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The AIH Transcript for June 24, 2021

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello, I’m Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is “As It Happens”.

[music: theme]

CH: Tonight:

CH: Breaking camp, and breaking promises. A woman who was kicked out of her tent at a downtown Toronto park says the city hasn't helped her find a new place to stay — despite committing to do just that.

CO: Finding her voice. In a dramatic hearing yesterday, Britney Spears spoke out against a legal conservatorship that has controlled her life for over a decade — and she made a bid to take back control.

CH: And... Achilleas helium. The state of Maine is cracking down on people who release balloons into the air on purpose. But it seems like you'll only be fined if you release 16 or more.

CH: “As It Happens”, the Thursday edition. Radio that assumes the fines will be adjusted for inflation.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: SK Unmarked Graves, Deb Haaland Schools, Miami Condo Collapse

SK Unmarked Grave

Guest: Marie Wilson

CH: When the Tk'emlúps te Secwepemc First Nation shared that it had made a preliminary discovery of unmarked burials at the site of the former Kamloops Indian Residential School, its leaders made one thing clear. Their discovery would not be the last. In the weeks since, further news of other sites has emerged. Today, The Cowessess First Nation in Saskatchewan announced its own preliminary finding of hundreds of unmarked graves at the former Marieval Indian Residential School.

SOUNDCLIP

CADMUS DELORME: We started our radar penetrating research on June the 2nd of 2021. As of yesterday, we have hit 751 unmarked graves. This is not a mass gravesite. These are unmarked graves. Over the past years, the oral stories of our elders, of our survivors and friends of our survivors, have told us stories that knew these burials were here. In 1960, there may have been marks on these graves. The Catholic Church representatives removed these headstones. And today, they are unmarked graves.

CH: Cowessess First Nation Chief Cadmus Delorme, on the discovery of 751 unmarked graves near a former residential school in Saskatchewan. Marie Wilson was one of the commissioners on the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, which released its report on the impact of residential schools in 2015. We reached her in Yellowknife.

CO: Marie, what goes through your mind as you listen to Chief Delorme share the COWESSESS First Nation’s news today?

MARIE WILSON: Oh, you know, on the... on the most crass of levels, here we go again. On the level of heart, of course, devastation, along with anyone who has a beating heart in this country. And on the level of being a mother and grandmother, just such deep empathy for those families who have been grieving and unacquitted, you know, over the generations knowing that children are gone and have been missing. And certainly, during our time as a commission, and now I'm speaking as a commissioner, to know and to remember and to hear in my head and my heart those stories of people who spent their entire lifetimes looking for children, their children who never made it home.

CO: And also at today's press conference, we heard from Florence Sparvier, who is a survivor of Marieval Indian Residential School in Saskatchewan, and just want to play some of what she had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

FLORENCE SPARVIER: They told us that our... our... our people, our parents, our grandparents had no... they didn't have a way to be spiritual because we were all heathens. And this was... I was the third one in my family that went to that school; my grandmother went, and my mother, and me. So they were still teaching that all the time. So they were putting us down as a people, so we learned how to not like who we were. And that has gone on and on and on, and it's still going on because we couldn't teach our people, our own families, how to look after themselves physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually.

CO: That's Florence Sparvier, and speaking to that generational trauma that you heard so much of when you were a commissioner on the The Truth and Reconciliation Commission. So… so what stands out to you about what Florence Sparvier had to say?

MW: Well, it's... it's the key to understanding intergenerational survivors when we hear that phrase. Why don't they just get over it? It is the glib comment made. And the answer is because, number one, that is a presumption that it is over. And secondly, it is a presumption that somehow that's an easy fix. The institutions whose calling card is based on the teachings of love invested in hate. And I heard children come out of those speak to us in their adult memories of their childhoods coming home. And I remember one, in particular, said when I came out of there, I hated everything. I hated the Church. I hated white people. I hated my parents. I hated myself. And then they talked through their voice of incredible resilience the long, hard path. It took them to come back to a place of self-love. And it speaks to the big work that remains in our society that isn't just about identifying children in unmarked graves, but it is also the reckoning that has to happen in our society.

CO: The... the particular school, the Marieval Indian Residential School, this operated from 1899 to 1997. It was run by the Catholic Church until the 70s. And these were... this is a school that you heard about when you heard the testimonies. What... what do you... can you tell us about Marieval?

MW: Well, first of all, to speak of Saskatchewan, which has the highest per capita Indigenous population. And in terms of longevity, the last residential schools that closed in the country were, in fact, in Saskatchewan, and and indeed, in the Northwest Territories where I live. And so, the intergenerational experience and the transfer of all of that is huge. This particular school, because it ran for such a long time, had lots of years for all of the harms that were there, including deaths. But the other thing, if I may, Carol, that you asked me what I thought of all that, what it made me think about. It made me think about a case very close to home here in Fort Providence, where, ironically, this very weekend, they will be marking the one 100th anniversary of the last of the Numbered Treaties — Treaty 11. And when that was signed, just down the road, a residential school was still operating there. And there is a grave site there where the graves of people who had been in the religious order were relocated with their markers to a new community cemetery site. But the children were basically all ploughed over into the same site and unmarked. So when I say here we go again, that's where I'm coming from on that one.

CO: We've heard since the Kamloops discovery that so many people saying that this changes everything, that we can't look at ourselves or this country in the same way. These are, of course, discoveries of things Indigenous communities knew about for a long time, including through the TRC Commission. But how do you think these... these revelations will change or should change how the broader Canadian public thinks about its history?

MW: Well, you can't change... you can't have a different history. We live in the present. And the challenge for us is what do we do in the present? Do we wring our hands about the past, or do we stand firmly in the present and say, this is what I want to be known for? What we're seeing here in the case of Kamloops and in the case of Cowessess is that now we have the... the political leadership, the elected leadership, speaking forward strongly and... and taking the leadership role there in a way that I think is very important. And if it marks a transition, it speaks to, on a parallel process, the need for our own political leadership in this country to take strong leadership that is seen to be action-oriented and not rhetorical. We have upcoming elections, and the citizen bosses of our elected leaders need to speak up and be very clear about what they expect of themselves and what they expect of their elected leaders.

CO: Marie, we will leave it there. We will be speaking again, I'm sure. And I appreciate speaking with you today. Thank you.

MW: And I just can't leave without sending out my heart and all good wishes for… for strength and solidarity with the people of Cowessess. And I also do want to say, with encouragement to all of our elected leadership, to do the right things so that we're not compounding and piling on past mistakes by making new ones.

CO: All right. We're hear you. Thanks, Marie.

MW: Thank you very much.

CH: Marie Wilson is one of the former Truth and Reconciliation commissioners and a member of the board of CBC-Radio Canada. We spoke to her from Yellowknife. The number for the 24 Hour Crisis Line for Indian Residential School Survivors and Family is 1-866-925-4419.

