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The AIH Transcript for June 21, 2021

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello, I’m Carol Off.

TALIA SCHLANGER: Good evening, I'm Talia Schlanger, sitting in for Chris Howden. This is “As It Happens”.

[music: theme]

TS: Tonight:

TS: Dress code. A seamstress who recreated the jacket given to chiefs who signed Treaty 11 100 years ago this summer reflects on how the century-old agreement changed the fabric of her society.

CO: Re-United States. A Canadian man in Detroit is relieved he can finally cross the border to see his parents without quarantining — but says his 10-year-old daughter may not be so lucky.

TS: High jinx. A pair of brothers in California who love slacklining strung up a rope nearly 500 metres above Yosemite National Park and managed to break... a huge record — and, thankfully, nothing else.

CO: The old and the beautiful. Joni Mitchell's album, “Blue”, turns 50 tomorrow — but its songs still ache as though The break-up that inspired them happened yesterday.

TS: And let's talk about sex, Bonnie. The National Trust of Scotland is offering visitors a peek into the sex lives of 17th century Scots... linen, condoms and all.

TS: “As It Happens”, the Monday edition. Radio that suspects the inventor would plead not Kilty.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Residential Schools Vigil, Border Opening, Scotland Sex Tour

Residential Schools Vigil

Guest: Lou-Ann Neel

TS: When the Tk'emlúps te Secwépemc First Nation revealed that they had located what are believed to be the remains of 215 children at the former Kamloops Indian Residential School, mourners gathered at vigils. A number of powerful symbols emerged at those vigils all over Canada. Among them, children's toys and shoes — that were placed on the steps of legislatures, churches, and former residential schools. Poignant reminders of all the Indigenous kids who never came home. Now, just in time for National Indigenous Peoples Day, Lou-Ann Neel has ensured that hundreds of the toys and shoes will end up with the children who need them. Ms. Neel is a Kwakwaka'wakw residential school survivor and curator of Indigenous Collections at the Royal B.C. Museum. We reached her in Victoria.

CO: Lou-ann, I know you helped organize a vigil for the children in the graves in Kamloops, and you had the vigil in Victoria. What items... what did people bring as far as offerings for those kids?

LOU-ANN NEEL: Well, mostly they brought children's shoes, teddy bears. Some people brought notes that they wrote to go with their stuffed animal or with the shoes. Some people brought candles to be placed amongst all the shoes. We've also had people drop off pictures of little children and other toys like little tea sets that some toys that children would love. And then in the days following, some more shoes, after we place them at their final destination, which is the British Columbia legislature, people have been adding shoes ever since. But before they went... before we brought them there, we also had some of them cleaned and cleansed in our traditional way and were gifted to some of the children in the community.

CO: Tell us a bit about that. What... what efforts you have made in order to ensure that these shoes and toys go to other kids?

LAN: Well, when... when we organized the gathering, about an hour before we expected people to show up, my sister, Colleen Smith, her and I were chatting and going through our to-do list and realized, oh, we didn't make a plan for where they should go afterwards. And so as people arrived, I started asking people, would you mind if these eventually went to children in the community who need them? And almost everybody said the same thing. You know what? I didn't even think about that. I think that's a great idea. So what I did was after the gathering was over, I spent the next four days in the Mungo Martin House, which is where we held the gathering, and just did our traditional cleansing, which for our people, we use cedar branches to brush over them and just cleanse away the energy, offer prayers. And I know some of our children's lullabies. So I sang to them as I was preparing them and cleansing them. So I handled every one of the shoes and every one of the stuffies and gave them a thorough cedar brushing so that they could be gifted.

CO: And now the remains, the other ones that are still there, the shoes and stuffed animals, they are on the steps of the BC legislature in Victoria, is that right?

LAN: That's correct.

CO: How long will they stay there?

LAN: At least until July 1st. And this is to coincide with another initiative my nephew is named Sasha Parent, and he's been doing a 215-kilometre run to raise funds for the Indian Residential School Survivors Society.

CO: Wow!

LAN: And he's going to do the last kilometre of his run, And he actually said he's running 216 kilometres, 215 for the children that were found and one kilometre in recognition of those who have not yet been found. And the end of his run will be the steps of the BC legislature.

CO: What... what have these past few weeks been for you personally? Because you are also a residential school survivor, aren't you?

LAN: Umm-hmm. Yeah, it's been pretty exhausting on every level. The first few weeks, I couldn't stop myself from crying, just anywhere, any time. I'd come to work, and I would just feel that weight that's like being sucker-punched over and over and over again. Because for me, I also was following very closely with the work of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and knew that many survivors had given testimony that this was, in fact, the case, that there were children buried in unmarked graves. And even though the commission acknowledged and believed what was being told, nothing got done about it. So it, you know, really percolated in anger inside me. And then, even though it was a relief to know that the Nation, Tk'emlúps te Secwépemc, were able to do this work themselves. The difference that it's made and the awareness that it made, on the one hand, it's really validating, but it's also still very frustrating to have government and Church wanting to deny those and wanting to hide or conceal their responsibility in this regard.

CO: On that issue of the the anger side of it, I just want to ask you one incident in a Catholic Church pastor in Dunnville, Ontario, who threw away the shoes that were left in front of his church because he thought, he said they were a tripping hazard, and he didn't know what they symbolized. What do you make of that?

LAN: Well, I think that he's not telling the whole truth, which, you know, you pretty much have to be living under a rock in Canada to not know that this is a major news story and an issue. And I think it's really in poor taste, at the very least. And I'm being very diplomatic [CO chuckles] for the Church to, you know, claim ignorance on these things, to claim that they didn't know. I don't buy that.

CO: On the other... the opposite side, we spoke to Victoria's Mayor Helps about cancelling Canada Day celebrations just last week. And what she said was that she doesn't believe that Canada Day can ever be the same again. And do you think that that's the case? Do you think that... that for the most part, this conversation in this country has begun?

LAN: Yeah, I think it's surprising. I was so moved when I saw the announcement that that day. I didn't think I would ever see that in my life. And so I'm really, really appreciative to her and city council for making that bold move. And there wasn't the kind of backlash I thought that was going to be. I was kind of preparing myself to, you know, wear dark glasses and a hoodie. [both laughing] And so I'm really glad that they did that. We will actually, I was mentioning that my... my nephew Sasha has his final run, that's on Canada Day, what would be Canada Day. So July 1st, I see us as reclaiming that day in remembrance of the children.

