- and why she said what she did.

SOUNDCLIP

PS: I decided about 10 days before graduation. I was trying to finish a school assignment for a psychology class, and I couldn't bring myself to focus on the assignment because I was so caught up in thinking about the heartbeat bill and how much it upset me. And it hit me in that moment that that's what I should talk about.

CO: And even people like Hillary Clinton tweeting that, just how much courage you have. Did you feel... did you think it was courage that... that was behind this? Is that how you felt, that you were doing something very brave?

PS: I don't think so. It's hard to say because I feel like... I felt like I was just doing the right thing. I mean, that's really it. Like, I had emotions about it, but ultimately I felt like it was wrong to not use that platform to address reproductive rights because that's what's going on right now. So people... people call it brave. People call it courageous. Like, I guess that's understandable. But I didn't view it as a brave act. I was really just thinking about all the ways that this affects me and how unjustified it is. I think when I was upset because it affected me, that sparked me to think about making the speech. But the ultimate reason why I made it was because it affects everyone.

CH: Paxton Smith is a high school valedictorian who spoke with Carol on "As It Happens" in June about the so-called "heartbeat bill" which took effect in Texas today.

[music: ambient]

Muddy Moose

Guest: Maurice Valliere

CH: Maurice Valliere is a prospector in Timmins, Ontario -- north of Sudbury. But now, he can add another skill to his résumé: moose rescuer. Last week, Mr. Valliere and a fellow prospector got a call from a friend who had found a moose stuck in mud -- like, really stuck. So they showed up to help. We reached Maurice Valliere in Timmins, Ontario.

PA: Mr. Valliere, tell us about that moment that you first saw this moose. What went through your mind?

MAURICE VALLIERE: Well, I was amazed that it was that big. It was a huge moose. A big monster head. And all it was was a head. It was nothing else. I mean, I thought I'd be able to strap around his belly or something and pull him out. He said he was stuck. He didn't say he was buried.

PA: Yeah. [MV laughs] Because it was right to, like, his chin, right?

MV: Yes, that’s all it was. Just a head sticking out. And he was bellowing, and he was terrified because he heard the bikes. We came in by bike, and he heard the bikes and the Argo coming in. And I guess that must have scared him.

PA: I mean, the pictures that I've seen are just extraordinary. As you say, it's just the face and head of the moose sticking out. It’s completely covered in mud. It almost looks like it's blending in. How did your friend even see it before calling you?

MV: He was about 20 feet from the road... well, we got a call from... from an 82-year-old prospector that was out there getting soil samples. And he come across it. And he tried to throw some sticks and logs and all kinds of stuff in there to see if the moose can get himself out. But there's no way he could lift his legs high enough to get out. So he called a buddy of mine and said... gave him the GPS coordinates. And it's not that far from where I live, so I said, well, let's go.

PA: The mud was really thick. Like, was some kind of an old culvert or a ditch of some kind because it's quite deep, but like thick, thick mud, right?

MV: Yeah, this is an old concession road. It's an old road. And I had grown back in again. And I went through the swamp. So when they go through the swamp, they... they... they put in corduroy roads of logs, and then they dig up the ditches on both sides so the water can run away from the road. So that's what he got stuck in is a ditch.

PA: How do you even approach this? Like, as a problem-solving mechanism, this is quite a riddle.

MV: [chuckle] Well, when I first got there, he was trying... trying to lift his leg and trying to push me away. I talked to him for about five minutes, real low. I didn't make any fast moves or anything. He seemed to calm down a little bit. And as soon as I got the sling over top of his head, around his antlers, then... then he thought I was going to hurt him, and he started to fight back. And he was just sinking more and more. He had a hard time keeping his head above the mud. And that didn't work out. So I took the sling off, and we went on the other side of the big hole. And there wasn't any branches. The bank was a lot lower there. And I figured, OK, maybe we can get him out that way. So we went around the swamp and around the big hole and... and he just looked at us the second time, and I think he figured out that we were trying to help him. [PA chuckles] He didn't fight at all. He just looked at us. My dog was with me, and he just laid down there, and he didn't move, he didn't bark, he didn't do anything. And I think that calmed the… calmed the moose down a bit.

