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The AIH Transcript For July 22, 2021

[hosts]Susan Bonner, Chris Howden[/hosts]

SUSAN BONNER: Hi, I'm Susan Bonner, sitting in for Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is “As It Happens”.

[music: theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

SB: Uncontrollable surges. An infection prevention director at a Florida hospital says the growth of COVID infections is straining the ability to care for patients, and people's refusal to get the vaccine is straining his patience.

CH: Never again. Many Norwegians made that vow ten years ago after a right-wing extremist massacred dozens of young people on Utoya Island. Now, one of the survivors is asking her fellow citizens: "What are you doing to keep that promise?"

SB: A royal pain. Support for constitutional change in Jamaica is growing — as politicians and scholars back demands to break away from the Queen, and form a republic.

CH: Southern discomfort. Canada's ready to open border crossings to fully vaccinated Americans — but the Biden administration says it's too risky to welcome Canadians in return.

SB: Happy Feet. A Newfoundland and Labrador retirement home celebrates after the government officially allows residents to hold dances again.

CH: And... making fuels of ourselves. A new Swedish study suggests single men buy more stuff that creates greenhouse gases than single women do, largely because the men are always filling their gas tanks.

CH: “As It Happens”, the Thursday edition. Radio, that's all killer, no fill’er up.

[music: theme]

Part 1: Florida COVID Surge, Open U.S. Border, Jamaica commonwealth breakaway

Florida COVID Surge

Guest: Chad Neilsen

CH: If you were judging strictly by people's behaviour, you'd assume the COVID-19 pandemic in Florida was pretty much over. Masks are a rare sight. Social distancing is basically non-existent. Restaurants and nightclubs are full. But so are hospitals. And they're getting fuller every day. The state is averaging about 8,000 new COVID cases per day -- and accounts for 20 per cent of all new infections across the U.S. In some hospitals in Florida, COVID admissions have now surpassed previous all-time highs. Chad Neilsen's is among them. Mr. Neilsen is the director of infection prevention at UF Health Jacksonville. That's where we reached him.

SB: Mr. Neilsen, can you describe the situation in your hospital in Jacksonville today? What are you facing?

CHAD NEILSEN: We're facing a really sudden surge of COVID-19-positive patients. Over the last 10 days or so, we've doubled our number of COVID-19 sick admitted patients into our hospital system. We did steel ourselves against a potential second surge, but we weren't prepared for such a rapid rate of admitted patients rolling into our hospital. And so right now, we're really experiencing a staff shortage that we haven't faced before.

SB: What can you tell us about the people who are getting sick?

CN: Largely, the people who are getting sick and are being admitted to our hospital are truly unvaccinated. In fact, 90 per cent of our current COVID-19 admitted patients are unvaccinated patients, and they're also younger. The age of our average COVID-19 patient has been reduced by almost 10 years here during this July surge. Furthermore, the patients who are dying of COVID in our hospital since June are all unvaccinated. Here in Florida, roughly 59 per cent of the state that is eligible to be vaccinated is vaccinated. Here in Jacksonville, Florida, it's even less. We have less than half of our population who are eligible, vaccinated. So really, what we're seeing is a terrible surge in unvaccinated patients coming into our hospital system right now.

SB: So 90 per cent of the patients that you're admitting with COVID are unvaccinated. What are they telling you about those decisions, the decision not to get vaccinated?

CN: Well, we've recently been trying to figure that out. And so, actually, in the last several days, we've been asking some of our recovering patients, are you vaccinated? And, of course, they say no. And we say, well, what were the reasons? They espouse the same reasons that the rest of the nation is, whether it's political, conspiracy theories, or just misinformation, or just what they call a lack of data. And we ask them, are you regretful? And 100 per cent of these patients that we have said, yes, I regret not getting that vaccine, and as soon as I get out, that's where I'm going. But unfortunately for some of these patients, it's going to be too late.

SB: What kind of toll is this taking on you and your colleagues in the hospital?

CN: Well, I can tell you that when our numbers started to explode here in the last couple of weeks, we got a dreadful feeling of here we go again, deja vu. It's just really morale-sapping. And our staff are getting tired, again. They're getting weary. And some of them are even getting frustrated that they're working to take care of people who are making a cognisant decision not to get vaccinated for frivolous or otherwise misinformed reasons.

SB: What about the staff itself? How many in the hospital are vaccinated themselves?

CN: Yeah, so our vaccine right here at the hospital matches that of most other U.S. hospitals that don't mandate it. And we're roughly 50 per cent of our overall staff are vaccinated.

SB: Fifty per cent?! Just half the hospital staff is vaccinated?