[hard transition to next segment]

Deb Haaland Schools

Guest: Christine Diindiisi McCleave

CH: Meanwhile, the United States has begun an effort to uncover the truth about its treatment of Indigenous children. The U.S. Secretary of the Interior, Deb Haaland, has announced plans to investigate the boarding schools set up under what was called the Indian Civilization Fund Act. Secretary Haaland is the first Native American to hold the post — and she spoke about her own family's painful experience of the schools. Christine Diindiisi McCleave is the Chief Executive Officer of National Native American Boarding School Healing Coalition. We reached her in Washington, D.C.

CO: Christine, what was it like to hear Secretary Haaland announce that this investigation was finally going to take place?

CHRISTINE DIINDIISI MCCLEAVE: It was a very emotional moment. We have been wanting the federal government to acknowledge this policy and these experiences that our relatives have had that have caused trauma and harm for... for many generations. So this was the culmination of decades and generations of people's prayers.

CO: And it comes from Secretary Haaland, who is the first Native American cabinet minister, and who knows from her own experience what happened to children who went to these boarding schools because of her own great grandfather. How much more meaningful was it for you that she spoke so much from the heart?

CDM: I think it was very important, not only for me personally but for so many of our boarding school survivors and descendants of survivors, to feel that... that connection that... that as a native person who is a descendant as well, that... that she knows exactly what we're dealing with.

CO: These schools, the residential schools in Canada, were set up to... the… the languages is... is not vague. They were set up to, quote, remove the savage or the Indian from the child. It was to assimilate them, to take away all of their culture, their language, their connection with their own families. You had the... what's called the Indian Civilization Act of 1819. What was the purpose of that?

CDM: The purpose was to assimilate Native people, to turn us into farmers and labourers and domestic servants, essentially. I think that's maybe from... from the settler standpoint. But from our standpoint, it was, you know, to eradicate our way of life. To destroy our... our language and our culture and break apart our families.

CO: We know in Canada there were five generations of approximately 150,000 children who went into the residential schools. What can you tell us about the residential school system in your country?

CDM: You know, we have looked to Canada quite a bit in terms of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission that took place. We've also been advised by former commissioners chief Willie Littlechild and Monica Wilson, and we've tried to make comparisons in terms of the numbers and the impact. But the difficulty with the United States is that we weren't able to get clear answers from the federal government in terms of answering the question of how many boarding schools, how many children went to those schools and how many died or went missing? And so we ended up doing some independent research, and we found 367 boarding schools in the United States. And so when we make a comparison to the 139 residential schools in Canada, we can then estimate that, you know, if you had 150,000 children going to those schools, we probably had double that number. And if you all in Canada, through the commission, found 4,000 children who died or went missing, we likely have more than double that number as well. But we don't know definitively how many children went to these schools or how many died or went missing because we have not yet had a truth commission in this country.

CO: And I'll just point out, even the numbers we have of the children who died or went missing, that number is considered to be a very modest estimate of... the Truth and Reconciliation commissioners believe it could be higher than 10,000 in Canada. Can you tell us about your own family's experience?

CDM: Yes, this work is personal for me. My great grandfather, John Willette, went to Carlisle Indian School, which was the first federal off-reservation boarding school here in the United States. He was there from 1910 to 1915, and he was recruited by Pop Warner to play for the Carlisle Indian football team, which is a legacy to be proud of, that my great grandfather played football with the legendary Jim Thorpe. So that's really something I'm proud of. But at the same time, I'm also saddened by, you know, the fact that he was there at... at Carlisle and... and had this experience. And then, my grandfather went to Marty Catholic Indian School, and he did not have a positive experience. And he said he never wanted to step foot in a church again. So there is definitely a mixed legacy of these boarding school experiences in my family, and it has most definitely impacted my mother, me and my children.

CO: In Canada, a lot of Canadians are just waking up to knowing what happened in these schools. Indigenous people have known for some time. And the discoveries, recent discoveries, of the graves of children at these schools has really shocked this nation. Do you think that Americans are prepared for what might be revealed to such a commission?

CDM: I think it depends on who you're speaking about. [laughing] I think there's definitely a lot of people in the United States that are looking to change the narrative about the history of this country to make it a more truthful one, a more inclusive one, that considers the perspective of Indigenous peoples and historically Black peoples. And so, yeah, there's definitely a lot of people who are ready to hear this and ready to look at the truth and ready to move forward and change our society for the better in terms of how we treat each other as human beings. And yet, we also know there are still other people who, for whatever reason, won't be ready. And... and that doesn't mean that we won't still move forward.

CO: Christine, we'll be watching what happens in your country. And I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

CDM: Thank you,

CH: Christine Diindiisi McCleave is a Chief Executive Officer of the National Native American Boarding School Healing Coalition. And you can find more on that story on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: sombre]

Miami Condo Collapse

Guest: Fiorella Terenzi

CH: Rescue workers in Surfside, Florida are digging through piles of rubble, still hoping to find survivors. This morning, part of a 12-storey condo building came tumbling down. As we go to air, one person is dead, at least 10 have been hospitalized, and more than 90 are unaccounted-for. Authorities are trying to figure out what caused the building to collapse. Fiorella Terenzi lives just one building away from the collapsed condos. We reached her in Surfside, Florida.

CO: Fiorella, can you describe the amount of damage you can see around that building?

FIORELLA TERENZI: Pretty consistent. I would say that half of the building collapsed. And as I speak, they are cutting through the concrete. And, unfortunately, the other half of the building that is still standing is not stable. So most likely, it will have to be torn down.

CO: When did you first know something was going on? What was your first alert?

FT: Last night, around probably 1:00 is a strange, loud sound, thundering like, but kept going. And then some metallic banging sound. A strange sound. I never heard of it. It woke me up and I went to the balcony because it wasn't a thundering, there were no lightning. But from the balcony, I could see the debris. And so I went to downstair around 1:30 a.m.

CO: And what did you see? What did you see at that point?

FT: At first I saw the side of the building that is still standing facing Collins Avenue, which is a major avenue parallel to the beach from north and south Miami Beach. So I couldn't understand what was the rumbling sound. Only when I crossed the street that's when I saw it. And you could see the concrete of the balcony, the drapes there, the steel, the bunk bed of children. It was also full moon night. So you could see clearly the disastrous situation.

CO: Any idea how many... how many... how many units, how many people must have lived there?

FT: Yeah, I actually counted on my own using the map of the building because of the three have the same layout. I counted, but I may be wrong, but I counted 72 units that collapsed.

CO: By the time you arrived, what was the situation for emergency crews responding?

FT: When I went to downstair, there were already police car, already firefighter. They were walking the perimeter of the building. They were assessing. It was a very rapid response. Within an hour, there were a line of ambulances stretching out across the street to the other block. So it was a very rapid response because of the severity and the gravity of this collapse.

