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The AIH Transcript for June 23, 2021

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello, I’m Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is “As It Happens”.

[music: theme]

CH: Tonight:

CH: Bursting their bubble. We asked Nova Scotia Premier Iain Rankin about his 11th-hour decision to restrict travel from New Brunswick — and the protests that decision ignited.

CO: A tents situation. The city of Toronto defends its move to evict people living in an encampment in the downtown park — and says, despite the show of police force, that it's genuinely trying to help them.

CH: The virtual reality. As school winds down, we check in with an Ontario high school teacher whose biggest fear last fall was crowded classrooms — until remote learning moved in, and stayed.

CO: The devil's in the details. Researchers in Australia say efforts by conservation authorities to save endangered Tasmanian devils are endangering other species in the process.

CH: And... grey hair-ea. New research suggests there's a brief window in our lives when our grey hair can revert to its original colour — but I have to stress that you have to not be stressed.

CH “As It Happens”, the Wednesday edition. Radio that suggests you get busy living with grey hair or get busy dying.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: NS Border Protest, Iain Rankin: NS Travel, Kingston Teacher Check-in

NS Border Protest

Guest: Gary Stein

CH: Today was supposed to be different. It was supposed to be the day that Nova Scotia opened its borders with Prince Edward Island, Newfoundland and Labrador, and New Brunswick — restoring the Atlantic COVID bubble in all its glory. But yesterday afternoon, Nova Scotia Premier Iain Rankin announced that New Brunswickers wouldn't be allowed into the bubble after all. At least, not without continuing to self-isolate upon arrival. And since last night, demonstrators have been blocking traffic on both sides of the Nova Scotia/New Brunswick border in protest. Gary Stein is a long-haul trucker from New Glasgow, who managed to extricate himself from that blockade and cross into Nova Scotia this afternoon — after a 12-hour delay. We reached him shortly thereafter.

CO: Gary, first of all, where are you right now?

GARY STEIN: Right now, I'm in Debert, Nova Scotia.

CO: And when were you able to cross over the border?

GS: I got... I crossed over it was about 45 minutes ago, but I wasn't able to cross over at the main border crossing on the Trans Canada. I actually had to go about 13 kilometres out of my way and cross into a rural part of Nova Scotia.

CO: Can you just tell us a bit about what happened last night when you arrived at the New Brunswick-Nova Scotia border heading into Nova Scotia on the Trans Canada?

GS: Well, I came up from Prince Edward Island, and once I got up to Aulac, something kind of odd looked because all the ramps had pylons across them. So I couldn't even get onto the Trans Canada. So from that point, I was stuck because I couldn't get on the highway and found out that the protesters had moved their protest right back to the border. So, unfortunately, I had to stop in Aulac, and I've been there most of the day, all day today.

CO: And Aulac is, just for people to know, that's in New Brunswick. And you're heading into Nova Scotia.

GS: Yes, you can actually see the windmills. RIght at the Nova Scotia border, they have the wind farm there. You can actually look at the windmills from where I was.

CO: How frustrating was that?

GS: Extremely frustrating because I have a job to do. Like... like most truck drivers and... and everybody else that... that goes between both provinces on a regular basis, I find it very frustrating.

CO: And I guess because you also didn't know until the last moment, right? Because the Nova Scotia Premier, Iain Rankin, just the very last moment, walked back his decision to let travellers from New Brunswick go into Nova Scotia without quarantine. That's what you got caught in, right?

GS: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I had no... I had no prior warning or anything like that. I actually found out about it when I was on Prince Edward Island that they had blocked the road up by Oxford. That's why I thought I'm OK to get to Amherst, but things change in a hurry.

CO: So what do you make of the... of the Nova Scotia premier's announcement and the timing of his announcement?

GS: To be quite honest with you, I think it's stupidity. I think... I think this whole thing for the last year and a half has been too politically charged. When you have opposition party... or opposing parties, there's... there's always going to be a political debate on who's right and who's wrong. It's the federal government that needs to tell the provincial governments this is what you need to do to protect yourself.

CO: Right.

GS: But we've been going through this for over a year now — like there's no common sense to it and there's no rhyme or reason.

CO: Well, I guess it's the difference that the different powers that the governments have. And they... in the provinces, different provinces have had different success keeping the virus down, right? Nova Scotia has done an extremely good job. They have extremely low rates of infection. And so a lot of people in Nova Scotia think that Premier Rankin's doing the right thing by... by being so strict at the border. What do you say to them?

GS: Yeah, but those people never leave Nova Scotia. That's the problem. If they never leave the province, they look at the job that the premier is doing and say, yup, great job. But what they don't realize is that people are coming in and out of this province by the thousands every day, from all parts of North America, because of the essential service side of things. So what I don't understand is the premier is putting a restriction on the province next to them only for the simple fact of New Brunswick said we're going to let the rest of Canada come in in New Brunswick as long as you can prove that you've had at least one vaccination. That makes sense to me, OK? But restricting... restricting Nova Scotians and people from New Brunswick from going back and forth, whether it be work-related or anything else, is utter stupidity. It makes no sense.

CO: Now, you are an essential worker, right? So you --

GS: Yes.

CO: What do you... what are the restrictions that you face? Because you've been travelling across this border and across this country.

GS: I don't have any.

CO: So just... just tell people what it is for you to cross?

GS: I don't... I don't get stopped at the border entrance. I don't get asked questions at the border entrance. I'm essential service. I just go right through. I am supposed to look at myself, make sure I have no symptoms or anything like that. If I develop symptoms, then being the responsible adult that I am, I would then get tested. If it comes back positive, I would then self-isolate. But I'm an adult, so I don't need somebody to tell me what to do. I don't... I have to protect everybody, including myself. So if... if you're responsible and you do what you need to do, I'm responsible, and I do what I have to do. And if everybody just took responsibility for their own actions, then we wouldn't be in this mess.

CO: Now, Gary, you know that we're talking to you mid-afternoon here.

GS: Yes.

CO: And Premier Higgs and Premier Rankin, they're supposed to meet this afternoon. So what are you hoping that those two men sort out about this?

GS: Stop trying to figure out who's got the biggest pool cue. Enough! You know what? Do what's best for the two provinces. Do what's best for the people in those two provinces, OK? And if vaccines are the way that we're supposed to go, and people have got a vaccine, and... and New Brunswick is allowing those people to come in, why not just work together and adopt the same policy for Atlantic Canada? Do what's best for everybody?

CO: Well, we'll see if those two premiers can stop [chuckling] trying to prove who has the bigger pool cue [GS chuckles] and see if they can work this out. Gary, safe travels and thanks for speaking with us.

