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The Current Transcript for August 12, 2021

Host: Laura Lynch

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

Already, no fans, no spectators, no family and friends will be allowed to be there. Not exactly how I imagined my first Paralympic would be, but it is still very exciting.

LAURA LYNCH: The Olympians have only just arrived home, but now the Paralympians will soon be winging their way to Tokyo and they're ready to put their pandemic training to the test. We'll speak with two athletes gearing up to perform in front of the cameras, but without crowds in about 30 minutes. And later this morning.

SOUNDCLIP

Speaker 3: The sound that's most recognisable as a call, don't you, don't you come around here and it's like this [squeaks].

LL: OK, that's not the only imitation of a bird Jonathan Meiburg did in his conversation with Matt Galloway. That's in about an hour. What kind of bird that was, what other sound that makes and why it is both fascinating and ecologically important. But we begin this morning with a guilty verdict in a Chinese courtroom. I'm Laura Lynch, in for Matt Galloway. And this is The Current.

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This Canadian spent two years detained in China. He knows what Michael Spavor might be going through

Guests: Kevin Garrett, Lynette Ong

LL: Today is the 976 day that Canadian Michael Spavor has spent in detention in China, and it was only this week he learnt his sentence. A court in Dandong handed him 11 years in prison, a fine and a deportation order. He was found guilty of espionage, a charge Canadian officials have called baseless, in retaliation for the arrest of Huawei CFO Wend Manzhou in 2018. Herhearing for extradition to the U.S. began this week. Kevin Garrett spent just over two years in a Chinese prison on similar charges before being convicted and deported in 2016. His wife, Julia, was also detained but was released before him. We've reached Kevin Garrett this morning in Edmonton. Hello.

KEVIN GARRETT: Good morning. How are you, Laura?

LL: Fine, thank you. What went through your mind hearing that Michael Spavor has been sentenced to 11 years in prison?

KEVIN GARRETT: I was just incredibly saddened because I know what happened with me when they setenced me to eight years in prison for exactly the same charges, for espionage. It was just like, 'How did they get it so wrong? And they really going to go through with this?' And it's just- It's a horrible feeling. I know even exactly where he is. He's in the same detention centre I was in. So I understand really completely what's going through his mind.

LL: Yeah, I was thinking about that because Your trial was also in the same courthouse, so I'm wondering what kind of memories that triggers for you watching this all unfold.

KEVIN GARRETT: Well. They're not good memories, that's for sure. But I go through the same feelings again. I think, like, what was it like when I walked through that courthouse and I was really almost dragged in. It was just like, no, I don't want to do this, I don't want to go here. And you know put in this little padded cell in the courthouse — it was more like a closet — waiting for the, you know, to be taken actually to the courtroom. And it was an all day affair for me. I know for Michael Spavor, it was just a couple of hours, but it was just a horrible feeling. And it was a closed trial the same as his.

LL: That day when your trial was being held, you speak the language, and you had an interpreter. Did you really understand what was going on?

KEVIN GARRETT: Oh, no, I did not understand what was going on. And I mean, I kept saying, 'Can I talk now? Can I get my side?' — and 'No, you can't talk now' or 'You can talk now, well you can't talk to your lawyer.' And you know, it was a very, very confusing time. Even though I had a lawyer, I only met him a couple of times. And he was good and he did what he could, but it was very difficult. You could see the whole thing was orchestrated and I wasn't really a part of it.

LL: And when the sentence was pronounced, do you remember what that moment was like?

KEVIN GARRETT: That was almost five months later after my actual trial. And it was like a big heavy sigh of like, "Oh no, not eight years in prison." Because someone I was in the detention centre as someone who had been to the big prison, they call it before and say, so what? What's it like? And they said, well, if this is heaven where we are now, the big prison is hell. So and I didn't want to experience hell.

LL: And eventually you didn't have to, you were deported two days after your sentence.

KEVIN GARRETT: Yeah, exactly. 36 hours later, I was deported. And, you know, even that I was told I might be deported. You know, The Canadian embassy officials who were actually able to attend the verdict hearing said you could be deported as early as Thursday, and this is Tuesday afternoon. But they really didn't know, and they basically were saying, until we see you on the plane, we won't know.

LL: So you have some some rather unique insights into what Michael Spavor's going through. How do you think he is reacting to what happened yesterday?

KEVIN GARRETT: I think in shock, I think he's numb. He probably had very little notice to the verdict hearing. I had no notice. I was actually They came to my cell and said "You're going to court," and I said, "What do you mean? I knew nothing about this." And then it happened. So I don't know if he had notice or not, but he would have been preparing himself, knowing for months it would be coming at some point. And what I did as well.

LL: We know this sentence has been condemned by Canadian officials. I'm wondering how satisfied you are with how the Canadian government has handled the situation.

KEVIN GARRETT: You know, I'm happy to say that I think they've done more than they did in our case. I think they've been more vocal about it, more condemning about it, which I think is really good. But in a sense, their hands are tied because they there's not much pressure they can put on the Chinese government to to make them change their minds. And it is a political decision, not a judicial decision.

LL: Now, the foreign affairs minister, Marc Garneau, says Canada will appeal the sentence. I'm wondering, given your experience with the Chinese legal system, do you think that'll change anything?

KEVIN GARRETT: It this means he'll go back to trial, there'll be months of, you know, preparing for trial again and then, you know, probably the same thing. I mean, if we look at Mark Schoenberg's case, you know, he appealed his sentence and I was at the execution sentence was upheld. So I don't have a lot of hope in the appeal because, you know, what I've seen even when I was in prison with different inmates, I don't I'm not very hopeful for it.

LL: Now, of course, in the background of all of this is the hearing, the main extradition hearing for Whiteway CFO Meng Wanzhou. It got underway this week in Vancouver, the main hearing. Do you think the Canadian government should consider releasing Meng Wanzhou if only it would guarantee the release of Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig?

KEVIN GARRETT: Well, I mean, then we're the governments interfering in our judicial system, right, and our agreements with the U.S. So I don't think they can or should interfere. I think it's on the U.S. part to decide, well, we don't want to extradite or no. I think really they have to make that decision because they started this process.

LL: So what do you think the answer is, just let the process play out?

KEVIN GARRETT: I'm really not sure I know there are a lot of behind the scenes talks going on, and I know there were for my release as well, and I know mine almost didn't happen, but it really happened at the last minute. That's probably why it was so sudden. So I would put my hope in the behind the scenes talks. But for me, I know we had thousands of people praying for us, and I believe that's really why I was released.

LL: Were you aware of that, though?

KEVIN GARRETT: No, I was not aware at all. I knew nothing was near nothing the whole time I was there.

LL: Well, then I'm curious to know, have you tried to reach out or communicate with Michael Spavor or Michael Kovrig?

KEVIN GARRETT: Yeah, I mean, I can try to send a letter to the embassy or something, but are they delivered? I'm not sure. Are they able to deliver them? I'm not sure. I know the family gets messages through but I'm not sure if they're sending, you know, essentially strangers' letters or not. But I have tried, for sure.

LL: And I know that you experienced dark days in that prison. So tell us what do Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig need from Canadians right now?

