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The Current Transcript for May 20, 2021

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

You can hear America saying that they are going to release 20 million doses, what is 20 million doses, for a continenet with 1.3 billion people? Africa should believe in itself, and be safe for life.

MATT GALLOWAY: While vaccinations surge in Canada, Africa needs shots. The continent is desperate for vaccines to fight covid-19. And with India withholding vaccine exports, that need is becoming even more pressing. In 30 minutes, the case for African scientists to develop and produce their own vaccines. Why that idea is so difficult to get off the ground and why countries like Malawi have been destroying expired doses. Also this morning, Globe and Mail health columnist André Picard on the vaccination vaccination campaign here, a roadmap to reopening Quebec and what has gone wrong in Manitoba. And later.

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Robinson wait. Canadians getting set. Here comes the shot. It's over. One more time with Willams, getting the penalty box.

MG: Well, that was then, this is now and yes, hope springs eternal for the Toronto Maple Leafs in an hour, inside the latest edition of the NHL rivalry between Toronto and Montreal. We begin with a crisis in the shadow of a crisis. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

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Surge in opioid-related deaths last year

Guests: Garth Mullins, Zoe Dodds, Thomas Kerr

MG: Well, while many of us have had our eyes on covid numbers, overdose numbers have been skyrocketing in this country. Manitoba saw 87 percent more opioid overdose deaths last year compared to 219 in B.C. the increase was 74 percent. And a new report for the Ontario Drug Policy Research Network put that jump in that province at 75 percent after the pandemic hit. Garth Mullins used heroin for over a decade. He is now in a methadone programme. He works with the Vancouver area network of drug users. And as the host of the podcast Crackdown Garth. Good morning.

GARTH MULLINS: Hey, Matt, how's it going?

MG: Really glad to have you on the programme when you hear those huge increases in overdose deaths across this country. I mean, what goes through your mind?

GARTH MULLINS: I mean, those numbers are really big, but I think of it in terms of the people that I've lost, you know, the people that I've been really close to that I've known for a lifetime who aren't there anymore. Like my friend Janice from Parkdale, harm reduction worker in Parkdale, died on Sunday morning.

MG: I'm sorry.

GARTH MULLINS: I think of the people. Thanks,

MG: I mean, and when you think of the community in the mood in the community, I mean, again, numbers are numbers, but to your point, people are people. How are people in the community coping with what's going on right now? That's it's a lot of loss.

GARTH MULLINS: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I know myself sometimes I'm coping better, you know, but sometimes it just feels like there's an ocean of grief that you could drown in. And, you know, I know families across the country that are suffering from lost kids and parents and workplaces, churches, community centres, families, everywhere, everywhere has drug users. And everyone is experiencing that loss right now.

MG: What do you think, we'll get into this deeper over the course of the conversation, but what do you think is different now than perhaps was different a couple of years ago?

GARTH MULLINS: I've watched this get worse my whole life as the illicit drug supply gets kind of more contaminated and the drugs get more potent, just like alcohol prohibition. You know, before alcohol prohibition, people drank beer and then it was moonshine because you got to have something that's lower volume and higher kick to outfox the cops. So I just been seeing it getting worse for a very long time. But, yeah, the pandemic has really notched it up. You know, the pandemic has forced closures of some harm reduction places, but also so have the politicians in some provinces, you know, either been openly hostile to harm reduction like, you know, in Ontario and Alberta or been really dragging their feet about it, like in British Columbia where I am. So, yeah, politics, pandemic of those have made it worse.

MG: Stay with us. I want to bring somebody else into this conversation. Zoe Dodd is a harm reduction worker and organiser with the Toronto Overdose Prevention Society. So he. Good morning to you.

ZOE DODD: Good morning, Matt.

MG: How does what Garth has just been describing fit into what you see in the work that you do every day?

ZOE DODD: I mean, it translates to people and I also have lost a lot of people, I mean, we lost three harm reduction workers in a week and a half in the city. And, you know, that doesn't include also the people we work with and our friends. I mean, the workers there are our friends. And, you know, it's been devastating. We had a 75 percent increase, but prior to the pandemic starting, you know, months prior, was a 79 percent increase in overdose deaths in the province and eight people are now dying a day. And you know, the response to the overdose crisis ground to a halt when Ford took office in 2018.

MG: The report from Ontario found that a large number of people were overdosing in these shelter hotels where they were put during the pandemic. What's going on there?

ZOE DODD: They didn't implement overdose death prevention strategies that they should have. They also moved people to shelters hotels that are far away from their support, their communities and their friends. You know, when you use drugs, you have routines and people you are used people were using and they use supervised consumption sites in downtown core as part of those routines. People were then moved to places that were like an hour and a half away from those sites. And then at the shelter hotels, they have not replicated the kinds of services that people who use drugs need. I mean, we know the solutions, but those were not implemented. There's been some implementation now, but only at a few sites. And, you know, people there's also like a you know, staff that are not properly trained. People are feeling isolated, they're feeling more despair. And, you know, they've lost their own community. Like there's people I work with who lost their partners in this last year. Like how do you cope with that grief and the obliteration of people around you?

MG: How do you cope with that loss? I mean, again, this is personal. These are these are people that you know and people that you love and that you work with.

ZOE DODD: ZD: Well, you know, Matt, I've been on your show for many years. And in 2017, Metro Morning named as Torontonians of the Year. And one of the people that was named Torontonians the year at the time was Todd. He died and. You know, and since him, there's been more people that organised with this also died. I had to go off work for three months during the pandemic because I was so traumatised that one day I woke up and I didn't know where I was. I just the overwhelming nature of the grief and the just complete abandonment of people to have to respond to this crisis as well as covid and the housing disaster, you know, really took a toll on me personally. And just there's no time to heal because then somebody else, you know, dies and no one's listening to us. We're just like in these trenches screaming, yelling for many years now. And that kind of state neglect and structural violence, it just impacts you so negatively. It's been hard.

MG: I want to talk more about what can be done. The numbers come out and you hope that action, you know, would be spurred by those numbers. We'll get to that in a moment. But let me bring one more voice into this discussion. Thomas Kerr, professor in the Department of Medicine at UBC. He's a senior scientist at the B.C. Centres on Substance Use. Thomas, good morning to you.

THOMAS KERR: Good morning.

MG: When you listen to Zoey and Garth talk about what they have seen firsthand, how reflective is that of what's been going on across this country over the last 12 months, 14 months in the pandemic?

THOMAS KERR: Well, I think what we know is that overdose has increased in all regions across the country since COVID. B.C. had been seeing a decrease in fatal overdoses at the end of 2019, early 2020, but now rates are higher than ever. B.C., Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba are all similarly reporting that 2020 was the worst year on record for overdose deaths. And it's very, very frustrating. We just have not seen the same sort of depth of response to covid in the case of the overdose crisis.

MG: What are the I mean, and I know Zoe and Garth have both hinted at some of the specific things. From your perspective, what is different about this year? I mean, why in a pandemic where so much has changed, have has this community been hit so hard?

THOMAS KERR: Well, I think Garth touched on it and I think Zoe touched on it. We know that the drug supply has become increasingly contaminated. There are more contaminants. The contaminants are stronger. There's been a large introduction of benzodiazepines into the drug supply, which has really complicated the overdose response as well. So really, it's a terrible, challenging situation. COVID has played it played a role in terms of the isolation. But also, as Zoe pointed out, the hostility on the part of some of our political leaders to the obvious solutions is really tough to take.

