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The AIH Transcript for June 30, 2021

Hosts: Nil Koksal and Chris Howden

Prologue

NIL KOKSAL: Hello, I’m Nil Koksal, sitting in for Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is “As It Happens”.

[music: theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Well, sir, how would you describe the situation in BC right now.

GUEST: Dire. It really feels, from my perspective, that our emergency response system and... and that into the health care system has collapsed and its cost it seems like it's probably about hundreds of lives by the time they tally it up. And it's been really hard on frontline health care staff and everybody with BC Ambulance, certainly.

NK: Police in Vancouver say at this point they've responded to 98 sudden deaths in the Metro Vancouver area since this heavy, heavy heat set in. You think that number is going to double, triple?

GUEST: I would imagine I don't have any numbers in front of me. I'm not a numbers person. I'm one of the person... people on the road. Fortunately, I haven't responded to any of those myself. But the... what you hear through the community of paramedics at the hospitals and from one another out and about is that it's a regular thing that's been happening over the last few days. And we've all been waiting for some kind of response from... whether it's from BC Ambulance or from the premier or from the Ministry of Health. And it seems like it's been really hard to not have really any response whatsoever.

NK: You worked the night shifts, as I understand it, over the weekend. What did you see?

GUEST: Just a queue of calls holding. I work in an outlying community from the... in the Lower Mainland, getting sent down there to do calls for elderly people that can't help themselves. And these are calls that have been holding for five or six hours. And when people of that age are sitting at their body, temperatures are up near 40 degrees or higher, it's a... it's a ticking clock. And these are, from what I've heard, a lot... so many of them are preventable. And we go to the calls and then get stuck waiting at the hospital. You know, if you're able to help one patient, then you're stuck waiting because there's nowhere to hand that patient off. And so then you're off the road for several hours while you wait for the hospital to accept care. And it just seemed woefully inadequate when... when this has been known about for so long. I think what we'll end up seeing as this is probably one of the deadliest natural disasters in probably BC history and might turn out to be in Canadian history.

NK: What kind of stress was the system under before this? You mentioned a couple of times now that you'd been predicting this morning of failures in the system or holes in the system.

GUEST: Well, we've been having chronic staff shortages in the Lower Mainland and throughout BC Ambulance. It's hard to staff our ambulance efficiently. Our call volumes have been really high. And it seems routinely, even prior to the heatwave we've had... we've been going down and responding to calls. These are not just routine, you know, low acuity calls. Sometimes, they're high acuity calls that have been sitting for sometimes hours. I've responded to calls that have been sitting for six hours.

NK: Six hours on the line at any time is staggering, let alone during a heat wave like this.

GUEST: Yeah, I've heard I've heard of calls holding for 11 hours. I mean, I know I saw our union president, Troy Clifford, said I believe up to two hours, but I've heard of people waiting just to get through to 9-1-1. You know, people have been encouraged, from what I've heard, to... to just if you want your family members to live, you're going to have to load them up yourself. And I've seen the fire department -- Vancouver Fire -- has loaded people up and brought them to the hospital themselves. It's a practice that they normally would never engage in and... and don't... it's not what they're supposed to do, but it's the only option. It's really hard because every paramedic I know does it because they want to help people. And when you can't help, and you hear what's happening, it... it breaks you a little bit inside. And you... you don't want to go in the next day. But, you know, if you don't, that's just one less resource, and it makes the problem worse. And we've been up against that challenge for so long that it feels like, OK, this is how it looks when the system collapses.

NK: You mentioned the lack of... of official statements, the kind of statements you'd like to... to see and hear. When asked about the fatalities, BC Premier John Horgan initially said citizens have a, quote, matter of personal responsibility. And that, quote, fatalities are a fact of life. He did, we need to mention, walk back those comments on Twitter. How do you respond, though, to what you've heard so far?

GUEST: Well, I'm glad that he walked back those comments. I have been a part of the health care system for a long time, and I was very happy with how they managed COVID-19. And then to... I listened to those comments this morning, and I cried because it… [voice breaking] so angering to... to have people say, and to have your leader say, this just happens, and people need to take responsibility. And... and to suggest that, well, you need to go check on your people. The people who are dying are often people who had people looking out for them. And they did the thing that they're supposed to do. We're told if someone needs help, call 9-1-1, and we're coming. And that's what they did, and they died anyways. And so it really hurts to not just own it and say, wow, we messed up, and we need to treat this like the disaster it was, and we need to fix the system that allowed this to happen.