GS: Carol, you have a great day.

CO: You, too. Bye-bye.

GS: Bye-bye.

CH: Gary Stein is a long-haul trucker from New Glasgow, Nova Scotia. We reached him earlier this afternoon in Debert, Nova Scotia.

[hard transition into next segment]

Iain Rankin: NS Travel

Guest: Iain Rankin

CH: Iain Rankin is Nova Scotia's Premier. We reached him in Halifax.

CO: Premier Rankin, you just got off the phone with New Brunswick's Blaine Higgs and the other Atlantic premiers. Did you come to any kind of consensus?

IAIN RANKIN: No, but I thought it was important that... that we reach out and have a conversation about what we're all working on and what we're all trying to achieve. I made a decision based on the advice of Dr. Strang to reopen slowly. And because that province opened to the rest of the country, and we didn't have certainty over their border measures, we do have modified isolation in place as of today for New Brunswickers and Nova Scotians that visit New Brunswick. But I'll continue to have the conversation with... with Premier Higgs and the other premiers to learn about what... what else they're prepared to do to provide information to us and continue to explore options so that we can have that conversation about Atlantic Canada travel.

CO: Right, but they provided information. It was public that this is what New Brunswick was going to do. It was going to allow people in on this reduced protocol for... for... for many days now. So what's really alarmed people is that you waited till the 11th-hour to tell people that you were not going to allow New Brunswick to be part of the bubble. You weren't going to allow people to come in under the same terms. Why didn't you tell them earlier?

IR: As soon as I found out that they were opening to the rest of the country, I was clear that we had to review the plan. I am learning more about their border measures in fairness to them. So that is good. We want to learn more about how they're validating the one dose of vaccine that they're requiring. We'll continue to have that conversation. But the decision was made after much thought and consideration of what their epidemiology is, which is better than other provinces, and that's why the isolation requirement is modified.

CO: OK, but --

IR: You have two shots. You just need a test, and you don't have to self-isolate, for example.

CO: Right, but... but you've known that for a week, you've known that New Brunswick was going to change its procedures. You've known that for a week. Why, at the last moment, when people expected this to happen today, why did you not let people know earlier? That's what has really rankled a lot of those people who are at the border protesting right now.

IR: Well, I think it's more than just that if you look at the videos from the border. Some of them are protesting even vaccines. But we were fair in saying that we were looking at the situation in New Brunswick. I said on all my interviews that we would have to review what their border protection is and what our comfort level is, what our vaccine uptake is for second dose. This is about the Delta variant. And we're still in constant dialogue with my counterparts. But public safety is first, and we'll continue to be in lock step with public health teams in this province as we roll out our slow and cautious opening plan.

CO: Did you tell Premier Higgs earlier than he learned with the public? Did you let him know these were going to be your plans?

IR: So those are the conversations we're having right now. And, you know, P.E.I asks to have a mandatory one shot when they go in and a test. So we all are a little bit different. And if New Brunswick can provide more clarity and where we're working on this, so those conversations are ongoing. And, of course, I said we'd be flexible with the time. And that's why the 23rd was a flexible date. It was originally June 30th for the Atlantic region for our Phase 3. So we've advanced it by a week. We're just making a modification right now for those coming in and out of a province that has more opening to Canadians that... that we haven't had.

CO: Meanwhile, back at the border, I just heard an interview with a… one of the protest organizers, Jen Moody, who says that they plan to stay at the border and... and try to keep it closed until you change your mind. So what are you going to do about that?

IR: I understand that there is law enforcement up there. They did have a release, and they're trying to ask and collaborate with dismantling the blockage. It's against the law to block a highway. So I would ask those that are breaking the law to stop. And other politicians, opposition politicians in the Conservative Party, need to help us because they helped start this blockage. It makes no sense to protest. People that want to have the border open are protesting by blocking the border. They're putting safety at risk. They're putting jobs at risk. People can't access health care services from other provinces. There is a lot at stake, and I am not going to change because a select few decide that they are going to put their own interests in front of the collective public interest in the safety of Nova Scotians. But I'll continue to speak with my counterparts. And if we have the right assurances that we have the right mechanisms at their border, and we have our own checking system that's in place, then we'll be flexible and reasonable as we always have been.

CO: Premier Rankin, thank you.

IR: Thanks so much for your time.

CO: Bye-bye.

IR: Bye.

CH: Iain Rankin is the Premier of Nova Scotia. He's in Halifax.

[music: ambient]

Kingston Teacher Check-in

Guest: James Griffith

CH: Sometimes, the school year feels like it's flown by. But for high school teacher James Griffith, this year has felt utterly interminable. Mr. Griffith teaches a History of Law course for Grade 10, 11, and 12 students at Frontenac Secondary School in Kingston, Ontario. We spoke to him last September at the start of the school year when he was preparing to teach a packed, not-very-distanced classroom of thirty-plus students. He was also bracing himself for the dreaded "octomester." That's a school year split into eight sections, where every section focuses on a single course. Fast-forward to this week: he and his virtual classroom are crawling towards the finish line on Friday... the last day of school. So we decided to check back in with James Griffith to see how the school year went. We reached him in Kingston.

CO: James, what words would you use to describe this past school year?

JAMES GRIFFITH: [laughing] Confusing, depressing, alienating, frustrating. I suppose the list could go on. [laughing again]

CO: What was the hardest part?

JG: I think the hardest part was the complete separation from the aspect of what I do, really, which is talk to kids, connect with kids. None of that existed. It was a very alienating, solo experience. And I care not to ever do it again. [chuckle]

CO: When we spoke with you in September, among the many concerns you had is that the classrooms were going to be very crowded. That it was not like in other places where they were limiting the numbers of students. You were going to have not much distancing, and that was bad enough. But I guess by halfway through, you... in a weird way, you got your wish. And then the kids were learning virtually. How much worse was that?

JG: Yeah, certainly not what... not my wish to go that way. Teaching virtually was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do as a teacher. And, you know, I... there are two classes, maybe three classes out of the six that I teach that I literally, for the first time in 20 years, don't know a single one of those kids, even though I was with them for five weeks per course. It's a weird experience because all I'm doing when it's virtual is staring at my laptop screen, which is just a bunch of circles and initials. They don't turn the cameras on their microphones. And I talk at them and scream into the void for a while and hope that something's getting through and getting very few responses.

CO: So it was bad enough to have a classroom full of kids wearing masks where you couldn't fully see their faces. You didn't see their faces at all in this case?

JG: That's right, yes. The classes that I did have, they're kids that I have no idea who they are because I've only ever seen the... the whites of their eyes. And then, during virtual, I have no idea who these... these students are. I have not even a mental picture.

