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The Current Transcript for June 30, 2021

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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Reflecting on the meaning of Canada Day in the wake of residential school discoveries

Guests: Faen Johnson, Anthony Wilson-Smith

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VOICE 1: You need to know your darkness, to know your light, the parts of me that remain optimistic lie in the promise of this country.

VOICE 2: I remain a fiercely proud Canadian, and that includes looking at the mistakes, the way we go forward, as proud Canadians as we continue to learn.

MATT GALLOWAY: What does it mean to be Canadian? It's a question that has taken on additional resonance this year in the wake of a reckoning over the horror of residential schools as Canada Day approaches, authors, broadcasters, historians, Olympic heroes on who we are as a nation. Also this morning, ants, like, the insects. You might think the creepy crawlies are just pests. Nope.

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Beautiful, wonderful creatures and cool to watch. Violent. They're cool as well because they can actually float on water and go underwater.

MG: in 30 minutes inside the lucrative citizen science that is teaching us more about this incredible world of ants. We begin, though, with the stories we tell ourselves and others about this country. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. And this is The Current.

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MG: No matter how it's marked, tomorrow is Canada Day, and we've all been having conversations about what to make of this country's past, present and future. They aren't easy or light-hearted, but now, more than ever, they are necessary. And so today and tomorrow on The Current, we're going to be hosting a range of those conversations with politicians, athletes, musicians, new Canadians, writers, all of whom will reflect on what it means to be Canadian. We'll start by going back in time.

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VOICE 1: Separated, the colonies are isolated and weak.

VOICE 2: But united. Just imagine. The East Atlantic provinces, then upper and lower Canada across the prairies, to the Rockies and beyond. A new country made one by a railway from sea to sea. Gentlemen, the time for union is now.

VOICE 1: I ask you to take the dare.

VOICE 3: The Charlottetown Conference at Confederation in Motion. On July 1st, 1867, Sir John A. McDonald became Canada's first prime minister.

MG: That's from a Heritage Minute released in 2014 about the Charlottetown conference that led to the creation of Canada. After the initial discovery of remains at the Kamloops Indian Residential School, The Heritage Minute website took that video down and is currently reworking its portrayal of that part of Canada's history. But this is not the first time the legacy of Sir John A. MacDonald has been re-examined. My next guests both have a passion for telling and retelling the story of this country. Anthony Wilson-Smith is the CEO of Historic A Canada, the makers of Heritage Minutes, and Falen Johnson is the host of unreserved and cohosts the CBC podcast The Secret Life of Canada. Good morning to you both.

FALEN JOHNSON: Good morning, Matt.

ANTHONY WILSON-SMITH: Good morning.

MG: Falen Johnson, when you hear that Heritage Minute, what goes through your mind?

FALEN JOHNSON: Well, we didn't hear the top part where he talks about the champagne, which is the the lovely, light-hearted part of search on a McDonald's, but yeah, it's you know, I know that's a bit of a newer one. And whenever I hear a heritage moment, it kind of does- it takes me back to my childhood a little bit. This one is more recent. And I think in light of recent events and everything that's going on across the country in terms of John A. McDonald and his history and his impact on this country, especially in regards to indigenous people and indigenous children, it sits a little close to the bone. I have to say. It's a little bit too celebratory for my ears in this moment. I think while statues are coming down and a lot of people are questioning who this man was and what his impact was on this country. It it definitely doesn't feel great for me to hear that.

MG: Anthony Wilson-Smith, that is the story of Sajani is the great uniter that four years was ingrained in Canada. If that Heritage Minute were to be made today, do you think that historically would take the same approach in telling his story now?

ANTHONY WILSON-SMITH: Well, here's the thing, Matt. Basically feeling first of all, I agree with you. And if you go to our website right now and go looking for this or John A McDonald or its accompanying one on Georgian-Etienne Cartier is another father of confederation, temporarily, you won't find them. We've pulled them back as a result of some discussion, not pulled them forever because Sir John A.'s is role as the prime father of confederation is well established and and should not be raised. But we're going to accompany that with material from our Canadian cyclopaedia and references right off the top and the intro that make it very clear that while this is one chapter of great achievement, there are other chapters of which people should be aware of the kind of thing that you're talking about. So I guess that's to say, sure, if we would look, this was done before the tide turning book clearing the plains. Certainly done well in advance, of course, of the TRC Commission. It remains historically accurate within the context it discusses. But that's you know, but we I think we all agree that, you know, there's more that needs to be said.

MG: When you said that there's a part of that story that shouldn't be erased. What did you mean by that?

ANTHONY WILSON-SMITH: Well, Sir John A. Is the father of Canada, you know, a father of Canada, like it or not, just as he conducted, you know, policies that were so terrible toward indigenous people, like it or not, to ignore one or to ignore the other is to ignore the full legacy of the person. You can't sort of talk about the creation of Canada as a constitutional entity without factoring Sif John A. a driving force. So in that sense, the minute is accurate. But, you know, we have now reached a point of understanding that I would suggest we certainly here didn't have before in other aspects of his policies and the full effect of those policies.

MG: Falen.

FALEN JOHNSON: I mean, for me, it's the other side of the coin, the thing that I always want to hear in these moments and the thing that we do on the Secret Life of Canada podcast is we try to present the other side of this coin because he is the father- of he's one of the Fathers of Confederation. That is something that, you know, all of us know, most of us know in this country. But when there's this celebration of confederation, the thing that feels left out for me is what it cost, what it cost indigenous people across this country. So to hear fiddles and celebration, to me, those are like daggers in my heart. That's the sound of my people losing their land. That's the sound of us being disenfranchised. And it's a reverberation that continues today. So it salts the wound.

MG: Anthony, how do you go at historic? How do you decide which stories to tell and how those stories would be framed?

ANTHONY WILSON-SMITH: Well, the basic you know, the basic notion is that we look for people and events in history that have it one way or another affected the nature of the country, which we are today. Sometimes good sometimes. But there's a bit of a misconception that I'm not suggesting you have talent, but amongst some on a lot of people at all we do is good natured minutes about what a wonderful place it is that is and actually never been the case and certainly not recently. For example, of the 20 or so we've made since we brought the minutes back in 2012, roughly half deal with racialized people, indigenous people, the gay community, challenges suffered, you know, legislative issues against other things like that. So we look to all that. And I would certainly say that we look with more care. All of our minutes, as you know, as we now make them are told with direct engagement from the community. So an example of that, too, would be we did residential schools working with indigenous owned and operated company in 2015, the terrible story of [unintelligible] and accompanied that also with the treaty process from the indigenous point of view, which was that, you know, one was a written culture, meaning the, you know, the white European one and one was one was oral. And one was really based on an individual freedoms issue, which was the sort of European tradition. And one was based on much more of a of a communal aspect. And that the end outcome was, you know, was not what fairness as it should be

MG: for you failing. I mean, you've hinted at this and it's not to put secret life of Canada next to historic Canada and kind of compare and contrast, or what have you. But when you look at how you frame stories through the podcast, I mean, what is the goal of the secret life of Canada in that way?