NK: We're protecting your identity because you're worried about reprisals potentially at work. But you did want to come forward. You felt it was important to speak out.

GUEST: Everybody needs to know about this because it's a problem. People are at home thinking if something bad happens, I'll call 9-1-1, and help will be on the way. And when that isn't true, they need to know about it. They need to know that if you need to get to a hospital, you're going to have to do it yourself. And it breaks my heart to say that.

NK: I can hear how much you care about your job in your voice and what you've said, but also that the fatigue and the sadness. Do you have help? Do you have someone looking out for you or someone you can lean on?

GUEST: Yeah, I have an amazingly supportive partner. I look out for my mental health. I do the things that I need to do to recharge. But it seems it's been really difficult over the last few days, and it might take a little bit of putting myself first to be able to feel that the last few days are going to be behind me.

NK: I know you have to get back on the road. I hope there is a break someday soon, but we thank you so much for your time.

GUEST: You're most welcome. You're most welcome. Thank you for talking to me today.

NK: Thank you.

CH: That was a paramedic who works on the Lower Mainland of BC. We're protecting his identity because he fears he could lose his job for speaking out. Late today, the public safety minister said the Ministry of Health recently hired 200 additional ambulance paramedics, and will hire more this summer. He also said they've invested significant money and resources to address staff shortages. We contacted BC's Emergency Health Services for comment but did not hear back by the time we went to air.

[music: sombre guitar]

Lower Kootenay Band Demands Justice

CH: A chief in BC's Southern Interior is demanding justice tonight. Jason Louie is the Chief of the Lower Kootenay Band, which is a member of the Ktunaxa Nation. Today, the Nation announced that it had located 182 unmarked graves near another former residential school. Between 1912 and the early '70s, the Canadian government ordered members of the Ktunaxa Nation to send their children to St. Eugene's Mission School -- which was operated by the Catholic Church. There have now been more than a thousand undocumented burials found at or near three former residential schools. Chief Louie said the first discovery, last month in Kamloops, was difficult -- but this one was far more personal.

SOUNDCLIP

JASON LOUIE: They're my relatives. They're people from my community that went to that school, and some of them lost their lives because they were Indigenous. And, you know, let's call this what it is. It's a mass murder of Indigenous people. The Nazis were held accountable for their war crimes. And I see no difference in locating the priests and nuns and the brothers that are responsible for this mass murder to be held accountable for their part in this attempt of genocide on Indigenous people. So if there are living priests, nuns and staff that were... had a hand in this, then find them and let... to address this happened.. to justice, that the legal system holds them accountable for their acts of murder. Their acts of homicide.

SARAH PENTON: And how… how does this move forward?

JL: Well, we can start from the top down with the prime minister, instead of just getting on TV and radio and saying sorry, that he steps up enough with the statements of thoughts and prayers. Racism is alive and well in the political system of this government. Saying sorry isn't enough, especially when we're talking about the numbers that we're dealing with. That we were robbed of future elders, those people, if they had not... those children, if they had not passed away, could have been elders and teachers in our communities, the keepers of knowledge. And we have so few elders right now that it's just... it's devastating.

SARAH PENTON: What are you hearing from your own community today?

JL: Well, we had a strategy is we contacted the survivors in our community before this became public just so it wouldn't be such a blindside for them. It doesn't take away the pain at all. But at the very least, we wanted to give them the respect that they deserve. So really, my priority -- and the priority of the Lower Kootenay Band leadership -- is ensuring that our survivors are OK. And trying our best to educate the young people. Like, how do you even begin to explain what happened to a young child? So really, our community was top priority in this.

CH: That was Jason Louie, chief of the Lower Kootenay Band, speaking to the CBC's Sarah Penton. The band is a member of the Ktunaxa Nation, which announced today that ground-penetrating radar had revealed 182 unmarked graves near St. Eugene's Mission School in BC's Southern Interior.

[music: indie rock]

Stolen Picasso Found

Guest: Stelios Garipis

CH: Nine years ago, a thief executed a nearly flawless robbery at Greece's National Gallery. And he didn't just get some keychains from the gift shop, either: he somehow escaped with a Picasso painting called "The Head of a Woman" -- and a painting by Mondrian as well. Then, like any fancy art thief, he went underground. But yesterday, police announced that they'd dug him up and arrested him. And recovered the missing paintings. Stelios Garipis is an art advisor to auction houses and museums in Athens. We reached him today in Dubrovnik, Croatia.

