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The AIH Transcript For August 26, 2021

[hosts]Peter Armstrong, Chris Howden[/hosts]

PETER ARMSTRONG: Hello, I'm Peter Armstrong, sitting in for Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is “As It Happens”.

[music: theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

PA: Nowhere fast. Canadian officials told our guest and his family to get to a Kabul airport hotel and wait for further instructions -- which never came. Now, he's terrified for what comes next.

CH: Don't bank on the banks. Afghanistan's former deputy finance minister says he gives the country two weeks tops before a full economic collapse -- a crisis he says the Taliban is ill-equipped to handle.

PA: Keeping it real. We hear from a Mi'kmaq woman who's leading the charge to create a logo of authenticity, that would distinguish her community's true creators from the exploitation of pretenders.

CH: Such great heights. A longtime adventure partner of famed mountaineer and writer David Roberts tells us what made him such an extraordinary climber -- and an even better friend.

PA: I'm with Cupid. The restoration of a Vermeer uncovers a painting of the nude kid with the arrows within the painting -- and our guest calls it the most important discovery of her career.

CH: And… suckers punch. New research reveals that octopuses throw things at each other -- and that usually, it's a female throwing things at an amorous male she's trying to keep at several arms' length.

PA: “As It Happens”, the Thursday edition. Radio that knows some pick-up artists make you want to hurl.

[music: theme]

Part 1: Afghanistan: Journalist, Mi'kmaq Art Authentication, Vermeer Restoration

Afghanistan: Journalist

Guest: Samandar Khan

CH: The scenes at Kabul's airport have been desperate. But today they were horrific. Suicide bombs exploded just outside the airport gates, and Abbey Gate and Camp Baron -- two key entry points where thousands of Afghans have been gathered all week. Dozens have been killed including 12 U.S. service members. Dozens more are injured. Hours earlier, Samandar Khan's son Ahmad was in that crowd at Camp Baron. Mr. Khan is a journalist in Kabul, and this week, his family was instructed by the Canadian government to travel to the airport immediately, and wait for further instructions. Those instructions never came -- and although Canada issued the family visas, they never did board a plane out of Kabul. We reached Samandar Khan in Kabul, where he's in hiding with his son.

PA: Samandar, when you and your son saw those images of the bombing on the news today, what went through your mind?

SAMANDAR KHAN: It was shocking. It was terrible news. And we saw in Afghan channels, news channels, that we lost many people because we know the crowd. We saw the locations. So the casualties will be very high. And so this was shocking and very terrible trauma for us to see. And me and my son was crying watching this news.

PA: I mean, a few hours earlier, your son had been standing in the spot where this... this explosion detonated. How do you even process that?

SK: Yeah, for the past 50 hours or more, I was continuously calling him, giving him messages and giving him hope. And he was explaining everything to us. He was afraid and he was... he was alone. I was not sleeping whole night.

PA: Canada issued you and your family visas earlier this week. What did they give you and what instructions did they give you?

SK: The one email was an access document. And that access document, they wrote that you were a Canadian citizen. You have issued a visa. You need to reach immediately to the international airport. And they showed us this route, a way, a narrow way, linking to the Camp Baron. And they instructed us that when you reach Camp Baron, stand by the Canadian flag and our officers will be there. They’ll take you on board. I was not permitted. I was not allowed to go. I was stopped. And my son got entry, and he reached the Canadian flag. And he was waiting there with many other families. He told me that all of us are together and waiting for Canadian officers to come, but it was not happen that way.

PA: So just to recap, you get these emails. The Canadian government says, here's your visa, you'll be treated like a Canadian citizen. Just get to this Camp Baron is basically an airport hotel right next to the... the main airport. Look for the Canadian flag. And before you even got there, you had to pass through Taliban checkpoints. Is that right?

SK: There are six checkpoints we saw. They are stopping people, beating people. They have plastic pipes and also electric power cables. We were stopped and we were told that you are not allowed. So my documents were broken and destroyed. And my son was able to at least... he was giving... he tried again and again. And he was succeed to pass the first checkpoint. Then finally, he reached to the... to the Camp Baron. He reached the flag, the Canadian flag. So he was standing there for more than 24 hours.

PA: Once he got in where there were more international presence. What was his experience like then?

