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The AIH Transcript For July 27, 2021

[hosts]Ginella Massa, Chris Howden[/hosts]

GINELLA MASSA: Hi, I'm Ginella Massa, sitting in for Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is “As It Happens”.

[music: theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

GM: The world turned upside down. The president of the Nuu-cha-nulth Tribal Council is happy to be alive, after the float plane she was on flipped after take-off -- and she found her head in the water.

CH: The Bermuda triathlete angle. Flora Duffy swims, bikes, and runs her way to gold -- and her brother says Bermuda erupted in celebration when she became the country's first-ever Olympic champion.

GM: Reading them the Riot Act. Four officers who were attacked defending the U.S. Capitol during the January 6th insurrection testify in vivid detail about what they endured that day -- and demand accountability.

CH: Going great gun. Fans of Billy the Kid break out in a Colt sweat with the news that the Colt revolver Pat Garrett used to shoot the Wild West outlaw is going up for auction.

GM: If you're not parrot of the solution, you're parrot of the problem. And the cockatoos in Sydney, Australia are definitely the latter -- new research shows they're teaching each other to open garbage cans.

CH: And... many hands made the light work. A Canadian engineer and his team are beaming, after collaborating to make the world's brightest flashlight -- and he'll illuminate us as to how it works.

CH: “As It Happens”, the Tuesday edition. Radio that anticipates a glowing review.

[music: theme]

Part 1: B.C. Float Plane, U.S. Riots Hearing, World's Brightest Flashlight

B.C. Float Plane

Guest: Judith Sayers

CH: Judith Sayers's day took a scary turn yesterday. From right-side-up to upside-down. The president of the Nuu-chah-nulth Tribal Council boarded a float plane in Tofino, British Columbia, with her 31-year-old son. They readied themselves for take-off. But instead of the air, they soon found themselves in the water. We reached Judith Sayers in Tofino.

GM: Judith, how are you feeling today after what you went through?

JUDITH SAYERS: Well, I'm actually very happy that I'm alive and my son is alive, and the others on the plane are alive and that we didn't have any serious injuries. I'm feeling a bit tired and sore in the ribs and on one leg. But other than that, I'm doing OK.

GM: Yeah, you mentioned your son who's with you. I understand he, you say, helped save your life?

JS: Yes, he certainly did. Yeah, I... I didn't know that our plane was upside down. No clue that that had happened. And so all I know is I... my first realization is that my head's in the water. So I tried to lift that a couple of times, you know, because I guess the water kept coming into the plane. And then I just couldn't do it anymore. And I guess it maybe was my position. There was too much water. And then I felt some hands lifting my head up and turning it to the left. And... and I could... I could breathe. And then I guess he ended my seatbelt. [chuckling] I don't remember any of this, but I must have fallen to the roof. And then they all... the other three or four men helped me out of the plane, like, squeezed me out of a window, [laughing] literally squeezed me out of a window.

GM: Wow!

JS: Yeah, I know.

GM: So take us back to when you were taking off. When did you realize something was wrong?

JS: Well, you know, we were taxiing out of Tofino Harbour. We were going to Hesquiaht. And it seemed to be taking a long time to taxi out. And I don't know why? Because I'm used to, you know, harbour air flights in Vancouver, but they're bigger planes. And so I kind of know how long it takes to taxi out and get in the air. And then it seemed to me that we got into the air, but not high. And then we started, you know, tilting to the right and the left. I don't know how many times we did that if we only did it twice or more. And then the next thing I knew, I'm [chuckle] conscious of being with my head under the water.

GM: You hadn't realized that it had actually turned upside down?

JS: No, I didn't know that. I had no clue, you know, like where I was, what was going on. And because I could feel us stop, you know? And my head was there, and I could feel glass around my hands. And so, I was trying to push myself up. And so I just really couldn't move because the seatbelt was so very tight.

GM: Wow! And so reports, we understand that the plane hit a sandbar. How many people were... were on board with you and your son?

JS: There was five in total with the pilot.

GM: And how are they doing? Have you been in touch with them since?

JS: Just with my son. And he had a really sore back and neck and is feeling a bit better today. And then I was talking to the wife of one of the other passengers, and they say he's doing OK. So, yeah, it's... I haven't reached out... I don't know how to reach the pilot. And I... I did reach out to, like, the person we're going to do some business with last night. And he was just so happy to be at home his family in Nanaimo. It was... it was quite... it was quite the event.

GM: Yeah. How did you get to safety after you were able to get out of the plane?