CO: That is just awful!

JG: It's not good.

CO: When we also spoke about the way it was going to be taught, there was something this... called the "octomester", which sounds like a monster of some kind, [JG laughs] which I guess it was. Can you just describe briefly what that is and how did it go?

JG: So, when we started out in September, we were looking at doing what a lot of the school boards are doing right now, which is quadmesters. But then, we were mandated by the government to go into an octomester, which is five hours of instruction every day on a single course for five weeks, and then without any turnaround time, start another five weeks and then another five weeks, etc. In light of the attempt to limit cohorting, I think it was a failure. And in terms of trying to keep students engaged or in the process or even just able to learn that much for that length of a period at that time was next to impossible for most of the students.

CO: And you're a law teacher, right?

JG: History and law, yeah?

CO: OK, do you think that they got anything out of it?

CH: A small number of people living in tents in a city park were faced with a very big police response in Toronto yesterday. Dozens of police officers arrived at Trinity Bellwoods Park with private security guards in tow. They set up fencing around the encampments and, after city officials spoke to residents, the police moved in to take down the tents, which people have been living in for more than a year. The city says it offered residents indoor accommodation and support before they were moved out. Brad Ross is the city's chief communications officer. We reached him in Toronto.

CO: Mr. Ross, are you satisfied with how things went down at Trinity Baldwin's Park yesterday?

BRAD ROSS: Well, we're satisfied in that we were able to find shelter and housing eventually for at least 14 people who were encamped at Trinity Bellwoods Park. I don't think anybody is satisfied that we had to have a police presence and the protests that... that... that we saw at Trinity Bellwoods Park. But the... the objective was to bring people inside, as many who would accept service, to come inside, to get the social supports they need, the medical support they need, and ultimately the housing that that we can provide to them.

CO: To encourage people to do that, you had dozens, many dozens, of armed police, many in tactical gear. They had security fencing. You had more police on horseback. You had drones flying overhead. You had a private security company with more than 100 people there. So this was an extraordinary show of force for a group of people in tents that numbered no more than a few dozen at its largest. So why would you call that encouraging people to go and get shelter?

BR: Well, I think we need to remember that the... the number of people... and the homeless people, people experiencing homelessness in the encampments, weren't the... the concern with respect to... to people's safety. It was the protesters. And the experience we had several weeks ago at Lamport Stadium with the clearing of the encampment at Lamport Stadium was met with... with protest and, unfortunately, with violence. You know, I don't speak for the police, but I know that when they do their operational plans, they do so in a way that is proportionate to the potential response that they may get. The fencing was brought in by the city to protect both the encampment occupants as well as city staff --

CO: Woah, woah, woah! Wait, to protect the encampment occupants? How did that protect them?

BR: from... from the escalation, potential escalation of violence. So the fencing was to ensure that our staff, the streets, the homes, and the outreach workers could engage with people who were staying in the encampment to let them know that the trespass notices that were posted 10 days ago yesterday were being enforced in that we would encourage them to... to pack their belongings and to come inside. And if they chose not to, that was fine. That is their... that is their right. But that we would be clearing that encampment today. And so we... we need to be able to allow our staff to do their jobs.

CO: They've been living there for a year. So why would... if that's all you were doing. If you were just trying to help them, why have you... why didn't you offer that over a year ago when the people started moving into these... this park and the other parks in Toronto?

BR: We have been. In fact, we've had more than 20,000 engagements with people who have been living outside, encouraging... encouraging them to come inside. We've expanded the shelter system because of COVID-19 to... to... to ensure we had physical distance, including additional hotel rooms and adding hotel rooms so that they could come inside.

CO: And why do you think... why do you think these other people don't want to be there? The ones that were interviewed yesterday made it very clear that they're not going to the shelter system, as many others, even those who are going into it. They're overcrowded. They are dangerous. The women who were interviewed yesterday describe the physical violence that they have encountered. They are... there is sickness. There are drugs. These are horrible environments. And nobody... nobody wants to live in a tent in a park. But if that's better than what you're offering, how can you fault them for that?

BR: Well, I suppose we would have to agree to disagree then on what is safer. An encampment is also a very unsafe place to be. There are drugs. There is criminality with respect to sexual predators that... that come into the encampments, not the homeless people themselves, but others who come into the encampments. There are fires. We've had 114 fires this year alone, nine in the last two weeks, in encampments. There’s debris and other combustibles. And it's not just the residents of the encampments themselves who are at risk, but the first responders who have to respond to these... these fires, as well as the residents and the public who... who use the park. And... and that's another important point is these parks are... need to be available to all residents of the city, including those who are homeless. They have every right to use the park, but they don't have a right to set up camps and structures within those parks.

CO: OK --

BR: And that's why we now have space inside. And it is... and it is, Carol, to be clear, it is temporary, this emergency shelter. Shelter is not a housing solution. Absolutely not.

CO: Well, OK. Temporary for how many years? I mean, this is the thing. People are on these lists for getting housing in Toronto for years. And so if all you have is... is a shelter... and you say that, of course, there's fires in these parks, and we know that that is an issue. There are fires in the shelters. We I'm sure you know about the disabled woman on the 15th floor of that place in the winter who was left behind during a fire in a homeless shelter. Do you think that might be on their minds when they decide they don't want to live there?

BR: Understood. And... but the difference here is that these shelters are in... are in buildings and hotels that have fire suppression and have fire systems. And... and I'm familiar with... with the incident of which you speak. And that's a whole separate matter. But... but... but... but people are safer inside. I mean, that is just... that is just a fact.

CO: This is a very wealthy city, as you know, Toronto. How much did it cost yesterday? Because we're looking at this... this private security company alone that has a contract, Star Security, 22 million dollars to oversee shelter sites. How much money did you spend yesterday in order to evict those people from the park?

BR: That 22 million dollar contract is a separate contract to... to secure and provide security at our shelter and respite sites. The cost of yesterday's enforcement of the trespass notice is still being accrued. So I don't have that number yet, Carol. But what I can tell you in terms of spending in the city's budget on homelessness and housing supports this year alone is... is 663 million dollars. In 2019, it was 365 million dollars. The city has spent millions and millions of dollars and will continue to, to ensure that people who are experiencing homelessness have a place to go, whether it's a temporary shelter to deal with a COVID-19 pandemic or ultimately into housing.

CO: And this is a matter of not of, as you and I agreeing whether this is better for them or not. They are saying, the people yesterday in the park said they are better off in the park. As lousy as it is to live there, they are better off and in the shelters. It’s not my opinion. It's theirs. And so, do disagree with them?

BR: Well, look, people have to make their own decisions about where they want to live. I'm speaking for the city of Toronto.

