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The AIH Transcript For July 16, 2021

[hosts]Duncan McCue, Chris Howden[/hosts]

DUNCAN MCCUE: Hi, I'm Duncan McCue, sitting in for Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is “As It Happens”.

[music: theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

DMC: Weathering the storm. A city councillor in Barrie, Ontario tells us how she narrowly escaped a tornado by hiding in the basement with her son -- and emerged to see that the storm tore the roof off the house.

CH: The depths of despair. Catastrophic floods have killed more than a hundred people in Germany and Belgium -- our guest describes the terrible moment she watched the street outside her home become a wild river.

DMC: Famous first words. A promising new implant enables a paralyzed man to communicate -- by translating the electrical impulses of his brain into speech.

CH: A dramatic sea-liloquy. Scientists couldn't hear any replies to its calls of unusually high frequency -- which is why it's referred to, with unusually high frequency, as "the loneliest whale in the world".

DMC: He couldn't leave whale enough alone. Filmmaker Josh Zeman set out to find the giant sea creature known as "52" -- and his new documentary reveals that the ocean is a tough place to make yourself heard.

CH: And… handle them with kid gloves. A national park in Hawaii is overrun with goats -- and you can take home as many as 50, provided you win the goat lottery.

CH: “As It Happens”, the Friday edition. Radio that suggests you act fast -- because all goat things must come to an end.

[music: theme]

Part 1: Barrie Tornado, Germany Flooding, Paralyzed Brain Study

Barrie Tornado

Guest: Natalie Harris

CH: Natalie Harris made it down into the basement just in time. Yesterday afternoon, the Barrie city councillor, and her son Adam, scrambled to get underground as a tornado ripped through their neighbourhood in southern Ontario. When they emerged, they couldn't believe their eyes:

SOUNDCLIP

NATALIE HARRIS: Oh, my God! A tornado just hit our house! Adam, the roof is gone. The roof is gone. Oh, my God! Oh, my God! Oh, my God!

CH: Environment Canada estimates the tornado brought winds of up to 210 kilometres an hour and left a path of destruction about five kilometres wide. Several homes have been destroyed. At least 11 people were injured -- four were taken to hospital for treatment. Today, Ontario Premier Doug Ford vowed to help support the hardest-hit communities. We reached Natalie Harris in Barrie.

DMC: Natalie, listening to that clip, you sounded shaken up. How are you feeling now?

NH: You know, I'm just so happy that everybody's OK. And that Adam and I and the dogs made it down into the basement in time. And it's just like a dream, to be honest. It's a nightmare. It's actually my recurring nightmare. I've had it my entire life, and it just came to fruition.

DMC: You've really had a recurring nightmare of tornadoes?

NH: Yes.

DMC: Oh my goodness!

NH: My entire life. Not even kidding.

DMC: OK, so the nightmare came real. Can you take us back to that moment at your ex-husband's house? What were you seeing around you?

NH: Well, I came over just to visit, and John, my ex, was just at Costco, maybe about five kilometres away, and he saw the debris flying around. And so he called Adam. And John just said, get the dogs and go in the basement. We got downstairs, and I would say maybe 30 seconds later, the power went out. And not even a second after that, we knew the tornado was on top of the house. And it was just so loud and unbelievably... like, noise I've never really heard before. Everything was just breaking and smashing. And it was so loud that Adam, my son, he's 15. We couldn't hear each other, and he wanted my attention, and he grabbed my face and turned it towards him. And said you're not going upstairs. And I'm like, I know, Adam. And I had a dog in my hands, and Adam had a dog in his hands, and the dust started coming down the stairs. So we moved from the very bottom of the basement stairs. And Adam just kind of pushed me into the corner, and we stood there, and it probably lasted for like six seconds. And then when it was done, it was done. And then I... I'm like, oh, my God. Like, I have to go upstairs. And I couldn't... I couldn't even open the basement door. It was jammed. And I turned my camera on because I'm like, I need to show John what just happened. Like, I've no idea what I'm walking into. And you see my expression. I just couldn't believe it. I... I could see the sky when I walked upstairs.

DMC: What's really incredible, Natalie, in that video is you look up, and you can see sky. What was it like when you realized the roof of your house was gone?

