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The AIH Transcript For August 09, 2021

[hosts]Nil Köksal, Ali Hassan[/hosts]

NIL KOKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal, sitting in for Carol Off.

ALI HASSAN: Good evening. I'm Ali Hassan, sitting in for Chris Howden. This is “As It Happens”.

[music: theme]

Prologue

AH: Tonight:

NK: Out of excuses. A contributor to the UN's latest climate report tells us it's past time the body issued its "code red for humanity." But, she says, catastrophe can be avoided, if the world acts fast.

AH: Political blandscape. The late Bill Davis wasn't flashy. But his friend -- and one-time political opponent -- Bob Rae says that's exactly what made the former Ontario premier effective.

NK: Fire island. A resident of the Greek island of Evia describes how fire forced her family to flee by boat -- and left her daughter asking if they'd ever be able to go home again.

AH: Against the grain. A treaty rights lawyer in Minnesota tells us why he's filed a rare lawsuit accusing the state of violating nature's right to exist. And he says the lead plaintiff is wild rice.

NK: Bone chilling. Scientists say a prehistoric skeleton found a decade ago belongs to a fearsome flying pterosaur. And their description of its hunting prowess has us raptor-round their fingers.

AH: And ... En garde-en. When you get a call from your contractor, chances are you should steel yourself for bad news. But an Ottawa couple redoing their deck recently found out their renovation had unearthed an antique blade.

AH: “As It Happens”, the Monday Edition. Radio that wonders if the contractors also do fencing.

[music: theme]

Part 1: IPCC Report, Greece Wildfires, Old Sword Found

IPCC Report

Guest: Corinne Le Quéré

AH: The planet is warming more quickly than we thought -- and humans are almost entirely to blame. That's what the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change -- the IPCC -- says in its newest, most comprehensive and most dire report about the state of our planet. It says every inhabited region on Earth is likely to experience frequent extreme weather events. It also says greenhouse gases will continue to push temperatures up. The United Nations Secretary General, António Guterres, called today's news QUOTE "a code red for humanity." Corinne Le Quéré is a Canadian scientist and a contributing author of the report. She's also a Royal Society Professor of Climate Change Science at the University of East Anglia. We reached her in Norwich, England.

NK: Professor Le Quéré, you were involved in the IPCC's three previous reports. How would you compare where we were at that time and now?

CORINNE LE QUERE: Yeah, this latest report is able to go a lot farther in demonstrating that it is humans that are causing climate change, the warming of the planet, all of that warming over the last 100 years with accelerated warming in the last 50 years. And not only this but there is also evidence that humans are causing changes in extreme weather events now. So this is really the biggest advance of the report is the responsibility for climate change that lies within human activities.

NK: And you wanted to make that clear right at the get-go. The first three words in this report are, quote, It is unequivocal. Why did you want to make such a strong statement right in those first words?

CLQ: Because that... the fact that humans are causing climate change also means that only humans can stop the climate to warm so that there is absolutely no doubt that the only way to stabilize the climate again is to move out of fossil fuels, to stop emitting greenhouse gases so that the... the... the warming will therefore stabilize.

NK: Given what is happening in so many parts of the world, wildfires, just... just one story playing out in many, many parts of the world. Do you think people are paying attention?

CLQ: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I think that the extreme events that we've seen this summer, particularly wildfires because they are so extreme and so close to climate change with the warming enhancing the weather conditions that promote fire. And people see that. And the connection is really clear also in people's mind when you see what does it mean a changing climate with your own eyes. You kind of get a different realization of what it actually means to warm the planet in the way that we are doing now.

NK: So people waking up to this reality, paying attention now, that I suppose is... is a good step. But you also point out that... that there are some things that are irreversible at this point. We've let it go too far.

CLQ: Yeah, the warming of the planet so far is irreversible over time scales, human timescales, hundreds to thousands of years. And the worse is that some of the impacts of climate change will continue for a long, long time, particularly the rise of the sea, sea-level rise. And therefore, even if we were able to stop climate change now, to stop the warming, we would still have a delay in this rise of sea level and the associated impacts. And that's part of the reason why it is so urgent to act very rapidly to stabilize the climate so that we ensure that we are able to adapt to the full range of the impacts that are looming.

NK: You know, on one hand, you don't want people to be apathetic. You want them to pay attention. And news like this playing out all over the world on newscasts will... will help people pay more attention. But are you also worried that when they hear such dire things that people also tune that out?

CLQ: Yeah, there is a little bit of a risk indeed that too much bad news is also not good. But on the other hand, because this is the demonstration that humans are causing climate change, it also means that we are, in fact, able to do something about it. And that ability is... is very positive. We have the technology. We have the means. We know what to do. Governments know what to do. There is this big U.N. conference, COP26, coming out in November, where governments will get together to try and agree on a new stronger action. And governments then come back home and plan for that. And these are all positive steps. The issue here is that the action is not going fast enough. That leaders haven't realized just what you need to put in place. The timescales is... is really, really rapid. And... and this needs to sink in at the right level. And this year is the time to do it.