CO: We will be watching. Lou-Ann, it's good to talk to you. Thank you.

LAN: Thank you so much,

TS: Lou-Ann Neel is a Kwakwaka'wakw woman and curator of Indigenous Collections at the Royal B.C. Museum. She's in Victoria.

[music: glassy guitar riff]

Border Opening

Guest: Derek Cookson

TS: Today, Ottawa announced that starting July 5th, fully-vaccinated Canadians and permanent residents in Canada who are in the U.S. can cross the border without needing to quarantine. It may be the first small step toward getting the U.S.-Canada border open again, but some Canadians eager to see family for the first time in 15 months were looking for more. And for families with young kids, things get a bit more complicated. Children under the age of 18 who aren't fully vaccinated will still have to quarantine upon arrival, even if their parents are vaccinated. Derek Cookson is a Canadian-American father to a 10-year-old who is living in Michigan. We reached him in Royal Oak, Michigan.

CO: Derek, will you be one of these Canadians heading for the border starting July 5th?

DEREK COOKSON: I absolutely would love to. The big question is going to be for me whether my daughter can come with me? She's 10, and so she's not eligible for the vaccine. And so the questions are still there whether she's going to be allowed to have any kind of exemption to come with me or if she's still going to be subject to the 14-day quarantine?

CO: And you don't want her to come over if she faces that 14 days?

DC: I mean, she could, but it gets very complicated at that point. I know she really would like to see the family probably more than I would. So I intend on trying to get across, yes. As soon as possible.

CO: OK, so lots of logistical concerns here. What are the emotional ones? What is it actually hearing this announcement that it is kind of opening to you to come to Canada? What does that mean for you?

DC: There's the frustration there that... that, to me, it should have been open a long time ago. I do have the little bit of resentment that I know people that have jobs over the border and they can freely cross without having to quarantine. And, you know, how does that somehow make them more eligible to see their family and... and cross the border than somebody who's fully vaccinated and is a Canadian citizen as well? But, you know, there's a lot of emotions that go along with it. I've never gone 15 months without seeing my family. So obviously, I'm very much looking forward to it. And I feel like... like many of us who have... pretty much every person out there feels like they've had a year of their lives stolen from COVID. I'm no different to that.

CO: And how much more difficult is it for a 10-year-old?

DC: There's no such thing as a year. It feels like a decade to her. And she... she's almost made me promise that I won't go across without her. So I've got to figure out the extra logistics and that I'll bring her over with me.

CO: She has a pretty strong relationship with your parents?

DC: Correct. Yeah, those are... those are her Grandma and Papa, and she misses them dearly. And FaceTime isn't quite the same.

CO: OK, just give us a bit of the geography about your situation, where... where your parents live, where you live, and what border are you... would they need to cross?

DC: I currently live in Royal Oak, just outside Detroit, Michigan, and from my doorstep to my parents in LaSalle is about a 40-minute drive — 15 minutes from here to the border, five, 10 minutes at the border, usually in the previous world before COVID and then 20 more minutes from the border to their house. So since then, it might as well be 3,000 miles.

CO: And BC — "Before COVID" — how often did you make that crossing?

DC: [chuckling] That'll be the new BC! Before COVID, it was several times a month I would have crossed into Windsor. I don't recall many two-week periods where I wouldn't have crossed and gone to see friends or family.

CO: Would you have to face a 14-day quarantine any time you cross? Is that the issue?

DC: Correct. I mean, I can... I can cross right now if I wanted to, but having them track me in the app and having to prove 14-day quarantine, who can step away from their life at that point and be able to just put their life on hold for two weeks?

CO: I understand you did have an unusual opportunity to see your parents in the spring. Can you tell us about that?

DC: It kind of started with... with a photo. I'm a professional photographer, and I thought, how can I do something unique to, you know, use this opportunity to be able to even see my family? So I... I got a long lens and found what I... what I could find the shortest distance across the river to be able to photograph my parents. And they brought my niece and nephew with them and... and surprised me with some signs that said, we miss you, we love you.

CO: It really is a beautiful photo because it's a gorgeous day, and it's just dappled with sunshine. You can see it's spring. And these… these [chuckle] parents of yours are standing there with their signs about how they love you and miss you. And so, what were the emotions of being able to see them through your lens?

DC: It wasn't until I actually saw them waving to me because they were on the phone so I could position them and get them where I'd like them to be. And it was just that suddenly that connection of being able to see them moving, it kind of, you know, overwhelmed me for a minute or two. It made the matter just seem even more ridiculous that I can see them from this distance, but I'm not allowed to get any closer, even though, even then, I had been fully quarantined for about four months at that point.

CO: It's surreal to see that photo, actually. And I guess it must resonate with so many people?

DC: Umm-hmm. I've had very... I've had a lot of strangers reach out and share their stories with me and their struggles.

CO: You have a stage right here that I'm... people, members of government, listen to this show. [chuckling] So what would you say to Canada's federal government if you could speak to them directly, as you are now?

DC: I mean. I would say this is so long overdue. I understand this... this is not an easy path to go through, and I do support what they're doing. I wish they would look at science a little more, though. When I read in articles today, their reasoning for not opening the border sooner was that they don't know about the transmission aspect of fully vaccinated people. When over here, as of tomorrow, June 22nd, all COVID restrictions are being lifted in Michigan. So I wish the two countries would sync up their information a little quicker [both chuckling] and get on the same page.

CO: What are you looking forward to? What's the one thing you are anticipating, you and your daughter, about that reunion that is inevitable?

DC: I honestly just want to see my parents, and I want to be able to sit and hug my mom and dad again. Americans don't go over to Canada to shop. You know, we go over to see our loved ones. And that's all we... we want at this point. It really has brought a new perspective on the value of being able to be with your loved ones.

CO: And what's your daughter saying about what she is anticipating?

DC: She said, I could just bring her over and leave her for a month — like she missed them so much, and she's grown so much that she can't wait to see them and... and just, you know, hug her Grandma and Papa again.

CO: Derek, I hope that reunion is great, and it is going to happen [laughing] one way or another. Thanks for speaking with us.

DC: Thank you very much.

TS: Derek Cookson is a dual Canadian-American citizen living in Michigan. We reached him in Royal Oak, near Detroit.