CN: That's right. Only about half of our hospital staff is vaccinated. And the reasons are largely the same. They consume the same media. They consume the same social media. And unfortunately, watching some of these patients succumb to the disease is not strong enough of a signal to them to get vaccinated. So as a hospital system, we're doubling our... redoubling our efforts to educate and to try and get our staff vaccinated.

SB: I'm trying to understand, you say that people within the hospital are frustrated at seeing a surge in patients coming in, and yet it's still not enough to convince the other half of the staff to get a vaccination themselves?

CN: Yeah, that's right. And our vaccinated staff members who are the most frustrated, that frustration is not just towards the general community. It's also, in some cases, towards some of their colleagues. So it's a very interesting dynamic to watch. But it's also very sad because we are losing staff members to COVID-19 isolation as well. And that further impacts our ability to... to staff our hospital appropriately.

SB: What is left for you to do to try and convince people to get the vaccines?

CN: Well, we've kicked around a lot of ideas. And to be clear, our hospital has maintained our ability to vaccinate our employees. We have always had times and days available to do this work. So now, we're trying to redouble our efforts in educating. But there's certainly a portion of people that are just not going to get it for reasons X, Y, Z. And we don't want to waste effort on those folks. We just hope that they get vaccinated eventually.

SB: Would the hospital mandate vaccines for staff?

CN: It's certainly under consideration right now. There's this dynamic here in the United States of the

FDA approval versus sort of a provisional approval, which is what the drugs are currently under. Once that full FDA approval is granted, hopefully, this fall, I think you'll see a majority of hospitals start to mandate the vaccine as a condition of employment. But unfortunately, here in the United States and in certain states like Florida, there's a lot of different pressures that go along with mandating vaccines, whether that's legal pressures or political pressures. We're trying to navigate those waters smartly until the approval process is finalized.

SB: The governor of Florida, Ron DeSantis, is saying there will not be another lockdown. He is against vaccine passports. He opposes mandating mask-wearing. And he also says cases will begin to drop in August likely. Is there any reasons to believe that's true?

CN: I certainly don't see any reasons to think that this is what is being called seasonal. When we look at infectious disease outbreaks and pandemics, what we tend to find is it's not anything inherent about the season or time of year. It's social behaviour that drives these infections. And so, right now, with the Delta variant circulating in Florida, with a stagnating vaccination rate and with no social mitigation strategies in place like masking or social distancing, there's no indication that this is going to stop in August just because the month or because the time of the year. This is social and behavioural driven regardless of season.

SB: Well, Mr. Neilsen, we wish you luck trying to navigate this situation.

CN: Yeah. Thank you very much.

SB: Bye-bye.

CN: Bye.

CH: Chad Neilsen is the director of infection prevention at UF Health Jacksonville. We reached him in Jacksonville, Florida.

[music: acoustic guitar]

Open U.S. Border

Guest: Brian Higgins

CH: Brian Higgins is ready to welcome Canadians, but his President says it's too much of a risk. Mr. Higgins is a Democratic U.S. Congressman from western New York. He was happy when Prime Minister Trudeau announced the re-opening of border crossings to fully-vaccinated Americans. But yesterday, the White House said that it wasn't ready to do the same for Canadians, even those who've been double-dosed. That has Representative Higgins demanding an explanation from U.S. President Joe Biden. We reached Congressman Brian Higgins in Washington DC.

SB: Congressman Higgins, why are you so keen to open up the borders to Canadians?

BRIAN HIGGINS: Because both Americans and Canadians have been told for six months to follow the science, to follow the facts, to follow the data. And the fact of the matter is, the science is that if you are fully vaccinated, you have very strong immunity against the disease, against giving it or getting it. And that has to account for something. So the Canadian federal government made a decision to open the Canadian border to Americans starting on August 9th. And I think the United States has an obligation to its people and theirs to reciprocate.

SB: What are you hearing from your constituents as they face another summer without any Canadian visitors?

BH: Well, it hurts both sides of the border. I represent Buffalo and western New York, the city of Niagara Falls, New York. And our economy is deeply interdependent on the Canadian economy, specifically, the province of Ontario, the fastest growing province in all of Canada, representing about almost 40 per cent of the entire Canadian population. So it hurts our economy. It hurts our life quality. And there's a mental health issue as well as it relates to people who love each other, who have been separated for 16 months. And again, all of us have been admonished to follow the science. And the science says that if you are fully vaccinated, you, in fact, have strong immunity against both giving COVID or getting COVID, even when you take into account the Delta variant,

SB: Because it's the Delta variants that the White House cites as the increased risk. And it's increased caution if you will. Why --

BH: Well, the Pfizer vaccine in studies have shown that the Pfizer vaccine is highly effective in giving you immunity against the Delta variant, 88 per cent relative to the disease, 96 per cent relative to hospitalization. Those are very, very high rates on the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. U.S., United States, it is very explicit. It is clear and unequivocal. And it says as it relates to COVID guidance that if you are fully vaccinated, you can resume pre-pandemic activity without wearing a facemask, without social distancing, without quarantine. So I'm just following the science. Think about this for a moment. If you're in Canada and you fly into Buffalo, that's permitted. If you're in Canada and you want to fly into Buffalo, you can't. How does that make sense?

