The AIH Transcript For August 10, 2021

[hosts]Nil Köksal, Ali Hassan[/hosts]

NIL KOKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal, sitting in for Carol Off.

ALI HASSAN: Good evening. I'm Ali Hassan, sitting in for Chris Howden. This is "As It Happens".

[music: theme]

AH: Tonight:

NK: The decision stands. A Chinese court has upheld a death sentence against Canadian prisoner Robert Schellenberg. But an advocate for detainees in China tells us there's still a sliver of hope.

AH: Stepping down. After multiple allegations of sexual harassment, New York Governor Andrew Cuomo resigns -- and claims he's just trying to put his state first.

NK: But a Democratic state senator in New York says a resignation is not accountability. And while he says he's relieved to see Mr. Cuomo go, he says this all adds up to "political calculus."

AH: Air force. Saxophonist Dennis "Dee Tee" Thomas helped give Kool & the Gang its iconic sound -- not just on wind instruments, but as the group's M-C. And his bandmates say they wouldn't have been nearly as cool without him.

NK: Global warning. The United Nations' urgent call for climate action isn't one some nations needed to hear. The former president of Kiribati raised the alarm years ago that his Pacific Island country will soon be under water.

AH: And ... Pedal to the medal. Four years ago, Canada's Kelsey Mitchell didn't own a bike. But then she tried cycling with a talent-identification program and found there was a lot to lycra. Now, she's an Olympic champion.

AH: "As It Happens", the Tuesday edition. Radio that's guessing she makes a pretty good spokes-woman.

[music: theme]

Guest: John Kamm

AH: It was a near certainty. But that's no comfort to Robert Schellenberg. A court in China has upheld the death sentence against the Canadian prisoner. Two years ago, while serving 15 years in prison for drug smuggling, Mr. Schellenberg was re-tried and handed the death penalty, following the arrest of Huawei executive Meng Wangzhou. Canada's ambassador to China, Dominic Barton, condemned the judgement and called on China to grant clemency. John Kamm has been advising Mr. Schellenberg's family. He is the head of the Dui Hua Foundation, a humanitarian group that advocates for detainees in China. We reached him in San Francisco.

NK: Mr. Kamm, as I understand it, you exchanged emails with Mr. Schellenberg's family before and after this judgement. Are you able to share what those conversations have been like?

JOHN KAMM: Well, the first conversation yesterday was about the impending judgement. The family had been informed last Wednesday, seven days before the judgement was rendered. And that's not uncommon. Courts typically give the family one week notice so that the family can attend. In this case, the Canadian ambassador attended the trial. This morning, we've exchanged emails, and basically, the gist was that although this outcome was not unexpected, that doesn't change, of course, the fact that this was a cruel blow delivered to the family.

NK: Let's just remind our listeners how Mr. Schellenberg's case got to this point?

JK: He was detained, formally arrested, and then tried for trafficking in drugs.

NK: A charge he denies, we should say. And he says he was tricked.

JK: Of course, he denies it. The court eventually sentenced him to 15 years in prison, but Robert appealed. That turned out to be not such a good decision. In China, the high court can reduce the sentence, or they can simply return it to the lower court, which is what happened in this case because the high court thought that the 15 years was too lenient. Subsequent to that, and very quickly, the intermediate court tried him again, and this time they handed down the death sentence.

NK: Apart from condemning this verdict, which the government of Canada has done, what more do you think Ottawa needs to be doing now?

JK: They have to keep this very much on the front burner of Canada-China relations. It should be raised at every level, at every chance. I'm not sure about this, but they could actually request a meeting with the court to press home these points. Now, Mr. Schellenberg's lawyer will be interacting with the Supreme People's Court. They're the ones that handle death sentences. So I would raise the alarm. I would continue to reference it, condemn it. I would seek meetings with the Chinese government at senior levels, which I'm sure is taking place. I don't know beyond that what can be done. One must impress upon the Chinese government how serious this judgement is and warn of serious consequences. I would also try to get the U.S. involved, right up to the president. Joe Biden himself is against capital punishment. I would try to get the president to speak out against it.

NK: But now that it's gone this far, what could China do here and still save face?

JK: So in 2007, China's Supreme People's Court resumed the power of final review. In 2008, the Supreme People's Court announced that in 2007, 15 per cent of all death sentences were overturned. According to our records, we have a death penalty log, and we are by no means tracking all death sentences. But we have tracked, shall we say, more than a thousand. And according to our estimate, roughly 10 per cent of those hearings, those reviews, resulted in the judgement being overturned. So you can look at it this way. There's a one in 10 chance that this verdict will be overturned, and that should be stressed. It should be stressed to the Chinese government and to the Supreme Court that Canada is well aware that judgements can be overturned. They have been overturned. And, of course, express the sincere hope that Mr. Schellenberg's judgement will be overturned.