NK: Mr. Garipis, is relief the right word to describe how people, how you, are feeling now that the Picasso and the Mondrian have been recovered?

STELIOS GARIPIS: Me personally, since I am a collector and an art enthusiast, I was thrilled to share these paintings were found. And soon, they will be exposed to the National Gallery. But concerning the Picasso painting, it was a national day of joy because face... Picasso painting was a personal gift to the Greek people. And Picasso, after World War 2, got to offer these paintings to Greek people as recognition for their resistance to the Nazis forces. That's why it was a painting with not only our artistic value but also a real historic and national value.

NK: So much meaning within that frame. Describe for our listeners what people will see when that Picasso is hanging again? Describe the painting for us?

SG: The painting is one of Picasso's female portraits that he started painting after 1926. It's an abstract female portrait with his lines. It's something bizarre in presenting females with lines and say something extraterrestrial.

NK : The heist itself, the robbery. Seven minutes to carry out. How did the robbery unfold? If you could take us back to nine years ago?

SG: We had seen from the National Gallery security cameras, there were two robbers that entered the building. The guards said that they acted very fast. They grabbed three paintings, and they got out. Now, the police found a man who was allegedly the one robber, and according to his statements, was a one-man show. He entered the building alone. He has stolen the paintings. And for nine years, he was trying to do what he's going to do with these paintings. He didn't have, according to his statement, an objective. He didn't know what to do with these paintings. He just had these paintings in his... at his house.

NK: He said he was an art lover, as I understand it?

SG: He's not lover in a professional way. According to his Twitter account that we started following, he was following all auction houses. He was following all the litigations concerning stolen artworks. And he was an art dealer, something like that. He was presented as an art dealer. Now, according to his defence, he was a construction worker. But no one believes this.

NK: And you mentioned this in describing how the robbery went down. He staked out the facility for a month. He watched what the guards were doing, right? He... he... he was trying to figure out the best way to get in.

SG: Yes. According to his statement, he was following the guards at the National Gallery for six months. During that time, the National Gallery had no security at all practically.

NK: There were austerity measures in place because of the financial situation in Greece, right?

SG: It was kind of a consequence of the financial crisis after 2011. There were no guards. They could not afford the new security facilities. Now, the situation is better. We have a new building for the National Gallery. It was inaugurated last March. So now, we can say that we have security measures.

NK: How did police finally figure out who they believe had these... these paintings? How did police get to the bottom of the case?

SG: We still don't know since the inquiry is still secret. We don't know how they managed to arrest him a few hours before flying to Amsterdam. He was about to fly to Amsterdam, and he was arrested, and he indicated to the policeman the place where he had hidden the two of the stolen paintings because, as he said, he was embarrassed after a newspaper article concerning the case last February.

NK: Why would he be embarrassed? Was he embarrassed, or was he worried that they were going to find him.

SG: Yes, he thought that… he had this suspicion he thought that the police was following him. So, that was his impression. Because after a period of nine years, there were many articles saying that police had some indications police had found something. So he was really embarrassed, and he started making one move after the other. And that's how the police found him.

NK: It was hanging in his home. But where did they find it?

SG: They found them in a protected shelter that he created nearby his house. It was a stream in the forest. And he has thrown them there. As he said, he was hoping someone to... to find them and give them to... to the police. But finally, he was the one who gave them to the policeman.

NK: What, finally, is it going to feel like for you, Mr. Garipis, to.. to see the Picasso hanging, as it should, inside the gallery?

SG: It will be a very big relief for me. When I heard the news, I started shouting in the street. I was about to cry.

NK: Well, Mr. Garipis, thank you for your time.

SG: Thank you for your interest for such a significant matter.

NK: Yeah, I can hear the excitement and the happiness in your voice. Thanks again.

SG: Yes, bye.

NK: Bye-bye.