FALEN JOHNSON: Well, when Listman born and I, my co-host and cocreator, started the podcast, the thing that we thought of was what did we wish we had learnt in history class? You know, when I was in this is a story I've told frequently. But when I was in grade five, we had a teacher who was telling the students that we were going to be learning indigenous history sorry, native studies. It was native studies at the time. And she stood at the front of the classroom and she told me and I wasn't the only indigenous student in my class. And she said before the white man came here, Indians ran around naked. So this would have been the 90s. So not that long ago. And so that moment has stayed with me my entire life. And I know that there is lots of work to be done in history classes across this country. And so what we want to do is provide a resource, because these things aren't easy to talk about, especially if you're coming through the Canadian education system and you've been told the same stories and the same history over and over, it becomes a gospel. And when that gospel is potentially threatened, it can be scary. It can be disconcerting for some. But we wanted to look in the margins. We wanted to look at the footnotes of history books and see, you know, who were the women, who were the indigenous people, who were the black and brown people who made this country whose backs and labour literally made this country. And so there's no shortage of stories to tell. There are no shortages. There's so many to tell. And I frankly, for me, those dirty parts, those parts that people don't want to look at, the difficult parts are the things that make this place interesting. And if we can address those, then how could we ever move forward?

MG: Anthony Wilson-Smith, when you were growing up, what did you learn about Canadian history?

ANTHONY WILSON-SMITH: Oh, it was history very much so. I went to school in Montreal in the English system, and it was very much an institutional story, meaning confederation, meaning parliament, meaning the various, provincial equivalents and other institutions. And look, let's be clear, too, I mean, it was it would have been predominantly a white male vision of history because that's who wrote the books and that's who for centuries were in the positions that dictated where things were going to go. So, you know, I would certainly say there was no attempt, you know, and also in Quebec, of course, it was covered by the fact that we had the whole interesting Anglo Franco view, which has never agreed on much either.

MG: You say there was no attempt. You know, why do you think that was? Why is it that there was a survey that was done saying that 67 percent of Canadians said they knew little or nothing about residential schools before the discovery of remains at the former residential school in Kamloops? What do you think accounts for that, Anthony?

ANTHONY WILSON-SMITH: Well, I think that so first of all, I think, you know, I often say history, an event only happens once or events only happened once, but can be interpreted in countless different ways or as fallacies can be buried, as a matter of fact, and simply not discussed. So, you know, we go back to the other old saying, which is the history is told by the victors in essence. You tell the stories from our perspective. And I saw an interesting comparison recently, you know, in the U.S., I think it was the Atlantic magazine was talking about how the whole history of the Alamo was presented in historic terms, when if you really look at it, it was all about the U.S. invading Mexico, you know, seising property of another people, another language, another culture that didn't belong to them, and then being really, you know, really annoyed when those people fought back and took it. I mean, that's why I said the more voices that you hear, the better rounded the story you have. Now, look, also, I'm a guy, I'm a grey haired guy north of 50. So at that point, we're also talking about Canada only just changing from largely white British, you know, influenced nation that it had been to opening its doors to more people coming in, which has probably not still brought all of the change that, you know, all the broadening of history there should be, but has brought some of that.

MG: Falen, what happened after that teacher told you that? He says in quotations history lesson, because there's a second part to the story.

FALEN JOHNSON: I called my cousins and-- no, I'm just kidding. No, I went home and I asked my dad because I was- I wasn't sure. I remember sitting in my seat because I felt this sense of pride when the teacher said, we're going to be doing native studies. I you know, I puffed up and I thought, oh, my God, I'm finally going to do well in school. And I looked around the room and I looked at the other indigenous kids in the classroom and tried to catch their eye and give them like the thumbs up. Yes, we are going to nail this. And then the teacher said that to us and then I shrunk. I didn't protest because she was the teacher. And the teacher is always right, right? That's why they're the teacher. That night I went home and I asked my dad, I said, did Indians run around naked before white people got here? And he shook his head and he said no. But the thing is, these moments are happening, they're still happening, right? They're still happening for indigenous kids. You know, any kind of BIPOC children across this country, their stories, if you can't see yourself in the stories. Then it's really hard to feel engaged and to want to engage, but this history is all of ours, right? We're all here. It's all of ours to know and to have and to hold and to honour the good, the bad, the ugly, all of it.

MG: And that's one of the things that's come out certainly, you know, in the conversations in the last few weeks. But this is much longer than that, that people are trying to figure out. If we talk about the uncomfortable parts of our history, the dark parts of our history, the difficult parts of our history, how do we do that? In the context of telling the whole story, because people would say that if you tell that, then it obliterates maybe the good parts of the history as well. How do you strike a balance, if I can put it that way, or how do you incorporate those parts into the larger story of Canada do you think, Fallon?

FALEN JOHNSON: Well, I think it's important to tell both sides, you know, and obviously, like I think our podcast is, it's not for everyone we know that we're coming in from us from a certain perspective. And I kind of think in the same way that historical might not be for everyone. Those stories might not resonate for everyone in the same way. But we do think it's important to present both sides of it. And because it needs to be balanced and we need to know both sides of of those things. So, you know, we I remember we did a series on our first three episodes where the theme was, we're going to ruin your vacation. So we just went to vacation spots or, you know, virtually our audio wise went to vacation spots and looked at the history of these places where there are cottages, you know, where there's there's just massive wealth built on indigenous land. We looked at BANF and we looked at the roots of these places and also said, we love these places, like we love these places. But you got to remind yourself where you are and you have to remind yourself where your feet land, because paying respect to the people who built those places feels like the best way to honour that history.

MG: Anthony Wilson-Smith, what do you see as your role in helping Canadians come to terms with, again, some of the uglier parts of our history, some of the more uncomfortable parts?

ANTHONY WILSON-SMITH: Well, there's the old saying right to the old phrase, sometimes a great nation. Well, I mean, the unspoken part by definition, true, is sometimes not. So, you know, I think, you know, it's pretty indisputable that Canada has been a wonderful place in which to live for millions of people for many years, probably the majority of people, and remains an enviable place that millions of people around the world would like to come and for good reason for many of those who comes here. I come here. Having said that, it also remains clearly true that we have been an abject failure in our dealings, specifically worse than a failure, because that implies effort that, you know, we have had some horrible policies against indigenous people in particular and also against other racialized communities. So, you know, this is a country where people have died for the goodness of the country and where people have died in the indigenous communities because of the country. And, you know, it's just it's actually not that complex. I mean, I would also you know, we also look at it from the perspective of Canada. Canada has come in terms of inequity and inequalities a great long way, and that is demonstrable over its history. And it's also equally true that it's clear today that Canada has a great long way still to go. And I think, you know, just like, you know, you can't tell the good without the bad. You can't. The reverse is true. There's certainly a place for my feelings, you know, doing in this, which is an effective remedy for years of are we terrific? And a lot of back patting. And in great measure, that's not our focus. Ours is, you know, tell stories that we are, again, consider important in defining who we are. Some are good. Some are not.