NK: What do you think China will want in return, though, from Canada or the United States?

JK: Well, I think China has made that quite clear, not only with this case but with the cases of the two Michaels. You can see that the day that the family was informed, last Wednesday, is the very day that the extradition hearings for Mr. Meng commenced. So I don't think that juxtaposition was coincidental.

NK: Do you think China will settle for anything less than Meng Wanzhou's release or for an end to the extradition process?

JK: Probably not. They're playing a very, very tough game. The milk of human kindness is not flowing from Beijing these days.

NK: We should let our listeners know that Meng Wanzhou's court case is ongoing in British Columbia this week. And Canada's ambassador to China has said he does not think it's a coincidence either that we're seeing these rulings at the same time, as you've said, sir. Another court is due to rule on the case of another Canadian, Michael Spavor, as early as tomorrow. He has been accused of spying, as you know. What are you expecting to see there?

JK: Again, very hard to say. You know, espionage carries the possibility of a death sentence. I don't think that that's what's going to happen. But, you know, it is not outside the realm of possibility. I am hoping for a light sentence, by which I mean three to five years. Ten to 12 years for espionage is not uncommon. So I know there's some expectation on the part of the Canadian ambassador. I understand he has scheduled a press conference. There is some hope or expectation that the sentence will be light. Bear in mind, in the Chinese system, you get credit for time served. I think, frankly, that's the best that can be hoped for. I have certainly let my friends in the Chinese government know that I am following this very closely.

NK: What did they say to you?

JK: They usually don't say anything. [laughing] They basically say the following. China is a country that respects the rule of law. All judgements are handled, all trials are handled, in accordance with the law. That is the answer.

NK: It is an incredibly difficult time for so many families. Mr. Kamm, I really appreciate your time and your perspective today.

JK: Well, thank you.

NK: Take care.

JK: Goodbye.

AH: John Kamm is an advocate for detainees in China. He's also been advising the family of Canadian prisoner Robert Schellenberg. He was in San Francisco. And for more on this story, you can visit our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: ambient]

Guest: Andrew Gounardes

CH: After weeks of refusing to budge, New York State Governor Andrew Cuomo is stepping down. His resignation comes a week after the state's attorney general's report, which said Mr. Cuomo had sexually harassed 11 women. The allegations left him politically ostracized and facing the prospect of impeachment -- and his resignation today ends a decade in power. Here's part of what he said at a press conference today.

[sc]

ANDREW CUOMO: "New York Tough" means "New York Loving". And I love New York. And I love you. And everything I have ever done has been motivated by that love. And I would never want to be unhelpful in any way. And I think that given the circumstances, the best way I can help now is if I step aside and let government get back to governing. And therefore, that's what I would do. Because I work for you. And doing the right thing is doing the right thing for you. Because, as we say, it's not about me, it's about we.

[/sc]

AH: Andrew Gounardes is a Democratic New York state senator who has been calling on the Governor to resign for months. He also co-sponsored measures that would give state employees more protections against sexual harassment. We reached him in New York City.

NK: Senator Gounardes, Governor Cuomo says the best way he can help is by stepping down from office. You heard it there in that clip. Do you see this as a helpful move?

ANDREW GOUNARDES: I absolutely do. It's a sad day for New York that things had to come to this. But this is absolutely the right decision for the governor to be making. And this is the right decision for the people of New York.

NK: At the outset, it certainly didn't sound like a speech where he was going to be stepping aside.

AG: You know, it did not. But I think it was… I don't want to say funny. But listening to it and listening to the transition, and when he got to that point, it soon became quickly apparent that that was where the governor was going to go. And I think it just reflects the reality that there were no longer any tenable options for the governor to remain in office. He had lost the support of the other branches of government. He lost the support of the people of the state. He lost the support of… even of his own staff or former staff members.

NK: Just days ago, Governor Cuomo and his lawyers were fighting back against the attorney general's report and the allegations that he sexually harassed women. Do you think that he had a change of heart and now believes these women?

AG: I think that he came to a realization that there was no other way out. Hearing even his attorney this morning dismiss many of the corroborated cases and stories of these women shows that there is still not a recognition that what happened here was inappropriate. What happened here was wrong. And, you know, I don't think that has changed in any way. I think what has changed is the political calculus that if the governor did not resign, he would be impeached.

NK: The political calculus you mentioned, is this about preserving Mr. Cuomo's ability to run again someday?

AG: You know, there is certainly some speculation about that. It's a little too early to tell for sure. You know, the governor does have a very sizeable war chest at his disposal. But I do know that it was without a doubt, the assembly was prepared to move towards impeachment. And without a doubt, the Senate was... was ready to vote to convict the governor and remove him from office.