NK: I wanted to ask you about the upcoming talks in Glasgow -- the ones in November -- that you mentioned. What do you want to see from world leaders when that summit wraps up? What specifically do you need to see and hear?

CLQ: Yeah, the objective for a global world leader has to be to bring the emissions down as quickly as possible. And if we can bring them down to net zero, so almost down to zero with offsetting with planting trees by 2050, this would keep climate change at about 1.5-degree warming, which is probably manageable. And I would like to see, therefore, that all the world leaders back that target and then that the world leaders then go back home, particularly the rich countries, and set the plans into action. At the moment, too many countries have ambitious targets, but they have no plans or no credible plans, no funding in place. Too often, tackling climate change is the role of the environmental ministry and not the role of the prime minister or all the ministries around the table. And that's the level where you need to bring climate action to really make a difference is the level of the prime minister, the Treasury and everybody in the politics of a government have to be involved.

NK: Professor Le Quéré, thank you so much for your time.

CLQ: Thank you.

AH: Corinne Le Quéré is a Canadian scientist who contributed to the report released today by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. She was in Norwich, England. You can find that interview on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: eerie instrumental]

Greece Wildfires

Guest: Madison Brown

AH: The Greek island of Evia is on fire. For the last week, residents, volunteers and firefighters have been fighting three wildfires on the island, which is just north-east of the capital, Athens. The fires are the most severe of dozens in the past week across Greece. The country has been experiencing its worst heatwave in three decades. Temperatures have soared as high as 45 degrees Celsius. More than 2,000 people have been forced to flee the island by sea so far. Madison Brown owns a hotel in Limni, a town on Evia. And she and her family fled on a ferry on Friday. We reached her back in Limni today.

NK: Madison, what is it like on Evia right now, seven days into this fire?

MADISON BROWN: So, it's still burning, the fire. It's currently... it's headed... it started just five kilometres from Limni. And it's travelled in that time 45 to 50 kilometres northeast. [a phone rings] And it's also travelled about 30 kilometres south. It's split into three different fronts from the Limni and spread out that way. So it's still bad, and it's still nowhere near being put out -- despite the best efforts of local volunteers and a smattering of local firefighters.

NK: So fast-moving, multipronged and spreading still.

MB: And spreading still, yeah.

NK: What kind of impact... what kind of impact has it had?

MB: It's basically wiped out an entire forest. It's... it's completely devastated the local ecosystem here. The northern Evia is divided into two regions. Our region alone has lost a thousand homes. So it's devastating on many fronts.

NK: Let's go back to Friday, if you don't mind. When did you realize that you had to get out?

MB: I actually got a call from a friend in Athens who called me saying we're just seeing on the news that the fire is heading your way. And I... the last week, I've been basically going outside every hour to check the… to check the sky, to check the surroundings. When I got the call, I went outside and suddenly saw the smoke was billowing towards us. And... and then people outside were running down the hill with suitcases and saying, go to the port, go to the port. They're going to evacuate us by ferry. I had a full... a full house. And I had to rush next door and make sure everybody was evacuated. And then frantically pack up our belongings and get ourselves down there. You know, it was kind of panic stations. And the sky got very dark and very thick and smoky very quickly. We had one airplane come in for basically one hour only. And we didn't see any other support except for one fire truck. And it was just the locals that stayed behind to save the houses locally. So they kept the perimeter clean and... and beat the fire off, basically.

NK: Where are the fire crews?

MB: We don't know. And we'd love to know. I mean, we haven't seen them. We... strangely enough, we had a fire on the 24th of July, just a small fire on the outskirts of the town. And that time, we had four helicopters and two planes come in. And within two hours, they'd totally put the fire out. This time the excuse was, OK, well, they're fighting fires all over Greece. And they had the majority of the planes in northern Athens. And northern Athens is an area where a lot of politicians live. A lot of rich people live. You know, the... the... the people are saying that that's where the focus was and Evia was completely forgotten. But Evia is a much bigger tinderbox. And, you know, it just became a disaster very, very quickly, unfortunately. And it didn't need to be

NK: Any sense of what sparked this fire?

MB: No one has any idea yet. And we haven't even had a chance to catch our breath and find out. But the temperatures have been... on the day that the fire started, the temperature was 45 degrees Celsius. So it really just could have been anything from a piece of glass. It could have been an arsonist.

NK: When you were on the boat during that evacuation order, what was it like to see the island? And what did you see?

MB: It was just this... it was just a red hill, a red and orange hill. And, you know, my daughter said, you know, she turned to me, and she said, she's nine, Mommy, are we going to have to say our goodbyes? And I said, you know, to the town, to our house? And she said, no, to each other. And for a parent to hear something like that is just heartbreaking.

NK: What did you tell her?