NH: Oh, my God! It was just... it was just like a dream, honestly. It's like the roof is gone. And I still don't really know the level of the damage anywhere else. I think, OK, maybe the roof is gone. But I didn't know the whole back half of the house was gone. Our next-door neighbour's house is a pancake. It was a two-level house, and now it's one. And thank God they weren't home. And you see, when I open up the door, it was just like a movie set, like, how is this even happening? There's still insulation falling from the sky. And there was one other guy out there. And I came outside, and we were just kind of walking around in a daze. And I... and then slowly but surely other people were coming out of their houses.

DMC: What did the street and the neighbourhood look like?

NH: It looks like a disaster. It's a disaster. And you could literally tell where the tornado hit because there's houses across the... like on a different road kind of adjacent to this street, but don't have anything wrong with them. Our roof is completely gone. You can see inside like a dollhouse into the top of the house and see each room. And my son is usually in his bedroom, and it's just no longer… all the windows are smashed. Everything's gone. If my ex didn't call and say for us to go into the basement, I honestly don't know what would have happened. I couldn't imagine how Adam would have survived that. And then when I went outside, that's when the tornado warning came on my phone. The warning hadn't even come out yet.

DMC: How are your neighbours doing?

NH: Everybody is just kind of the same. Luckily, next door, they have four kids; they weren't really home. Across the street, there was a daycare. I'm pretty sure none of the kids were even there. The lady who runs it, though, is just standing out on the front porch. I think you hear me yelling across the street to her in the video just saying, like, at one point I catch myself even going, you can come to my, and I'm thinking I'm inviting her over to my house because her roof is teeter-tottering almost on itself and she's just frozen on the... on the porch crying. And... and everybody's just running around, really just trying to support everyone. And people are bringing their pets outside and birds in birdcages. And we're just, you know, waiting for... we hear sirens in the distance. They're coming. But we had no idea if people were trapped in those houses yet. And thank God they weren't.

DMC: I'm guessing that this must bring back some difficult memories for people who were in Barrie back in May of 1985 when there were eight people killed when a tornado touched down. Are people recalling that event?

NH: Absolutely. So our mayor, Jeff Lehman, he was the mayor at that time as well in Barrie. And very so when I saw him, he came to the scene quite quickly. That's what he said. He's like, this is just unbelievable. It's like deja vu. This happened in the 80s. So, yeah, I think I've had a couple of people... I haven't even come close to reaching out to the people who have messaged me yet. But I know some have, some who have survived that tornado just to kind of touch base and maybe share with me how they got better and got through it, et cetera, which is wonderful. So thank you. I'll reach out to you soon. But it's just a dream still.

DMC: What kind of response have neighbours been giving you and folks from outside of Barrie as well?

NH: All over. All over. I've had people call from L.A. I've had people call literally from everywhere. And my phone is just jammed with messages of support and love. And this community is absolutely amazing. I saw it firsthand how they come running out of their homes to help each other, even when their homes are pulverized to make sure that we're all OK. And it's funny. Today, we're Stage 3 opening in Ontario. And it didn't even faze us, obviously. COVID-19 made us all hide in our homes for so long and really not know our neighbours. And then, it's sad that it's a natural disaster. But it just goes to show you so much faith in the community and in society and human beings because when we need it most, everybody comes out to help.

DMC: I'm glad you and your son and your family are safe. And thank you so much for sharing your story.

NH: You're welcome. Thank you so much.

DMC: Take care.

CH: Natalie Harris is a city councillor in Barrie, Ontario. That's where we reached her.

[music: ambient]

Germany Flooding

Guest: Anja Menzel

CH: While western North America is dangerously dry, parts of western Europe are getting dangerous amounts of rain. More than 120 people have died in Germany and Belgium after heavy rainfall caused disastrous flooding. Pictures from the region show houses destroyed, bridges broken, roads covered with debris, cars piled on top of each other, and people waist-deep in murky, brown water. In Germany, rescuers continue to search as hundreds of people are unaccounted for. Anja Menzel lives in Hagen, in North Rhine-Westphalia, one of the two worst-hit states in the country. We reached her in Hagen.

DMC: Anja, you've shared a video on your Twitter of water just rushing through your neighbourhood. Can you describe it for... for those who haven't seen it?

ANJA MENZEL: Yes, this is the street that I live on. And basically, it's a street that is uphill. There's... the street is nonexistent. It's a wild river. Basically, it has turned into a wild river.