[music: ambient]

Scotland Sex Tour

Guest: Kate Stephenson

TS: Tour guides with the National Trust of Scotland usually lead many Tilley-hat-wearing tourists around crumbling castles and bygone country houses. But this year, the Trust is trying something different and something a lot more risqué. The Gladstone's Land property in Edinburgh will be offering an uncensored exploration of the sex lives of Scots — beginning in the 17th century. And it's for mature audiences only. Kate Stephenson will be leading the tour. She's a cultural historian at the National Trust of Scotland. We reached her in Edinburgh. And a quick note: it's a sex tour, so Carol and Ms. Stephenson will be talking about sex. In detail.

CO: Kate, what makes you think kings and queens and historic houses are all very fine, but let's offer a tour of Scottish sex?

KATE STEPHENSON: [chuckling] Well, it's something we don't talk about a lot. And I personally think social history is absolutely fascinating and tells us so much about those kings and queens and what they did in their lives and how they interacted with each other. And also about normal people, people like us.

CO: What are some of the amorous activities that you understand were going on in Gladstone's Land?

KS: Well, all sorts. But we know in the 17th century, for instance, that people were just as experimental in terms of who they are having sex with, what position they're in or where they're doing it as they are today. So we know that there's instances of people seising the opportunity to have sex at the back of a shop when there's no customers around. We know that people are trying all sorts of innovative positions.

CO: And how do you know they're experimenting with different positions?

KS: There are novels and descriptions. So there's an incredible one from a pornographic novel from the 17th century called the "School of Venus", which essentially is a conversation between two women. And they list all sorts of different sexual positions in it. And some of them are incredibly creative. We'd recognize many of the sort of the standard ones, but they talk about things like "the wheelbarrow". They talk about a particularly logistically difficult one, which involves the woman bending over, throwing her skirts and her coat over her head. And then the gentleman essentially running at her from behind with a "standing prick" is the phrase that it uses, which sounds incredibly complex. [CO laughing] Yeah, absolutely. Very diverse.

CO: OK, but you said earlier that privacy is a big problem here, right? The kings and queens might have had their chambers, but these are people who are sharing their flats with all kinds of people and children and dogs and everything else. [chuckle] So how did they manage... maybe that's why they were running at them so quickly — that they had no time to do it any other way?

KS: [laughing] To get it... get over swiftly. So you could lock doors. And often, people seem to have had sex in the afternoons if they're from big families because that's a sort of a lull in trading and also a time when your children might be playing outside, your servants might be out at market. So you were absolutely seizing the opportunity. The other thing that you get is a lot of the big beds from the 17th and 18th century have curtains around them. And so you can create a little bit, a modicum, of privacy by pulling the curtains. And then, at least if you are walked in on, they... they don't see everything. But despite the fact that big families were sharing single rooms, even if they were quite wealthy, sex did remain a private act. It wasn't something that you did with other people in the room.

CO: OK, and speaking of children, what do they do for contraception?

KS: So the earliest examples of condoms you get are either made from animal gut, usually pig's gut, or from cotton or linen fabric.

CO: What?

KS: And there's a lot of --

CO: Wait a second, linen… linen? Like, you made condoms out of linen?

KS: Umm-hmm, yep. So there aren't any surviving examples of those. There's lots of the animal gut. And actually, this is something that I've been really interested in. So we've actually made some replicas at Gladstone's Land, and that's something you get to see on the tour. But it just raises so many questions because at least animal gut, you can imagine it forming a barrier. Whereas obviously, fabric is very permeable. There's no lubrication to it. So it would really chafe. [CO laughs] And you've got seams around it, which you could imagine would cause all sorts of uncomfortable experiences. So we think, having recreated them, that they must have dipped them in something like animal fat or oil. But it's really just opened up a huge area of research that nobody's really looked into at all, which is absolutely fascinating and also a little bit cringeworthy.

CO: OK, but in your research, [both laughing] you've been able to show what it looks like. Has any… [chuckling] have you done... gone as far as having anyone try it out?

KS: [laughing] No! Looking for willing volunteers, if anyone would like to.

CO: We'll put the call out. Someone wants to experiment [KS chuckles] with a linen condom. You also mentioned that this is also a time when we know it always has been the case that LGBTQ relationships were in Scotland at this time, and that... but what can you tell us about that? How... how free were people to be able to conduct those relationships at that time?

KS: So it's quite mixed. So in terms of lesbian couples, there is so little information, and that's because it was never outlawed. People just didn't think it existed. In terms of gay relationships, sort of men, we have a little bit more information. And that is because we've got court records. So in England from the early 18th century, they were very, very heavily Persecuted. And there were a lot of trials. There were a lot of executions. But in Scotland, because of Scots law, which requires two pieces of evidence to condemn someone, it was much, much harder to prove that somebody had engaged in sodomy. So actually, there were no convictions for sodomy in Scotland during the 18th century and only a handful in the 19th century.

CO: Tourists you get to the Royal Mile are usually looking to, as we mentioned, for things that are more traditionally [cuckling] part of the history. So what are you expecting? How do you think people are going to respond to this X-rated part of the Royal Mile?

KS: This weekend has been wild! We... so we've had a little bit of publicity this weekend about it, and we sold out all of the tours that we've scheduled over the weekend. So there's clearly a demand for it. We are still doing the traditional side of things. You can just come and visit and have a wander around or do a general tour of the property. And so you don't have to... you don't have to see this side of it if you're not interested.

CO: So there's no danger that if you're taking Gran on that trip that she's always wanted to go and see... and see Scotland, that she's not going to certainly be confronted with a linen condom?

KS: Not... not at all. No, we lock that away until we do the tours. [both chuckling] So, yeah, if you just want to come and visit and you don't... you don't want to see this side of it at all, you don't have to. This is just if you want to choose and come and see a linen condom the option is there.

CO: Well, it sounds like a lot of fun. Kate, it's great to talk to you. Thank you.

KS: Well, thank you for having me on. It's been great to talk to you too.

