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The AIH Transcript for May 20, 2021

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is “As It Happens”.

[Music: Theme]

CO: Clapback. There was sustained applause from some Texas lawmakers yesterday as their governor signed restrictive abortion limits into law. But a Texas Democrat says there is no cause for celebration.

CH: Two wrongs, and finally, a right. A lawyer for two brothers wrongfully convicted of a terrible crime tells us a multi-million dollar settlement is welcome news, but it can't undo what he calls the many tragedies of their case.

CO: False pretences. A BBC royal correspondent talks about the enquiry that concluded journalist Martin Bashir was unethical when securing his famous interview with the late Princess Diana and that the broadcaster was as well.

CH: Taking the plunger. Manitoba's premier asks those who were unsure about getting the COVID-19 vaccine to get in line anyway for the sake of their fellow Manitobans who are getting sick at an alarming rate.

CO: Fleece circus. An Alberta farmer helps a sheep called Big Mama do right by her name as she gives birth to a highly unlikely number of lambs. But where there's a wool, there's a way.

CH: And... number crunching. For the insect phobic, the emergence of billions of Brood 10 cicadas right now is a disaster. But excited insect chefs like our guest will share some recipes for disaster.

CH: “As It Happens”, the Thursday edition. Radio that appreciates a good deal on a good deal of hot wings.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Texas Abortion Law, Princess Di Interview, Cooking Cicadas

Texas Abortion Law

Guest: Donna Howard

CH: Greg Abbott says his state works to save lives -- and that that is exactly what it's doing right now. The Republican governor of Texas has signed Senate Bill 8 into law. It comes after the so-called "fetal heartbeat" bill passed the legislature. It bans abortions as early as six weeks, with medical emergencies as the only exception. It also allows citizens to sue abortion providers. It's been called one of the strictest abortion laws in the US -- and it's likely to be challenged in the courts before it's set to take effect, later this year. Donna Howard is a Democratic member of the Texas House of Representatives, and a former critical care nurse. We reached her in Austin, Texas.

CO: Representative Howard, you have advocated against Bill 8. So how did it feel to watch it signed into law?

DONNA HOWARD: Well, obviously, I wasn't surprised, but it is still kind of gut-wrenching to see these rights taken away from women. I'm old enough to have been around before Roe v. Wade and know how hard we worked for that to happen. And to see this happening all over again is pretty devastating.

CO: Can you just give a sense of what this so-called fetal heartbeat bill... because Texas isn't the only place in the United States that now has this. Just remind us what it does?

DH: Yeah, well, basically what it does is it prohibits abortions from occurring once a so-called fetal heartbeat is detected. Now, of course, that's a misnomer that there is not actually a heart beating early in a pregnancy, but there is cardiac tissue activity that has been construed to be a so-called fetal heartbeat. And it's actually written in the law so that just this electrical activity can register as a heartbeat according to the law. So we're talking about prohibiting abortions as early as what's classified as six weeks gestation, but in actuality would be only four weeks of pregnancy.

CO: The law also allows citizens in Texas to sue anyone who, quote, knowingly engages in conduct that aids or abets the performance or inducement of an abortion, including paying for or reimbursing the costs of an abortion to insurance or otherwise. What does that mean?

DH: It means the most frivolous of frivolous lawsuits. It means that anyone can sue someone that has driven someone to obtain an abortion, has provided any kind of monetary assistance, perhaps even means provided child care for a person to actually go and have an abortion. Certainly, the people who are checking someone into an abortion facility and, of course, those physician or health care providers who are involved with the abortion itself. There are even suggestions that this could perhaps be construed to involve people who make contributions to an organization such as Planned Parenthood that provide abortions. That in that sense, you're still aiding and abetting. The list goes on and on.

CO: And what kinds of fines could result from these... these suits?

DH: Well, they have a floor of 10,000 dollars that could be awarded. If the suit is not successful, there is no compensation for those that were wrongfully sued. And it could go anywhere up from the 10,000. That's just a start.

CO: We've seen elsewhere that anywhere there's a ban on abortion or severe restrictions on abortion does not stop women from getting abortions. And so, what will women in Texas likely do when they want or need an abortion?