DMC: What was it like when that water was rushing by?

AM: Horrifying, really. When I woke up on Wednesday, the first thing that I saw when I was looking out of the window was the stream and just the water running through. And, of course, I had to immediately check with friends and neighbours from the neighbourhood if they were OK and check into the cellar if it was flooded, which was not, luckily. And then, of course, go outside and see what it's like and what the damage is that has been done. And the water was running over the street for 48 hours.

DMC: Take us back to when that started. I mean, how much rain ended up falling in... over the couple of days?

AM: A lot of it has been the most that has been recorded since the beginning of recordings. And so it was quite a lot. And it caused a little creek that usually flows from the woods uphill under the street to overflow and to overflow the whole neighbourhood, basically.

DMC: Did you get any kind of warnings that this was coming?

AM: No, we did not. When I went to bed on the Tuesday night, there was some forecasting about heavy rainfall. But, of course, we did not grasp what would come and how the… how the consequences of that heavy rainfall would be.

DMC: So what did your street end up looking like after... after this river poured through it?

AM: Yes, after 48 hours, luckily, the... the overflow stopped. And then the whole street was covered in debris, pebbles, the like. And so we had to clean it up, and we're still cleaning up. And, yeah, it... it looks like a riverbed, basically.

DMC: Your neighbourhood, I mean, thankfully for you, hasn't seen the worst of the damage in Germany. Can you describe what you've been seeing in other parts of your country?

AM: Yes. So we were really lucky. Our neighbourhood was lucky. In our city, in Hagen, where I live, there are people who are much worse off -- people who are living in the valley and not hillwards. And the situation in other parts of the country is even worse. So what we see in Rhineland, for example, so many people dead, hundreds missing. It's... it's... it's just devastating. And I can't imagine the amount of damage that has been... been done,

DMC: what are politicians in Germany saying about how the country is going to recover?

AM: Well, there... there has been a visit from the prime minister of North Rhine-Westphalia to my city, Hagen, yesterday. And he's running for chancellor this... this fall. So he has good chances to be elected. He's running against the Green candidate. And, of course, he's now trying to... to integrate this topic into his election campaign. And we will see how that is working out if people are buying it or not because he's a conservative politician and has not put climate change on his schedule that prominently yet. But he has to do now. So it will be interesting to see how politicians will react and how they will put climate change into their... their elections schedule.

DMC: Some politicians in Germany have been very quick to blame climate change. Do you think what's happened is going to have an impact on public opinion in Germany on climate change?

AM: Yes, I think so. But I'm unsure about the amount of change that will really come from that. I think public opinion is because of events like that, extreme weather conditions like that, public opinion is... is changing towards yes, this is connected to climate change. But in the end, it will be interesting to see if that will also show at the polls or if people are changing their opinion but not changing their political opinion.

DMC: What about you? I mean, do you have electricity now? Have you been able to get a decent night's sleep since this flood hit?

AM: Yes, electricity was turned off because of safety reasons for 24 hours, but now it's back. In the first night, sleep was a bit tough. But now that everything is going back to... I don't want to say normal, but since the water's gone away, we're very relieved.

DMC: Anja, I'm glad you're safe and thank you very much for telling us about it.

AM: You're welcome.

DMC: Take care.

CH: Anja Menzel is a resident of Hagen, Germany. That's where we reached her. You can find more on this story, including some of the photos Ms. Menzel took, on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: acoustic guitar]

Paralyzed Brain Study

Guest: Dr. Edward Chang

CH: A man in California has been paralyzed for 15 years, in a way that makes it impossible for him to speak. But now, Edward Chang has enabled that man to simply think of certain words -- and have them appear on a computer screen. Dr. Chang is a neurosurgeon and a professor of medicine at the University of California San Francisco. His team's research findings are published in this week's edition of the New England Journal of Medicine. We reached Dr. Edward Chang in San Francisco.

DMC: Dr. Chang, the man who was part of your research, he hasn't spoken a word for years. What was it like watching his thoughts on a computer screen?

EDWARD CHANG: I think the whole experience has been incredible. We went into this with a lot of hope but not a lot of certainty that it would work, and that's why this is part of research. And that certainly was at the forefront of our... of our minds, which was after not speaking for 15 years, would he still be able to revive and conjure these dormant signals of the brain that are important for speaking? And we found out that they are there and he could do that.