SB: You mean you want to drive into Buffalo, you can fly in, but you can't drive?

BH: That's right. Now, you know, are you more contagious? Are you sicker if you're in a car versus an airplane? No. I mean, that's why I think the frustration has been that too many of these decisions are arbitrary. For example, you know, National Hockey League hockey players were given an exemption owing not to science but to the NHL playoffs schedule. That frustrates people who have not been able to visit their cottages, who have not been able to become reunited with people they love. And... and if we have been admonished for the past 16 months and both sides of the border to follow the science and we're following the science, it points to one conclusion, open the border.

SB: And yet we heard from Jen Psaki, the presidential spokesperson, that it is the science advice that the White House is receiving from officials that is guiding their decision on the border.

BH: Well, she is not reading what the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is saying. And if you look on the website today, it is very explicit, and it says if you are fully vaccinated, you can return to pre-pandemic activity. That's not my interpretation. That is their statement as it relates to giving people that are seeking good scientific advice as to how to proceed. And therefore, they should read their own CDC website because what the press secretary is saying and what the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention are saying are two different things,

SB: If you don't buy that answer, why do you believe they are hesitating?

BH: I don't know. I mean, look, each country, we have two sovereign nations here that are connected by a common border. And, you know, everybody... each side has their own politics. You know, you've got the Liberal/Conservative dynamic of Canadian federal politics going on. In the United States, you've got two borders. You've got the northern border, and you have the southern border, both of which, you know, offer both, you know, challenges and opportunities. But they are different. There is some speculation that perhaps the administration doesn't want to open the northern border without also opening, concurrently opening, the southern border.

SB: So you're saying their... their decisions are... are being made purely on political reasons?

BH: I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying that's the speculation. But I do think... I do think that if the United States makes a decision not to open its border to Canadians, they have an obligation to state why. And when you have complete radio silence, that does not serve the purpose or the benefit of citizens on either side of the border. If there is a good, compelling reason based on the science to continue to restrict, you know, Canadians from coming into the United States, you need to say that. You need to say why? What's the vision? What's the plan? We were promised on January 22nd by the Biden administration that they would develop a plan. The president directed three cabinet secretaries to develop a plan as it relates to the U.S.-Canadian border on January 22nd to develop a plan within 15 days. We have had nothing, and that's unacceptable. And this administration has an obligation to communicate clearly to the American people when the border is going to open. And if it can’t open, why it can't open.

SB: Congressman Higgins, thank you so much for your time.

BH: Thanks for having me.

CH: Brian Higgins is the United States Congressman for New York's 26th district. We reached him in Washington DC. And for more on this story, go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: ambient]

Jamaica commonwealth breakaway

Guest: Carolyn Cooper

CH: There are growing calls in Jamaica to have Queen Elizabeth removed as the head of state. Politicians, local activists, and scholars say the royal breakup is needed for Jamaica to truly heal from its colonial wounds. And they come as the country's ruling party prepares to send the Queen a petition demanding reparations over Britain's historic role in the slave trade. Carolyn Cooper is a Jamaican scholar in literary and cultural studies and a professor emeritus at the University of the West Indies. We reached her in Kingston, Jamaica.

SB: Professor Cooper, the issue of removing the Queen as head of state has come up before in Jamaica. Why is it gaining traction now?

CAROLYN COOPER: It's one of those issues that keeps on recurring. And politicians make investments in it, and then they don't follow through with what they say they plan to do. Almost a decade ago, when Jamaica was approaching the 50th anniversary of independence, there was a lot of talk about the issue, but nothing has been done. And at that time, the prime minister, Portia Simpson-Miller, said time was up for the Queen, and they were going to move ahead. Nothing has been done. Later on, the Jamaica Labour Party said the same thing. Most recently, in 2016, as part of their campaign manifesto, nothing happened. So it's just talk. And I guess eventually, somebody is going to have the courage to say, let's do what needs to be done, which means that it has to have bipartisan support in government, in the parliament. And it also has to go to a referendum.

SB: This would mean then leaving the commonwealth?

CC: Not necessarily. Trinidad and Tobago, for example, is a republic, and they're still a member of the Commonwealth. So getting rid of the Queen as head of state doesn't necessarily mean that you have to leave the Commonwealth.

