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The AIH Transcript For July 20, 2021

[hosts]Susan Bonner, Chris Howden[/hosts]

SUSAN BONNER: Hi, I'm Susan Bonner, sitting in for Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is “As It Happens”.

[music: theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

SB: Testing their patients. Nursing shortages have already led to closures at one Quebec hospital; now the head of the nurses association warns things will get worse if the province doesn't address the stress her members are under.

CH:Abandonment issues. A former Canadian soldier recounts the harrowing escape he helped orchestrate for his former interpreter in Afghanistan; he says he had to step in because Canada isn't stepping up.

SB: Not so confidential sources. An investigative journalist tells us about learning she'd been targeted by powerful spyware capable of recording phone calls, tracking her whereabouts, and secretly recording her.

CH: Pride and prejudice. The EU begins legal proceedings against Hungary and Poland over anti-LGBTQ laws it says are both discriminatory and demonizing.

SB: Careful what you fish for. When a brightly coloured 100-pound moonfish washed up on an Oregon shore, our guest high-tailed it to the beach to get a look, and ended up adopting it … sort of.

CH: And dear John Lettice. It may be time to end our relationship with salad bars, given that in the post-pandemic world, we will all be scared of the contagions our peppers might be peppered with.

CH: “As It Happens”, the Tuesday edition. Radio that's afraid the answer is on the tip of your tongs.

[music: theme]

Part 1: Quebec Nursing Demand, Pegasus Project Target, Oregon moonfish

Quebec Nursing Demand

Guest: Natalie Stake-Doucet

CH: Quebec's need for nurses continues to wreak havoc in the province's hospitals. Last week a hospital in Gatineau was forced to close its Emergency Department because of insufficient staff. We talked to a doctor in Montreal who warned that other hospitals were at risk of closure or mistakes caused by exhaustion. He blamed the pandemic -- but also policies that have nurses quitting public sector positions for private agencies or leaving the profession entirely. But Natalie Stake-Doucet says the real issue is that nurses aren't being treated with respect. Ms. Stake-Doucet is the President of the Quebec Nurses Association. We reached her on a break from her shift at a vaccine clinic in Montreal.

SB: Ms. Stake-Doucet, how would you describe the stress nurses are facing right now in Quebec?

NATALIE STAKE-DOUCET: Probably unbearable. And I think that's why a lot of them are leaving, unfortunately, is their stress level and their health is really on the line right now. And so a lot of them feel they need to leave to... I mean, I know it sounds extreme, but I've heard it so many times amongst colleagues in the last few months is, you know, I need to leave to save myself.

SB: What kind of specific stories and examples are they telling you about what it's like to be at work these days?

NSD: There's a lot of different stories. I mean, what seems to be almost universal is forced overtime. And so when I mention forced overtime, I'm not talking about, you know, staying an hour or so because a patient isn't doing well or if there is, you know, some kind of disaster like a big car accident. What I'm talking about forced overtime. I mean, most institutions plan their staffing according to the very minimum needs that they can do. And so, if anything happens, you end up understaffed. And so that often means that they're going to force somebody to stay for a whole extra shift, which in the case of nursing can be very dangerous for both the nurse and patients because, after a 16-hour shift, you're not functioning at your optimal level anymore. And coming into work and not knowing when you're going to be allowed to leave is extremely stressful and extremely demoralizing for a lot of nurses.

SB: One of your colleagues has described the working conditions as barbaric. What does that mean?

NSD: In the sense that many nurses and health care workers, in general, do not feel respected at all within their... their workplace. You know, as nurses, we're health care professionals. We're educated. We have the knowledge and the competencies to be able to evaluate the safety of different measures, how many patients we feel is safe for us to handle in a single shift, for example. And, you know, we're willing to help and to put in extra effort, but we want to work together. We don't want to be treated like numbers. We want to be solicited for our clinical judgement, and we want to be heard. And so, you know, if one day, for example, somebody doesn't come in and I end up having to treat more patients than usual, I want to be able to talk to my manager about it saying, OK, is this only a temporary thing or is this going to last a long time? Because I'm willing to do it today, but it's not super safe. And a lot of nurses feel they're not being heard when they talk about that. On the contrary, often, they're met with either indifference or, in really worst cases, hostility.

