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The AIH Transcript For July 30, 2021

[hosts]Ginella Massa, Chris Howden[/hosts]

GINELLA MASSA: Hi, I'm Ginella Massa, sitting in for Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is “As It Happens”.

[music: theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

GM: Found in translation. The first planeload of Afghans who helped U.S. forces lands stateside -- but an Army veteran says many thousands more remain at risk, and time is running out to save them.

CH: He was not in it for the long haul. The founder of the electric truck company Nikola is charged with fraud for misrepresenting -- well, pretty much every single aspect of his operation.

GM: As a matter of artifact. The U.S. government says it will return a tablet from the Epic of Gilgamesh to Iraq -- but a guest says the timing has more to do with politics than principle.

CH: Kick starting the investigation. French police make quick arrests -- after a daring daylight jewellery heist that was unintentionally abetted by Jean-Claude Van Damme.

GM: How the Arthur half lives. With the news that the long-running children's cartoon is coming to an end, the former voice of "D.W." tells us how the show makes two-dimensional characters so three-dimensional.

CH: And... stone cold killers... cold stone killers also works. Because according to a new study, stones are among the weapons polar bears sometimes grab to whack their prey.

CH: “As It Happens”, the Friday edition. Radio that does not support the right to arm bears.

[music: theme]

Part 1: Afghan interpreters in U.S., Hobby Lobby tablet, Arthur ends

Afghan interpreters in U.S.

Guest: Matt Zeller

CH: Today, U.S. President Joe Biden issued a statement to a planeload of Afghans: "Welcome Home". Some 200 former interpreters who worked with U.S. forces and their families landed in Virginia to start new lives. As the U.S. withdraws and the Taliban continues its resurgence in Afghanistan, those who worked with U.S. forces and other allies are at risk of being rounded up and killed. Canada has been accused of moving too slowly to resettle Afghans. Matt Zeller is a former U.S. Army officer who has been campaigning to get former interpreters and others who helped U.S. forces out of Afghanistan. We reached him in Washington, D.C.

GM: Matt, what does it mean for you, after all this time to finally see these former Afghan interpreters land on U.S. soil?

MATT ZELLER: You know, I was there at Dulles. I watched the first plane land. I watched the first people get off it. It was witnessing a promise that our nation made to its allies finally being kept. And there really aren't adequate words for me to describe what that meant.

GM: Can you just talk to us a little bit about your experience with some of these interpreters, how vital they were to your time there and the relationships that you built with them?

MZ: I wouldn’t be alive talking to you if it wasn't for my Afghan interpreter. He saved my life in a battle 13 years ago when he shot and killed two Taliban fighters who were about to kill me. They were so important to our ability to do our jobs and survive. The Taliban would actually shoot at them before they shot at us in battles. They tried to kill them before us because they understood that if we didn't have the ability to speak with the Afghan population around us, we couldn't do our jobs.

GM: And so now, you know, with troops leaving, what kind of danger were they in in Afghanistan?

MZ: They're living under a death sentence unless we save them. The Taliban have made it abundantly clear that there is no reconciliation program for these people. They have deemed them what are called apostates, which means they are traitors and enemies of Islam. And it is a religious commandment to put them to death. They and their families will be murdered in the next several weeks if we don't save them now. Full stop.

GM: Have any already fallen victim?

MZ: Hundreds have fallen victim. We know of a very public example of just a couple of weeks ago, a gentleman by the name of Sohail Pardis was beheaded on his way, trying to pick up his sister for an Islamic celebration called Eid al-Adha. He was on the way from Kabul to a city called Khost, which is in eastern Afghanistan. And the Taliban checkpoint that they... the Taliban now control all of the roads between Afghanistan's cities. And they have access to the biometrics database that we built to try to identify people who worked for us. So they have our database. They have the devices that you can use to access that database. And they used it on this gentleman. And when they found out who he was, they beheaded him on the side of the road.

GM: And so, you know, obviously, I'm sure you're incredibly relieved to see this plane land today, but this is just the first wave of evacuations. How many more people still need to get out? As you said, it's not just the interpreters, but their families as well.

MZ: Yeah, I'm not... I'm not celebrating until this is over. And the reality is that while this... this plan is first great start, it represents 0.3 per cent of the total Afghan population that needs saving. The remaining 99.7 per cent, which works out to about 88,000 people, are still left behind in Afghanistan. About 44,000 people have no means to get to the one airport in the country from which we're going to be launching these evacuation flights, at least as of now, which is the airport in Kabul. We don't have an announced plan on how we're going to move those people to Kabul. And so until I hear that until we... somebody tells me how we're going to get people out of Herat or Kandahar, you know, this is a great first step, but it's only a little first step. We need to take a giant leap if we're going to actually save these people.