JS: Well, when they got me out of the window, I kind of was able to sit on the wing of the plane. And it was so great that we were at the sandbar because if we were in deeper water, we would have sunk. And I don't know that I would have made it. So they got me out on the wing, and I sat there for while just getting my equilibrium. And then they wanted to get me up. By that time, the Coast Guard had arrived, and this was just minutes they were there. And, of course, they're very close. And so then they helped me get off the wing and walk through the sand to their Zodiac.

GM: You mentioned you do take larger float planes quite often. Is this going to change anything about the way you travel?

JS: I don't... I don't know if I'll go by a small airplane to Hesquiaht. I think I'd prefer the ferry. [laughing] But certainly, you know, the flights from Nanaimo to Vancouver, or Vancouver to Victoria, are, you know... are safe. And I feel perfectly safe in them. You know, they're for 14 people. This one was for five, you know, I mean, I'd like to know at some point what happened. But, you know, that's not the critical thing for me. The critical thing for me is that I'm alive, my son's alive, everybody's alive. And we walked out of there safely. So that was, you know... that is just, you know, the greatest news that I could hope for, really.

GM: Hopefully, you'll learn more about what happened. And as you say, we're glad that you are OK, that your son is OK and that everyone else on board made it out safely.

JS: I know it's unreal looking at those pictures of the plane upside down, or I saw a picture of myself sitting on the wing, and it just feels like it's just not real, but I know it was. [laughing] And I lived through it. And, yeah, no, I can't thank enough the emergency services, you know, from the Coast Guard, to the ambulance, police, the doctors and nurses at the Tofino hospital, they were beyond amazing. They were so kind and generous and... and really checked me out thoroughly. So... so very happy that they were there to receive us and work on us quickly to make sure we were all OK.

GM: Well, Judith, we're wishing you and your son all the best. And thanks for speaking with us.

JS: Thank you. Bye.

CH: Judith Sayers was in a float plane crash in Tofino, B.C. yesterday. That's where we reached her. A spokesperson for Atleo River Air Services told the Victoria Times Colonist that the plane hit a large boat wake, went into the air prematurely, then tipped over on its nose.

[music: folk]

U.S. riots hearing

Guest: Mark Zaid

CH: Their stories are horrifying. Today, four police officers who were attacked at the U.S. Capitol by a pro-Trump mob spoke in Washington. They told a Congressional hearing that they were beaten. That they feared for their lives. That they were called traitors and taunted with racial insults. The hearings opened after months of political wrangling -- with some Republicans downplaying, or even denying, the violence that took place on January 6th. That prompted this response from D.C. police officer Michael Fanone.

SOUNDCLIP

MICHAEL FANONE: I feel like I went to hell and back to protect them and the people in this room. But too many are now telling me that hell doesn't exist or that hell actually wasn't that bad. The indifference shown to my colleagues is disgraceful!!! [pounds the table] My law enforcement career prepared me to cope with some of the aspects of this experience. Being an officer, you know, your life is at risk whenever you walk out the door, even if you don't expect otherwise law-abiding citizens to take up arms against you. But nothing, truly nothing, has prepared me to address those elected members of our government who continue to deny the events of that day. And in doing so, betray their oath of office.

CH: D.C. police officer Michael Fanone testifying in Washington today. Mark Zaid is a lawyer representing two of the four officers who spoke at the hearing. He's based in Washington, D.C.

GM: Mr. Zaid, we heard there one of the metro police officers describing what he went through that day as going to hell and back. Based on what you've heard from your clients, how would you describe what they went through that day?

MARK ZAID: I think that's a great description that Officer Fanone provided today at what was a very gripping and powerful testimony from all four of the officers that clearly showed that each of them are still scarred today, almost, what, seven months later because of what they went through? I mean, it was key to them, and I think anyone who watched, that this wasn't the average everyday circumstance; this was Americans taking arms up against Americans. And we haven't had something like that for 150 years since the U.S. Civil War.

GM: Yeah, one of your clients, Capitol Police Officer Aquilino Gonell, compared that day to a medieval battlefield, the hand-to-hand combat that he endured, that he thought that rioters were going to kill him. From what you've heard from him, what does he tell you about what he thought was going to happen that day?