SB: You say that you've heard nurses say that they have to leave to save themselves, and thousands have left their public sector jobs. Where are they going?

NSD: Absolutely. Well, I mean, you know, once we leave, we're still nurses, right? So that's why, for me, I have a real issue with talking about a shortage of nurses. We've never had so many nurses in Quebec. We just have a shortage of working conditions that will convince them to stay. And, you know, a lot of nurses are going to the private sector, to private staffing agencies, which in and of themselves are kind of a problem. You know, there's issues with continuity of care and things like that. But the public sector is making it so easy for private agencies to recruit. Because in a staffing agency, you can choose your hours. There's no forced overtime or very, very rarely. The pay is much, much higher. And you have autonomy. So, you know, as long as we don't get at least similar conditions within the public health care system, it's going to be very hard to compete. And, you know, the main thing that we want is just to be listened to and to be consulted. And we want to... we want to make the public health care system better.

SB: Quebec's health minister says he's working on the issue with the heads of the regional health authorities in the province. What is your message to Christian Dubé?

NSD: My message is: think about the best practices in management. When you're looking for a workforce in this or that domain, you're going to incentivize the work. And it's very frustrating because that has happened several times where for one reason or another, the government needed to invest in a certain industry to attract workers and to retain workers. And, you know, it's hard not to think that it's because we're a female-dominated profession that, you know, we're not treated the same way as other male-dominated professions. And, you know --

SB: You believe that?

NSD: Yes, absolutely. I mean, there's a lot of stats that, you know, demonstrate that jobs that are mostly done by women are not treated the same way by politicians and decision-makers, then jobs that are done by a majority of men. So, you know, I would... I would like to invite our decision-makers and our health minister to... to think about how he's treating nurses. And is he treating us as health care professionals or is he treating us, you know, like nuns or… [chuckling] or, you know, does he have this image of the vocation in his head that a lot of people still do? Or does he really and truly consider us as health care professionals the same way he would other health care professionals or any professional in the province, whether it be physicians, firefighters, whatever? You know, it seems highly likely from the kind of discourse that we've heard from the government that in jobs and professions where there are many more women or that are considered, quote/unquote, women's work, we're not treated the same way.

SB: I wonder if you have a message for the public? You know, we have seen communities, streets, families, people banging on pots and putting up signs in their neighbourhood, professing their love for front line workers and health care professionals. What do you think the public needs to know about what nurses are facing?

NSD: I remember I was working in long-term care at the beginning of the pandemic. And every night when I heard that on my street, it would bring me to tears. It was... we needed that kind of support. But today, we need also support in regards to decision-makers. As much as we appreciate the singing and the banning on pots, we would also appreciate if you could, you know, maybe write a letter or call your MP to tell them how you feel if nurses are treated fairly or not. And it's important that the public stand behind us on that because we need everybody's support.

SB: Ms. Stake-Doucet, thank you so much for your time.

NSD: My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.

CH: Natalie Stake-Doucet is the President of the Quebec Nurses Association. We reached her in Montreal.

[music: glassy guitar]

Pegasus Project Target

Guest: Khadija Ismayilova

CH: It is powerful software that's supposedly used to target terrorists and criminals. But an investigation by a number of major news organizations has shown the Pegasus spyware has ended up on the phones of journalists, human rights activists and political dissidents. The targets include the fiancée of murdered Washington Post journalist Jamal Khashoggi. The Israeli company that makes the spyware, NSO Group, says it only sells the products to "vetted government agencies". Khadija Ismayilova is an Azerbaijani investigative journalist who was found to have been a target of the Pegasus software. She now lives in Ankara, Turkey.