CO: And could you see them recovering people from the rubble?

FT: I was able to see the stretcher, the paramedic running to the building. But between the dust that is settling, the people, the light, I could not see any rescue, but I didn't see also any one being brought back to an ambulance. And that made me worry quite a lot.

CO: Did you know anyone that lived in that building?

FT: Actually, I do. I have a friend and he lives on the side that faces Collins, so it didn't collapse. But he texted a photo of the hallway of the corridor because he tried to walk downstairs, but the corridor was collapsed. You can see the ceiling caving in and the hallway leaning at an angle like falling down, ready to fall down. So he was rescued through the balcony. He’s fine. He's under shock,

CO: but buildings just don't fall down, right? Especially ones that are... this is not really old. This is only in the 80s that it was built. So what are you hearing? What are the theories as to what happened?

FT: Well, the theory I heard there are you know, one that sounds good to me, sounds solid, is that there is a renovation. Every 40 years, the building has to be restored and then reapproved because of being oceanfront with a tropical storm, a hurricane. The buildings get the beat up. So every 40 years there is a certification. They started the renovation from the roof. So for several weeks, and next to the building, a crane was positioned. And the crane was bringing a lot of materials up to the roof. So perhaps this could be the reason. It's hard to say. It's hard to say. But Surfside, it's a great community, very safe, very nice people. We are devastated.

CO: And are you... are there concerns for other buildings, for your building? Are you affected by what happened?

FT: Well, yes, there are concerns because now, we are re-evaluating the criteria. So this building has to be checked and assessed for any damage — has to be re-evaluated also how we recertify a building.

CO: And do you have water and electricity? I understand it's been cut off in some places.

FT: No, no, no all society has no electricity. The water pumps can barely work, so we have just a little bit of water. So there is no electricity and then the generator is not working.

CO: It's just extraordinary. So tragic. And I'm… I’m hoping that there are more people who are safe from those numbers. Fiorella. And I... I appreciate that you’d speak with us. Thank you.

FT: I hope so. Thank you.

CO: Bye-bye.

CH: Fiorella Terenzi lives one building away from the collapsed condo. She spoke to us from Surfside, Florida.

[music: "99 Luftballons" by Nena/ German pop rock]

Maine Balloon Law

CH: This is Nena, with her 1983 single, "99 Luftballons". Now, you have to remember that the '80s were a different time. Back then, we could walk around with 99 helium balloons and no one thought anything of it. They'd just say, "Hey, nice balloons!" Or "Schöne luftballons", if we were in Germany. But times have changed. And it's time we let balloons go. Not literally. Because when we let them go, birds can get tangled in the strings. Or sea creatures mistakenly eat them. It's not at all festive. Which is why Maine is set to join a handful of states in enacting a balloon policy — with a very clear message: if you get your kicks releasing 16 or more balloons, you better knock it off. This is a wake-up call: once Maine's governor signs the bill, you'll be fined for releasing 16 to 24 balloons. And if you release more than 24, that's a 500-dollar fine right off the bat, so even don't bother arguing. Some of you may be wondering: "well, what if I release 1 to 15 balloons in Maine?" Well, first of all, stop looking for a loophole. Second...uh, well, there is no mention of any penalty for 15 or fewer balloons. So I guess that's... okay? Maybe lobbyists from Big Balloon got to someone in power? Still: if, for some reason, you wind up with a balloon — or two, or 16 or more — just hold on tightly, okay? Because if you let it go, the authorities might not.

[music: ambient]

Part 2: Trinity Bellwoods Resident, Britney Spears Hearing

Trinity Bellwoods Resident

Guest: Susan Gibson

CH: Trinity Bellwoods Park in Toronto is no longer dotted with groups of tents. But the city's action this week to clear an encampment has left a lot of people looking for a new place to call home. Police and city officials moved in — in force — on Tuesday. And promised to offer safe accommodation to people who have lived in the park for more than a year. Unfortunately, for many, that new accommodation turned out to be the shelter system they were escaping in the first place. Susan Gibson is one of the people who was removed from the park. We reached her in Toronto.

CO: Susan, first of all, have you found a place to sleep tonight?

SUSAN GIBSON: Due to a generous donation that's, I think, been channelled to help out myself as well as some of the other displaced people recently, I'm in a rather too luxurious hotel downtown for tonight anyway and for the last two nights. So I don't want to get too comfortable, though.

CO: [chuckling] How long will you be able to stay there?

SG: It's just sort of a one day at a time type of situation right now. The city won't have a permanent housing spot available to me in spite of what they said a couple of days ago.

CO: All right. When we spoke with a city spokesperson, Brad Ross, yesterday, and he said everybody who is in the park had been offered a place to stay. Is that true?

SG: For myself, their first offer to me was... was one of the shelters or shelter hotels. I advised them that for health and safety, personal health and safety reasons, that... that I could not and would not accept that option.

CO: Why not?

SG: One, I do have multiple chemical sensitivities. It's just personal safety concerns that I have experienced, unfortunately, in shelter, regular shelter situations. Luckily, short-term in the city before harassment from staff and other residents. And it's... it's not a comfortable place to try to deal with. And during the pandemic, being outside [chuckling] was... was a much healthier option.

CO: It's interesting you should say that because the city spokesperson, Brad Ross, he told us last night, he insists that you are safer in a shelter than you are in that tent. What would you say to him?

SG: Well, I would argue with him politely that I've been in the park for almost 11 months, since the beginning of August last year, and I have not had a safety issue whatsoever. And the fresh air was... was terrific. And I had a cat, [laughing], and he loved the outdoors, too. And you can't always take a pet into... a lot of the shelters don't take pets.

CO: But even having... sleeping in a tent in the winter, all those things, it's... it's still not a place to live, right? It's a place to stay.

SG: No, it was not... not a long-term solution for... for me or anybody. But given... given the COVID situation, and housing being very difficult to find in the first place, but... but even more... more difficult with... with less apartments being... being made available for showings and rentals during the more height of the pandemic. Yeah, I don't... I don't want to, and I never did want to, turn the park into my permanent residence.

CO: What was it like for you to see the arrival of dozens of armed police, some in paramilitary equipment. There were police on horseback. There were squad cars, drones, more than 100 private security that arrived for your camp of about, what... 25 people. What was that like?

SG: Outrageous. [chuckling] I... I think what is going on in this country that... that for a few homeless people, unarmed as far as I know, nothing, no violence going on, [chuckle] we were just trying to, you know, survive in this situation. And I just don't understand.

CO: Brad Ross said that this is... this park is for everyone to use. The residents in the area need to have access to it. That people can't... like you can't sleep there. That's the bottom line.