DH: The same thing that has been going on for years now with the continuing obstructions that have been put in place session after session here, having to travel to other states, having to travel to Mexico, having to try things that may not be safe to induce an abortion, either physically or with some kind of a medication. But what this really comes down to, it's really a reproductive justice issue, too, because, quite frankly, women of means can typically over the years have been able to access abortion in some form or fashion. They will find someone who can safely provide an abortion. For those without means, they have to resort to unsafe practitioners, to unsafe ways of trying to induce the abortion, or, of course, then they are saddled with having a pregnancy that they were not planning on, did not want to have that... that can certainly impact their ability for educational and career opportunities, change the whole trajectory of their lives.

CO: The governor of your state, Greg Abbott, who has signed this into law, is responding to a significant number of voters in your state who want this legislation. Is that not the case?

DH: Absolutely, that's the case. The polling has shown that the majority of Texans favour having access to this safe, legal, medical procedure. This is health care. This is a medical procedure. And they do, as a majority, support access. Unfortunately, the governor is responding to a narrow base of his supporters who have been demanding this kind of legislation. And he's been empowered this session, in particular, after the last election that we had to go after the so-called red meat issues and has just been checking off the checkboxes. And this is one of the major ones that they've been looking at for years that's been able to be held off by previous legislative bodies where we had Republican leadership that was willing to keep this from getting to the floor. That was not the case this time.

CO: What's likely to become with this legislation, not just in Texas, but elsewhere, are not these laws headed for a showdown in your Supreme Court?

DH: Absolutely, and that's that's always been the intention of those that have been pushing this kind of legislation. Certainly, there is more of a challenge here to determine how to create the necessary legal setup to challenge this in court. Certainly, there are groups such as the ACLU and Planned Parenthood and others that are looking at this to prevent the legislation from ever taking effect. But that being said, we already have a case before the Supreme Court. This would probably be headed that direction as well. The whole goal here is to get to the… our more conservative Supreme Court since the Trump administration has ensured that we have a majority of conservatives on that court.

CO: Do you have any support from Republicans in Texas?

DH: Yes, but I would say that a lot of it has been quiet. Right now, the politics of Texas, there's a lot of in-fighting, if you will, amongst the Republicans. But they're dependent upon getting elected through our primary system, which typically has a greater turnout of the more strident base of the party. So there's much more of a conscious decision to move to the right in order to win your primary election. And that has prevented some of my Republican colleagues who are opposed to this legislation from saying so in a public way.

CO: Representative Howard, we'll leave it there. And thank you for speaking with us.

DH: Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

CH: That was Democratic State Representative Donna Howard, at the Capitol in Austin, Texas.

[music: glassy guitar riff]

Princess Di Interview

Guest: Jonny Dymond

CH: One night in 1995, almost 40 per cent of the British population watched the same program. And gasped in unison periodically throughout. On November 20th of that year, BBC's "Panorama" broadcast host Martin Bashir's one-on-one, tell-all interview with Princess Diana. That interview would launch Mr. Bashir's career -- and reshape the public's perception of the princess and the Royal Family, not just in England, but around the world. Here's an excerpt, in which Mr. Bashir asks Princess Di about her husband's relationship with Camilla Parker-Bowles.

SOUNDCLIP

MARTIN BASHIR: What evidence did you have that their relationship was continuing even though you were married?

PRINCESS DIANA: Oh, a woman's instinct is a very good one. [dry chuckle]

MB: So you were isolated?

PD: Um-hmm, very much so.

MB: Do you think Mrs. Parker-Bowles was a factor in the breakdown of your marriage?

PD: Well, there were three of us in this marriage, so it was a bit crowded.

CH: That was a clip from Martin Bashir's famous interview with Princess Diana in 1995. Well, today, an inquiry concluded that Martin Bashir had used "deceitful behaviour" to land that interview -- including forging documents to make it look like members of the Royal Family were being paid to sell information. The BBC's director general said the broadcaster accepted those conclusions and made a "full and unconditional apology." Jonny Dymond is the BBC's Royal Correspondent. We reached him in London.

CO: Jonny, the clip we just heard was treated, as you know, as a major revelation back in 1995. What comes back for you when you hear that?