MG: When you hear about a toxic drug supply. People often refer to fentanyl or carfentanil. What's different with benzodiazepines?

THOMAS KERR: Well, we're seeing a lot of Taslim a benzodiazepine contaminant in the drug supply now. This really complicates things. We know that between the period of around November to April, about 24 percent of overdoses involve benzos, while 50 percent were of overdose deaths involved benzo's in February 20 21. And our standard sort of medical response to overdoses, the administration and naloxone is not helpful in the case of a benzodiazepine overdose. So it's just another challenge. It's an increasingly contaminated drug supply. And so we really need to take bold action at this time to really stem the tide of death.

MG: Garth, you have seen this firsthand in terms of a toxic drug supply and benzodiazepines in particular. What happened?

GARTH MULLINS: This was before the pandemic that I overdosed on that combination myself, and I can't remember much of the surrounding days, but both of those drugs working together, opioids and benzos, they kind of have a synergistic effect and they can really, really knock you out. And I've also found a close friend of mine in overdose on that same combination. I thought she was dead. I didn't understand what was happening at first. You know, we've all gotten used to what an overdose looks like on just opioids, but, you know, the drug supply never stand still. It's always getting more and more contaminated. So with Benzo's in there, people are unconscious for hours after you reverse the overdose part, you know, reverse the opioid part of the overdose, the benzo is just keep there and keep in there. You got to kind of watch them for the oxygen level and their breathing. And it's quite terrifying.

MG: It sounds it. I mean, when you speak with people, the folk that you work with in Vancouver, I mean, what do they tell you about the level of toxicity on the streets and the difficulty in finding a safer supply?

GARTH MULLINS: I mean, we did an action here, you know, as a drug user, organisations got together and we sourced, you know, rock, meth and heroin or opioids. And we ran them through a mass spectrometer to see the purity. And they were distributed to people as an example of what safe supply could be like if it wasn't so difficult. Now, these weren't very large quantities and it was sort of symbolic. But the effort to try and find uncontaminated versions of all those drugs, the people who were involved in sourcing them, it took them quite a lot of work. And these are well-connected people who are veteran drug users, been around for a long time. And even they're having trouble finding something that they could feel good about supplying to a small group of people as a demonstration. And, you know, while that's illegal, it is the same kind of civil disobedience that got us safe injection sites and needle distribution to begin with. But it did show that there's quite a challenge in sourcing it.

MG: So from your perspective, I mean, what would a safe supply mean for the work that you're doing and the scale of this overdose crisis?

ZOE DODD: It would mean everything. We can't, we can't continue to just be reversing overdoses. I mean, people are reversing thousands of overdoses a year in the supervised consumption services. It's you know, it takes a toll on people's bodies and their brain to be overdosing like this. Like I mean, this could really change everything. I mean, we could give people the support that they need and we could save people's lives.

MG: Why do you think there's still resistance to this? Because you can imagine that there are a number of people and it's not just politicians, but there are a number of people who say who have a reaction, still a visceral reaction to the idea of a safer supply of drugs. Why do you think that's the case still in 2021, given the numbers that we've been talking about?

ZOE DODD: I mean, I wish they had such a strong reaction to people dying. You know, that that to me is just like unconscionable that we can just allow thousands of people to die and we know what the solutions are. You know, the drug war prohibition has been that at some point we have to say enough is enough. We have to implement the solutions that we know are going to work. And maybe it's hard for some people to swallow. But the people who are using drugs, the families and friends of those people, they have more of a voice in this than those who have no interest around drug policy and drug use, in my opinion. And, you know, we've had everything ground to a halt. You know, we had a report come out yesterday. We don't even get a press conference from the minister of health, the minister of addiction, the premier or the chief coroner. We're not even warranted that. You know, we live in a province that doesn't even want to talk about it. The city didn't even acknowledge it in a press conference. And they don't put forward solutions. Everyone shifts blame while people die.

MG: Thomas Kerr, you said that we need bold action. You think of the pandemic. And I mean, there was really bold action that was taken by governments at all levels. Why do you think we see the same response when it comes to opioid deaths?

THOMAS KERR: TK: I mean, you're right at what covid has demonstrated is that science policy and data can be rapidly mobilised. You know, it was March 23, 2020, 12 days after the World Health Organisation declared covid-19 global pandemic. The federal government announced two hundred and seventy five million in funding for coronavirus research and countermeasures. And over 70 clinical trials for drugs and vaccines have since been authorised. And epidemiological data is released every day. You know, I would be much happier if I woke up tomorrow and saw our provincial health minister and the chief medical health officer giving daily updates on the number of people who had an overdose, who were hospitalised and died. We need that kind of action. But the problem is, is I think, you know, we've criminalized drug use and people who use drugs for so long. We're just we're having a very hard time shaking that. I think future generations will look down upon us for the lack of action taken during this time. But it's we spent a lot of time punishing people and we're having a hard time realizing that people have an essential right to health. Canada has a universal health-care system and Canadians do not have universal access to good health.

MG: So we thought we got a statement from the federal minister of health, Patty Hajdu's office, which read, in part, We are committed to working on options guided by the health needs of people who use substances. What do you want from the federal government?

ZOE DODD: I want to believe that they're working with people who use substances because they have a back door meeting with Vancouver officials and police to come up with their decriminalisation model that cuts out people who use drugs. And they also could be funding the supervised injection site in Saskatchewan who had to fundraise money. They could step in where things have ground to a halt, like in the province of Ontario and help us. I do not believe that the federal government has done enough for the f whole of the country because there are hostile provinces like in Alberta, where they're closing supervised injection sites where the federal government could step in and they haven't. So, no, I don't think that they're working with people use drugs. They throw peanuts at the response it's not new money that they throw into the overdose crisis and they don't act like it's an emergency. We are in an emergency. We've been in it for a decade.

MG: Do you think these numbers that are so alarming will spur the action that you're calling for?

ZOE DODD: No, I don't. No, I don't I don't think it will spur any action from any level of government. I don't.

MG: Why?

ZOE DODD: Where has it been with these be known that the numbers have been rising, we've a report comes out, but we already had the numbers like months ago, knowing that almost 2500 people. Have died. That's just from opiate overdose, that doesn't even include stimulant deaths, which we know is almost another thousand. So I don't think so because we would be working together, we would have co-ordinated tables, we would be working caught. We wouldn't be throwing cups of water at the largest raging fire. That's not what's happening. It is not going to happen. I don't I, I don't see it happening. They have no interest in actually implementing policies that won't kill people. They've had years to implement decriminalisation, but they just want to keep ramping up the drug war. It's not working. I mean, it's working for them, but it's not working for us.

MATT GALLOWAY: Garth Mullins, we just have just under a minute left. Do you think that this is the moment that you'll see change?

GARTH MULLINS: Not unless we organize. And this is how history changes for every marginalized group of people. History doesn't change because the right leader gets the right document on the table, with the right evidence, the right study or enough pictures of dead kids. History changes when we raise the political costs on the politicians of doing nothing. So it's really a challenge to drug users and drug user activists and allies to get better organized, to put more pressure, to twist the arms more, and to force the politicians into some kind of action and out of the sort of cowardly status that they are in.

MG: And so could that be the moment then, that if it's not through the politicians, that the organisers and as you say, allies are so alarmed by these numbers that they step up and do something?