MB: I just said, no, no, we're going to be OK. We're always going to be safe. But, you know, [chuckle] we'll... we'll do our best. You know, I don't know what's going to happen with the town, but we'll, you know, we'll do our best. And as I said to my husband, we can't shield her from this. We can't shelter her. She has to... she has to learn. Because unfortunately, these days, our kids are inheriting catastrophe after catastrophe. And the best thing we can do for them is to teach them how to handle ourselves in a catastrophe and how to help others and how to, you know, stop them from happening. So the best education we can give them is to give them the grit to see ourselves through this, you know?

NK: And clearly, the sense of community that you have on the island, everyone working together to try to help each other during this time.

MB: Absolutely. Everyone's really rallied together. It's been incredible. So, you know, I've never seen... I've never seen… [chuckling] I've never seen people so organized for once. It's been really great to see the coordination of food and drink. And, you know, whoever has a pickup truck is delivering to villages that are out of reach. You know, it's... it's been incredible.

NK: Is there any sense... are you getting any hints from the government, I've heard, you know, talk of... of help, financial help for people to rebuild. But have you heard anything specifically for your town?

MB: They... they've said that there is. But I mean, I know that people from their last big fire that they had in Mati, where 102 people perished, are still waiting on help. And so we're not optimistic, you know? And, I mean, we might get a little bit of help from our farm that was lost because we're part of a farmers union. And with that, they're far more effective than any kind of government help. So we're not optimistic. But, personally, I mean, from a personal standpoint, we are doing a lot better than other people. There are many people that have lost their homes and their livelihoods entirely -- people who have spent their lives just trying to build a little something, you know, have had it shattered. And seeing old men who've spent 60 years farming the land and making something of their property to see it was wiped out in a night, completely broken by it too, is really devastating.

NK: Madison Brown, thank you so much for telling us what's happening there.

MB: Thank you, Nil. I appreciate your time.

AH: Madison Brown owns a hotel in Limni, on the Greek island of Evia. And that's where we reached her.

[music: somber piano]

Old Sword Found

Guest: Renee Sigouin

AH: When an Ottawa family set out to renovate their deck last summer, they weren't expecting it to turn into an archaeological excavation. But that's what happened after their contractors discovered an old sword. Since then, Brad and Renee Sigouin have been digging into the weapon's past. And now, they have some answers. We reached Renee Sigouin at her home in Ottawa.

NK: So, Renee, what is it like to hold this sword in your hands?

RENEE SIGOUIN: It's pretty cool. It… it definitely looks like an old relic. It's fairly brittle. It's not very heavy, but it's a long military sword that, yeah, it was a big surprise to uncover in our backyard, that's for sure.

NK: And where are you keeping it now?

RS: We're just keeping it in our closet right now because we were advised that to keep it from decomposing or becoming even more brittle, we should keep it in a dark space until we can kind of get something appropriate to store it in.

NK: Well, take us back to last summer. The contractor showed you this sword. What did you think?

RS: So we got a phone call saying that the excavator had discovered a sword in our backyard. We were actually building a rear deck, and we needed some Sonotubes put in to hold the structure. And so they... the excavator had been digging and had a big pile of rubble, of dirt and stuff. And then the Sonotubes were poured. And that had a cure for a couple of days. And it was only when the excavator was backfilling to filling the hole in the ground that they discovered the sword, you know, with... with the excavator. So it was then we got the call to come over, [chuckling] and we were absolutely flabbergasted to have found that, yeah.

NK: Where do you even begin to try to find out who it belonged to, how old it is?

RS: So one of our friends, one of our really good friends, is an archaeologist, so she gave us a few hints.

NK: Helpful, yes. [chuckling]

RS: Yeah. And she actually… [chuckling] yes. So it's definitely handy to have a contact like that. And so then she recommended that we contact the Ottawa Archaeological Society, which is what we did. And we sent them a few pictures. Unfortunately, when we uncovered the sword, it was April, so only a month into the pandemic last year. So it was a bit of a strange time to be reaching out to people. And a little while later, the Ottawa Archaeological Society contacted us and said that we should contact the Ottawa Museum of History. So we... we did that. And then they were able to give us some hints on what it was but weren't able to view it in-person because of COVID. So we got to kind of date roughly what we thought it was. And then with things lightening up a little bit more, we actually had Eric Feinburg, actually, a collection specialist with the Canadian War Museum. He was able to have a closer look at it and identified it as an 1827 patterned rifle regiment officer's sword, with a straight thrusting blade introduced in 1892. So that was pretty cool. That kind of dated it to the late 1800s.

NK: The cool factor alone, to me, makes it priceless. But have you learned what its actual value is?

RS: Because it's so corroded, I don't think it really has any value. It's really just sentimental value for us as something that we found in our own backyard. We actually ironically have a bunker that was in our basement. That was... it seemed to have been constructed during the Cold War. So having that bunker plus then having found a sword, those two things don't seem to be... they're not related because the sword predates the bunker by, you know, four or five decades or so. But it's just kind of cool that we've got those two things that, you know, that are related to our... to our home now.