SB: Miss Ismayilova, what was your first reaction when you found out that your phone had been infected by this Pegasus spyware?

KHADIJA ISMAYILOVA: It was really gross. When I learned that family members were also included as targets, and when I learned that close friends are there, the taxi driver who was regular in service, he was there. And I was devastated. It's like... you feel like you have to wear the sign, "I'm dangerous," so people don't get close to you. If they get close to you, they will be endangered as well.

SB: This spyware, as I understand it, it can record phone calls, it can read text messages, it can access your photographs, all your passwords, it can track your GPS data. It can even make secret audio and video recordings. So what does that mean for you and for your sources?

KI: Well, if we describe it short, everything you do in and out of the phone, near the phone, is being surveilled, is being recorded, is being monitored. So it means that you shouldn't live. I mean, life without gadgets is impossible now. So it means that without... you have to live without your phone. And if you want privacy, your phone should be somewhere else. Can you imagine the life in 21st century without any mobile phones? I… I don't. And I actually even sleep with my cell phone because... because of the constant attacks on my social media. Now, it's... it's like a turning point. You have to decide how will you border your life?

SB: And what about your family members who you've learned through this week were also targeted?

KI: My family's kind of got accustomed to it. They got used to it, to being a target. And I apologize and apologize. So, all that I can do.

SB: Do you think they're looking for the... your private life information or the private life information of your sources -- or both?

KI: Both, I guess. And, like, they've been monitoring people from my private life who have nothing to do. They have not sources. I'm not discussing sources with them. It's... it has nothing to do with the work. So they were in the list as well.

SB: Have any of your confidential sources expressed their concern to you over this, their fear? Do they feel in danger?

KI: So far, no. So far, everyone is writing that they love me. They support me. Some of them wrote that if they are infected because of me, let it be and so on. But, I mean, I'm yet to see the taxi driver. He doesn't know probably yet.

SB: But you did say to me that you... you felt that you were a danger now because of this. So, do you feel that you may have endangered, obviously by nothing you've done, but... but your... your sources may be endangered because of this?

KI: Well, of course, the sources are endangered. And, of course, I am endangered. My family members are endangered. The sources whom I am talking to are endangered. I'm trying to keep them, like, offline, communication with sources offline. But, I mean, it's not... it's not always possible, especially during the pandemic, when we could not go and meet, or it was difficult to communicate, like, face-to-face, vis-a-vis. Yes, everyone is endangered. And people should... it's good that people know about it. And it's very graceful of them to... not to be angry with me for that. But still, I'm feeling guilty because it's me who is making them... making some of them targets.

SB: The NSAO Group, which is the Israeli company that makes this Pegasus spyware, has said it only works with vetted agencies, and that its purpose was to target criminals and terrorists. What message do you have for the company that made this software and sold it to Azerbaijan?

KI: Well, first of all, to make sure that only criminals and terrorists are targeted, they have to have the court orders that allows a surveillance. So have they seen court orders allowing them to attack so many people? And moreover, they've been attacking, like, hundreds in Azerbaijan. Were they really suspecting that so many people had to be surveilled? It... it takes just one Google search to understand what Azerbaijani government is and how they've been using surveillance techniques so far.

SB: What do you mean?

KI: I mean, if they would Google, make due diligence before choosing the client, they would understand that the Azerbaijani government is notorious for using surveillance technology against critics of the government, activists and journalists -- instead of terrorists and criminals.

SB: Has all of this limited your ability to do your job?

KI: Of course it does. Of course, it does. And I guess lots of people who would like to pass information. They will... they will restrain themselves. They will restrict themselves from... refrain from doing that. They will not contact. They will not get in touch. Our work is based on trust. And this trust is broken not for... because of me. This trust is broken because the government has broken into my life. And it's... it will take time to develop a new strategy on how to get in touch with sources and people who are a valuable source of information.