GM: Is there enough political will in the U.S. to get these people the help they need and fast?

MZ: I fear there might not be, because in the end, the reality is is that we have to physically move them to safety. But the reality, again, is that half of our Afghan wartime allies, some 44,000 people, cannot get to the one airfield that we are launching evacuations from. The Afghan military does not have the capability to move these people. They’re actively losing the country to the Taliban. They can't even protect themselves, let alone their own civilians. The only country in the world with the resources to save these people is the United States of America. And quite frankly, that would take us sending back in our military assets like the entirety of, for example, the 82nd Airborne, which is one of the units that we keep on 48-hour recall orders that they can be deployed anywhere in the world within 48 hours. We would need to basically send them back in Afghanistan to retake territory that we held mere weeks ago. That is really the only way that we're going to effectively move these people out. And I don't know if we have the will to do that?

GM: I was going to say, I suppose it's a pretty hard sell?

MZ: Yeah, I really fear that the United States of America lacks the courage and conviction at this point to do what's necessary to save these people.

GM: We're recording in Canada, where we also have troops that worked with Afghan interpreters. And this government has also committed to helping get them out to safety and to Canada, but this country has been accused of dragging its feet. And so when you look at what's happening in the U.S. and you look at what's happening in Canada, is there any message for the Canadian government, who is still a step behind where the U.S. is in terms of getting folks out?

MZ: You know, the reality is this. We try to tell people the “so-what” of all of this is that the Taliban when they murder these people, film it. And the films that they create are not for people like you and I or, you know, the average Canadian or the average American. They’re for the people that we might ask to one day partner with us. And what they're trying to demonstrate to the world. It's not just America, but NATO, Western civilization, if you want to call it... whatever it is. That alliance that just came in, if you partner, then that friendship is a death sentence. That's what they're trying to convince future friends of ours. And so what I'm desperately trying to convince people is if you save an Afghan life today, you might save one of your countrymen's lives tomorrow. Because we have no idea who we're going to need standing next to us to accomplish our missions going forward. And I am living proof that without those allies, some of us don't get a second chance of coming home.

GM: Matt, thanks so much for speaking with us today.

MZ: My pleasure. It's been an honour. Thank you.

CH: Matt Zeller is a former U.S. Army officer and the chair of the advocacy group No One Left Behind. We reached him in Washington.

[music: vocalization]

Hobby Lobby Tablet

Guest: Sara Farhan

CH: Exactly how the Gilgamesh Dream Tablet left Iraq is still a mystery. But at least we now know how it's going back to Iraq. This week, the U.S. government announced that the tablet would be returned to its home country. Authorities seized it from the American arts and crafts company, Hobby Lobby -- which bought it from an auction house and put it on display in their Museum of the Bible. Recently, Hobby Lobby has turned over more than 5,000 Iraqi artifacts, believed to have been looted from Iraq. But this one is especially significant. Sara Farhan is a history professor at the American University of Sharjah. We reached her in Sharjah, in the United Arab Emirates.

GM: Professor Farhan, what does it mean to see the U.S. return the Gilgamesh Dream Tablet to Iraq?

SARA FARHAN: I think that this is a really important moment where the United States is finally recognizing the consequences of 2003, and the heavy damage that Iraq has paid. It's meaningful because you do see the U.S. legal system involved here, the Mea Culpa, the actual admission that this is not OK. And a high-profile company associated with this, Hobby Lobby. So a lot of this really is bringing to light the degree of plunder and destruction that Iraq has endured for a long, long time.

GM: So let's go back a little bit and talk about how an immensely important artifact like this ends up in the hands of an American arts and crafts company. What do we know about how this happened?

SF: Right. So smuggling is a very lucrative informal economy. Hobby Lobby, apparently when they were caught, that's when they started to sort of admit that we were not really familiar with the acquisition business, and we didn't know how to properly authenticate the provenance of these artifacts. Now, part of this informal economy is that you manipulate where you acquired these artifacts. You change what they are when you're shipping them. All of these are part of the confusion, part of the very sophisticated way that these smugglers have evaded being caught.