MZ: You know, they thought and really expected that possibly they were going to die on that day. But their dedication and devotion was to protect the members of Congress, to make sure that none of them and their staff were injured in any way. And medieval battlefield really describes it. You know, as anyone who has been watching and listening to this story, there are many who are saying, oh, look, there weren't any weapons used. There were no... no guns were found. That's not entirely true. But in any event, what was used against them constituted weapons. I don't think anybody would say that what the Vikings were doing a thousand years ago was a walk in the park or tourists, even though they didn't have actual guns. You know, what they used on January 6th were weapons, weapons that could have deadly effect on anyone who fell victim to it. And at times, that even included the American flag, which is just unbelievable to think about.

GM: Your other client, Capitol Police Officer Harry Dunn, who is Black, has talked about being called the N-word repeatedly. What does he say about that experience and what went along with it?

MZ: It was very demoralizing. As Officer Dunn had testified, never once in uniform, which is 13 years, had anybody ever said the N-word to him. I'm sure, unfortunately, he's probably heard it at other times in his life, but not as a Capitol police officer. And to hear it stated that way, and for the others to hear that they were traitors and that they were betraying their oath, Sergeant Gonell had taken that oath five times, including as a member of the U.S. military fighting in Iraq. That they all took that oath, and yet, they were being called as traitors is absolutely despicable. And they stood for America that day, not the people who were trying to invade the U.S. Capitol.

GM: Yeah, I mean, I watched a clip where Officer Gonell talked about being more afraid to work on the Capitol than in his time in Iraq. And so that paints a picture. How difficult is it for these officers to recount this? Are they traumatized?

MZ: I think they're very much traumatized. Officer Fanone said he had been diagnosed with PTSD. Officer Dunn indicated that he continues to seek mental health counselling. They certainly, some of them have significant physical injuries. Sergeant Gonell is probably going to be on restricted duty for over a year because of the physical injuries that he suffered. But every day that they talk about it, they relive it. And it reopens those wounds so that they remain fresh. Now, they all feel, even the two who aren't my clients, it's obvious they feel this way, that it is important for them to talk about this and let everybody else know as to what happened, especially since we have members of Congress and others, including the former president of the United States, basically denying that this event ever happened, at least in the way that it did. Many officers of the Capitol Police Department have quit in the last seven months, outright quit because of what happened on January 6th.

GM: We've heard some of the officers refer to these rioters as terrorists. Do you and your clients feel that's an accurate characterization of the people who did this?

MZ: Absolutely. And Officer Hodges read one of the definitions in the U.S. code about terrorism. I've actually worked on terrorism cases representing victims of terrorism, so I'm very familiar with the terrorism statutes. And there's no doubt that what happened on January 6th was an act of domestic terrorism. And that's why so many hundreds of those who participated are being prosecuted. And again, it just, you know, beguiles everyone to think that members of Congress are actually supporting the individuals who participated in an insurrectionist event.

GM: I want to play a little bit from one of your clients, Officer Harry Dunn. He was asked by the head of the committee what they hoped the committee would accomplish? Here's what he had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

HARRY DUNN: I use an analogy to describe what I want as a hitman. If a hitman is hired and he kills somebody, the hitman goes to jail. But not only does the hitman go to jail, but the person who hired them does. There was an attack carried out on January 6th, and a hitman sent them. I want you to get to the bottom of that.

GM: Do you think Officer Dunn will get the answers he's looking for? Do you think that those who are responsible for this attack will be held accountable?

MZ: Well, I hope so. It is a difficult posture from a legal perspective, especially on a criminal level, as far as how will that work? It's a good analogy, especially for an investigative body, to at least explore who sent the individuals there? And, you know, it wasn't just the obviously individuals who we can all speak of, government officials and such, but who chartered the buses, who sent the text messages and social media messages about people grouping and being coordinated? I mean, there's a lot that could be investigated. And this panel today was really there to set the stage actually for what this committee will now engage in. They were the fact witnesses. They explained what happened. So I hope Officer Dunn and the rest of us in the United States get answers to those questions.

GM: Mark Zaid, thanks for taking the time to speak with us.

MZ: Thank you.

CH: Mark Zaid is a national security lawyer based in Washington, D.C. He represents the two Capitol Police officers who testified in Congress today.

[music: instrumental]

World's Brightest Flashlight

Guest: Chris Theile

CH: Chris Theile has a very fun job. But also a very dangerous one. He's a project manager with Hacksmith Industries, which is Internet-famous for making real-world versions of tech from comics, movies, and video games. And for moments like this one.

SOUNDCLIP

MAN: Owww! Oh, that's bright! That's bright! The light's too bright! [voice distorted and a building buzzing] So that actually worked really well.