TS: Kate Stephenson is a cultural historian at the National Trust of Scotland. We reached her in Edinburgh. You can learn more about the tour of Scottish sex history on our website at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: electronic]

Joni Mitchell’s ‘Blue’ Is 50

TS: After all these years we're still really feeling Blue. Because “Blue” — Joni Mitchell's fourth studio album — is just as alive as it was 50 years ago when a young singer-songwriter from Saskatchewan was getting ready to release it into the world. Think California, River, A Case of You ... written in the aftermath of a breakup. And yet, Joni Mitchell says a lot of people really weren't feeling Blue at first. In a rare new interview she says people seemed to think she'd gone too far and exposed too much. She told the LA Times - quote - : "It was kind of like Dylan going electric. They were afraid. Is this contagious?" Well, it wasn't. At least, not in a bad way. And we're about to get even more 'Blue'. A collection of demos and outakes from the album came out today ahead of the official anniversary tomorrow. Later this year, there will be a big box set reissue. Which is great and everything...but not likely to improve on the original. Because half a century later...'Blue' still sounds like the perfect way to be.

[music: ambient]

Part 2: Treaty 11 Replica Jacket, Yosemite Highline Walk

Treaty 11 Replica Jacket

Guest: Georgina Frankie

TS: "Double-breasted with peaked lapels, three buttons, slightly form-fitting." A description of a jacket that was designed to commemorate the one-hundredth anniversary of the signing of Treaty 11 — in what is now the Northwest Territories. It was the last of Canada's numbered treaties with First Nations — and covered nearly one million square kilometres of land. For Georgina Frankie, that moment in history has deep personal significance. And so the Tłı̨chǫ seamstress has been hard at work on creating a fitting contribution to an exhibit that will mark the Treaty's centenary. A replica of the military-style jacket given to chiefs who signed the Treaty in 1921. We reached Georgina Frankie in Yellowknife.

CO: Georgina, just first of all, can you just describe the jacket that you've created? What does it look like?

GEORGINA FRANKIE: It's like an old 1920s military jacket. It's made out of melted cloth wool. It's navy.

CO: Uh-huh. So it's like a blue serge, like a real military jacket?

GF: Yes, yes, yes.

CO: And what... and there are things on it. Can you describe what is... what emblems are there?

GF: Well, the... the original, like looking at the pictures, it looked like it had a cloth or twill ribbing kind of thing on it with a little bit of braided embellishment on it. So we kind of like originally wanted to do a porcupine quills, but we couldn't find in a short time. So the elders advice is just go with the beads. And we went with three different shades of yellow. And then we took a 200-year-old magazine from the Museum of Civilization. There's a pointed moccasin design on it. So we took that design and just broke it up into three of them and put it on the arm and also on the neck as well.

CO: Wow! These... these... these jackets in 1921, these were the jackets, these military-style jackets, were presented to the chiefs who signed that Treaty 11. So what would it have meant to them? What do you think that symbolized to those who signed and got these jackets?

GF: Well, for our Tłı̨chǫ, we had Monfwi, who was chosen to be chief in 1921, to speak for the peace treaty that that was to be signed. So his coat is… is so beautiful that as long as the sun rises, the river flows, and the land does not move, we will not be restricted from our heritage rights. We will have our culture, our language, our way of life.

CO: And this is what Chief Monfwi, he said this. His understanding of Treaty 11 was that the Indigenous people of what's now that Northwest Territories, that they didn't give anything up. They didn't cede their rights to their territory, in his view, did they?

GF: No, no. For the Tłı̨chǫ, we have, like, both the comprehensive land claims and self-government. So we do have our own government and our own land, which is part of the agreement, yes.

CO: But Treaty 11 is still controversial in that it was... it was... was written in Ottawa. There were no... no negotiations. It was done in advance. And it was designed to serve the interests of Ottawa, of... of national interests to get mineral rights. What did... what did Indigenous people get out of it, in your view?

GF: I think when we look at the history of our Indigenous people, it was never about, like, you know, having the minerals or having the money, it's just about living, having clean water and clean air. And we're still be able to live off the land freely. So in terms of monetary, in terms of mineral rights, in terms... like right now, very there needs to be justice that needs to be served of what happened to these children. So, our leaders, I cannot speak for them, but I can only speak on my behalf. [chuckling] So this is my view on how I look at things, yes.

CO: And your view comes from yourself as a survivor of residential schools. Your mother was also a survivor of residential schools. And now, this 100th anniversary of Treaty 11 comes just... just weeks after this, this horrible discovery of the graves of 215 children. What have these past few weeks been like for you and your mother?

GF: For us, like we... we have to remain strong. But also, as a survivor, we break down, we cry because we feel the pain of those who didn't make it home. We feel the pain of not having a proper resting place. You know, we still have a lot of healing. We're all on our journey. Like, my mom still doesn't talk about her part yet.

CO: Indigenous people have known for some time that their children didn't come home, but this is... a lot of Canadians are just starting to understand this now. I'm wondering what you... what the creation of this jacket? What do you want to communicate? What do you want people to understand by this presentation of this jacket? What should it say to us?

GF: I would like to say to Canada, honour your peace that was promised to us when you signed in 1921. I think that's what I would like to see that jacket to represent is the promises. A peace that is yet to be fulfilled.

CO: Georgina, this is a beautiful object you've created, this jacket, full of symbolism. And I hope that your message of peace comes across to others with it.

GF: Thank you.

CO: Thank you, Georgina. Bye.

GF: Goodbye.

TS: Georgina Frankie is a Tłı̨chǫ seamstress and artist whose work will be part of an upcoming exhibit marking the 100th anniversary of the signing of Treaty 11. We reached her in Yellowknife.

[music: sombre]

BC Church fire Investigations

TS: Two Catholic churches in BC have burned to the ground. Overnight, flames could be seen at Sacred Heart Church on Penticton Indian Band land. Around the same time, on Osoyoos Indian Band land, another church was burning. The communities are less than an hour's drive apart. Greg Gabriel is chief of the Penticton Indian Band. And this afternoon, he spoke with CBC News about the investigation.

SOUNDCLIP

GREG GABRIEL: We have investigators on scene right now, and they're sifting through the remains of the church. And it's hoped that they will find something that they can use to determine the cause and maybe who is responsible. We also have some video surveillance footage from an adjacent building. We're hoping that it would provide more help and assistance with determining the cause.

ANDREW NICHOLS: Can you tell us a little bit about this church? It was a functioning church. It was still an open church. It wasn't abandoned, right?

GG: No, that's right. We've had the church in our community since 1912. And throughout the many, many years, a lot of families and even non-band members will attend the church on a regular basis. It was only up until about a couple of years ago that the attendance kind of dwindled. So they started only having services maybe once a month.