CO: They were doing that when they’re living in the park.

BR: Well, except that... that they are not permitted to live in parks. You cannot set up tents and other structures in parks, have uncontrolled fires in parks, putting other people at risk.

CO: We will be watching. Mr. Ross, thank you.

BR: All right, Carol. Thank you.

CH: Brad Ross is the City of Toronto's chief communications officer. We reached him in Toronto. And for more on this story, go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: bright piano]

AB Indigenous Undocumented Deaths Grant

CH: It has been a month since a preliminary investigation on the grounds of the former Kamloops Indian Residential School confirmed the existence of undocumented burials. And since then, there have been calls across the country to search the grounds of other schools. This afternoon, Alberta's government announced an eight-million-dollar grant program for Indigenous communities to research undocumented deaths and burials at residential schools and to do commemorative work. Chief Billy Morin of the Enoch Cree Nation joined Premier Jason Kenney at today's announcement. And Chief Morin shared this story.

SOUNDCLIP

BILLY MORIN: I was at a... our culture camp, Maskêkosihk Culture Camp, that's in our Nation this morning. And I was sitting in ceremony, praying for this announcement that I get to be a part of. And in that ceremony, there were three boys, probably seven, eight years old. And I watched them. I watched them in that ceremony. And you can tell one of them has never been in that ceremony before. And I just had to say how proud I was, like, I just had to speak in that ceremony, and I had to say how proud I was of them being there. And how fortunate they were to be there. How this space wasn't created for a long time for them. I told them I didn't get to grow up like this. This opportunity wasn't afforded to me like how it is today. And it certainly wasn't afforded to their ancestors who went to residential school. And so it's a good day today. I don't think things are coincidence all the time. Those young boys in that ceremony gave me a lot of hope. And today, the announcement from our friends at the province give me a lot of hope, too. I'm 34, and I never went to residential school. My mom and dad never went to residential school. But when the 215 came out 12:00 at night, [a woman] who's 81 called me at 12:00 at night. And she never calls me. And she just needed to talk. And it was a good talk, but she just... she said she needed to talk to someone and she called me. I told her I'm just very, very fortunate that you were a cycle-breaker, your son was a cycle-breaker, and I'll just continue the work to be the best cycle-breaker of abuse and the wrongfulness that was done to you and all of our relations. With this announcement today... that story never ends. It keeps going. And those open wounds are very much open at this time with Kamloops and things that are going around the country right now. So for the eight million today, it's a great start. I got to say that on behalf of the province, it's a great start when you compare it to what the federal government announced. It's a great start for this province. And the premier spoke about it. This is where the most residential schools were provincially. And so that's a great start. That's a great action. That's a great reconciliatory action.

CH: That was Chief Billy Morin of the Enoch Cree Nation speaking today in Edmonton.

[music: folk]

Tasmanian Devils Reintroduced

Guest: Eric Woehler

CH: What started as an effort to save Australia's endangered Tasmanian devils has turned into a disaster for wildlife on Maria Island. Roughly nine years ago, 28 of the carnivorous marsupials were sent to populate the Island, after nearly being wiped out by a disease. But now penguins and other birds on the island are being killed in alarming numbers. Eric Woehler is a researcher at BirdLife Tasmania. We reached him in Hobart, Tasmania.

CO: Eric, your organization BirdLife Tasmania said on Twitter, maybe next time they'll listen to us. How frustrating has it been for you to watch the bird population dwindle on that island?

ERIC WOEHLER: It's a devastating result. It was predicted about 10 years ago. And it's just this is one of these situations where you almost wish that you were wrong in that we hadn't... we weren't discussing the complete loss of a penguin colony. It's just… it’s just a sad outcome.

CO: Can you just describe what kind of damage then that these Tasmanian devils have done to the island's birdlife?

EW: So, Maria Island is a... is a small island off the east coast of Tasmania. The island is a national park. So theoretically, it should have the highest level of protection for its biodiversity, you know? And what we saw was about 10 or so years ago, an insurance population of the Tasmanian devil was established on the island following the outbreak of a facial tumour disease in the devil population in the wild. And that the Tasmanian devil is both a carnivore and a scavenger, and so they've had a significant impact on multiple species of birds and mammals on the island.

CO: Particularly you mentioned these penguins. Can you tell us about that?

EW: So the little penguin is... it's the smallest of the penguin species in the world. It's about 30 centimetres tall. On average, about a kilo in body mass. And they found throughout southern southern Australia and all around the coastline of Tasmania. We've had a number of dog attacks on penguin colonies around Tasmania over the years. And more and more of the mainland penguin colonies are disappearing because of dog attacks, human disturbance and habitat fragmentation. So the offshore islands on which the penguins are breeding are becoming increasingly important as refugia for the species because they're not seeing the same spectrum of threats as they are on mainland colonies. And so when we see the complete loss of 3,000 penguins from one of these island refugia, it's clearly a major concern for the species.

CO: You mentioned that these Tasmanian devils were... were introduced to the island as an insurance population because of the cancer they were getting. Just tell us about that?

EW: So, about 30 years ago, there was evidence or observations of an unusual facial tumour, cancer in devils in the wild throughout Tasmania. And as a response to that, one of the strategies that was identified, as well as the research into the cancer and, you know, looking at ways to... to medicate or do, yeah, other interventions for the cancer. One of the strategies that the state and federal governments identified was to establish insurance populations on islands and in captive breeding programs. So that under the worst case scenario, should the entire population in the wild be wiped out by the disease, you would still have these insurance populations on islands in captive breeding programs and in isolated habitats where theoretically the disease would not be able to to reach the population. And Maria Island was selected as one of those insurance populations.

CO: And did the devils... did that disease, did the cancer start to diminish in them?

EW: The current estimate is that we've probably lost, you know, perhaps half or a little bit more of the original devil population in Tasmania. And there is now increasing evidence that the rate of progress in the... in the population has started to slow in the spread of the cancer. But there is also increasing evidence of an increase in the resistance in the devils in the wild to the cancer. And this is a natural, yeah, response. Its natural selection, its evolution literally in action. As the disease spreads, so does the resistance to the disease. And so we now are seeing an increased resistance to the disease in the wild and we're seeing a decrease in the rate of transmission or a rate of spread in the... in the disease.

CO: But going back to the birds that have been lost because of the devils is that you warned them. And we've seen this happen before [EW laughs] when they say, oh, let's put cats on an island to kill the rats and then get foxes to kill the cats. It never works, right?

EW: no.

CO: So why didn't they listen to you?