KEVIN GARRETT: They need encouraging notes. They need to know, even if they don't receive the letters, that people are sending letters. Not only to the Canadian government, but to the Chinese embassy in Ottawa. They need to be sending notes to the Canadian embassy in Beijing, just hoping that some of these notes will get through to them and they will be encouraged by that, knowing that people are standing behind them, doing what they can from afar, and that they're holding on to hope.

LL: Kevin Garrett, thank you for sharing your memories and your insights with us.

KEVIN GARRETT: You're welcome, yeah. There's more, of course, much more details in our book called To Tears on the Window that People Can Hear after the Pick.

LL: Thanks a lot. Bye bye.

KEVIN GARRETT: You're welcome. Bless you.

LL: As Kevin Garrett said, he's the co-author with his wife Julia of the book Two Tears on the Window: An ordinary Canadian couple disappears in China.

SOUNDCLIP

I think Canadians understand the complex relationship that we have with China. I think that they understand that we are doing everything possible to secure the release of the two Michelsen, that we will continue to do so, and that we will argue, as we have from the beginning, for clemency in the case of Robert Schellenberg.

LL: and that is Canada's foreign affairs minister Marcano. He says intense discussions are currently underway with the United States to help free both Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig. I'm now joined by Lynette Ong. She is an expert on Chinese politics and associate professor at the Monk School of Global Affairs at the University of Toronto. Good morning.

LYNETTE ONG: Good morning, Laura.

LL: First off, I just want to get your reaction to what we've just heard from Kevin Garrett. How does his experience compare to what Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig are likely going through?

LYNETTE ONG: I think they'll experience a similar, but also quite different, so we know that the cases of Kovrig and Spavor are a lot more politicised. They are a political game from day one. So, you know, even though in both cases those charges are trumped up. But I think in the case of two Michael's, they are they have more political stakes at game.

LL: And so what does that mean? And does that mean their treatment would be different?

LYNETTE ONG: It is very hard to say because, you know, on the one hand, because simply because they are so politicised, it could be used as to put it very bluntly, you know, political chips for China or the United States. But it could also mean that because it's so politicised, it attracts so much international attention, they might receive better treatment. So it could go either way.

LL: Well, we know that Kevin Garrett, as he said, he was deported days after being convicted. Let's compare that. How likely is that to happen to Michael Spavor's case?

LYNETTE ONG: Well, you know, Spavor was convicted a day or two ago. You know, he hasn't deported. So that is not likely to happen any time soon. And again, if we see this as a political bargaining game from day one, you know, much was also depends on what happened in Vancouver with Miss Meng's Trial.

LL: Right. And so Minister Garneau mentioned Canada is currently in these intense discussions with the U.S. What kind of pressure could the U.S. offer or enticement at this stage?

LYNETTE ONG: You know, I think the U.S. and China is locked in intense competition all over many, many areas from military trade, commercial technology, and this is to them is another thorny issue in the midst of everything. So I'm sure this is how the US government is seeing, they are seeing the big picture and even though from our perspective, just takes political priority over everything else. So in that sense, what what sort of inducement or sticks the U.S. authorities could give to China, I think really depends on the entire picture. And I think it brings a lot more complicated. But I think having said that, I'm sure, you know, otherwise doing everything they can to put pressure as well as to negotiate with issue has come to pass in the last couple of months, especially to secure their releas.

LL: Well, that we do know that while these charges came out, President Trump was in office, there was some hope or suggestion that President Biden might do something and withdraw the charge. Are you suggesting that this this is just not a priority for the Americans when it comes to China?

LYNETTE ONG: No, I am not saying that at all. I am saying that the US authority has a lot to consider. And the bigger picture of dealing with China as a rising competitor, I think this is amongst many, many priorities that they are grappling with. And of course, things looks very differently from our perspective. I have no idea what is going on behind the scenes. But but I think under President Biden, we are in a much favourable position compared to President Trump. I think, you know, Biden's position, his foreign policy is one of rallying all the Western allies in order to deal with China effectively, whereas under President Trump, he was very much a unilateral approach, which is not in our favour at all.

LL: The other thing we saw this week, this dramatic scene of diplomats from 25 countries standing together in solidarity with Canada at its embassy in Beijing as the sentence came down. How is a display like that likely to be received by Chinese leadership?

LYNETTE ONG: You know, so China condemned things they accuse Canada of trying to ganging up against them. But I think this also shows that China is feeling the pressure of Western allies with the 25 countries coming together and to show the solidarity behind the two Michaels. So things are very different now compared to, say, a year ago when we seemed when Canada was seen as a, you know, fighting for the release of the two Michaels very much alone. Now we have got the backs of 25 countries. So I think we are in a much stronger position than before.

LL: Will it make a difference?

LYNETTE ONG: You know, hard to say, hard to say, but but the fact that, you know, I think deportation features a sentence of Sparboe, I think to me is a good sign. I have no inside information how this will actually pan out, but I think this opens the possibility of him coming home in the near future. And let's not give up the hope just yet.

LL: I'm curious to know from your perspective, how do you think all of this is being seen by the general Chinese public? Would they be feeling the same way the Chinese leadership does? Or do they see a difference in between between the way Manganaro is being treated, being kept under house arrest and her very expensive home in Vancouver and and Michael Sparer, Michael Carvery, who are being held incommunicado in jail, do they see the difference or do they follow what the leadership is saying?

LYNETTE ONG: I think there's no universal views because, you know, the Chinese public is a motley crew and depending on education level of access to the outside world, the information that they possess. But I think, you know, most Chinese does not view the detention of Ms Meng in Vancouver favourably because they see that as Canada being ill bought by the United States to do its bidding. And recently, I've been told that, you know, Tim Horton is trying to expand into China and is actually doing pretty well. He has got, you know, very good plans, strong plans of expanding his branches. Now does commercial interest. And I think the confidence being exerted on that front suggest that the Chinese public in general still view Canada in a favourable light. So I think overall, the picture is rather mixed. As a whole, I think Chinese public view Canada in the more favourable, much more favourable than they view of the United States. Things could also change very quickly.

LL: But I gather that's probably unlikely to make much difference to the leadership.

LYNETTE ONG: Yes, that is not going to make much of a difference. Nationalism is often a double edged sword, but the leadership can often, you know, shape the propaganda to shape public opinion.

LL: The conservative leader, Erin O'Toole, said this week that we're approaching a point where it just won't be safe for Canadians, even Olympic athletes, to travel to China. I'm wondering what you think of that.

LYNETTE ONG: You know, I think this kind of Jamkaran going on, political game going on between the parties, each accusing each other of not doing enough or saying or seeing too much, there's some element of truth to that, but there's also a lot of exaggeration. So I wish, with the politics and just deal with these cases is as they are. I think bringing the Olympics into this picture would really complicate things and take it to a much, much more, a much higher level. You bring in a lot of stakeholders, sports athletes, you know, commercial interests. And there might or might not agree with this sort of very punitive action, high high profile punitive action against against China.

LL: What do you think would happen, though? Well, how would China retaliate there? I know we're speculating, but if it's in your mind, it's worth what what would possibly happen?