GM: And these are incredibly important artifacts, mostly 3,000, 4,000 years old. And this is one of 17,000 other artifacts that will be returned. But what's so important about this particular epitaph?

SF: Gilgamesh is a phenomenal story. This is the first epic piece of literature. It's our site of origin. We are all equally connected to Gilgamesh. It has multiple stories of adventures, moral lessons of friendship, and the fact that it talks about various important cities revered by multiple monotheistic religions. In the case of Hobby Lobby, I'm going to emphasize Christianity. This is a Christian company, after all. These are all ancient civilizations that highlight the history of Iraq, and sort of it transcends the ethnic, the religious, and any class divides. So this is why this history is important to Iraq, but of course, to the world. This is a global heritage in a way.

GM: Right. And, you know, in 2003, 15,000 artifacts were looted from the National Museum of Iraq. ISIS destroyed some hugely significant sites. So how important is it to protect this Iraqi culture moving forward?

SF: Iraq does understand the worth, the value of these priceless artifacts. The problem is it hasn't established a balance where its citizens are equally respected and valued to the history that the rest of the world seems to understand and appreciate. We do see effort. We see the support of academic institutions outside of Iraq assisting. Of course, this is an exchange for excavation trips. But what this particular case, and Gilgamesh in particular, the return of this tablet to Iraq, is monumental because it's receiving a lot of attention. It's putting the spotlight on Iraq. And it's presenting the prime minister, Al-Kadhimi, as capable. Capable of providing justice for Iraq. Having said that, the timing is really interesting because there is an election coming up in October. And this process has been ongoing since 2018, so way before Al-Kadhimi took his position as prime minister. He's right now presented himself as the face of this monumental return of Iraqi heritage. Much like, you know, Gilgamesh himself is going on on all of these adventures and returning back to his kingdom.

GM: Yeah, you answered my last question, which was about why now? And you say it's definitely political.

SF: One thing that we have to remember is also it's the Iraqi governments that allowed these artifacts to be looted. Yes, of course, this occurred during an invasion where there's chaos, and people are again trying to find their missing family members. But on the other hand, we do see evidence of that, especially when ISIS was rampaging in the north. We do see the civilians in Mosul quickly protecting their heritage sites. There's, for example, a shopkeeper that just ran in in Mosul and protected the records of a Jewish school because he knew what was about to happen. So it's remarkable that Iraqis themselves are protecting their artifact, their history. Meanwhile, the government is way too busy, sort of presenting itself as a Gilgamesh-like in 2021, in the case of Al-Kadhimi. At the same time, the Iraqis right now don't have access, sufficient access, to water, to electricity, to proper health care during a pandemic.

GM: I mean, regardless of the motive, are you hopeful that this move, this returning of this important artifact to its rightful place, can also put pressure and open the door for others around the world to be able to bring those items home?

SF: Yes, of course, and there are other artifacts that are being brought back, including incantation bowls. But Gilgamesh is the big piece. And we're hoping that there is a recognition and appreciation for why these artifacts should go back to Iraq. And also, it might put pressure on the current government to take advantage of the tourist potential that these artifacts can draw. And therefore invest in developing Iraq, at least from a security point. This is a, you know, a very scandalous, sensational topic, but it does not mean that there aren't other cases that we're not aware of. We actually don't even know what's missing from Iraq, mainly because in a quick effort to protect some of the artifacts we've presented, sort of like copies for public viewing and kept the originals hidden, sort of to secure them. Little do we know, it's actually that in our effort to preserve the original copies, we've sort of made them more vulnerable. So we have no idea really what degree we're looking at and how much more of these really priceless artifacts are out there.

GM: Professor Farhan, thanks so much for your insights.

SF: Thank you so much.

CH: Sara Farhan is a history professor at the American University of Sharjah. We reached her in Sharjah, which is just north of Dubai, in the U.A.E.

[music: the theme to Arthur by Ziggy Marley]

Arthur Ends

Guest: Jason Szwimer

SOUNDCLIP

SINGER: Every day when you're walking down the street, and everybody that you meet has an original point of view. And I say hey.

CHORUS: Hey! WHat a wonderful kind of day. If you can learn to work and play. And get along with each other.

