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The AIH Transcript for May 18, 2021

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is “As It Happens”.

[Music: Theme]

CO: Attacks of conscience. An Israeli government spokesperson defends the continued bombardment of Gaza, and says -- despite the dozens of Palestinian children who have been killed -- that the military is doing everything possible to avoid civilian casualties.

CH: Broken homes. Vandals in BC have damaged dozens of nesting boxes at a crucial breeding time -- and a retired biologist says she's never seen these kinds of attacks against birds before.

CO: Antidotal evidence. The FDA has approved a stronger version of Naloxone -- to help combat America's overdose epidemic. But our guest says the new approach may do more harm than good.

CH: The liberal delete. Donald Trump is claiming crucial Arizona voting records have been erased -- but the Republican elected to keep the records safe says that's not true -- and his staff are endangered by the lies.

CO: distilling his argument. A scientist who made vodka from apples grown in Chernobyl wanted to challenge what he calls misguided opinions on just how radioactive the area really is -- but he may not get a shot.

CH: And... making themselves a laughing livestock. A new study concludes at least 65 species make vocalizations that are akin to laughter -- which reminded us of research proving that rats giggle when tickled.

CH: “As It Happens”, the Tuesday edition. Radio that thinks there's something funny about tickling a rat, but we can't put our finger on it.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Israel Government Response,AZ Election Results, Chernobyl Liquor

Israel Government Response

Guest: Michael Freeman

CH: Across Israel and the West Bank today, thousands of Palestinians went on strike. Workers are protesting against the ongoing bombardment of Gaza by Israel, which has now killed more than 200 Palestinians. Rocket fire from militants in Gaza has killed about a dozen people in Israel. As the death toll mounts, there are growing calls for a ceasefire, and an international investigation into the civilian death toll in Gaza. Michael Freeman is a policy advisor to Israel's Minister of Foreign Affairs. We reached him in Jeruselem.

CO: Mr. Freeman, as you know, there is growing demand for a cease-fire. We are hearing support for a cease-fire both from the United States and the European Union, at this point. Will you heed those calls, or will the airstrikes and the attacks on Gaza continue?

MICHAEL FREEMAN: Carol, as you know, we've sustained... we've been subjected to three and a half thousand rockets from Hamas in the Gaza Strip. And before we have any cease-fire, we need to make sure that any ceasefire is a long-term one. There's no point in having a cease-fire that after 24 hours or 48 hours or a couple of weeks, it comes back. We don't want to have any sort of Band-Aid solution. It needs to be a serious answer to stop Hamas and their rockets that will bring a sustained period of calm to both the Israelis and to all the people here, but also for the Palestinians as well. So I think it's important that any cease-fire that comes about brings along a sustained period of calm. It isn't just a short-term stopgap.

CO: So I'll take that as a no, you don't plan to stop the strikes?

MF: Well, it's about making sure that we stop the Hamas rockets. You know, Hamas started this. We've got three and a half thousand rockets being fired onto Israeli towns and cities. Millions of Israelis are in their bomb shelters, not able to live their life. And we need to make sure that... that we stop those rockets.

CO: I think maybe our listeners should know what you and I both know, which is that when you speak of 3,500 rockets being fired at Israel, that you have something called the Iron Dome, don't you? It is a missile defence system that means that 90 per cent of those rockets never land on Israel. You've said elsewhere in other interviews that a large number of these rockets aren't even getting to Israel. They're landing in Gaza. So let's just give people a better sense of what the threat is that you are faced with, and what kind of response you're giving to that threat?

MF: Well, the threat is very real. Even if only 10 per cent of those rockets are landing, that's still over 300 rockets landing on Israeli towns and cities --

CO: And… and what have been the casualties of those... those rockets?

MF: Well, those casualties, so far, 11 Israelis have been killed, and hundreds of others have been injured. And... and, you know, that's obviously absolutely tragic. And we need to make sure that we stop Israelis from being killed in this process. And you're right, we do have the Iron Dome, and thank God we have the Iron Dome! Because if we didn't have the Iron Dome, we would be talking of probably hundreds of deaths on the Israeli side, maybe even more than that.