SK: He told me that other international, they have systems. For example, he mentioned the U.K.’s. The U.K were having proper transportation system. The delegation were coming. So they were facilitating and taking them in cars inside the airport. The Americans were doing the same. But there was no representative from the Canadian government or Canadian Immigration there. They were hopeless. They were... they were... they were having no support. And they were very sad and they were very angry on the arrangement the Canadian government had. Even lost some of them... lost their life because this evening, explosion got their lives. They lost their lives.

PA: Was he ever even by phone able to reach any Canadian officials, any Canadian government officials, soldiers, anyone on the ground there?

SK: The only person he was able to... to pass the message through American forces or through the U.K.’s. They were coming in, meeting with the people waiting there. There was no other possibility. There were some journalists in Canada, or organization in Canada. They were helping us to do contact in the airport with the Canadian officials. Everyone tried.

PA: And given all of this, Samandar, how angry, how disappointed are you with the Canadian government right now?

SK: So, you know, we have chances. We had challenges. My family had chances to go through the Committee to Protect Journalists to go to Ireland and we go Germany. We rejected that because we... and my family and my relatives, they were invested to go to Canada because we have processed our documents. So we... we lost other chances. And we are in danger now living in Kabul and in this situation, relocating again and again in different houses.

PA: Just to be clear about what you said earlier, you had a chance to go to... to Germany or to Ireland. They offered you transport there, but you turned those down because you thought you had assurances from Canada, correct?

SK: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We had all the procedures. We had completed our fingerprints, biometrics, and we lost that chances to go to other countries. And then, we lost this chance to go to Canada as well.

PA: Samandar, I can't imagine what this is like for you. These... you've been awake for three days straight, trying to get your family out, then your son out. Now, just trying to find somewhere safe to figure out what's next. I wonder, have you had a chance to just sort of stop and take a moment and think about what these last three days have been like for you and for your family? It's… it’s… it’s almost impossible to imagine.

SK: We are... we are journalists. And we’ve worked in Afghanistan for 20 years. And still, I'm... I'm ahead of the union protecting other journalists’ rights. I was preparing tough statements against Taliban, against terrorist groups. I was reading tough statements all the time in press conferences. I was doing a tough job defending journalists’ rights, this freedom, freedom of expression, rights. My whole family was doing this. And now... now it is impossible to live here. This is terrible. This is shocking for us. Most of my colleagues worked with me in 20 years they left Kabul. This is not possible anymore to work here.

PA: There's a lot of Canadians listening to you speak right now. And I wonder, what do you want them to take away from... from this story? From your story?

SK: I… I ask the Canadian government, the Canadian prime minister, they said we'll save people, people like the Canadian government refuses. And I request them to... to help these people. Afghans are suffering a very difficult time. We lost all the develop, all the systems in 20 years. We lost everything in a few hours. We request Canadian officials to take this issue seriously. If I remain in Afghanistan, I will loss my life, I mean, I’ll be killed or I’ll be disappeared.

PA: Samandar, I mean, this is just heartbreaking to hear. And I'm so sorry that this has happened to you. It's incredibly frustrating to hear your story. I hope this interview helps explain to Canadians and to the Canadian government what... what needs to happen on the ground in Afghanistan.

SK: Thank you for your support. Thank you for the interview, sir.

PA: Do take care, OK?

SK: Thank you.

CH: Samandar Khan is the President of the Afghan Independent Journalists Association. He's in hiding with his son in Kabul. You can read more about their story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih. Later in the program, we'll hear from Afghanistan's former deputy finance minister -- who predicts a collapse of the country's economy in months, if not weeks, under an isolated Taliban government.

[music: classic rock]

Mi'kmaq Art Authentication

Guest: Shannon Monk

CH: A little logo can go a long way. At least, Shannon Monk certainly hopes so. She's among those advocating for a mark of authenticity that could be placed on art and objects produced by Mi'kmaq creators. The concept is being developed by the Mi'kmaq Rights Initiative, which hopes to have it up and running by April. And it could apply to everything from jewelry to seafood. Shannon Monk runs the Initiative's Mi'kmaq Cultural Tourism Project, and has been spearheading the development of the logo. We reached her in Musquodoboit Harbour, Nova Scotia.

PA: Ms. Monk, what makes an object authentically, Mi'Kmaq?