SB: How present is colonial history in the lives of Jamaicans today?

CC: I think that the legacy of colonialism is evident, for example, in attitudes to language. That's one of my areas of particular concern because I write a newspaper column for The Gleaner. And once a month, I write in Jamaica. And the hostile comments that come up suggest that there's a whole set of people who are still caught in the grip of Anglophilia. English is the sole language of intellectual discourse. Writing an opinion piece in the column, in the newspaper, I mean, they just get so upset at the thought of acknowledging Jamaican as a language, the language of the Jamaican nation. So I use that attitude to language as a metaphor for the attitude to Englishness.

SB: You've described some of the effects of the colonial legacy as mental slavery. Can you explain what that means?

CC: Yes, I am happy to do so. I hope you know the name Marcus Garvey. He was that great Jamaican Pan-Africanist, and he was speaking in Canada in 1937. He was addressing a meeting of the UNIA there. And this is a quote from him. He said We are going to emancipate ourselves from mental slavery because while others might free the body, none but ourselves can free the mind. Mind is your only ruler sovereign. The man who is not able to develop and use his mind is bound to be the slave of the other man who uses his mind. So Marcus Garvey was using mental slavery there as a metaphor for the whole colonial experience.

SB: And how do you connect that to having the Queen as your head of state?

CC: Ah, well, [chuckle] it's mental slavery to believe that the Queen of England is entitled to be the head of state of Jamaica. It's back to all of those people who reject Jamaican identity and want to claim Englishness. There was a poll conducted in 2011 which found that 60 per cent of 1,000 people interviewed backed the view that Jamaica would have been better off if it had remained a British colony. Can you imagine, 60 per cent, they feel that Jamaica would have been economically more advanced if we were still a colony. But, you know, there is more to identity than economic wealth.

SB: Well, right now, politically, the government in Jamaica is asking for slavery reparations. The opposition party wants this break with the monarchy. How much agreement on this issue is there amongst regular people in Jamaica? Well, I haven't done any polls, but I don't think that this is a big issue for many people on the ground because really and truly, the Queen is very distant. But I don't think most Jamaicans see the monarchy as a big issue that affects the everyday struggles for survival.

SB: But they'll have to pay attention if this process goes ahead because isn't part of the legal process, as you mentioned, a referendum?

CC: Yes, but you see before the referendum, we'lll have to have public Education so people can see what might be the benefits as opposed to the drawbacks of, you know, having the Queen continue as our head of state. But as I say, on the ground now, I don't think it matters much to ordinary people who are struggling to survive.

SB: What do you think would happen in a referendum?

CC: I am hoping that the majority of Jamaicans would say, yeah, man, time for the Queen to go. But if that poll is anything to go by, I don't know if things have changed if 60 per cent of people [chuckle] believe that Jamaica will be better off as a colony.

SB: Barbados is going to make the move to a full republic later this year. How hopeful are you that Jamaica will follow suit sometime soon?

CC: Well, let's just talk briefly about Barbados. Barbados calls itself little England. Barbados had unbroken British rule. And my position is if Barbados can decide to abandon the monarchy, what about Jamaica? We have so much big chat. And yet, when it comes right down to it, some of our politicians are still enthralled by the monarchy. Can you imagine that the prime minister of Jamaica, Andrew Holness, recently accepted to be Privy Councillor. In this day and age, it is outrageous. And the very first line of the oath of the Privy Council is to, you know, to to be a servant of the Queen. Now, how can you, as prime minister, agree to be a servant of the Queen? And at the same time, you're allegedly supporting the move to... for the country to abandon the Queen as a monarch? It's ludicrous.

SB: Professor Cooper, it's been good to talk to you today. Thank you for your time.

CC: An absolute pleasure.

SB: Goodbye.

CC: Bye.

CH: Carolyn Cooper is a Jamaican scholar in literary and cultural studies and a professor emeritus at the University of the West Indies. We reached her in Kingston, Jamaica.

[music: sombre instrumental]

Men V.S. Women Spending

CH: Look, some of you aren't going to want to hear this. But according to a new study, the way men spend money results in more carbon emissions than the way women spend money. I know, I know. All you guys who are currently eating a ribeye steak while driving your SUV to the gas station are so mad right now that you almost want to throw your other ribeye steak out the window. But believe it or not, your eating and driving habits are the problem. This new Swedish study, published in the Journal of Industrial Ecology, suggests that you spend too much time… pardon me… too much on fuel for the vehicles you drive around in, and too much on meat for the bodies you walk around in. The study found that single men and single women spend about the same amount of money, overall. But that the stuff single men bought created 16 per cent more greenhouse gases than the stuff single women bought. Especially gas and diesel fuel. Now, granted, this is a Swedish study of single Swedish people. So maybe the men are driving Volvos while eating meatballs from IKEA. But it's fair to assume similar patterns exist here. So we should adjust our expenditures accordingly. Maybe this new knowledge will drive us to drive less -- and get us pumped to stop pumping quite so much.