GARTH MULLINS: Yeah, I mean, we're fighting as hard as we can, right. But we're also being disorganised by the material circumstances of trying to survive waves of destruction. But I entirely agree with Zoe that I don't expect numbers on their own to convince leaders because we've just had years and years and years of reports like this and they don't do anything.

MG: I really appreciate speaking with all of you about the work that you're doing and the the faces behind these numbers. Thank you very much. Thanks a lot, Thomas Kerr, professor of the Department of Medicine at UBC, senior scientist in the BC, Centres on Substance Use. Zoe Dodd is harm reduction worker and organiser with the Toronto Overdose Prevention Society. Garth Mullins is the host of the podcast Crackdown. The CBC News is next. And then.

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What has happened in India is, I think, a red flag for the whole world. It is a global village. None of us is safe until all of us are safe.

MG: We'll head to Africa and talk about the knock on effects of the covid situation in India as vaccination imports on the continent dry up. That's coming in six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

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Africa facing shortage of COVID-19 vaccines

Guests: Dr. Githinji Gitahi, Dr. Christian Happi

MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, what colour is your hockey sweater? Is it blue or red? Do you have a shrine of empty beer bottles in your house to Keyon or LeFleur? One of the great hockey rivalries in hi. Story and one of the great rivalries in sports history is about to be reborn in the midst of this pandemic. Habs versus Leafs in a little over 30 minutes. But first, fascinating Africa. Africa is quickly running out of covid vaccines, the continent's largest supplier, India, has stopped all vaccine exports to deal with its own covid emergency. And medical professionals are warning that without shots in arms, mutation's and fresh outbreaks could create a crisis for the continent. On top of that, in some countries, dealing with the doses they already have is no simple task. Malawi has already had to destroy almost 20000 doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine because they expired. Here is that country's health secretary, Charles Mwansambo.

This destruction is regrettable. We didn't want to throw away even a single vial, but because the vaccines expired. We couldn't keep them in your system.

MG: Dr. Githinji Gitahi is the global CEO of Amref Health Africa and a board member of the Africa Centres for Disease Control and Prevention. He is in Nairobi, Kenya. Doctor, hello.

DR. GITHINJI GITAHI: Hello, how are you?

MG: I'm well, thank you for joining us. I want to begin in Malawi. What do you make of the fact that that country had to destroy twenty thousand doses of this vaccine, a vaccine that could have saved lives? South Sudan had to destroy almost 60000 doses. What do you make of that?

DR. GITHINJI GITAHI: Now, what I'm convinced is that, No. one, is that a lot of these doses that we're telling are being destroyed are the ones that were rerouted from South Africa back to African Union, of course, by the time they landed in these countries, the short expiry to begin with. But then it also brings up a bigger question around the rate of absorption and the capacity to provide the vaccine to the people, which speaks to, number one, the capacity of government to vaccinate, to reach the last mile where the vaccines are needed. And also the element of hesitancy that it's not rejection, but hesitancy. Those are the things that come out of this. And therefore, we need to deal with a holistic vaccination approach, not just access to vaccine.

MG: What sort of capacity is there on the continent to ensure that vaccines that are delivered are actually given out before they expire?

DR. GITHINJI GITAHI: Number one is that Africa as a continent has been vaccinating children and also adolescent girls for many, many years. So vaccination capacity and infrastructure exists and that [unintelligible] capacity is the one that's also adequate for specifically AstraZeneca. So the capacity exists. The challenges that in many cases we find that that capacity needs to be translated into action through outreach programmes, campaigns, relevant vaccines rather than the vaccine is the common finding because a lot of the people do not have the means to go to the facilities. Most of the other vaccines have been delivered in existing alongside maternal health programmes, where actually the mother is going for [unintelligible] then go through the child. This is a totally different ballgame. It needs a different approach.

MG: If that last mile is not in place, that last mile delivery system is not in place. Do you worry that there are concerns about sending more vaccines if the infrastructure isn't there to support the role that?

DR. GITHINJI GITAHI: The last mile is the [unintelligible]. We actually do deliver vaccines to children through Cool Boxes, the nurses go out. The challenges that those out last mile reach are supported by partners in many countries. The vaccines come along with the financial resources to do that last mile delivery through cool boxes, motorbikes going up the village. The covid vaccine doesn't have that support, it's just vaccine. And the government therefore have to look for partners or their own money to administer that last mile delivery, that's where the challenges, the infrastructure exists. The financial resources to support the outreach are the ones that are missing in many of the countries.

MG: You're in Kenya. How has that nation fared over the course of the pandemic?

DR. GITHINJI GITAHI: Well, Kenya has done fairly well in terms of the public health response. The vaccines arrived in Kenya as an additional public health response, and Kenya have given more than almost 90 per cent of the vaccines they received. And now Kenya is looking to see how do we access the second dose for the people we give the first dose. But in terms of the response has been good. Kenya has done fairly well. The government is old enough to put the measures when they need to be done. And as I said, the public has been a bit disconnected because of government direction of policy, without the engagement of the general communities and public through the local leaders. That has been a bit of a gap.

MG: If you take a look at the vaccine rollout, as you mentioned, you're trying to figure out how to get the vaccines for those second doses. How important is India in the fight against the pandemic? And the vaccines that would come from India?

DR. GITHINJI GITAHI: Extremely important, because you will remember that India is actually also the world's biggest manufacturer for the vaccines that come to Africa. It is actually the one that delivers the vaccines to GAVI for African countries. So when India locked down that capacity of huge maybe a billion dollars a year is removed from the equation and therefore the world has to build a new capacity to supply that demand and that is going to take time. So India is critical, completely critical to continuity of vaccination of covid vaccination in Africa.

MG: How concerned are you that given the situation in India right now, that country is not expected to ship out any new vaccines until perhaps the end of the year? So how concerned are you that the. Why change for the continent could be severely disrupted?

DR. GITHINJI GITAHI: I am very concerned, obviously, because no one is the biggest vaccine that is actually being part of the backbone of covid vaccination in Africa has been AstraZeneca one, because it is can be provided under existing infrastructure, but without requiring extreme cold chains. So, of course, the disruption of AstraZeneca supply chain means that it will also present barriers and challenges to Africa's covid vaccination plans. So this is a major concern. Also, the concern that we are going to lose track of people, people we promised a second dose and now asking where the second dose you promised? Therefore, if I come to the second dose, why should I trust the entire public vaccination? So it is actually eroding the trust between the system and the people and also the fact that these delays are going to end up with lost lives, health workers, people who are highly vulnerable and also present a multiplication of ground for new variants.

MG: How do you tackle that trust deficit? I mean, again, you were referencing it earlier, the issue of vaccine hesitancy. If people are concerned about the rollout of the programme broadly, but also concerned that they were promised a second dose and they can't get that second dose. How do you go about addressing that trust issue?

DR. GITHINJI GITAHI: The trust issue can only be addressed, not by government, it can only be addressed by engaging communities and getting community health workers, engaging religious leaders, local leaders and also trusted sources of information. You know, medical specialists who the people trust, health workers. You have to address that actively, not passively. And you have to involve and go down and involve the people who are trusted by the communities. That's the only way to address it. And then to provide information continuously and to make reference to trusted sources like WHO, Africa CDC. And you are all regulatory agencies and our own specialised and trusted sources.