CO: And as you know, the people in Gaza don't have an Iron Dome, and they are talking about hundreds of deaths, 212 people so far, 61 children according to the Gaza Health Ministry, some 2,500 people are homeless. You have destroyed approximately 90 buildings where people lived, where they had their jobs, where they had their businesses. And you have tens of thousands of people who have been displaced. And so they are disproportionately being affected. You say that you have a right to defend yourself. And, of course, that's true. But is not that true that only if it's proportionate? And would you not call this grossly disproportionate to the threat that you are facing in Israel?

MF: So firstly, the death of any innocent is an absolute tragedy. And as the father of two young children, it really breaks my heart. And I think that's the reason we need to get rid of Hamas. Hamas are using… are cynically using their population. Firstly, the vast majority of those being killed, the vast majority are Hamas terrorists. But Hamas plant their rockets --

CO: Excuse me!!! No, wait a second. Sorry, sir. The vast majority of the people being killed are Hamas terrorists. How do you know that? We're talking about 61 children. Are they Hamas terrorists? Is the doctor that we did a story about last night who was, by all accounts, a man who had... was a-political, a man who was helping people in his community. Was he Hamas? Were the 212 people? Are you actually saying the majority of these people and children and women are Hamas?

MF: No, firstly, I didn't say the majority of the children. Obviously --

CO: Majority of people being killed, you said, are Hamas. And so can you correct this?

MF: Correct. Correct.

CO: What you're saying?

MF: I'm saying... I'm saying that the majority of the... of the total number of killed are Hamas terrorists. I'm also saying that the death of any child and the death of any innocent is an absolute tragedy. And we have to look at why that's happening? And why that's happening is because, you know, we're doing everything we can to avoid civilian casualties. And if you look at our record compared to any other Western country who's been involved in some form of war with terror groups who embed themselves within society, our... our... success... our ability to avoid civilian casualties is much better than any other Western country. But that's still being said. The death of any innocent. The death of any innocent is an absolute tragedy.

CO: Right, so if that's the case. If the death of any innocent is an absolute tragedy, why not go back to this again? You said the majority of people who have been killed are Hamas terrorists. What is your evidence of that? Have they been tried? Have they been found guilty of this? What is your evidence that the people you have killed in these attacks -- 110 guided missiles launched from 62 fighter jets -- including the artillery attacks you've had in this. What is your evidence that the people who were killed were Hamas terrorists? I'd like to know that.

MF: Well, evidence is that the army and the security services do full analysis of all of the targets and all of the strikes that we do. And even Hamas themselves have admitted that the... that the majority of the people who have been killed are their… are their... terrorists or their people.

CO: Where did you… I’d like to just know, where does that information come from that they say that the majority of the people killed are terrorists?

MF: If you... if you look at Hamas websites, they put out the numbers of their people and the people are there. I don't, obviously, have that statistic in front of me at this moment because we're on a radio interview. But I do want to say that Hamas put their command and control centres, and they fire their missiles from outside of civilian centres. They are carrying out a double war crime. They are firing from within civilian centres, using the Gaza population as human shield and firing into Israeli civilian population. Ultimately, if Hamas were to say now, they didn't want to build rockets... and if I may quote a Hamas leader, this is not me saying this. You asked for quotes. Yahya Sinwar, who is one of the major leaders of Hamas, openly said that when Hamas took over the Gaza Strip in 2006, they had a choice. They could either become like Singapore, or they could choose the path of resistance. And that they chose the path of resistance. And for him, what he means by the path of resistance is buying rockets and attacking Israel. So in Hamas's own words, they had a choice what type of future they wanted for their population. And they chose the form of terror.

CO: Let's just talk about what started this present round. Because Hamas says why they are firing at you is because of the actions that the Israelis have taken. Number one, at the Al-Aqsa Mosque where police raided during the holiest day of Ramadan. Went into the holiest part of that with stun grenades, with rubber bullets, with tear gas. And that wasn't the only occasion when that happened. Now, we are also saying that they're responding to the... the planned evictions of Palestinian families from East Jerusalem. Hamas is saying it’s responding to the attacks that you have made on them. They've also pointed to the fact that there have been... that mobs of Jewish men who have gone through Arab neighbourhoods in Israel calling death to Arabs. Who have smashed stores. And in one case, dragged the man out of his car, a Palestinian, and beat him nearly to death. That was all on international television. So they are responding to some extent. Can you not acknowledge that?