[music: piano]

Part 2: Encore: Hot Docs: Generation Utoya

Encore: Hot Docs: Generation Utoya

CH: Ten years ago today, the unthinkable happened in Norway -- a massacre on a scale the country had never seen before. First, a car bomb went off near the prime minister's office in Oslo, killing several people. That evening we spoke to Maya Seim, who was working not far from the explosion site:

SOUNDCLIP

MAYA SEIM: When the news hit us, and we got more information, of course, it feels like Oslo lost its innocence today. Yeah. People are quite shook up, just trying to get hold of loved ones and confused and just watching the news. This is a small country, you know, and a small city. And I didn't expect this at all. And I don't think that many people did. I know some may be a bit scared that it isn't over.

CH: It wasn't over. Reports began to emerge of another attack on a Labour Party youth camp at Utoya Island. That's when we reached Hallvard Sandberg, a reporter with Norway's public broadcaster:

SOUNDCLIP

HALLVARD SANDBERG: The details are quite horrific. There was an information meeting about the attack in Oslo. They had just got the information that the bomb went off in the government quarters in Oslo. And the youths, they were gathering around to hear more information about it. A person in a police uniform got up and said, hello. Listen to me. And then he started shooting them. I've seen helicopter images now from youths trying to swim away from this island. And there's reports about dead bodies lying in the water. And there is at least eight severely wounded youths being flown into the hospital now. And we don't know the number of people who have been killed.

[/sc]

CH: It soon became clear that the person responsible for both attacks was a right-wing extremist, Anders Breivik. He killed sixty-nine people on that island. Many others were badly injured. Afterwards, some of the young people refused to be silent about what had happened to them. Four women who survived the massacre are part of a documentary about the fallout from the attack called "Generation Utoya." It aired at the Hot Docs film festival.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Aslaug and Kamzy, welcome to "As It Happens".

ASLAUG HOLM: Thank you so much.

KAMZY GUNARATNAM: Thank you.

CO: Aslaug, I want to begin with you as the filmmaker. The whole world was shaken by what we heard that day. And we hear so often also that that day in July, almost 10 years ago, was... was a defining moment for Norway. You call this documentary "Generation Utoya" after the name of the island. What does that mean?

AH: It means that we are making a story about youths continuing to fight for the same values for which they were attacked. It's about young people continuing fighting for politics, even if they were threatened to death. And also, saw several of their friends being killed that day. So as a filmmaker, I'm really inspired to make a story about these young women that have the courage to move on, carrying this heavy luggage. And at the same time, they are fighting for these values also today.

CO: And Kamzy, you were one of those people on the island, and you are one of the four women featured in Aslaug's documentary. Do you see yourself as part of a "Generation Utoya"?

KG: Well, I definitely understand the term. And maybe both me and Aslaug understand the term also in a wider perspective, you know? The one thing is those of us who survived the island attack, and we're still engaging ourself in politics, and still doing the stuff that a certain person wanted to kill us for, right? But I hope in the future that this movie and this term, maybe it can appeal to all the generation growing up, you know? And want to prevent something like this from happening again.

CO: I want to ask you, Kamzy, to stay with you for a moment about the... before we get into the story of the day and what it… what it wrought. I just want to know what that... being part of the youth movement of Norway's Labour Party, because that was the group, that was the young people who were meeting on the island. It looks absolutely idyllic, the pictures that Oslo has shown us of that beautiful place. I want to understand a bit more about what it meant to you personally, because I know your family came from Sri Lanka to Norway. You speak of being kind of a shy child. Getting involved in politics really changed you. Just tell us a bit about what it meant to you to be on the island that day, to be a part of this youth movement. How did it affect you?

KG: Well, when I started to engage in politics, my mom and dad wasn't that excited about it because what they associate with politics in Sri Lanka was not positive. So when I started to engage, when I was 18 years old, they were not undivided [chuckle] in their happiness and excitement about it. So they were like, OK, be careful, don't stick your head out, just blend in, you know? [chuckling] And then, I tried to prove to them that politics in Norway is different. It's safe. You don't get killed to engage. You don't get killed to have an opinion in this country. You can actually... you can engage and you can have aggressive discussions, but still go home as friends, you know? But then this happened. And how ironic, you know, [chuckle] that I spent my years in AUF, the Labour Youth, to explain to my parents that this is something safe to do. And then he makes me swim through the water like my mom had to do when she tried to come to Norway. And it was just so surreal to compare those things that we actually have to do the same thing that we run away from in Sri Lanka. So personally, it just, you know, my whole world got shaken, even though I know I have a better life in Norway, and I'm so happy that we live here. I can't just take it all for granted. The society needs to, you know, we still need to develop, and still continue to create the common ground for all people

CO: I want to play another clip of our coverage at the time. This is [one of the campers], speaking on our show about that day. And this is from 10 years ago.