LYNETTE ONG: It would there might be in a in a very major way that would be seen as a major loss of face. And I and I wouldn't even, you know, start to entertain that possibility. To my mind. I think I'm not sure we should be considering that as an option at all at this stage.

LL: All right. Well, then but there still have been some calls for Western countries to take a stronger line against China over this case and other human rights concerns. What kind of measures do you think are most likely to be effective?

LYNETTE ONG: You know, I think it is very true that I think the United States, Canada and Western countries and the world as a whole should think about how to deal with China as a rising power effectively. I mean, very soon it is going to become not only [unintelligible] authoritarian country, but the largest economy in the world. And I don't think we have an effective strategy to deal with it. So far, it has been very, very piecemeal. And even with Magnitsky Act, you know, that hasn't worked at all. It has invited, you know, a series of strategies, but it has not worked, you know, to turn, you know, important outcome to our favour. I think this is a fundamental question that policymakers, rather, should be thinking about, which is come up with an overall effective strategy to deal with China and China today is also different from Russia or the Soviet Union during the Cold War. I mean, the nature of the economy is different. And I would argue that we are more reliant, a lot more reliant on China right now than we were on the Soviet Union. You cannot just, you know, just draw a line in the sand and divide the world two parts. It is very much intertwined. This is a very difficult, very challenging policy issue.

LL: You mentioned the Magnitsky Act, a feature of which are sanctions and penalties. So you you're you're suggesting a much more refined approach. It's the million dollar question. Do you have any idea what the future of a refined approach would be?

LYNETTE ONG: So I think politicians are very drawn to symbolic politics. You know, things are the things that, you know, Magnitsky sanctions, a high profile that will make the headlines and make them look strong. And some segments of the population like to see the politicians appearing strong. But whether or not that would actually be effective I think is highly questionable. And I think more effective things would be thinking about how do we restructure our supply chain to make ourselves less vulnerable and, you know, be able to protect ourselves in some key industries, which is what the Chinese is already doing. I think that sort of long term thinking, even though much harder is would be a lot more effective than those, you know, noisy, symbolic politics, which would win a couple of votes.

LL: Lynnette Ong, thank you for your time.

LYNETTE ONG: Right, thank you so much.

LL: Lynette Ong is associate professor of Political Science at the School of Global Affairs. The CBC News is next. And then.

SOUNDCLIP

It has given me a rare opportunity to really put in a lot more time at the gym. So I'm stronger than I've ever been and I'm ready.

LL: The Paralympians are ready, but is Tokyo ready for another round of international arrivals and another spectacle of sport? In six minutes, two very excited athletes and Canada's chef de mission for the Paralympic Games. I'm Laura Lynch and you're listening to The Current.

Back To Top »

Paralympians keeping spirits high despite unusual circumstances

Guests: Stephanie Dixon, Jessica Frotten, Jeremy Hall

LL: Hello, I'm Laura Lynch, and you're listening to The Current. Still to come, the Caracara bird has sparked wonder in the likes of Charles Darwin and the poet Pablo Neruda. It has been maligned, insulted, marvelled over. Now it will be imitated in the conversation between Matt Galloway and author and bird enthusiast Jonathan Meiburg. We'll have that for you in about 30 minutes. But first, one set of athletes has left Tokyo behind while another group prepares to arrive.

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LL: Now that the Summer Olympics are over, all eyes are on the Paralympics. The flame will be lit once again in less than two weeks to welcome athletes from around the world, including 128 athletes from Team Canada who have been training hard for their shot in Tokyo. Two of them join me now. Jessica Frotten competes in wheelchair racing. We've reached her in Regina. And Jeremy Hall is a para rower. He joins us this morning from Victoria, where he is squeezing in some last minute training. Good morning to you both.

JESICCA FROTTEN: Good morning.

JEREMY HALL: Good morning.

LL: I was just wondering how it feels to be heading to your very first Paralympics.

JESICCA FROTTEN: Oh, it's so very exciting. It's all really sinking in now. I do wish it was the most strange Olympics, but I'm really proud and excited.

LL: And Jeremy, how about you? This is your first Olympics as well.

JESICCA FROTTEN: Yes, it is. And the excitement is really starting to build now and try to temper that a little bit over the past few weeks, not to get too excited ahead of time, but really starting to to to come to fruition now.

LL: So I'm just because let's start with your backstory here. What first got you interested in the sport of wheelchair racing?

JESICCA FROTTEN: It was I was really just kind of looking for a way to stay active after my accident and I got to try a whole bunch of different passports and I really just fell in love with racing.

LL: Right. And so you had a spinal cord injury. What was it about the racing that meant so much to you after your injury?

JESICCA FROTTEN: I just loved how how technical it was and, you know, making the little changes to take it a little bit faster. And and, yeah, I also like the fact that it's individual sport and everything that I, I put into it is mine.

LL: Was it was it like a first person, first love at first sight for you and you got into the racing wheelchair and headed down or did it take a while.

JESICCA FROTTEN: Oh not quite. I the first thing that happened was I sat in the race or I flipped right over backwards, you know, so I definitely it, it took a long time to get it all figured out, but I'm pretty dialled in now.

LL: And that shows your determination. Jeremy, can you tell us how you found your passion for rowing?

JESICCA FROTTEN: Yeah, I started actually my first my start in Paris for it actually was in sledge hockey, played up for a few years and just kind of realised it wasn't probably going to be, you know, the sport that was going to carry me to the next level. And so I was kind of guided into and pushed towards rowing, which actually ended up being the perfect fit.

LL: And why.

JESICCA FROTTEN: So I'm relatively tall, powerful guy. And so sledge hockey tends to favour kind of the the the amputees and the smaller frames sometimes where, you know, being tall and powerful is something that really shines through in rowing.

LL: And a lot of upper body strength, I imagine. Yeah. Jeremy, there is so much hard work involved in getting to this point. And during a pandemic, I'm curious about how it's affected your training over the past year.

JESICCA FROTTEN: Yeah, well, initially, you know, when when everything kind of, you know, came down in March of last year, in March of 2020, we we kind of all disbanded and we're training from home. And then, you know, just so for we were we were off the water for about three months and then in June came back to the centre here in Victoria. And we we've been on the water ever since. But it's it's really been a blessing in disguise for my partner and I. We we started our partnership was relatively new. We only joined joined forces in 2019. And so, you know, the extra year has been a huge, huge blessing for us and allowed us to make a lot more progress.

LL: I'm curious though, were there additional challenges you face as a para athlete training during the lockdown that other athletes might not have?

JESICCA FROTTEN: You know, with with throwing actually, we were we were quite lucky in that, you know, we it's an outdoor sport, so we were committed to do a lot. And once we're past that initial phase of training from home, a lot of it was was just, you know, getting out of the water. It was kind of functioning, you know, as normal as possible. But with, you know, all the protocols and schedules and that kind of thing to make sure that we were being as safe as we could and keeping the team and the community safe and well.

LL: What about you needed therapy sessions regularly, and I gather that was difficult to have during the pandemic.