DMC: What were those first words that he spoke?

ED: the sentence: My family is outside.

DMC: And why that sentence?

ED: To be honest, he was a little bit random. A lot of this was done with a controlled set of words. Our project only consisted in its first form with a 50-word vocabulary. And in the beginning, we really just trained him to follow and try to speak sentences that we instructed him to say only because we needed to know what was the ground truth, to be able to verify if he was accurate or not. And then, in other forms of experiment trial, he was able to make, you know, more free form sentences from those 50 words.

DMC: When he was able to make a free-form sentence, did you get any sense from him about what it was like to be able to make words appear on the screen?

ED: Well, I think it was deeply satisfying. In some cases, thrilling. For someone who hasn't been able to speak, you know, it's a really devastating situation to be in, to lose the ability to communicate in a way that most of us take for granted. And so he was very, very thrilled to be able to do that for the first time.

DMC: Your team has been at this for years. How does it work?

ED: Well, a lot of this leverages over a decade's worth of research that we've done on this particular part of the brain called the sensory-motor cortex that controls the muscles of our vocal tract. And the vocal tract consists of our lips, the jaw, the tongue larynx and the brain controls the muscles to give rise to words when we speak. And so, the device that we developed actually involves a thin array. An electrode array of 128 electrodes are placed over this part of the brain surgically. It's about a little bit smaller than the size of a credit card to cover this entire area. And it's placed entirely on the brain surface. It's not going into the brain. It's just right laying on the top of the surface. And it's connected to a port that allows us to connect the device to a computer. And so, like I mentioned before, you know, we've been studying this area intensely for a decade, and we've learned a lot, actually, about how brain activity in this particular part corresponds to movements in the vocal tract. And I think one of the big questions was whether or not they would still be intact after so many years of not speaking. And then number two is if we would actually be able to translate those into full words.

DMC: There have been, over the past few years, mind-controlled prosthetics. Like you can... you can move a robotic arm with your brain. How much more difficult was it to try to get words using your brain?

ED: Well, a lot of the work that we've done heavily, heavily relies on previous work, for example, the recorded brain activity from the part of the brain that controls our arm and hand, for example. And that's been used to move things like computer cursors or a robotic arm. And most recently, there's been some really amazing demonstrations from our colleagues to... to do typing letter by letter. Our focus was primarily on decoding fULL words. And one of the reasons why we think that's important is because it's how we speak. It's how we think in terms of communicating. And, you know, the hope is that in the future that people will have the option to do either, not one or the other, but have access, you know, ways to actually communicate full words as well as spell things out.

DMC: What is your end goal with the project?

ED: The end goal is really to make something that is going to be clinically reliable and useful, and robust for people who need it the most. It's a huge unmet need. There are devices out there that help people interpret that using residual eye movements. But going directly to the brain may have some additional advantages in terms of speed and accuracy, and reliability. So it's something that we're looking at very closely, and we're hopeful that this will be an option for people in the future.

DMC: How... how fast was he able to generate words after he thought them?

ED: Every word was, on average, produced about every four seconds. So that... that resulted in something like 15 to 18 words per minute. His normal way of communicating with assist devices is about five words per minute. So it's definitely an improvement, though, with a limited vocabulary of 50 words. So the things that we're working on are expanding that vocabulary and making it more accurate, making it faster.

DMC: It does sound a little bit sci-fi, Dr. Chang. And I wonder, what would you say to people who might be a bit nervous that this kind of technology might make it possible for whoever is going to be controlling it to be able to essentially read our minds?

ED: Well, I think it's something that we should have a conversation about. We should really start thinking very carefully about what the implications of what that might look like. Admittedly, we're nowhere near that in terms of the science and the engineering to really know how to do that. Like I mentioned before, this is a brain area that we understand reasonably well after a decade's worth of research from our group and many others that have contributed to that knowledge. I think, you know, our thoughts and feelings are much, much more complex in terms of how the brain processes that. I haven't seen clear evidence that pure mind-reading or thought reading is even possible right now. But at the same time, I don't want to rule out that it's impossible. So I think it is worth, you know, having conversations about that just so that we're prepared when that time comes.