EW: Oh, well, I mean, we're just... we're just a community group. We're a non-government organization. They had paid staff. And then who knows what other political decisions were made? Who knows what the decision process within the government agencies, you know, might be like? We all know the government agencies are not the best in transparency or clarity in their decision-making process. The internal staff inside the agency also warned of this sort of an outcome. Other community groups, other conservation organizations also warned there is a long history of whether a deliberate or accidental introduction of vertebrate, you know, carnivores to any island anywhere in the world for hundreds of years has always had the same outcome. We've seen a catastrophic impact on one or more species of birds on those islands. And Maria Island, the loss of the penguins on that island is simply the latest example of the catastrophic impacts of a vertebrate introduction to an island.

CO: Do you trust them to do whatever's necessary, [EW laughs] needed to bring the penguins and the bird populations back?

EW: Well, we've suggested quite strongly that, in fact, we need to have a very, you know, robust discussion about whether or not the justification for maintaining that devil population on the island is still warranted in light of the decreased transmission of the disease, increased resistance and of the catastrophic impact on… on the bird species on the island. Whether the government is prepared to back down and change its mind, you know, respond to these sorts of public scrutiny is up to the government to make its mind up. And various ministers, no doubt, will be unhappy with my performance [CO chuckles] in alerting the public to this issue. But the reality is we know from other islands, again, around the world, get rid of the predators and the birds will respond. We don't need to, you know, put in an artificial breeding population of penguins on the island. Take away the presence of pressure from Maria Island and the penguin population will recover. It might take 10, 20, 30 years, but it will recover.

CO: Eric, I hope you're right. And it's good to talk to you as you... as you enter your winter and we enter our summer. [both laughing] Thank you so much.

EW: Thank you, Carol. Thank you for your interest.

CO: Bye-bye.

CH: Eric Woehler is a researcher at BirdLife Tasmania. We reached him in Hobart, Tasmania.

[music: that song that sounds like ‘Corner Gas’ diner music]

LR: Hiccup Cure

CH: Hiccups are the worst. But if you're looking for an absolutely guaranteed cure — don't hold your breath. I mean, you can try. Or you can try the HiccAway, which we told you about last night. It was invented by a Texas doctor, and it is basically a... straw. A fancy straw, but a straw. And if you want go the scientific route, be my guest. But back in 2003, Talkback had some free advice — like pulling on your tongue while rubbing your eyeballs. Genius. But it's 18 years later, so we asked for more modern methods — and you happily obliged. Pearl Hoz suggested rubbing your earlobe between two fingers. Sean from North Vancouver said to place your index fingers in your ears, your thumbs on nostrils, pick up a plastic cup with your teeth and drink the entire glass of water. And Hilary from Toronto suggests a spoonful of vinegar. Or you can listen to Talkback.

SOUNDCLIP

[sound a phone connects]

Anita Block: It's Anita Block calling from Toronto. A few years ago, I got the hiccups in a bar. The bartender handed me a lemon wedge and basically said, suck on this. It did the trick and I swear by it. Thank you.

MATT SUDAL:Matt Sudal from Utica, New York. When I get hiccups, I also often get burps with them. So I call them hicburps. And they're awful, but I found a great cure, it just happens to be a heaping teaspoon of peanut butter. Eat that and they will go away for sure.

CH: Thanks, Anita and Matt. Our last bit of advice comes from Bob McAree. He wrote, "My ex-wife and I had a surefire hiccup cure. Whenever either of us had the hiccups, we would start necking. It worked every time. Sadly it wasn't enough to save our marriage!" Thanks for that advice, Bob. Or the warning. And thank you to everyone who wrote or called in. You can always send your hiccup cures — or anything for that matter to our email at: aih@cbc.ca. Or give Talkback a buzz at: 416-205-5687.

[music: another dinercore song?]

Encore: Perdita Felicien

Encore: Perdita Felicien

CH: A month from today, a very different, pandemic-era summer Olympics is going to kick off in Japan. And if you're watching the Games from Canada, you'll be seeing a lot of Perdita Felicien. Ms. Felicien will be part of the CBC's broadcast team. And she'll bring a deep understanding of the extreme highs and lows that athletes will be feeling, because she's experienced them all herself. Perdita Felicien is a world-champion hurdler and a two-time Olympian. She's still a record holder. But Canadians also remember her for her heartbreaking fall at the Athens Olympics in 2004. Earlier this year, Perdita Felicien joined Carol to talk about her new book. She spoke about that fall in Athens, her childhood in Ontario, and her wildly impressive career as a hurdler. And she was joined by the woman who made all those achievements possible: her mother, Cathy Felicien Browne. Perdita Felicien's book is called "My Mother's Daughter." And here's an encore of that conversation from March.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Perdita and Cathy, welcome to As It Happens.

CATHY FELICIEN BROWNE: Thank you.

PERDITA FELICIEN: Good to be here.

CO: Perdita, when you decided that you were going to write this book, did you right away realise that you were going to have to tell your mother's story and really not just yours?

PERDITA FELICIEN: I knew my mother's would be intertwined in there. I didn't know it would become My Mother's Daughter in the way that it is where it truly is her foundation story, which informs my story. And I thought, could I just tell the sport piece? Could I just tell a sports story? And there's no way, because who I was and who I am as a woman, as a world class athlete was only because of my mother's story and because of who my mother is. And I had to tell that so you know who Perdita, this world class champion, is.

CO: And also I think you decided to do that because your mom's story is amazing.

PERDITA FELICIEN: [Chuckles] And there's that. And there's that. Yeah.

CO: Cathy, you're the mom. What did you think when Perdita told you that she would be telling your story in a book?

CATHY FELICIEN BROWNE: I was happy when she asked me because I wanted to put my story out a long time ago and I didn't really know how to go about it. But when she came to me and asked me permission for her to write the story, I agreed with her.

CO: So your story, which begins in Saint Lucia as a kid growing up quite poor. What was the hardest part of childhood for you?

CATHY FELICIEN BROWNE: The hardest part of childhood for me was I'm a young girl who loved going to school. And because my parents were so poor and I was very an obedient child -- my mom used to work as a labourer doing gardens, and my father was a fisherman, and then worked in a different job digging sand and sell to the government to make bricks and cement. So each time when the trucks came to buy sand from her, she would always tell me that I am not going to school today because she have so many others for the truck drivers come and pick up the sand, and I used to cry because I really wanted to go to school. But then at the other hand, as a child growing up, I realised that that's what they need to put food on the table, is the money.

CO: What kind of work did you do for your family?

CATHY FELICIEN BROWNE: What other job I used to do -- afterwards, my mom stopped selling those seashells and then shell necklaces. And then I used to be the vendor going to the beach every hotel and sell them, especially when a cruise ship would come in, I am who would go out there and sell.