MF: So I will say the following things on each one of those things. Firstly, in terms of the... the disputes in Sheikh Jarrah, this is a complex and long-running dispute between a group of people, a group of Israelis who say they own the land and a group of Palestinians who say they have the right to live there. The court case that's currently going through the court system... and it's a complex legal decision that has been going on for over ten years. In terms of --

CO: And what rights do those Palestinians have in those courts to claim that that is their property?

MF: They have full legal rights. They have full, total rights of the Supreme Court. And the Supreme Court is a totally independent, well-respected judicial system all around the world.

CO: What defence you have for the raids in the Al-Aqsa mosque?

MF: Regarding the Al-Aqsa Mosque, for every single year, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians and hundreds of thousands of Muslims pray on the Al-Aqsa mosque during Ramadan, and they do so peacefully. Israel since 1967 has guaranteed freedom of religion and freedom of worship. And Muslims can pray there every single Ramadan. And they pass every single year without. This year, that wasn't the case. A small group of... of provocateurs gathered rocks and stones and fireworks and other things within the mosque, and they started throwing them on Jewish worshippers down below. They started attacking the police. They started attacking. And the Israeli police decided to, like anyone else would, to restore order because people worshipping and people praying is something we encourage. It's something we want to happen. Having a riot is absolutely unacceptable.

CO: The people who were... and it's not clear who started it first, but the stone-throwers, we’re talking about women and children who are inside Al Aqsa mosque praying. So why should they be subjected to that attack by the police, given that they weren't throwing stones?

MF: There were lots of people inside the mosque. And the Israeli police went in in order to restore order. But, Carol, let me just say this. Let's assume, and obviously, I don't, but let's assume that what you say, that there's a court dispute that's going on. The police were heavy-handed in the Al-Aqsa Mosque. And again, I don't accept that. But let's say that you're correct. That doesn't justify Hamas firing rockets into Israeli civilian centres and killing women and children. They are doing this because they were looking for any convenient excuse.

CO: When you say that Israelis should not have to shelter in bomb shelters with their children, no one should have to do that with their children. No one should have to face the rocket fire. No one should have to have the alarms that go off in Israel at night when those rockets are coming in. But would you not also agree that no one should have to pull the children... the bodies of children out of the rubble of their homes in Gaza? Would you agree that no one should have to do that?

MF: Absolutely.

CO: And so why would you continue to subject them to that if you agree that... that they shouldn't have to go through that any more than Israelis should have to go through that?

MF: They absolutely shouldn't have to go through that. And we do everything we can to only target the Hamas terrorists. But Hamas terrorists are embedding themselves within the civilian population. They're hiding within apartment blocks. They're hiding within... in front of schools, in front of hospitals.

CO: That’s not the fault of the children who have been killed, sir.

MF: I agree with you. It's absolutely not their fault. And the thing that needs to happen for them is to remove Hamas. You know, no one, I hope, is suggesting that we should just say, well, OK, they're firing rockets at us. They're killing Israelis. They're attacking our country. But because Hamas are doing that from next to civilian populations, we should just say, OK, we just need to take this until Hamas decide one day they're going to stop. That's preposterous. And it gives a green light to any terrorist anywhere in the world to be able to carry out terror attacks, to be able to attack civilian populations and then just hide amongst civilian populations, knowing that nobody can do anything about it. And that would just encourage terror. And it would make all of us in every country in the world a lot less safe tonight.

CO: We'll leave it there. Mr. Freeman, thank you.

MF: Thank you.

CH: Michael Freeman is a policy advisor to Israel's Minister of Foreign Affairs. We reached him in Jeruselem. You can find more on that story on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[indie rock]

AZ Election Results

Guest: Stephen Richer

CH: Stephen Richer is taking a stand. Mr. Richer is the longtime Republican who was elected as the Recorder for Maricopa County, Arizona. The job is basically to keep documents like election records safe and available for public use. But Donald Trump is still fomenting doubt about his 2020 election loss. The former US President says Maricopa's database has been illegally deleted. Top State Republicans are demanding an audit. That's where Mr. Richer comes in. He says the database is intact and that claims to the contrary are "unhinged." We reached Stephen Richer in Phoenix.

CO: Mr. Richer, what convinced you that you had to fight back against these claims?