JONNY DYMOND: What comes back, Carol, is me sitting in front of the television, literally open-mouthed for nearly the whole duration of the interview. We had never seen anything like it. And back then, I certainly wasn't a royal freak. I wasn't the sort of royal obsessive. But everyone, everyone, seemed to watch that interview. You know, it was back in the days before On-Demand TV. It was when you had to watch something live if you were going to watch it at all. And it felt like the whole country was watching the same thing at the same time and just sitting there stunned, stunned, by the stories, stunned by the fact that a royal was speaking out like this, stunned to have confirmation of stuff that had been swirling around the newspapers for so long. And stunned to see this suddenly sort of vulnerable woman talking about her mental health, talking about her bulimia, talking about self-harming. I mean, everything about it was phenomenal.

CO: And so now this inquiry finds that the... that the interview was obtained through unethical means by BBC journalist Martin Bashir, his tactics and his behaviour. What can you tell us about that?

JD: You know, all the way through, Martin Bashir, who I should say I know. He was a colleague of mine. He used to sit a couple of desks down from me. We used to, you know, chat. But all the way through, he said the documents that he admitted he had had mocked up, bank statements that he'd had mocked up, had nothing to do with Princess Diana giving the interview. And, of course, what is now confirmed is, yes, that's true. But that was a kind of sidestep round the truth. Because what the judge who led the inquiry, a former very senior judge at the inquiry… who led the inquiry, has concluded is that the fake bank statements were used as a way to gain the trust of Diana's brother, Earl Spencer, and then used through him to gain access to Princess Diana. He had fake bank statements created. And he used those bank statements to prove his worth to Diana's brother, and then to gain access to Diana with the help of Diana's brother.

CO: And he said it was a stupid thing to do, though, right?

JD: Yeah, he said it was a stupid thing to do, but he also spent a fair amount of time immediately after the interview denying that he'd ever shown the documents to Diana's brother. And then he sort of fell back on this line that it had nothing to do with her decision. Now, look, Lord Dyson, who led the inquiry, said Diana probably would have given an interview to someone. She was actively casting around to give an interview. That is true. So you’re thrown back onto an issue of journalistic ethics about whether it is the right thing to forge documents to try and gain someone's trust? And it's pretty clear that for the BBC, it is a deep embarrassment that a correspondent did that in the first place, but a brutally deep embarrassment that probably the biggest scoop the BBC has ever had was founded on a lie.

CO: This report, this said... that Lord Dyson has done. What does he say is BBC's responsibility for this? What... how much did the BBC know, and when did they know it?

JD: Well, they certainly didn't know anything before the event. What happened then, after the interview, is slowly newspapers started getting word about these forged bank statements, and there were a series of informal internal inquiries until it was the head of news here back in… what? 1996, holding an inquiry effectively questioning Martin Bashir for an hour and a half. Lord Dyson said that was, in his words, wholly ineffective and asks a series of questions about, for example, why the BBC didn't speak to Diana's brother, Earl Spencer, who would have given a completely different story than the one they heard from Martin Bashir? Why the BBC didn't piece together the various different stories that were flying around and see they did fit? Why the BBC took what Martin Bashir said at face value, even though he had been shown to have deceived them previously? This is a blow for an organization that really does pride itself on its editorial standards.

CO: But we know that rules are... in this business are broken or bent if they can prove that it's in the public interest. Can’t Martin Bashir make that case here?

JD: It was made very clear that the only exception to the rule about forged documents was in the case of serious crime, where we, the BBC, had evidence that a crime had been committed. In that case, you could present forged documents to try and draw out a crime and try and prove it on camera. That is the only exception to the rule.

CO: The Royal Family, though, they... they came out looking very badly, many of the members of it, in that “Panorama” show. But at the same time, Princess Diana got a message across that she wanted to get across. So how do you think that British society in general will respond to this? So they will say, well, we needed to know that no matter how we got it?

JD: It's really interesting, Carol, I don't know. And I don't know how interested people are. Let's not forget this was a quarter of a century ago. I mean, it was a huge deal. And that's why I talked about me sitting open-mouthed in front of the TV. All the people who are involved in this, really barring Prince Charles, have moved on. I think for... certainly for Prince Charles, it is an unwelcome reminder of the whole thing. He probably wants to get on with his life and have people forget that there was this relationship with the woman who is now his wife and such a catastrophic relationship with Princess Diana.