SB: Ms. Ismayilova. Thank you very much for your time.

KI: Thank you. Bye.

CH: Khadija Ismayilova is an Azerbaijani investigative journalist who lives in Ankara, Turkey. That's where we reached her. And for more on this story, you can go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: hip-hop beat]

Oregon moonfish

Guest: Tiffany Boothe

CH: It washed up -- but it's definitely not washed out. The dead moonfish that appeared onshore in Oregon last week was extremely colourful. It was also huge -- about the size of a large dog. Big and bright enough that you couldn't miss it lying there on the beach, where it caused quite a stir. Not least because moonfish -- also known as "opah" -- don't usually swim close to shore, so when they heard the news, Tiffany Boothe and her colleague at the local aquarium rushed to the beach. We reached Ms. Boothe in Seaside, Oregon.

SB: Ms. Boothe, can you describe the scene that you encountered when you rushed down to the shore

to check out this fish?

TIFFANY BOOTHE: Well, it was bigger than we initially thought, that's for sure. [chuckling] We... we got a call with one of our volunteers at the Marine Mammal Stranding Network, and she had come across a fish she had never seen before. She sent us a photograph. And in the photo, it looked quite a bit smaller. But when we pulled up to it, there was a three-foot, 100-pound opah, a fish we'd never seen before, either.

SB: A hundred pounds! That's about 45 kilograms.

TB: Yes! [chuckling]

SB: That's a big fish!

TB: Yes! [laughing]

SB: What kind of shape was it in?

TB: It was in almost pristine condition. It really hadn't been on the beach that long. The seagulls had done a tiny bit of scavenging, but that's about it.

SB: How do you think it ended up there?

TB: You know, we're not sure. Opahs, they do travel this far north, especially in the summer, but they're usually in an offshore current. They follow the same current that the tuna do. So for him to be this close to shore and wash up on the beach in a way he did, that's kind of the more unusual part about this fish.

SB: What is behind, aside from the size of the fish, what's behind the excitement over this... this fish's arrival?

TB: You know, the fact that it was just absolutely gorgeous. Its colouring is this brilliant silver and orange. And, you know, we don't really have that many colourful fish here off the Oregon coast.

SB: I understand this fish is warm-blooded?

TB: It is! They are one of the more unique fish in the way that they can actually raise their body temperature above that of the ambient water.

SB: So what is it that scientists understand about this fish? And... and what might they be able to learn from... from this discovery?

TB: You know, they... [clears throat] there's not a whole lot known about the natural history of these guys. And so one of the things we'll be doing when we do dissect it with a school group is we're going to be taking samples so that they can do some genetics on it. There are a couple of different species of opah, and they just want to see exactly which species this one is. They're also going to be looking at stomach contents. So we'll be taking stomach content samples for them as well.

SB: Until that happens, what kind of reaction have you seen from people who've had a chance to look at the fish?

TB: People are really interested in this thing! [chuckling] They're not that rare of a fish. They're just kind of rare for people to see on the beach and just for an everyday person to see. You don't come across a three-foot, 100-pound fish very often.

SB: Is this a fish that some people might eat?

TB: Yeah, supposedly. I've read they're very delicious. They eat them a lot in the South Pacific and in Hawaii.

SB: So you're not going to eat this guy?

TB: I'm not going to eat this guy. [laughing] I was tempted, but no.

SB: Will the scientists be able to... to figure out what brought this fish to the shore, how it died?

TB: I'm not sure that's going to kind of be up in the air. We'll just see what we find when we dissect them.

SB: And… and you're going to involve young people in that exercise?

TB: Yeah. A local school group will be involved in the dissection.

SB: And they're going to be, as you say, dissecting a fish that most of them will never see again in their lives. Can you give us a little more information about what's extraordinary about this fish? How big can they get?

TB: These guys can get about six feet across and weigh almost 600 pounds.

SB: Wow!