MG: What are you thinking about on this Canada day, Anthony?

ANTHONY WILSON-SMITH: I think Canada always should be a bit more like almost like a Remembrance Day thing where we remember, as I said, we have historically remembered those who died for the country. This is a year that calls for us to remember the second part of what I said, those who died because of this country. So we think about our blessings, about the many things that we have. But we also think we should take some time here and think all of the basics, like,what do you know? I mean, do we love this place? If we love this place, we want to make it better because it's not where it needs to be and it's not where it should be.

MG: What about for you, Falen? What is what is Canada Day 20 21 mean to you?

FALEN JOHNSON: Wow, this year's definitely a different year, and I have to say I am comforted, but I mean, it does feel nice that there are there are places in this country, there are cities in the country that are that are pulling back on celebrations or cancelling it. That does that feels nice coming off. I don't want us to forget I don't want the news cycle to change and us to forget that they're currently in this moment looking for bodies of children. It feels like maybe this is the year to be more reflective in this moment and consider the history. This might be a good time for us to all do that instead of, you know, because and really consider what it means to be Canadian. What does that mean, because I feel like Canada is constantly struggling for identity beyond, you know, hockey, maple syrup, Canadian bacon, I'm like, who are we? Who are we? What is our history and how do we go forward?

MG: How do you answer that? I mean, who are we, do you think?

FALEN JOHNSON: I mean, I know who I am, I know who I am, I am Mohawk and Tuscarora from Six Nations Reserve and I'm Berkland. My people, you know, sided with the crown. We were in upstate New York. We sided with the crown and we ended up in Canada and we were given attractive land. The Haldimand tracked, where there is currently land defender sitting on that piece of land, defending it, holding it. That's where I come from, that's who I am.

MG: I'm really grateful to have the chance to speak with you both. Thank you very much.

ANTHONY WILSON-SMITH: Thank you both.

FALEN JOHNSON: Thank you.

MG: Falen Johnson is the co-host of the CBC podcast The Secret Life of Canada. And she's the host of Unreserved Anthony Wilson-Smith, the CEO of Historica Canada, the makers of Heritage Minutes. As he mentioned, there is content about indigenous people and residential schools on the site and they are working currently to add more of that content. Later in the programme, I'll speak with two other guests about what Canada means to them, Japanese Canadian author Mark Sakamoto and Olympian and chef de Mission for Team Canada in Tokyo, Marnie McBean. All of this leading up to a special Canada Day edition of The Current Tomorrow with Calgary Mayor Naheed Nenshi, citizenship Judge Suzanne Carriere, er musician Shad and others reflecting on life in this country. We would be happy to hear from you as well. What does it mean to be Canadian in 2021? You can email us thecurrent@cbc.ca. The CBC News is next. And then.

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It's amazing. You know, we walk without any attention to the remarkable societies that are just under our feet. And so I'm always looking at the ground and I can tell you how many people are just stomping on things that I would kill to have.

MG: The exciting societies underfoot are made up of ants and they are more complex, more fascinating and more expensive than you might think. That story coming up in six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One.

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This 8-year-old's passion for ants is 'inspiring,' says biologist and ant-ficionado

Guest: Benjamin Arana-Stirling, Alicia Arana, Ehab Abouheif

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, an author and the grandson of someone who endured internment camps for Japanese Canadians during the Second World War and a decorated athlete serving as this year's chef de mission for Team Canada in Tokyo, each with different perspectives on what it means to be Canadian. Those conversations in 30 minutes. But first, the wonderful and lucrative world of ants.

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BENJAMIN ARANA-STIRLING: This is a carpenter ant queen right here, and it's fairly slow growing, [gasps] but there's another type of queen and that I have that sprays acid, but it grows very quickly.

MG: This is Benjamin Arana-Stirling in Halifax. Benjamin is eight and like a lot of kids, he loves insects, specifically bends into ants.

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BENJAMIN ARANA-STIRLING: How to describe them? Beautiful, wonderful creatures and cool to watch. Violent. They're cool as well because they can actually float on water and go underwater.

VOICE 1: Everyone hates fire ants, I thought.

BENJAMIN ARANA-STIRLING: Well, I love them. Even though I've been bitten by 50, I still like them. The ants, they don't necessarily just go into your house and wreck everything for no reason. Not at all. They wreck everything to get food, but a reason to stop ants. It's just to leave them be and not give them that much food. They'll move out.

MG: Ben hunts for queen ants.

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BENJAMIN ARANA-STIRLING: You can find them under rocks. Queen andts are special because they fly out of the nest to go find other stuff.

MG: And then he leads them into test tubes, feeds them honey by toothpick and watch them and cares for them.

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BENJAMIN ARANA-STIRLING: Sometimes even you can feed them rottins' stuff that you don't want to eat, like say you have a rotten chicken that you fried, the ants would devour it.

MG: But what he does next might shock you, certainly surprised his mother, Alicia Arana. Ben sells the ants for 30 dollars a queen.

ALICIA ARANA: Weird. I don't know if I quite believed that that was a thing that anyone would ever spend money on it, except for the fact that Benjamin was so obsessed with it and we couldn't find a queen at first. So we were willing to ship this ant in, from BC, for sixty dollars.

MG: Ben is part of a growing community of ant hobbyists, the YouTube channel Ants Canada has more than four million subscribers. Ben's parents are pretty sure he's still the only ant dealer in Atlantic Canada, though.

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ALICIA ARANA: I would say the weirdest thing is the people that are interested in buying the ants. So we've had other kids who were, you know, obviously are just like Benjamin and find them fascinating, but like grown men, too, who just decided that they wanted to buy an ant as a hobby and showed up at our front door. So that just made me laugh because I've told so many people about Benjamin's ant obsession and the fact that we have these test tubes of ants in my spare bedroom. And I just couldn't believe that this thing is actually taking off as, like, we're selling ants. The only ant dealer in all of Atlantic Canada. It's hilarious.

MG: It turns out that ant hobbyists like Ben have learnt so much about ants that they're actually helping scientists study them. Ehab Abouheif is a biology professor at McGill University. He's in Montreal. Ehab, good morning. Good morning. What do you think? Listening to Ben and his mom there?