PA: You're a bit of a moose whisperer then.

MV: Well, yeah, well, you can't really make fast moves. He was terrified, I'm sure.

PA: I bet! What does one say to a moose when one crouches down --

MV: Well, you talk very low, you know, sound down, I'm not going to hurt you. And you just stand there for a while, and he looks at you and realizes you're not making a move for him.

PA: You say you have this sling that you threw over his head. What do you have? What was that?

MV: It's a soft cloth sling. They use them for when they haul freight and steel and stuff.

PA: Oh sure!

MV: You don't want to bend it or, you know? So I brought two of them with me, and I thought maybe that I could get one underneath his belly. But there's no way.

PA: No. So you get one around what? [MV clears his throat] Like, the... the antler?

MV: I threw it over his head, and then I had to repeat a couple of times to make sure it was over his horns. We started pulling with the Argo, and he... he knew he was getting out. He pulled back to keep his head under the mud. And we got him sideways, and then we had to put the Argo in reverse and pull him out some more. It took us, I’d say, about an hour, hour and a half.

PA: Oh wow!

MV: To finally get him out. And I got the sling off of one horn. And then, all of a sudden, he turned sideways and got up. And I never got a chance to get the sling off the second horn. But it's a soft sling. So it wasn't tied or anything, or it was just hanging in there. So I'm hoping he caught it on the branch, and it came off.

PA: Do you think he was hurt?

MV: I thought maybe we might have hurt him, you know, on the way out. But no, he... he slid really good. I was... I was amazed because there was a stump that I was really worried about. And he slid right next to it. His horn was catching the moss a little bit. But that's it. He had a little bit of moss in his horn.

PA: Did you try to, like, give it water or anything? Or just figured not to get close?

MV: [both chuckling] No, you can’t get close to them. No way. He was just shaking because he was... he didn't have any more strength at all. I felt so sorry for him, you know? He kept looking at us, and he had mud in his mouth, and he was spitting mud out, and mud was in his eyes. And, you know, you feel sorry for an animal that's suffering.

PA: But that's the thing. You did a really amazing thing. And people consider you a hero for having done that.

MV: I know that. I just can’t believe the comments I'm getting online. I said, holy jeez, man. [PA chuckles] It's something everybody in Timmins would have done. Half the town would have came if they would have known. It’s like a dog that needs a hand getting out of water. You know, everybody would go over and give them a hand. It's nothing special.

PA: Well, I think it may well be the right thing to do, but it is certainly something special.

MV: Yeah. It was a bit scary because a full-sized moose is pretty intimidating, you know?

PA: [chuckling] I’d say.

MV: Especially when he starts snorting at you and throwing mud. I was covered in mud from head to toe. It was OK. It turned out… I felt really good after it was done. And the moose was fine. He was running away. It was good.

PA: Well, whether you want to or not, I think you'll be a local hero for a while.

MV: [both chuckling] I don't really want to, but I'm just amazed that anybody would be interested in stuff like this. I'm getting calls from Toronto and all over the place. I mean, it's… it’s ridiculous. Even CNN wanted to do an interview.

PA: Oh yeah?!

MV: I said, yeah.

PA: Did you talk to them?

MV: They called my buddy. He's the one that put it online. I don't know anything about computers at all. And they want to... they want to Skype it. Whether that's been cancelled, or they're still going to go ahead with it? I don't know.

PA: Well, we are sure glad we were able to get you on. [MV chuckles] Because, like I said, it's just an amazing story. Good work. And thank you for this. I really appreciate this.

MV: Oh, you're welcome. Anytime.

PA: Have a great day.

MV: Yeah. Bye-bye.

CH: Maurice Valliere helped rescue a moose last week. He's in Timmins, Ontario.

[music: folk]

Greg Stewart Record

CH: Greg Stewart didn't just break the Paralympic shot put record -- he posted the top three scores, and came away with the gold. Last night, the British Columbian won gold at his first Paralympics, with a 16.75 metre throw. He was competing in the F46 category, which is for athletes with a single upper limb amputation. Mr. Stewart was born without the lower part of his left arm. Five years ago, he made the switch from volleyball to shot put, in the hopes of making it to the Paralympics. This morning, Greg Stewart spoke with the CBC about how it feels to have finally achieved his goal.