SHANNON MONK: Well, interesting that you ask that question. That's the question that we are asking --

PA: [chuckling] Right.

SM: As we are engaging with our community members. And it's interesting, the elders say that sometimes they can't really define what it means to be authentic, but they know it when they see it. As long as it comes from the... the hands, the hearts, the minds and the spirits of the Mi'Kmaq. When we're talking about certifying or authenticating Mi'Kmaq culture, Mi'Kmaq content, Mi'Kmaq experiences, we're primarily looking at the originator or the creator of that product or service. But we also have to keep in mind the influences of traditional Mi'Kmaq culture. So it's created some really fascinating opportunities to have discussion about where cultural evolution fits within cultural content.

PA: For sure. And I mean, embedded in that is, as you say, some of that ambiguity in the debate around it. But given the ambiguity, how do you go about determining whether something, in particular, fits the bill?

SM: Mm-hmm. Part of what we're doing over the course of the next year is connecting with community members and talking specifically about a certification process. What we're hearing is that if you are connected to a Mi'Kmaq community, if you have grown up with the language or you've grown up with the culture, and you've grown up with the different traditions and ceremonies, you have that sense of your identity, that cultural identity as a Mi'Kmaq person. And so you also will have an understanding of what some of the common elements are within the Mi'Kmaq community and some of the symbols, some of the images. So if we use that as the foundation for any content, then what we're hoping is that we still leave room for creators to put their own stamp, their own modern twist on it.

PA: Right.

SM: Or, in some cases, even just to revive the traditional element.

PA: You know, as I'm sure you know, we've covered a number of stories on this program about, you know, fake Indigenous art and the problems that get so inherent with that.

SM: That's right.

PA: What are some of the specific examples of... of that that concern you?

SM: Well, it's interesting. I came across an image that is very specifically recognized as a Mi'Kmaq image with the different curls. And this image was actually copyrighted from a New Hampshire organization in the States. And when I tried to research who had copyrighted this, there was no person that I could contact. There was no organization that I could contact. And yet, they had their stamp of authenticity. And so what we're saying is is that we want to ensure that the general public, any tourist or visitor, knows exactly where this product is coming from. And they can source that content back to the community and back to the artist or crafter or cultural tourism operator.

PA: What kind of damage is done -- or can be done -- when we don't have a way of authenticating and being able to just sort of say what is what?

SM: Well, you know, it's an interesting question. It goes deep because we know the impacts of colonization have really impacted our youth in terms of who they are and… and their identity. And up until I would say even about 10 years ago, there was still a lot of fear and shame around self-identifying, you know?

PA: Right. Sure.

SM: As part of any Indigenous culture in Canada. And so, when we think about watering down and exploiting our culture, we really want to provide an opportunity for our youth to be able to stand tall and proud. And to be able to claim who they are. And to be able to share that with the world in a really authentic and powerful, and meaningful way.

PA: And within these conversations, is it important to -- and how do you -- make space for, you know, people who legitimately have Mi'Kmaq ancestry but have been, you know, displaced from their communities? They may not have the kinds of connections that... that would be the easy ones to authenticate their work.

SM: Mm-hmm. Well, we do know that through the Peace and Friendship Treaties that Mi'Kmaq, are certainly known as the most welcoming and beautiful, friendly people in the world. And so, we're looking at this whole project from an inclusionary perspective, recognizing that there have been some very significant impacts from colonization. You know, the assimilationist policies, the Sixties Scoop, the child welfare system even today that has really displaced a lot of people from their culture. And so the intention is not to create that divide but to look for ways to ensure that our people are still included.

PA: And I wonder if you can just sort of cast us forward here five, six, seven years after you accomplish this and it's working well, what do you... what do you measure its success? Like, what kind of material difference do you hope this can make for... for Mi'Kmaq creators, artists in general?

SM: Well, we want to see an increased number of cultural tourism businesses throughout Nova Scotia. And so that means certainly building capacity in that area. We also want youth to see cultural tourism as a viable employment opportunity. And so really building that awareness. We want our Mi'kmaq communities to stand tall and proud. And for our cultural tourism to be a world-class destination where people are flocking to our communities to experience the beautiful Mi'Kmaq culture.