STEPHEN RICHER: Oh, wow. Well, thanks, Carol. We're really jumping into it, aren't we? You know, I wanted to stay on the sidelines as much as possible. I have no aspirations of being in the spotlight. And I wanted to just make this office boring and administer and manage my job. But the character assassination and defamation against the good people of Maricopa County and very hard-working elections official, it just became too much. And last week, we were accused again of something that was just completely unfounded and was so readily falsifiable that I was exasperated, and I got defensive on behalf of my people.

CO: Now, you are a Republican, but it's Donald Trump who has said that the county -- that Maricopa County database -- he said, has been deleted. And Karen Fann, an Arizona's Senate president, said this afternoon that the audit is all about ensuring the integrity of the vote. What do you say to them?

SR: I am a Republican. I'd like to still be a Republican. By the time I get through this. I'd like to be friends with these people. I think I agree with them more often than not. But, look, I understand that people are upset when they lose the elections, but we've been indulging too many fantasies and just too many things that have no basis in reality. And it's consumed us. And it's just made it such a significant portion of the population continues to ask about these things. And some Republicans feel the right strategy is to say, no, those are lies. And that's the camp that I now find myself in. And some Republicans say, well, we'll keep on looking because there might be something there. And then there's, I guess, the third camp that fully believes it. But, you know, truthfully, even in the Arizona state Senate, I think most of them don't really believe this, but they want to show their constituents that they're trying to do something. But they're indulging it. And I don't think that's healthy.

CO: What alarms you the most about this audit?

SP: The lack of discipline in language. If you are going to accuse an entity or a person of doing something unlawful, I think you should be very cautious because it has serious repercussions on the lives of the people who are working for the county. And I'll tell you that I found out about Donald Trump's latest missive through a supporter who sent it ahead to me. And she said, you know, Stephen, what's going on here? Why are you deleting files?

CO: So you actually had people that saw that... what Donald Trump said and believed that that's what you were up to?

SR: A hundred per cent! Yeah, it's so sad. I've had people who have supported me throughout the process, who have had lunch with me and know me. And I would have thought that they would have, you know, given me the benefit of the doubt rather than a person living in Florida whom they've never met, who has, you know, had some run-ins with the truth in previous situations.

CO: Some of the ways that this audit has been conducted have been alarming to those who have watched it. What can you tell us about that?

SR: So I actually was hopeful you'd have to be an imbecile to not realize that there's a significant portion of the population here in Arizona who still has questions, doubts, concerns, whether they're founded or unfounded. So I thought that the Arizona Republican Party of the state Senate could speak to some of those concerns. And so I was hoping that they would bring in a professional company with lots of elections experience. But from the reports I've seen, it doesn't seem to be the case. They've made fundamental mistakes, such as, you know, bringing a blue pen into tabulation areas which could re-mark ballots. They've indulged these wild fantasies like searching for bamboo fibres in the ballots to make sure that the ballots were planed in from China. You know, they're searching for this kinematics artifacts thing, which is just a, you know, a fantasy dreamed up by a guy who spent a good number of his years searching for the Ark of the Covenant. So, like, who's going to believe this now other than, you know, the few people, you know, who, like, say they come back, and they say, you know, there were legitimate problems, and Donald Trump really did win. Well, nobody in the centre or the left would believe these people. The CEO of the lead audit company indulged some of the worst conspiracy theories about the election, including the one about Hugo Chavez and his control over the Dominion Voting Systems, which are actually from your dear country, Canada.

CO: [laughing] Yes, we know. But... and Dominion is a company that is quite outraged by this and is suing many of the people who have made these kinds of claims. But, at the same time, can you actually put this back in the bottle? It seems like it's spelled out quite, quite, quite a bit at this point, hasn't it?

SR: I would be very surprised if by the time the 2022 general elections roll around... I don't know. I think we're in… I think we're in very bad shape right now.

CO: Very bad shape in what regard?

SR: I don't think people have confidence in the elections here. I think people will fundamentally challenge the validity of the system from the get-go this time, not just after the fact. I wouldn't be surprised if there was disturbances and discord at the voting polls in 2022. I mean, this is issue number one, two and three right now in Maricopa County. And the level of emotion and fervour for this is.. is alarming.

CO: All right. We will leave it there. Of course, we're following this story, Mr. Richer. And I appreciate that you speak with us. Thank you.

SR: Thank you so much. I appreciate the time.