DMC: Dr. Chang, thanks so much for telling us about it.

ED: Absolutely. Thank you.

DMC: Take care.

CH: Dr. Edward Chang is a neurosurgeon and a professor of medicine at the University of California San Francisco. We reached him in San Francisco.

[music: fiddle!]

Re-goating Lottery

CH: Goats are great. But goats are annoying. They have eyes with creepily rectangular pupils. They have trouble distinguishing between edible and inedible, so they decide everything's edible. And, unfortunately for anyone who picks one up hitch-hiking, they wear their own urine as cologne. So it's no wonder Puʻuhonua o Honaunau National Historical Park in Hawaii wants its goats gone. The park is overrun. And the herds are not only hurting the ecosystem, they are disrupting what's meant to be a sacred and non-goaty refuge. So the park is de-goating by re-goating. The plan is to capture about 700 goats, and release them into the custody of anyone who can safely take them. Well, not just anyone: if you want to a free goat, you'll have to apply. And then you'll have to get lucky in the random goat lottery to be held later this month. Because, I guess, park officials are expecting a rush on the invasive goats that they are in a rush to get rid of. Now, it's not clear if there are any rules about what you do with the free goats once they've been won. But it is clear that winners can't be choosers. Applicants can take up to 50 goats but they cannot pick which goats they'll be taking home. Officials are stressing that winners will, quote, "receive animals as they are sent down the chute." And if that gets your goat -- Well, I guess you don't get a goat.

[music: electronic]

Part 2: The Loneliest Whale

The Loneliest Whale

Guest: Josh Zeman

SOUNDCLIP

[sound: whale calls]

CH: Those are -- unmistakably -- whale sounds. The kind of sounds that inspired a generation of activists to protest commercial whale hunting -- and to ponder what humans might have in common with the planet's largest creatures. They are undeniably moving. And oddly familiar. And altogether unlike this sound:

SOUNDCLIP

[sound: also whale sounds]

CH: Now, that, believe it or not, is also a whale sound. The sound of a very specific animal known as the 52 Hertz Whale. And also: the world's loneliest whale. A giant creature that has captured people's imaginations ever since its distinct and distressingly unanswered call was first detected. And filmmaker Josh Zeman recently set out to find it. His efforts are chronicled in the new documentary "The Loneliest Whale: The Search for 52," which is available on digital and on-demand platforms starting today. We reached Josh Zeman ahead of its release in Salisbury, Connecticut.

DMC: Josh, the documentary begins. You walk into your... your quiet apartment, flip on the computer and just go down a rabbit hole looking for stories about the 52 Hertz Whale. Why did you get so consumed by finding it?

JOSH ZEMAN: [laughing] That... you know... that's a good question. You know, it really started with people's reactions to this story. You know, I'm a filmmaker. I pitch a lot of stories. And, you know, when I started to talk about this story about this, you know, whale that theoretically swims through the ocean calling out and never receives a response, people's reactions were so profound. You know, people would cry or they would... their face would go pale, or they would grab my arm and want to know why, or they get goosebumps. And so I was just really... I... it was this mystery of why people had this profound reaction to this story. You know, was it the fact that, you know, loneliness is... is, you know, was this kind of human being's existential crisis, you know, looking back at them via the mirror of this whale, you know, was it that and, you know, our fear that everybody doesn't want to die alone? Or was it something more? You know, was it the idea that that was in the presence of this whale? And, you know, of course, is it whales are so big and when we're, you know, in front of them, we suddenly become humbled? Is it the idea that whales, theoretically, are sentient and have this kind of otherworldly presence? You know, what was it about this story? And I just kept digging more and more. And that's when I found there was a whole nother part of it, which is the science of ocean sound and whale song. So it was just... it kind of one thing led to another. And it was such a fascinating story. And we kept saying the whole time, like, well, do you think we can go find this whale, [laughing] you know? And, you know, some people said, well, you know, it's nearly impossible. And that's when I think we said, great, let's try to do that.

DMC: I want to ask you about sentience in particular. But before we do that, let's get into the back story. I mean, the 52 Hertz Whale, its calls were were first detected by the U.S. Navy. And I want to play you a clip of a retired U.S. Navy chief, Joseph George, who speak to in the documentary. Here's Mr. George.