NK: Yeah, steeped in military history your home is. Start a little neighbourhood museum, maybe.

RS: Who knew, yeah!

NK: Who knew, exactly! The sheath, though, removing the sheath would help answer a key question, but you've decided not to remove the sheath. Why is that?

RS: So the collection specialist with the Canadian War Museum recommended against doing that because of just how brittle the sword is, and the sheath. There are little parts where the sheath has broken away. So you can actually see the sword, but it's kind of bonded together with corrosion. So if we were to try and take the sheath off, then it's likely that we could damage the sword. And there's no way… no way to know for sure whether there is anything identifying, you know, the regiment or the name of the officer who the sword belonged to. So we... we learnt that these types of swords if the officer wanted to keep them, they had to purchase them themselves. And then if they wanted to have them engraved, then they'd have to pay for that themselves as well. So some... some of these swords have engravings, and some don't. So to... to take the risk of taking the sheath off, only to learn that we've damaged the sword and we didn't have any identifiable characteristics there would be a bit of a shame. So we decided not to do that.

NK: Understood. So as calls from a contractor go, [chuckling] this one, pretty great?

RS: This was pretty great, yeah. So renovation's can be quite stressful. And so this one was definitely a good news story. So we were really happy to grab onto that experience. And, you know, that was definitely a happy, happy moment. And yeah, just to kind of uncover what we... what we'd found and who, you know, who it might have belonged to. And how I was really curious to learn how old it was just because of how corroded it was. We have... we don't really know how long it's been buried and, you know, how long it was buried for. And certainly, who and why it was buried. So that's all a bit of a mystery.

NK: The rest of the renovations went well? I have to ask.

RS: Oh, well, we're almost there. [chuckling] As the renovations go, they're always long and painful.

NK: And so this will be displayed prominently in your new space once you figure out the best way to preserve it, yeah?

RS: Absolutely! For sure. We're looking at ways to... we'd like to have it in some kind of a glass box or something and mounted... mounted on the wall in a prominent space. It's definitely a good conversation piece. So we're not going to hide it away somewhere in the cupboard for too much longer.

NK: Renee, thank you so much for telling us your story.

RS: Thank you. Thank you for your time.

NK: Take care.

AH: Renee Sigouin found a 19th-century sword while renovating her Ottawa home. That's where we reached her.

[music: upbeat pop beat]

Fuzzy Dragon

AH: Life in Australia has its charms. Beautiful beaches. World-class cities. A generally high standard of living. But add to that a seemingly endless supply of COVID lockdowns, an accelerating climate crisis and the presence of any number of venomous and otherwise terrifying animals. Residents might understandably have a few bones to pick. Take, for instance, the bones discovered by Queensland council worker Len Shaw a number of years ago. According to new research, they belong to a creature with a seven-metre wingspan, forty razor-sharp teeth and a penchant for killing. As Queensland University PhD candidate Tim Richards puts it, this animal, quote, "wasn’t built to eat broccoli." unquote. Well, fortunately for modern day Australians, it also wasn't built to survive the cretaceous period. Mr. Richards and his colleagues introduce the new species of pterosaur in today's Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology -- and they call it, quote "the closest thing we have to a real life dragon." They also specify that it was likely a "fuzzy dragon.” I gotta say, that hasn't done much to soften the blow of knowing this thing once existed in the world at all. Still, if I dig deep, I'm forced to admit: their finding has prompted one of my own. And in an era of seemingly constant crisis, it's a strange comfort to know: I'd still rather face down a proverbial dragon than an actual one.

[music: world music]

Part 2: Bill Davis Obit, Enbridge Wild Rice Lawsuit

Bill Davis Obit

Guest: Bob Rae

AH: Journalists may have thought Bill Davis unexciting. But judging by his back-to-back electoral victories, Ontario voters couldn't have cared less. And that famous slogan -- "Bland works" -- defined the legacy of the former Progressive Conservative premier, and defined a different way of doing politics. Bill Davis died on Sunday. He was 92 years old. During his 14 years in power, “As It Happens” caught up with Bill Davis more than a dozen times -- on everything from education to acid rain to his polite misgivings with fellow premiers. One of those premiers was Alberta's Peter Lougheed who, in 1979, increased the price of oil to the rest of Canada -- much to the chagrin of Bill Davis.

SOUNDCLIP

BILL DAVIS: We don't have, you know, oil wells. We don't have natural gas, not in any large amounts. And that our leverage from that standpoint, our economic levers, are very limited.

BARBARA FRUM: I wonder if you were angry at Mr. Lougheed’s obvious swipe at the management of the Ontario economy?

BD: Oh, I don’t think --

BF: He is really saying, I've given you, Mr. Davis, cheap energy and you've blown that opportunity anyway. Why should I continue?