CO: So you were selling to these tourists who are on the beach. They were buying your shells, sometimes other things, souvenirs you had. But then you met a couple, you met a family that brought you to Canada. How did you come to meet the Baxters?

CATHY FELICIEN BROWNE: Well, the husband was by the beach, was by the hotel pool. And then I saw him with the little baby on his chest. And then I walked towards him and asked him if I could be the baby sitter for the baby. And then I became friends with them and that's how I came to Canada.

CO: You spent time with them on that holiday, they went back, it was quite a while before you heard from them. And what did they ask you to do?

CATHY FELICIEN BROWNE: They had told me that when I turned 20, they would bring me to Canada. But then I know so many times people who promise you so many promises and then they never kept the promise. And then I was surprised when years after, two years after, I heard from them. And they kept the promise.

CO: You didn't stay with the Baxters after you came to Ontario. What happened?

CATHY FELICIEN BROWNE: I spent five months with them, but things didn't work out. But they did help me to stay in the country.

CO: But you were discovering, even though you were able to come to Canada, that the people who employed you had a great deal of power over your life, didn't they?

CATHY FELICIEN BROWNE: Yes. The thing is you came in this country for a better life for yourself and your family and your children so you do what you have to do. You take whatever that comes your way and work with it. And I always have my little prayer book and talk to Jesus and ask God to make the way for me. And that's what he did. He helped me along the way. And I see, you know, I need the help. I need the bread from them. And I take it like it comes.

CO: You moved in with another family, the Harry family. And Mrs. Harry, she really put you to work, didn't she?

CATHY FELICIEN BROWNE: Yes, she did. On the other hand, she was a loving lady. She helped me in certain ways that I thought she wouldn't. To be honest with you, she was in between. She was good and on the other hand, she was not that great.

CO: You're being very generous, I would say.

PERDITA FELICIEN: I know. You're being so pc mom. Tell exactly how you felt momma. They're making Harrys seem so great. She was a wretch.

CATHY FELICIEN BROWNE: She was like somebody who was half racist. At that time, I am new in the country and I didn't know much. I didn't know the rules. I didn't know that I have my rights. And because I was working -- I was in a contract with her, and she was always threatening me that she would call the immigration for me. And all that was a threat.

CO: There are many things that Perdita writes and I'm sure that came from you about how you were treated. This is also the house where you were pregnant with Perdita.

CATHY FELICIEN BROWNE: Yes.

CO: Some of the details that Perdita writes are just -- my jaw was on the floor reading some of the things she did to you. One of the worst was when you're going to the hospital, you're ready, you're having shooting pains. You're going to the hospital with Perdita. And she tells you that, well, you have to make some sandwiches to go -- she's going to drive you, first she's not going to then she agrees but only after you make lunch for her. Were there times when you just wanted to tell her where she could whatever?

CATHY FELICIEN BROWNE: Well, the thing is, I had planned to take two weeks off to go and have my baby. And another time in the morning, I planned to tell her about two weeks off. That's when right away I was in pain. I was feeling contractions. And then I went and knocked on her door and told her that I am feeling pain, I think I'm going to have the baby. And then she said to me, how come it's now that the baby's coming? How come it is now the baby is coming? And then she told me that I have to go and do the sandwiches. And I didn't know much. Like I said, I didn't have much friends. I only had one friend. And I called and I told her what happened. And then she told me, don't do nothing, just go and shower myself and get myself ready, call a taxi, which I did. And then she realised that I did call the taxi. And then she came and she told me that she will drive me to the hospital.

CO: This is an awful time for you. But now Perdita is in your life pretty. Perdita at what point did you realise how difficult this was for your mother? You were not just a child, you were an ally for her, weren't you?

PERDITA FELICIEN: Yeah, I was. Well, through my life my mother would say things as I was young and growing, you know, "When you came into my life Perdita, you gave me hope," or you give me purpose and a reason. And so as a six year old or a 10 year old or 12 year old, I mean, that's just mom being mom. I didn't really understand what she meant. But as you grow old and you gain understanding and perspective, it just became loaded. And I thought, well, what kind of life did mom have and what kind of hope and purpose did I give her? It wasn't until I started to write and piece my mother's life together and I saw all the things that she had to endure to give me the experience and the richness of the life that I have. And I was my mother's ally in many ways in that I would try and not be on her list of problems because I saw my mother's problems. I wiped her tears physically with my hands, literally with my hands. And I did not want to be one of those people that made my mother cry because it seemed my mother was always crying. My mother was always being taken advantage of. And I didn't know what that was when I was young, right, it's just our life. But I just could tell it was heavy for my mother. And I didn't want to contribute to that heaviness.

CO: You never knew your father, your biological father, David, but you had somebody you called dad. Can you tell us about Bruce?

PERDITA FELICIEN: Bruce -- my mom said she had me by herself in Oshawa, Ontario, in 1980. And she met Bruce, who is my dad and who would take me on by chance one day when she was pregnant with me. He was a vacuum salesman on the streets of Oshawa. And then they'd see each other downtown here and then and say hi. But after she had me, she encountered him again at the bus stop and helped with the stroller to get on the bus. And they started dating sometime after that. But Bruce was the father I never had. You know, like you said, I've never met my biological dad. I couldn't pick him out in a crowd. I can't tell you what he looks like. And Bruce is the only dad that I know.

CO: And yet, even though you were living with Bruce, Bruce was someone you called dad. You and your mom ended up in a women's crisis shelter. What led to that?

PERDITA FELICIEN: We fled to Auberge at the time, which is now known as The Denise House, because by that time, I'm about seven years old, maybe six years old, and it is the mid-80s. And my mom and dad and sister had gotten into an altercation. Usually my dad was upset about something that my mom had done that he didn't like. Maybe the dishes weren't washed or food wasn't cooked or there's not enough groceries in the cupboards, even though he didn't give her a lot of money to buy any groceries. But he was always upset about something. And then the night of this altercation my sister confronts him because my mom was able to bring her to Canada. And so the defender that I could never be because, you know, Bruce was my dad and it was complicated, I didn't know how to choose between the two. Wanda had -- she wasn't his ally, right. She had no connexion to him. And her loyalty was to our mom. So she would stick up for mom and confront him the way my mother could not. And that would always cause tension in the house. And so on this particular night, they get into it. All I remember is my mom was very pregnant and they were wrestling. They were falling down some stairs in a heap. My sister calls the police and of course, the police get there and my dad decides he's not staying. He leaves so he doesn't get arrested. And we are taken to this woman's shelter and we show up at the door basically with not much maybe garbage bag of some clothes. And my pregnant mom and my sister and me.