NK: He's still facing problems, though, in terms of an investigation in your state. This doesn't end that?

AG: Correct. And we have not yet heard definitively from the assembly's impeachment committee whether or not they will be continuing their impeachment investigation. I believe that they should be.

NK: In addition to the sexual harassment allegations that are part of the investigation, or what the assembly is looking at, is also how the pandemic was handled, if I'm not mistaken?

AG: There are investigations into the handling of nursing home data. You know, into a book deal that he, you know, for his book last year that allegedly he had government staff work on the book for him and with him. There are a number of investigations currently pending into the governor and his team over the last six months, not just on sexual harassment.

NK: Back to those sexual harassment allegations, though, because they are so significant. One of your colleagues, someone who you worked with a lot on on this kind of file, assembly member Yuh-Line Niou, says that as a sexual assault survivor herself, she found the governor's speech today, quote, horrific. And that he was, in her opinion, still trying to gaslight the women he hurt. What do you make of her reaction?

AG: I think, you know, we have to validate the experiences of survivors. And, you know, it's very easy for someone who has never been on the receiving end of that treatment to just brush, you know, those types of concerns aside. The harder thing to do, and the right thing to do, is to actually censor the voices of survivors, censor the voices of people who have experienced this, understand the trauma that they go through and follow their lead. And so I think the assemblywoman is correct in saying that the attempts by the governor's attorney, and by the governor himself, to dismiss some of these accusations, to minimize them, are really traumatizing. And it shows to devalue and dehumanize the very lived experiences of these women who are incredibly brave to come forward in the first place.

NK: Eleven women. And the stories range from sexual remarks to allegations of inappropriate touching. As you've gone through these allegations, what strikes you most?

AG: What strikes me the most is that this is nothing new. We've seen this movie before, whether it's with a governor or a film producer, the former president. This is a way for people to use and abuse their power over others. This is not about sex. This is not about lust or desire. This is about power. This is about someone knowing that they can put someone else in an uncomfortable position by touching them, saying things to them, knowing that that person is powerless to do anything about it. And, you know, we've seen this in New York again and again with other elected officials who were incredibly powerful.

NK: Governor Cuomo, I mean, he said it again today seems to just that this for him is generational misunderstanding, the time we live in, and a political... political motivations behind this.

AG: I think that that is just part of the pattern of not accepting the magnitude of what's been alleged here. And frankly, it serves to, you know, delegitimize the very real experiences that these women have. It's not just politics when, you know, the governor of New York tries to put his hand on your chest. It's not just politics. When the governor pulls you to his side to take a picture and puts his hand a little bit too close to you. That's not politics. That's... those are facts. Those are corroborated facts. And to say that it's politics really is... is very disturbing, very upsetting. And like I said, you know, serves to not validate these people's experiences. And that's exactly what we should be doing in this moment.

NK: Senator Gounardes, we will leave it there. Thank you for your time.

AG: Thank you very much. Thank you.

CH: Andrew Gounardes is a Democratic New York state senator. He was in New York City. And you can find that interview on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: ambient]

Guest: Kelsey Mitchell

AH: Four years ago, Kelsey Mitchell didn't own a bicycle. This weekend, she won the gold medal for Canada in sprint track cycling. For the 27-year-old from Sherwood Park, Alberta, it's a remarkable story -- and so was that race on Sunday. It started out slowly and methodically, as most sprint track cycling events do. Ms. Mitchell was waiting for the right moment to take the inside track -- and overtake Ukrainian Olena Starikova. And then, she pounced. Kelsey Mitchell is back from Tokyo. We reached her in Sherwood Park.

NK: So, Kelsey, has it sunk in yet that you're an Olympic gold medallist?

KELSEY MITCHELL: No. [both chuckle] It's just... it's crazy. It's just slowly getting more real. So it still feels like a dream. I went to bed last night and I'm just like, did this happen? Is this real? [chuckling]

NK: Well, let's play the moment that it did happen.

[sc]

[a lap bell rings]

ANNOUNCER: Now she gets the bell. She's still a little high on the track. She's going to dive down now and put it onto full gas. If Mitchell wins this, she will take the gold medal. She has the lead in this best-of-three. She's gotta keep that track in… that bike in the track. Will Mitchel hold on? She does! It's a gold for Kelsey Mitchell of Canada.

ANNOUNCER #2: Wow! Second gold medal ever for Canada in cycling!

[/sc]

NK: The velodrome, on Sunday, in Tokyo. Take me back to that moment [KM chuckles] where you overtook your opponent, Olena Starikova, and set off on the inside track. What were you thinking in that moment?