BD: There's always been a feeling out West that Ontario has had traditionally more than its share. I always make the point that, well, we have done well economically in Ontario. And we're going to continue to grow economically and socially, but we have never been reluctant to share that with the rest of Canada.

BF: Why is there traditionally so much animosity between you and Premier Loughheed? Why this... this apparent resentment that he has? And I don't know the kind of reciprocal anger that you have against him.

BD: The fact that the two of us disagree sometimes vigorously on this sort of issue, A, is not unusual, but please don't put it on a personal basis.

BF: Ah, if diplomacy could only heal, eh?

BD, No, I just… [BF chuckles] I think that political leaders, leaders of governments, can and do disagree. That's part of the responsibility. But people always try to sort of say there's something personal in this. The two fellows don't like one another. I have to tell you that Mr. Lougheed and I have shared many other pleasant experiences.

AH: Former Ontario premier Bill Davis speaking with former “As It Happens” host Barbara Frum back in 1979. Bob Rae is Canada's Ambassador to the UN, and served as Ontario premier from 1990 to 1995. He counted Bill Davis as a political opponent, and a good friend. We reached Ambassador Rae in Toronto.

NK: Ambassador Rae, first of all, I have to say, you know, offer my condolences. We're very sorry for the loss of your friend, Bill Davis.

BOB RAE: Oh, well, thank you. I mean, I think it's a loss that’s shared by a great many people, but especially his... his remarkable wife and family. So it's much appreciated.

NK: That exchange we just heard, I think, safe to say quintessential Bill Davis. But what strikes you about what you heard between Premier Davis and Barbara Frum.

BR: [chuckle] You know, he was a master of sort of circumlocution. [NK chuckles] he could be very formal, you know, he rarely called me Bob, he always called me Robert. [laughing] Very few people call me Robert, but he was determined to call me Robert. And that was just the way he was, you know? He would... he would speak around things. He would, but he... but, you know, what he said at the end about how, you know, he and Peter Lougheed, you know, knew and liked each other, I think is important. I mean, I think there's often an attempt to kind of say, you know, if you disagree with somebody or you represent a different province with a different interests that you're... you're going to be antagonistic to other people and berate them and, you know, draw lines in the sand. And Bill Davis was not like that. And I think a lot of people were taken aback by his ability to reach out and get along with a lot of people, but also to really work very constructively with... with opponents. He had to do that. He led two minority governments, don't forget, in ‘75 and ‘77.

NK: There's nothing brash or... or bombastic about the Bill Davis we just heard there. [BR chuckles] Why do you think... you know, the words boring and bland, maybe people don't want to be described that way, but it works for him.

BR: [chuckling] He used to say bland works. He used to joke with... with people who would make fun of him for being dull and, you know, for having, you know, he liked football. He you know, he had very... tastes that were just him, just the way he was. He would, you know, talk about his favourite football team or a game he was going… he was very shy to admit that he liked going to Miami Dolphins games in Florida. He was just a very regular, affable person, but he was also extremely intelligent, very interested in substantive policy. And that's, I think, what was disarming about him was that he... he would occasionally sneak up on you politically. And… [chuckling] and he could eviscerate you without... without your feeling a thing.

NK: There's a story about you and Bill Davis on your very first day in the Ledge an NDP MPP, and there's a dentist involved... sort of.

BR: Yeah, well, I mean, he sent me a note saying he was very sorry he couldn't be there for... for the first day, which I thought was extremely nice of him. He said I was having some dental work. And I sent him back a note saying, you know, I understand you’re having your teeth sharpened. [both chuckle] Which he appreciated. And of course, you know, when he finally turned up in the legislature, his teeth were nice and sharp. He was ready to go. But beyond that, I find in my life he was a very... very open and affectionate friend. I mean, we... we'd become quite close and spent a lot of time just chatting on the phone, particularly during this COVID period. We chatted quite a bit. When I was premier, he was very supportive of what was a challenging time. I mean, he turned up at my nomination meeting or the meeting for the… to kick off my leadership bid for the Liberal Party in 2006. I was astonished that both he and Oscar Peterson turned up, [chuckling] which was not exactly expected. But that's the kind of person he was. He joked with the press and said, I'm not voting for him, but I just want to... want to wish him well. [chuckling some more]

NK: There has to be things that you disagreed on vehemently, though? And times that he did sneak up on you politically?

BR: Well, I think it's fair to say that, you know, when I was in the legislature, there was a sense that... that things had become a little complacent. And I you know, I would go on and on about several issues that we were raising involving nursing homes and social policy issues and how to move forward. But he... the thing about him was that I was new in the legislature, and he'd been there for 30 years. So he was, you know, we were 20 years... he had no problem foiling people. And we all thought he was going to run again. And I don't know what David Peterson thought, but I thought he'd be very hard to beat. But to everyone's surprise, in 1984, he announced his retirement. That then led to a convention, which elected Frank Miller and then the Accord government between Mr. Peterson and I, which he wasn't happy about. I mean, he made it clear to me that he... he didn't approve of that decision. [chuckle] I just said, look, 42 years is enough and you're not here. So we're moving on.