EHAB ABOUHEIF: I you know, these kinds of conversations just inspire me. I mean, I've spent my entire life, you know, studying ants and to see other people, especially so young, get so excited about their social lives and... It's just I find it really inspiring, kind of gives me some meaning to the work and my whole research career,

MG: Ben talked about ants being beautiful, wonderful creatures. What makes ants so fascinating?

EHAB ABOUHEIF: It's incredible. There are 15000 species of ants. All of them are social. And there is so much variation in their social lives. It's incredible. You find all kinds of amazing behaviours in these societies.

MG: Like whar?

EHAB ABOUHEIF: I mean, well I remember standing at the edge within the tropical forests in Costa Rica and looking down at these leaf cutting ants and asking one of the local experts about what they were doing and no joke, they were carrying all their trash in a very orderly manner. They would come to the edge of the bank of the river. They would drop the trash into the stream. That in a way that would take the trash away from the colony. And believe it or not, they actually bury their dead just like humans.

MG: Sorry, would the ants bury their dead?

EHAB ABOUHEIF: That's right. When an ant dies, they take the ants and they put them sort of in a nice cemetery, a small pile of dead ants in the far corner of the of the nest. And E.O. Wilson at Harvard did these amazing experiments where he waited till the ant was just about to die. He squeezed the kind of the. All of it, because that's how they communicate through chemical signals and he painted it on a live andt. And they took that live event and they threw it in this pile. So clearly they have this amazing orchestration and chemical language and that allows them to coordinate their behaviour and do amazing things that we would see in human societies, organised waste management, burial grounds. They have police forces. It's quite remarkable.

MG: Tell me more. I want to talk about the police forces in a moment. Tell me more about these dealers, the queen and dealers, what's going on there

EHAB ABOUHEIF: in order to raise a colony of ants, the workers, they don't reproduce. They have very reduced reproductive capacity. And so it's really the queen that is doing all the reproduction in the colony. So you need the queen to be able to produce and give rise to more workers so that you could have a thriving colony. So that's why everybody's so obsessed with these queens. You have a queen, you have a colony. What's amazing is that when a queen lays an egg just depending on its nutrition or temperature, if that egg develops into a worker, it lives for three months. If it develops into a queen, it lasts for 30 years. So same genes, just different nutrition or social interactions or temperature. And you will get something that lives for three months or 30 years.

MG: So just to be clear, the queen ant lives for 30 years?

EHAB ABOUHEIF: Can live up to 30 years. Yeah. And so you have this colony and if you're able to take care of it, this queen at will give you a colony that will live for a very long time.

MG: And there's this whole marketplace of ants dealers.

EHAB ABOUHEIF: And there's a whole marketplace of art dealers who, you know, are just interested in watching the ants. And they're and they're like these fascinating behaviours that I'm talking about.

MG: What are people doing with the ants? I mean, is this just a hobby, a pet? Why why would people be involved in this? I mean, I can understand your research, but outside of that research, what's happening,

EHAB ABOUHEIF: I think people just find them remarkably fascinating to watch these coordinated behaviours. Some of these people actually helped our research. Usually can collect Queens in the spring, but you really can't get like, you know, just unmated queens, ones that have just newly mated. So you can catch them usually sometime in the spring. But it was wintertime for us. And I was just like, oh, my God, what am I going to do? And so I started looking on Kajiji, believe it or not. And I found this boy who is, you know, who is selling ants. And I communicated with him. I told him I was a professor and research and we became friends. He actually came to visit me at my lab and we had just, you know, a great time. His father came and he had such a passion. You know, first of all, finding the queens is something really exciting because you have thousands of individuals and you're looking for a queen. It's kind of like trying to find a treasure, a diamond amongst a bunch of, like, pennies, you know, they're are just kind of hidden. So there's a thrill of the hunt. And then when you get them and you raise them, just seeing how they coordinate and build something out of scratch is just amazing.

MG: And are these the kind of ants that we would see like in our garden that we would see in the backyard, the ants that somehow might get into our house?

EHAB ABOUHEIF: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there are some species that are really, you know, of course, the carpenter ants, the there are tiny ants, you know, that are that are quite rambunctious, let's say. But most yeah, most of them, you'll see the really common ones are everywhere. You know, it's amazing. I can't tell you how much, you know, we walk without any attention to the remarkable societies that are just under our feet. I can tell you, like, I'm often just looking on the ground because that's, you know, kind of my status quo. I'm always eyes peeled to the ground. I look, my wife always makes fun of me because I'm never looking up at the world. I'm always looking down at the world. And so I'm always looking at the ground. And I can tell you how many people are just stomping on things that I would kill to have.

MG: And so the queens I mean, specifically, what are you looking for when you're turning over those logs? No digging up, you know, in the ground and flipping over the rocks. What specifically are you looking for?

EHAB ABOUHEIF: Well, I mean, you the queen is often several times larger than the workers. You know, she has a very enlarged bottom. The queen just has a much bigger abdomen. Right. And that you could tell she's much larger and so you can spot her. There's no question that you can spot the queen relative to the workers. But she's pretty tricky. She knows how to hide.

MG: And then the queens would leave their colonies to go and start new ones. Right?

EHAB ABOUHEIF: So the queen in the colony will never leave. I mean, she's heavily fortified and protected by the workers, but once a year she has to, like any Canadian, you know, she feels like any ants in Canada need to have their cold. Right. So they get their cold shock. And then when it starts to get warmer, that's a signal for the queens to now start laying eggs that will develop into what we call virgin queens and males or unmated queens and males that have wings. And so at that time of the year, that's a signal she starts producing a lot of, you know, of these winged queens and virgin winged queens and males. And then on that, you know, they wait for that one day. It's just like two hours. And a bunch of colonies in the area just fly up into the air and the males and the queens start mating. They make these mating balls where they start mating in the air and they fall to the ground. The males will die because, you know, they all that's their one job in life is just to transfer the sperm. The queen will then rip off her wings, the mated ones, and we'll start, you know, in a frenzy, start looking for a new place to live so they can start their new colony. And that's how the generations, you know, kind of start over.

MG: Where did this start for you? How did you become obsessed with ants?

EHAB ABOUHEIF: You know, I first fell in love with ants- but not necessarily, you know, as a kid I never really played with and as a kid I was I was a scientist, I was kind of working on fish and then my adviser had moved from from the United States, where I was doing my Ph.D. to Germany. And so I started from scratch and I was talking to my advisor and oh, wow, that's a really cool because they have these queens that live for so long and these workers that live for three months, these queens that live for 30 years. And if we can unlock that secret, man, we could unlock, you know, the secrets of the genome. I mean, man, you mess with the gene, you make something live for 30 years. You mess with the gene, you make it live for three months. How is that possible? You you messed with the genes, something can develop wings. Something can't at all. Something can lay millions of eggs. Another thing can hardly any eggs at all. Unlock that, and you really understood something about the nature of of of how environment and genes interact. And this is all where biology, you know, the future of biology is. So we were thinking of ants is such a great model. But, I didn't know anything about ants. It was only by accident that, you know, because I went out and I tried to collect them myself. And I actually was feeling pretty bad because, you know, this was the first time I was looking at them. I got a number from a friend who was basically saying, oh, you should check out this man on Long Island who makes false teeth for a living.