AN: And Chief, of course, this comes, you know, just a few weeks after the revelations of preliminary findings that show 215 children are buried on the site of the Kamloops residential school, which is not that far away from... from where you are. What do you make of the greater context of what's happening in terms of these revelations?

GG: Well, there's no doubt there's a lot of anger in every Indigenous community across Canada after those 215 innocent children's graves were found and discovered. I'm angry. You know, I... my community is angry. I have family members that were sent to residential school, whether it was in Kamloops or Cranbrook. I have four or five of them, but… that are no longer with us. But they experienced the residential school trauma. And, you know, I'm not saying this may be the cause of our church going up in flames. But again, there's a lot of anger that is sitting there and needs to be addressed.

TS: That was Penticton Indian Band Chief Greg Gabriel speaking with CBC News Network host Andrew Nichols this afternoon. Police are calling the fires suspicious. And in a statement today, an RCMP spokesperson said that it's "sensitive to the recent events," but the force won't speculate on motive.

[music: sombre]

Yosemite Highline Walk

Guests: Moises Monterrubio, Daniel Monterrubio

TS: The views in California's Yosemite National Park are breathtaking. The stunning waterfalls, the towering sequoia trees, the dramatic cliffs. And last week, Daniel and Moises Monterrubio took in that gorgeous view from a unique vantage point. They were standing mid-air, nearly 500 metres above ground, on a slackline. They rigged up a piece of nylon webbing across two cliffs. And carefully kept their balance as they walked the line. Their high altitude act just broke the record for the longest highline ever walked in the park and in all of California. We reached Daniel and Moises in San Francisco.

CO: Daniel and Moises, congratulations.

MOISES MONTERRUBIO: Thank you.

DANIEL MONTERRUBIO: Thank you so much.

MM: Thank you very much.

CO: Has the rush of what you did last week, has it worn off, Daniel?

DM: Not really. I don't think it'll wear off for a while.

CO: And Moises, how about you?

MM: No, I'm still very excited. Right now, we've been going over footage and telling stories from different angles, and it's still very exciting to hear everyone's point of view.

CO: Well, the photos and the images are really… are really extraordinary, and we can't do justice to it on radio. So just describe the place that you actually crossed on this highline?

MM: We were in Yosemite, California, more specifically, a well-known trailhead by the name of Taft Point. We rigged a slackline. That was 160 metres long, or about 2,800 feet.

CO: From where to where?

MM: It went from Taft Point to another anchor that we know it in the slackline world as your mom. There's no actual name from the park.

CO: And then, you walked across this, right? You and your brother. Maybe... maybe I'll get... get Daniel to pick it up here. Tell us about this walk that you took?

DM: Well, I actually crossed it six times in total. But I had the honour of crossing it first, and I think it's been by far the most amazing highline Experience I've had, just because of all the work we put into it, like all the dangers and obstacles we faced while getting the line across. It was just... it was just amazing. I felt very lucky to be walking. And coming back, like from the far anchor back to where everyone was, and having everyone cheering and visiting me with open arms, it was very, very special.

CO: It's wonderful! And just because people I know are immediately thinking, what happens if you fall off? This is not like tightrope walking where you... a lot of people do it... they do without the safety harness. What did you have in order to prevent you from hitting the ground?

DM: Well, yeah, we do use a... we were a harness around our waist to which we tie a rope. And as we walk, we just drag it, drag it across behind us. And if we fall, it'll catch us, and we'll fall maybe like one metre, metre and a half maybe. And we climb the leash back up, and we're able to sit and stand back up.

CO: OK. How many feet, how far was the fall if you did fall?

CO: Well, the highest point from the slackline directly to the bottom was, I believe, 400, 450 metres. But that was just directly to the bottom. And then you could still see the whole valley, like the exposure, on the... on the horizon and everything. It was just huge.

CO: Moises, did you cross without falling?

MM: I did, yeah. I was the first person to do it.

CO: And Daniel?

DM: No, my best crossing was with only one fall. It was my last crossing, and I was like 200 metres away, and I fell once, which was kind of sad. But it doesn't matter. [chuckle]

CO: And how long did it take? How many minutes did it take to cross that?

DM: My fastest was 38 minutes. And Moes' was --

MM: I did it in 37 minutes without falls.

CO: Wow! OK, so this accomplishment is tremendous. But you had an amazing view, right? What was it like to be out there on that, Moises?

MM: I don't think I can come up with the right words to describe it because it was very unreal. You get to see it from a different point of view, obviously, from... from the slackline, just thinking about all the work that was done. And even while being on the slackline, you would look down at the bottom and all the memories of days before, putting in the work down there, it was... it was very rewarding being out and just like having El Capitan right in front of you, that was just like the cherry on top. Lie, that was very sweet. I mean, that's why we chose that location.

CO: Because you had what right in front of you?

MM: El Capitan, that's a famous feature in Yosemite.

CO: And you were... that was what you're looking at, and that was an inspiration for you?

MM: Yeah. I mean, the view was amazing. You had El Capitan; then you had the waterfalls. It was just amazing.

CO: Daniel, what was going through your mind?

DM: At some point, I'd try to focus only on walking, focussing on my every step, on my breathing. In other instances I would just like maybe turn a little bit to the side and face the whole valley. And, you know, just… just have a lot of thoughts about my future projects, like about my friends, about everything we've done together. I got to walk one time at sunset, and that was probably my favourite experience.

CO: Wow! You're listening to music, is that right?

DM: Yeah, yeah, I do take headphones with me. Although, at some points, I took them off just to not hear anything. But for the most part, I did have music with me.

CO: And what were you listening to?

DM: A whole variety of things. I would say, like, flowy music, something not very rushed so that I would feel like obviously, I would feel very excited, but I don't want to feel too excited because then I get… [CO chuckles] Like, it's a long line, so you had to keep your... your calm for a while.

CO: You don't want to be playing something that makes you want to dance.

DM: Yeah, I mean, I was dancing for a little bit [both chuckling] at some point, I guess. Not as much as some other friends. But yeah.

CO: Moises, what is it about this that you want to do? Why does it... why does this business of crossing the line across someplace like Yosemite, what's the appeal for you?

MM: I think, I mean, you get to inspire future generations, you get to show people that things like this are possible, and it's just teamwork.

CO: And Daniel?