CO: Jonny, we will leave it there. And I appreciate you joining us. Thank you.

JD: My pleasure, Carol. Thank you.

CO: Good night.

JD: Good night.

CH: Jonny Dymond is the Royal Correspondent for the BBC. He's in London. As we went to air, Princess Diana's son Prince William released a statement: "It is my view that the deceitful way the interview was obtained substantially influenced what my mother said. The interview was a major contribution to making my parents' relationship worse. ... The BBC's failures contributed significantly to her fear, paranoia and isolation that I remember from those final years with her."

[music: the mini-update theme]

Mini-Update Publication Ban Breach

CH: Now, an update on a story we brought you last month. It involved an Ontario woman who was convicted of breaching a publication ban. The woman, whose name we can't share, had launched an appeal -- because the name she was convicted of revealing was her own. The woman had been sexually assaulted by her former spouse. And the judge who convicted him had imposed a publication ban to protect her. When his conviction came down, the woman shared the ruling with some friends and family. The convicted attacker complained that that had violated the ban. So she was arrested and prosecuted, pleaded guilty and fined 2,000 dollars. Well, today her conviction was thrown out by an Ontario Superior Court judge. In the end the Crown agreed there'd been a mistake -- although the mistake they acknowledged involved the woman entering her guilty plea under the wrong section of the Criminal Code.

[music: mini-update theme]

Cooking Cicadas

Guest: Joseph Yoon

CH: You might remember our conversation earlier this month with University of Maryland professor Michael Raupp. Like many entomologists, Mr. Raupp was on the edge of his seat, awaiting the arrival of the Brood 10 cicadas. His description of billions of bulging, red-eyed, winged insects may have left a bad taste in your mouth. But Joseph Yoon's mouth is watering. The New York chef runs "Brooklyn Bugs". He's on a mission to raise awareness of, and appreciation for, edible insects. We reached Mr. Yoon in Brooklyn, New York.

CO: Joseph, if I was to come over to your place for dinner tonight and you wanted to convince me that I should eat cicadas, what dish would you serve?

JOSEPH YOON: Well, I would actually want to ask you first what your favourite dishes are and what kind of flavours you love? And then I would try to incorporate the cicadas into your favourite dish.

CO: OK, do you want... I like anything... I like anything roasted or sautéed.

JY: What about Italian, Asian, American? [CO chuckles] Like, what kind of cuisine do you enjoy?

CO: Mostly Italian.

JY: OK, in that case, I think I got a little starter dish for you…. for us to start off with. [CO chuckles] I would like to sauté some of these cicada nymphs with aromatics, with onions and garlic to start. Add some herbs, maybe some like rosemary, thyme and sage. I would like to add some tomatoes and make, like, just like a nice... I guess it would be kind of like a ragu or bolognese sauce that we can then put on top of our bruschetta and finish with some basil or parsley to give it a nice spring finish.

CO: OK, and now you mentioned the nymphs. So these were... this is the early stage of a cicada, right? Why would you choose that particular part of its development?

JY: Where I've been going in Princeton, I've only been able to collect the nymphs so far. And so on my next visit, I plan on getting a lot of the adults. And they will be so much easier to collect and collect in large volumes as well. Whereas with the nymphs, you have to kind of get on your hands and knees and pick them up off... off the ground.

CO: [chuckling] OK, so later in the season when I come back to your place, if I do, to try [laughing] your... your cicada dishes again. And that's and if, I'm going to remain at that level. So are you going to give me, I don't know, some kind of a salad with cicadas or something?

JY: So what I like to do is pair this, oh, so special magicicada -- that's a species name -- with springtime ingredients. So depending on how soon you come, like right now, earlier today, I ended up sautéing fiddleheads. I made a ramp oil, added some fennel and some chilli peppers because I like it a little spicy, and I added the cicada nymphs, and it's just like a really beautiful spring, a warm spring salad that I finished off with a little bit of citrus, a little lemon. And it's just such a beautiful and perfectly seasonal dish. I also have been experimenting with fermenting and pickling the cicada nymphs as well. So... so that's been really interesting to make a kimchi with the cicadas. So I made a ramp and cicada nymph kimchi. I also made this like really beautiful cauliflower leek and potato cold soup. They're really a beautiful canvas to absorb and take on a lot of different flavour.