JESICCA FROTTEN: Yeah, yes. Fair enough. So when when we were back home and we were training from home, our therapists were still here in Victoria. And so it was challenging to, you know, to put to push our bodies to those limits and to try to get the most that we can out of them and, you know, build that fitness. But also, you know, balance that with making sure that our bodies are healthy and that we're not pushing ourselves into a hole and causing injury. And so was some just a lot of a lot of self care and some video calls with the with the training stuff, but not a lot of hands on treatment.

LL: I used to live in Victoria and I used to drive by the lake where the rowers were training and it looked so idyllic so often. I'm wondering what it's like for you trading there now.

JESICCA FROTTEN: Yeah, it's pretty special, I know when I first started driving by and kind of thinking like, you know, there's been there's been, you know, a number of Olympians and Paralympians that have trained on this lake before us. And so it's still you know, I still drive in driving past it. Sometimes it's kind of crazy to think you look in the distance and see if you can see some of those those boats out there.

LL: OK, Jessica, your turn. What's it been like for you training during this past year?

JESICCA FROTTEN: Oh, it's been a bit of a wild ride. I was actually in in Florida for a training camp right when the world really shut down. So it was I get home quick kind of situation. And then from there it was it all kind of happened really fast. The Paralympics got postponed and it was a lot of training from home. I do have a pretty amazing team around me supporting me. But in regular competition years, I would have been gone all winter for four warm winter weather training. And it was a it was a lot of indoor training. And I don't know how many times my coach rewrote the plan for competitions that got cancelled or but I think it has given me a really great opportunity to put more time in at the gym. So I'm much stronger than I've ever been. Another silver lining is actually my wheelchair racer got stolen, I guess, just just about a year ago. And if if the Paralympics hadn't happened in 2020, I actually wouldn't have had a racer to race in.

LL: Those things are expensive. How did you get another one?

JESICCA FROTTEN: My family put together a go fund me, actually, and I was able to get a new one and the stolen one has never been recovered,

LL: but the new one is custom made for you. So it's a good fit.

JESICCA FROTTEN: Yeah, it's it's awesome. It's actually better than the old one.

LL: Wow. OK, aside from the impact on your training, I'm wondering how the pandemic's affected the kinds of preparations you have had to make before heading to Tokyo.

JESICCA FROTTEN: It's changed, it's not exactly how I imagined getting ready for the biggest competition of my life, but it's. I'm feeling that it's everything has is going to work out just fine, I haven't had as many competitions, but I did just get out to Quebec for a few and had some really solid races there.

LL: So you decided that you're ready?

JESICCA FROTTEN: Yeah, I am sure.

LL: I mean, let's talk about another aspect of all of this. You're originally from St. Paul, Alberta. Under normal circumstances, you might have had friends or family cheering you on from the stands, but that's not going to be possible this year. How difficult is that for you?

JESICCA FROTTEN: It's challenging for sure, I know my parents were looking forward to coming know coming to Tokyo and watching and I have a lot a lot of friends and family over the years who are saying that, you know, if you make it, I'll be there absolutely 100 percent. But all in all, I know I know they'll be there. I know even now, you know, they're all saying they're going to have watch parties and, you know, everyone's messaging me, asking for race times already. And so there's there's a very large contingent of contingent of supporters around the country. And I know, you know, when I'm on that start line that they'll be they'll be at my back.

LL: And just your friends and family and Regina or your hometown of Whitehorse or they're going to be cheering you on from afar.

JESICCA FROTTEN: Yeah, I'm kind of in the same boat as Jeremy, I would have had all my friends and family come to Tokyo, but they're all going to be screaming at the TVs at whatever hour in the morning it is.

LL: Yeah, but you're going to be competing in an empty stadium. I'm sure you saw what that was like for the Olympics. How do you give yourself up mentally for that?

JESICCA FROTTEN: Ohis competed at empty stadiums before. I think it'll be fine, it's it's going to be different, of course, but we're ready for it.

LL: And, you know, the Japanese government has faced criticism for hosting these games amid the surging covid numbers. It's reporting more than 4000 cases a day in Tokyo on average, and more than 400 Olympics related covid cases were reported. Do you have any concerns about competing in the Paralympics because of that?

JESICCA FROTTEN: I feel like that our team Canada is going to do everything in their power to keep all of us safe and Japan safe, and it's not an ideal situation, but I do feel like the protocols that are in place will protect everyone.

LL: Well, Germany, then what measures are in place that make you feel safe?

JESICCA FROTTEN: Jeremy, yeah, sorry, you know, I think, all in all, the with with with the Olympic side having been there and and, you know, many I have many friends on the Olympic team with with rowing because we train alongside each other on Elk Lake here in Victoria. So hearing hearing their version and some of our support staff who've already been there and coming back, you know, I think there's a lot of assurance in, you know, things being us being protected and, you know, also protecting the population of Japan as well. And so, you know, it sounds like it's the protocols are pretty strict with with wearing masks and where you're able to venture to and kind of the restrictions around, you know, travel, you know, within the you know, from from the village to the venue and back to the village. And so I think, you know, from what I sound, it sounds like I'm quite confident that that we're, you know, the right things are being done to protect everyone.

LL: All right. Aside from your competitions, both of you, what are you each looking most forward to? Jessica, let's start with you.

JESICCA FROTTEN: Oh, I'm I'm just looking forward to the whole experience, you know, getting on my team gear in the mail and just coming out and being a part of Team Canada and just taking it all in. Jeremy.

JEREMY HALL: I'm right there with you or, you know, with that with that comment, and it's all about, you know, taking in the the experience and making sure that you soak it all in. And I mean, you know, entering the village and living in that environment is is something here that that few or just the entire Olympic or Paralympic experiences is something that few athletes get to experience. And so it's all about just soaking that in and taking it in for what it is.

LL: Well, I'm sure I'm not alone in wishing you both the very best of luck. Thank you for talking to me.

JEREMY HALL: Thank you.

JESICCA FROTTEN: Thanks for having us,

LL: Jessica Frotten and Jeremy Hall spoke to me from she was in Regina. Jeremy Hall is a para rower. He was in Victoria. They'll both be representing Team Canada at the upcoming upcoming Paralympics. And my next guest is also preparing to head to Tokyo. Stephanie Dixon is Canada's chef de mission for the 2020 Paralympic Games being held in 2021. She is also a 19 time Paralympic medallist in swimming and she joins us today from Whitehorse. Good morning.

STEPHANIE DIXON: Good morning.

LL: What are you hearing from the Team Canada athletes as they head into the Paralympics?

STEPHANIE DIXON: Well, the tone is very similar to what we just heard from Jessica. And Jeremy at the ready, and I've been so incredibly impressed at the lack of complaint coming forward from our athletes over the last year about how these games won't be the same as other games and and worries about covid, it's been more of a tone of resilience and adaptability and creativity. And the overarching feeling I'm getting from athletes is gratitude that they still get to go over to Tokyo to do what they love, to attempt to inspire the world and just very grateful and see these games as a gift.

LL: But we do know that they've been facing challenges. We heard that from Jessica and Jeremy. I'm wondering what other stories you've heard about the challenges athletes have had to overcome during their training during a pandemic?