NK: Forty-two years of Conservative leadership in the province.

BR: That's right. That's a long time. We know growing up as a kid in Ontario, the assumption was Conservatives would always be in power. So getting... ending that era was... was something that I thought needed to be done.

NK: What kind of legacy... what kind of impact did he leave on Ontario, do you think, that people could still see today?

BR: Well, in many ways, you know, he was... he was what I would call a classic sort of Burkean conservative. He believed in reforming things in order to hold onto them. He really was the father of the modern education system in Ontario, which he'd be the first to say. And it's still needs... it's still needs attention. It still needs reform. It still needs improvement. He was very committed to access to education as well as excellence. He had a very keen sense of the whole... the whole of the... of the province. And he was a fierce partisan in political battles, but he also believed in governing from the centre. And he believed in appealing to everybody's base. He was not one of those people who thought that his job was to govern for the people who voted for him. He was very much somebody who believed in governing on behalf of the whole province. And cared a lot about Canada. He was not a narrow regional guy. He never liked to think of himself in that way. He cared a lot about the whole country. And I think that those are two things that stand out for me. And I have to say, I think all... anybody who wants to follow in his footsteps or follow with his successes has to... has to bear that approach in mind. He was a... he was a big man with a big heart and a great mind and a great spirit. I think all of us who knew him and got to know him well, as I was lucky to do, would feel that about him.

NK: Ambassador Rae, thank you so much for sharing your time and your memories.

BR: My pleasure. Nice talking to you.

AH: Bob Rae is Canada's Ambassador to the UN, and a former premier of Ontario. He was in Toronto.

[music: jazz]

Long Portage

AH: Relaxing and slow-paced aren't really words most people would probably use to describe a move. Stressful and soul-sucking are more apt, in my experience. But that's not the case for Bill Elgie and Leslie Hoyle. After recently retiring from their teaching jobs in the Georgetown, Ontario area -- northwest of Toronto -- the couple decided to move to Perth, southwest of Ottawa. And being avid paddlers, they decided they'd get to their new home by canoe and portage. So they shipped their stuff to their new place and, at the end of last month, took off on their 500 kilometre, month-long journey. On Friday, they spoke to the CBC about how the trip was going. They were around Port Hope, after travelling through the Greater Toronto Area.

SOUNDCLIP

BILL ELGIE: So it's not our usual type of canoe trip. Normally we'd camp every night. But going through the GTA, there's not always the option to do that. So we have been imposing on friends and staying with them along the way. We stayed in an Airbnb one night. We stayed at a hotel one night. But camping we can from here on mostly be able to camp, thankfully.

CARMEN KLASSEN: I'm wondering… and, Leslie, I want to ask you, how did you decide that when you were going to do the move up to Perth, it was going to be by canoe? What was that moment like?

LESLIE HOYLE: Oh, well, I think we talked about it, and then we told our grown up kids. And they said, oh, OK, that's crazy! But sure, go for it. [CK laughs] And I think the more people we told, the more real it became. And I think it wasn't until about the evening of day eight, we’re day 10 now, that I kind of realized how much paddling it really would involve. [chuckling] But anyway, it's going really well so far. And... and it is like Bill said, slow travel and just a chance to slow down, even though we're doing lots of paddling. But it feels good. It's relaxing.

CK: Bill, what have some of the highlights of the trip been so far?

BE: One big highlight for us was the Credit River. I've worked on the Credit River or next to the Credit River for a long time. And I know that in the summer, it's mostly very low. So we were fully expecting to have to walk down most of the Credit.. the Credit River from Norval to Port Credit. But it was such a wet July, and in particular wet late July, that we were able to paddle almost the entire length of it. And not only paddle it but run class one and class two rapids, which was really fun and playful. And also just exploring how the Credit River Valley looks really now. So you wouldn't know you're going right through downtown Mississauga because the Credit Valley Conservation Authority has done a really good job of protecting the banks. It feels very natural still. So that was a big highlight for me.

AH: That was Bill Elgie, Leslie Hoyle. They were speaking with the CBC's Carmen Klassen.

[music: ambient]

Enbridge Wild Rice Lawsuit

Guest: Frank Bibeau

AH: He's taking Minnesota's government to court -- and his lead plaintiff is wild rice. Frank Bibeau has filed a lawsuit in a tribal court against Minnesota’s Department of Natural Resources over the operating practices of the Canadian-owned Enbridge Line 3 pipeline. The suit accuses the department of failing to protect the state's freshwaters, violating First Nations treaty rights to fish and hunt, and failing to protect nature's right to exist and flourish. Mr. Bibeau, a treaty rights attorney, filed the complaint on behalf of the White Earth First Nation. We reached him today in Manassas, Virginia.