SOUNDCLIP

CAMPER: A lot of people just ran into the room, and screaming, saying there's someone shooting outside. I didn't believe it at first, but I got a feeling that it was true, so I ran around looking for my sister and brother.

CO: They were also on the island, were they?

CAMPER: Yes. And then I heard the shooter come closer. So I ran into a toilet, and was there with three other people.

CO: And did…. how close do you think that you came? And was was Mr. Breivik anywhere near where you were hiding?

CAMPER: When I got out of the toilet, there was a guy dead in front of the toilet door.

CO And your sister and your brother?

CAMPER: My little sister, she swam over to the land side. And my big brother, he was running around the island trying to look for us.

CO: But they were... they survived as well as you did?

CO: Yes, they did.

CO: That was [a camper] talking about that day. And, Kamzy, for you as well, swimming. You just mentioned that. That that was how you escaped.

KG: Yeah, it was that or being shot. So I had to just decide how I wanted to survive, or actually, how I wanted to die because I never swam that much in my life. And to swim, like from that point, it was six hundred metres over to the land side. And it's... it was impossible for me to imagine that I could make it. I thought I decided I'd have to die because I didn't want to get shot. So I felt the water was easier.

CO: When you got to the edge of the water, others decided not to. They thought it was... how did they... why did they hesitate and you didn't?

KG: You know, you... you react with flee, fight, or freeze. I think a lot of people froze, you know, like, [chuckle] is this really happening in Norway. Is this really happening? The only way I, you know, started to believe that something was happening, it was because some of the people who came running from the other side of the island saw dead bodies. Otherwise, I don't know what I would have done. But I think a lot of people just froze. They didn't know what to do. They panicked. They got stuck in different places. And perhaps some people just really couldn't believe this was happening. They need to see the person shooting. And, you know, they are not with us today. I don't know what to say because none of the decisions anyone made was wrong. But I think this is not what you expect at a summer camp.

CO: This is not what anybody expects at summer camp, that's for sure. Aslaug, I want to ask you about… you interviewed others and their friends as well, not just these four women, but people associated with them and about what it was to survive this attack and to lose so many friends. What... what burden did these young survivors tell you they had to bear?

AH: It is a really heavy burden. So when I was filming those young, brave characters, [chuckle] I saw the heavy burden and saw how difficult it was every day to just rise up and go out and be brave and fight for our values. So it's not easy, but I think I felt it was necessary and also gave them some huge force in a way to move on. I don't know, Kamzy, but I think you have this strong feelings about your mission, in a way. So for me, filming this, it was really inspiring, actually, despite it was a really dark terrorist attack, I felt this light is in a way shining through the dark happening. And move in the future to just remind us how important it is to fight for democracy and for free speech and for being the society we want it to be.

CO: Kamzy, does that ring true to you?

KG: Yeah, I think Aslaug is right because I felt so inspired by the other three women, really, like truly inspired by how they are both handling it and also how they keep fighting in their everyday life. The most important thing is that we are politicians. Like, I know people want to look at us like survivors and victims. And, you know, you have all the feelings and the burden, of course, we are carrying. But, we are politicians, we have visions, we have things we want to do, and only through our political tools, we can create the society that do not create another terrorist like that. And that's our mission. That's... that's my mission. And I think that that will be so important to mobilize people to come with us on that. I think people maybe think that's a bit too early to talk about it, but we have to start somewhere. And I think this movie is an... is an invitation to be a part of the work we all have to do. Because after 22nd of July, everyone gave each other a promise. They said never again, 22nd of July. And everyone, you know, raised their hand with roses. Those pictures went all over the world. Now, my question is, what did you guys mean when you said never again when you said never again, 22nd of July? Was those just words? How do you reflect those promises in your actions in everyday life? So it's just a ball I'm just throwing out there.

CO: You've done more than to throw out a ball, haven't you, Kamzy? [KG chuckles] Because you are the deputy mayor of Oslo now. [chuckling] So that force that Aslaug is speaking of that she saw in you and the others, it is a force to be reckoned with. You can see it in this documentary because you go out and you speak to young people. What is the conversation you have with them?