STEPHANIE DIXON: Yeah, of course. I mean, the last year and a half has been so challenging for every single one of us around the world and in various degrees and and being an athlete and trying to train, I think that there's no one one story for all the athletes. It's very individual. And, you know, as as Jeremy had mentioned, whether you're in an outdoor sport or an indoor sport really will make quite an impact on how the pandemic affected our athletes. But but the resilience and adaptability was there. And Jeremy had talked about training at home. And so for a lot of athletes who were in indoor sports or who would have met up with their teams, they created home gyms and funding from the Canadian sports system that would have funded training camps outside competitions, helped athletes set up those home gyms and and be able to still train from home. And I love hearing for both Jessica and Jeremy that this extra year has been a gift. There are a lot of athletes that would not have made it to these games had they happened a year ago. And so I think that athletes are designed to focus on what they can control and and to focus on those positives. So whether it's nursing an injury or getting another racing chair because there has been stolen or focussing on your mental health athletes, while a hundred percent this past year has been incredibly challenging. We've also seen incredible resilience.

LL: And when you see the case, the surge in cases and covid-19 in Tokyo and also the number of cases during the Olympics, how much of that is a concern amongst the athletes?

STEPHANIE DIXON: I haven't heard concerns about covid because I think that, you know, there was 400 cases in the Olympics, but that was that was from tens of thousands of people in that Olympic bubble. And I think we saw the measures working quite well in the Games. And these are a bubble wrapped Olympic and Paralympic Games. So having no contact with the public of Japan because, of course, the the citizens of Japan, Tokyo in particular, are of a high priority as well. But the athletes are very happy with with the protocols that are in place and at the Paralympic Games, we will take those protocols to the next level.

LL: Now, can you tell us about some of the health and safety measures in place, especially for athletes with immunocompromised conditions?

STEPHANIE DIXON: Yeah, we're very aware that in the Paralympic Games we have a number of athletes who are immunocompromised and more vulnerable to either contracting covid or the symptoms that that they would experience. And so the protocols will look very similar to the Olympics. But as I said, just taking them to another level. So avoiding group gatherings and this will be at the Paralympic Games, even within the sport bubbles. So I think at the Olympics, we saw you didn't see a lot of big gatherings of people, but amongst the sports in there from their own countries, people would gather in groups and we just won't see that at the Paralympic Games, trying to make sure that as many of our athletes can sleep in single rooms as possible, especially those who who are immunocompromised, we'll do things like Team Orientation's online. Thank goodness for Zoom. This has been such a gift in this past year and a half. So even though we'll all be in Tokyo, in the village together, we will do a lot of our interactions over Zoom and that's how we will gather in groups and still have that sense of unity. So we have like a Facebook page for all the athletes and we'll have tons of zoo meetings because we still want even though there will be a lot of social distancing, that's one of our main measures. And as well as sanitising in the face mass, of course, we want the athletes to still feel unity and like they're on Team Canada. So so we are being aware of that as well. And vaccinations, you know, that is one of the greatest mitigating strategies and almost the entire Canadian delegation will be fully vaccinated. So we're feeling very good about that.

LL: I'd like you to listen to a comment from Annie Sparrow. She teaches population health, science and policy at Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York. She has been calling for more health measures at the Tokyo Olympics and Paralympics. This is some of what she had to say.

Speaker 4: Quote, It is surging in Japan that Japan is seeing its highest rates of covid ever and the Paralympic athletes are much more vulnerable. Then Olympic athletes, they're less mobile, they're more likely to be dependent upon support staff, which are denied to them what the whatever the the Paralympic ability is, they are all more vulnerable. We need to be putting in place the measures that are going to be protected against all pathogens and not Deskovic. And that means the structural considerations that get the ventilation right. Let's get the education in place. Let's get the air disinfection in place. Let's put in place the detectors, which tells us The Current is there. Let's start with those things that make the whole context and the whole environment so much safer for everyone.

LL: Stephanie Dixon, what do you make of those concerns?

STEPHANIE DIXON: I think there are, you know, valid concerns, and I I'm really I'm really happy that this is a regular conversation when we are talking about preparing for heading over to Tokyo and not only at a Team Canada level, but also, I mean, Tokyo 2020, the International Olympic Committee. This has been the conversation for more than a year now. And so I do not dismiss these comments at all, but I'm really confident that we are not we're not dismissing the the weight of of this pandemic and that and every athlete who is going to Tokyo from Team Canada is choosing to go. And and so I as far as I'm listening to this professor talk, we also have to keep in mind these are high performance athletes and and also people who the the athletes who are immunocompromised live with that every single day. And and we heard that in in those comments that it's not it's not just covid-19 that is a risk for someone who's immunocompromised. And so those specific athletes who are more vulnerable and at risk, they they have their own mitigating strategies as well. And they help us to help them in what feels comfortable for their day to day life. But these are Paralympians. They are high performance athletes, and they are going over there to do what they love and they are all doing that by choice. And I'm very, very confident in the strategies that are put in place and that we're doing everything that we can to keep our athletes safe. And from our athletes there, they're pumped in, they're ready. They're excited to go over and especially watching these success. Yeah, well, their Olympic Games, there's love that

LL: is a challenge. You've got about 30 seconds left. Canada at its best, Summer Olympics ever, ranking 11th in the medal count. What are we going to expect from the Paralympians?

STEPHANIE DIXON: Oh, we are going to see our national flag raised. We are going to hear and sing our national anthem. We are going to see performances of a lifetime. Our Paralympians will carry the momentum from the Olympics forward, and they will unite and inspire Canadians and people around the world.

LL: Spoken like a true cheerleader in chief. Thank you, Stephanie Dixon. Thank you so much. Stephanie Dixon is Canada's chef de mission for the 2020 Paralympics, and she spoke to us from Whitehorse. But the Olympics and Paralympics can be a place where dreams come true, even if you're one of the greatest hip hop groups of all time. Back in 2012, during the London Paralympics Public Enemy song, Harder Than You Think was used to promote the games and people loved it. Five years after its original release, the song surged in the charts, topping out at number four, giving the group their first ever top 10 hit in the U.K. Here's Chuck D and Flavour Flav with harder than you think.

SOUNDCLIP

[Song]

LL: That is Public Enemy with harder than you think. And coming up after your regional update, author and bird enthusiast Jonathan Meiburg picks up where Darwin left off in his conversation with Matt Galloway. That's in 90 seconds. I'm Laura Lynch and you're listening to The Current.

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Why it's time to appreciate the caracara, the 'extremely weird' falcon that acts like a crow

Guest: Jonathan Meiburg

LL: I'm Laura Lynch, and you're listening to the Current. The poet Pablo Neruda called them shiftless wanderers of rubbish pits. Charles Darwin said they were false eagles. Others have said they are dirty birds or bad falcons. But some, including Jonathan Meiburg, believe it's not fair that the caracara has been maligned for centuries. Jonathan's fascinating new book is A Most Remarkable Creature The Hidden Life and Epic Journey of the World's Smartest Birds of Prey. Matt Galloway spoke with him earlier this year.

MG: Jonathan, good morning.

JONATHAN MEIBURG: Good morning.