PA: Well, listen. It's a really neat project, and we really do wish you the best of luck. And stay in touch with us as this... as this comes together.

SM: Thank you so much. We really appreciate your interest.

PA: Have a great day.

AM: Take care. Bye-bye.

CH: Shannon Monk is the manager of the Mi'kmaq Cultural Tourism Project. We reached her in Musquodoboit Harbour, Nova Scotia.

[music: ambient]

Vermeer Restoration

Guest: Uta Neidhardt

CH: Some of Johannes Vermeer's best-known paintings feature women doing things near windows. Holding a balance, pouring milk, drinking wine -- all near windows. You know, it was The Netherlands in the 17th century. Windows were TV. Plus, of course, the light is best over there. And in all those works, the women are the focus. But after the restoration of a Vermeer called "Girl Reading a Letter at an Open Window" uncovered a new character in the painting, she'll have to share the limelight. Uta Neidhardt is the senior curator at Gemäldegalerie Alte Meister. She oversaw the restoration. We reached her in Dresden, Germany.

PA: Ms. Neidhardt, people listening to this are probably more familiar with a "Girl with a Pearl Earring or "Milkmaid". Can you just describe for us what's happening in this painting, or at least what was happening before the restoration?

UTA NEIDHARDT: Yeah, the "Girl Reading a Letter at an Open Window", until 2017, we saw in the painting a girl in front of an open window. She is reading a letter. And she stands behind a table with a curtain and a Chinese porcelain. And behind her, there was an empty white wall. But in 2017, we started with the big restoration and research project. And during this restoration, it turned out that on the wall in the background, there was a picture within a picture -- which was over-painted by another hand, I would say 50, 60, 70 years later than the painting by Vermeer was finished.

PA: And what we saw in that painting within a painting was... was a cupid. Can you describe that for us? Because it's quite big. It really stands out.

UN: Yeah. Yeah. Vermeer used a real existing painting. As far as we think, that was a painting depicting Cupid, a little God of love with an arrow and bow. He is naked, and he is standing and looking directly to the... to the visitor, to us. [chuckle]

PA: And you say this was discovered during the restoration in 2017. Was that the first time that anybody thought there might be something behind the paint that was on the... the painting that you had?

UN: No, that was not the first time. Actually, we already knew that since 1979. In this year, they made the first X-ray examination of the painting, and the scientists found that there was this picture within the picture on the wall. And in that time, everybody thought that Vermeer himself did this over-painting, as he did in some other parts of this painting. For instance, he over-painted a big glass in the foreground. And he turned the figure of the girl a little bit more to the wall. And so he did a lot of little and bigger changes in the painting himself. Therefore, the scientists and the art historians always thought that he may also overpainted this Cupid.

PA: How can you tell that it's a different hand versus that it was Vermeer himself?

UN: Yeah, that was the crucial question. And there are some little pieces which we stitched together, and then we found this solution. First, when the restorer started to take away the over-painting, he found that the painting below -- so the original picture of the Cupid -- was in a wonderful state. It was a wonderful finished painting. And this painting already had a cracking layer. The paint layer is a sign of aging.

PA: Right.

UN: And there were already a lot of these cracks in the surface of the original paint layer of the Cupid. And the overprinting paint was sunken into these cracks already. And that was what the restorer found under the microscope. We had another interesting finding. We asked our colleagues from the School of Fine Arts in Dresden. So they took some paint samples. And it turns out that if you see these different paint layers under the microscope, we found there was some ground layer, and then the painting by Vermeer. And then there were two layers of varnish. One layer, a very thin layer, of dirt... dirt between two layers of varnish. And on top of this came the over-painting

PA: This... this amazing detective work has... has really provided evidence of the change and of when it happened and by who did it. I wonder, though, have we learned anything about why this might have been painted over?

UN: Yeah, this is still a secret. [both chuckle] Because it's very sure that it was not because of the state or of the situation of the paint layer because this paint layer is quite wonderfully preserved. Maybe it was an aesthetic reason. So we think it was another reason than the state of this part of the painting. Maybe they... they didn't like this very vivid and crowded background [PA chuckles] in the beginning of the 18th century.

PA: I spent some time this morning just sort of staring at my computer screen, with one half of the screen [UN chuckles] was the original unrestored, and the other half was the newer one.