CH: That's the sound of Mr. Theile and a colleague reacting to an early prototype of their now-officially-record-breaking flashlight. At 500-thousand lumens, it's the world's brightest flashlight. And he says making it has been a bright spot in his career. We reached Chris Thiele in Kitchener, Ontario.

GM: Chris, I'm sitting in a pretty dim and small radio studio. How bright would it be in here if I had your gigantic flashlight with me?

CHRIS THEILE: It'd be too bright, I think, is the answer.

GM: Too bright! [laughing] As we heard in that clip. Just blinding. I mean, can you even really see anything other than the light coming out of that flashlight?

CT: Yeah, not... not really. That's why we put on like four or five pairs of sunglasses, plus special spectrum-specific safety glasses as well.

GM: It wasn't just for show?

CT: No, it was very bright. You couldn't... you couldn't look at it. It was, like, worse than staring at the sun, which I also don't recommend doing.

GM: Yeah, the first question that comes to mind is why? Why did you want to do this? I mean, I know you and the folks at Hacksmith kind of do this stuff, but where did the idea to do the world's brightest flashlight come from?

CT: Honestly, we got some inspiration from other YouTube channels about a year ago now. And there were other YouTubers that did, you know, giant water guns and giant lasers and stuff like that. So we wanted to keep to the same type of theme and do something a little bit more technically-challenged because I do have a background in electronic design and specifically LED. So a giant flashlight seems like a very fitting project for me to take on.

GM: So shine a bit of a light on this process for us. How do you go about making the world's brightest flashlight?

CT: [chuckling] Well, first, you start with lots of research. So I followed some YouTube channels actually that did reviews for all of these different flashlights, and I found out what kind of LEDs they were using. And I eventually narrowed it down to this LED made by Cree called XHP70B. And all of these top-tier flashlights use this LEDs. And we ended up just buying a bunch and just had to figure out how to make it all work together was really what drove me to this level of madness, I suppose.

GM: [laughing] But essentially, multiplying technology that kind of already existed -- just times a million?

CT: Yeah, exactly. The world's most powerful flashlight at the time that you could purchase was called the Imalent MS 18, and that had 18 of these Cree LEDs in it. Our flashlight had 300. So, yeah.

GM: There are other big bright lights that exist out there. I'm thinking about spotlights on film set. Do you see any sort of practical use for your brightest... your world's brightest flashlight, or is this just to be able to say you did it?

CT: [chuckling] a little bit the latter, but I could see applications with search and rescue or something where you need a portable spotlight because, of course, the issue with many spotlights these days is they need large cooling systems associated with them. As well as their... their power sources aren't as portable as something like this is. But maybe in the... the light, the flashlight industry, will want something like this because it's always a race to the top of always more power, more hand-held, more lumen outputs, all of that stuff. So I'm sure one day maybe we'll miniaturize the technology enough to

get something like that, but in a smaller form factor, that isn't 88 pounds exact.

GM: Right. [chuckle] And you really put it to the test also. You know, at one point, you put it in front of something called a Crookes radiometer. What did that tell you?

CT: [laughing] So this is really freaking bright.

GM: Is that the technical term? [laughing]

CT: I guess, yeah, it is. Now, so this is essentially like, I guess, solar wind in a way where when the photons hit the device itself, it starts spinning in one direction, similar to a windmill, except for a light. And when we put it in front, you know, what... what we saw happen was totally unexpected with the [chuckle] explosion.

GM: It exploded?

CT: Yeah.

GM: Oh, man! [chuckle] I hope you were safe. I mean, yeah, how do you kind of plan for these scenarios where you don't know what's going to happen?

CT: [chuckle] You set up lots of cameras. That's what you do.

GM: [chuckle] Make sure you capture it. It all makes good YouTube content.

CT: Yeah.

GM: And... and you also strapped it to the roof of your car, giving new meaning to high beams. What was that like?

CT: Oh, that was probably one of my favourite scenes. [laughing] Oh, we did that... we just had so many times we're just driving down the road here, just trying to get all the footage we needed for the video team. And it was... it was a lot of fun, but it was also mind-boggling how much of that road because it's an industrial road, it was just lighting up all the buildings. You could see everything clearly like it was daytime out, essentially. It was weird.

GM: So this is your second Guinness World Record. Last year, we talked to your boss, James Hobson, about building a functioning lightsaber. That garnered a lot of attention and a lot of headlines. What's the reaction like when you do these projects like this? And does that kind of make it all worthwhile?