TB: They're solitary fish. So it's kind of hard for scientists just to go and target and learn about these guys.

SB: They don't swim in a school?

TB: They don't swim in a school.

SB: So this wayward fish that ended up on the beach, that's quite something.

TB: It is. I probably won't see it again in my life. [laughing]

SB: One of the other things I read about the opah is it's a predatory fish?

TB: Yeah, these guys, they eat, for the most part, squid and krill, but they will eat smaller baitfish.

SB: So could this fish have been chasing some prey and got off track?

TB: That is a possibility.

SB: What kind of possibilities have... have you heard floating around the aquarium as people have been talking about this new arrival?

TB: For the most part, people are speculating global warming without knowing that these guys do actually come this far north. But without opening the... the little guy up, we won't really know.

SB: What clues could there be as you open him up to answer some of the questions, for example, about whether global warming had anything to do with what happened to this fish?

TB: Well, one of the other species of opah don't get quite as large. So they... they can max out their size at around three feet and 100 pounds. So it could be that it just simply died of old age. It also could be that he's full of parasites. You know, there's a lot of different speculations. And in the end, we probably might not ever find out.

SB: Well, it sounds like it brought a little bit of summer excitement to the aquarium?

TB: Very much so. [laughing]

SB: Good luck with the dissection and the intelligence gathering. I hope you find some interesting clues about what happened to this fish.

TB: Well, thank you very much.

SB: Bye-bye.

TB: Bye.

CH: That was Tiffany Boothe of the Seaside Aquarium in Oregon. And you can find that interview -- along with some photos of the fish -- on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: island rock]

R.I.P. Salad Bar

CH: In Shakespeare's "Antony and Cleopatra", Cleopatra dismisses her whole misguided affair with Julius Caesar as "My salad days, when I was green in judgment." Meaning that she was young and foolish, not that she was covered in oil and vinegar dressing. Also, not that she ate a lot of Caesar Salad, since that was named for restaurateur Caesar Cardini, who invented it in Mexico in 1924. But I digress. I mention Cleopatra because it turns out we may look back on our salad bar days as our salad days. When we could peruse a whole cold, open table full of exposed bowls of salad fixings, gently marinated in the breath of everyone who leaned over to consider the radishes and kale, before deciding instead on four heaping spoonfuls of bacon bits. Recently, CNN reported that American grocery chains -- including big ones like Wegmans and Stop & Shop -- have no plans to reopen their salad bars. Partly because the pandemic means less business, which means all the perishable items in the salad bar perish. And partly -- or mostly -- because of the overwhelming sense that every damp slice of cucumber has been thoroughly bathed in the dubious exhalations of dozens of sighing strangers. Now, of course, maybe this is premature. Maybe we'll be able to make our own salads in public again one day, somehow. But maybe now the end is near -- and so we face that final crouton.

[music: elevator music]

Part two: Vets/Afghan interpreters, Anti-LGBTQ zones lawsuit

Vets/Afghan interpreters

Guest: Corey Shelson

SB: What can you tell me about the kind of help that you and this group of veterans that have decided to do as much as you can to help these people get out safe. What does that look like?

CS: Well, the group of individuals that I'm connected with, you know, we have a bias towards action. The situation on the ground is rapidly evolving in real-time, and the Taliban are rapidly taking back control of Afghanistan. And, you know, our group that's made up of Canadian Forces veterans and concerned citizens, we're trying to do something very simple. It is identify affected individuals that are at risk and help move them into a safer place that they can stay until the Canadian government does something. So we're just trying to buy... we're just trying to buy them time. So the expectation that we're going to be able to get them out of the country, probably not. You know, we... there's only so much that our group can do. And I mean, so at the end of the day, we just... we need to know. Canada, Canadian citizens, need to know what is the plan. We are all in this together. We're here. We're standing by, ready to support the government, ready to hand over the things that we have done so that they can get a head start on what they're doing. We wrote, and when I say we, our group, and it was authored by three previous task force commanders. So these are all general level officers in the Canadian military, wrote an open letter to the government of Canada and to the prime minister, to the minister of immigration and to the minister of national defence, stating that we were looking for a plan and pleading for action to be taken immediately. And we have not received a response. And the only people who are acting is honestly a hodgepodge group of Canadian Forces veterans and a few volunteer civilians. And we are doing our absolute best. There are people taking money out of their own bank accounts and sending it by Western Union, trying to help these people get out of Dodge. It just really tells me that something is wrong.