CO: bye

CH: Stephen Richer is Recorder for Maricopa County, Arizona. We reached him in Phoenix.

[music: hip-hop]

Chernobyl Liquor

Guest: Jim Smith

CH: It's called Atomik Vodka, and for good reason. And not surprisingly, there's been some fallout. A team of British and Ukrainian scientists have created a vodka from apples grown near Chernobyl. Thirty-five years after the catastrophic nuclear accident, farming is still officially banned in the area. But with this vodka, scientists including Jim Smith hope to change that. But just as they were readying the first batch to be shipped to the UK and sold to excited buyers, Ukraine's security service seized the bottles. Jim Smith is one of the scientists behind Atomik vodka. We reached him in Southampton, England.

CO: Professor Smith, where in the world is your vodka right now?

JIM SMITH: Well, we've... we've had a bit of luck over the weekend, so our vodka was with the Ukrainian prosecutors in their warehouse. But it's now been released and it's back at the distillery, hopefully, about to set off for the UK once again sometime this week.

CO: Why did Ukraine's security service actually seize your vodka?

JS: Well, we... we don't know. We hope it was just all a big misunderstanding. The official reason was that they thought that they had forged Ukrainian duty stamps. But we had UK duty stamps, which weren't forged because the vodka was destined for the UK market.

CO: Were you concerned that the reason why they had seised was because it was made from produce from the Chernobyl region?

JS: Yeah, well, that's a good question. We just don't know. We just don't know. I think probably not because although the region that we were working in is called Naroditzky, and it's kind of what we would call a semi-abandoned area. It's called the zone of obligatory resettlement. So at the time of the accident, there were 30,000 people living in this district, and now there are about 10,000.

CO: What... then was the vodka made from produce from the zone of obligatory resettlement, which in itself is such an extraordinary name?

JS: Yeah, yeah, it was. So we have the main exclusion zone, which is called the Chernobyl exclusion zone. And that's now a nature reserve. This vodka, the original experiment we did two years ago to produce just one bottle, was from crops grown in the exclusion zone itself. But this time we were working, and we got apples from... the from the Naroditzky region. And they were distilled to produce our, what we call our apple spirit. I think in the United States, they call it Applejack.

CO: OK, so, [chuckling] I mean, you've obviously tested it. You're scientists. Is your vodka radioactive?

JS: [chuckling] Well, no, no. I mean, our… our original experiment for the crops that we used, it was... it was rye grain we used for our first experiment. And the rye grain was just above the Ukrainian limit. So it doesn't mean it's dangerous, but officially, it couldn't be used for consumption. But when we distilled it, the radioactivity stayed in the waste product, and there was no Chernobyl radioactivity that we could detect in the... in the finished spirit drink. There was some radioactivity. It was natural carbon 14 that you get in every... every food or in people everywhere.

CO: What does it taste like?

JS: Well, the original grain spirit tasted great. And I tasted that. The apple spirit that we've just made and we're trying to import to the UK, I haven't actually tasted it [chuckling] yet because we can't get it here. But my Ukrainian colleagues have all tasted it, and they say it tastes great.

CO: OK, so it's not just to... in order to get some new flavour into the market of some kind of spirit because we know there's always a big interest in that.

JS: Yeah.

CO: But you're trying to make a point, right, about farming in that area.

JS: Yeah.

CO: What's the point?

JS: So the point is that I think too often people understandably make kind of simplistic conclusions about what's happening in those Chernobyl affected areas. Like everything's dangerous. The children are growing up in a radioactive environment. And we think it's important to make the point that it's not as bad as all that now 35 years on.

CO: What kind of effect does that farming ban on the people there... what effect does it have on their livelihoods?

JS: Well, we've been told that unemployment is about 50 per cent in that area. So it's been known for a very long time, actually, that the social and economic consequences, the evacuations, the vast money that was spent on rehousing people, moving people out of these areas, those social-economic consequences of Chernobyl have been as bad, if not worse, than the actual direct effects of radiation.

CO: So, what are you hoping to accomplish for them with the creation of this vodka?

JS: Well, I think we're sort of trying to make a point, but at the same time, we are serious, and we want to produce something that hopefully if it takes off, we could sell it and make a profit. And so we set up a social enterprise, the Chernobyl Spirit Company, and we're hoping to make a profit and reinvest 75 per cent of those profits back into the local community to develop employment, develop education in those areas.