CT: [chuckle] For sure. It's interesting. I think last year we were doing a film outside for the Ghost Rider helmet, which was essentially a Ghost Rider from the comic books. And we put propane kind of piping around the helmet so that you could actually have a flaming skull helmet. And we were doing some filming, again, down this industrial street here. And I just remember James had it off, and there were some kids riding by on their bikes. And he turned it on, and just the look of these kids, like, staring at them all the way down the street was enough to just be like, yeah, we do... we do some really weird stuff here, that's for sure. [GM laughs] But it's fun. It's entertaining.

GM: Well, Chris, keep shining. We look forward to your next project. Thanks for chatting with us.

CT: Awesome. Thank you.

CH: Chris Theile is a project manager with Hacksmith Industries. He was in Kitchener, Ontario. And you can see the world's brightest flashlight in action on our website at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: electronic]

Part 2: Bermuda Triathlon Winner, Dumpster Diving Cockatoos

Bermuda Triathlon Winner

Guest: Joel Duffy

CH: The small island country of Bermuda is celebrating one woman today: Flora Duffy.

SOUNDCLIP

ANNOUNCER: History for Bermuda, as Fabulous Flora Duffy crosses the finish line. Gold! The first ever for her country.

CH: The sound of Flora Duffy winning the women's triathlon at the Tokyo Olympics last night -- completing the 1,500-meter swim, 40-kilometre bike ride and 10-kilometre run in 1 hour 55 minutes, and 36 seconds. She'll return home a national hero with the country's first-ever gold medal. Joel Duffy is Flora's brother. We reached him in Warwick, Bermuda.

GM: Joel, what was it like to watch that moment your sister made history?

JOEL DUFFY: Yeah, I mean, it was incredible. When she broke away on the run, you know, it was just kind of a countdown to that happening. But I guess it's never kind of done until she crosses the line. So, I mean, that was... I mean, it was amazing for everyone in Bermuda. But, you know, I know how much pressure Flora has on her shoulders from, you know, having the island on her back, but also her own type of, you know, pressure she puts on herself. So, yeah, I don't think she would have been satisfied with anything but winning. But yeah, it's just crazy. To see it happen was amazing.

GM: Yeah. Was there a moment you kind of knew she had it. I mean, it was a two-hour race, or I should say her time, 1:55. Was there a moment where you're like, she's got it?

JD: Yeah. Well, typically, the way Flora races is if she has a very good swim, she gets out of the... out of the water with, like in the top six, let's say, then what'll typically happens is they'll try and then extend that lead on the bikes. They'll work together. And Flora's one of the best swimmers. She's generally considered the best cyclist, and she's one of the best runners. So as soon as she got out of the water in that top group, then… then I really started to, you know, believe it was very possible that she was going to win. So, yeah, I mean, that swim was... was crucial, for sure.

GM: And what was the energy in the pub where you were watching with your parents and with the rest of the local crowd?

JD: Yeah, I mean, it was... it was buzzing. So the place where I watched it, they opened up the back room. And the... the Bermuda Triathlon Association had rented that out. So basically, all the triathletes in Bermuda were kind of there. And then, you know, a lot of my friends were there, and just people supporting Flora were there. It was buzzing. It was electric in there. It was amazing.

GM: And your parents, were there tears?

JD: Yeah, my... my mom cried a bit. My dad… my dad didn't. [GM laughs] But I think it was more relief more than anything for him. I mean, he was... he didn't even... he stayed at home for the swim. He didn't…. I think he was... he was very nervous, right? So he was... he knew how important that swim was. So he came in after the swim. But, yeah, it was... it was great. I mean, just seeing everyone's reaction and, you know, just being able to experience that with everyone was amazing.

GM: Yeah. And I mean, you talk about your dad's relief. This was a big achievement not just for Bermuda, but for your sister personally. She's... this was her last Olympics, her fourth time at the Games. She almost quit in 2008 when she didn't finish in... in Beijing. She had a crash in 2012, still finished eighth. So just personally as a family, having watched her go through what she went through to get here, can you just talk a little bit about what it meant for your family for her to be able to to achieve this in her last Olympics?