SG: Mm-hmm. Well, I've spoken to many residents who live in the neighbourhood. The vast majority of them supported our being able to remain camping in the park until... until the city provided us with affordable permanent housing or we were able to find housing on our own.

CO: Susan, do you mind if I ask you just personally about your background? And you can just [chuckle] say you don't want to. But I just I know you mentioned in one of the interviews and one of the tapes, you said that you were... you're a former national track and field athlete in the Javelin throw, right?

SG: Yeah. Seems like a --

CO: Can you tell us about... tell us about your... your sports, about your past?

SG: Well, it's a lifetime ago, but... but I do remember it well. And it was... it was a very enjoyable time, and it... kind of... kind of bittersweet that... that, one, I didn't make it to the Olympics. And two, I did... suffered with sexual assault during the time I was competing.

CO: I'm sorry that happened to you.

SG: Thank you. Aside from that, I completely enjoyed my career as you... as you might say, as a competitive athlete.

CO: You competed for Canada at a very high level, didn't you?

SG: I... I... I did compete in some international competitions in... in Canada, in Europe and in Venezuela. [chuckling] So I got some travelling out of it too, yeah.

CO: But what's it like to be treated like this by your city, by your country, now in terms of having a place to live, not to stay, but to live? How does it feel, given what you did and how you represented your country?

SG: Regardless of... of... of my history, I think I, we all, deserve housing. It's a human right. You look at what does the city do with a homeless cat or dog in the park? They take them in and put them in a proper shelter and take care of them and find them a home. Why can't we do that with people? [chuckle] I doesn't make sense.

CO: How long has it been since you've had an address?

SG: Really, it's been 2019 that I really had a real apartment. And, unfortunately, that... that... it's... it's hard to find a good home, a good landlord, and... and being... being on a fixed income is a struggle. But I'm hopeful that things will get better again.

CO: What's your cat's name?

SG: Lindsey, after Lindsey Buckingham from Fleetwood Mac.

CO: [both chuckle] Well, I hope that you and your cat Lindsey can finally have a place to live really soon, Susan. And I really appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

SG: Thank you so much.

CO: Bye.

SG: Bye now.

CH: We reached Susan Gibson in Toronto.

[music: ambient]

NS Border Blockade: MLA Removed

CH: Nova Scotia's Progressive Conservative party is taking action against one of its own MLAs over a highway blockade yesterday. Protesters blocked the Trans-Canada Highway to express their anger at Nova Scotia's quarantine rules for people arriving from New Brunswick. The highway was blocked for 24 hours — and some protesters voiced anti-vaccine messages. The MLA in question, Elizabeth Smith-McCrossin, said on Facebook that the Trans-Canada Highway would be shut down at the border until Premier Rankin removed the self-isolation requirements. Today, Nova Scotia PC leader Tim Houston talked about his decision to remove Ms. Smith-McCrossin from caucus.

SOUNDCLIP

TIM HOUSTON: It is important to me that Nova Scotians know we are a progressive party, so that's for sure. In terms of the... the types of people that were at the protest. I mean, they're not representative of our party. They're not representative of Nova Scotians.

REPORTER: Specific to Ms. Smith-McCrossin's actions, it was pretty clear what her actions were going to be as early as Tuesday. Yesterday, you told us that while you didn't support a blockade, you stood by her actions to give voice to her constituents. And now today, she's not a part of your party. What has happened over the last few days? And if things didn't change from her perspective, why is she only being kicked out now?

TH: I think the blockade is never appropriate. I mean, we've been very clear on that. It's just not appropriate to... to blockade... to block a highway. I mean, with goods and people and all of the stuff that's movements. We can't... we can't have that. I think what's changed since yesterday is, you know, Elizabeth was my colleague for four years. I wanted to have the opportunity as a caucus and as me personally to really understand her actions, her involvement and... and really what was happening... what was happening from her perspective. I wanted to give her that opportunity to... to really share details with us as to... as to... as to her involvement, as to what was happening. And the more that... the more that we learn more details that I learned about what was... how the blockade transpired, what happened at the blockade, the more I learned from Elizabeth about her involvement, the... the more obvious it became that it's not anything that I support. It's not anything that the PC caucus supports. So... so the more we learned, you know, when... when you... when you know more, you do more, right? So we had an ask of Elizabeth that we want her to take some accountability for her actions and to apologize to Nova Scotians, and she wouldn't do that. So between learning more and... and learning about where... where she stood now, in hindsight, it's just not something that we could support as a caucus or that I can support as a Nova Scotian. And so we took the action to remove her from caucus.

CH: That was Nova Scotia PC leader Tim Houston, talking about his decision to remove MLA Elizabeth Smith-McCrossin from caucus over her support of the protesters who blocked the Trans-Canada Highway yesterday. Today, Nova Scotia's premier lifted the quarantine and testing requirements for New Brunswickers who are fully vaccinated.

[music: horns!!!]

Britney Spears Hearing

Guest: Samantha Stark

CH: She's 39, performs in front of thousands of people, and is one of the best-known names in pop. But for the last 13 years, Britney Spears has been prevented from making basic decisions about her own life. Currently, her father and a bank control her finances, and her day-to-day activities are signed off on by a conservator. Well, now, Ms. Spears is trying to take back control. At an explosive hearing yesterday, she asked for the conservatorship to be stopped and said she's been traumatized by the arrangement. Samantha Stark is a New York Times journalist and the director of the documentary "Framing Britney Spears". We reached her in Los Angeles.

CO: Samantha, after all the speculation about Britney Spears being a prisoner in her own life, what was it like to finally hear her say it in her own words?

SAMANTHA STARK: We had done an investigation that published the day before, so we had gathered court documents that were confidential, that, you know, were leaked to us. And we were able to see that Britney had repeatedly said what she said today to the judge, to her lawyer. She wanted out of this. She found it abusive, oppressive. She wanted to have a baby, she said. A lot of the things that she echoed today, she felt forced into a mental health facility, forced to take lithium. We had seen all of that in court documents from 2014, 2016, 2019. So I think everyone was really shocked at what Britney was saying. But I wasn't because I knew all of that was true. What I was surprised by is the idea that she said I didn't know I could petition to end the conservatorship because that is 100 per cent the job of all those lawyers in there and that judge to make sure she knows that. And even more egregious is that Jamie Spears' — her dad's — lawyers have been saying Britney has always had the right to terminate this, but in 13 years, she hasn't exercised it. That's a statement they gave out.

CO: Wow! People remarking that... how it's not just what she said, but how she said it. She had so much to say. Her voice was very striking too. So this person making this passionate plea before a judge is quite something, isn't it?