SB: Can I ask you personally, as a veteran, what is it... what is it like for you to watch this resurgence from the Taliban, and... and to know that there are people who you worked with so closely who are in immediate danger?

CS: The fact that a lot, I'm talking a lot of Afghan veterans, Canadian Forces Afghan veterans, are receiving Facebook messages, social media messages, text messages from individuals that we stay in contact with back in Afghanistan, pleading for our help to rescue them. How do you think that makes veterans feel, when not only are we seeing the ground that we fought for being taken back, and we're having to deal with the, you know, the soul-searching that goes along with making sense of that emotionally. But then you have all of these comrades that we served with that we promised to help bring to Canada reaching out for our assistance, and there's nothing we can do. This is a national crisis, and it's a humanitarian crisis that needs global attention. And it needs a national strategy. And that strategy needs to start right now.

SB: Mr. Shelson, we appreciate you telling us about it. Thank you so much.

CS: Thank you so much.

CH: Corey Shelson is a retired Canadian soldier who is working to get Afghan interpreters to safety. We reached him in London, Ontario.

[music: piano]

Insects in Manitoba

CH: Farmers have put in a lot of time and money. And their return on investment is infestment. Earlier this month, you may have heard our interview with Manitoba farmer Tom Johnson. On top of the drought and the water shortage, he was also dealing with grasshoppers. A lot of them. Farmers in parts of the country have reported a surge in populations this year. Paige Thornborough knows first-hand the damage these insects can do. She says they've been a nightmare at her Alberta home recently. Her house and yard are covered in grasshoppers. They've destroyed her garden. And they've forced her family inside. This morning, Ms. Thornborough spoke with the CBC about her property.

SOUNDCLIP

PAGE THORNBOROUGH: So we are actually on right on the edge of Lethbridge.

DAVID GRAY: Right.

PT: And it's part of... part of why we picked our, you know, our lot when we went to build our house. We had a beautiful farmer's field right behind our house with gorgeous views. It felt like we were out of the city. And so because of where we are on the farmer's field, we're getting all of the grasshoppers that are sort of migrating inwards this year, so.

DG: [chuckling] OK. What's it like when you go for a walk? Can you describe what it feels like?

PT: Well, we've kind of started trying to [both chuckle] within the last couple of days. We found that they've been getting a little bit progressively worse. But essentially, you know, we'll go for a walk. You know, I'll take my... my girls to even check the mail, get our mail at the mailbox, which is like, you know, half-a-block away. And we'll probably have to dodge, like, I don't know, I’m not very good with numbers, but like hundreds and hundreds of grasshoppers.

DG: And do they all leap up when you come through? Are they banging off your legs, this kind of thing?

PT: Yeah, we usually have to cover our mouths [chuckling] or try and cover our hair because, yeah, they're... they're just going crazy. They're jumping everywhere. They're flying everywhere. It's like a horror movie.

DG: Do they make a noise?

PT: Yes! So we've actually had to start eating meals with our blinds and our curtains closed because they like to, you know, crawl up the windows and they keep pinging off of them. So we hear, like, tick, tick, tick against our siding and against our windows. And we were just losing our appetite.

DG: [both chuckle] Oh boy!

PT: So we had to close the windows. So we just had to hear the sound versus seeing and hearing. [laughing]

DG: Can you do anything to… to fight back or do you just have to wait it out?