KG: Oh, it's just the most inspiring thing you can do. Because young people, they have so much hope. You know, sometimes you just need to find young people to talk to them, to get to feel what they feel about hope, love. And the most important thing that we show in the movie and that I engage through is that this guy, this terrorist guy, he came to an island because he disagreed with us. He could not have the self-confidence to meet us in a debate. He couldn't speak, he couldn't write. He couldn't do anything in a democratic way to show his disagreement with us. So the first and the most important thing that I like to do this workshop around is about freedom of speech. Like, how do you handle when you disagree? Like, how do you move forward when you have an idea and, you know, that might provoke someone? Like, how do you handle it when you are working with a great, great project but someone is disagreeing with you? So meet young people. Giving them realistic examples to how to handle those situations have been pretty inspiring because those kids can handle that disagreement because they meet different people every day. And when you meet different people in the kindergarten, in the school, in the working life, it grows in you to disagree in a respectful and a not harmful way. So what we've been doing is to visit different schools, talking about freedom of speech, asking them how they practice their freedom of speech, and how it helps other people in the society? And it's been so inspiring listening to them.

CO: How do they regard Anders Breivik? How do they see this man who not only killed so many of your friends and associates, but is now a symbol of what this kind of hatred of others, this fear of the other, is not just in your country, but around the world. How do they regard him?

KG: Well, the students I meet, I think they expect hate because they always start with asking me how I feel? And I tell them that I… I don't want to waste my time on hate. I don't want to hate. It doesn't bring my friends back who he killed. It doesn't bring time back. It doesn't give me anything. But we can actually do a lot together to prevent another person like him to be created. So they get shocked, [chuckle] naturally. Like, why don't you hate him? Why don't you want to kill him? Why don't you want to, you know, climb over the wall and go to his prison cell and just take him down? Like, if they're ten years old, That is their questions. And I'm telling them that it doesn't help anyone. I don't feel like it. I don't feel like killing him or hating him. I just feel pity for him. I do. And that pity it's going to be translated into actions and... and other helpful tools for other people and not wasting my time on hating him.

CO: You're listening to "As It Happens", and I am speaking with the filmmaker and one of the people featured in a new documentary called "Generation Utoya", which is at the Hot Docs Festival this year. And Aslaug, I just want... I want to ask you about this time in history, because not only 2011 is this horrible event in your country, defining moment, but also this beginning of a time when we saw probably the biggest refugee crisis in Europe, in the world, really, since the Second World War. We saw hundreds of thousands, millions of people on the move, trying to get refuge from wars around everywhere, and many of them coming to Europe and trying to come to Norway. What... what effect did that have? Because you saw a lot of the kinds of ideas that Anders Breivik was spouting. They surfaced and resurfaced in many places, didn't they?

AH: Yes. I think what the values Breivik had reflect, in a way, the threat in our time. We live in a really challenging time, I think, both in Europe and USA. And this fear, which maybe starts with if you don't have the social skills and economic good place in your own life, you are afraid of refugees, and that someone will come up outside the country, and you will only fight for yourself. It's about surviving. So I think this hatred, the right-wing extremist values are connecting deeply to social classes. I think it's about polarizing. It happens all over the world. And in Norway, we have had this tradition for equal rights. And it's not so huge differences between classes and the social living. But now, that also is increasing in Norway. So I think the work Kamzy does when she is travelling around and speaking to young people is so important because she talks about where it all starts. It starts when you're young, when you're going on school, and when we are frustrated and alone, you will, in a way, feel outside, and it will be a much more risk that something will happen. So I feel the film is also trying to reflect on our time by following four young, brave women politicians. We in a way will meet this cold winds and how they feel it on their body and how they fight for their values still.

CO: these cold winds, as you refer to. Kamzy, your parents, Tamil refugees to Norway, your mother, you said she had to swim part of the way in her escape. What has it been like for... for them to see, for you as well, to see these cold winds, these ideas enter really mainstream, in some respects, Norwegian politics?