NK: Mr. Bibeau, why make wild rice your lead plaintiff?

FRANK BIBEAU: Wild rice is the most important spiritual, central part of our culture. Wild rice is what's making us come out and protect water and protecting Mahnomen, protecting our ecosystems and our environment. Wild rice, it needs to be protected. We have that covenant with wild rice. We are driven internally to come out and defend it. And so this makes the most sense, I think, in today's world with rights of nature and things like that to really put the story the way it needs to be told. Because otherwise, it's just a bunch of black ink on white paper in a file some place about some kind of crazy emotions. And really, Mahnomen is the story.

NK: What do you think will happen with the construction of this pipeline? How will it threaten wild rice?

FB: If it was allowed to be successful? It may very well be one of the last 20 global killers here on planet Earth. There's only a few big projects like this left that are really going to be doing things with fossil fuel and polluting our air and our water. Line 3 is one of them. And if we can stop this, as we expect to, then we're going to stop one of those global killers. And we may set the model, legally in court, for a different pathway to stop other things the same way.

NK: Do you think it would... it will damage the wild rice crops irreparably? Is that the concern?

FB: It's already done that in different ways. There's been oil spills in my area for the last, I don't know, 30 years. The world's... not the world's, but North America's largest inland oil spill wasn't Kalamazoo, Michigan. It was Grand Rapids, Minnesota. We had another disaster in 2002. We had another disaster in 2007 where people died. We had the Husky refinery catch fire here just a couple of years ago. They are not safe. They are not safe for anybody anymore. And this kind of exploitation and oppression needs to stop for everybody. We all deserve clean water, we all deserve clean air, and we should be able to give that to our children and their children.

NK: Enbridge says it's been consistently respectful of protected wild rice waters. And the state's Department of Natural Resources says it believes pumping in the groundwater will not have any long-term impact on the rice. What's your response to that?

FB: I think it's just the opposite. When you try to suck five billion gallons of water out of an aquifer, you're going to cause all of the other kinds of things, the other fertilizers and things that are on top of the ground and everywhere, to be also sucked down with future rain down to that aquifer. I think also by doing what they're doing, they're going to cause rice to diminish in certain places. And we won't understand. Because the DNR doesn't do a very good job now of managing wild rice. They say that wild rice used to exist in twice as many places as it does now -- in Minnesota, in Wisconsin, in Canada. But they don't care. The funny part is because of the drought right now, the legislature in Minnesota and the governor, they want to give a drought relief package to the farmers and ranchers who don't have any water. Here they are taking it from us to give it to a pipeline. It's probably their water that we would have let go downstream.

NK: Do you believe that the state would adhere to the ruling of a tribal court?

FB: I believe that the state is subject to a declaratory judgement because it doesn't have any, you know, painful outcomes or meaningful things in that sense. But when it comes to an injunction, I think we have to go to federal court to get that relief. And what I'm expecting is, is to try to accelerate and piggyback off of the tribal court process, to go to federal court with an established record already. With plenty of information to show how and why we came to our decision under our laws. And what Minnesota has and hasn't done. And I would hope that we could get the injunction from the federal court, and the federal court would say, I see why you're here. You get the injunction and everything else can go right back to tribal court if the state wants to finish the argument.

NK: At the very end of all of this, can you envision some sort of compromise? Or is the only solution in your mind that the pipeline construction stop completely?

FB: We have compromised already. I live by six pipelines from... from Enbridge right now. We are over compromised. We... the whole planet is compromised. The pipeline has to stop. The DNR is also going to have to recognize our rights and respect those rights. And that's why I think both of these are coming together right now. And it's the Creator who's making kind of a mockery of it by... by saying, hey, look, look what you're doing to the Earth. And now the Earth has to come out and sue you in front of God and everybody,

NK: You know, we're talking a lot today about climate change, the impact of it, given the new report that's come out this morning and the role that people have in... in causing the state of the world, the place where we're at today. Do you sense that there's a shift in... in understanding in the United States and specifically where you are? Are people listening more to Indigenous voices?

FB: Well, you know, this week I feel like they're listening to Mahnomen. But also in answer to your question, a lot of young people that I've met over the last few years in this struggle have made it very clear to me that they're plugged in now because they're worried they're going to spend the rest of their life fighting climate change, either physically or still in the courts and everything else. That is an ominous feeling to share. And I think there's more and more people concerned about their children, their grandchildren. Will there be clean water to drink? Is there going to be clean air to breathe? And if it takes Mahnomen, that's good. I don't know if you had a chance to read the complaint or not, but the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals granted an appeal of the Forest Service back in 2018. And at the end of 60 pages, that judge cited the Lorex from Dr. Seuss, who will speak for the trees? For the trees have no tongues.

NK: It's emotional.