MG: The Global Vaccine Rollout Programme. COVAX was meant to address a number of the issues that you have raised. How has it worked? Broadly, I mean, not just in Kenya, but across the continent.

DR. GITHINJI GITAHI: That has been a gap. I must I must say that because of the challenges of the global COVAX facility that they didn't anticipate in terms of delays in delivery of the second doses, the COVAX facility has been shy to actually issue policy guidelines for countries. The issue around the delay of the second is no countries issue, but countries have been left on their own to deal with their citizens. And whose responsibility is it and who should take responsibility for the delay of the second dose? It shouldn't be country by country. The COVAX facility and the WHO should actually issue communication to countries and take responsibility because it's not countries own making that this second is delayed. It's a global and continental issue.

MG: So what should that look like? I mean, you've talked about the need for greater support on the ground. What else should COVAX be doing?

DR. GITHINJI GITAHI: COVAX should actually be communicating and saying this is not going to come. So that and we are going to believe this until this time and these are the repercussions of that. There are studies, obviously, that show that 12 weeks, 16 weeks, and also there are studies that show that the single dose is effective to up to 70 percent effectiveness, even if you don't have a booster. Now, that communication must not be left to the country to look like it's trying to lie to its people, saying all they're doing now is not eight weeks, it's 12, oh now is 16. There should be a global communication strategy for these delays that countries then release to their people. And they will clearly see this is not our government. This is an international position right now. Every country gives whatever they think it's their position that to them, therefore, there needs to be a global communication strategy. A risk management strategy needs to come from COVAX.

MG: COVAX also need to look elsewhere for its vaccines. If India is going to be put to the side for a moment because it's dealing with its own crisis, does COVAX need to look elsewhere?

DR. GITHINJI GITAHI: COVAX has been looking elsewhere. We know that, of course, there is a manufacturing of this particular AstraZeneca vaccine in South Korea and in other places, and it needs to look at how do you accelerate with the money that COVAX getting of that should be reserved for developing, scaling up and factoring by knowledge transfer. But also it's also dependent on AstraZeneca, the research and development company itself, to be able to knowledge transfer, knowledge share with other manufacturers other than SII, which is why the call to actually list the property rights is really critical because it also gives cover to room to manoeuvre and talk to different manufacturers while the intellectual property rights are [unintelligible] lifted.

MG: And perhaps manufacture those vaccines on the continent itself.

DR. GITHINJI GITAHI: The continent is considering manufacturing and we have actually Africa CDC organised a global meeting on manufacturing of vaccines. But it turns out knowledge is one thing, a building capacity to actually culture the viruses, develop the vaccine and actually finish the production is going to take several years. This is not something that's going to be done in six months or a year. So that's the plan is there but it's going to take time.

MG: Doctor, it's great to speak with you about this, and I wish you the best of luck in the work that you're doing. Thank you.

DR. GITHINJI GITAHI: Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.

MG: Dr. Githinji Gitahi Cattai is the global CEO of AMREF Health Africa and a board member of the African CDC. He was in Nairobi, Kenya. Well, as we heard, some scientists in Africa say the key to defeating the virus on the continent is for African countries to get in the driver's seat and develop their own vaccines. Dr. Christian Happi is a molecular biologist and geneticist in Nigeria. He's been working on developing a covid vaccine for close to a year. Doctor, good morning to you.

DR. CHRISTIAN HAPPI: Good morning.

MG: Tell me about the vaccine that you're working on.

DR. CHRISTIAN HAPPI: Well, it is on our new vaccine, just like the ones that are out there, you know, developed by modern or Pfizer or AstraZeneca vaccine. And it is a vaccine that just took advantage of the work that we've been doing before to develop a trivalent vaccine against a disease that is very prevalent in West Africa, Lassa fever, Ebola and monkeypox. And we're moving down to clinical trials, but we are at a stage where we needed to move to clinical trials. And unfortunately, we don't have the resources to move it forward.

MG: You don't have the resources to move it forward into clinical trials.

DR. CHRISTIAN HAPPI: Yes.

MG: Why don't you have those resources?

DR. CHRISTIAN HAPPI: Basically, because those that are supposed to funding the government and then probably those that are interested in vaccine do not see that faith in funding these vaccines.

MG: Can you help me understand that? Why in the midst of a crisis would, for example, the Nigerian government not see what you are doing in developing a vaccine for covid-19 as a priority?

DR. CHRISTIAN HAPPI: It's typical of African governments. We are used to receive and receive for free from other people or buy. So I think in the process there's a lot that goes on under the bridge. So I think it's basically the fact that Africa probably, Africans lack confidence in what they can do and do what they can achieve. That is obvious through this pandemic. It is very clear that Africa is very vulnerable under this pandemic, leave us very vulnerable and now that India has a bigger problem than Africa. So I think it leaves us in a situation where we're really in limbo. And that really, I think should be resounding message to African countries that we should be investing in developing vaccines and I mean not only against covid, but against all the infectious disease that are in Africa.

MG: I mean, you mentioned India. There are about 140 million vaccines sitting in India that were meant to make their way to the continent this month and millions more that won't get to Africa next month because of the crisis in India itself. What does that tell you about the urgency of developing a vaccine like the one that you're working on?

DR. CHRISTIAN HAPPI: I mean, it's clear that if Africans listened, and have taken the right decision, we shouldn't be we shouldn't have been in the situation where we are now. If they made the necessary investment right from last year when we came up with this vaccine candidate, I'm sure by now would have actually pushed through the clinical trials and have a product that we could have actually both set off and then we should be using, you know, to take over an African population. I think it's pathetic, to say the least, that a continent of more than 1.3 billion people really lacked a single vaccine manufacturing plant that could actually provide a continent with the necessary vaccine. And I think if there's anything, again, to learn from Africa is actually that Africa should be in itself and be self-reliant.

MG: Why isn't that belief there? I mean, to your point, there are brilliant minds on the continent, yourself included, who could be deeply involved in helping to develop these vaccines. Why isn't that belief there?

DR. CHRISTIAN HAPPI: I mean, this definitely is a combination of many factors. And into one of the major factors is this stems from the colonial mentality. And the colonial past of Africa. Africans have been told times without number, through colonial time and through the education system that they are good for nothing, that nothing good can come from Africa. And it has become like a believe on the continent that you can't do anything. And I think this is where we find ourselves. Unfortunately, the African leadership fails to see that, you know, right now African diaspora have enough resources and they have enough brainpower in order to move a vaccine for Africa [unintelligible]. If you go and check with all of this company that approved this vaccine, go and look very well, you're going to see some very brilliant Africans that are doing the work behind the scenes. And it's very shameful that at this point, Africa does not realise the potential that it has and does not see that instead of being at the receiving end, Africa should actually be the one giving a solution and providing a solution to the world because we are endowed, not only with mineral resources, but we also are endowed with very powerful biodiversity among which the viruses and then the pathogen.

MG: And so it's not within the mindset of the scientists and the physicians. It's within the mindset of government officials that that colonial mentality still exists.

DR. CHRISTIAN HAPPI: Absolutely. I think that's where that's where the bottleneck is. Apart from that, he's also hold things where I mean, I'm sure people involved in procurement, they are definitely against local manufacturing because probably within those transactions, you know, there probably are a lot of self interests that are probably lost if they ever I mean, authorise local manufacturer.

MG: Self interests, meaning that somebody might be skimming something off the top?