KM: Huh, well, there's so many factors that go into that race. And she was keeping it slow. And I was like, no, this is... we've got to pick it up. And so I just drove under her, and I went all out. I drained the tank all the way to the line. So I was seeing if I could hold on and I could. My legs were burning, but I crossed the line in first. I looked up at the camera and saw I had won. And I just couldn't help but smile and just look for my teammates. And Cycling Canada was there with the flag. And just… [chuckling] it was just... I can't even put it into words. I'm trying, but it was just like all the emotions. And then, it was more so, like, on the podium in the maple leaf and hearing that anthem, I was thinking of everyone back home. And I know a lot of people were standing up and singing along and having a couple beers. And it was just, yeah, it was very... a very emotional, special moment that I'll remember for the rest of my life.

NK: I think a lot of us are just waking up to what sprint track cycling looks like, feels like.

KM: Yeah.

NK: As a spectator. So it's so cool to watch. We were just watching your race before the start of our interview. Everything moves really slowly. It's like you guys are just, you know, rolling along. It doesn't really look like a race. You're just sort of circling one another. And, you know, your opponent kept checking back and you were it seemed like nerves of steel. And then you have to decide, this is when I'm going to cut in?

KM: Yeah, it's... I played a variety of sports and nothing beats the stress [both chuckling] of this sport. I'm telling you, it's crazy. Once I'm on the line, I'm good. Because I know there's nothing else I can do. But when I'm in the pit, I'm like, OK, should I warm up more? Should I... what should I do? Should I drink more water? Like, there's just so many things going through your mind, but as soon as I get on the line, it's like, all right, now it's game time. So, I'm glad you thought I was calm. [chuckle]

NK: It sure looked like it. You seemed like you had complete command of the course and your strategy. But the thing is, not so long ago, those tactics, this sport, entirely new to you. So what was your life like four years ago?

KM: Four years ago, I was working for Strathcona County, driving a truck beside the ditch and just like riding the brakes for eight hours a day as my partner was spraying weeds in the ditch, and that was, yeah, what I was doing. And I had eight hours to think about my life. And if this was what I wanted my future to be or what I kind of wanted. And I just kind of wasn't done with sport and I thought I'd kind of regret it for the rest of my life if I didn't give one last shot at it. And so I did the RBC Training Grounds and joined track cycling. And it's been a crazy, crazy few years, for sure.

NK: And you didn't even own a bike.

KM: [laughing] Yeah.

NK: That's the other staggering thing.

KM: Yeah, I definitely wasn't planning on going with cycling. Like, I was open to any sport. Like, I just wanted to try something new and see where my athletic abilities could take me. And, you know, I thought maybe it'd be bobsled or speed skating or rowing or something. But just because I wasn't a cyclist, I didn't own a bike, I didn't ride bikes. And so when they said track cycling, I'm like, well, what is that? And so, did some Google searches and figured out kind of what it was and tried it out. And soon as I started getting good and going fast, I fell in love with it.

NK: What was it like when you landed back in Canada, just yesterday, as I understand it?

KM: Yeah, it was... it was emotional. [chuckle] I'm getting emotional again. Yeah, just walking… [beginning to cry with a chuckle] oh no, sorry!

NK: It's OK. No apology needed.

KM: Yeah, just... I saw my parents right off the plane and one of my best friends, who actually went to Toronto with me to go to the RBC Training Grounds. She didn't try out, but she was there to support me. And so I saw them first and that was emotional. And then [chuckling] came down the stairs and saw like 50 other people, and all people who have played such a role in my journey. There was a lot of emotion. [chuckling] A lot of tears, all happy tears. And just their support... and I would never have made it without them. And so.

NK: Well, these were such incredible Games for Team Canada, and the women on Team Canada in particular. So you're part of a pretty incredible contingent at really a seminal time.

KM: Yeah, it's... the women were killing it. Canada was killing it. Like, I'm just so proud to be Canadian and, like, I hope people were watching. And I hope kids were watching and seeing this and thinking maybe me one day. I hope adults were seeing it and saying, oh, maybe I'll try a new sport or just, yeah. Sport is so beautiful and it just brings people together. And I'm just... to be representing Canada at the Olympics was such a phenomenal feeling. And then to bring a gold medal home to them, to everyone, is just... you can't ask for anything more.

NK: Kelsey Mitchell, I'm so glad we could chat. Thank you. And congratulations again.

KM: Yeah. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me and getting me emotional again.

NK: [both chuckle] I'm happy to help. Take care.

KM: Yeah. Thanks. Bye-bye.

CH: Kelsey Mitchell is an Olympic gold medallist in sprint track racing. She won Canada's last medal of these Tokyo Games on Sunday. And we reached her back home, in Sherwood Park, Alberta.

[sc]

[music: "Who's Gonna Take the Weight" by Kool & the Gang]

DENNIS THOMAS: People, the world today is in a very difficult situation. And we all know it. Because we're the ones who created it. We're going to have to be the ones to clean it up. We're going to have to learn to live together, and love each other.