FB: We've got to stand up. We have no choice. That's who we are. We're the people of the falls, people of the rivers, people the rice.

NK: Mr. Bibeau, I really appreciate your time.

FB: Thank you for spreading the word.

AH: Frank Bibeau is a treaty rights attorney representing the White Earth First Nation in Minnesota. He was in Manassas, Virginia.

[music: folk]

FOA: Orca Ramming

AH: Orcas are at it again. And by it, I mean ramming boats in Spain. Along the country's southern coast, there have been more than fifty encounters with killer whales since March. In half of those instances, the boats were so banged up, they needed to be towed to shore. So for two weeks, Spain is giving the orcas some space, banning small vessels from sailing along a stretch of sea between Cape Trafalgar and the small town of Barbate. It isn't the first time that orcas have attacked boats near Spain.Last year, Victoria Morris was aboard a 14-metre sailboat when she were surrounded by a pod of nine orcas, who wreaked havoc on the vessel and left her and her crewmates adrift. She spoke to host Carol last September about that experience. Here is part of their conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Victoria, I understand that you are just heading into the Strait of Gibraltar, in a gale. But you are heading to the very place where you encountered these orcas. Are you seeing any orcas today?

VICTORIA MORRIS: I'm going to hope not. But we possibly could. We're actually right now, probably exactly where we were getting attacked, actually. And it was about exactly the same time as well. [chuckling]

CO: So you say you hope not, but when you encountered them before, initially, you were quite intrigued. It was lovely to see the orcas, I understand?

VM: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've encountered them quite a lot in New Zealand. And they've always been really friendly. But they spent about five, ten minutes being lovely and playing around, and that quickly changed.

CO: Changed to what? Can you describe what the orcas did?

VM: They just started almost surrounding us in a circle, and coming to the rudder and the keel, and they started ramming the keel. And you could hear them scratching it, which we now know they were biting it with their teeth. And you could hear them on the rudder, and obviously, they were spinning the boat around. We had our autopilot, which disengaged as well. So they really just were going for us.

CO: And at one point, you had to contemplate abandoning ship?

VM: Yes, yes, so there's a possibility that the boat would have capsized. So we had to go down, get our grab bag ready and get the raft ready if we were to have to use that.

CO: When you went down below, you got a sense of the sound. Describe what that was like?

VM: It was like a whistle, like a very, very loud whistle. And there was lots of them, maybe about four or five of them doing that at the same time. And it was just so loud. There were suffers down there trying to get everything ready. And we couldn't even hear each other talk.

CO: Did you feel that it was coordinated?

VM: Yeah, yeah, definitely. [chuckling] I actually I said it was orca-strated. I said it a bit of a pun at the time, and it's been used everywhere, actually. [chuckling]

SOUNDCLIP

AH: Sailor Victoria Morris speaking with host Carol last September.

[music: ambient]

FOA: Chinese Elephants

AH: The wandering herd of Chinese elephants are wanderers no more. Seventeen months ago, the herd left their nature reserve, in southwest China, and embarked on a nomadic journey. All in all, they travelled more than five hundred kilometers, gave birth to a calf along the way, and caused more than a million dollars in damage. But now, the adventurous mammals are now heading back home. In June, we spoke to Joshua Plotnik -- an expert in Asian elephant cognition and behavior. He told Carol the possible reasons behind their journey.

SOUNDCLIP

JP: The biggest issue that these elephants are facing is lack of resources and pressure from human habitation. So, at the very least, these elephants are likely trying to find resources that were limited in the location where they came from, in the nature reserve in Xishuangbanna, in southern China. Or they were potentially pushed out by increasing human encroachment on their habitat. But we don't know that yet.

CO: How rare is it to have elephants in China outside of that nature reserve?

JP: To my knowledge, it's pretty rare. So there are roughly 300 elephants left in all of China, and they are exclusively living in Yunnan Province. To my knowledge, this is unprecedented in the sense that this small group, relatively small group of 15 elephants, just left a nature reserve where they had lived for quite a long period of time and have, you know, made a movement several hundred kilometres north. Certainly, in terms of the public reaction, that would tell you that this is a unique and novel experience for people.

CO: How are people in Yunnan responding to the elephants wandering around?

JP: Both local community members, government officials and scientists are working together, which is exceptional, to try to come up with ways to mediate the potential conflict here, right? So if you have elephants that are potentially raiding farmers' crops and causing damage to agriculture, you have to come up with a way of mitigating that as quickly as possible before the interactions between the elephants and the local people become even more negative. So from at least from what I've seen in press reports and what I've heard from other people on the ground, it does seem like people are really, at this point, very curious about what's happening. But at some point, it will become more desperate if the elephants become more aggressive or if they... if they end up causing more damage, then you might see an increase in the intensity of the conflict. And that's when it again becomes more of an immediate problem that needs fixing.

AH: That's Joshua Plotnik speaking to Carol in June.

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August 09, 2021 Episode Transcript

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