CH: Stelios Garipis is an art advisor to auction houses and museums in Athens, Greece -- but today, we reached him in Dubrovnik, Croatia. And you can find more on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: bright piano]

C6 Bill

Guest: Marilou McPhedran

CH: A bill banning so-called "conversion therapy" seems unlikely to survive. Bill C6 would effectively prohibit the dangerous practice -- which falsely claims to change a person's sexual orientation or their gender identity or expression. But the bill didn't pass the Senate before the upper chamber rose for the summer last night. Which means that if the Prime Minister calls an election this summer, the bill will die. That may be good news for the Conservative Senators who raised concerns about the bill's impact on religious freedom. But not for Independent Senator Marilou McPhedran -- who says that, for her, Bill C6 is personal. We reached Senator McPhedran in Winnipeg.

NK: Senator McPhedran, you've called this bill an act of love. Why?

MARILOU MCPHEDRAN: Well, primarily because of the experience within my own family with my firstborn, who gave their permission for me to speak about the experience in our family. And I realized in analyzing as a lawyer the nature of the act. I had strongly supported it when it was initially introduced by a retired senator who I know. And I strongly supported it with Senator Cormier as the co-sponsor in the Senate. And I was really pleased when the government of Canada decided to step up and take it from being a private member's bill to being a government bill.

NK: We'll talk about some of the opposing opinions on the bill. But I do want to go back to what you said about your firstborn and their experience. What impact did those sessions, I guess we can call them, have?

MM: Hmm. Well, you know, Nil, I was a little taken by surprise in this whole debate because I'd got John's permission, but we never talked about it. And it isn't something that actually we've talked about very much. We dealt with it at a young age. I had to initiate legal proceedings in order to stop it. And it was only after I started to speak in the Senate that I realized that I just was overcome by both a sense of grief and a sense of shame as a mother that I hadn't been able to spot it and... and... and stop it sooner. And it's unquestionably the most emotional speech I've ever made as a senator. And it was only after that I had a chance to really debrief. And John explained to me that really the impact seemed to be much greater for me in terms of a residue, if you will, of... of traumatic feelings, that I guess what happened was it got stopped in time. And there have been many, many other influences and experiences since then. And so, in their assessment, the long-term damage is not substantial, if at all.

NK: You didn't know it was happening?

MM: Initially, no. No, I just heard about it. We were in the midst of a divorce, and I heard... I heard John mention something. And I... so then I asked a few questions, and it dawned on me what was happening. I didn't even know. I mean, we're... you know, we're talking the 1980s. I didn't even know that such clinics existed. So when I started to research, I... I was just... I mean, as a human rights lawyer, I was shocked that this was seen as clinical and acceptable.

NK: What do you say to the Conservative leader in the Senate, Don Plett, for example, when he says that Conservatives do support a ban on, quote, abusive or coercive conversion therapy, but that the law has to recognize... again, these are his words, quote, the practice of homosexuality is forbidden in some faiths. What's your response to his words?

MM: Well, this is the dilemma of a society like Canada, which is a constitutional democracy predicated on a constitution that has as its core equality. And so what we're facing is always in Canada with human rights, a balancing act. And I would say to my colleagues like Senator Platt that they need to understand more clearly what the bill does and does not do. This is addressed to practice treatment or services that are geared to changing a person's sexual orientation to heterosexual or changing a person's gender identity or gender expression to CIS gender or to stay with CIS gender. And so, in the realm of one's religion or private discussions between members of a family, that's still open with this bill. This bill is focused on actual practice, treatment or service. And I listened very closely to my colleague from Manitoba, and I know that it was a matter -- and is a matter -- of great concern and intense feelings for him. And I respect his right to follow his religious beliefs. But I want to come to what is the function of criminal law in a society like ours. It is to name harmful practices. And they really can't point to research -- to evidence -- that would substantiate that conversion therapy is anything but a harmful practice. So this seems to me to be one of those times when we do need as a society to follow the charter to address the harm that has been done to many, many people and families and communities because when this kind of repression is endorsed not only in churches, but in some churches, but also in law and practice in our society, the deficits to our whole society are huge. So this is a bill. It is an act of love for people being able to love who they love. And for people to be able to be who they are.

NK: Senator McPhedran, thank you very much for your time.

MM: Thank you, Nil, for the interest. Much appreciated. And you stay safe.

CH: Marilou McPhedran is an Independent Senator. She spoke to us from Winnipeg.