MG: What is a caracara?

JONATHAN MEIBURG: characterise are a group of falcons that live mostly in South America, with one notable exception that's made its way north a bit. But unlike the Falcons that you might be thinking of, when you think of one like a peregrine falcon or Kestrel or Merlin, characters are a bit more in their behaviour like crows. It's almost as if you imagine building a set of 10 crows on a Falcon chassy and they occupy these kinds of scavenging opportunist niches, mostly in South America, which does not have crows. And there are just an incredible example of the flexibility of the world of birds to produce different kinds of minds and intelligences. And I think they've been unsung for far too long.

MG: Tell me more about - for people who've never seen one of these birds before, and it's true, you compare them to a crow, sort of like - describe them or what they look like.

JONATHAN MEIBURG: Well, the species that first piqued my interest and that also piqued Darwin's interest when he met them in 1833 in the Falkland Islands is called Striated caracaras. And these birds look something like a very handsome combination of a raven and maybe a red tailed hawk. They're dark, brownish black, but the adults have these fine white streaking eyes on their on their neck, a sort of clear blue, grey bill, yellow legs, these handsome little chestnut trousers that they look like a crow that's really gotten dressed up for a special occasion.

MG: What are they sound like? What's their call like? I mean, and again, you kind of articulate it in the book, but I'm saying it in my head and I'm not sure if I'm saying it correctly. So what do they sound like?

JONATHAN MEIBURG: Well, they make a lot of different sounds. That species has the sound that's most recognisable as a call, a duetting call the parents tend to make together when they're asserting that 'this is our territory' or 'this is our food' or 'don't you come around here and it's like this, [vocallizes]. But they also make a number of other sounds, including some wonderful little what they call contact calls when they're just hanging out together. It's almost like a private conversation and those tend to be more sort of chucks and clucks [makes clucking sounds] and like almost chicken sounding. They're very vocal. And there are some species of caracaras that, notably one called the crested caracara, which is common throughout South America and actually there's one species of these that actually has been seen in Canada not too long ago.

MG: Hmm.

JONATHAN MEIBURG: Yeah, they've they've turned up in Alberta. There's one that hung out in Nova Scotia for a couple of years. I think that species is moving north. But the call of this bird is really distinctive. And it may be where the name Caracara comes from because one person compared it to dragging a stick along the top of a picket fence. It's like that [makes birds' sound]. And when they make this sound, they throw their heads so far back that they'd actually touch, they almost touch their backs. And Darwin said, because he saw them, that this fact, which has been doubted, is quite true. I have seen a bird with its head in a nearly inverted position.

MG: When did you start to become obsessed with these birds?

JONATHAN MEIBURG: In 1997 I had a travelling fellowship called the Thomas J. Watson Fellowship after college, which was very I was very lucky to receive this fellowship because it lets you design a project in one or more nonusers countries that you've never been to before and pursue it for a year. And my project was supposed to be a study of community life at the ends of the earth amongst humans. One of the places that I went was the Falklands, because it was geographically and culturally extremely isolated. And while I was there, I realised that you could see penguins on their breeding grounds. And I thought, well, I shouldn't pass up the chance to do this. So I went to see the penguins. And while I was looking for the penguins, this group of these large, dark birds of prey came running across the ground toward me. And I had never heard of these birds. I'd never seen them. I didn't know anything about them. But they just ran right up to me, staring at me as if to say, what are you and how can we make use of you? And I was just so struck by the way they they seemed to feel that they had every right to be here, as much right to be here as I did. And from that moment, I that was really where my interest started. And then I got lucky enough to become part of a survey of breeding pairs of these birds in the outer islands of the Falklands, which was just in almost indescribably remote feeling places because they're almost 800 islands in the Falklands, most of them very tiny. And so for a month, I got to go around to these islands on the periphery of the archipelago and see these birds in their breeding grounds amongst giant colonies of albatrosses and penguins and petrels. And I thought, I had no idea that the world could be like this. And my experiences with them there were what led me to the same questions that Darwin had when he met them, which was: what are these? Why are they only here, this particular species, and why are they so intent on stealing objects that have no apparent value to them? They stole hats and compasses and things from the crew of the Beagle, and they they did the same to me. They tried to take the head off my head, sometimes walking. You'd look down and you'd see this big winged shadow appear over you and look up and there'd be one hovering like a foot or two above your head, just looking down as if it wanted to play tag.

MG: That's amazing. I mean, it speaks to, you mentioned Darwin. There's Charles Darwin, there's William Henry Hudson, someone called the Penguin King, who I'll ask you about in a moment. But these are people who also have become obsessed with and pondered the nature of the caracara. You mentioned those questions that Darwin had. What is it? And you've hinted at this, but what is it that makes this bird unique?

JONATHAN MEIBURG: Well, I think more than anything, it's their minds. There's as it as it happens, they're actually quite a number of these birds in captivity in England, which will explain why in a moment. But they they often end up in these small falconry parks, in zoos where they sit they sit alongside all these other birds of prey. But if you go and talk to the keepers at these places, they'll tell you, oh, these are completely different. They we can't train them the way we do. The other birds here in flying demonstrations, they want to do something new all the time, which is extremely weird for birds of prey. They like solving problems. They like finding hidden objects, crawling through things, under things, and they want to interact with us even if they're not hungry, which just sets them apart. And that difference, that mental difference is part of the question that I tried to probe in the book. Why are they like this?

MG: And that's very different from other birds of prey. I mean, you mentioned the peregrine falcon or an eagle or or the red tailed hawk. I mean, that that social nature and the curiosity are different than those other birds.

JONATHAN MEIBURG: Well, there's one bird I talk about in a chapter called The Most Intelligent Bird in the World, which is a nut, not a claim of fact. That's what her keeper called her. Her name's Tina. And she was she played games with her keeper that were really extraordinary.

MG: What do you mean games?

JONATHAN MEIBURG: Well, the the first inkling he really had that there was something very different about her was that he went in to clean out her cage one day and he dropped his keys and she jumped down, ran over, picked them up in her beak and ran to the other side of the cage. And he realised, looking at her, that she wanted to play a game. And so they started playing keep away. He would sort of chase after and she would run to the other corner and he would chase after in the other corner and she would run to the other one. And she didn't seem afraid. She seemed excited by this activity. And eventually he traded them for a piece of food. And from then on, this is how each day began. Another time, Jeff began trying to sort of test the capabilities of her mind by devising different tasks for her to do. And eventually he was able to get her to do the most extraordinary things in front of groups of people who really, I think, didn't appreciate what was going on, but including like he would toss a group of stuffed animals over his shoulder and then say, go find Miss Piggy. And Tina would jump down, run across the ground, pick up Miss Piggy and her beak and come back and drop in the bucket.

MG: The bird, Tina the bird. Just to be clear.

JONATHAN MEIBURG: Yes. And then then he could say, OK, now go get Nemo as she'd go get Nemo. And he even, while she had one in her beak, he could say, wait, I've changed my mind, get this other one. And she'd pick up, you know, Donald Duck. And it seemed that she could she could do this with coloured blocks, distinguishing between colours, distinguishing between shapes. She seemed to have some idea of number. These are just incredible things for a bird of prey to do, because it's a group of birds that haven't been thought of especially brainy in that way by almost anyone, ever.