PT: Not really. We've been... you know, we've tried honestly, every single thing you can possibly find on... on the Internet in terms of more natural solutions. But all the research we've done says it takes a heck of a, you know, a pesticide or insecticide to get rid of these little hoppers. So we feel like our hands are pretty tied right now in terms of what our options are. And, you know, even then, some of our neighbours are using some more of the chemicals. And it says... you know, they're saying it helps for about two hours and after that, they're right back. So it's a little bit of a hopeless situation, actually.

DG: Do you even know when it's going to end?

PT: Well, unfortunately, based on, you know, talking to farmers and based on some research that we've done, it sounds like it might be the situation for a few years. Grasshoppers lay their eggs in the fall. And typically, if it's a, you know, a mild winter or dry winter, all of those eggs are going to, you know, going to come back up next year. So it sounds like we're just kind of getting going with the peak of... of how bad this can be. I don't know what we're going to do. We pick the house because of the view and, you know, we can't even enjoy it. So I'm not... I don't know how long we’ll be sticking around. [laughing]

CH: That was Paige Thornborough of Lethbridge, Alberta speaking with "Calgary Eyeopener" host, David Gray, about the grasshopper infestation at her home.

[music: jazz]

Anti-LGBTQ zones lawsuit

Guest: Marc Angel

CH: LGBTQ rights have become the latest issue to test the bonds of the European Union. In Hungary, a new law has banned LGBTQ themes in television and school materials for people under 18. In Poland, dozens of towns and villages have created so-called "LGBT ideology free zones." And in response, the EU has launched legal actions against both countries. Marc Angel is a Member of European Parliament from Luxembourg. He's also the co-chair of the EU's LGBTQI intergroup Committee. We reached him in Luxembourg City.

SB: Mr. Angel, can you describe these “ideology free zones” in Poland? What are they exactly?

MARC ANGEL: Basically, it says that LGBTQI is not the norm, and... and it's quite discriminating. And it's a... it's a political declaration of the local authorities.

SB: What about Hungary's ban on reflecting any LGBTQ content to children under 18? How does that work?

MA: Yeah, that's also terrible because this is in the... first of all, you have to see the context. This is in a law they made to protect children from paedophilia, which everybody agrees paedophilia is something we cannot tolerate. But comparing homosexuality or transgenderism to paedophilia, there they are on a very slippery slope, as I could say. And we cannot tolerate that Young people do not have sexual education, proper sexual education, where everything is discussed. Also, LGBTQI issues, these are very important for children. And I can give you a very good example. My radio station in Luxembourg called me and they said, we have Pride Week now in Luxembourg, and we want to make a for the kids news -- they have a program for children's news. Mr. Angel, can you explain us what Pride Week is and what LGBTQI is all about? And I did an interview, and this is broadcasted here in Luxembourg. In Hungary, this would have been forbidden now. The radio station and myself, we would have been against the law doing such a normal thing explaining to children what a Pride Week is or what a Pride Month is, etc.. This is terrible for the young people in Hungary. You know, it's not always easy for youngsters to come out and they have to be able to learn about their sexuality, to learn about their identity, their gender identity. And if you opress all of this, this this can lead to to a lot of misery and sometimes also to suicide. And therefore, this cannot happen.

SB: Why is it that a legal challenge is the right way for the European Union to try to deal with this situation?

MA: Well, the European Union is also a union of values. And in our treaties, rule of law, democracy and fundamental rights. These are the foundations of the European Union and Hungary and Poland. When they joined the European Union, they knew this, the treaties existed. So it's not that we invented this against them. These are our values. And if you breach these values, this cannot happen. And this is why finally now, in the European Union, we have a reaction. We have to react. And we cannot tolerate this because this goes against our treaties, especially against Article Two, where we really uphold rule of law, fundamental rights. And for us, and for everybody, I think LGBTQI rights are human rights, just as women's rights are human rights. LGBTQI rights are human rights. And human rights, they are indivisible. You cannot just apply them for one part of the population and not for others. They count for all of us.