CO: But they have, I mean, at the various stages of life, they change, right? I mean, you've got your... the little nymphs, but..., but eventually, they get a kind of a casing around them. So do you have... do they get kind of crunchy after a while?

JY: Yeah, so right now, in the nymph stage, they're very much like a boiled shrimp with the skin on. And I don't know if you've ever tried eating them, but a lot of Asians that I know, we... we just kind of eat the shell as well. And so it's like a very thin layer before you get to the meat. So if you catch it sooner on, then you'll have... you’ll just have more meatiness to your cicada. With the exoskeleton, I kind of think like there's going to be great ways for me to roast it and then to be able to create powders with it. And when you have an insect powder, the possibilities are just endless with what you can do with cicada powder.

CO: You know, it's funny that we can... I think of you mentioned shrimp and so many things that I love to eat. And yet, when I think of eating cicadas, it seems revolting to me. Why do you think that's the case? Why... are we just conditioned? Because some... in some cultures, eating bugs is... is... is a delicacy. It's commonplace. People are used to it. Why do you think we get squeamish about some things and yet accept... accepting of not... not such dissimilar other creatures that we eat?

JY: I really love that you ask that because, you know, eating is such a status symbol. And when you think about the American palate, and you think about eating at like a wedding or fancy events, people often think about beef, filet mignon and lobster and stuff like that. And they think of insects as kind of like, oh, that's like for poor people or the end of the world. But that's like the furthest thing from the truth. Because over two billion people around the world regularly eat insects. And to many people, it is a delicacy and a treat. And so I think a really big thing is that people think in terms of extremes when it comes to eating insects because they think of insects as the thing that they don't want in their apartment. The thing that bites them in the summertime that ruins their gardens. But what I want to do is I try to reimagine and redefine edible insects, something that’s sustainably farmed or harvested for human consumption, something that's nutrient-dense. And with over 2,000 different types of edible insects, think about all the incredibly wildly different flavour profiles, the different textures from crunchy to squishy and everything in between. I just really think that we're missing out on something that can be both sustainable, nutritious and also delicious.

CO: Do you think is not long before we'll all have bags of bugs in our freezers ready to eat?

JY: Well, I think that that's a really big ask of people to buy whole insects and cook with them. And I think that what's more likely is for us to start developing products that will be ready to eat, that's prepared by someone like myself so that people can just go like, man, I really want some of Joseph’s cricket mac and cheese. I can't wait to eat that cicada fried rice, instead of going, ugh, how am I going to cook with these bugs? It's like so challenging! And so I really think that availability will be a really big key to large-scale adoption and acceptance in America.

CO: Well, I hope you have a great gourmet Brood X season, Joseph. And it's great to talk to you. Thank you.

JY: Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate being given the opportunity to share what we're doing. Thank you.

CO: Bye.

JY: Bye-bye.

CH: Joseph Yoon is a chef and the executive director of "Brooklyn Bugs". We reached him in Brooklyn, New York. You can find that interview -- and more of Mr. Yoon's cicada recipes -- on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: indie rock]

Part 2: NC Wrongful Convictions, AB Sextuplet Sheep

NC Wrongful Convictions

Guest: Elliot Abrams

CH: For more than three decades, Henry McCollum and Leon Brown sat behind bars. And for more than three decades, they maintained their innocence. The crime the half-brothers had been convicted of was terrible. And a warning -- the details of this story are disturbing. It started in 1983, when an 11-year-old girl was raped and murdered in Red Springs, North Carolina. Mr. McCollum and Mr. Brown were teenagers at the time, and both were arrested. But in 2014, DNA evidence implicated another man in Sabrina Buie's murder -- and a court vacated their convictions. And now, more than six years later, the men have been awarded 75 million dollars by a jury in a federal civil rights case. Elliot Abrams is one of their lawyers. We reached him in Raleigh.