DR. CHRISTIAN HAPPI: That's possible. Because, I mean, what is the explanation? How can you explain that 54 countries cannot come together and agree to actually create at least one manufacturing plant, no matter how small that is going to be? But that is one thing. And then the second thing, I mean, the second problem to Africa, even if we were manufacturing a vaccine, the colonial powers that Africa inherited and actually reinforce the fact that you don't have movement of goods and people and even the brains on the on the continent, if you cannot move a banana from one country to the other, I'm wonder what it is vaccine that you were moving from one country to the other. I think Africa should break down those silos and break down those colonial barriers and immigration and customs barriers that we receive and allow the brains and the knowledge to circulate on the continent so that these people who are having the interests of this continent, I've heard should be able to come together and find the necessary solutions to the problems, especially the problems that are plaguing Africa.

MG: I've heard that it's easier for some scientists to move and collaborate to Europe, for example, than to collaborate across borders within the continent. Is that the case?

DR. CHRISTIAN HAPPI: That is absolutely the case. And that's the reason why Africa will find it difficult to move is actually much more easier to go from Africa to Europe or America generally than it is to go from one Africa to the other ones that the immigration rules and barriers are such that it takes three weeks for an African to go to get a visa to get to another country. Well, it's barely 48 hours to get a visa to go to the US or to any European country. That is the thing that baffles so many of us. And I wonder for how long you know, this can go on and if this system, you know, this continent can ever take off.

MG: And has this as this directly affected you, I mean, have you experienced that sort of roadblock beyond this this vaccine?

DR. CHRISTIAN HAPPI: I've experienced that a whole lot. You know, how do you move from here, for instance, to a country like Kenya and share knowledge, you know, when I mean, I'm being told by the Kenyan authorities, for instance, that I require three weeks to obtain a visa to enter Kenya. A busy person like me cannot allow my passport to be out there for three weeks because that's not really practical. You know, who loses, I think is Kenya. I mean, Kenya, is the one losing, not me. And then interestingly, I can jump in the next plane after applying to the U.S. embassy in 48 hours. And I find myself in Boston, in Washington, sharing the same knowledge that I could have been, I mean, in some way in Africa sharing.

MG: And so if you're looking at developing a robust health care system, you look at the resources that you have there on the continent and figure out how to use those resources to develop that system?

DR. CHRISTIAN HAPPI: If there's anything to go by, you can see that covid has actually shown us that, you know, there is resilience of a health care system is not necessarily how much money you have. Oh, how about how robust your health system is. We saw America, we saw Europe, and we see all these countries struggling despite all the resources, you know, with covid. Africa, definitely with very little resources and in a heck of a system that is very stretched, has been able to manage better. So it's clear that it's not necessarily the resources, it's also your experience, and it is also the way that you handle a situation like epidemic and pandemic. So Africa should learn from it and see, that is not necessarily about having all of those heavy infrastructure that you can manage things like covid or the infectious diseases better. I think we need to think about leveraging our strength. How do we manage it? We manage it better because we understand the diseases better. So I think we can leverage the strength in order to make I mean, develop a healthcare system that is more resilient and then show the world how to handle this kind of disease or epidemic or pandemics.

MG: If there was a vaccine that was developed on the continent, how do you think that would impact vaccine hesitancy across Africa?

DR. CHRISTIAN HAPPI: It is obvious that if an African vaccine was developed today, vaccine hesitancy would almost fizzle out. The reason is simple. Throughout this pandemic, we had, you know, to the media and then to European televisions how some scientists in Europe were discussing taking some molecules in Africa and try them on Africans because Africans are guinea pig. So African had these and then they lost faith and trust in all of those people. Also remember that through the process of colonisation and colonisation, Africa bear the brunt of many clinical trials that were absolutely fraudulent. So these things have not really disappeared in the mind of people in Africa. And then as such, it is critical to realise that if a vaccine was developed in Africa, people would definitely see that it was developed with the interest of Africa heart, develop by Africans that we really will not be turned at people and as such, you know, they'll be more amenable to accept those vaccines.

MG: And in the midst of this, I mean, the crisis continues. And, you know, in countries like Malawi, Malawi burn something like 20,000 expired doses of the. Zeneca vaccine, despite the fact that the vaccine is desperately needed. How do you understand that?

DR. CHRISTIAN HAPPI: Of course, Malawi burnt the vaccine because the vaccine were expired and then simply because the country did not believe, I mean, initially in the disease and then eventually the vaccines. So I think vaccine hesitancy is something that Africans will have to deal with. But then I think that if you had an African led solution, Africans will believe in the solution because they have seen a lot in the past and then they feel that is not a trick matter hoos. That's what people feel. As a scientist, I don't believe in that. I can tell you. But unfortunately, you know, we would like the people on the continent to actually convince people. And one of the things that could have actually made things better would have been a situation whereby the Africans could have encouraged to look a local manufacturing even of the same vaccine, even if manufacturer in countries or on the continent would have been more acceptable than being rejected.

MG: Given all of this, I mean, how much pressure are you under to get your vaccine through trials and into the arms of people on the continent?

DR. CHRISTIAN HAPPI: There's been a lot of pressure, but unfortunately, I think I've done what I can. That's an individual as a very patriotic African, as I've done what I could use my brain, use all the brainpower that I have with colleagues. I mean, we've made the solution available. If the governments in Africa fail to take this opportunity and then fail to support it, then I think I as a person have done what I could. And in the responsibilities there, the ball is in their court.

MG: How long do you think just finally it will take to get the continent fully immunised? I mean, there have been great strides made in many countries around the world, and many countries find themselves well behind the ball in that race. So how long do you think it'll take to get Africans fully immunised?

DR. CHRISTIAN HAPPI: I don't think anybody knows. Imagine either scenario in India continues for for a year or so, which means Africa went for a long, long, long time. I think nobody can say it today how long did you take Africa? Because we are fully, absolutely dependent. You can hear America saying that they are going to release 20 million doses. What is 20 million doses for a continent of 1.3 billion people. So it is clear that we don't know what the trajectory is going to be in the next few months. And unfortunately, we find ourselves at the mercy of a country that is actually embroiled in a lot of trouble. I mean, which is India. Unfortunately, Africa has no alternative because they refused and refused to invest where it is supposed to invest or invest where their [unintelligible]. And then we should accept our fate and agree that we will [unintelligible] one more once more and then hope that next time we will do better.

MG: Doctor, it's good to speak about the work that you're doing in the story that surrounds it. Thank you very much and good luck.

DR. CHRISTIAN HAPPI: Thank you.

MG: Doctor Christian Happi is the director of the African Centre of Excellence for Genomics of Infectious Diseases. He is in Nigeria. Well, coming up after your regional update.

SOUNDCLIP

It's always nice to win the cup outside of Montreal. The best places to win it is right here in Toronto.

MG: The days when hockey teams could rib each other about which Canadian city a Canadian team was winning the Stanley Cup in, if you are a Leafs fan, you might be still mad about that dig made by Maurice Richard in 1960. And if you are well, stick around. Leafs and Habs coming up in about 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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André Picard on COVID-19 situation across Canada; Montreal Canadiens and Toronto Maple Leafs reignite rivalry in NLH playoffs

Guests: Andre Picard, Dave Stubbs

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

Good news, we're exceeding our goals with the vaccination campaign. Quebecers of all generation are fulfilling their duty. Thanks to your efforts, we can now announce a reopening plan.