SOUNDCLIP

JOSEPH GEORGE: When we first detected 52 was back in 89. He is just like a regular bluefin whale. But the frequency he was, you know, vocalising at was at the 52 hertz level and not, you know, down around 20 hertz. Now, we've seen that signal a couple of times and we dismissed it as being another source.

JZ: So what do you think it was before you realized it was a whale?

JG: That I can’t tell you.

JZ: So something classified?

JG: Something mechanical. That’s it.

DMC: So what were some of the theories [JZ laughs] that had been developed over the years to explain that pretty strange sound?

JZ: They thought it was a Chinese submarine [laughing] for many years. You know, this was... reminded, you know, this was a bunch of Navy guys basically listening for sounds in the ocean. And, you know, this system was developed during the Cold War. It's a bunch of microphones all around the oceans. And these guys sit there and they listen for signatures of submarines and ships. And, you know, that's what they're doing. They're playing hide and seek underwater. And, you know, when the Berlin Wall fell, they turned the system over to scientists and said, well, you can use this to listen to the amount of whale calls. And with that, you can kind of study whale populations. And that's when they heard this very weird 52 hertz frequency. Again, as he said, it wasn't like anything else. And for a while there, some of the, you know, commondants and things were saying, oh, it must be a foreign submarine. That's when a researcher from WHOI said, no, no, no, His name is Dr. William Watkins, he says, I think it's a whale. And they said, but it doesn't sound like any other whale. And he says his idea was probably it was a hybrid whale, a cross between a blue and a fin and had some kind of anomalies. And that's why it was making this 52 hertz sound.

DMC: And the really incredible thing that you talk about in the documentary is that Watkins speculated that it was a unique sound. This was... this was one whale, a solitary whale.

JZ: You know, it was... nobody had ever heard that sound ever in recorded history. So, you know, and there's all these mysterious sounds that happen in the ocean. One of them is called The Bloop. That was another sound that they were hearing, you know? And they've... they discovered that... that was the... the... the kind of smashing of... of icebergs eventually halfway around the world. And by the time it got to the listening devices, it sounded like a bloop. [laughing]

DMC: As a result of Watkins' research, there's all this speculation in the scientific community whether or not this is a whale and whether it's a solitary whale. How did people react when you said, I want to go look for this thing?

JZ: [laughing] They kind of laughed me out of the room. [laughing] You know, the idea of going out and trying to find one whale in an entire ocean in retrospect is completely ridiculous. I was so naive going in and asking, but then I kept coming back and asking them over and over again, and I said, well, you know, they said, well, look, it's going to take a lot of money. And I said, well, what if I could get the money? And then that kind of got them into thinking. And that got their kind of scientific mystery sense going. And they were like, OK, well, let's see, how would we find this thing? You know, could we use the SOSUS system? Could we somehow convince the Navy to listen for it? Or what would we do to find it? And that became [sigh] an interesting four... four-year lead up to actually going on the expedition was just trying to prove where was 52 and if he was even alive?

DMC: And you're trying to... to corral all these scientists and the latest in terms of scientific equipment to discover, to see if you can find the whale. What was it like for you after four years to get confirmation that this expedition was going to go ahead?

JZ: It was amazing. There had been many times that I... we... literally we were going to cut big. There's a… you know, there's a scene in the film where one of the scientists, you know, she's been listening via the SOSUS data, this classified data, and she has clearance where she's allowed to basically go in there and use an algorithm to see if she can hear 52 throughout the world. And she can't. And she says, you know, she doesn't even know if it's alive. And she says, I... you know, I don't think it's alive. Well, she didn't know it, but literally a week before, we had just completed one of the most successful Kickstarter campaigns of all time. We had 400,000 dollars to go out there and try and find this whale. And this scientist is telling me that she doesn't think it's alive anymore. I thought I was going to be... I didn't know what to do. I was trying to figure out how I would give back 400,000 dollars to people. I was going to be the laughing stock of the documentary community [DMC chuckles] and the Kickstarter community. But, you know, lo and behold, we just kind of... they said we're going to keep looking, and we didn't know what to do. And a couple months later, that is when we got word from scientist John Hildebrand down in Scripps that an intern, ironically enough, [chuckling] had been listening and looking out for 52 and had theoretically found him in Santa Barbara, no less. So he was looking for his close up very near L.A.