JD: Yeah, I think this really kind of... I mean, she's had an amazing career, right? So she's been multiple-time ITU world champion. She's been Xterra World Champion, like five or six times, which is like kind of an off-roading version of triathlon. So really, her winning the Olympics is... this was her kind of dream. So she kind of fulfilled that. But I mean, also in terms of legacy, when you talk about the greatest ever female triathlete, you... you know, it's hard not to include flora in that, at least in that conversation. I mean, no one... no one's done what she's done. And... and to be from such a small place to win a gold medal, first-ever for the country, I mean, it's... it's a real storybook kind of ending. And it's just crazy to think that, you know, my sister has done all that. I mean, just incredible, I think. I mean, we've been proud of her for a long time. But I think, like last night, that was just… just very, very special.

GM: Yeah. Was she feeling the pressure going into these Games?

JD: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Flora, she's under no illusions what... what, you know, not expect, but everyone knows what she's capable of. I mean, when she... the ITU race in Bermuda, a lot of people had never seen a triathlon before. And then... and then they see Flora absolutely blow away the field. So, you know, they kind of have that image of Flora in their mind. And, you know, the with the Olympics also being delayed a year, that just, you know, the pressure just builds up. So I know it's a huge relief for her personally. And Dan, for sure, her husband. I mean, they're... what an amazing team those two are. So, yeah, huge relief. Couldn't be happier.

GM: And Joel, I got to ask because it does sound like you're a little horse this afternoon. [laughing] Did you celebrate last night? Did the island just explode?

JD: Yes. Well, I mean, I know I exploded, that's for sure. [GM laughs] I was shouting at the TV and, yeah, I mean, yeah, my throat's not too bad. I don't feel too bad. I drank a lot last night. I'll be honest. [chuckling] But yeah, my voice is definitely a bit worse for wear, that's for sure.

GM: A well-deserved celebration. And obviously the family wasn't able to be in Tokyo because of the pandemic. So do you have celebrations planned for when she returns? I mean, is there going to be a parade in her honour at this point? [laughing]

JD: Yeah, I mean, when she won the Commonwealth Games, there was a kind of like a motorcade. You know, when you drive through the town on like a... in a car or open convertible, whatever. I imagine there'll be…. there'll be one of those, maybe. There'll be some type of celebration for sure. I'm not sure when Flora is next here. Probably... well, there's a race coming up in the... in the fall. She'll definitely be here for that. So, but yeah.

GM: Back to work for her. [laughing]

JD: Celebration. Exactly. Exactly.

GM: Well, congratulations to Flora, congratulations to your family and congratulations to Bermuda for its first-ever gold medal, thanks to your sister.

JD: Yeah, no worries. Thanks. Thanks a lot. Appreciate it.

GM: Thanks for chatting with us.

JD: All right.

CH: Joel Duffy is Flora Duffy's brother. We reached him in Warwick, Bermuda. And we have more on Ms. Duffy's gold medal race on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: poppy beat]

Warriors Walk for Healing Nations

CH: It's been one month since Jacqueline Shorty left Whitehorse to walk all the way to the former Kamloops Indian Residential School -- 15-hundred kilometres away. She is part of a group that calls itself the Warriors Walk for Healing Nations -- and they want to honour children who died at residential schools. Today they're resting in Prince George, which is about a six-hour drive -- or more than a one-hundred-hour walk -- to Kamloops. Today, Jacqueline Shorty spoke with the CBC.

SOUNDCLIP

JACQUELINE SHORTY: Many of the people that have started to walk are grandmothers, and so haven't had the training, you know, physically to be able to do the work that we're doing. However, we're overcoming those things, you know? So conditioning our bodies to be able to walk long distance, to be able to endure the heat, to be able to endure the rain. Sometimes, sleeping in very close quarters, not having good accommodations or rather from the elements. Spiritually, the challenge has been individually for each of us that we have encountered healing within ourselves. The whole call to come into walk is about how we have memories of our own childhood and lived those things. So as survivors and as walkers, it's tremendous healing, you know? It's as though we've encountered a tornado and the tornado is an emotional and spiritual one that turns us inside out so that we can heal to be of help to others.

JASON PETERS: During your walk, have you felt a spiritual connection to some of those children who have gone on?

JS: Yes, we definitely have. You know, not just the spiritual connection to our own ancestors. Everyone in our group has encountered... have encountered things, you know? We've encountered spirits along the way, you know? They sometimes will show themselves to us, and sometimes they won't. When we were leaving the Lower Post Residential School and on our way to Good Hope Lake like we were kept on the side of the road, and we were in a trailer. And in the middle of the night, both the doors opened. There was nobody there. [chuckle] And they opened. But whatever it was, you know, opened both the doors. And so, it could only be spirit.