MG: This is the start of a great story. Continue.

EHAB ABOUHEIF: Yeah, right. Yeah. He makes false teeth for a living. Why don't you go see him? And I was like, you got to be kidding me. I mean, you want me to go see a man who has, you know, a dental studio. You got to be joking. Anyway, so I called the guy. I walk into his, on his property and it turns out he has three acres of land, OK, that he dedicates to raising ants. So you see he walk onto his land. He's got these beautiful rolling hills in the middle of Long Island and all these rocks that are colour coded for all the different ants that live under these rocks. And so he makes false teeth in the morning and he plays with ants in the afternoon. And it was there that I went from failure to all of a sudden he showed me how to dig them, how to find them, and then just watching them all of a sudden. These amazing ants that have, you know, the the these massive headed soldiers and just workers come come charging at me. I mean, it was love at first sight. I could never turn back.

MG: I mean, if you sit and look at ants, you'll see them, you know, carrying food in a line or as you said, you know, perhaps moving bodies to the ant graveyard. You said there are ants that police the behaviour of other ants. What's going on there?

EHAB ABOUHEIF: Oh, yeah. It turns out, you know, that, you know, humans, we fight over money, basically resources and money in and societies. What they fight over is who is going to reproduce. So who is going to pass their genes on to the next generation? If a worker is trying to reproduce, then she's not working. And so the whole society could collapse. If all the workers decided that they wanted to reproduce and compete with the Queen, then the whole society collapses. And so it would be the same thing if every individual citizen in the human society decided to go out and start stealing money, then that doesn't work. Everything falls apart. And so they have a police force to make sure that if a worker tries to reproduce, they can sniff her out, you know, there she changes her chemical signal because when they reproduce, the reproduction gives off a certain chemical signature. They go bee l ine. The police force goes bee line to the reproducing worker and aggressives her until she stops. So it's kind of remarkable.

MG: That's incredible. What about I mean, I've read something about this, about ants that kidnap other ants.

EHAB ABOUHEIF: That's right. So the man on Long Island, he's the one who introduced me to that because that's what he spent his life actually studying, he studies kidnapping ants. And so it turns out that there are some ants they go out in, like, about a thousand ants at the same time. It's a certain time of the day. So it's exactly at about three p.m., the sun has to be in the right position. They have sent out some scouts that go around to these other colonies and kind of scout out where there are some really plump and rich colonies that they could raid. They come back, they signal to the ants and boom, they go to a rate of about a thousand. And it's something just remarkable to watch. You know, a thousand ants charging in a beeline towards this one colony. They go in, they don't kill the queen. They steal the larvae, they kidnap the larvae. They bring it back to the nest. And then when the larvae hatch, they take on the chemical passports of the ants that raided them. And so they think they're part of that colony and they start working for them.

MG: That's incredible.

EHAB ABOUHEIF: It's amazing. That's why people get so fascinated. I mean, he studied these kidnappings for 50 years. You just sat there and watched them for the pure love of it. And he ended up taking all these notes on these kidnapping behaviour events. And he's given it to me. And we now have some evidence that climate change has changed the behaviour of these kidnapping.

MG: And I was going to say, what did it mean? We know the climate change is changing so much of the natural world. What is it doing to ants?

EHAB ABOUHEIF: I mean, from what I can see right now, based on my preliminary studies with with the kidnapping ants is that it is changing their behaviour. It's changing the timings of their behaviour. They have to wait. It gets hotter and hotter. They have to then start reading later and later in the day, they get squeezed up against Night-Time and so they can bring back less and less larvae for sustenance. So it's good for the ants that they kidnap, but it's bad for them, it's affecting them. It's affecting their social lives. It's affecting their behaviour. That's absolutely the case.

MG: How has this growth in sort of citizen science and the renewed interest in an ant attention from hobbyists, how is that influencing the work that you're doing?

EHAB ABOUHEIF: So not only are they an incredible resource, you know, professors are busy people, right? We have to teach and we have to do a lot of administration. We're trying to write grants all the time. You know, we're constantly on the run and we don't often have the time to spend like this amazing eight year old boy to spend in nature just watching them, you know? And I think that these there's going to be an amazing collaboration between us and these citizen scientists to help us actually understand, where they are, how they are, what they're doing in the field because we need them. So I think this citizen scientists have an incredible role to play.

MG: They tell me more just briefly about the we need them, please.

EHAB ABOUHEIF: So, I'll just tell you about a citizen science project. We we started myself in an undergrad student by the name of Ben Rudzki. He's a computer science biology student. And we put together an iPhone app that basically you can download it to your phone and anybody like, you know, the eight year old boy can go out. And actually when they see them flying, when they see the ants either flying or lots of- one of the things that, you know, after the flight, you see tons of these queens running around. When they do that, they can take pictures and then the phone will automatically download all the weather data from the weather stations. And so the time the actual GPS coordinates, the weather data, the ants and their flights are incredibly tuned to the to the environment and environmental changes. And we're going to be able to track year after year how these societies are actually responding to changes in the climate. We're trying to then tap into the power of citizen scientists all over the world to help us build this global database that will help us track these changes year after year. Because I tell you what, if those societies are changing means all other animals are are experiencing the same types of changes.

MG: Let me before I let you go, let's end with where we started, which is young eight year old ants dealer Ben. Here is what Ben said when we asked him about his plans for his business.

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BENJAMIN ARANA-STIRLING: Sell the ants when I have eboughm. But when I have like 60 or 40 ants and they say you can charge higher when you get more ants. So I can charge it up for 40 and just start selling my ants. I'm also going to train my dog to sniff out Queens. If they can sniff out covid, they can sniff out Queens.

MG: Is it possible for Ben's dog to learn to sniff out Queen ants?

EHAB ABOUHEIF: I mean, I love this type of dreaming because it's that kind of dreaming that moves knowledge forward. And I'll tell you, I mean, I there are some ants that I identify, like when I dig up the colony and I see it, what I do is I literally squish the ant between my fingers. I put it to my nose. And if it smells like blue cheese, I know exactly what species of ants it is. Or sometimes I think the ants I'm squishing if it smells like citronella, I know those are citronella ants. I know exactly which part of the family tree they belong to. So I think if our noses are able to detect them, who knows, maybe a dog could sniff them out. Right.

MG: There is an ant that smells like blue cheese?

EHAB ABOUHEIF: There is an ant that smells like blue cheese. Indeed, you know.

MG: The sense of wonder and joy and curiosity that you have about ants is really contagious. Clearly, Ben has that as well. Ehab, it's great to talk to you about this. Thank you very much.