DMC: So… so figuring that that whale is out there, you did go ahead and fundraise all that money. And I'm guessing that one of the reasons that a lot of people were... were interested in your project is that idea that this whale is lonely. It's by itself. And you mentioned that off the top. You know, whether or not this... this whale is lonely and you spoke with some experts about that. Let's have a listen to what a few of them had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

MAN: Whales, at least from a biological perspective, as much as we can tell, have complex behaviours. They have a lot of parental care. They have large brains. On the other hand, I really wouldn't want to hazard a guess on whether this creature is actually emotionally lonely or not.

MAN #2: Whales are social beings, period. The fact that nobody is responding to him. Absolutely, without a doubt, this whale is lonely. And that's not being anthropomorphic.

DMC: So mentioning anthropomorphism, does our fascination with this whale, with 52, The Loneliest Whale, does it mean that we have to anthropomorphize it?

JZ: That's a great question. Look, we as human beings are very self-centred and very self-involved. And if we want to understand another creature out there, it is probably only through the lens of our own humanity. OK, it is very hard for us to understand other creatures without understanding them in our context. So we assign human characteristics to animals. And, you know, that that upset scientists. But I think it's inevitable, you know? I think that we can't really do it without doing that. And so as a result, in some respects, we might as well just embrace it. Now, that's outside of the fact that is this whale really lonely? Well, you know, I sat there and went to some of the best scientists in the world. And whales do have spindle cells, cells that are found in upper primates and in elephants. And those cells are what creates group behaviour. And from group behaviour becomes things like feelings. But the question is, oh, let's take a whale that spends its whole life in water and whose main sense is not sight, but sound. From an evolutionary scale, knowing that they have a completely different sense. They spend all their time in water, almost in the darkness. How would their development of feelings change from ours? So would they... would loneliness feel like loneliness? You know, would it be happy? Would it be sad? Would it be a negative connotation, a positive connotation? Yes, whales are sentient and they do have this cooperative behaviour. So we can assume that there is some kind of feeling associated with being alone. But the question remains, what does that feeling feel like?

DMC: You're listening to “As It Happens”. And I'm speaking with filmmaker Josh Zeman about his new documentary, :The Loneliest Whale: The Search for 52”. One of the incredible things as I was watching was, again, listening to whale song.

JZ: Right.

DMC: And how captivated we have become because we don't really know what... what it means. And I mean, in general, whale song just got a huge boost when... when Roger Payne released his... his “Songs of the Humpback Whale” album [laughing] back in 1970.

JZ: [chuckling] Yeah.

DMC: Can you give me a sense of... of what impact that had on us in terms of hearing that... that... that whale song for the first time and what we attribute to to whales and how they're communicating?

JZ: That album, “Songs of the Humpback Whale”, it was really a seminal moment in the conservation movement. Now, you may have heard of this album. It came out. It was... it was the songs that this... Roger Payne had put out. It was very popular, like got up to, like, 63 on the charts. And it was one of the most pressed albums ever because it was a kind of floppy version of the album, was included in a Nat Geo magazine. And so it was like one of the most widely printed albums of all time. You know, people would back in the day, they would drop acid and listen to it. [DMC chuckles] And what happened was that people heard these incredible sounds. And, of course, again, humans being so self-involved, they're like, what animal created a sound that's better than anything we could make? And, you know, the answer was obviously whales. And then suddenly, people realized, oh, my God, we can't kill these whales. We have to save them. They make these beautiful sounds. And that led to the creation in part Greenpeace, and then --

DMC: Save The Whales.

JZ: Yeah, I mean, look, if you could believe it, we had hundreds of thousands of people marching on the nation's capital to save whales. And that led to the green movement that we have today, which is ironically the same movement that we are going to need to... to use to fight climate change. So whale song kind of you can see the through line that goes from Whale Song to the green movement of today. And I talked to Roger Payne about it. I said, do you understand how... how incredibly important Save The Whales was? And he’s like, yes, I do understand. Like, I don't make a big deal about it, but I'm like, yeah, that led to where we are today, fighting climate change. And in some ways, it just goes to tell you that we need better... we need to be better storytellers about science. You know, we need stories like “The Lonely Whale”. And we need albums like “Songs of the Humpback Whale” to kind of move us and inspire us to make change, you know, what would have happened if we had better storytellers around the climate change issue? Would we still be where we are now or would we be further along? So I think it's really important to understand this legacy of “Songs of the Humpback Whale. And the idea is, look, we never wanted to save whales until we heard them sing.