CH: That was Jacqueline Shorty speaking with the CBC's Jason Peters in Prince George, B.C. today. The Warriors Walk for Healing Nations will continue on toward Kamloops tomorrow. They plan to arrive at the former residential school in two weeks.

[music: tense instrumental]

Dumpster diving cockatoos

Guest: Richard Major

CH: People in Sydney, Australia, are used to seeing beautiful cockatoos around town. But they weren't used to seeing beautiful cockatoos rooting around in their garbage cans. Partly because their garbage cans have lids. Researchers first noticed the behaviour in the city's southern suburbs. But then, oddly, they noticed it was spreading. And now, a joint study by Australian and European scientists has shed light on the reason why. Richard Major is one of the researchers on the study -- which was published in the journal Science. We reached him in Coalcliff, Australia.

GM: Richard, this research idea came about because of an observation that you made a few years ago when you saw a cockatoo near your house. Tell us a bit about that moment.

RICHARD MAJOR: Well, I was driving to the railway station on my way to work, and I saw... I had for a long time seen cockatoos feeding at rubbish bins. And I assumed that they were feeding at open bins or bins that were partly open and had blown open in the wind. But as I was driving past one day, I was sure I just saw this bird flip the lid. And it wasn’t until a while later that I thought, well, I've really got to get that a record of this. And so I was looking out to catch it on video. And sure enough, another day, similarly driving to the station, I saw a bird flipping a lid and feeding on the rubbish. So I stopped the car and parked it on the other side of the road, got out, closed the rubbish bin lid. And, you know, the bird flew up to the telegraph wire. No sooner as I popped back in my car, it just flew back down the lid. And just as easily as anything, lifted it up, walked along and flipped it over the back again. So I thought, wow, [chuckling] this is an amazing, amazing behaviour, how easily it did it. And just at that time, I was doing some collaborative work with a researcher from Oxford University, Lucy Aplin, who looks at social learning in birds. So I sent her the video. She was pretty impressed with it. And a while later, she had a postdoc, Barbara Klump, at the Max Planck Institute, who then started working full-time on this project.

GM: Wow! So I got to tell you, first of all, that the idea of seeing a cockatoo on my driveway is a surprising one for me. We're recording in Toronto, and the only animals we have to worry about digging through our garbage bins are raccoons. But I understand they're pretty... cockatoos are pretty common in Australia. Can you just describe for our listeners what those birds look like and what they're like?

RM: Yes, like cockatoos are sulphur-crested cockatoos, a large, all-white parrot. They weigh about half as much as a chicken does. So they’re a large bird. And they've got a bright yellow sulphur-coloured crest. And that crest, they can raise or lower depending on how excited they are. So they're really large, they're loud, they're quite flamboyant, but they're also really smart, and they're persistent, and they've adapted brilliantly to living with humans. So in the last few decades, they've become more and more common in... in cities such as Sydney.

GM: And so how did you start to figure out how they learned this trick?

RM: Right. So I mentioned Barbara Klump, the researcher from the Max Planck Institute. She did elaborate work with videos. So on bin day, we... and she in particular, but our research team and volunteers would drive around the suburbs waiting for and watching cockatoos come down to rubbish bins and then would video the sequence. So that was one part. There's really three parts of it. So that was the first part was to work out what the behaviour was. And Barbara quantified this behaviour down into five different steps of opening a bin lid. The other thing we did was do a community survey of residents across Sydney, asking people where they had and hadn't seen this behaviour. And then, the third thing we did was individually mark some cockatoos with paint to see which birds were doing it. The community survey showed that at the start of our study in 2018, this behaviour had only been seen in three suburbs in the south of Sydney. But by the end of our study in 2019, it had spread across 44 suburbs. So that was indicative that the birds were learning something. It wasn't something that was just randomly popping up all over the place.

GM: Hmm. And as you watched, were they all opening the bins the same way or did they have different techniques?

RM: There were subtle differences in how they would open the bin. Some birds would pry it open. Some birds would just do a straight clean lift. Some would hold it with their foot. Others would hold it with their beak. So by looking at the subtle differences in the behaviour, we were able to find out that what we call them subcultures, that these little differences in subculture occurred between populations. And these bin openings in each subculture appeared to be learned by cockatoos watching each other.

GM: And so what does all of this research kind of tell us? [chuckle] I mean, it's all very interesting, but I'm sure that there's more to it in the sense of understanding birds, or cockatoos at least, in their patterns of behaviour. And what you're talking about is how different clusters or groups kind of work together in similar ways?