[music: industrial]

Part 2: Canada Day Cancel, Miami Search and Rescue

Canada Day Cancel

Guest: Stephanie Sanders

CH: Ordinarily, Stephanie Sanders and her colleagues would be bracing for a very busy day tomorrow. Ms. Sanders is a bartender in downtown Ottawa. And with Ontario moving into Stage 2 of its reopening, patios there are likely to be packed for the Canada Day holiday. But the patio at The Gilmour, where Stephanie works, will be empty. In fact, the whole bar will remain closed. It's how business owners in Ottawa are responding to calls to cancel Canada Day celebrations this year -- out of respect for Indigenous communities. Communities like the one Ms. Sanders is a part of. She's a member of the Curve Lake Ojibwe First Nation. We reached her today in Silver Lake, Ontario.

NK: Stephanie, what message is The Gilmour hoping to send keeping its doors closed tomorrow?

STEPHANIE SAUNDERS: So, we're trying to say that. So, normally Canada Day is a day of celebration. And by closing our doors, acknowledging that we don't want tomorrow to be a day of celebration, rather a day of reflection and acknowledgement of the tragedy that we are learning about, and that we need to take some time to really reflect and think about what that means and how that is going to impact us as Canadians in the future?

NK: And as I understand it, Matthew Tweedy, the owner of The Gilmour, this closure was his idea. And also interesting because you only just opened for the first time a couple of weeks ago?

SS: Yeah, it was a really tough call for him to make. And I'm really proud to be a part of a business that's willing to make a little bit of a self-sacrifice in order to acknowledge the news and everything, like, everything that we're discovering today. And I'm really proud of him for... for taking that and making that decision.

NK: What are you hearing from other people? What do you... what do you think this Canada Day is going to be like?

SS: I'm hearing a lot of people acknowledging the fact that it is not going to be a day of celebration. A lot of the regulars that I've spoken to and the people that I've been serving this week have been really proud and, like, on board with the decision for The Gilmour. And people want to be out and want to be in the protest and want to be acknowledging the Indigenous community and the tragedy that they're going through right now. So I think it's going to be a... a different atmosphere, a different mood in the city tomorrow. And I'm really interested to see what exactly becomes of it.

NK: It's also a significant day -- this Canada Day -- for you personally. I understand you just got your status card last week?

SS: I did, yes. I've been trying to get my status card for 11 years.

NK: Eleven years?!

SS: And... yes. Yeah, I was 17 when my mom and I started the process.

NK: Why did it take so long?

SS: Because of... there was complications with information in my family tree. There were barriers with the legislation and who qualified and who didn't qualify for status, things like that. And so my mom spent a lot of time over the last 10 years researching and finding more information on my family and getting the proper documentation and resubmitting applications and different paperwork and stuff like that. It was a really difficult process.

NK: And why was it so important for you to start that process, as difficult as it was, and finally get your card?

SS: Well, my mom has hers, and so I felt that she had this connection to the Indigenous community that I just didn't have. And I think that's a barrier that I put up myself. But it was just, you know, I've been... I've been always proud to say I'm an Indigenous woman. I just never understood exactly the weight of that and what that meant. And I always sort of felt that I couldn't quite claim that if I didn't have my status card. But that's ironic because it's the government who's acknowledging my heritage, but it's the same government that was trying to destroy my heritage. So it's just such a conflict for me right now to finally get this piece of paper that I've been wanting my... my entire adult life and then have it coincide with the discovery of... of unmarked graves across Canada at this point. It's such a heartbreaking scenario I feel that I'm in right now.

NK: Yeah, how are you processing all of that?

SS: Um, I'm... I'm just, you know, I'm just trying to wrap my head around what it means now for me, what I want to do with the fact that I have my status card and how I want to implement change into the world and what I want… like, how my impact on the Indigenous community, how I can impact that now? So I'm just, you know, taking the time to be sad and to grieve the lives of those children that were found. And to be happy that I am an official part of a new Indigenous community that I wasn't, like, officially a part of before. And I'm just trying to understand what that means now and figure out what my next steps are?

NK: Do you have support?

SS: Oh, yes. My... my mom and my family is very supportive. My siblings, I have a sister and a brother who also just received this status card. So the three of us are kind of just taking a breath and trying to understand what we're going to do next. And my mom has… is an amazing woman. She's really doing great things for remote Indigenous communities right now. She has her own business. So I'm really... like, I talk to her lots about the stuff that she's seeing and the feelings that she has when she's living on reserves. It's really... it's been a nice community we've kind of built for each other.