MG: The other second question that that Charles Darwin asked about these birds is, how did you come to be? I mean, this is a question that I mean, it's like a whole book in many ways. And it goes on for for billions of years. What did you learn about how these birds came to be?

JONATHAN MEIBURG: Well, they let me on this really long journey because I started with hardly any interest in birds at all back in 1997. But trying to answer this question ended up taking me through the history of the landscapes and wildlife of all of South America pretty much. And one of the things that I learnt, which astonished me because it was such a huge fact that I hadn't known about in my life, was that South and North America are extremely different. They have completely different histories and in fact were apart for 100 million years and only joined up at that slender little isthmus of Panama about three to five million years ago, which in geological time is really quite short. When that happened, it was what one palaeontologist called one of the most extraordinary events in the whole history of life, when animals, plants and other living things began to flow between these two continents. And the characters were part of this, the southern world. And so I had to delve into the history of that world and what that place looked like up to that time and then how it was transformed not just by that connection, but by the arrival of humans in both continents starting about 15,000 years ago.

MG: And these are birds that are found throughout South America. I mean, you go to Guyana. What did you see when you went to Guyana and what were you looking for?

JONATHAN MEIBURG: Well, the other nine species of caracaras occur in every single- there's at least one in every single habitat in South America from high deserts in the Andes to the steaming forests of the Amazon. And the guy on the shield, Guyana is a country that's one of the three Guyana Shield countries, Guyana, Suriname and French Guiana, which are sort of sandwiched on the northeastern shoulder of South America between Venezuela and Brazil. They're often left out of discussions about South America in general because they're not really Latin America. Their colonial history was that was no- Guyana used to be British Guyana. Suriname was Dutch and French Guiana is still part of France. They use the euro. You can actually cross a remote range of mountains in northern Brazil and enter the eurozone and risk being eaten by a Jaguar.

MG: And the caracaras that you were looking for there, I mean, these are, they're unique?

JONATHAN MEIBURG: They are the tropical Caracazo. There's three species in particular that are really interesting. There's black caracaras and yellow headed caracaras which tend to stick to the edges of rivers. And, of course, there are very many rivers in the South American tropics. So that's actually quite a lot of habitat. But they don't enter the deep forest that much. The third species does. And the way it's learnt to live in the deep forest, these are called read throated caracaras. And if you see a picture of one there, they look clearly to be- they're much more like a Muppet than a bird of prey. They have this bare red face and throat, these blazing blood red eyes, a yellow tipped blue bill and white feathers around their red legs and then they're black otherwise. They're just they don't look like anything else. And they eat wasps nests. They've learnt to prey on tropical wasps and they eat very little else. And they live in family groups of between three and 15 individuals, multiple males, multiple females. They nest in giant bromeliads hundreds of feet above the forest floor. And they seem to have a very elaborate social life that we don't understand at all.

MG: And to find them, like, you had to trek through the forest for like weeks and weeks to try and see these birds.

JONATHAN MEIBURG: Yes. I mean, it's there, it's funny because in a way, they're not a rare bird or they're not thought to be a rare bird, but they can be strangely hard to find, especially when you're looking for them. So I went up a river called the Rewa, which goes into one of the wildest parts of all tropical South America in the company of three extraordinary Amerindian men from the region, Brian Duncan, Jose George and Rambow Roberts, and then a Canadian scientist named Sean McCann, who is one of very few scientists ever to take an interest in, read through the characters and is responsible for a lot of what we know about them.

MG: Now, what was that like, that track?

JONATHAN MEIBURG: Was completely extraordinary. It takes up almost a third of the book. I remember writing, when I finally did the word count on my notes at the end of that journey, and it was something like 80,000 words like, you know, two thirds the size of the book itself. It was an immersion not only in the world of the characters and their behaviour, but also the entire ecosystem surrounding them that they had entered millions of years ago. And of the people who've lived there for many thousands of years, of whom Brian Jozi and [unintelligible] are descendants. But the interactions between the humans on that trip, as well as between us and the animals that we saw on that trip, was something I'll never, ever forget.

MG: The last question that Darwin asked about these birds is, why are there so few of you? What is the state of the Karaca population?

JONATHAN MEIBURG: Well, that's that. I'm paraphrasing Darwin a little bit there, but he was concerned about why they were only in this one place, because Darwin knew that somehow the distribution of animals on Earth reflected some story and he was trying to unearth what that story was. But Striated Caracaras are the rarest of the group and their population is thought to be around three thousand mature individuals, which would put them in the neighbourhood of giant pandas. But the story that the book unearths is sort of how they got to that particular place, which I don't want to reveal all the details of, because that's kind of the detective story of the book, but it's a combination of environmental factors and planetary processes that have created this polar vortex of winds. They are almost always blowing from the southwest in that part of the world that's isolated them there over, you know, many thousands of years. When we studied the genomes of the characters and try to analyse the relationships, one of the things that you can learn from DNA is not just how distantly related species are from one another, but how long they've been separated. And once you have that information, you can start to say, OK, well, what was going on in the world at that time? Can we make any inferences if we see this split in the lineage at this time? Can we make any guesses about why that might have happened in pursuing that kind of detective stories is what you know is part of what the book is about?

MG: You draw a direct link between not just these birds, but birds generally, and the dinosaurs.

JONATHAN MEIBURG: Oh, yes. I mean, birds are living dinosaurs today. Birds are the descendants of the dinosaurs that lived. And one of the things that I do point out in the book is that one big question that we don't know the answer to is what it was like in Antarctica after the big Cretaceous extinction event. That's when this meteor hits the about the Yucatan and really deals a blow to much of life on Earth. Although obviously, since you and I are having this conversation now, not all of it, but where it all survived and what places were made it possible for animal life to survive on Earth is something we don't entirely know. And I kind of think that Antarctica may have played a much bigger role than than we suspect. The evidence is obscured at the moment as it's covered in ice. But the common ancestor of falcons and parrots who actually are each other's nearest relatives, I think probably lived in Antarctica and the caracaras and their ancestors came up from there.

MG: Who is the Penguin King and what does the penguin thing have to do with the story of the caracara?

JONATHAN MEIBURG: The Penguin King is one of the most entertaining characters in the book, and he was a man named Len Hill from the Cotswolds in England who was sort of this enterprising. Somebody called him a lovable rogue who was just always into one project or another. And he loved birds and always had loved wildlife all his life. And he decided that he was going to build this bird park essentially in his backyard in the Cotswolds, which became one of the most extraordinary bird parks that, as far as I know, has ever existed on earth called Bird Land. There's still a version of it there now, but it was really something in the days when he was running it back in the 60s and 70s. And he took a trip to Antarctica, one of the very first tourist trips ever assembled, to go there and pass through the Falklands on the way. And one thing led to another. And eventually he bought these two islands in the Falklands named Grand Jason and Steeple Jason, which are covered in seabirds and caracaras. And he brought penguins and flightless ducks and Shaggs and caracaras back to England to live in his bird park. And it's because of his efforts that I think that there are so many captive striated caracaras in the UK today. What do you

MG: think his involvement in the story tells us about the possibility of these the survival of these birds?