CO: There's vodka's called Atomik Vodka, [chuckling] with a K -- A-T-O-M-I-K.

JS: Yeah.

CO: [chuckling] So you're not hiding what.. the whole back story of it. Is there a market? Are there people interested in buying your vodka?

JS: Yeah, yeah. I mean, we don't know how many, but we're getting emails from all over the world saying, when's it going to go on market? When can we buy it? So it's certainly sparked people's interest.

CO: Uh-huh, and what are you going to sell it for? What will a bottle cost?

JS: We haven't set that. It's going to... it's going to partly depend on how much it's going to cost us to get them here. [both chuckling] It is all... because we're making quite low volumes. It's quite... it's quite an expensive business. But so it won't be cheap. It will be high-end, I think we call it.

CO: All right. Best of luck. Professor Smith, thanks.

JS: OK, thank you.

CO: Bye.

CH: Jim Smith is a professor of environmental science at the University of Portsmouth, and the co-founder of The Chernobyl Spirit Company. We reached him in Southampton, England.

[music: elevator music]

Part 2: BC Bird Nesting Box, FDA Stronger Naloxone

BC Bird Nesting Box

Guest: Dianne Wittner

CH: Along a few kilometres of trail in Salmon Arm, British Columbia, you'll see small wooden boxes -- most of them on posts, but some on trees, telephone poles, and fences. They're nesting boxes for birds. And in recent weeks, dozens of them have been vandalized. And Dianne Wittner says damage has been done to the creatures that use them too. She says she's found babies dead, eggs destroyed, and a female swallow that was bludgeoned to death. Ms. Wittner is a retired biologist in the area. She led the project to create the bird boxes. We reached her in the Shuswap Lake area, in BC.

CO: Dianne, have you ever dealt with anything like this in all your decades as a biologist?

DIANNE WITTNER: No, I have definitely not.

CO: Can you just describe how the birds are reacting to these boxes being destroyed?

DW: During breeding season, you know, birds are driven to reproduce in this very narrow window. And they dedicate all of their resources into raising young. And so when they have a nest built, and they have their eggs laid, that's their focus. And then, all of a sudden, when that is destroyed, either the nest is destroyed, the nest disappears, or the box is knocked down. They literally twitter like crazy. They fly around like frantic. And any people that are standing nearby get dive-bombed because you're viewed as the predator. It's like a distress call is basically what it is.

CO: These boxes that are there that they're using for nesting, there's about 89 of them altogether?

DW: That's right.

CO: So how many of them have actually been hit in this way?

DW: So 32 have been damaged. And then there were two more that were attempted damage that he didn't quite…, or the perpetrator didn't quite succeed. And I say he because it took considerable strength. But I... you know, might not be a he. But we're assuming it is because some of the... some of the vandalisms required considerable muscles.

CO: And it could be a they.

DW: It could be a they, yes.

CO: More than one. Now, just give us a sense of how it escalated? So it was the... your first indication something was wrong and where it went from there?

DW: So the first… the first morning when I got that call, there were a couple of us that responded, and there were boxes that had been... the posts that they were sitting on, which are four-by-four posts that are sunk four feet into the ground, were literally pulled up out of the ground. And then the whole thing laid over, probably fallen over, with the boxes left open to the elements and the entry holes stuffed with things. You know, that was kind of like, well, this is so frustrating and maddening. But when the second time happened, and in the second time, it was 13 boxes, and now nesting season has progressed. And now, we're not just dealing with partially-built nests. Now we're dealing with laid eggs. And then the third time, it's like there is more violence toward the boxes with more force, and more of the boxes are actually broken. Plus, we're seeing babies dead and mothers dead. So it's escalating, and there are more and more people galvanized to act and to stop this perpetrator. We think that the perpetrator is carrying a crowbar, a nail-puller. One of the duck boxes they pulled off a telephone pole was actually attached to that pole with a dozen or so screws. And that was not an easy thing to do. The one female who was bludgeoned to death, those are really well-built boxes. And he busted the box. And then, I mean, it's difficult to describe on the phone, but blood all over the box.

CO: Good heavens!

DW: Yeah.

CO: How necessary are these boxes for those nesting birds?