CO: Now, Cathy, one thing that I understand from the book is that once you were in that shelter and then eventually they helped you get a townhouse, you had for the first time, you came to know some independence, some control over your own life. What was that like?

CATHY FELICIEN BROWNE: Well, to be honest with you, it was a godsend when the shelter called me to get that place in Pickering. I did things that I thought I couldn't do. I wanted to make my children proud. I went to school, learn how to drive, get a job because I didn't have any -- no money, nothing at all. And I went to school and make something out of myself. And it was the best thing that ever happened to me.

CO: It's that one thing, someone holds out a hand for you and says we don't have to live like this. And then that help with the grit that you have in your own being, you just made so much of that, didn't you, Cathy?

CATHY FELICIEN BROWNE: Yes, I did. Yes, I did.

CO: You're listening to As It Happens. And I am speaking with Cathy Felicien Browne and her daughter, Perdita Felicien, well-known world champion hurdler, Olympian. And we're talking about Perdita's book, My Mother's Daughter. Cathy, I want to ask what you remember about the first time you ever saw your daughter, Perdita, do those hurdles.

CATHY FELICIEN BROWNE: [Laughs] Oh my gracious. Oh, it was wonderful. I never thought that Perdita could jump over the hurdles because I never saw her run hurdles. When she became a hurdler, I could not believe it. I was overjoyed. I was a proud mom -- 10 hurdles. [Laughs] I can't even jump on one.

CO: Perdita, what kind of a spectator was your mom?

PERDITA FELICIEN: Listen, you would have to have earplugs in your ear whenever my mom showed up at the stadium. To the point where her voice was so shrill and saw that it was like this boom box that just went woah, right. I think she equated the volume to how fast I could go. So the louder she was, faster I would be and the more it meant I could win or I would win. To the point where in high school I was so embarrassed by it, that I banned her. I think you cannot scream this out for me in the stands, it's embarrassing. But what did my mom do? Oh, she found a way because my mom is very, very, very crafty. So she goes to the Pickering Town Centre, our local mall, and she gets a custom made t-shirt. And the day of this race where at first band or she shows up at the stadium and of course she's not screaming or yelling, which is like, oh, that's interesting. Good she learnt. But then she zips off her jacket and she has this t-shirt that says "Go Perdita Go." And she would continue [laughs] Perdita's mom, continued that tradition of making t-shirts to cheer me on like forever.

CO: You know, you had many great coaches, everyone recognising that you are outstanding, that you had a talent, all who saw you knew there was something very special. But there was one thing that -- I think your first coach, Ms. Hurst -- she told you why it is that you were so good at the hurdles. And she said, because you are not afraid.

PERDITA FELICIEN: Yeah. She was my very very first coach in hurdles, and she doesn't get tons of credit or billing for it. I'm so glad to talk about her right now because she didn't coach me for very long, grade six to about grade eight. So that's not a really long time in my life span of hurdling. And it was just the very beginning. No one knew me. But she did notice that I wasn't afraid. Whereas the day that I was introduced to the event, the athletes that were there with me would kind of stumble in front of it and pause or they'd go around them or they'd knock them down. They just couldn't muster the nerve to go over it, right. Where I just steamed right through and over. And that was my superpower. That was my superpower in the event. And I didn't know it at the time. But she told me. And looking back, I'm like, yeah, I was never afraid to face the first hurdle or any ten of them ever.

CO: There are just pages of lists of the awards that you won, the championships that you took, the records that you broke over and over again, building this extraordinary career that took you, of course, to the Athens Olympics in 2004. And I remember that. I remember just your picture was everywhere. Your spirit was everywhere. Every Canadian was just cheering for you. What do you remember about the hype that was around those games?

PERDITA FELICIEN: I remember that I loved the hype. I remember that I felt like I could handle it. It didn't feel like a distraction at all. It actually felt like something I knew I had earned. And I say that with all humility. You know, Nike wasn't putting me on billboards all across the country, neither was RBC, because they felt, you know, oh, this is a nice girl like and I am a nice girl. But I had earned that. I was a fierce competitor. I was the world champion. The nice thing about that, though, is I was training in Illinois at the time and we were in Europe preparing for the upcoming Olympics. So the intense, you know, gaze of it, I didn't feel the intense pressure of it. I really didn't feel because I wasn't in Canada leading up to the games very much. So I'd hear about it, you know, through my mom or I would hear about them and see the magazines and whatnot. But I didn't feel it. Also you have to understand what an Olympic bubble is like when you're at the top of the pyramid, which I was, you are very sequestered. Your team is there to protect you and keep you safe. So you're not really reading all your press. You and your team have a mantra and a mission. And that's what you're dialed in on and zoned in on. So everything else is really just noise.

CO: Your mom was not in the stands making her noise. She was back in Ontario. Cathy, tell us what happened that day, that moment when you were watching your daughter in that crucial race in August in Athens. What was that like for you?

CATHY FELICIEN BROWNE: It was very hard for me. I had so many people in the house and I told them after everything went and Perdita failed and everything was over, I told them, let's everybody let's go next door and have something to eat and drink. So everything was okay that day. But the day after I felt all the pain as if somebody died in the family, I was lonely. If I had somebody there to cry on their shoulder, maybe I wouldn't take it that hard. But the fact is that I didn't have no one to talk to, no one to cry to -- it was just me and the children and they themselves now, they couldn't even say nothing to me. And it was hard. It was really hard.

CO: You also couldn't be with Perdita. You couldn't comfort your daughter.

CATHY FELICIEN BROWNE: Well, that's the part too that was killing me. And especially when I hear her voice when she called me, that's the only time now I felt relief. I told her do not cry, don't shed no tears. I said, you are the gold. Don't shed a tear. Wipe your tears. I just wish that I was there to hold onto her and let her know everything going to be okay.

CO: Perdita, you have never shrunk from that moment. You have never tried to shield yourself from it. I heard you talk about it. I know from this book that you faced it. But what was the moment, that moment when your foot struck that hurdle, you stumbled into the next lane. You actually took out anotherm, one of your competitors. What was the moment like for you?