[/sc]

AH: When Dennis "Dee Tee" Thomas first spoke those words in the opening monologue for Kool & the Gang's "Who's Gonna Take the Weight," he likely had no idea just how fitting they'd feel 50 years later. But the world remains in a very difficult situation. And the band's music remains an all-important balm. Kool & the Gang was founded in 1964 by brothers Robert "Kool" Bell and Ronald Bell, with Mr. Thomas on alto sax -- and at the mic as the group's master of ceremonies. Dennis Thomas died this weekend. He was 70 years old. According to the band's other surviving members, he was, quote "the quintessential cool cat in the group, loved for his hip clothes and hats, and his laid-back demeanour." Unquote. But as Mr. Thomas told the New York Times in 1973, laid-back wasn't the goal. "We want to lift our audiences up so they think about what they've heard," he said. And so they did. Which is something worth celebrating.

[music: post-rock vibes]

AH: Island nations already know the devastating effects of global warming. And yesterday's landmark report, from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, only served as another reminder to these countries on the frontlines of climate change that action must happen now. In 2018, Anote Tong shared his concerns with Carol that his remote Pacific island nation could be wiped off the map. The former president of Kiribati was the subject of a documentary at the Hot Docs film festival titled "Anote's Ark," by Canadian director Matthieu Rytz.

[sc]

CO: Anote Tong, Matthieu Rytz, welcome to As It Happens — to ur studio.

MATTHIEU RYTZ AND AT: Thank you.

CO: President Tong, I just want ask you, first of all, if you can tell us a bit about Kiribati because the documentary is very disturbing, very troubling, but it's also very beautiful because your country, your nation is so beautiful. Can you describe Kiribati?

AT: Well, you are absolutely correct, it is a beautiful country. It's right in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, on the equator, and also straddling the international dateline. They're all mostly coral atolls. Of course, coral atolls are just bits of coral on top of the seam-lines, and so the elevation is on average about two metres above sea level, and therefore, not very resilient to any kind of a storm. And, of course, with the rising sea level the level of vulnerability is extreme. I think we argue that case every time we go to the United Nations to discuss about least development country status. That even if we do achieve some development, all of this could be cancelled out whenever there is a bot of an adverse condition.

CO: It's disappearing — your republic is sinking?

AT: Well, you don't see it sinking, but you see things happening, OK? And I think I wouldn't be exaggerating to say that in the last few years, we're seeing this sea level rise, and I've never really said that. But what I say is this: we are seeing events like the contamination of the water lines. We are seeing villages gone. We are seeing the destruction of food crops. But I think you take that in combination with the science that's coming forward, and there's real reason for concern in the future.

CO: You have about 100,000 people who live there.

AT: We've got over 100,000 people.

CO: And the other thing that seems to be changing, which you've documented in this in this program, is that you're getting more severe weather. Did you have these typhoons before in Kiribati?

AT: We don't get typhoons. Since we're on the equator, we actually create the typhoons. But then they go north or south, they don't stay on the equatorial region. I mean that area is the doldrums, very boring, very stable weather conditions. But in 2015, one of the cyclones that the islands of Vanuatu totally destroyed — it actually went north. It came back north, and flooded all of the islands, flooded our southern-most islands, and also flooded the rest to a lesser extent. But the effect of damaging a lot of food crops, which had been there for decades, and also contaminated the waterlines. And so this is new, and taking that in combination with the science that say it's going to get worse not better, I think it really is a story to be listened to.

CO: Matthieu Rytz, you, of course, thought this was a story to be listened to, and my congratulations to you because you made it very beautiful, but you had pretty good material to work with. Why did you want to make this documentary?

MR: So I started as a photojournalist covering the global issue of the rising sea. And really why I wanted to start this whole project is when I first met with President Tong in Kiribati because I met an incredible man at the time four years ago, very charming, but with a mission that blew my mind. I mean as a head of state knowing that you will be stateless within a century was like what's the biggest journey? What's the biggest challenge? You don't have something bigger as a head of state than losing the state. So it really came into my mind when we first met, and then I go back to Canada and I start thinking about it. But it was very hard in the beginning because you know I go to any broadcaster and producer and I say I have a great movie, I have a great idea about you know a nation that going under water with climate change and everything. And they say oh yeah, we know the story of already. We know it. We have plenty of movies about it. And I was like yeah, but it's a different story. Please listen, and then ask me what did you do before? Any other movie? No, that's my first feature; I never even did a short. So no one there was listening to me in the beginning. So I had to be very stubborn and believe in the story. And so the first two years was quite difficult trying to convince people, and putting all my energy and money you know just get getting full in-depth just to keep on because I saw that the story was important.