NK: How are you feeling beyond your immediate community and the deeper connections you're making now? How optimistic are you that the conversation happening right across Canada -- long-overdue conversation -- may actually signal a bigger shift?

SS: I think that if change doesn't happen now, there will be a major uproar. I think that the biggest thing that people had was that they just didn't know. We did a great job at hiding our history. You know, the burden of history is very secretive, very hush, hush. They didn't start talking about it in school until the last 10 years. You know, when I was in high school, we didn't talk about it. We didn't talk about residential schools. We didn't talk about what happened. So I think that on top of the new discoveries that are being found, I think that Canada has no choice but to... to fix the problem that they created and to fix what they broke.

NK: And we should tell our listeners, you are a bartender, but you're also starting work as a teacher. So when... when you get back with students in the fall, grade seven and eight, I think you'll be teaching, how are you going to broach this topic?

SS: I'm going to approach it as genuinely as I can. My goal is to educate my students on the burden of history while also acknowledging Indigenous culture and Indigenous heritage. And to give credit to the determination of the generations of indigenous people that fought for our heritage. The only reason I can stand here proudly and say I'm an indigenous woman is because of my predecessors and people who were strong enough to fight for our culture. And I think that as much as it's important to acknowledge the history, that does not define Indigenous culture in Canada. That is a terrible tragedy that has happened. But I want to focus on how successful and how powerful and determined people in Indigenous community are today. And I'm going to really focus on teaching my students to understand the burden of history in order to make change for the future because I think that's what's important now that we as a country, we come together to make a change because it doesn't happen overnight. It happens over generations. Indigenous community talks about the seven generations. And I think it'll be seven generations before those wounds don't hurt so deeply.

NK: Stephanie Sanders, I'm so glad we could speak. Thank you.

SS: Thank you so much for having me.

NK: Take care. You too. Bye-bye.

CH: Stephanie Sanders is an Ojibwe bartender at The Gilmour in Ottawa, which is closing for Canada Day tomorrow. We reached her in Silver Lake, Ontario. We've got more on this story on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: ambient]

Anishnaabe Coach Is Done

CH: Jessica Dumas has been providing Indigenous awareness training for five years. Now, the Anishnaabe woman has decided that she's had enough. Ms. Dumas announced her decision on LinkedIn, after hundreds of graves were found at residential schools in Saskatchewan and BC. In her post she used the words "exhausted" and "overwhelmed". Here is Jessica Dumas explaining what she meant.

SOUNDCLIP

JESSICA DUMAS: When I started, I could see around me in the community other teachers who were angry all the time. [laughing] And I didn't understand why. And I tried to do that work with as much love and care as I possibly could. But the information that you learn is you're going through the training is tragic. And when it's something that's constantly in your face of the pain and the trauma of why some of the situations are the way that they are but it's still happening, it's... that's really difficult. It's really difficult to continue to try to do that in a loving and kind way. So now when I see other people who are doing this work... and there are, I mean, many who are doing it with such care that I can even believe that they're still doing it. But it's like an open wound all the time being ripped open.

MARCY MARKUSA: On the other side of... of that, Jessica, what's been the most challenging barrier for you in getting your message across and getting this education across? Can you share some of that... of that exchange?

JDYeah, some of the challenge is working with a great company, and I've worked with tons and tons of companies and hundreds and hundreds of people in Manitoba, and you you reach a point where you feel like, OK, great, like we've done all the training, we've done all this education and... and people are more informed now. They can make better decisions with everything that they do in their life. And you still meet people who are still debating that this information is actually true. Whether they're in the room or, you know, someone just brand new to the conversation and... and that's exhausting. And so when you have, you know, coverage across the country with unmarked graves and people still doubting that residential schools were not a good place for Indigenous children, I can't be nice about it anymore. [laughing] That's... that's really ultimately the... the thing.

CH: That was the professional speaker and coach Jessica Dumas, who is Anishnaabe, speaking to CBC Manitoba's Marcy Markusa this week, before today's announcement of more unmarked graves found at a third former residential school.

[music: classic rock]

Miami Search and Rescue

Guest: Benjamin Abo

CH: With every hour, and day, that goes by in Surfside, Florida, hope fades that any survivors will be recovered. Today, the death toll rose to 16 people. Officials say 147 people are still missing. The already difficult search-and-rescue job has been complicated by rain, strong winds, and the risk of disturbing the site, causing further collapse. Dr. Benjamin Abo has been working at the site since Thursday. He's embedded with a search-and-rescue team. And while he's not finding signs of life, he's finding signs of lives lived -- stuffed animals, wallets, photographs and clothing. We reached Dr. Benjamin Abo in Surfside, at the scene -- which you'll notice was quite noisy at times.