SB: Hungary's justice minister has tweeted, and I quote here, they want [they being the European Union], they want to force us to let sexual propaganda spread among our children. With a comment like that, how hopeful are you that Hungary and Poland will move to change these laws?

MA: First of all, Hungary and Poland, they always talk about an LGBTQI ideology. And it's not an ideology. If you're gay or lesbian or a trans person or intersex person, that's an identity. But what they are doing, they choose to be homophobic or transphobia. And that's a choice. Just to start with that. And, you know, there's... there will be elections next year in Hungary. The last election, the party of Prime Minister Orbán they wanted was scapegoating the refugees that was in the middle of the refugee crisis in Europe. And they scapegoated on refugees. Now, that problem doesn't exist anymore. So they had to find another scapegoat. And now they found another minority. And it's the LGBTQi people. I can remember that last year during the Polish election, when the Polish presidential election was the candidate who won the elections and who was the former president, he said that LGBTQI ideology is worse than communism. This hate speech was already existing in Poland. And Hungary is just repeating this now.

SB: What exactly is the EU's legal action proposing?

MA: We have a few possible actions. First of all, what happened now? The European Commission finally came up with an infringement procedures against the two countries. They said that thee “ideology free zones, in Poland, they already asked them for information. Poland didn't give them sufficient clear answers. So they called an infringement procedure. For Hungary, it's the infringement procedure against also that young people are not getting information on sexual education and LGBTQI information. And also, the fact that the books, children's books with content, have to be marked with... with a special sticker that it says pay attention. There is LGBTQI content in this book. Now, these two countries, Poland and Hungary, have two months to answer. And if the answer is OK, then the commission says there's no problem. But I'm sure that this won't be the case. Then, the commission at the end can go to the European Court of Justice and then start a case against these two countries. That's one way to do. There's another way. When we voted in December last year, the seven-year budget, which we called the Multi-Financial Framework, it's the budget for seven years there. We... we have a rule of law conditionality mechanism. And here also the European Parliament pushes the commission and the European Council that they really have to trigger this rule of law conditionality mechanism. If rule of law is not respected, then some funds will not be paid to those member states. And I think money is the only language that Poland and Hungary, which are countries which are really profiting from the European Union, and which is good because they need that money. But we cannot pay money if the values of the European Union are not respected.

SB: Mr Angel, thank you.

MA: You're very welcome.

SB: Bye-bye.

MA: Yes. Bye-bye.

CH: Marc Angel is a Member of European Parliament from Luxembourg. He's the co-chair of the EU's LGBTQI intergroup Committee. And we reached him in Luxembourg City.

[music: horns!!!]

The Bottom Is Up For Bikini Bottoms

CH: It started with their bottoms -- now we're here. The Norwegian women's beach handball team thinks they should be able to cover their behinds while competing. And on Sunday, they argued the point convincingly, by replacing the regulation bikini bottoms with shorts for a game. To which the European Handball Federation issued a counterpoint: a team fine of over 2,000 dollars, for flouting a regulation that's short on logic and even shorter on fabric. The rules state that female athletes must wear bikini bottoms, quote, "cut on an upward angle toward the top of the leg", the side width of which "must be of a maximum of 10 centimeters." Which seems very precisely calculated for something that serves precisely no purpose beyond sexualizing female players. And by comparison, male players are instructed to wear shorts that fall 10 centimetres above the kneecap, and meet the strict requirement of being "not too baggy". The federation says the fines are for "improper clothing". Which is exactly what the Norwegian athletes say they were protesting against. Not just because bikini bottoms are exposing -- but because they actually make it harder to play. And Norway may have lost, but it drew an important line in the sand. They can't be the only players tired of being attired like that. You can bet your bottom dollar.

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July 20, 2021 Episode Transcripts

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