SS: Absolutely. I mean, conservatorships are meant for people who can't feed, clothe or shelter themselves. And people who are really susceptible to undue influence is what they call it, which is hard to define. But it's often meant for people who have dementia, and maybe someone's trying to take their money from them. It's been odd this whole time that Britney's been in that and been able to perform as a pop star, making millions of dollars. When you heard her actually say what had been happening and making the point herself, she said, I'm providing for not only myself, but for everyone when I'm on tour and all of you, the lawyers. And she was so lucid and confident and, you know, spoke in the way that you or I would speak. And I think there's been this narrative for so long that, you know, Britney's like a little girl. She's... she has brain damage, whatever they're saying. And that is not what we heard.

CO: And, of course, during the whole time, that she's been in this conservatorship, this woman has produced extraordinary work, hasn't she? I mean, she was already one of the most successful pop stars at the beginning of this ordeal. She continued to work. She continued to be on stage, perform, to be in the world's eye. So how is it possible that during all this time, she was under this severe restriction of her father and a bunch of lawyers?

SS: I mean, that's what we have to investigate right now. Because it... you know, it appears that there's very little oversight in the system. What's written in the rule book we have found through our reporting is not what happens on the ground. She was saying that she had been coerced. She said that she feels like when she stands up for herself, she's punished, that her visits with her children get taken away — with her boyfriend. She said, I am a victim of human trafficking. And I know that because this is the definition of human trafficking, being, you know, forced to work against her will. You know, she said that. SAnd forced to take drugs, she said that. The most shocking thing to me that is still making me so worrying today as a human is that nobody even said we should investigate this. It doesn't feel like there's any oversight for retaliation in the system.

CO: I know it's complex, but if you could sum up what happened that led to this conservatorship even being put in place?

SS: We know that Britney Spears, you can see in our documentary, she was humiliated for years by the press. She was stalked by paparazzi. And I think we also saw that the media was framing her in such a way, that, you know, meltdown, all this stuff that wasn't taking into account what was happening outside the frame. She was having a custody battle. She had always been estranged from her father, afraid of her father, even as a child. And we know that he had been planning this conservatorship for weeks before it happened. We know that he was praying about it with his business manager, Lou Taylor of Tri-Star, who is now her business manager. We know that she was put on an emergency health hold in an ambulance but that it was premeditated because there was a police escort that took her there. And then the next day, the lawyers had all the filings in place. She was assigned a lawyer that she could not choose on that very first day, Sam Ingham, who is still her lawyer. And she wasn't allowed to come to the court hearing to defend herself.

CO: Right. And there's two parts to it, isn't? Not just... there's one for control over her life entirely. Another that controls her estate and her financial affairs. And so both held by her father?

SS: Both of them were held by her father for it's been 13 years. For almost 12 of those years, he served as a co-conservator over her money with a lawyer and licenced real estate agent, which is questionable because he's had bankruptcies in the past and hasn't managed his own money. He stepped down as her personal conservator at the end of 2019, after Kevin Federline, the father of Britney's children, got a restraining order against him for a physical altercation with her sons. A lot of what our investigative story that we released on Tuesday was talking about how did her father qualify to do this? Why was he chosen as the person to do this? And it really appears like if he didn't file for it, it doesn't seem like anybody else would have. So it might not be in this situation.

CO: There has been a huge "Free Britney" movement online for some time. Now that we've heard from her, is that movement looking like it had it right all along?

SS: I think so, absolutely. I mean, I was at the courthouse yesterday, and the reaction when she started talking and saying all this was people were sobbing. We took what the fans were saying seriously. And when you look into it, they were raising very serious and important questions about the conservatorship system. And what Britney said is a lot of what they've been saying this whole time.

CO: All right, Samantha, we'll leave it there. Lots more, I think, still to come out. But I appreciate getting this from you today. Thank you.

SS: Thank you.

CH: Samantha Stark is the director of the documentary "Framing Britney Spears", and a journalist with the New York Times. We reached her in Los Angeles.

[music: ambient]

PEI Travel Song

CH: Johnny Cash may have been to Reno, Chicago, Fargo, Minnesota, Buffalo, Toronto, Winslow, Sarasota, Wichita, Tulsa, Ottawa, Mattawa, et cetera… But did he ever get to Cardigan, Arlington, or Darlington, PEI? I'm guessing no. But Matt Corcoran did. Or so he claims in a home-spun cover of the Johnny Cash classic "I've Been Everywhere" — also famously recorded by Hank Snow. Mr. Corcoran posted his Island-inspired version online this week, and became an instant sensation. In part because of his impressive lack of trip-ups on the tongue-tripping song. But in part because, while he may have been everywhere on PEI, most of us haven't been anywhere. In forever. Now the prospects are looking up... with the Atlantic bubble back. And soon enough, the region will reopen to even more Canadian travelers. So, in advance, here's Matt Corcoran — with a few travel suggestions when we're finally able.

SOUNDCLIP

[sound: a guitar strum]

MATT CORCORAN: Hello, I'm not Johnny Cash. However, I'll be taking a well-known Johnny Cash tune, “I've Been Everywhere”, where he lists 92 different places that he's visited. And I figured I'd give her an old... little old P.I. twist and shake, as I like to call her. So, ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to list off, try to anyway, 97 different places that you can go visit sometime when you're on the island or if you're from away and you're coming over for a visit this summer. Why don't you check these places out? Ladies and gentlemen, I give to you, “I've Been Everywhere”. PEI edition. Holy smokes. All right.

MATT CORCORAN: [singing] I was sitting in Port Elgin, in the traffic line to PEI. On my way from Costco, what a wicked deal on triple-ply, a car pulls up beside me. They had their hard top down. I could tell the happy couple we're both from out of town. They asked if this was my first time on the island, too. I said no. May I suggest some places since you folk are new. I've been everywhere, man, I've been everywhere, man, I’ve roamed the red sands bare man. Seen Green Gables and Anne. You want to know where I've been, man, well, I've been everywhere. Is it just me, or is it getting hot in here. Wouldn’t mind to take a dip in somewhere. I’ve been to Mill River, Vernon River. Murray River, Grand River, Trout River, West River, Bear River, Clyde River, Bell River, Flat River. Morell Brudenell, Hillsboro, Fox River, Malpeque

[singing fades]

CH: From Matt Corcoran's Facebook page to your radio, this is his cover of "I've Been Everywhere". you’re listening to “As It Happens” on CBC Radio One and PRX. We’re also on Facebook and Twitter, both: @cbcasithappens, all one word.

SOUNDCLIP

MC: [singing] Wanna know where I’ve been man. I’ve been everywhere man. I’ve been everywhere.