CO: You had as, you point out, President Tong, who is an extremely compelling, articulate character for your documentary. So thank you, President Tong. But at the same time, there were some other people that you feature in this, and they get their names right: Ato and Sabari, who are just citizens of the island. And can you tell us why you included them? What do they bring to your story?

MR: Since day one, it was very important for me to have intertwined stories of people who really get affected in Kiribati and follow their story. And because it's more a story about climate justice and adaptations on climate change actually. I mean climate change we kind of know it now. You know we had those movies ten years ago. "Inconvenient Truth", and you know like just people starting understanding what's what will happen with climate change. But I think in 2018, we don't need like another full feature explaining about climate change. I think the next debate is climate justice and adaptation. So understanding what the process of those people who are really are affected on the frontline, and what they're going to go through. I think those two characters going to New Zealand and seeing how they adapt themselves to the new life and all the struggles they have was absolutely important to get the story.

CO: And they go to New Zealand for work. And there is a baby born — they have a new child, which the sense in that moment when you see that face, that little girl this is the future, which brings them joy, but many questions about what future she faces.

MR: Absolutely, and for me it was a way to convene a universal story because any parent can relate to this feeling of having a child and understanding what's the impact of giving birth in a place. And that's a very universal story. I mean here in Toronto, half of the city were born outside of this country. So people in Canada, any part of the planet, will understand the feeling of raising a child in another country than their own country. But the difference with Sabari is maybe that child will never see Kiribati, maybe never get back. And if the country won't be there, what are they going to say to the child? We come from that place that is no longer. I think that's a very powerful message.

CO: You're listening to "As It Happens". I'm speaking with Anote Tong, former president of Kiabati, and filmmaker Matthieu Rytz about their film "Anote's Arc". And President Tong, you go the world, you travel the world, trying to explain what's going on, trying to get people interested and to care. You go to the United Nations, you meet the pope, and you keep trying to make your case. What is it that you were asking them to do?

AT: I think it's you know because the focus of the climate debate has in the past been on the science, whether this was human-induced, or whether it's part of the normal cycle. And that took some time to resolve. But by 2007, with the Fourth Assessment Report of the IPCC — the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change — It was fairly conclusive that it was human-induced, and so they came up with scenarios, which for me were extremely disastrous for our people. So climate change is not so much about the science. It's not so much about the environment. It's not about the economy. Because a lot of countries leaders have argued that to cut their emissions would mean a reduction in the rate of economic growth. But for me, it's always been about people. And I think that's the point that I always wanted to make to bring in the human dimension of the challenge of climate change. And so because a lot of countries believe that it is not relevant. It's not imminent for them. That it doesn't matter. They can still survive, and to a large extent, there is still that thinking.

CO: And we think when actually describe it, no one hides it. They talk about climate change winners and losers.

AT: Absolutely, and so here we are losers, and you know we are losers. But are you going to allow it to happen? And this is why I have always said climate change is the greatest moral challenge for humanity because if you know that the action what do you do actually results in the demise of people on the other side of the world, what are you going to do about it? Are you going to keep going on doing it? Or do you have the moral caliber and capacity to refrain from doing it? And that question and that challenge remains unanswered until today because our situation remains unresolved. Our islands will be under water — unless, of course, we undertake very significant adaptation measures for which there are no resources forthcoming even at this point in time.

CO: You actually go to the Arctic, and because all our focus on climate change has been on the massive changes going on at the polar ice cap, and you see a polar bear while you are there. But sometimes, I wonder I mean yes polar bears, that is a great motivator for dealing with climate change. But I wonder sometimes if you thought that you might get more attention and were more concern if you were a nation of polar bears? I mean that they seem to be far more concerned about the animals, that's justifiable, but less concerned about your people.

AT: This is a question that we ask. And so when I made that contrast in one of my statements at the United Nations, I think it made people sit up and ask themselves the question maybe we got our priorities wrong, or maybe they have it right. But I think it's about getting people to understand that every action that you do, whatever happens in the Arctic, whatever happens here in Canada, has implications for those of us on the other side of the world. And I think I was asked a question just earlier on and somebody was saying good luck. I said no, it's not luck that I need. I need you to take positive action to deal with this. And so that is the challenge that we as human beings have to face up to: understanding that knowing the science, having the knowledge that we know today, that all of the things that we do in order to make ourselves comfortable just a little bit of inconvenience would mean a great deal for the future of the future generations on the other side of the world.

CO: Throughout this documentary, you are this voice of calm and reason as you go place to place, you do interviews. I just wonder if there's ever a time when you get angry about this because you know your nation, Kiribati, has a nonexistent carbon footprint compared to the industrial powers who put you in this situation. Do you ever want to say you got us into this mess, now you get us out?