UN: Yeah.

PA: And it does give you a different feeling. I experienced the painting differently. I wonder, from a more technical perspective, how does this change maybe the meaning or the interpretation of this painting?

UN: It changes everything, I would say. In the former state, she was in front of a white empty wall reading something on a piece of paper. But now, we know it's a... it's a love letter, of course.

PA: Well, listen, what a... what a wonderful story. And I really do hope I get to Dresden soon to come and... and get to see it myself.

UN: Yeah. I would be happy to meet you here. [both chuckle]

PA: All right. Thank you so much for speaking with us today.

UN: Yeah, it was a pleasure.

CH: Uta Neidhardt is senior curator at Gemäldegalerie Alte Meister. We reached her in Dresden, Germany. And you can find more on that story on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: piano]

Octopus Throwing

CH: Oh, great, here he comes. That jerk who's always trying to pick you up. "Hey, hot stuff," he yells. "Nice arms!" Where you'd get those sweet arms?" Yeah, male octopuses are grossly obsessed with arms. As evidenced by a come-on you can tell he's really proud of: "Hey, girl, you need me in your arms -- 'cause I'm a sucker for them!" It's tiresome at best. But it turns out that, as a female octopus, you can actually use those eight appendages he's so captivated by to throw him off. Six years ago, a team from the University of Sydney got video of octopuses throwing shells and silt. Well, not "throwing", so much as holding things under their bodies, and then shooting water at them using their siphons, sending them flying. And sometimes, hitting other octopuses. Well, now, after more videos and more research, researchers have confirmed that sometimes, octopuses are trying to hit other octopuses with marine gunk. And usually, it's females targeting males who won't stop coming on to them. For example, in 2016, one female threw silt at some flirty creep 10 times, and hit him five times. Apparently, he tried to duck, but -- I mean, how does an octopus duck? For that matter, how does a duck octopus? Sorry. Anyway, now we've all learned something. And let's hope the male octopuses are learning something too: be careful when you try to have a fling -- because you just might get one.

[music: orchestral]

Part 2: Afghanistan: Economy, David Roberts Obit

Afghanistan: Economy

Guest: Gul Sabit

CH: Western countries are not clamouring to cooperate with the Taliban. And now, economic experts say Afghanistan is headed for a catastrophic financial collapse. The country has long been heavily propped up by foreign aid from the World Bank and the United States -- money that isn't flowing into the country anymore. And with banks closed and assets frozen, it's been nearly impossible to get money in and out of the country. Gul Sabit was, for a time, Afghanistan's deputy finance minister in Hamid Karzai's government. We reached him in Union City, California.

PA: Mr. Sabit, how much longer does Afghanistan's economy have before it goes into full-blown collapse?

GUL SABIT: It is hard to predict right now. Everything will depend on what... what the world does with Afghanistan. It depends on international recognition of the Taliban government. It depends on what kind of government they form. If, you know, whether they are susceptible to... to the international community or not.

PA: Afghanistan's economy is... is unique in many ways. It's amongst the... the worst economies in the world. Can you just help us understand what... what is shaping the economy now and how the Taliban takeover kind of fits into that bigger picture?

GS: Overall, the economy -- Afghan economy -- is mostly a cash economy. We have a resilient banking system, but it's not very widely used. The economy itself, we have about 90 per cent of trade deficit. That is really bad. There are very little exports and then a lot of imports. So, in other words, Afghanistan relies mostly on international supplies for basic consumer goods, too. So everything -- most of the things -- come from... from... from other countries.

PA: It's an economy that mostly relies on... on supplies being brought in from other countries.

GS: Yes.

PA: It's financed by international aid.

GS: yes.

PA: The entire local economy is done in cash with very little generic local economic activity. When the Taliban took over, basically, everybody just decided to stay home and... and stop spending, stop doing, stop working in a lot of cases. What... what impact does that have on immediately throughout an already troubled economy?

GS: Well, at this time currently, everything is at a standstill. And what people are going to do -- and this is going to bring another pressure -- they are going to convert their Afs -- or Afghani currency -- to dollars. And then they're going to hold onto it. And they are going to, of course, spend to buy, you know, to purchase goods for their daily needs. And those have to come from outside too. So their trade needs dollars too. So, initially, when everything opens up, and things are slowly, you know, they're starting to open up, traders are going to try to... to import. And then they are going to pick dollars from the market, which people are going to spend or convert to... to buy their daily... daily goods and items. So this is going to hurt the Afs pretty soon. As soon as the markets open, you will see the Afghani -- or the Afghan currency -- will depreciate significantly.