MC: After that dip in the river, I could sure go for a… I don’t know, an ice cream cone or a snack somewhere. There’s going to be a corner store around somewhere, isn’t there? Well, I’ve been to Pools Corner, Palls Corner, Cooks corner, [too fast to keep up with. I am sorry]

Part 3: Venice UNESCO, Encore: Terms and Conditions

Venice UNESCO

Guest: Marco Baravalle

CH: The United Nations' heritage office has put Venice on notice. If the world's most beautiful city doesn't start sending cruise ships somewhere else, UNESCO is going to put its canals and piazzas on its list of "World Heritage in danger". Italy's culture minister seemed to welcome the news, saying, "there is no more time to waste." But this isn't the first time that Marco Baravalle has heard promising words from politicians. Mr. Baravalle is part of the anti-cruise ship group Comitato No Grandi Navi. We reached him in Venice.

CO: Marco, what do you make of UNESCO's threat to put Venice on its endangered list?

MARCO BARAVALLE: I think they're right. I mean, UNESCO is trying to warn the Italian government and the city council too many times about the danger to be put in a blacklist if the big ships don't leave the Giudecca canal. And so I think that after years and years of just, you know, not taking the final decision about it, I think UNESCO is right in threatening to put Venice on the blacklist.

CO: OK. Tell us about the Giudecca canal and what the cruise ships want to do with it?

MB: Listen, the point is that until today, cruise ships are docking inside the historical city of Venice. They pass in front of San Marco. And then, to get to the port, they have to go through the canale Giudecca ê the Giudecca canal. And this is a very dangerous, dangerous path for the big ships because these ships are so huge and the canal in comparison is very, very small. And that's why also one big cruise ship crashed exactly just after the canale Giudecca. So the passage there is not safe at all. And it was... we were lucky two years ago that there were no serious casualties. Then, there are many other problems with big cruise ships. They're polluting the air. Unfortunately, the Port of Venice is not equipped with the technology called cold ironing, which is basically the electrification of the docks, which would allow the ships when they're dock to turn off, turn off the engines. So basically, when the cruise ships come, they keep their engine on. So, of course, the air around Venice is very polluted by the big cruise ships. And also, I think they're... I think they're most arrogant of the tourist economy, which has been very harmful in relation to the... to the city.

CO: Wow. OK, that's quite a litany. What was the reaction then, I guess, just about a month ago? We didn't see these huge cruise ships during the pandemic. But then this 1000 passenger ship, the MSC Orchestra, showed up just, I guess, last month. How did people in Venice react to that?

MB: There was rage because it looks like the pandemic didn't teach us anything. You know, the pandemic, of course, it was a tragedy because of the cost in human lives, because of the financial impact on the city. But, really, it showed how this touristic model of development is so fragile. And if you... if you invest the whole economy of the city on tourism, then when something happens, I mean, the city just goes bankrupt in one year. So I think the general reaction was a reaction of... of... of rage because it looks like the people that are now in power in the city council and also the people at the central government in Rome are not going for a real solution. And, in fact, there's a paradox here because the government issued a new law. And this new law says that big cruise ships need to go outside the lagoon — this is what we ask. But on the other side, they said that until there is no final solution, the cruise ships can still pass in front of San Marco and in the canale Giudecca. So we are in this strange situation.

CO: You mentioned Venice is a tourist city. This is where it gets its commerce from. And are there people in Venice who support the idea of these cruise ships arriving?

MB: I would lie if I would say that there are not people supporting cruises in Venice. Of course, there are people working at the Port of Venice, and they're happy about seeing big ships coming back. But the point is that, Comitato, we don't even ask these ships to be cancelled in Venice. We only ask for moving the port outside the lagoon. So this would basically save the environment and would also preserve the jobs that are created around this business of... of big cruise ships. At the same time, I think there is one figure that explains the tragedy of tourism in Venice. In the 70s, the historical city, I mean the island of Venice, had more than 100,000 residents. Now, we are 49,000. And this was not because of pandemic or because of some nuclear bomb. It was because of tourism.

CO: You and the Comitato, you have support from a lot of sources. You got Mick Jagger and Tilda Swinton writing letters. Italy's culture minister says there's no time to waste. You have support inside and outside. So what... doesn't the Italian government or the Venetian government, aren't they willing to do something about these cruise ships?

MB: You should ask the minister. This minister... the now... the minister of culture now says we don't have to waste time. He was the minister of culture for the last three different governments, and cruise ships are still passing. And so, unfortunately, we lost our faith in the words of politicians of both sides, whether it would be right-wing or left-wing. We really need now concrete solutions. This is what the city has before, and the city is asking for it for the last 10 years. You know, in a way, we are sick of... of talking, and we really need this realistic roadmap for a new port outside the lagoon. Because there is also the problem of some so-called alternative solutions that are suggested that would remove the port from Venice to Marghera. Marghera is the industrial Port of Venice still inside the lagoon of Venice. And this would be also a problem because to adapt the industrial port to host the cruise ships, they need to dig new canals. And digging new canals in the lagoon is like building a highway or a freeway, you know, in a forest. It would be an ecological disaster. So what we ask for is that these ships go outside the lagoon.

CO: Marco, you have a beautiful city. I hope you're able to preserve it and the lagoon system. I know there's lots of other threats to it as well. So I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

MB: Thank you very much.

CH: Marco Baravalle is a member of the anti-cruise ship organization Comitato No Grandi Navi. We reached him in Venice. And we've got more on that story on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: 60s Brit pop]

Missing Peacock

CH: Sometimes you just want to feel the wind in your lush tailfeathers. But I hope Deb McDougall's peacock got it out of his system — because he's back at home in the Kamloops, British Columbia area, after taking to the road. A few weeks back, Ms. McDougall noticed the creature was missing from her cattle ranch. And then she'd learn it hitched not one, but two rides, on a logging truck. Here's what she told the CBC about that journey.

SOUNDCLIP

DEB MCDOUGALL: Well, it's really funny because we found him... first, he ventured two kilometres away. And peacocks don't really fly, so we kind of wondered what was going on. And then a friend of ours said she saw our peacock, who we were calling Slippery Pete, up on a logging truck. And then a couple of days later, and then we walked the peacock home two kilometres.

DOUG HERBERT: Oh, wow, OK.

DM: And then, a couple of days later, people were posting on Facebook that there was this peacock in downtown Heffley Creek, which is 10 kilometres from our house. And so then the story broke. I think that day, MacGillivray took all the pictures and that. And so it was quite the adventure getting them home.

DH: OK, so... so, MacGillivray, you mentioned. He's the logging truck driver?

DM: Yeah. And so they were logging near our house on Knut's Lake Road, and the trucks would stop just outside our driveway and, you know, do inspections or check chains or whatever. And so our peacock, he likes two things. He likes to be up high, and he loves shiny things because he can see his reflection in it. So I think the logging truck being right there was just too tempting for him. And he hopped up and around, and off he went.

DH: So he may... this may have actually been his second ride on a logging truck after you discovered him?

DM: Yes, I believe so. Yeah, because, I mean, we don't know how else. He would get 10 kilometres away from home, and... and we took... we spent days and countless of people trying to capture him in nets. And it was just a horror show because he was on the busy Sun Peaks Highway.