CH: It was a wonderful kind of day whenever this song by Ziggy Marley came on. The theme song to the PBS cartoon Arthur, a show about a bespectacled 8-year-old aardvark, his friends and family, and their many adventures. Their many, many, many adventures: Arthur is the longest-running animated kids' show ever. It's been on the air since 1996. But this week, the show's executive producer announced that the upcoming 25th season will be the last. There are a lot things to love about Arthur. But one of the most loveable is his sassy younger sister, Dora Winifred Read. Jason Szwimer was the voice of D.W. from 2002 to 2006 and is now the host of the podcast Finding D.W. We reached Mr. Szwimer in Toronto.

GM: Jason, how does it feel hearing that Arthur is going to be ending after 25 seasons?

JASON SZWIMER: I mean, it's... it's devastating. I really think I took it for granted that Arthur, you know, is this institution. It's been around for as long as I've been alive. And I think I always thought it would be around. So I was really surprised when I found out.

GM: It certainly was a big part of my childhood. It was one of the few shows my parents let us watch because it was educational and wholesome. And I think a lot of people who either were kids or had kids over the last 25 years feel the same way. I mean, I can definitely recite all of the words to that theme song we heard. Why do you think people are so drawn to this show?

JS: I think that the characters are very relatable. And I think that the writing is really good. I mean, it's a show that is obviously for kids, but it's not necessarily written for kids. And what I mean by that is, you know, when you watch the show now as an adult, it's clear that, you know, it's not watered down or talking down to a, quote/unquote, like level for kids or something.

GM: Yeah, I always thought it was really funny. And a lot of it, as you say, holds up. I watched back a couple clips today ahead of our interview, and I was still laughing along with them. And so many memorable moments from the show as well. Did you have any sort of favourite episodes or... or favourite, you know, moments from the show?

JS: The answer is... is Bleep. That's my favourite episode that I was in. It's an episode where D.W. learns a swear word. And she thinks she's learned a magical word that makes older people drop things.

GM: [laughing] Well, as you say, D.W., Arthur's little sister, definitely a fan favourite. She has this sassy attitude. She's got a lot of one liners and savage comebacks. Let's hear some of her best moments.

SOUNDCLIP

FRANCINE: Hey, D.W.

D.W.: Francine, can I ask you a question?

FRANCINE: Sure. Anything.

D.W.: Why don't you go back to your own house and stop bothering us?

D.W.: That sign can't stop me because I can't read.

BINKY: We're not doing a dumb play about ponies and unicorns.

D.W.: You have to do what I want, or you'll get an F.

BINKY: Oh yeah? Well, if you don't do what I want, you'll get an F.

D.W.: I'm in pre-school. We don't have grades!

GM: [laughing] That last one was you. Because there were a couple of different voice actors who played

D.W. So a couple of interesting things here. Number one is I was shocked to learn that D.W. was always played by boys. And this is part of your podcast is kind of exploring with some of the other actors who are voicing D.W. What have you learned through that experience?

JS: I mean, well, for starters, I mean, I was definitely just like you. I... you know, when I was cast on the show, I was really excited. And it was only later that I realized D.W. had been played exclusively by male voice actors. And my podcast is like you're saying, my journey to reach out to and... and try to interview and find all of these actors. And along the way, I'm trying to answer, you know, whether... I'm trying to figure out how having played such a... a big character that so many people love has affected me?

GM: And how has it affected you? I mean, you were a kid when... when you voiced D.W. You started at the age of 10. Did people know that you were the voice of D.W.? And what was that like?

JS: Yeah, I mean, I was leaving school three times a week to go and record. And so kids would ask me, you know, is everything OK? Like, what do you... what are you doing? And I told them, yeah, you know, I'm leaving because I'm the voice of D.W. on Arthur. And at first, no one believed me. [GM chuckles] And then I remember one time in elementary school, I brought in for show and tell a VHS of an episode of me playing D.W. and showed it to the class. So I think I was something of like a local celebrity or something.

GM: Nice! [chuckling]

JS: You know what? And sometimes it was nice. But other years of my life where, you know, like teenage years where, you know, you kind of want to try to figure out who you are and maybe don't want to draw so much attention to yourself. It was definitely challenging at times. But again, as I've gotten older and as I've sort of charted a career in entertainment, it's something that I want to embrace. And that's what I'm doing with my podcast.

GM: You know, it's also become a bit of a meme online with... with some of her... her witty comebacks and one-liners. What's it like to see that in the universe?

JS: I mean, I think it's cool. I love that D.W. has been embraced. You know, I love when sometimes I'll get to speak to somebody who, you know, like a... a woman who's in a position of power, who can say, like bosses I've had or, you know, executive assistants or, you know, all kinds of cool people, executives who are like, yeah, I... I cite D.W. as an early influence.