PA: And at the same time, you have thousands -- probably tens of thousands -- of people who worked for international organizations that are no longer present on the ground in Afghanistan. What does that mean for just the general levels of employment that were already, as I say, quite low?

GS: Well, we have been talking about this. And we keep saying that Afghanistan right now is going to be a brain drain. [chuckle] Because these are the people who have some skills. They... they work. They... some of them even, you know, created employment. And most of those are leaving, those people, or they have already left. So this is going to... and then, on the other hand, you know, salaries, a lot of money, international send a lot of money to these people in terms of, you know, salaries and other benefits, all that stuff. So there is a lot of money injection to the market that's going to stop very soon.

PA: At any crisis, managing monetary and fiscal policy is difficult. The... the central bank governor has left the country, and the Taliban have... have at least indicated that the new governor is going to be this man named Haji Mohammad Idris. Do you know him?

GS: No, I've not heard of him. When he was appointed, all I read in the news about him was that he was a teacher of a madrassa in Pakistan. And now, he is a central bank governor. That's what I read about him after he was appointed.

PA: But, I mean, based on his CV alone, this is a deep crisis. Does he strike you as the kind of person who can help manage an economy as deeply troubled as this?

GS: I... actually, you know, this would be very difficult, even if you send [chuckling] a Federal Reserve chairman here to to do this. And this is such a crisis because there are a number of things that are... that is, you know, there are political pressure, there are international relations, there is monetary issues, there are fiscal issues, there are, you know, a lot of stuff. So this requires actually a team to manage.

PA: I wonder, just as an Afghan watching all of this unfold, as the country's former finance minister, watching all of this unfold, what... what has this last week, week-and-a-half been like for you?

GS: I... you know, when the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan, I was pretty much a baby. I don't remember it, but I'm sure my parents remember that pain. I remember it a little bit. But then I lived as a refugee in Pakistan. I went to schools, went, you know, suffered a lot of poverty and a lot of painful events in my life. And then, all this civil war and then withdrawal. So I've been to a lot. This is probably a very painful week for me. But for me, what it is, is we achieved so much in the last 20 years. And right now, I'm not saying that's all lost. And I hope the Taliban will... will keep most of it. But it's still... it's very scary because it was a country that was, you know, that you could see it was a vibrant country. People were returning all the time. And young people were going to school. And I always predicted that in the next 20 years, I think it would turn into a developing country from developed... from... from least developed country. That was our hope. But now, all those dreams seem to be shattered, which I hope not. [chuckle] And so it was a pretty, pretty emotionally difficult week for us -- for all of us.

PA: I'm sure it has been. Listen, I really appreciate you making the time to speak with me today.

GS: Thank you very much, Peter.

CH: Gul Sabit is Afghanistan's former deputy finance minister. He spoke to us from Union City, California.

[music: vocalization]

Wrong Erin O’Toole

CH: Erin O'Toole is used to fielding questions, comments, and snide remarks on Twitter. And so is Erin O'Toole. In fact, over the past year, she's become a bit of an expert. I'm not talking about Erin O'Toole, Conservative Party leader now. I'm talking about Erin O'Toole, Colorado radio host. And since their Twitter handles are nearly identical, Ms. O'Toole has recently, and involuntarily, been sucked into the sphere of Canadian politics. Erin O'Toole spoke to CBC about her year of mistaken identity -- and how she found out that the two Erin O'Tooles share more than just a name.

SOUNDCLIP

ERIN O'TOOLE: [chuckling] It's funny because it did kind of unfold over the course of about an hour. I woke up, and at this point in the pandemic, had just started working from home. And I'm having my coffee, playing with the dogs and seeing all of these notifications pop up again and again. I'm not that popular on social media, so this was sort of unusual. And it just kept happening. I would say I started getting 20 messages in the first hour and then maybe 100 in the second hour. And then I just went, oh, my gosh, what's going on? Yeah, that's when it dawned on me something had happened. I went and checked online and saw that Erin O'Toole had been elected leader of the Conservative Party. And I went, that's it!