CO: Mr. Abrams, how are Henry McCollum and Leon Brown... how are they processing the news of this payment?

ELLIOT ABRAMS: I think it's sinking in somewhat slowly. I talked to Henry. I talked to him a couple of times this week. We have a little bit of a fight ahead of us, I think, on the 75 million dollar jury verdict. It'll take us some time to work through getting the state and the insurers to pay the money they've been ordered to pay.

CO: And just to… we'll clarify... we'll talk about the money. The 75 million is for the two brothers together. And... but, at the same time, these men are in their 50s now. This is 1983 we're talking about. What do our listeners need to understand about how these men came to be convicted of this crime back in 1983?

EA: So, basically, what happened was we had a very small town that was a quiet place. There had been no murders in four years. And in late September 1983, an 11-year-old girl went missing. And her body was found in a soybean field. And after three days of getting no leads, the police got a phone call from the parent of a high school student that reported what she said was a rumour that Henry McCollum had something to do with it. After getting this alleged rumour reported to them, they go for a dinner -- all the folks who had been working, all the police officers who had been working on the case go to dinner together. And at some point during the dinner, they decided, let's go pick up Henry McCollum and see if we can shake anything loose from this case. And so they show up at his house at 9:00 p.m., and they take him down to the police station. And Henry says for a long period of time, I don't know anything about this. Henry is 19 years old. His IQ is in the 50s, and he was interrogated from 9:00 p.m. until 2:00 a.m. At 2:00 a.m., the police have obtained a statement that has incredible detail, detail that the psychological evidence indicates someone with his psychological makeup would not be able to report.

CO: And so it wasn't just him. There was... his half-brother was also taken in, and... and by the final jury determination that these two state investigators just coerced confessions out of both of these men, right?

EA: That's right. And there's so many tragedies here. But Henry's mother, at about midnight, decided she needed to go down to the police station to see why Henry had not come home. And she did not feel comfortable leaving her younger son, Leon, at home. So she brought him with her to the police station to try to get Henry. And while she stepped outside, police officers pounced, and they got Leon into a room and interrogated him from 2:00 a.m. until 6:00 a.m. and similarly extracted a confession. So, you know, I think a tremendous amount of credit has to go to all of the lawyers and investigators who have been working on this case over the last three decades to try to show that Henry McCollum and Leon Brown were not the perpetrators.

CO: In fact, the man whose DNA evidence was on the cigarette at the crime scene had... was guilty of a similar crime. This is Roscoe Artis. And so this is… the DNA evidence, once again, is the thing that exonerates these two men. But I just want to ask you about the time they have spent. One of them, Henry McCollum, spent his... almost his entire sentence on death row. What effect did that have on him, that…. that experience?

EA: So it was devastating. For one thing, death row is one of the most isolating places that exists in the world. You have one phone call a year. And so, in particular, for someone like Henry, whose ability to read and write is limited, it's excruciatingly isolate. And then, in addition, you have the fact that while Henry was on death row, 42 people were taken downstairs and executed. And every time one of these other men was executed, Henry believed that his day was coming. It was devastating.

CO: These two men were teenagers when they were arrested, and now they're both in their 50s. And, yes, it's a fair bit of money that they will be able to have at their disposal. But how difficult is it going to be for them to put their lives together after all they've been through?

EA: One of the most uplifting things about working on this case has been to see how resilient both of these men are. They both credit their faith in getting them through this horror. And I think they both always believed that they would be exonerated. Henry has a fiancee and is raising two children. Leon has had a little harder time because he requires around the clock care. But now, he has the means to have private care as opposed to state care, and to take trips and do things that he's been unable to do.

CO: Mr. Abrams, it's a tragic story. I'm glad to hear the two men are getting on with their lives. And I appreciate you talking to us. Thank you.

EA: Absolutely. Thank you for covering it.

CH: Elliot Abrams is one of the attorneys for Henry McCollum and Leon Brown -- half-brothers who were wrongfully convicted of rape and murder by a North Carolina court in 1983.