MG: It was all smiles this week for Quebec's premier as he presented the province's plan for a gradual pandemic reopening. Ontario is making its reopening plans known this afternoon. Meanwhile, in Manitoba, the situation is so serious that patients there are being moved to Ontario for critical care, even as the province begins second vaccine dose appointments. For more on this and more, we're joined once again by André Picard, Globe and Mail health columnist. André, good morning.

ANDRE PICARD: Good morning.

MG: Let's start in Quebec reopening plan, the first sign really of hope for the end of this pandemic there. What do you make of the plan such as it is?

ANDRE PICARD: Yeah, a real sense of exhilaration. And I think the way Quebec has d one it is the way to go. They've made the lead of some clear dates. Here's what's going to happen when. And it's also coupled with this warning. If you go nuts, you know, we told you can have small parties. If you have huge parties, we're going to crack down again. So it's a mixture of here's some hope. But this warning that be careful, this isn't a one way street. If you're not careful, what do you

MG: think went well for Quebec when it came to this third wave? Because it seemed to dodge the wave in many ways that other provinces did.

ANDRE PICARD: Quebec was just it's a pretty simple explanation. They were very strict. You know, there's still a curfew in Quebec. It's going to lift on May 28. People are counting down the days, but it's been a curfew in place for several months and it's been very strict. And the rules there are tougher than anywhere else in Canada. And it's not surprising they've had good results.

MG: So do you think I mean, given that, Legault says that, you know, you have to show restraint, don't have the wild party of a small party, do you think people will be able - it's spring - will people be able to move slowly?

ANDRE PICARD: I think that's the big question. You know, people always spring in Montreal is something else most of the time. And I think with a year of pent up frustration, it risks having some big, big crowds. You know, we saw that in places like Barcelona after a big, long lockdown, tens of thousands of people poured into the streets. Now, the good news is nothing really bad happened there. Outside is quite safe. So if people don't start having big parties inside, could probably tolerate a few celebrations outside. But, you know, the politicians will be asking people, but it probably won't be the end of the world.

MG: How important is it just finally on this to offer people some degree of hope? I mean, people are watching what's happening in the United States. New York City saying it's reopening. Other states saying, you know, once we get to a certain point, you don't need to wear a mask. Normal life is coming back. So how important is it, given everything that we've been through to offer people hope?

ANDRE PICARD: Oh, it's absolutely essential. You know, I've said all along that if you had these rules and people follow them, they have to be rewarded and that Quebec is at the point where they can start to reward. But you have to couple that with the message that it's not over. We still have to do stuff. We can just do we can just back off a bit. But it's not a free for all yet.

MG: Next door, Ontario will release its plan for a gradual reopening today. What are you expecting in that province?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, I think, you know, gradual is the word. We're going to see some reopening of things that shouldn't have been closed in the first place, like golf courses, etc.. So I think that terror has to get on board with this, get people outside. That's what we're learning from around the world, is where we're safest. So let's take advantage of that and then we'll see this sort of methodical, gradual approach. But I don't think they'll be quite as organised if Quebec with a very good timetable and Ontario has never been that organised, unfortunately.

MG: Well, people have been looking to Saskatchewan. Saskatchewan had kind of one of the first reopening plans across this country, and they hooked it to vaccination rates similar to what Quebec has announced. Is that the right approach?

ANDRE PICARD: It's not a bad approach, you know, the vaccines we know are the hopeful thing, but the problem with Saskatchewan is they just didn't couple it with enough public health measures and they were never strict enough. They backed off too early. So it is really a tandem. The public health measures in the vaccination. You can't just do one or the other.

MG: There's not really a lot of talk in Manitoba about reopening because of the record high numbers of cases. Patients are being sent to intensive care units in Thunder Bay, Ontario. How did Manitoba get to this point as simple?

ANDRE PICARD: This story, again, just not doing enough to to act, waiting too long to act. I think, you know, in in the media, we tend to cover Ontario, Quebec a lot. We don't really have a sense of how bad it is in Manitoba. It's about 30 cases per 100000 population. That's double Ontario. It's five times Quebec. Things are pretty serious there. And they really have to crack down, bring in some public health measures, really ramp up the vaccination and get themselves back on track.

MG: And to your point, I mean, doctors that we've spoken with there have been calling for stronger measure for some time, locked down since April and feel as though they've been ignored. And now is this an example of, you know, this is what we said was going to happen and now it's happening?

ANDRE PICARD: Yeah, unfortunately, it was entirely predictable, as you said, very similar to what is going on in Ontario. The public health measures were not clear. They were slow to act. And in Manitoba is now it's their turn to pay the price.

MG: It's moving the provinces very quickly around second vaccine appointments. You can start to book those second appointments tomorrow. How far can vaccines go? And helping Manitoba turn the corner.

ANDRE PICARD: Well, vaccines are important. They're going to allow the stop of the spread, but you really have to get the virus out of the community. Once it's still- if it's still circulating, there's still a risk, even if people are vaccinated. The vaccine aren't 100 percent effective. We are not going to have everyone vaccinated in short order. So it really is that combo that matters.

MG: Let's speak a bit more, speaking of combo's more broadly about vaccines, Canada's chief public health officer, Dr Theresa Tam, says that Canadians who receive the AstraZeneca as their first shot will have a choice for their second dose. This comes in response, at least in part, to a study that came out of Spain. What do we know about that study?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, we know the Spanish study was very positive and it looked at people who had AstraZeneca in their first dose, Pfizer as their second, and they had seven times more neutralising antibodies. So in other words, they seem to have a much better response and protection. So it's not exactly a direct correlation of protection, but essentially it tells us that it works to make these two vaccines. And that's good news for Canada, because that's the combo we have. We have AstraZeneca and Pfizer.

MG: I mean, NACI has yet to make any sort of formal recommendation on this, but we know that British Columbia and Ontario are going to be moving ahead with second AstraZeneca shots. Full disclosure, I mean, I got the first AstraZeneca shot and I'm wondering kind of what's going to be happening down the road. What do you think Canadians need to be thinking about if their first doses were AstraZeneca?

ANDRE PICARD: I think it's clear what we have to do or, you know, we dumped AstraZeneca, I think, for good reason, given our context. But we have to offer the second dose to people who want it, and we have to give a choice of something else to those who don't want it at this point. It's give people what will make them comfortable. And the second part of the equation is absolutely don't waste any vaccine if we're not going to use it, shipped it somewhere where it can be used. So it's that combination, again, of things we have to get our act together on this and make sure that not a single dose is wasted.

MG: Thousands of doses are sitting in fridges and we know more are coming of AstraZeneca. Is it possible that you think 14 months, 15 months into this pandemic that we could see doses go to waste?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, it's happening in all over the world for different reasons, and, yes, it's possible and it would be it would be shameful. And it's it will only happen if we dither and we can't afford to dither on this issue. It's actually it's a pretty straightforward issue. No, we know I think we really overthink this one. We know that second doses are important. We know that mixing of vaccines happens fairly commonly. You know, someone like Allison McGee, who is a real expert microbiologist, says the chances of this being an issue are slim to none. So we just have to get our second dose. It doesn't really matter what it is, except for really technical reasons. So let's use them as smartly as possibly as possible. And if we don't want to give them to someone who can benefit India, Africa, whatever

MG: there has been on this programme and certainly elsewhere, a lot of talk around the pace of the vaccination rollout in Canada. And a lot of people wanted their vaccines yesterday. Things for many people were moving far too slowly. Canada is set to surpass the United States in per capita the number of people who have had one dose of the vaccine. Are you surprised that we're going to get to that point?