DMC: The songs of the whale are so captivating, so mysterious in many ways. One of the tough scenes to watch is as the scientists are trying to track 52, you're sitting there listening to all your sonar equipment, but then tankers are going by and drown out your efforts to try to listen to the whales. Tell us about the challenge that the whales are having with all the tanker traffic?

JZ: Yeah, so it's amazing. Basically, and we don't know it. You know, if you don't live on the ocean, you really don't understand the impact and effect of global shipping. So it was... this was something I had no idea about before I started. You know, I had no idea that 90 per cent of everything I own has come across an ocean on a ship. And shipping traffic has increased dramatically since the 1950s. I mean, you know, we can get... with our consumerism, we can get anything we want. Well, guess what? That has a price. And how do we get that? That comes via ships, these huge, monstrous ships that are so incredibly big. Literally, it blows your mind. I mean, you thought a whale was big. You know, this is now 100 times the size of a whale.

DMC: But how are they impacting the whales?

JZ: What's happening is the rotors and things are creating noise, basically a consistent, constant noise in the ocean. And that prevents the whales from calling out, from communicating, from being able to feed, from being able to hunt, from being able to mate or have cooperative behaviours. Basically, you're drowning out these whales who can only really communicate through sound with other sound. It's... it's like being in a party and you... you know, you're trying to find somebody and have a conversation with somebody and you can't, you know? You're like, I'm sorry it's so loud. Can we go outside and have a real talk and communicate? Well, the problem is is that whales can't go outside. You know, they can't have that communication. They can't have that quiet. And so we are, unfortunately, kind of you know, there's a new threat out there and that is ocean noise pollution. You know, another thing that's really getting them is oil exploration. And what we're doing in oil exploration is we're using these huge sound guns basically to pound for... for oil or to sense for oil and those reverberating across the ocean, again, driving these whales crazy. So this is now a new big issue that's come around.

DMC: So you do head out onto the ocean for seven days on a search for the 52 Hertz Whale. Ultimately, your trip ends with a... with a surprising discovery and not the one you had in mind. And I don't want to give it away. But... but what can you tell our listeners about where this search leaves you?

JZ: You know, [sigh] it's really interesting to go out there and to try and go on a quest. You know, we don't really go on quests anymore, you know? And it's really interesting to go out there and try and find an answer to a question that you don't quite know the answer to. You know, right now, if you ask me any question, I would type... you know, I type it in Google and get an answer. But, you know, here is a mystery. And so it's dangerous to go out there without knowing what's going to happen. You know, when we tried to get the film funded, you know, all these investors would say, well, can you guarantee you can find the whale? And I was like, no, that's the whole point. This is a real quest, an honest to goodness mystery. And so was I prepared that we wouldn't find the whale? Sure. Was I prepared that we might find the whale? You know, was I prepared for what we did find? Not at all. You know, I... they told me we wouldn't find the whale many times, and they said, look, you got to be prepared because, you know, after the seven days, you may not find it. And I had steeled myself, but I was not prepared for what we had found at all.

DMC: What about whales in general? I mean, you... you spend an awful lot of time with them, and I imagine that never grows old. Are you going to keep on?

JZ: Absolutely. There's so many mysteries in the ocean. You know, ironically, you know, I had... guess I first got involved in this whale because I'd gone through a break-up. And at the end of this journey, I can actually say that looking for this whale has made me a better human being. You know, one of the themes in the film is the idea that if we want to be better human beings, if we want to be more interconnected and if we want to be better stewards of this world, then the goal, the trick, is to listen. And that's also the trick to never being lonely is to learn how to listen. Because if you can listen, you will always connect with people. And so I learned to listen. And I hope that everybody else learns that same lesson as well. Because it's an important one.

DMC: Josh, enjoyed listening and watching your documentary. Thanks so much for joining us.

JZ: Thanks for having me.

CH: Josh Zeman is a filmmaker and producer of the new documentary, "The Loneliest Whale: The Search for 52". The film is available on digital and on-demand platforms starting today. For more on this story, visit our website at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

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July 16, 2021 Episode Transcript

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