DM: I would say that, and just... like, what slackline gives you is just a lot of confidence, not just for doing… like, practicing the sport, but in all other aspects of life. Like, the fact of knowing what we're capable of up there. Like, I take it with me through every day… my everyday life.

CO: Well, again, congratulations to both of you, and it's great to talk to you. Thank you.

DM: Thank you very much.

MM: Thank you so much for your time.

CO: Bye.

DM: Bye.

TS: Moises and Daniel Monterrubio are brothers who recently broke the record for the longest highline walk in California. They were in San Francisco.

[music: pop beat]

French Cicada Song

TS: "Touche pas, touche pas aux cigales. Touche pas, ou tu prends une mandale!" That's the chorus from a song by the French band Aioli. Loosely translated, the lyrics are: "Don't touch, don't touch the cicadas. Don't touch, or you get slapped!" That might seem a bit aggressive. Especially for some of you listening south of the border, in states that are crawling with Brood X cicadas. But for southern France — and in particular, the village of Le Beausset — the annual return of "cigales" is cause for celebration. And — apparently an effort to protect the insect. Le Beausset is the self-proclaimed cicada capital of France. Tourist giftshops are lined with cicada knick knacks. And last year, a giant statue was erected for the heaven-sent insects — whose drone-like buzz is believed to keep people from dozing off in the hot Provençal sun. It all sounds romantic. But it might be a slap in the face for tourists who wish the insect would just buzz off. Here's Aioli, with "Touche pas aux cigales."

[music: "Touche pas aux cigales" by Aioli/ska]

Part 3: Zambia PM Kenneth Kaunda Obit, Crayfish Antidepressants

Alberta Open Summer

TS: For Canadians outside Alberta, it may seem surreal to hear that provinces' reopening plans for July 1st. That's when Alberta will be lifting nearly all of its COVID-19 public health measures, now that more than 70 per cent of eligible Albertans have had their first shot. Premier Jason Kenney made the announcement on Friday when he said the end of this "terrible time" was just a couple of weeks away. But his optimism has not been embraced by all — including some doctors who argue that lifting of restrictions goes too far, too fast — amid the existence of the Delta variant. Jay Singh owns Silvermoon Banquets in Edmonton. And this morning, he welcomed the Premier's announcement — and spoke about his plans for next week.

SOUNDCLIP

JAY SINGH: For the initial part, which will still carry the same COVID protocols that we did when we were open last year on a limited basis. So are all our staff’s going to be in masks, gloves, sanitizers available. We're still going to encourage physical distancing, and it's ultimately up to the clients and the guests if they want to follow it or not.

MARK CONNOLLY: So, Jay, you are mainly in the wedding business. When is your first wedding booked?

JS: First of July.

MC: First of July, yeah. Do you have many more after that?

JS: Yes. First, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, Seventh. It just keeps going?

MC: [chuckling] Are you serious?!

JS: [chuckling] Yes.

MC: Every day?

JS: Yes, for the first 10 days of July.

MC: [chuckling] What's it been like to call folks and tell them, OK, you can have your wedding here?

JS: You know, like all weekend, I've been just doing phone calls with my clients after the announcement on Friday.

MC: Yeah.

JS: And I think, you know, credit to the government that they gave us a pretty good idea that, you know, we would be open by Canada Day. So it wasn't a big surprise. But, you know, it's really nice to get that assurance for sure for some of our clients, especially, you know... but one thing that we didn't expect is totally, totally open up.

MC: Right.

JS: What I was prepping my clients was like, OK, maybe try for like maybe 50 guests or 100 guests, you know? But now, it's you can have as many guests as you like, so.

MC: So how big are some of those going to be then?

JS: We are usually between 400 to 500 guests.

MC: Woah, OK. Do you have any worries about opening without any restrictions? I mean, it would be a terrible thing to have, you know, an outbreak at a wedding or something like that. You certainly wouldn't want that to happen.

JS: Yes, yes. And that's why, you know, we... we do... we are going to follow, our staff is going to follow, the COVID restrictions that were in place last year when we were open. And, as well, we were going to encourage physical distancing, hand sanitizers everywhere and stuff like that because we still, I mean, COVID is still with us, and we need to acknowledge that. But, you know, at the same time, we also need to move forward and bring it to a… become a part of the process that brings it to an end.

TS: That was Jay Singh, the owner of Silvermoon Banquets in Edmonton, speaking with CBC host Mark Connolly today.

[music: ambient]

Bercow Joins Labour

TS: The former Speaker has now spoken. Former British Conservative MP John Bercow announced yesterday that he had joined the Labour Party. Mr. Bercow rose to fame as the House of Commons Speaker in Britain, with his no-nonsense moderation of many tumultuous Brexit debates… not to mention his bellows of 'order' — which have been replayed and remixed all over the Internet. Here is Mr. Bercow explaining his decision to Sky News host Trevor Phillips.

SOUNDCLIP

JOHN BERCOW: It's not personal against Boris Johnson. I do think that he is someone who has only a nodding acquaintance with the truth in a leap year. And I think that the utter contempt with which he has treated parliament is lamentable. And I think it has exacerbated the very strong feelings of resentment towards him because I think a lot of people feel that's not the way to behave. Telling the truth in and to parliament matters. Circumventing parliament is wrong. Treating parliament with disdain is objectionable. But no, I have, over a long period, evolved my political thinking. Now I'm a private citizen. As Robert Buckland says, I'm entitled to take a political view, and my view is a left-of-centre view. I identify with Labour values, Labour principles, Labour Party.

TREVOR PHILLIPS: I'm going to come to Labour in a second. But you've used the words xenophobic, nationalistic. You have just said some, let's say, less than fond things about Boris Johnson. It's the party you don't like, isn't it? And you don't like Conservatives anymore?

JB: Well, I don't dislike individual Conservatives. I have still a number of Conservative friends. And I can admire and respect very much, Trevor, people across the political spectrum with a vast miscellany of different views on the understanding that they're honest and principled and standing up for the principles in which they believe. So it's not a question of personalities. It's a question of the issues. But if you say, do I like the Conservative Party, the answer is no. And I'm absolutely clear that I am not these days a Conservative. So it's not about Boris Johnson. As Tony Benn used to say, it's not about personalities. It's about policies.

TP: All right. You know what they're saying, aren't they? Boris Johnson didn't give you a period, and Keir Starmer will.