GLORIA MACARENKO: Erin O'Toole by the same spelling as well. So that was... that was last year. So you've had some fun with this over the past year, haven't you? What have been some of your… your favourite interactions.

EO: [chuckle] Well, I've really learned, you know, that people are very engaged with politics, and they've been really happy to, you know, kind of walk me through how it's different from U.S. politics. I've gotten into conversations about whiskey with people. I've gotten shipments of candy. And I think maybe that's one of my favourite things. People have kindly sent me cases of coffee crisp. [GM chuckles] And I have to say, you have the best candy. It is far superior to what we have in the States.

GM: Now, what about a phone call that you actually had with the other Erin O'Toole, the Canadian politician?

EO: [chuckling] That came as a little bit of a surprise. And, so his team reached out to me a couple of days after, you know, that election and said, hey, would you be interested in interviewing the other Erin O'Toole? And I said, of course, absolutely. And that was a great little conversation. You know, Gloria, we really stuck to comfortable things. We stayed away from politics. Mostly we talked about, you know, beer and the local pride [GM chuckles] that we all have in our breweries. But he was just really, really actually fun to talk to. I found him much more approachable than many U.S. politicians. I will say that.

GM: I see. Any... any similarities between the two Erins?

EO: Yes. As a matter of fact, we have the same birthday.

GM: No?!

EO: Yes. I don't know how I discovered this. I just stumbled across this maybe on Wikipedia. When I saw that, it absolutely blew my mind.

CH: Colorado radio host Erin O'Toole speaking with Gloria Macarenko, host of "On The Coast," about having the same name and birthday as Conservative Party leader Erin O'Toole.

[music: folk]

David Roberts obit

Guest: Greg Child

CH: Since the death of David Roberts this month, it's become very clear that the mountaineer and writer was much-loved. Other adventure writers attribute the genre to him. His former students describe his classes as life-changing. And those who climbed with him climbed high -- figuratively and, of course, literally. Mr. Roberts gave much to many. But in a 2018 interview, he made it clear that he saw his pursuits as self-serving, too.

SOUNDCLIP

DAVID ROBERTS: Adventure is pretty selfish. It doesn't, for the most part, do other people much good. You can't simply weigh your own feelings. Do the joys outweigh the sorrows? I think you have to take into consideration that people who are waiting at home, and who will be devastated if you don't come back. It took me, believe it or not, it took me about 25 years to see that. We climbers, we adventures, really did want to escape the rat race, the petty pace from day-to-day, and get away from it all, and get to a place where things really mattered, where the decisions you made had a huge impact and consequences.

STEVE PAULSON: So the danger is a big part of why you do it?

DR: Yeah, you can't… you know, some climbers have said it would still be glorious if there were no danger. That's just nonsense. If there were no danger, it would just be a game.

CH: Adventure writer David Roberts, speaking with Steve Paulson of Wisconsin Public Radio in 2018. Greg Child is an Australian-born mountaineer, author, and filmmaker -- and the man David Roberts described as his "go-to partner for serious exploring in the Southwest." We reached him in Ten Sleep, Wyoming.

PA: Greg, first of all, just to begin, I'm really sorry for your loss.

GREG CHILD: Thank you. I appreciate you saying that, as many people who really feel the loss of David, nonetheless, his wife, Sharon.

PA: What goes through your mind when you hear that... that clip of David speaking about the dangers and the... the purpose and the life of climbing?

GC: Well, I can hear one thing. In his voice, I can hear the illness that best him for the last years.

PA: Yeah.

GC: But the illness never affected his ability to think things through. He'd gone from one end of being a young, committed climber, a mountain climber, where he did have to confront all this puzzle of loss and justifying it. And to now, all those years later, he's writing about it and analyzing it. And I think in the end, David... David thought that perhaps really the risks that are inherent to things like mountain climbing or super hardcore exploration might just not be always worth 'em.

PA: You saw David quite recently in Utah. If I've got that right? What was that last visit like?