JONATHAN MEIBURG: Well, this is one thing that I go into late in the book is I try to think about, you know, the book is not my aim was not to say like let's save the Australian caracaras, because that's really a pretty narrow goal in some ways and I don't know if it's possible. They live on islands. There are very few of them. Islands are going to be in trouble as seas rise, but they're so flexible and so adaptable that I think they've really been constrained just by an accident of geography. And if they were set free in a place that gave them more latitude, they might accomplish extraordinary things. I mean, I sort of fantasise about letting them loose in London, and that actually did happen in the sense that birds have escaped in England. And one of them got loose from the London Zoo just a couple of years ago and went on the lam for two weeks in north London. And when he was recaptured in this city, he was completely fine.

MG: What what did he do in North London for two weeks?

JONATHAN MEIBURG: There is some wonderful kind of vox pop moments, but, you know, quotes from the Camden New Journal and things about this. He was seen walking down a high street, quote, ripping into a whole cooked chicken, at one point. When they got him back at the zoo, they said, well, clearly he found plenty of things to eat. He was in good condition.

MG: So climate change is part of the story. And again, you don't want to give everything away, but is there the possibility that we could lose these birds?

JONATHAN MEIBURG: Definitely. They live on islands which are going to get smaller no matter what. Their prey that they depend on in the summertime, especially these seabirds, which are seasonal, they come in and breed and then they leave for the winter, may shift their distribution as the climate changes. If they lost that resource, I don't know that they would survive. They might, but it's a precarious position no matter what. When your population is that small in your range, is that restricted. And the larger point I'm trying to make when I talk about sort of tongue in cheek about introducing them into London is that we may have to change our ways of thinking about wildlife conservation for certain species that we want to survive. But it's up to us. Well, we have this idea that, you know, animals need to live out in this wilderness is like an animal space that they can be safe in. And while we go about our business, but it may be that that's just the wilderness isn't going to exist. There are animals for whom their entire habitat is going to disappear, like the Maldives, for instance. We may need to think about bringing them in with us in some way, as the writer Tim Flannery has talked about this in Australia and New Zealand, it sort of violates some sense that we might have about sort of the sanctity of nature. But nature doesn't regard us in the same way. I mean, there's skunks all over Toronto. There's, you know, raccoons and squirrels and ravens. And I mean, there are animals that have learnt how to deal with us. And it may be that part conservation efforts could rely on basically giving them the chance to do just that.

MG: You said something really interesting earlier on in the conversation, which was about when you got to those remote islands in the Falklands and that you had no idea that the world could be this way. There's a lot there's a lot in this book about wonder and about being open to discovery and being willing to to learn things, what I mean, it sounds obvious in some ways, but what to you is so interesting about that and so intriguing about that idea of wonder?

JONATHAN MEIBURG: Well, I think that our idea of normal is deeply skewed. And look, for instance, in the Guyana's section of the book, one of the ways that we fed ourselves is by fishing in this river and fishing in this river was unlike fishing anywhere else I've ever done it. You just sort of put a hook in the water and pulled it up and there was a fish on it. And this happened over and over and over again, often multiple different kinds of fish, many of them delicious. And it made the river itself seem kind of magical. It's like, what is it about this river that produces all these fish? And then you realise, wait, I'm thinking about this completely wrong. There is nothing special about this river. This is a normal river. This is how rivers all over the world were not very long ago. The way that we think of fishing is a difficult activity is an artefact of what we've done. The fact that animals run away from you is something that they've learnt to do. They don't do it automatically. And when the Falklands are funny, because they're one of the very few places in the entire new world that Europeans can claim to have actually discovered so far as we know. And one of the things that reinforces that fact is that the animals there are so unafraid. Tame isn't really the right word. It's they're not used to you. So they just look at you as a peer almost. And it's like taking a step into the dream time or some time when the humans and animals all lived in a state of equality that they don't live in now. And you realise that this was the world not in some really remote, distant time. This was the world very recently. And if that doesn't give you a sense of wonder, I don't know what to do for you.

MG: There's a line at the end of the book or towards the end of the book and you're off for a walk with somebody. And she says, the more I think about it, the more I think that the world is known is what keeps people from committing to a life of discovery. Do you feel like you've committed yourself to a life of discovery?

JONATHAN MEIBURG: Sort of by accident? These birds led me on this journey. And they're going to continue to lead me on this journey because they made me ask questions about why the world is the way it is that I had never thought about before, the huge facts about the world that I had never been told. I was just struck at the in the end by how limited our educations are as human beings about where we are. And if we can spend a little more time thinking about where we really are in space and in time and in the company of the other creatures with whom we share the planet, I think our approach to life in general will change.

MG: What's the one interaction with these birds that stands out most in your mind?

JONATHAN MEIBURG: Oh, my God. I think it was there was there was one moment the sex isn't in the book where I was working at a trap where you're trying to catch striated caracars, which is incredibly easy, actually just put some meat out and nail it to the ground and have some little nooses attached to it and then just sit there within sight of it and wait. And they come right in. And there were two birds that had decided that this was theirs. This is their meat, and they were going to defend it. And another bird came in and they chased it off. Then it came back and suddenly it looked at them and it changed its posture and dropped its head like it was a little fledgeling, even though it was a fully adult bird and started making the little fledgeling begging, calling oh oh oh oh oh. I'm a little baby. I'm a little hungry baby. And they let it get closer to the trap. But then they're like, now we're not doing this and they shoot it off. So then it flew up to a little perch and sort of sat there staring at them and then it straightened up and it made this other call, ha ha ha ha. Which means, hey, you guys. And suddenly twelve more birds come in and they all swarm the trap. And everybody it's just a melee in a free for all. And we caught the birds we needed and the other ones all just sort of got a few pieces of meat. And it was like you could watch this bird over the course of just a couple of minutes trying these different strategies, like who can I be, what relation can I have to these birds is going to let me get what I want. And it was just, it was stunning.

MG: This is a beautiful book. I really, really, really enjoyed what I learnt. And to your point, kind of being told about things and, you know, questioning things that I had no idea even were out there. Thank you very much for talking to us this morning.

JONATHAN MEIBURG: Thank you so much, Matt.

LL: Matt Galloway spoke with Jonathan Meiburg in June. That's our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for q. Saroja Coelho will be talking to Canadian writer Tim Long -- who has made quite a name for himself south of the border. He has been a writer on Politically Incorrect, head writer on Late Night with David Letterman, and a writer on The Simpsons. He’s been nominated for 13 Emmys and won six of them. Now he's turning his attention back to his Canadian roots with The Exchange, a film he wrote about growing up in Exeter, Ontario. And you may not have guessed, based on Jonathan Meiburg's conversation with Matt Galloway. But he is both a lover of birds... And a musician. His band, Shearwater, was named after the migratory sea bird. I will leave you with their latest -- this is 'You - As You Were' - by Shearwater. I'm Laura Lynch. Thanks for listening to The Current.

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Thursday August 12, 2021 Full Transcript

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