EHAB ABOUHEIF: Thank you so much. I really enjoyed this.

MG: Take care. Bye bye. Ehab Abouheif is the Canada Research Chair in Evolutionary Developmental Biology at McGill University. Are you an ant keeper? You can tweet us pictures of what you found or created @TheCurrentCBC. We would also love to hear about the interesting things you have observed and why you think ants deserve more respect than a trap. Right? US, we are at thecurrent@cbc.ca Now a preview of a story we're going to bring you on Friday's programme. The story of what happened when a flower farmer in eastern Ontario decided to deliver handmade bouquets to every person living in long term care in her area, and how a group of grade eight students from Tweed Elementary School got involved.

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[Music]

VOICE 1: Their flowers are just really beautiful and they make people happy. So we thought that they would be happy with the flowers.

VOICE 2: We are graduating today and it's very exciting for us and we're just glad that we were able to do this before we're graduating. Makes the day even more exciting.

VOICE 3: Our teachers and everything have worked really hard to make this year very special for us. And this makes it even more special because we were able to put smiles on people's faces.

VOICE 4: Tell me about what it what it was like to see the flowers.

VOICE 5: It was like it was just like, oh, I didn't expect them to be like that pretty. And it's just like I thought they were just going to be flowers. And it's like, well, those are those are like flowers, flowers.

[Laughter]

VOICE 2: Flowers, flowers. Amber McCann, Callie Derry and Jack Mallette from Miss Alexander's Great Eight class at Tweed Elementary School in Tweed, Ontario. You will hear more of that wonderful story on Friday's edition of The Current. Well, coming up after your regional update,

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There you are in a stadium of like eighty thousand people. And, you know, it's the Canadian flag, like it's not some ambiguity. Is that like five stars or six stars or is that like red, white and black or red, white and blue or. No, it is. It is. Our flag is so incredible.

MG: Reflections on the flag. On the eve of Canada Day, an Olympic gold medallist, an award winning author, will talk about what it means and where this country needs to go from here. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

Back To Top »

Mark Sakamoto on his family’s experience in Japanese internment camps; and Marnie McBean on the role of politics, protest and activism at the Olympics

Guests: Mark Sakamoto, Marnie McBean

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway, you're listening to The Current. As I mentioned earlier in the programme, we have been doing a lot of reflecting on what Canada Day means this year, and we've been putting the big questions to some big name Canadians. In the lead up to the first of July, we have seen the grim discoveries of hundreds of remains on the sites of residential schools, the deadly attack on a Muslim family in London, Ontario, and antiblack and anti Asian racism. All of this is driving a national conversation about this country's past, present and its future. Joining me now is Mark Sakamoto. He is the author of the memoir Forgiveness A Gift from My Grandparents. His grandmother was one of thousands of Japanese Canadians interned by the Canadian government during the Second World war. Mark, good morning.

MARK SAKAMOTO: Good morning. Thanks so much for having me.

MG: Thanks for being here. What are you thinking about this Canada today?

MARK SAKAMOTO: Yeah, certainly not fireworks and hot dogs, obviously, as we're unearthing a hurt that is beyond words. And I think collectively we all feel like it's the tip of the iceberg. These numbers that are sort of thrown into our heads right now who I think are going to get much larger and reveal a sort of an evil that is we conveniently placed on distant shores, you know, but I do remain if the question is, am I optimistic, perhaps. Yeah, maybe at times I feel like I'm clinging to it. But I am still

MG: I want to come back to the optimism in a moment. Do you think, given, you know, the sombre nature of this moment, the hurt and the pain that so many people and the anger that so many people feel, is this something that we should be celebrating Canada Day right now?

MARK SAKAMOTO: Well, I mean, it's kind of an old cliche, but, you know, you need to know your darkness, to know your light. I think that the parts of me that remain optimistic lie in the promise of this country. And so I think we need to really, really look at our dark and our hurt. In one hand, hold that and the other hand, really hold that candle at the same time. I would hate to have the candle of the promise of Canada snuffed out, maybe when we need it most.

MG: this is a country that has hurt your family deeply. I mentioned that your grandmother and her family were interned in Alberta during the Second World War. Tell me a bit about you've written about this extensively. Tell me a bit about what they went through.

MARK SAKAMOTO: Sure. I mean, it's a terrible story. My grandparents were were Canadian. They were born in Canada. They lived rich lives. I don't mean that materially, but I mean, they had two boats and they fished and they went to English school and then Japanese school and they couldn't vote yet. But they were really living a quite a wonderful life. And there were anti-Asian forces that really used national security. I mean, it's the oldest trick in the book, wrapped yourself in the flag and do things that folks otherwise might not get on board with. And all Japanese Canadians were evacuated one hundred miles from the coast. And that was after the heads of the RCMP Navy, the military establishments said there is no Japanese Canadian threat. And they lost everything. They went from, you know, rich life to to living in a chicken coop in southern Alberta where folks got sick and they lost all of their belongings and they clung to their dignity and really clawed their way back over time. But, Mike, the Canadian government really did cause great harm to my family at one point in time and a lot of Japanese Canadians, all Japanese, Canadian families.

MG: How has that shaped how you see this country then?

MARK SAKAMOTO: Well, I've sort of reflected on this. I was in Dufferin Grove Park while I was, one one afternoon while I was in the midst of this research and I was really kind of down on my government and the country at that point in time, just just really uncovering the hurt in my own familial history. And I was kind of in my own head, but I was pushing my daughter and shared a very brief moment. We had the language barrier, but a very brief moment with a mother who was pushing her son and she had just come from Syria. We did sort of manage to get that. And I looked at her looking at Dufferin Grove Park and the way that she looked at the park and the people in it, it looked like that she was witnessing heaven. And I sort of had to, you know, look afresh. And, you know, I'm sure you've walked that park or rode your bike through that park. And, you know, what you see is what I saw that moment, which was a family that I think was from Korea having a picnic. There was, you know, a family that I think was from the Caribbean, like barbecuing jerk chicken on a hibachi. There were kids with turbans playing with, you know, Jewish children. I mean, it's this. And the promise, that is the promise of Canada. That's not Canada everywhere. That's not even that park every day. But it does exist in that place. And for me, it was just sort of a slap in the face, kind of like, hey, you know, yes, harm exists. Harm exists in your family and your family history, too. But look at this. And there are few pieces of real estate in this world that that exists on a regular basis.

MG: So when you come out of that, I mean, and you talk about the optimism around the promise of this country in the moment that we're in, where are you finding that optimism now?