[music: sombre piano]

MB Big COVID

CH: Today, Manitoba saw its highest daily count of COVID-19 infections. Of 603 new cases, two-thirds are in Winnipeg -- with a test positivity rate of 15.3 per cent. While the figures are worrying, Premier Brian Pallister has a whole other worry on his mind as well: vaccine-hesitant Manitobans. Here's part of what he said today.

SOUNDCLIP

BRIAN PALLISTER: If you haven't chosen to get a vaccine yet, these words are for you. I respect your right to choose. Your body as your body. Your decision is your decision. But you're not alone in the impacts of that decision. So consider that. COVID is evil. It robs your breath, it robs your strength, it robs your freedoms, it can take your life. There are real consequences to getting COVID. And I don't want those consequences to happen to you. So please get vaccinated. You know, we have super sites. We have a pop-up clinics. We have 140 doctors and pharmacists ready to serve your needs. We have a location close to you. And more coming all the time. So please, get vaccinated. Do it for your own reasons. Do it so you can see family and friends. Do it so you can have dinner and a movie. Do it and go to church. Do it so you can travel. Do it so you can help out a friend that's trying to survive in a small business or wants to get started again. Do it to help your child get back to school. [breaking down] Do it so you can never give it to anyone else. This is important. Please get a vaccine. Do it for your own reasons, but do it for others as well.

CH: Manitoba Premier Brian Pallister speaking to reporters today.

[music: sombre]

AB Sextuplet Sheep

Guest: Catherine Skory

CH: An Alberta sheep appropriately named "Big Momma" just grew her family by six. Earlier this month, the ewe gave birth to sextuplets. By one veterinarian's count, the chances of that happening are about one in a million. Catherine Skory is Big Momma's owner. And she gets credit for helping with the births, times six. We reached her at her farm, about 10 minutes outside of High River, Alberta.

CO: Catherine, how is Big Mama doing?

Catherine SKORY: She's doing really well, I think. She’s recuperated fully.

CO: And how are the six babies?

CS: Awesome! So two of them we kept with her because she can't feed all six. So two are her with her and then, yeah, three of them we’re bottle-feeding, and another one was adopted by a mom who lost her babies.

CO: Ohhhh!

CS: Yeah. So that... that's good. Is better for the lamb, right? Because it gets more nutrition that way, and we only have to bottle-feed three now.

CO: [chuckling] And so did you have any indication that Big Mama was going to have six babies?

CS: Well, last year she had four. This year, we knew she was going to also have multiples because she was humongous, but we didn't think it would be more than four.

CO: I guess you don't call her Big Mama for no reason?

CS: [laughing] I know. Yes, that's right. We felt sorry for her. Once you've had a pregnancy of your own, you can just feel for them when you see them. So, you --

CO: [both laughing] Oh no! OK, but you knew there were going to be multiple births, right? When did you start to realize there was going to be six?

CS: Not until she gave birth to number four, and that was the runt, Will. And he was struggling to survive. So we were so busy with him and the first three, making sure they were drinking and up and doing OK. And then, all of a sudden, another one comes out. And we’re like, oh, wow, five! And that one was healthy, too. And then number six came. So we had no idea. We didn't think there was any more left after four. And five of them were like about eight pounds, and the runt was only about four pounds.

CO: [laughing] Good heavens!

CS: [both laughing] I know like they were a good size. Normal size.

CO: She's... she's quite the mom. And what help did you have helping Big Mama?

CS: So yeah, we were right in there with her. And mostly, I mean, we didn't have to pull any of them. They just came out naturally. And then my part was Will, like just keeping him... getting him alive because he actually died at one moment. He... there was a moment where we didn't think he'd make it. He was blue, and he... he died. And I ended up having to give him mouth-to-mouth, so resuscitated him. And then we put him under a heat lamp, but he was still so blue and not doing well, could hardly lift his head. So then I wrapped him in a towel and brought him in the house and warmed him up much quicker that way.

CO: You brought him into your bed?

CS: I did. [chuckling] My husband was already sleeping. He didn't know that I came to bed. I had Will wrapped in a blanket. [chuckling] And he slept right in between us all night. [both chuckling]

CO: Oh my! But you say that you had to give him mouth-to-mouth?

CS: Yeah.

CO: Did... did you know how to do that?