ANDRE PICARD: No, I think, you know, we've been we've been saying along we know that our rollout was bumpy, we know or slow, but we also knew that our contracts were pretty backloaded. So I remember writing back in February, we're going to be swimming in vaccine by June. And that's the reality. We're by this weekend, by the long weekend, we're going to have vaccinated 20 million Canadians. And that's great, this comparison between countries. Again, I don't think it's that important. Let's just focus on using what we have in the maximum fashion and the smartest fashion. And that's what we're finally doing now. So let's continue doing.

MG: Lastly, let's talk about school. Almost all students in Alberta will be back in school next week for in class learning, with the exception of folks around the area of Fort McMurray, which is still a bit of a hot zone there. There's some mixed reaction to this, a lot of excitement, but also worry. There are people in Ontario wondering whether their kids will be back in school at any point in time this year. And this is a concern that's been across the country in many parts over the course of this pandemic. What do you say to families worried about their children in the community safety? Should kids be back in school?

ANDRE PICARD: You know, this is one of the most divisive issues of the pandemic since day one. I've always said I think it should be a priority. Getting children to school should be a priority. So let's get them there. The political reaction is what matters here. It's very different. I think going back to school in Alberta, that makes sense. Even though there's not that much time in the school year. Ontario, I think they've dug themselves or are painted themselves into a corner. I don't think school's going to be going back, unfortunately. But we have to remember, you can't look at this in isolation. If kids are not in school, where are they? That's the big unknown. So I think having them in school is probably the safest option if you can if it's politically palatable.

MG: I mean, there are questions as to whether even kids could go back for a week for that last week of school, the last couple of weeks with that, given the fact that, as you say, this doesn't exist in isolation, there are physical concerns, mental health concerns as well. Would a week or two work?

ANDRE PICARD: I don't think it would hurt, you know, I think it would that be good for the morale, good for people's state of mind, a little bit like you don't go back saying you're going to have a small party. Well, it would be nice to get kids back to school. And we have to remember again that in much of the country, they have been in school all along. And maybe in Ontario, it's time that they get on board with this and give kids a chance to see their friends before summer. And, you know, to me, the thing that excites me about school is September. I think in September, we're going to go back with probably a big vaccine campaign and it's going to be the beginning of the end of the pandemic.

MG: Andre, great to talk to you as always. And we'll speak again. Thank you.

ANDRE PICARD: Thank you.

MG: Andre Picard, health columnist for The Globe and Mail.

[Music]

MG: You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio one. My name is Matt Galloway tonight, 7:00 p.m. Eastern, the puck will drop on another NHL playoff series, but not just any playoff series. It is the Montreal Canadiens against the Toronto Maple Leafs, the first round, the first time these two teams have met in the playoffs since 1979. Cast your mind back to 1979. Era of Ken Dryden, Gila LaFleur, Darryl Sittler, Linda McDonald, great hair, great moustaches as well. Home Ice, the Montreal Forum and Maple Leaf Gardens. And here is how that series ended.

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Unidentified: Canadians getting fat. Here comes the shot. No! What a clean shot! The season is over For the second night in a row, the Leafs have seen their efforts come to no avail as the Canadians swept the series.

MG: The Oregon kind of rubbing it in there as well, that gold knocked the leaves out of the playoffs, the Habs went on to win the Stanley Cup. The Canadians Leaf's rivalry, one of the most storeyed rivalries in hockey history, or at least it was. Times change, leagues expand, divisions divide. Dave Stubbs grew up Montreal Canadiens fan and punk. Quebec covered hockey and the Habs for the Montreal Gazette for close to 30 years. He's now hockey columnist and historian for NHL Dotcom, and he is in Montreal. Dave, good morning.

DAVE STUBBS: Good morning to you, Matt. It looks like the earth is finally back on its proper axis. Is it not?

MG: Nature is healing in a way. I introduced you as a hockey historian. There's a lot of history between these two teams, isn't there?

DAVE STUBBS: Oh, my gosh. It goes back to 1918, March 11th and March 13th, 1918, the Toronto Arenas before they were at the Toronto St. Pat's before and they were the Toronto Maple Leafs, met the Canadians in a two game total gold series to decide which NHL team was going to go forward to challenge for the Stanley Cup. And the Arenas won that series 10 goals to seven, and they played the Vancouver millionaires of the Pacific Coast Hockey Association and won the Stanley Cup the first time that the Toronto franchise before they were indeed the Maple Leafs, won their their first of 13 championships. So I got this entire rivalry goes back more than 100 years. It goes right to the very first year of the National Hockey League. And to have it kind of come around again this year, 42o years after the last time these two teams met, is going to be something very, very special no matter your allegiance.

MG: What do you remember about that rivalry in 1979?

DAVE STUBBS: Well, I was actually probably three years into the journalism business at that point. I had just started work at the Montreal Gazette. I was working on the sports desk at that time. And I remember that the Canadians, they were literally a juggernaut at that point. Right? I mean, this was going to be their fourth consecutive Stanley Cup and the run of four straight. I do remember that the Tiger Williams took a penalty in overtime, and that's really what sort of precipitated Larry Robinson's goal that eliminated the Maple Leafs. And Tiger came out of the penalty box and made a beeline for the official, and he was bulldog by his own team. And Larry finally took him aside and kind of grabbed him by the scruff of the neck and said, Tiger, you don't want to be doing this because it's going to cost you a ton of money and a whole bunch of games. So Robinson kind of pulled him aside. But, yeah, the Canadians went on, then won the Stanley Cup. It then became the province of, you know, the New York Islanders and then the Edmonton Oilers. And the Canadians, of course, would have just won the cup again in 86 and in 93. But that was certainly they were amongst the glory days. And those were the days when the Montreal John Drapeau famously sent out a press release saying the Canadian Stanley Cup parade will follow the usual route.

MG: There are very few press releases like that in Toronto because nobody remembers what the usual route would be. How much of this rivalry was French versus English, French Canada versus English Canada?

DAVE STUBBS: Well, Dave Keon was born in Noranda, Quebec, and that's almost, that's almost sacrilegious to tell any Toronto Maple Leafs fan that in 2016, Keon was voted the most popular maple leaf of all time. Well, David was actually born in Quebec. He was born in Noranda, and he would have had some fabulous feuds in minor hockey when the neighbouring towns of [unintelligible] and Noranda played against one another. So, yeah, very much. It's a cultural and linguistic thing. You're right from the from the outset of your discussion here today, you know, I guess realignment of the National Hockey League in the way the league has changed and the way the league has grown, you know, with free agency, with the salary cap teams break apart. You can't keep the same roster together. 1956 to 60, when the Canadians won five consecutive Stanley Cups, they had twelve players, the same coach in the same general manager on all five teams. And that is absolutely unthinkable today. Right. So but to your point, Matt, yes, absolutely. It is an issue of language culture. Ken Dryden has spoken in a very erudite fashion, as Ken does about that. And it's one of those things that, you know, while it's it's diluted a little bit over the years, I think you're going to see a little bit of a touch back to that in the next week or the next four to seven games.