GM: Oh wow!

JS: Yeah. When I say executive assistant, I was thinking of one person in particular. A woman I just spoke to today. [GM chuckles] She had a... she had a D.W., like a cut-out of D.W., on like a pencil cup on her desk. And when I met her, I walked by, and I was like, why do you have that there? Because I thought she was like pranking me or something. [GM chuckles] And she goes, oh, I just love D.W. And I said, OK. And I kept walking.

GM: [laughing] I mean, I definitely think Arthur had some pretty strong female characters. And I think back to watching, you know, thinking about Francine and D.W., you know, they were not pushovers. They were not [chuckling] sweet, nice little girls. They spoke their mind. And... and, yeah, they were strong female characters. And I think for me, you know, when I think about Arthur, there was a lot of sort of progressive, you know, storylines and characters in the show. Do you agree with that? And do you hear people talking about that?

JS: Absolutely. I totally agree. And it's... it's something that I've... that I've seen and that I'm told. And I just think it's so cool. Like, I, I you know, it's so interesting how much the world has changed from when I was doing the voice of D.W., you know, in the early 2,000 to now. And I think it's really awesome that at that time, there were these strong female characters. You know, as you mentioned, you know, Francine and D.W. are kind of outliers in... for that time in children's television in particular and in the media in general. So I think it's really special that I got to play the voice of a character like that. You know, I was a small part of making... of that character. And I think that character's lasting legacy is really special.

GM: Jason, such a pleasure to chat with you. Thanks so much for joining us.

JS: Oh, thanks so much for having me. This was so, so cool.

CH: Jason Szwimer was the voice of D.W. on Arthur from 2002 to 2006, and is now the host of the podcast Finding D.W. He was in Toronto. And we have more on this story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: glassy guitar]

Jewel Heist

CH: The heist was brazen. The haul was huge. And the thief was full of energy. But his getaway vehicle was two-tired. This week, an exclusive jeweller near the Champs-Élysées in Paris was robbed. The robber posed as a client, asking to see several high-priced items before pulling a knife. He scooped up the goods, and scooted into the afternoon with upwards of three million dollars worth of jewels. And by "scooted", I mean he was on an electric scooter. The kind you stand on. Now, obviously, it was well-planned. But still: it was daytime. It was crowded. How had the thief escaped attention? Well, in a stunning twist, witnesses are pointing to an accidental accomplice: action star Jean-Claude Van Damme. Apparently, Mr. Van Damme was at a nearby optician, possibly doing the splits. But probably just standing there, trying on frames. Now, either way, he created a diversion. Which, although purely coincidental, was really a glasses-half-full kind of situation for the jewel thief. Well, a day later, French police arrested two suspects and recovered most of the jewelry. So, in the end, a failure of a heist. The thief does get partial credit for taking advantage of the distracting action star. But really, that's Van Damme-ing him with faint praise.

[music: ambient]

Part 2: Electric Truck Company Fraud, Polar Bear Tool Use

Electric Truck Company Fraud

Guest: Claire Bushey

CH: He claimed his trucks were zero-emission. But according to the charges, he was powering his whole company with hot air. Yesterday, Trevor Milton -- the founder of the hydrogen and battery-powered vehicle company Nikola -- was charged with trying to defraud investors with false claims about a new transport truck. Mr. Milton left the Nikola Motor Company last year after reports emerged that a prototype wasn't quite as road-ready as he'd led everyone to believe. Claire Bushey has been following Peter Milton's troubles from the start. Ms. Bushey is the Chicago correspondent for the Financial Times. We reached her in Chicago.

GM: Claire, the list of allegations against Mr. Milton is pretty extraordinary, but there's one that jumps out. Can you talk to us about the one that involves a Nikola prototype rolling itself powerless down a hill?

CLAIRE BUSHEY: Yes, this hill is pretty infamous at this point. What happened is Trevor Milton didn't actually have a working prototype, and so they wanted to film a promotional video. And so they... they got the truck to the top of the hill, and then they let off the brakes, and they let it roll downhill. And when you see this video later, instead of appearing on a hill, it's, you know, the grade has been fixed. It looks like the truck is moving over flat land under its own propulsion, when in fact, that was not the case. First, a short-seller pointed it out. And now federal prosecutors said the same thing in their indictment yesterday.