NK: Well, Dr. Abo, it has now been nearly a week since the collapse. How are the families of the missing coping?

BENJAMIN ABO: This, as to be expected, is extremely tough times. But for the most part, it's extremely painful. I know that though I have some friends that are still currently missing, so I talked to the family of two of them, and they are a little bit more at ease than others but still in a state of shock.

NK: At ease, how?

BA: They know that we're doing everything that we can. And this is exactly what teams like mine are specialized in. And they have been able to see the momentum. They've been able to see the sweat and tears pouring down from us as well. We've gone from a lot of loud outbursts of crying and yelling to a bit more acceptance and thankfulness, but still hope.

NK: And I'm so sorry that you're dealing with... with, you know, friends that are missing still as well.

BA: I appreciate that.

NK: You know, we mentioned in the introduction before our conversation began some of the challenges for the search and rescue mission. Just take us through the kinds of things you've been up against?

BA: So just from the collapse itself, we're through big unknown. There's no textbook that says something's going to fall this way or go this way or suggest from an event like this. You have all these unknowns that are consistently changing. And the only thing that is really static in an event like this is the fact that everything is going to be changing: structural stability, hazzards, electricity, flooding. And when I first got on scene, we were operating in the garage, part of it up past my knees in water, trying to make it safer with electric vehicles in there. You have debris, you have air quality, lack of oxygen. Sometimes, in some places, you have to pump air in and pump air out on top of that fires and hazardous materials and gases that can occur. On top of that, you have weather. It's wet, there’s a soft rain that can sometimes help a little bit with all the dust because we’re moving things. But when it's a torrential downpour, it makes it harder. When the wind is too strong, it limits what equipment we can use. Thunder and lightning, we can't be on the pile and standing in the water trying to do something and risk 60-plus people getting struck by lightning. So that definitely makes it harder. And we have a tropical storm approaching -- that would greatly change things and make it even more difficult as well.

NK: In the middle of all of that, you are finding objects, mementos, things that illustrate the lives of the people.

BA: This is... I've been on a lot of disasters, and this is actually fairly interesting because there's a lot of water damage, flooding or hurricanes torn or burned. And we're actually seeing a lot of pictures and different things that are recognisable. I found wedding pictures from that have in the 70s or 80s. So we have been collecting photographs when we can -- and photo albums, passports, jewellery that's identifiable as well as toys, things, stuffed animals or Hess toy trucks and things like that. It's a lot. It's... it's tough. It's... for me, I've been doing this over 25 years and. It's a process. For me, I process things a little bit now, a little bit later. And I openly talk about everything, so I don't battle anything up. You know, we... no matter what, we have a job to do. And we... I pride myself in the work that the training we've gone through. You hope that you never have to use it. But by golly, if something happens and there's a need, we've got the skills to give people hope. And if we can't do hundreds of rescues like we'd love to -- that might be like in the movies and things like that -- at least we are giving people hope. And that's a big part of what we deliver.

NK: And what has it meant to the families when you... when you give them some of the mementos that you found?

BA: I'm... I'm not sure. I haven't directly given anybody mementos yet. We have been tagging and kind of putting aside certain things. Some of the stuff I've brought over to the memorial from the side of our tent area. I've seen people's reactions, some continued sadness, some a little lighter on the shoulders.

NK: Are there particular items that stand out to you?

BA: There's certain stuffed animals that really stick out to me and certain photo albums. Knowing me, being Jewish and having had a bar mitzvah and singing parts at so many of my friends weddings as an officiant, I see the wedding albums, and I think about those... the times that they've celebrated and the people that are behind those smiles and the pictures. So that really hit. Seeing... I don’t know. There's just a feeling that you get when you see certain types of animals or animation or pictures. There's a face and a soul and a person that I picture.

NK: And it's been reported, you know, that there's been such an outpouring of help in the midst of all of this. You're an example of that as well. But how does that feel to you?