CH: That was BC's Deb McDougall speaking to the CBC's Doug Herbert on "Daybreak Kamloops".

[music: jazz]

Encore: Terms and Conditions

CH: At the beginning of the pandemic, when we were still making bread and "all in it together," some wag made an inspiring, or depressing, claim. Quote, "Just a reminder that when Shakespeare was quarantined because of the plague, he wrote 'King Lear'." Unquote. Now, whether or not that is true is up for debate. What is not up for debate is that we did not need a reminder that watching 18 hours of Netflix is not the same as creating a great work of art. Now, there were masterpieces. Like the scientist who used his pandemic downtime to optimize banana slice placement on bread. But some artists don't need the world to shut down to create art — even from the most banal elements of their surroundings. In 2015, U.S. cartoonist Robert Sikoryak turned the entire contents of the iTunes Terms and Conditions into a graphic novel. From our archives, here he is speaking with Carol.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Robert, what inspired you to make this turgid piece of prose entertaining?

ROBERT SIKORYAK: Well, thank you for saying it's entertaining, first of all. I am a cartoonist who specializes in adapting classic literature into the style of famous popular comics. And generally, what I do with my comics is I tend to take long prose books and boil them down into shorter form comics. I'm working on a Moby Dick adaptation [CO laughs] now as well, and that... that will be abridged, as is my… as is my way.

CO: And now, I can see Moby Dick that this could be something that could sustain your interest. But the entire contents of the iTunes terms and conditions is not exactly inspiring.

RS: Well, it was inspiring to me for a number of reasons. There is a trend in American comics these days to have long-form comics. And I grew up reading comic strips and even comic books, which were 32 pages long. So I was really interested in the form of the graphic novel, the long-form... the long form comic. And as is my want, I was looking for the most absurd thing to adapt. And in this case, I'm not adapting it. It's unabridged. [CO laughs] it's all of the words. So I was... and it's famously a joke that it's very long, and it's also famously a joke that no one ever reads it. So like Moby Dick and many other books, I thought it was time to put it into a form that maybe people would like to read.

CO: All right. You've posted, so far, 40 pages. And there's this star of each different section is, of course, Steve Jobs himself. And you go through many different styles. Maybe just describe what people would see in this graphic novel?

RS: Well, the thing you would see is that each page is inspired by a different comic strip or a different comic book. And I've tried to select pages and styles that will be familiar to people from around the world. There's one page of this... this... this bespectacled character flying around, and he looks like Astro Boy [CO laughs]. And he's reciting what happens if you register for an iClick. Or the next page, or a page later, there's a character who's a dog by a dog house with a scruffy beard and a black turtleneck. And he is talking about pre-orders and family sharing and so on and so forth. So what I tried to do is I tried to take dynamic storytelling from other cartoonists and apply it to this text, which has no narrative momentum, no easy visuals to apply and resist reading. So I was trying to sort of find a balance between these very appealing iconic characters of comic strips, and this text, which is... is hard to break down into... into word balloons, let alone actually read.

CO: And so... and as you say, this character, this black turtlenecked, bearded fellow, of course, Steve Jobs, becomes in some cases you go through a number of superheroes. But he's also the villain sometimes. And he's... I see he's Dennis the Menace, and I think he's Archie, Popeye. And I think there's Jonny Quest in there, though I'm not sure.

RS: There's many adventure strips. He's the Incredible Hulk. He is Archie. He is Calvin. He is Little Nemo. He is Fin from Adventure Time and so on and so forth. So one of the fun things of doing this was, like I say, sort of finding all these old — and new — great comics to use as source material for the... for the... for the text. I was very lucky when I chose the iTunes terms and conditions that there was actually an icon from the company who dresses like a superhero and has a very particular costume. Unlike most heads of corporations, he has a very distinct look that would... that would be recognizable through all of these different incarnations, all these different characters.

CO: Can you just give without boring... [chuckling] boring us to death, give us a little sample of the actual text that you have so, so painstakingly recorded in your graphic novel?

RS: So. All right. I will read from my graphic novel. [reading] This legal agreement between you and Apple Inc. — Apple — governs your use of the Mac App Store, App Store and iBook Store services, parentheses the app and ebook services. Shall I go on?

CO: [laughing] No, please don't.

RS: That was half of one caption.

CO: [chuckling] And how many pages does it actually run to, the whole terms and conditions?

RS: Well, when I started, I thought it would be 70 pages. I actually started it late last year, and I thought it would be 70 pages. And to my horror, in June, they not only updated the terms and conditions, but they actually added a Part C. [CO laughs] So it went from 70 pages to 94 pages. Luckily, I didn't have too much text to read it from the earlier draft. The changes they made for Parts A, B and C were very minor. It was easy to update the text.

CO: One that we just... we... we kind of took to was.. you… you... and because you imitate the styles of all of them, including Kate Beaton, a Canadian cartoonist, can you just tell us about that one? If you can recall?

RS: I've known Kate for a long time, and I'm a big fan of her work. And I was very excited to have the opportunity to parody her work. So I chose three of her strips from her first book, "Hark A Vagrant", and... and they were sequential strips from her book. And they all feature a teenager from the Middle Ages. And I've put him in the Steve Jobs gear, the outfit, and he's... and he's reciting... I forget whether he's in Part C or Part B, but in any case --

CO: [laughing] It hardly matters.

RS: He's playing... he's playing his role. He's playing his role, explaining third-party materials and objectionable material. Those are his to the two key points.

CO: All right. We'll give people all the links they need in order to see the work. And it's great fun. Thanks, Robert.

RS: Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

CO: Bye-bye.

RS: Bye.

CH: From November 2015, that was U.S. cartoonist Robert Sikoryak speaking with Carol about how he turned iTunes Terms and Conditions agreement into a graphic novel. And you can see some pages from that work of art on our webpage: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: jazz]

‘Ideas’ promo: Ibn Khaldun

CH: The 14th-century North African philosopher Ibn Khaldun is often thought of as a precursor to Adam Smith. But his most enduring contribution was his theory of civilization. One of things he talked about was that urban and non-urban populations were necessary opposing forces — leading to the formation and decline of societies.

SOUNDCLIP

BRUCE LAWRENCE: So he saw the people who were not urban or sophisticated, not the leading members of the state, if you will, the illiterates, rather than the literates, as contributing to what became civilization. So the typical urban... urban reflex of people, even today, is to say, oh, if you aren't educated, if you don't know how to read and write, if you haven't got a certain position in society, if you haven't had the ability above all, to travel to see other people, either in your mind or in real life different from yourself, that you're not an educated and you're not a civilized person. For Ibn Khaldun, civilization had many parts, and one of the parts was being a nomad where you didn't have literacy, and you didn't have urban rights or urban benefits, but you still had a certain notion of collective integrity. And, in fact, when he looks at society and looks at society over time, he says that this instinct for having what some people call a barbarian or poor, urban or not urban instinct and way of life, that that's an essential corrective to the opulence and the corruption which he sees in urban society.