SOUNDCLIP

GREG STEWART: It's been an incredible support. Honestly, I don't really know how I feel at this current moment, you know, because it's still so new. And, you know, I didn't go in with the expectations to medal. I just went in there focussed on what I needed to do. And yeah, now… now I’m a Paralympic champion, so it's a little weird at the moment.

DOUG HERBERT: [chuckling] So when you made that first throw, did... did you know that that was the one that you thought might help you win?

GS: Man, I had no clue. [both chuckle] I... honestly, I was like… I said to the coach a few times. I was like, man, I don't even remember. I literally think I blacked out during it. Just like, I remember stepping into the ring. And then next thing you know, being like, has it hit the ground yet? And I stepped out and peered over and saw it said 16.75. And I was like, what? No way. So and then, yeah, just throughout the you know, the other five, I was like, did I really throw it that far? [DH chuckles] And then on my fifth, they have it at 16.73, which was a little bit more concrete. So yeah, a little... a little wild.

DH: I guess the celebration is a bit muted, at least because of the COVID restrictions there?

GS: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, I think it'll hit a lot closer when I get home, you know, and I see my folks at the airport and whatnot. So, I think that's kind of when it will settle in a little... little bit more. But also, you know, getting back to the community of Kamloops because they've been so incredible the whole journey, so.

DH: One of our local residents, Larry Reed, who you would know fairly well, has been proposing a Greg Stewart Day for Kamloops.

GS: [both laughing] Oh really?!

DH: What do you think about that?

GS: That is like make it on a Wednesday.

DH: [both laughing] I like it! A wednesday! Why a Wednesday?

GS: Oh, it's the middle of the week. It's up there, but it’s Hump Day. So just take that day off, yeah.

DH: Yeah, well, we're going to speak with your mum a bit later on this morning. Do you have any message to the people of Kamloops, to your family?

GS: [laughing] If my mom's going to be on, good luck. But no, you know, I just… I just want to share with people, you know, do what you love, love what you do, and have fun. Because, ultimately, you know, that's really all that matters in the end.

CH: That was gold medal Paralympian Greg Stewart speaking with Doug Herbert, guest host of "Daybreak Kamloops", today.

[music: hip-hop beat]

LR: Fake Maud Lewis Painting

CH: For years, Sue Corbett of Nova Scotia hung a costal scene painted by Canadian artist Maud Lewis in her home with pride. But yesterday, she told us how she found out that painting might actually be a fake. After hearing her story, Talkback chimed in with a story of its own. A listener shared his experience with a painting he found at a garage sale.

SOUNDCLIP

[our answering machine beep]

RAY BERNIER: It's Ray Bernier calling from Fisher Ranch, Manitoba. My story is the reverse. I was at a garage sale that had mostly costume jewellery and assorted junk, except for this little painting that caught my eye immediately. And I grabbed it. I call it and impressionistic painting of Marilyn Monroe. So I bought it, three bucks. On the back with a certificate of authenticity. And I know that's the kind of thing you can print off any time you want. But there was a hotmail account and a name, so I went online. There is a Facebook page for Lesia Anna. So I messaged that Facebook page, and I got a reply fairly quickly from somebody who's taking care of Ms. Anna’s estate. I guess she's in retirement in a care home in Milan. She's originally from Winnipeg, apparently, and did most of her work in Toronto. And did fairly well by the sounds of it. Anyway... because I had also sent a picture of the painting. She also sent a picture of the painting to Lesia Anna, who said, yeah, that's my piece. So she says, well, if I were you, I'd go and insure it for 1,200 dollars. I nearly choked. Three bucks, and it’s apparently worth $1,200.

CH: Thanks for calling, Ray, and good eye. If you've stumbled on any unexpected finds, call Talkback at: 416-205-5687 -- or email your story to: aih@cbc.ca.

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September 01, 2021 Episode Transcript

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