PERDITA FELICIEN: You know, I think -- and hearing my mom's reaction to it now [chokes up] I don't usually cry about that moment. And like you said, I talk about it, you know, very openly and I have for what 17 years this summer? To hear mother's reaction to it now, though, it breaks me open again. There's many hard things about that moment, but I think it was one of the last things I wrote in the book that I could just never confront it the way I had to so people could feel it, so people could live it with me and be there. And I think I do a really good job of that on the page. I think one of the hardest things for me is like the immediate aftermath of it. I'm on the floor and there's a hurdle, I'm wrapped around it, facing backwards to the finish of the race, you know, at the start line. And I could see this massive Jumbotron, I have a front row seat to this massive Jumbotron. And just the violence of the fall has me facing this race. I see the race going and going and going. And I'm seeing this dream just bulldozed down the track away from me like a runaway train. It's unbelievable. It's unthinkable. You've never seen yourself there ever. And I think the hardest thing for me in that moment, I needed someone to just help orient me. And I had no one. And I remember there's some friends of mine that were just right behind the start line. I walked to them to just get a hug and the official would not let me go literally four or five feet just to get someone with the Canadian flag, just to embrace me. And he would not let me. And I remember having the smallest voice and pleading with this man just to help me. And I said, I just need a hug. I just need a hug. And he wouldn't let me pass. And so, you know, you're alone in that moment. You know, you're absolutely alone. [Cries] There is nobody coming to help you. That is the most isolated I have ever felt. And I wasn't crying because I had fallen or this thing was gone for me, that would come of course, I was crying and I was devastated. I actually didn't start crying then, actually, but I was devastated in that moment because there was just nobody there. And this person who had just seen what happened a feet away from me, crumbling and crashing so violently, didn't have the humanity in him to just say, I'll let you pass. I wouldn't have broken any rules. I literally would have just gone to hug and moved on. And so when I finally did hear my mother's voice because I eventually did hear her voice, it felt like the first time I felt held. And she said, you are the gold, you are gold -- those are her literal words. And to this day, that gives me comfort. That gives me comfort. And I think we're both unpacking this moment, not for the first time, but we're unpacking this moment and it feels fresh again because we are truly, truly having to confront it for a long time. For us, it's just been a blind spot again, because that's where it's safe. That's where we're protected.

CO: Cathy, do you want to respond to your daughter?

CATHY FELICIEN BROWNE: Until today now, I cannot even look at her picture where she had all the hurdles all around her on the ground. It took me years before I looked at that picture. And even if I look at it right now, I will still flip the page. It is the worst thing for a mother to see.

PERDITA FELICIEN: Yeah, you know what? This is a realisation for me. I think in this moment and being a fairly new mom, like just two years in, when I hear my mom speak about this, just the two of us together on the phone, that doesn't happen often us talking about this particular moment together...[Cathy faintly speaks in background "I blame myself"] I actually...I know you do mom. I know you blame yourself. Don't.

CATHY FELICIEN BROWNE: I blame myself. And I never told Perdita. I think maybe it's my fault because I remember the first time when she called me, I told her, come out strong. And I feel that I make her come out strong. And that's why this happened and I blame myself. And I never told her all these years I blamed myself and I never told nobody. I kept it between me. But things always have a reason. And we do not know the reason why. It's only God knows the reason why. And I feel if she didn't fall, maybe people wouldn't know who he is today. And through that fall, look so many doors God open for her. And I think that's the reason why.

CO: And what you just said, Cathy, is what I was thinking is that the two of you have crossed so many hurdles, much bigger hurdles than that one that your foot hooked on. The hurdles that you describe in this book that you both surmounted are considerable and would have daunted many, many people. So I just want to say that I find both of you just remarkable in spirit and strength.

PERDITA FELICIEN: Thank you. Appreciate that.

CATHY FELICIEN BROWNE: Thank you.

CO: Perdita, dd you have a sense of what your future would be like after you retired from hurdling?

PERDITA FELICIEN: Interestingly enough, I have pretty much every medal that there is in sport and the titles, you know, Athlete of the Year, record holder, world champion. The one I don't have that I truly wanted at the top of the pyramid is Olympian. So in 08, I chased it again. Didn't happen. I was injured that year. And I remember CBC calling me to go out to Beijing to do a little bit of broadcasting with them. I had no experience at all. They just wanted me to do some commentary and it felt so strange to go and be asked to do commentary on a race that I felt I could have won and it could have been in. And here I am, another Olympic like letdown, an epic fail. But I went and the 10 days that I spent in Beijing, had I not said yes, I don't know that I would have discovered what I was meant to do in this next chapter. And so I loved telling athletes' stories. I love telling stories, period. And to answer that question, I knew in 08 what I wanted to do next. And some athletes don't really get the fortune of knowing what their next chapter is. And we're always searching for something to fulfil us like sport did, and it's really hard to create that. So for the next five years, I wouldn't retire until 2013. I told no one really that I wanted to be a broadcaster, I wanted to be on TV, and I wanted to be in front of a camera. And when I retired in 2013, I knew that was my next thing and I chased it. I went to Seneca and I studied there and I did everything, things that paid me no money, things that paid me a 100 dollars, and just to get the experience. And I'm doing it now full-time and have been ever since I retired, but it feels so good to know what I want to do.

CO: Was there ever a time, Cathy, where you didn't know who you were? What you wanted? What was the biggest hurdle you had to cross?

CATHY FELICIEN BROWNE: The biggest hurdle to cross was leaving my husband. He making me having doubts of myself by how he used to talk to me, made me feel as if that I am nobody. He used to say to me that I'm ugly and I used to feel that I am ugly. Until when I pick up myself, God help me. He is out of my sight and I build up myself. And God bless me now with a wonderful husband who appreciates the person that I am.

CO: You had five kids, right?

CATHY FELICIEN BROWNE: Yes.

CO: How many grandkids?

CATHY FELICIEN BROWNE: 15 grandchildren.

CO: And one great grandchild now.

CATHY FELICIEN BROWNE: One great grandchild. And this is what make me feel I am somebody, I have people who care about me, who appreciate me for who I am. And this is how I brought up my children, is to love because my parents never tell me anything wrong about other people or what they always said to me is to love one another, care about one another. And this is what I have in me, love and care. And I taught it to my children.

CO: We're going to have to leave it here, I think. Perdita I can certainly see why you wrote the title, My Mother's Daughter, because you surely are. And I know you're in the same house together in different rooms. I think there's a hug coming after this interview. Perdita and Cathy, it is a great pleasure to speak with both of you. Thank you.

PERDITA FELICIEN: This was a pleasure.

CATHY FELICIEN BROWNE: Thank you.

PERDITA FELICIEN: Thank you.

CH: From our archives, Canadian Olympian and retired hurdler Perdita Felicien, speaking about her book "My Mother's Daughter: A Memoir of Struggle and Triumph." She was joined by her mother, Cathy Browne Felicien. They spoke to us from Ajax, Ontario. Perdita Felicien will be part of the CBC's broadcast team for the Olympics. You'll catch her hosting "Tokyo Today," with Andrew Chang. And to hear that interview again, and see pictures of Perdita and Cathy, visit our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

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June 23, 2021 Episode Transcript

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