CH: That was Bruce Lawrence, retired professor of religious studies from Duke University, talking about Ibn Khaldun and his theory of civilization. That's tonight on "Ideas" with Nahlah Ayed, after "As It Happens".

[music: world music]

FOA: Vagina Tunnel + Museum

CH: Like a lot of celebrities' homes, actor and supermodel Cara Delevingne's LA abode is fairly bizarre. Unlike a lot of celebrities' homes, its interior design features some very interior design. In a recent video, Ms. Delevingne gave "Architectural Digest" a tour of her new Alice in Wonderland-inspired house. It starts out pretty ordinary. There's some cool artwork, a see-through piano, and a mini scooter so she can get around the giant mansion. Then we head to the games room, where there is a Playboy pinball machine. So far, so medium eccentric. But then, Ms. Delevigne opens up a hidden door behind a mirror, to reveal a soft pink opening:

SOUNDCLIP

CARA DELEVINGE: So this is my vagina tunnel. Shall I go through? I’m going to go through. Oh, God! And then you're inside. You want to come in, Alfie? Come on, baby. I come in here to think. I come in here to create. I feel inspired in the vagina tunnel. So, I'm going to show you where this lovely labia leads. See you there! Oh God, Leo, watch out.

[music: royalty-free upbeat beat]

CD: Oh, my gosh! Shush! Oh, oh, oh. See, rebirthed and re-cleansed.

[/sc]

CH: That was actor Cara Delevingne and her dog, Alfie, emerging from a vagina tunnel into her bedroom. She went on to show the therapeutic ball pit, and the David Bowie memorial bathroom. But the vagina tunnel stuck with us. And it got us thinking about a 2019 interview with the founder of London's Vagina Museum, which was just about to open. From our archives, here is Carol speaking with Florence Schechter.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Florence, is the world really ready for a vagina museum?

FLORENCE SCHECHTER: If it was ready, it would be too late to make one. [CO and FS chuckle] I think kind of the whole reason that we're making it is because it's needed, you know? So we still get a lot of giggles, and a lot of people saying oh my God, I can't believe you're doing that! But that's kind of why we need it really.

CO: You have a crowd funding campaign and a video. Can you describe to people how you're dressed up?

FS: Yeah. So we put on what is essentially a vulva suit. It was like a dress-up costume where it turns your whole body into a vulva, and your head is the clitoris. I was a lot of fun — very warm.

CO: Now, you're saying something very important because it's a vulva costume, and that there is always this discussion about that people don't know that there is a vulva and a vagina. And so your vagina museum also includes vulvas, I presume?

FS: Yes, exactly. Yeah, the name was quite difficult because the museum is going to be about everything from the ovaries and the uterus, to the clitoris, and the labia, and everything in between. So the most accurate sort of name would actually be the gynecological museum. [CO chuckles] But obviously that sounds super gross. Like who would go to that except like medical students? So we were trying to think what where can we use that's actually accessible? And we got down to vagina and vulva. Where vagina is just like the bit put things up, and then babies come out nine months later. Or you can put all sorts of things up there. And then the vulva is the outside bits. So it's what you see on the external genitalia. And what we found is that very few people know the words vulva. So if we were to call it the vulva museum, a lot of people would just kind of ignore it. They would say oh, I don't know what that is. It must not be relevant to me and walk on by. And the people who would know what it is like you know they already know it a lot.

CO: Do you think that women as well who don't know the difference between a vulva and a vagina?

FS: Oh, loads, loads. I read that one in five women in the U.K. don't know that they pee and menstruate from different holes. I think there's a huge lack of knowledge.

SOUNDCLIP

CH: From September 2019, that was Carol speaking with Florence Schechter, the founder of London's Vagina Museum.

[music: indie rock]

Ellen McIlwaine Obit

CH: From a young age, singer and guitarist Ellen McIlwaine knew she didn't want to be on the sidelines — she wanted to be centre stage. So in the 1960s, she formed a band called Fear Itself. She said that name described how she felt to be just 22 years old, playing lead guitar and lead singer in a band with a bunch of dudes. But Ms. McIlwaine clearly got over her fear. She went on to become a mainstay in New York City's Greenwich Village scene, even opening for Jimi Hendrix. She became so known for her legendary slide guitar skills. People called her "the Goddess of Slide." Ellen McIlwaine died yesterday. She was 75. After stints in Japan, Nashville and New York City, she eventually settled in Calgary. Today, CBC's "Saturday Night Blues" host Holger Peterson talked about his friendship with Ms. McIlwaine.

SOUNDCLIP

HOLGER PETERSON: She started in the mid-60s, getting attention when she was in Greenwich Village. And when she was in Greenwich Village, she was very active on that scene playing, you know, the... the…. the best coffee houses and that sort of thing. And eventually, got to know a lot of people. The fact that she was in New York, Greenwich Village at the same time that Hendrix was there just before he went to England to become, you know, the international superstar. But, yeah, she played with Jimi Hendrix in New York.

DAVID GRAY: You talk about her playing with the greats and signing with big record labels early on. And... and then at one point, she was driving a school bus in Calgary, wasn't she?

HP: I know! For nine years, the last nine years, right up until last month, really, she was driving a school bus. She told me that... that just before COVID, some students figured out who she was. They found her videos on YouTube. They realized who she was. And one of the... the teachers at one of the schools invited her to come and talk to the kids and bring her guitar and play a couple of tunes. And she was really looking forward to that. And then, of course, COVID, you know?

DG: what's her musical legacy, if I could ask it that way?

HP: Ellen grew up in Japan. So what she heard was, you know, American rhythm and blues on the radio, but also, you know, music from Japanese culture. She spoke Japanese. When she started to play guitar and slide guitar, that kind of influence came into her playing, but especially in her singing. She had a huge voice, and did that kind of scat singing. And her approach to scat singing was to... to sing in Japanese and... and Japanese words and syllables. And... and that made her totally unique.

DG: What will you think about her as you look back? What will your thoughts be, not only as a musician but as a... as a... as an acquaintance?

HP: I think her... her strengths, her nobility, her attitude, she was really an international profile artist who, you know, wasn't getting a lot of work, wasn't getting the kind of respect she deserved. And it was, you know, largely timing and this and that. But she had a great attitude about life. And one of the last things she said to me was that don't take anything for granted.

CH: That was CBC's "Saturday Night Blues" host Holger Peterson, speaking to host David Gray of the "Calgary Eyeopener" today. Musician Ellen McIlwaine died yesterday. She was 75.

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June 24, 2021 Episode Transcript

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