CS: I did. But I don't know how I knew that? I just... it just came to me. And I... I'm not sure I've thought of that, too. How do I know what to do? But I just knew to put my mouth over his mouth and nose, and just took like... just put little puffs of air into him probably about 10 times, I think. And he responded immediately the first time. He just... I saw his nose twitch a little bit. And then I waited, and then I did it again. And I kept doing that until his eyes opened, and we knew he was breathing.

CO: Wow!

CS: Yeah, yeah. It's just almost like I can't explain it. I was like instinct. I just knew what to do somehow.

CO: What will you do with them all?

CS: Well, we raise sheep to sell. We sell them before they’re a year old. A lot of people like to... they enjoy lamb. So that's mostly what we do.

CO: And if you're raising them, you’re... all the love your giving and giving them names, how hard is it to then part with them to sell them for meat?

CS: Well, we only name the orphans, just the ones that... that we've had to feed. And once we name them, it's like I can't sell them. [laughing] I get so emotionally attached to them. So we've kept those because they recognize your voice, too, them, and they think you're their mom. So they cry for you. And if they hear you talking even from the house, they're crying for you.

CO: What are their names?

CS: So the four orphans, the we named is Levi and Ruben, Simian and Will.

CO: [both chuckling] And so do you think... is… is Big Mama going to keep giving birth to all these babies?

CS: I really wonder, like we heard, the world record is eight. Like, I don't know what you call that -- eight ones for a sheep? So, last year was four. This year was six. I wonder if we'll hit a record next year?

CO: Yikes! [both chucklin]

CS: Yeah, I know! I wouldn't want that on her though, if it's…. if it would be... endanger her at all. But, yeah, we're not... this is all being done natural. We haven't used any hormones or anything like that, so.

CO: I understand you have snow today. So how are they enjoying the snow?

CS: Well, they did not like it much when it first started. They all went into their shelters. But when I look outside right now, they're all over the place. Some are in the field. They don't seem fazed by it right now.

CO: And how far are you by the snow? [laughing]

CS: Very! [both laughing] I do not like it. I’m so ready for spring.

CO: Wow, that's crazy! Anyway, the whole story is crazy and wonderful, Catherine. And I appreciate you telling it to us. Thank you.

CS: Well, thank you for your interest.

CO: Take care.

CS: Kay. Bye.

CH: Catherine Skory is the owner of Azure Sky Ranch. We reached her there, just outside of High River, Alberta. And you can see photos of Big Momma and her lambs on Facebook. Just search for "Azure Sky Ranch".

[music: jazz]

Jordan Abel Book

CH: Jordan Abel's new book Nishga is about his roots as a Nisga'a writer, and descendent of residential school survivors. And at the same time, it's about something else entirely. Because for much of his life, Mr. Abel felt up-rooted from that experience. He grew up disconnected from his Indigenous community, and from his own relatives. Raised by his white mother, in an urban centre. He says his upbringing was filled with loneliness, isolation, and confusion. And while many of those feelings endure, Jordan Abel has filled the spaces between them with beautiful writing. Earlier this week, he joined Carol to talk about his most recent work. You can now read more about that interview and Mr. Abel's latest book, Nishga, on our website at: www.cbc.ca/aih. And, to get you in the mood, here's a short excerpt.

SOUNDCLIP

JORDAN ABEL: Going back home will…. will always be something that's... that's a part of me. And I think part of this book is about, you know, figuring out what that... what that means, you know? And for... for a long time, I thought, you know, it meant returning to Gingolx, which is... which is the community that my grandparents are from originally. But none of... none of my family is... is there anymore. And so I think going back home in that… in that sense, you know, in a physical geographical sense, you know, doesn't... doesn't quite make sense anymore. And the... and that the place that I... that I ultimately want to go back to, you know, I still haven't quite figured out what that is? You know, be like a geographical place or a spiritual place. And and finding my way through that, I think, has... has been a challenge, and is the challenge of this book, and I think will continue to be a challenge for me moving forward.

CH: Jordan Abel is a Nisga'a writer and the author of the new book, Nishga. You can read more about Carol's feature conversation with him -- and see images from the book -- on our website at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

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May 20, 2021 Episode Transcript

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