JB: No. Well, I can answer that very simply. I've had absolutely no discussion whatsoever, either with Keir Starmer or any other member of the Labour leadership, about that matter. There has been no barter, no trade, no deal whatsoever. And if I may very politely say so, and I do, the people who make what they think is that potent and coruscating criticism of me are operating according to their own rather low standards. Let's deal with the issue rather than impugn people's motives. It's got nothing to do with that whatsoever.

TS: That was former British MP and Speaker John Bercow explaining to Sky News why he left the Conservatives to join the Labour Party.

[music: synth groove]

Zambia PM Kenneth Kaunda Obit

Guest: Bizeck Phiri

TS: He was one of the last surviving icons of Africa's liberation movement. On Thursday, authorities in Zambia announced the country's first president Kenneth Kaunda had died, while being treated for pneumonia. He was 97. Here he is, speaking in 1978.

KENNETH KAUNDA: God is healing me. I can never sell out Africa. Never! Not me! We are men and women of principle. We have done all these things in search of peace. But it has to be genuinely peace, based on sincere, genuine majority rule. Anything else can kill us! Zambians will be born out of our blood. We continue to fight.

TS: Zambia's first president, Kenneth Kaunda, also played a pivotal role in ending colonial rule in neighbouring Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Namibia, Angola, and South Africa. Bizeck Phiri is a history professor at the University of Zambia. We reached Professor Phiri in the capital, Lusaka.

CO: Bizeck, first of all, I'm sorry for the loss of your friend.

BIZECK PHIRI: Yes, it has been a serious challenge. This is a person that we all, as Zambians, looked forward to. He led this country in the struggle for independence. And when he became president, he indeed ensured that he was like a teacher to all of us. He mentored, you know, the Zambians on how to be good people. And also, most importantly, he was a centre of uniting this country.

CO: How is the passage, the death of Kenneth Kaunda, being marked in Zambia today?

BP: When the president died, the Republican president declared 21 days of national mourning. And today, we were just informed through the spokesperson of the government that starting Wednesday of this week, the body of President Kaunda will be taken to the 10 provinces, and then he will be buried on the 7th of July.

CO: He was 97 years old. And so his life, it spanned such an extraordinary period of history in Africa in general. But he was one... he was one of many African leaders who were trying to liberate their countries from colonial rule. But what set him apart? What was different about Kenneth Kaunda?

BP: What was different about Kenneth Kaunda is that in western Zambia attained independence in 1964, one of the things that he implored the Zambians was that Zambia's independence was meaningless if the other countries around Zambia remained under colonial rule. And, therefore, he informed and requested Zambians to participate in collaborating with those who are fighting for their independence. And we are talking about countries like Angola, Mozambique, Zimbabwe, South Africa and Namibia. And the Zambians also went and worked with the president Kaunda's vision. And we accommodated in Zambia refugees from all these countries that I've mentioned. And we participated in the struggle for independence. In 1975, President Kaunda declared that everyone who was finishing high school should be military trained, and I was one of those who were trained in order to participate in the contribution towards the struggle for independence for the other countries while also defending and protecting the industries in Zambia. Because way a lot of bombings that were taking place from colonial governments that I've mentioned.

CO: As you mentioned, these... these white supremacy governments, they didn't... didn't appreciate with what Kenneth Kaunda was doing. So how did they... how did those governments, those white governments, respond to his efforts?

BP: The white governments in the countries that I mentioned looked at Kaunda and Zambia as an enemy because Zambia was hosting the refugees and the freedom fighters. There were a lot of women, so they never appreciated that role that the president Kaunda was playing. However, the freedom fighters from these countries really appreciated what Zambia was doing and what Kaunda was doing. And for Zambians, he ensured that Zambians appreciated that they should not look at that because of the bombings that were taking place, that the country was being destroyed.

BC School Name Change

TS: Ki Louie has finally taught his last class at Prince Charles Secondary school. Mr. Louie has been calling to change the name of the BC school. He says it's offensive to the local Yaqan Nukiy community because of its ties to the Crown and residential school system. Last week, school trustees approved a temporary name change to Creston Valley Secondary School until a new name is chosen. Mr. Louie spoke about the decision — along with his uncle, Robert Louie — who was the first person from the Lower Kootenay band to graduate from the school.

SOUNDCLIP

KI LOUIE: For me, I personally, first off, as an athlete, when I played for that school, I didn't like that we played for Prince Charles. I wanted to play for my home community. Secondly, I started doing research to what happened to the Lower Kootenay band members and their history with the school. And found that once again, my uncle Robert was the first graduate, which I didn't know until he helped us raise the flag, the Lower Kootenay flag, on the school a few years ago. So he told me he was the first graduate back in 1971. And that led me to like, well, if he was the first, what happened to everyone else? And so I started researching just different Lower Kootenay bands or members and their experiences there, and it just wasn't an inviting place for Lower Kootenay. And the name was just a symbol of that. So I tried to find that. And that's why it was important for me.

CHRIS WALKER: Now, Robert, as... as Ki mentioned, you... you're the first graduate from that school. Could you take us back? What was your experience like at the school in the late 60s, early 70s?

ROBERT LOUIE: Well, it was an eye-opener. I had no idea I was going to graduate because of the racism and prejudice and what have you. And what was because of my friends who pushed me to tell me that I could do it. Coming from a small community, First Nations community, it was... it was pretty hard just to go to school because they made teasing and what have you. So I dug really deep and started to take things a little more serious that I am who I am. And no one was going to push me back and push me down. And my dream was to graduate because it has never been done.

CW: And how do you... I mean, what do you think of the name change of the school?

RL: It's a long time coming. First of all, I like to think the people... the people who supported the initiative. I would like to give them a huge thanks and applause because, like Ki would say, it's a needed change.

TS: Robert Louie — the first person from the Lower Kootenay band to graduate from Creston Valley Secondary school — speaking with CBC host Chris Walker. Before that, you heard Mr. Louie's nephew, Ki, who teaches at the school and led the fight to change the school's name.

[music: jazz]

‘Ideas’ Promo: "George F. Kennan: An American Life."

TS: The question of "How to deal with Russia" is a perennial one, and certainly has been asked in recent weeks as U.S. president Joe Biden prepared to meet Russian President Vladimir Putin. On “Ideas” tonight, the story of a diplomat who helped inspire the Cold War. Seventy five years ago, George F. Kennan, a U.S. diplomat in Moscow, wrote a telegram to Washington which at 5,000-plus words, was the longest the State Department had ever received. In it he explained how the leadership of Soviet Russia saw the world, and what to do about it. John Lewis Gaddis is the author of the Pulitzer Prize-winning biography, "George F. Kennan: An American Life."