GC: That was in the spring of this year. And David was determined to make one last visit to southern Utah. He wanted to go there because it was just such a big part of his life. He loved it. It's a beautiful landscape, and he really appreciated it. He was not well when he... when he was there. But he did... he did it nonetheless. And he couldn't really hike very far. It was very hard for him to get around. He was on oxygen. But he managed to sit on the rim of the canyon and walk a little bit in the bottom of a canyon, and I think it was a parting gesture to a landscape that he just loved. It was always a mystery why... why did he live in Boston if he loved southern Utah so much? [PA chuckles] We often asked him that. Why don't you just pack it up and move to the place that you call your spiritual home? And a big… a big answer he always had was because he was such a prolific writer, and most of the really great libraries that he needed were on the East Coast, he felt compelled to live in places like Boston, where he had access to research papers and things like that. He could always get on a plane and go to southern Utah, but it wasn't so easy to get to the references that he needed.

PA: [chuckling] Yeah, I read somewhere somebody saying that it was like he was exiled to the city, where most people get exiled out into the... into the wilderness. Are there memories you have that really stand out for you today of your so many treks together?

GC: Oh, there's hundreds of memories. Just his joy of sitting on the rim of a canyon and looking down. And we would... we would sit on the edge of a canyon, looking at cliffs and mesa tops with binoculars. And we would try to find things like ancient dwellings or even with binoculars you can sometimes see a petroglyph panel carved into the stone of the cliffs. And he was a little competitive about that, being he'd like to be the first one to see whatever there was to see. And it was a bit of a game. He was... he was a real game player, as in sports. He loved sports. You know, he had this competitive streak in him. [PA chuckles] You know, when it came to writing, He loved to be the first to break the story, too. But I... I have some funny memories of David. He was actually… for as gifted as he was at telling a story. He didn't have much of a practical bone in his body when it comes to handyman stuff. And watching David pitch a tent in the wind on one of our camping trips was just something that me and the other people would just sit and laugh at. [PA laughs] He was always... was all thumbs when it came to things like that.

PA: You know, you hear all these personal stories, and you can scale out and think of all the people that he's had an impact on through his books and the huge reach that they had. Tell us how his career as a writer began?

GC: Well, he was a young guy finishing up college, and he did an expedition to Alaska, climbed with friends a very serious hot route on Mount Huntington. And one of the friends on the climb was killed in an accident. And he decided he would write about this. And he'd never written a book before. And he, in 10 days, pounded out this book. He was like a touch-finger typist, just ticking away with one finger. But in 10 days, he wrote this manuscript, got it published, and that book is still in print. It's called "The Mountain of My Fear," and he never looked back.

PA: What did you learn from him as a... as a fellow writer, not just as a mountaineer?

GC: Well, before I even knew him, I was told by an editor when I was trying to get something published that if I want to write properly about climbing and adventure, what I need to do is write like David Roberts.

PA: Wow!

GC: And I kind of went about like, oh, I suppose I should read David Roberts. So that's when I actually read some of these things. Shortly after, we just met, sort of serendipitously. And he would... he would often write about me and his stories. That's the interesting thing about hanging out with David was he wrote about everything he did. And if you were with him, he wrote about you.

PA: [both chuckle] Well, a few years ago, our producer found this... this post that he wrote about you on his Facebook page. This is from 2016. And I'll just quote from it here. He says, "Greg is a modest fellow. And you have to do your homework to realize that he may be the most accomplished all-around mountaineer of his generation. He's also one of the finest and funniest climbing writers of our time. And around campfires, we've dedicated countless hours to solving the ultimate questions. Why are we stranded here in a meaningless universe? Which canyon should we hike tomorrow? You want another Tecate, or shall I open a bottle of red?" [GC chuckles] I wonder, in hearing that, how many of those questions were you two able to answer?

GC: Oh boy, did we answer any of them?! Maybe we had too many Tecates. [both laugh] But to go hiking with David, it's hard to think about this being in the past tense now. But to go hiking with David wasn't just plodding around. You were talking the whole time. And you would ponder these questions. And all of the answers are in his books.

PA: Well, and we were lucky to have him to... to chronicle that world. Thank you for this, Greg. Really appreciate it.

GC: No, thanks for having me.

CH: Greg Child is a mountaineer, adventure writer, and longtime friend of David Roberts. We reached him in Ten Sleep, Wyoming. Mr. Roberts died last week. He was 78.

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August 26, 2021 Episode Transcript

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