MARK SAKAMOTO: That's I think that's a a great question and it's an easy question to answer. I think you find it in the folks that like the folks when they first saw that one headline of 250, you know, it's just like that almost felt like the inverse of Crosby's golden goal, where you felt that morning, just a silence, a real recognition that, holy smokes, this is - and this is something that we've known. But but to have it in black and white. So I see it and I find optimism in the reaction of many, many people that truly want to get some semblance of heeling. The numbers of folks that I think want to find that light and get through this together is the space where optimism lifts.

MG: Let me just ask you finally about the word that is the title of your memoir, which is forgiveness, which is also hard to get to. What does that word in the context of what we've been talking about, what does that word mean to you now?

MARK SAKAMOTO: Yeah, well, it sure as heck doesn't mean forgetting, that's for sure. I think forgiveness really does recognise the harm and really examine the harm. But does its best, my grandparents did their best not to bequeath that harm onto the next generation. And, you know, just to go full circle on this Dufferin girl story, I mean, every summer there's a massive power in Duffrin Grove Park and it's beautiful and and the sights and the sounds and the sharing of tradition and culture. And at the end, every year, there's a circle that everybody's allowed to participate in and invited to participate in. And you see that circle with indigenous drummers and children from literally around the world participating, enjoying and sharing in that moment. I mean, if that can't bring you optimism, not much can,

MG: Mark, it's good to talk to you as always. Thank you very much.

MARK SAKAMOTO: Hey, thanks a lot, Matt.

MG: Mark Sakamoto is the author of Forgiveness: A Gift from My Grandparents. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio one. My name is Matt Galloway

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SPORTS COMMENTATOR: McBean and Heddle going for the medal track, trying to row their way into history.

MG: That's the Canadian Olympian Marnie McBean and her rowing team-mate Kathleen Heddle at the 1996 Atlanta Games. Marty McBean is a three time Olympic gold medallist and is about to head to the Tokyo Games as Canada's chef de mission name being. Good morning.

MARNIE MCBEAN: Good morning, Matt. How are you?

MG: I'm great. I listen to that and there is a lot that is in that clip. There is a big win. There is you and your racing partner, Kathleen, who died earlier this year. There is the fun of being at the Olympics and being in that moment. What goes through your mind when you hear that?

MARNIE MCBEAN: Well, I was like, sure, he's going to start me off with tears. Way to go, Matt. There's a lot. There is a lot. There's also crowd noise in there. Right? So that's something that we I'm sure we'll talk about. But it just it it's amazing that that's twenty five years ago now. That's crazy because there's part of it feels like one hundred years ago and part of it feels like, you know, not yesterday anymore, but more like maybe 10 years ago. I just I can't believe I did it. When Kathleen and I would talk about the Olympics, it was always in this why do other people make it look so hard? Like if we could do it, I'm sure it couldn't have been that hard. And yet I know it was. And it was really special. And and here I am. I think my job is to make sure that, like this title of most successful Summer Olympic athlete, like buy gold medals, that's got to go right. Let's get it. Like, that's going to be long gone. I want to I'm going to have four and five and six summer gold medals. So bring it.

MG: Bring it. How many games have you been to?

MARNIE MCBEAN: Tokyo is going to be my tenth, if that's kind of crazy. So it was three is an athlete. My third I withdrew. So I don't it doesn't count officially, but three is an athlete, one purely as media and the rest I've been a mentor to summer and Winter Olympic teams and now the chef de mission.

MG: So when you talk about fans, how important is it when you are either competing or you're standing on the podium and you see the fans who are there and they're holding the maple leaf and it doesn't matter where you are in the world. There are some fans who have the Canadian flag there. What does that mean?

MARNIE MCBEAN: Oh, it's amazing. Well, you know, I know when I talk about going into the opening ceremony and I feel kind of badly even just talking about these great moments, because they're not entirely moments that our is going to have. But, you know, I talk about walking into my first opening ceremony in Barcelona [unintelligible] and I talk about how incredible our flag is because there you are in a stadium of like 80 thousand people and way up in the rafters, there's a Canadian flag. Someone's got a Canadian flag in Spain a million years ago. And, you know, it's the Canadian flag, like it's not some ambiguous. Is that like five stars or six stars between Australia, New Zealand, or is that like red, white and black or red, white and blue? Or is that red, white and green or- no. It is. Our flag is so incredible. But the thing is and this is the part that I talk to the athletes a lot about this always and more this year than ever before. Athletes prepare for the Olympic competition. They dream about the Olympic competition, you know, and the great moments, the cherry on the top might be, you know, standing on the podium and waving to your friends and family and like a hug at the end. But athletes train to be on the field of play. And, you know, Kathleen and I could have gone that fast had there been no crowd noise, you know, had there been nobody in the stands, because that's what we trained to do. It is so nice to share it with friends and family. It was so nice to run up into the stands. But, you know, Kathleen's parents didn't come. Her mom didn't come to the competition and we didn't have the same amount of family coming down or I didn't have the same amount of family coming to Sydney. And it's a total luxury. I feel like I've got to, like, turn my optimism metre around on this one, because you started me with tears on Kathleen and then I went to no fans in the stands. But the games are going to be amazing. And the quality and the strength and the fitness of Canadian athletes I think is unparalleled.

MG: Can I just ask you just one final thing about you and Kathleen and that's carrying the flag. What was that like, at the closing ceremony? I mean, what did that mean, given everything that you've just said and who you are, what did that mean to you?

MARNIE MCBEAN: I remember talking about it at the time. So, you know, and Kathleen had actually gone home. So we finished in the middle of the Olympics and Kathleen had gone home. Her husband was on the team, but was an unaccredited member of the team. So he didn't get like- he was an alternate. And so she went home to be with him and. Mike and I had to convince her to come back and that was a whole process, too, because Kathleen normally is not the kind of moment that she wants. And he was like, no, this is different. This is special. So she came back and we talked about it, how it that wasn't just because we won the Olympics. That was because of the character. You know.

MG: You see the character. What do you mean by the character?

MARNIE MCBEAN: Like our character, our character. We went about things with a quiet- Kathleen made sure it was a quiet ego, and I really believe there is a huge difference between ego and arrogance and so did Kathleen. Arrogance is a sense of entitlement and divine destiny kind of thing, and ego is a sense of belief in ourselves. And we worked really hard. We believed in the quality of work of our competitors. And we had a lot of respect for them, but we had a lot of confidence, which gave us a quiet ego.

MG: How are you processing this moment when it comes to this flag? We're in a moment now where people are thinking really hard about who we are and what our national story is and whether that story is still a true story or an accurate story or a fair story. And then we have Canada Day celebrations that are being cancelled or scaled back and people are taking the moment to really think hard about about flying that flag and what it means to fly the flag. What are you thinking about?