MG: In 2021, what is this team, the Montreal Canadiens. What does it mean to Quebec? Because there was this I mean, a bit of a dust up in the last couple of weeks for the fact that for the first time, I guess, ever, no Quebec born player was on the ice in a Habs Jersey.

DAVE STUBBS: Yeah. And I maintain that the average fan wouldn't care if the Montreal Canadiens are made up of twenty Romulans. It wouldn't matter because the Stanley Cup parade is the universal language. And it's been a full generation of Canadians fans now who have not seen the Stanley Cup to whom the cup is a rumour. I know it's been a lot longer than that in Toronto. Everyone kind of jokes. They say the last time the Leafs won the Stanley Cup, Lester Pearson was a prime minister, not an airport. Right. But, you know, in Montreal, we get our digs in at. In Toronto, they get their digs just as well. Back to us, so in Montreal and in the province of Quebec, the Canadians are still at they are 13 months of the year. Twenty five hours a day. I mean, it just doesn't matter. Talk radio is buzz now, as I'm sure it is in Toronto. The fact that these two teams are getting together again, no matter that the rivalry is different and no matter how the scales seem very heavily tilted in the Maple Leafs direction, they certainly had the Canadians lunch during the 10 games this regular season, I think is still going to be an incredibly special series.

MG: You spoke earlier this week with people who are part of that 79 match up and you asked them to put this rivalry in perspective. I want to play a little bit of that. First, it's Larry Robson and then Scotty Bowman and the Leafs Lanny McDonald.

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VOICE 1: Toronto is just a great sports city, period, and so is Montreal. So to have this rivalry and to see this rivalry again, I think it's good for hockey and I think it's good for Canada in particular.

VOICE 2: Every kid in Canada growing up would either be a Montreal fan or a Canadian fan, and the West would be heavily involved with the Toronto Maple Leafs in the east, like Quebec, on with a lot of a lot of Montreal, obviously. And that's passed down through generations. And I think it's going to be a terrific series.

VOICE 3: You look at rivalries, you look at the Calgary Edmonton one, you look at the New York Rangers, New York Islanders, you look at Boston, Montreal or Quebec and Montreal. But I don't think anything touches the Montreal Canadiens and Toronto rivalry. As a hockey fan, I love the Canadian division. It's been something totally different. And what a great change for this to kick off the playoffs, I think is absolutely phenomenal.

MG: None of the players on the ice tonight were even born the last time these two teams met in the playoffs. What does that tell you about? I mean, does the rivalry still exist, do you think, for these, for the younger players, the players who are on the ice now?

DAVE STUBBS: I think they're aware of it, Matt. I think that obviously they haven't lived any of it. I mean, they've lived ten games this year and they're aware of the rivalry. Mean Joe Thornton is the closest guy to a been anyone who was born at the time. Joe was seven months in the womb the last time these two teams met. So, you know, the Maple Leafs haven't won a playoff series since 2004. The Canadians haven't won the Stanley Cup since 1993. That's the last time a Canadian team won. I, I kind of joke with some of my friends, the NHL in the States. I said we've just blown the Stanley Cup to you guys now for the last going on, what number of year, it's like a sterling library book. We just loan it out to you and it comes back to the Hall of Fame and we keep it here in safekeeping for you. So, you know, you go back 1967. I mean, that Stanley Cup rivalry was tremendous. It was the last year of the original six 1942 to 67, there were six teams in the NHL and the Canadians pretty much were, they had guaranteed they were going to win it. This was the year of exposed 67 and they had a place set aside in the Quebec pavilion at Expo 67 to display the cup. Well a cup was displayed at Expo 67 but in the Ontario Pavilion and some folks in Montreal who are old enough still have not forgiven the leagues for that.

MG: I don't want to get you in trouble in Montreal, but who's going to win this series?

DAVE STUBBS: Toronto in five. I think the Maple Leafs are just too strong a team. I think they have too many good parts. That said, the beauty of the Stanley Cup playoffs matters, as we all know, is you get in there and anything can happen. Your goaltender can stand on his head. You can get secondary scoring. Guys who are supposed to score aren't scoring on the other team. A team gets a bit ahead of steam. Dave Keon put it very well to me when I was speaking with him about a week ago. He said that the Maple Leafs can give the Canadians hope and he suggested that the 1967 Leafs kind of did the same thing to the Canadians when they went up three games to two in that sixty seven Stanley Cup final. He said, we knew going back to Toronto we could not take it back to Montreal for game seven because bad things would have happened. So I'm an original Six fan. I love great hockey. I don't care what Jersey is being worn. If a great play is a great play and then so be it. And I've always said that the best story is the story I like to cover no matter what dressing room it's in. So I would go out on a limb and probably have just lost a whole ton of friends in Montreal by seeing the Leafs in five. But I think Toronto just has too much across the board for Montreal to handle this year,

MG: Toronto fans will take that optimism. It's been a long, long time, but they've seen anything quite like that. Dave, great to talk to you as always. Thank you.

DAVE STUBBS: Same here, Matt. Thanks for having me.

MG: Dave Stubbs, hockey columnist, historian for NHL Dotcom. He was in Montreal. As we just heard, it has been 42 years since the Leafs and Habs met in the playoffs. It's also been forty two years since Rock Carrier published his ode to that hockey rivalry. Of course, it was called. The Hockey Sweater.

SOUNDCLIP

Speaker 4: Mr. Eaton answered mother's letter promptly, two weeks after she wrote it, we received this letter. It was one of the greatest disappointments in my life. Instead of the red, white and blue Montreal Canadiens sweater, Mr. Eaton had send the blue and white sweater of the Toronto Maple Leafs. I had always worn the red, white and blue sweater of the Montreal Canadiens. All my friends wore the red, white and blue sweater. And besides, the Toronto team was always being beaten by the Canadiens with tears in my eyes. I saw the strength to see I never wear that uniform. First of all, said my mother, you're going to try on if you make up your mind about something before you try it, my boy, you won't go very far in this life. I was crying, I can't wear that. Why? The sweater is a perfect fit? Mourice Richard would never wear it. You're not Maurice Richard. Besides, it's not what you put on your back that matters. It's what you put inside your head. You'll never make me put in my head to wear a Toronto Maple Leafs sweater.

MG: That's The Current for this Thursday. Stay tuned to CBC Radio One. Q is up next. Ali Hassan speaking with legendary environmentalist David Suzuki. You thought we were going to leave you hanging, didn't you? You thought we wouldn't continue with the hockey sweater? Well, no, of course not. Young Roch where the sweater to the outdoor hockey rink, he gets benched. We'll leave you with what happens next. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

SOUNDCLIP

By the third period, I still played one of the defencemen was it on the nose? But I think it started to bleed and I just went to the ice. My moment had come. [Whistle]. When the referee saw my Maple Leaf sweater, he gave me a penalty because there were already five players on the ice. That was too much. It was too unfair. This is persecution. It's just because of my blue sweater and out of spite, I crash may stick against the ice so hard that it broke. I bent down to pick up the pieces. When I got up there, young [unitnelliglbe], on skate, was standing in front of me, my child, you're not going to lay down the law around here just because you're wearing a Maple Leafs sweater. A good bye never loses his temper. Pick up your skates and go to that church and ask God to forgive you. [Music]. Wearing my Toronto Maple Leafs sweater, I went to the church and prayed to God. [Music]. I asked God to send me right away a hundred million moths that would eat up my Toronto Maple Leafs sweater.

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Thursday May 20, 2021 Transcript

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