BA: Everything. The little bits, the little donations. I'm supposed to be working at the emergency department. So for my friends to be able to drop what they're doing and take care of the kids so that their spouse can work in the E.R. and cover my shift, I mean, that... that's just as important as physically being here. Not to mention, you know, seeing food donations and things like that for the families. It's just... it's tremendous. It's... especially given all the events that have been going on the past several years and where I really question a lot of humanity. It's very uplifting to see that people can actually be people again to complete strangers.

NK: Dr. Abo, thank you very much for your time.

BA: My pleasure.

CH: Dr. Benjamin Abo is embedded with a search-and-rescue team in Florida at the site of the Surfside condo collapse.

[music: banjo]

Mike Gravel Obit

CH: Mike Gravel was not afraid to ruffle feathers. The former Democratic Senator from Alaska spoke his mind -- even when some would have preferred he didn't. In 1971, he famously read the Pentagon Papers -- the damning secret report on the Vietnam War -- aloud into the Congressional record. And he made two bids for the presidency, as a fringe candidate. Mike Gravel died of myeloma on the weekend. He was 91. During the last presidential election, three teenagers drafted Mr. Gravel to run -- and he let them take over his campaign. He spoke with Carol in 2019 about his long-shot run.

SOUNDCLIP

CAROL OFF: Mr. Gravel, what did you think when these teenagers approached you and asked you to run for president?

MIKE GRAVEL: Well, I turned around and asked them, do you know how old I am? And I said, I'll be 89 in May. And they said, well, that doesn't make any difference. [laughing] So that's when I started laughing. But then I realized as they sent me information of the research that they had done on me, which was awesome! They discovered many things that I had long forgotten. [CO chuckles. MG clears his throat] So I knew that they were serious people.

CO: So the teenagers you're referring to, David Oaks, I believe, 17 years old, Henry Williams, who's 18, Elijah Emery, another 18 year old, and they met at Model United Nations in [chuckling] their high school in New York. But they've convinced you to agree with this, right?

MG: Well, they agree with all of the issues that I'm concerned with.

CO: Like what? What are some of the issues that they sold you on?

MG: Well, one was anti-war, anti American imperialism, the decriminalization of drugs, particularly marijuana and cannabis, as was done in Canada.

CO: So they put together an exploratory committee. They've started to fundraise. And, well... well, do you think you have a shot at becoming President Gravel of the United States?

MG: At my age, that's ridiculous to even entertain the thought.

CO: You had a 2008 campaign. We were watching the campaign ad or one of them that you put, that is quite something. It's you basically looking into the camera for several minutes, and then you turn, you pick up a big rock and throw it in the water and you walk away. And we were commenting that if Andy Warhol were to make campaign ads, they might look like that.

MG: [both chuckles] What it is, is -- and it was not me -- this was done by a couple of kids from Los Angeles who drove up and did this in two or three other ads. And what the ad is, it's a metaphor of life. You focus on what you're going to do. You do it and you throw the rock in the water. It causes ripples in society and then you march off to your demise.

CH: Mike Gravel -- former U.S. Senator and Democratic presidential candidate -- speaking to Carol in March 2019. Mr. Gravel died on the weekend. He was 91.

[music: jazz]

"Lightning"

CH: Jonah Gallas composes for everyone. But today, he's still composing himself. At just eight years old, the Kitchener-Waterloo pianist placed third in the Music for Young Children Festival's awards. As his music teacher Janice Long explained, that means he distinguished himself from among some 37-hundred entrants around the world. Long odds for his appropriately-named composition, "Lightning" -- which he says wasn't even the piece he first planned to submit. But when that one eluded him, this particular tune -- well, struck. Here's Jonah Gallas describing how he felt to win the award.

SOUNDCLIP

JONAH GALLAS: Kind of surprised because I was playing music, and then I kind of was, like, good at it. But not, like, so good. So they were like, you can join the music... and kind of complicated cause it's like this song has five sharps or two flats. And then, later on in the song, is just going up up, stretching up and down, moving your fingers that's the problem.

TIFFANY MONGU: How long did it take for you to compose your song “Lightning”?

JG: It took one day.

TM: It took one day?!

JG Like, I started it at 1:30, and then I just got into the music and then what I heard. And so I’m like, I think this is good enough.

[music: part of “Lightning” By Jonah Gallas/ classical]

CH: Eight -year-old Jonah Gallas, speaking with the CBC's Tiffany Mongu about his award-winning composition "Lightning" -- which was definitely more than "good enough."

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June 30, 2021 Episode Transcript

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