MARNIE MCBEAN: Well, you know, this is a real world conversation, and I'm going to give it a sport example of it. You know, when I have a terrible race, part of that character was we come out, we talk about the terrible race and we learn from it. And we try to never make that happen again. But we own it. We own our mistakes. And I remain a fiercely proud Canadian. And that includes looking at the mistakes and understanding what the settler role was in the horrific impact that we've had on our indigenous hosts, so I think I'm proudly Canadian and I am actually tossed on whether I'm going to wear an orange shirt or a red shirt on Canada Day. I actually I think I'll probably wear both my family. I've got matching shirts, matching red Canada shirts and matching red every child matters shirts. I think the way we go forward is proud Canadians as we continue to learn. And, you know, we are open to the conversation and and maybe we stop being open to the conversation in the same way with athletes. I'm like, I'm tired of talking about resilient because what we've been doing is adapting. So instead of being open to the conversation, let's let's move the Dow from being open to the conversation and let's do more than read the recommendations on the truth and reconciliation reports and let's start implementing them. There are some specifically that have to do with sport. And I think in our community, in the sport community, those are steps that we can do and super proud of athletes like Becky Scott and Spirit North, which is all about bridging gaps and inclusion. And it's more than just it's sport for play and for all the healthy things, but it's also a sport for high performance that we should be including and and providing opportunities for our indigenous youth to have access to resources and coaching and the biggest, best dreams that we want for all of our children. So I think we're learning a lot about ourselves and the mistakes that we've made and, you know, arrogantly or whatever, what made me a champion was I never looked away from those and I delved right into them and I tried to make sure they never happen again.

MG: Part of not looking away is acknowledging them, as you've been saying. There's a lot of anger that's out there. What happens if in Tokyo, an athlete who feels that anger gets on the podium and wants to make a statement, wants to say something about the conversation that's happening in this country? What would you say to them?

MARNIE MCBEAN: Well, on the podium, we still have to- there's our Canadian values and what our athletes commission has said about that, what the International Athletes Commission have said about that, and that the majority, 70 percent of all the athletes polled said that on the podium, specifically on the podium and on the field of play are not the places to do that. But athletes have interviews to do. They have mixed own interviews to do. They have their own interviews to do. And I would say, well, maybe not on the podium, but you have a lot of opportunity to talk about this for decades, especially, like, when you're asking me questions about an Olympics that happened 25 years ago. And so that podium athlete will have a soapbox for decades. So they are going to have a great voice coming home. And I hope they use it. I want Canadians to realise how talented and deep and thoughtful and community focussed our athletes are. And I recognise that, you know, when 70 percent of people vote for something, it means 30 percent of people didn't vote for it. They had an alternate opinion. You know, if an athlete chooses the podium to make a statement, I want to make sure that they knew going on to that podium that there are some consequences that Team Canada can't help them circumvent.

MG: Like what?

MARNIE MCBEAN: The IOC will make their decisions on, on how they will enforce their rules. But we're going into an Olympic and Olympic venue and there are Olympic rules. And if the IOC chooses to enforce rule of 50, you know, whether it's as simple as taking it [unintelligible] away. Or they could, thye could, I don't see this happening, but they could escalate all the way up to removing a medal.

MG: Rule 50 is the rule against kind of a would seem to be a political display?

MARNIE MCBEAN: It's demonstrations and protests. And what the athletes wanted to know was what was the difference between a demonstration at a protest and mostly the athletes, Canadian and internationally, are in favour of demonstration in some form. But what they voted against was a demonstration on the field of play and the podium. They just want to keep those a little more clean. If it's your life issue, then, I know, this would sound terrible, but they want to keep it less complicated. They would like those moments that everyone tried really hard for, to be about sport and then take the conversation directly to the journalist in the mixed zone and interviews.

MG: Just last point on this. Just people might find it hard to understand why if there's a billion people watching and this is your issue, you wouldn't use that moment to draw attention to that issue, that moment to speak, that if not then, then when?

MARNIE MCBEAN: That's a great question, and that ultimately comes up to the athlete's choice. If they choose to break that rule at that point, then there's an element if you've got to respect that right. You knew the consequence and you did it anyways. As a chef, that's going to be heartbreaking, right? When I have to have a meeting with the athlete, first of all, to make sure they're OK. It's always going to be my first priority is the athlete. And then we will have, I'm sure we'll end up having conversations with the IOC and the organising committee on how they want to enforce it. But if an athlete makes an informed, conscious decision, I think that's what we want from our Canadians. Right. It's know the rules, like know of the rules, know all the consequences, know your options. Like, I think that's really important. They do have options. And the Canadian Olympic Committee, they want to amplify these messages. Right. So when an athlete - you're talking about an opportunity they have on a podium, to press maybe it might be a global issue. It might be a Canadian issue, but if it's a Canadian issue, it might be better served because I think technically the TVs are actually supposed to turn their cameras off on those moments. They're not supposed to show it, which is, you know, that's between the IOC and the Olympics. That's their contract. But you know what? If an athlete takes those opportunities and does them in the right way, we can amplify them. And we can say, look, we're going to take you on a media tour, like we're going to make sure that this concern that you have, we're not going to let you be the only voice sharing it. We can we can amplify that. So there is a way to make a big statement at the Olympics in the right way, and that's something definitely that's been possibly one of the advantages of the extra year is there's been a lot more time to discuss what rule 50 actually means, like the difference between demonstrations and protests and then how we can, as your team, like we are the team of the all these athletes. And that's one of the things that David said a long time ago. He wants to make sure that we are much better at amplifying the messages of all the different voices on our team.

MG: Just before I let you go, I mean, what are you looking forward to? People often talk about like the Olympic moment where there's a moment at the Games when. Like a switch is flicked in, kind of something happens. What are you looking forward to?

MARNIE MCBEAN: I'm looking forward to the joy of being there. You know how when you travel sometimes that you get in a taxi to go to the airport is so easy because you're like, OK, there's nothing left to do but travel and do my stuff. I can't pack anymore. So maybe it's going to be just that date will probably come, five days, six days into being there when I'm not quite so jet lagged and I'm sitting around and just go, people are coming and the games are going to start and they look different than any other games. But our athletes are going to get to do this, and that's totally awesome.

MG: Marnie, thank you very much.

MARNIE MCBEAN: Thanks for the chat. And it's always fun.

MG: Marnie McBean, chef de mission for Team Canada at the Tokyo Summer Games. Our conversations about Canada and what it means to be Canadian now continue tomorrow with Para-olympian and Senator Chantal Petitclerc, Refugee Aya Wadi, the writer Riley Yesno, the musician Shad and many more. That's tomorrow on The Current, and that is The Current for this Wednesday. Coming up next on CBC Radio One, it's Q. Tom Power will be speaking with Modest Mouse frontman Isaac Brock. But the indie bands Longevity and a brand new album they have out called The Golden Casket. I'll talk to you again tomorrow on a special Canada Day edition of The Current. Until then, here's the Sam Roberts band and the Canadian Dream. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current

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Full Transcript for June 30, 2021 Episode

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