GM: Wow. And I mean, this is pretty shocking considering this is a company that was once valued at as much as 26 billion dollars. It was meant to be the next Tesla. And now, this long list of allegations against its founder. Let's talk a little bit more about what are some of the other things that prosecutors are accusing Mr. Milton of when it comes to misleading investors?

CB: Basically, they're saying that he overstated what technology the company actually had. And he did so in order to get investors, particularly like small retail investors, to buy the company's stock and to push it upwards, which personally enriched him. They said that they had a fully functioning prototype when they didn't. They said that this pickup truck that they were going to build with their own technology, and they were going to build it from the ground up. And that wasn't true. They said that they were going to develop a way to cheaply produce hydrogen, which was critical to the company's business model, when, in fact, they weren't producing it at any price at all. So there's a kind of a whole litany of things that federal prosecutors have said that Trevor Milton lied about. And the U.S. attorney in Manhattan said, you know, at the end of the day, this is a very straightforward case, quote, he told Lies to generate demand for Nikola’s stock.

GM: Hmm. And... and his own pocket as well. He aspired to be on the Forbes 100 richest people list. And the value of his stock grew to eight-and-a-half billion at Nikola’s peak. Of course, he's denying these reports. And we should say that these allegations haven't been proven in court. And he was blaming these accusations on incompetent journalists, a firm of greedy short sellers. But he eventually left the company back in September. What forced him and Nikola to part ways?

CB: He resigned following a first report by short-seller Hindenburg Research, which put together really a quite damning list of allegations, many of which were then repeated by federal prosecutors in yesterday's indictment. And that brought a great deal of scrutiny to the company and then also resulted in some unsettling and unpleasant allegations about Trevor Milton personally being posted online. And then he... he... he left the company, he resigned.

GM: Mr. Milton pleaded not guilty yesterday to the charges against him. But can you give us any sense of what, you know, his defence lawyers have planned in order to fight this case?

CB: His legal team has said that he is going to be exonerated and that the government is criminalizing lawful business contact. They say that every business executive in America should be worried about this particular case. And I've talked to lawyers in the past who do corporate fraud cases. And fraud is pretty hard to prove, actually, because you have to also prove that the person knew they were lying about it.

GM: Right.

CB: And, you know, that's a state of mind issue. And so that can be difficult. It gets into this question of like, where's the line between hype and believing your own hype and then, you know, actually not believing your own hype and telling lies and trying to get people to buy-in. It can be a difficult line to suss out in the courtroom.

GM: And so should other business leaders, should they be worried about this case? Is that a valid argument, you know, based on what you're hearing?

CB: I think the prosecutors have a pretty strong case.

GM: Hmm. You know, the first case that came to mind when I thought about this was Elizabeth Holmes and Theranos. Mr. Milton isn’t the first entrepreneur to make claims about a... about a disruptive technology. So, you know, is this a sign that, you know, these... these thinkers, the next Elon Musk's, the next, you know, Steve Jobs, they have to be careful about what they are promising?

CB: I would actually switch that around. I would say that investors and companies that do business with these charismatic founders of companies just really need to do their due diligence because there's a tendency to assume that other people who got involved in a venture before you did their homework. And that was certainly the case with Theranos. And it was also the case with Nikola. Trevor. Milton's previous business ventures ended in lawsuits. There were difficulties and bad feelings that could have been discovered by companies and investors before this company went public and was valued briefly at more than Ford. So it's really important on the people who are investing to... to do their research.

GM: All right, Claire Bushey, thanks so much for speaking with us.

CB: Thank you for having me.

CH: Claire Bushey is the Financial Times' Chicago correspondent.

[music: glassy guitar]

Quebec Senator

CH: Michèle Audette says she first dreamed of becoming a Canadian senator when she was just a child, after a visit to Parliament Hill. Yesterday, that dream became a reality. The Prime Minister appointed the former head of the inquiry into Canada's murdered and missing Indigenous women and girls to parliament's chamber of sober second thought. And while Ms. Audette is no longer that little girl from the Innu community of Uashat mak Mani-Utenam in Quebec -- she's still pretty excited about her new job.

SOUNDCLIP

MICHELE AUDETTE: I don't know which words or how can I explain, but my spirit is still vibrating after this… [PT laughs] this new pair of moccasins that I will have to honour me and my family. Of course, I'm not alone in that book. [chuckling]

PETER TARDIF: What are you carrying with you, bringing with you from your community that you will want to reflect in your work?