SOUNDCLIP

JOHN LEWIS GADDIS: It was composed in a complete... moment of complete frustration and impatience because his previous long, eloquent document had all gone to Washington by pouch, and nobody ever reached pouched documents. They don't have time. So he, intended to resign from the Foreign Service, decided to break all the rules and send this message by telegram. It was 5,000 words, way beyond the legal limit within the State Department for this. And it was composed in a fit of rage, really, combined with the flu and a toothache and several other maladies. [chuckling] Just being in Moscow in February is bad enough. And when this came through, people read it in Washington first because it had broken the rules. But once they got beyond the first paragraph of it, they said there's something really amazing about this. And so it immediately went viral within Washington before that term had been invented. But that's exactly what happened.

TS: That's tonight on Ideas, with Nahlah Ayed, following As It Happens.

[music: 70s cop show?]

Crayfish Antidepressants

Guest: Lindsey Reisinger

TS: Crayfish aren't picky about what they eat. They gobble up plants, insects, leaf litter, small fish, and even other crayfish. So when researchers at the University of Florida put them into a tank of water with trace amounts of antidepressants added, they knew the crayfish were going to ingest it. They just weren't sure how it would affect the creatures. Now they know — and their findings were just published in the journal Ecosphere. Lindsey Reisinger is an assistant professor at the University of Florida, and was involved in the study. We reached her in Gainesville, Florida.

CO: Lindsey, what got you interested in crayfish and antidepressants?

LINDSEY REISINGER: Well, we know that small amounts of antidepressants are ending up in freshwater ecosystems. And these compounds are biologically active. So they're... you know, they're really designed to affect people, people's chemistry at really low concentrations. So we were thinking that they might affect also the behaviour of organisms at really low concentrations.

CO: How are the antidepressants getting into the water system?

LR: They get in a number of different ways. So one way is that when people are prescribed medication, all of that medication that you take doesn't get metabolized. So you do excrete some of that. So, you know, when you flush the toilet, that's going to go to the wastewater treatment plant and some of it doesn't get taken out by the wastewater treatment plant. So it ends up in freshwater ecosystems. And then another main way that I think people have more control over is that, you know, sometimes when people have leftover medications, they're flushing it down the toilet or, you know, not disposing of it properly. And so that can cause more of the medication to end up in freshwater ecosystems.

CO: Well, there are a lot of creatures in those systems. So why did you choose crayfish to study?

LR: So we specifically chose crayfish in part because they just tend to be really abundant and they're fairly large compared to other invertebrates. So they have the potential to have really big ecological impacts. They're extremely omnivorous. So they eat a whole bunch of different food resources like algae, and dead leaves and aquatic insects. And they're also major, a major food source for predators such as wading birds and fish.

CO: OK, so you did a controlled study of the crayfish. How did they respond to the... to being in this antidepressant environment?

LR: Yeah, so we saw changes in behaviour after the crayfish were exposed to this low concentration for about two weeks. And the changes we observed were that crayfish that were exposed to the antidepressant were bolder. So we put them in a tank, in a novel environment inside a shelter. And we looked at how quickly they came out of the shelter into the novel environment. and they came out about twice as fast if they had been exposed to the antidepressant. In this tank, we fed in some water that smelled like a food resource. And in another area of the tank, we fe in water that smelled like another crayfish to see whether, you know, which of these two smells the crayfish preferred and what they really what they wanted to do. And when the crayfish weren't exposed to antidepressant, they sort of just walked around the tank and they didn't seem to prefer either of these smells. But if they were exposed to the antidepressant, they spent about three times more time going after the food. So they were much more interested in foraging.

CO: And why did you also have the smell of other crayfish?

LR: So there's been some earlier studies where they found that exposure to a different antidepressant could cause crayfish to be more aggressive. And so we thought actually that the exposed crayfish might prefer the smell of the other crayfish and try to go... go find that crayfish. But instead, they preferred the food resource.

CO: [chuckle] So they would look for the other crayfish as an impulse to mate?

LR: So crayfish are actually pretty aggressive, and they... they tend to establish dominance hierarchies. So we would think it probably would go after the other crayfish to... to have contest, sort of battle the other crayfish.

CO: All right. So being territorial then?

LR: Yes.

CO: They eat each other, right?

LR: They will... they will eat each other if one is... is very bad at losing a contest or if one sheds its exoskeleton and is really soft. But most of the time, in the environment, they avoid each other so they don't get eaten.

CO: So what are the consequences? What do you think... why does it matter that they... I mean, it's not good to have all these antidepressants in our water system, to be sure. But what would the consequences for not just the crayfish, but for the food chain?

LR: So based on other studies, crayfish that are bolder or spend more time outside of shelter tend to be more vulnerable to predators. So we think that it might increase predation rates on crayfish if they're not hiding as much. And it's possible if they're spending more time foraging and that actually translates into a higher feeding rate, that they could have larger impacts on some of the other resources in the streams.

CO: There are also things that they just eat each other, but lots of things eat them, right? So does that mean that the antidepressants get passed on to other animals because the crayfish have them?

LR: Yeah, so that's a great question. I mean, we would think that would be true. And interestingly, some of my collaborators on this project have done another study where they've looked at antidepressants in aquatic insects and they found out that the antidepressants can become concentrated or bio-concentrate in the insects. And so that means that the concentration inside the organisms is much higher than the background in the water. And so we don't know for sure that that's what's happening in the crayfish. But that could be happening in the crayfish as well, in which case, you know, you could get a much larger dose going up the food chain.

CO: Good heavens! Is everything in nature going to be on antidepressants at some period of time in the future?

LR: I don't... I don't know the answer to that, [CO chuckles] but it's definitely something we want to... want to think about.

CO: Wow. OK, well, I'm glad you're on it, Lindsey. [laughing] This sounds like a very important study. And I appreciate it and I appreciate speaking with you, too. Thank you.

LR: Yeah. Thank you. It's great to be on.

CO: Take care. Bye-bye.

LR: Bye.

TS: Lindsey Reisinger is a freshwater community ecologist, who teaches at the University of Florida. We reached her in Gainesville.

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June 21, 2021 Episode Transcript

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