RM: Yes, I guess there's two pieces that are significant in this research. We have documented the emergence of an animal culture, and this is something that is very hard, and it's been very rarely seen. So we're familiar with it in chimpanzees and whales. But actually, to... to observe a culture emerge in animals is something that has been very rarely done. And it's very hard to do because you need to be there right at the stage when they... the behaviour first emerges to see how it spreads. And then that stage behaviour is so rare that we're unlikely to see it. And so, in this case, we were very fortunate we were in the right place at the right time. But moreover, we were in an environment, an urban environment, where there were lots of people who could observe. So we were able to harness this sort of people power of citizen science to document the spread of the behaviour. So often, we think of animal behaviour in the wild. We were looking at it still in the wild but in an urban area, very amenable to looking at the spread.

GM: Sounds like you've got a clever animal on your hands. Let’s see if humans will be able to outsmart them. Thanks for speaking with us, Richard.

RM: My pleasure.

CH: Richard Major is one of the researchers who worked on a study of cockatoos' behaviour. He's in Coalcliff, Australia. And the study is published in the journal Science.

[music: bright instrumental]

FOA: Billy The Kid Gun

CH: Some folks say he was a varmint who was less than a Western diamondback rattlesnake. But some folk'll tell you Billy The Kid was a hero of the Wild West, who was gunned down unfair-like by a yellow-bellied scallywag name of Pat Garrett. Well, in one month's time, at Bone-Ham's auction house, some fancy... pardon? Oh. Yeah. Yeah, okay. I'm supposed to make sure you know it's actually Bonhams auction house, and I'm also supposed to stop talking like that. That’s fine. Well, on August 27th, Bonhams will auction off the gun Pat Garrett used to kill Billy The Kid in July of 1881. It's expected to fetch at least two million dollars American. About the only thing everyone agrees on about that shooting is that this is definitely the gun that Mr. Garrett used. Beyond that, when it comes to Mr. The Kid, no one agrees on anything. Was he a villain, a hero, or a patsy? Well, Bill Robins believed that last one. In 2003, the governor of New Mexico announced a new investigation into whether the Wild West outlaw should be pardoned. It would involve exhuming The Kid's mother. And Mr. Robins would represent The Kid in court. He spoke to our former host, Mary Lou Finlay, in November of 2003.

MARY LOU FINLAY: Mr. Robbins, why does a dead outlaw need a lawyer today?

BILL ROBBINS: Well, you know, they're... as you probably know, there's been an ongoing investigation concerning whether Billy The Kid is, in fact, buried in Fort Sumner, New Mexico. And the sheriffs in Lincoln County have filed a petition to exhume the body of Catherine Antrim, who's his mother, who was buried at Silver City. And so I think the governor feels that because, you know, Billy The kid’s at issue, and there were lawyers representing the side of the sheriffs if you will, and by extension, Pat Garrett, that it's only appropriate that Billy The Kid also have counsel.

MLF: So what will you be arguing with regard to the exhumation?

BR: Well, in the first instance, I'm going to be arguing in favour of the exhumation because I believe that it's only appropriate that we get to the truth of this issue. But also, in addition, my goal is for the investigation to be expanded and for the whole story of Billy The Kid to be really looked at. And my belief is, once that story is looked at, I think the governor should consider a pardon for Billy The Kid, a posthumous pardon. And that's what I'm going to be advocating.

MLF: The whole point about exhuming Catherine Antrim is that to get some DNA to see whether or not another guy is... might be Billy The Kid, somebody from --

BR: Well, it's two-part. One is to get DNA from Catherine Antrim and then to compare it with the remains that are buried at Fort Sumner. And if there's a DNA match there, then that would establish that Billy The Kid is, in fact, buried at Fort Sumner. If there's not, then what they would do is they would the next move would be to go to Hamilton, Texas, where this man named Brushy Bill, who claimed to be Billy The Kid and lived to a ripe old age, is buried. And we could do a comparison with his remains, and either rule him in or rule him out, as you know, as related to Catherine Antrim through, you know, modern DNA testing. And it would tell us whether he was or was not factually The Kid.

MLF: Are you getting well paid for this work?

BR: You know, I'm doing it for free. [laughing] So the answer is no. For some reason, I can't seem to get a retainer from my client. [both laughing]

CH: From our archives, Mary Lou Finlay speaking with New Mexico lawyer Bill Robins in 2003. Despite Mr. Robins' efforts, Billy The Kid was never pardoned.

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July 27, 2021 Episode Transcript

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