MA: The sense of human, the humour, the resilience, but also that we have to do that no matter when and how. We have to continue. And it's a teaching that I've been receiving since we moved to Mani-Utenam that there's a legislation across Canada that is taking us or forcing us to live in those conditions. So Mani-Utenam was able to show also to me that let's be proud to be Innu. Let's not forget that we have a history, but let's open our arms and, you know, to the neighbours, the Quebecois and the Canadian. And that for me, it was and it's still an amazing and important teaching.

PT: Just this past spring, you accompanied the family of Joyce Echaquan during the coroner's inquiry into her death. We heard you at the time say how much you'd learned from them. You have also been working with University Laval, a senior adviser for reconciliation and Indigenous education. Are you concerned that by sitting in the Senate, you won't have as much time to do that one-on-one work with First Nations communities, maybe losing some of that independence to choose the projects that are meaningful that you want to work on?

MA: There'll be days I'll be crying. I have to be honest. There'll be days I'll be unhappy or very, very proud or very happy. But let's remember that there's Joyce Echaquan. When... when I heard Carol, I couldn't tell him that I was having those interviews to see if I should be appointed. So I was giving him a big hug on June 3rd when we finished that walk. And I said maybe one day I'll be able to push and make sure that Joyce Echaquan will be adopted. I can't tell you more, but this is what I will do. And they were the first one I connected yesterday when I got the official announcement. The Atikamekw family that I... I was walking with and I'm still going to walk with them in another capacity, but with the same, you know, love or energy or, you know, cries and tears or praying with them. So it's something I will continue.

CH: That was newly-appointed Senator Michèle Audette, speaking to Peter Tardif on CBC's "Quebec AM".

[music: carnival music]

Polar Bear Tool Use

Guest: Ian Stirling

CH: As the largest land carnivores in existence, polar bears are plenty frightening all on their own. On a good day, their prey have to contend with razor-sharp teeth, a keen sense of smell, and up to 1,500 pounds of muscle. On a bad day, their prey may also be dealing with the bears' occasional use of lethal weapons. That's according to new research published by the Arctic Institute of North America. Ian Stirling is one of the world's foremost experts on polar bears and the lead author of the study. We reached him in Edmonton.

GM: So, Mr. Stirling, why don't you begin by describing how polar bears might be using these tools? What exactly are they doing?

IAN STIRLING: Well, the idea is that they are trying to kill animals that they can't kill by biting. So they normally hunt seals. And the seals have skulls which are very easy to crush. But walruses have very heavy, thick skulls, and a polar bear simply cannot bite into the skull. So the idea is that they may pick up a piece of stone or piece of ice and throw it at the walrus to try to either stun it so it can go in and kill it later or to actually kill it outright, as is the basic idea in the background.

GM: How significant is this... this research in terms of understanding what polar bears can do and how they interact with the world?

IS: Well, the really interesting thing about it is that bears as a group are really very, very intelligent animals, very good at solving problems. So they're really... the most significant part of this is that the bear is able to look at a situation, think of it in a three dimensional sense, and then figure out what it might have to do to be successful. The most interesting example of their ability to do this is this bear in Japan in a zoo that they were trying to keep him busy and occupied by putting a piece of food out of reach up above him. And the bear looked at this for a while and then devised a couple of different tools to be able to get at this food that it couldn't get any other way. One was by holding a big stick and trying to knock it off, and the other was by picking up a piece of the thing like a small lifebuoy but heavy and then shooting it with both paws like a basketball player until they knocked it off. Now, to be able to do something like that requires a pretty high level of thinking and ability to connect different kinds of activities with... with... with a final source.

GM: And do we know if all polar bears do this or only some?

IS: It's probably very few, but there are enough observations around over the long term to indicate that it's not just a myth like people have often thought it was, but it probably is quite rare in its actual occurrence.

GM: Now, this is something that Inuit hunters have actually been describing as seeing as far back as the 1700s. So why is this research only now confirming this?

IS: Well, I don't know why other people haven't looked at it. There was an Inuit hunter in Greenland in the late 90s that made a recent report on this kind of behaviour. We decided that there may be something more there if we dig in. So we spent about a year going through all of the reports of... and from Indigenous hunters on traditional knowledge in many parts of the Arctic. And scanned and scanned. And we did find a fair number of reports. There was enough there that indicated, I think, that this event actually does occur once in a while, but it is very unusual.