AT: Yes, I was angry, frustrated, depressed, with a deep sense of futility that I'm not making a difference. Nobody was listening because there was the focus on the terrorism. But what I learned later on is that people do not listen to somebody who is preaching something radical, something not acceptable to their sense of comfort. And so I had to inject a great deal of rational thought into my presentation. So instead of being such a radical, I' decided to become a rational radical — a radical that makes sense. And it's about bringing people together that OK, this is where we are. There's no point in pointing fingers at people, but we need to go forward. And in order to go forward, we need to work together. And so this is the way that I put it across. And I think for those who needed an excuse to say that I am a radical and do not make sense I made it somewhat more difficult for them to just dismiss me like that. But also, in a sense, it also had a very good effect on myself to be talking in a rational, calm fashion because it's about relating to people that climate change is not only relevant for people like me, but it's also relevant for people who now think that they're not being threatened by the impacts of climate change. And I think this is being over and over again by the events that have taken in those places that in the past considered themselves immune to the impacts of climate change.

CO: But your own family, your own children, grandchildren, it must be so disturbing to know — and as you point out in the film — not just that you're going to lose this place quite possibly, but how much else you lose. You're an Indigenous people, you lose the entire culture.

AT: You know I can tell you it's not a nice feeling. And especially I have more than a dozen grandchildren, and I do watch them play. One day, I asked myself the question where will they be? I discussed it with my wife, and said where will these kids be when all of this comes down? And this is why I know that there is a certain sense of thinking that maybe God will provide. Let God provide, but we need to do as much as possible in order to allow that to happen. And I think there are things we can do to give security to our people. And this is what I've been saying that coming up with all kinds of radical wild options, but in the absence of anything else, why not?

CO: I'm speaking with Anote Tong, who is the former president of Kiribati, and filmmaker Matthieu Rytz about this movie "Anote's Arc". We are in the As It Happens studio. I want to play a clip from the film because you mentioned earlier, Matthieu, and both you mentioned about adaptation. At some point, you have to conclude that no one's going to stop this thing from happening, and you have to start to adapt. And this is a clip from the movie.

SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER: A lot of the media is so far focused on where islander will go, and where we will relocate. And I want people to know that we don't want to move from our island. And we shouldn't have to move from our island. So I'm marching today because I have a daughter, and I want her daughter, and her granddaughter, and the next generations after to grow up, and live, and thrive in our islands, a to know where they're from.

CO: That's a clip from the film. And you have tried to do things, President Tong. You actually purchased a parcel of land in Fiji I understand.

AT: Yeah, it's all part of the effort to try at least to bring some sense of comfort to people. There was a time when I feared my people asking me okay, this is happening. What do you have to ensure our safety, to guarantee safety in the future? And so that was part of that. It won't solve everything, but at least it's a move towards addressing the issue. But more importantly, it was a challenge to the international community that here we are looking for solutions and nobody is coming forward with solutions. So if nobody is coming forward with solutions, then we must find those solutions ourselves, including doing something like that. But let me add that since we did that, my greatest concern is what would be the reaction of the people of Fiji, of the government of Fiji? And I think Fiji has been the only one that's responded in the most appropriate manner. Fiji has offered to be able to accommodate the people of Kiribati if ever they needed in order to address the challenge of climate change. So that was the kind of moral response that I'd been challenging the world global community to come up with. And that's been the only response that I've had so far. I had discussions with the leader from East Timor. You know he was a Nobel Peace Prize laureate. And, of course, he also offered, but it's not been followed up. But I think it's the kind of moral response that we sadly need.

CO: And Matthieu, you also document in "Anote's Arc" some other projects, including something called the Green Float and the Ocean's Spiral. Can you describe what these are?

MR: Yes, that was very interesting. It's is a corporation based in Japan, and the way I portray it in the movie, it sounds like science fiction, but they're actually building in the bay of Tokyo right now it's a floating island. But why it is trying to be built now in Tokyo is also for the overpopulation of a city like Tokyo, Hong Kong, Shanghai, all those coastal line cities that will be very affected by the rising sea also. So I think the way they approach Kiribati with this project is because it's under the equator, so it's a very calm climate, so they wanted to test the technology in Kiribati also. So it's part of the solution for Kiribati, but part of you know another technology, and another kind of almost capitalist tool for this Japanese cooperation just to sell the product. So it's becoming a bit of a tricky question where you feel like they a good will to serve the country, but here we go again. It's the same paradigm and same mindset behind that we can we build this incredible technology to solve the problem. And I think what is addressed in the movie is like first you know if people from Kiribati have to move to a floating island how can they can keep their spirituality and culture in a new land that's totally different you know. But it brings also another dimension of it that we believe that the technology will fix the problem. And without actually changing paradigms and so only the only way to solve the climate crisis is really to reconnect to nature fundamentally. it's a deep sense we need to do that as a species to really change things, otherwise I don't know where humanity is going with the climate crisis.