AH: When I became engaged in politics, they didn't feel safe because of how they looked at politics in Sri Lanka. But they also told me a lot later that they are afraid that I can never reach as far as other people in the society because I'm Brown, because... because I have an immigrant background. Now, if you can add to the fact that you may have some structural racism in the society, Norway as any other country, they are not happy about what they read in my commentary like Facebook and Instagram. They... they feel less safe when they read what's happening there. Because the right-wing thugs, and the way they mobilize to attack people with immigrant background, especially women, young women with immigrant background, it's... it's horrifying. Like, I'm used to it now [chuckle]. And I have a great system around me as a deputy mayor. But the problem is, maybe the most important problem that is destroying our democracy is that less and less youth will get engaged by looking at how other youth and young women and men are getting treated in public and in the social media. It worries me. Unfortunately, the way people talk to each other, we are reading and experiencing how Muslims are being treated. And how the second generation are experiencing more discrimination based on racism. And I think that a lot of people don't know their responsibility in how to create the society that will eliminate many of the differences between us. It's not about Breivik. I think a lot of people, unfortunately, I'm sorry, I don't think, I know a lot of people share his thoughts. They will never use violence like he did, but they share his thoughts. And that is worrying me that because of the way he communicated what kind of society he wanted, he has a couple of followers. Like, it's not many. But too many people are discriminating, and they're trying to look at us as second-degree citizens or that we don't belong here. But I think that is more about their feeling of losing their identity, that they don't feel home anymore in Oslo, or Norway. That they feel that they are not in the Norway they grew up in. And that's not about hating. I think that's, first and foremost, about not knowing people.

CO: Aslaug, I sense you want to add something.

AH: Yes, I feel that Kamzy, she is so good with words. It's actually about words. Because words matters. We use words every day when we act and the politicians, leaders are especially responsible for how they communicate. And I feel sometimes there are some politicians that communicate a message which is underlying. It's not explicit, but it's underlying where the people are, in a way, understand it and they act on it. So I feel it's so important to have the responsibility to which message you send out. So I'm so full of hope because Kamzy and the other women in this film, they are using their words in a hopeful way and also in a powerful way that you hope for well and for the right direction, in a way.

CO: You are listening to "As It Happens". And we're talking about this extraordinary new documentary, "Generation Utoyia", about what happened in Norway ten years ago. And we are speaking with the filmmaker and with one of the women who was featured in the documentary. Speaking of these…. these values, the values that you are trying to uphold and that you believe in and believe Norway possesses. And it came through so clearly in this interview we had with the father of one of the Utoyia survivors. And here he is speaking to me at the end of the trial of Anders Breivik.

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FATHER: I think we have to hear him. We have to confront him. We have to listen to what he did to understand it and to fight against it. And to understand our own society because he came from our own society.

CO: Now, we're going to hear from a number of other young people who survived the assault on the island that day during the course of the next week. If you could hear from your daughter, if she could address the court during this trial, what would she want to say, do you think?

FATHER: She would say you have lost. You will never win. We are alive. And Norway are building a stronger nation despite of you, or because of you. And we should fight for our dead brothers and sisters.

CO: That was [a father] speaking at the end of the trial, and he is sentenced to 22 years, and I think he can't have parole for 10 of those years. It doesn't seem…. in many countries, that wouldn't seem like a lot of years. But I understand that's the largest sentence that you have in Norway. Aslaug, I just want to ask you, you talk about words, the importance of being able to hear from people. Do you worry to some extent that making this documentary, that you have given Anders Breivik what he wants, this notoriety, this idea that somehow he changed so many people's lives, that he had such an impact, that is part of history of your country?

AH: I think I agree with that extensively. It was actually moving to hear him today now because I met him yesterday, and I'm moving with the film now around Norway. So he was on the screening, actually, and talked to me after the film and also to the audience. And he was so moved by the film. And he had this hope for the future, because I think if we can take some choices, we have to talk about it and we have to actually lift it up to the light and see what this is about. What is this political values? They are extremists values and the right-wing extremist, what is it and where does it come from? So I feel actually that the film is in a way taking up to discussion what we all carry in Norway. Because we have been maybe too…. maybe silent too long about the what is the difficult questions to talk about. But now, the time has passed. And we are 10 years after the terrorist attack. And now the time has come, I think, to take this confrontation with these ideas.

CO: Kamzy, do you want to respond?

KG I think Aslaug is totally right. I think that it's uncomfortable for Norway as a nation that he was created amongst us. It's shameful to talk about it. He is actually a result of our society. So we're done talking now. But, of course, Aslaug is right, [chuckling] words are important. And how choose... how we choose our words are very, very important. But I'm just tired of talking. Like, I want to get out there, and I want to see action by everyone because I think people think that it was a common promise, never again, 22nd of July. And then they went home, and like, OK, so what did you do the last 10 years, right? So I hope that this bill is giving people hope to, once again, asking themselves, do what can I do? How can I contribute? And I think that's the most important thing we need right now.

CO: Aslaug, I thank you for this documentary. And Kamzy, thank you for being part of it. And you're both inspirations. Thank you.

AH: Thank you so much.

CH: Kamzy Gunaratnam is featured in a documentary about the survivors of the 2011 attack in Norway called "Generation Utoya." Aslaug Holm is the director. Carol spoke with them in April. You can find that interview on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

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July 22, 2021 Episode Transcript

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