GM: So what message do you think all of this sends about the importance of listening to traditional Indigenous knowledge?

IS: One of the things that I have done over the years has worked with a lot of experienced Inuit hunters out on the sea ice. And one thing that you become aware of very quickly is that if an experienced hunter tells you he's seen something, you can pretty well take that for granted that's quite true. So the fact that there were so many of these kinds of reports indicated that there was something out there that might be worth looking at nobody had looked at before. So part of my rationale for doing it was because it was a... it was a way of... of representing the Inuit knowledge of polar bears as pretty darn good.

GM: And since you published the research, I understand that you've also started to receive more evidence of this?

IS: Yes. We've got a video sent to us by a scientist in Alaska who had some little GoPro cameras attached to a satellite radio collar of the bear and actually recorded seeing a bear pick up pieces of ice and push them toward the edge of the of the lead and throw them out in the lead as if it was a tool. So that was pretty interesting.

GM: Wow! And what does this also tell us just not just about polar bears, but about the animal kingdom and... and the way they potentially use tools?

IS: There's been a great deal of interest in tool-using in animals for quite a number of years, but basically, the situation falls into two categories. Animals which are prey, basically, their main job is to escape being eaten. But for animals that are predators like polar bears or many other species, their job is to try and figure out how to prevent an animal from getting away or how to get access to it. I think the fact that polar bears do this kind of thing and there's also been a recent study of captive grizzly bears in Washington state. What it tells us is that it fits in with many other species of predators, which are able to think conceptually in three dimensions of how to access the prey.

GM: Do you expect to see this kind of behaviour becoming more common, particularly with climate change making it harder for polar bears to hunt in the more conventional way?

IS: That's a possibility. One can only speculate that thinking of some of these unusual ways of hunting, maybe get a lot of a lot more selective pressure, and the more worthwhile is for them to spend their time trying to do that. That's a possibility. But right at the moment, we don't have any evidence to suggest that it is or is not the case.

GM: Well, Mr. Stirling, this is interesting work, and I look forward to reading more of your research as you get further into it. Thank you.

IS: You're welcome.

CH: Ian Stirling is a Research Scientist Emeritus for Environment and Climate Change Canada and an Adjunct Professor at the University of Alberta. We reached him in Edmonton. You can find more on this story on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: glassy guitar]

Lytton Update

CH: It happened so suddenly. One month ago today, residents of Lytton, British Columbia and the surrounding area were forced to flee their homes. Fire would end up devastating the village, leaving ruined houses and acres of charred ground. Janet Webster is chief of the Lytton First Nation, which had dozens of members living in town, and about 900 living nearby on reserve. This afternoon, she was asked whether people were getting adequate government support, including mental health support.

SOUNDCLIP

JANET WEBSTER: With people spread all over, it's really hard. I know the First Nation health authority has been help to bring mental health to the different various locations. I'm not sure if all of the people are taking that support because I'm still hearing that people are under a lot of stress. They don't know what to do. They have no home to go to. Some are traumatized, running through the town with the fire. Running through town and trying to get out. And so there is a lot of trauma. And I can't tell you if they're really getting the support because, like I said, they're so spread out all over.

GLORIA MACARENKO: Yeah. You know, I remember the... the conversations when people first had to flee. There were so many question marks about what's left of our town? Is my house still there? Is our, you know, grocery store still there? So you were able to tour the area. I know there were helicopter tours. There were some car tours through there. Can you take us back to that moment? Just what was going through your mind as you saw the site for the first time after the fire?

JW: It was a very emotional time for me to see. I went to Boston Bar to get on the helicopter to go oversee the community of Lytton and our Lytton First Nation that were burnt. Today, the fires are still burning in our back of our valley, about 15 kilometres out. We still have fire in our... near our lakes, Botanie and Pasulko, and another area that they call Lookout -- where hunters go gathering our foods. They're still on fire today. And the damage, it was a very emotional sight to see our people's homes burnt, our community burnt down to nothing. There is nothing really there. And so it is so emotional. They also even took me on a tour to my area where I live about nine, 10 miles out of town on Lillooet Highway. The fire got there from two mile… four mile to nine mile. And it almost... it could it took the homes, too. But thanks to the firefighters, they were able to save the homes except one home near seven mile.

CH: That was Chief Janet Webster of the Lytton First Nation speaking with the CBC's Gloria Macarenko, one month after fire devastated the BC community of Lytton.

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July 30, 2021 Episode Transcript

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