CO: Well, the first thing when you show these floating islands. This is so futuristic you think this is science fiction and you realize this is not so far in the future. But what is doubly alarming about that segment of these alternatives is that clearly, people see business opportunities in climate change. There is money to be made as nations like Kiribati go under. That somebody can actually make money on selling stuff.

MR: Absolutely. And there is another layer of it, they're going to have a huge carbon footprint to build them. So you try to solve the problem by creating another one. So it's not a bad thing. I mean it's good people try to find solutions. And I met with the director of this program of this cooperation, and he's a good man, he really wants to help. It's a good debate I think. But really what I wanted to portray in the movie is too basic conclusion is that technology as we know it now is not the only part of the solution. But also our democratic institutions through the U.N. and through all the big players are not the solution either. So it's really I think I mean the capitalist, liberal, democratic, global the global scale just doesn't have a tool really to solve the problem. So we have to rethink everything.

CO: Another disturbing aspect of this is that, of course, we think we are hoping the international community can find solutions. And the Paris Agreement is supposed to be the great hope of those who are trying to fight climate change. And you see President Obama in those clips that you run in the documentary. Well, he's gone, and a different president who has no interest in the Paris agreement. And so you know it just spirals right down to the bottom again. How discouraging is that for you to see how little the international community can really do?

AT: Well, I said very often that one of the greatest obstacles to addressing this global problem is the fact that we come to the negotiations, to the discussions, including in Paris as independent sovereign nations, bringing our own national agenda, and trying to put in our priorities somewhere there. And this is exactly what's happened. I mean with the new administration in the United States, now they think that that is not the priority. And the reason why that is not a priority is because they're looking at climate change as something outside of their national agenda. But the reality is this: on climate change, we're all part of the process. And so we should not be coming with our own national agenda. We should be thinking as global leaders. Not as individual leaders from different countries. For example, the debates that I've had with colleagues, other leaders who have insisted that to go below two degrees in the rise in global temperature was to damaging to their economies. My response was very clear: I hear you, but any rise in global temperature means that my country no longer has a place. My future generations will not have a home. And I have no problem, you can emit as much as possible, but if you could keep it within your national borders, not a problem. But, of course, you cannot. And you cannot claim your right to send your emissions my way. And I think this is the question where I think the challenge for the international regime regulatory arrangement is inadequate to deal with this. Because if that was the case, and I often talk about this, if it destroys somebodies home, you take people to court here in Canada, but we cannot take anybody to rectify the injustice. So until we can acknowledge and accept that everything we do if it's damaging to somebody else, we must be liable one way or another.

CO: But it's not just the outside players, the president the United States, or international associations. Your own country, your own republic, you're not the president anymore. A new government has come in; the opposition is now running it, and they have as I understand it reversed all of your climate change policies?

AT: I think this is the point that I've been making that climate change is not something to be made a political issue.

CO: So what are they doing? What have what have you lost? What are the plans and the ideas are the people who are now running the republic?

AT: Well, I think I can understand where they're coming from. But I think they're just going over the path that I had gone over and gone past. And I think I understand the emotional reaction of rejecting the notion of having to leave your home. Nobody wants that. But that is an emotional reaction. You've got to face the brutal reality of the science, what is happening, what is going to be happening. And no matter how undesirable it might be, you've got to get over that emotional hurdle. Otherwise, you cannot respond rationally. And so these are the brutal realities.

CO: We are all going to be in your shoes at some point. I have grandchildren too that I look at, and I'm thinking my God, what world will they inherit? What have we left them? When you talk to people, when you go around the world trying to make the case that your nation is disappearing, do you think that registers with people?

AT: No, because they do not think it's relevant to them. I mean what's relevant is when you listen to "Inconvenient Truth" and just examine why it was inconvenient. It's inconvenient for people who are living a grand lifestyle. But for us, it's not inconvenient, it's disastrous. So it's always that perspective. And I think we've got to come to understand that. I've always used the term "frontline states", and we are a state on the frontline, and we will fail. But if nothing is done, other countries will be the next on the frontline — until eventually, maybe we would have gone all the way to destroy the planet.

CO: I hate to leave on that despairing note, but that is what the documentary leaves us with as well, and very powerful work. Matthieu Rytz, thank you for the documentary.

MR: Thank you.

CO: And, Anote Tong, thank you so much for your wisdom, and for sharing it with us.

AT: Thank you for giving us the opportunity to share this story. But please, don't just listen then then forget about it. I invite you to do something about it.

CO: Thank you for that.

AT: Thank you.

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AH: Anote Tong is the former President of Kiribati. He starred in the documentary "Anote's Ark," which was directed by Matthieu Rytz. They spoke with Carol in April 2018. To see pictures of Kiribati, visit our website at: www.cbc.ca/aih.