DW: That's a really good question. As many people know, our songbirds in Canada are in steep decline. They're the most at-risk group of birds we have. And when we first started this project three years ago, we had 29 successful swallow nests because there were only a few boxes available. The community got together, and the number of successful nests has increased every year to the point where we think we can keep adding more and more. And the fact of... of... of the 32 boxes that I've dealt with, everyone but one had a nest in it.

CO: Wow!

DW: That's a really high occupancy percentage. So when you walk down there, there are swallows everywhere. They need to have places to nest.

CO: And is it just swallows that are using the boxes for their nests?

DW: It's also any cavity nesters. So chickadees as well. And they're... one of the chickadee boxes, the babies inside were dead when I opened it up. And also, we get usually we're lucky enough to get one or two bluebirds as well.

CO: What are the theories as to who or why this person or people might be doing this?

DW: Well, we think, first of all, they must be quite disturbed and very angry. And whether or not they hate birds, or they are angry at the world, or they're angry about municipal bylaws, they're taking their grudge out on these innocent little birds. So there are some theories being bandied around. And some of them we can't really talk about publicly because the police are collecting evidence. And can't really say much more about it at this time.

CO: There was a theory that was put out was that it began after signs went up along that trail to keep dogs off the trail during the nesting season. So is it possibly related to that?

DW: It could be. And we have to be careful not to paint dog walkers with an evil brush because the vast majority of people who walked their dogs in that area are very respectful. But there has been some pushback from the dog owners in the community who don't understand that this is an ecologically sensitive area. And dogs are banned from that trail for a two-month period, while so many species in there are raising their young. And the fact that this started just before that ban takes place, it could be relevant, but we can't say for sure at this point.

CO: Do you think you can reconstruct what you have... what had been developed there for those birds?

DW: Well, the response from the community, and not just from our community, but from across the province, has been incredible, with offers of replacement boxes and replacement posts, cash to buy more posts. We've repaired the boxes that we can so they'll get us through this season, but they'll have to be replaced for next year. So we're keeping it going. But we ran out of replacement boxes last Friday, and so if he hits again, we're going to be scrambling and hoping that the new boxes are ready to go. So we will... we are more determined than ever. We're not going to let this guy or this perpetrator win. And, yeah, we will keep it going, and we'll probably increase the number of boxes next year.

CO: Well, I hope you can do that. And I hope you can get those birds back, Dianne.

DW: So do I.

CO: All right. Well, I appreciate speaking with you. Thanks, Diane.

DW: It's been a pleasure. Thank you very much.

CO: Bye.

DW: Bye-bye.

CH: Dianne Wittner is a retired biologist in the Shuswap Lake area in BC. She's also a board member of the Salmon Arm Bay Nature Enhancement Society, and a member of the Shuswap Naturalist Club.

[music: classic rock]

FDA Stronger Naloxone

Guest: Nabarun Dasgupta

CH: In the midst of an ongoing overdose epidemic in Canada and the U.S., Naloxone offers the possibility of life-saving, eleventh-hour intervention. In an emergency, the drug can be administered intravenously, or as a nasal spray, to someone experiencing an overdose. And because of its life-saving potential, it's on the WHO's list of essential medicines. Now, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration has approved a stronger-than-ever formulation -- citing the proliferation of more potent opioids like fentanyl. And that's a seemingly logical step. But some harm reduction experts say its logic is not what it seems. Nabarun Dasgupta is an epidemiologist who studies naloxone at the University of North Carolina. We reached him in Chapel Hill.

CO: Professor Dasgupta, is there any evidence that stronger Naloxone is needed?

NABARUN DASGUPTA: I don't think there is. There's plenty of evidence that the existing doses are sufficient to reverse overdoses. And even though we are told that the heroin is more potent because of fentanyl now, what we have seen from field experience is that the existing doses work really well. We've done studies in the era when fentanyl has appeared in the drug supply, and the number of doses per episode has not changed. And the experience on the ground really shows that about 90 per cent of the time, even a bit higher, 92 per cent of the time, some years, the one or two doses is totally adequate. And the support for this has been seen both in the emergency medical professionals as well as on the ground, kind of working with people who use drugs.

CO: the usual dosage, the recommended dosage, is for milligrams. This idea is that there would be eight-milligram doses of Naloxone. Is there... is there... are there situations in which that would be useful? That that would be necessary?

ND: So the original... when... when nasal Naloxone was first being used, the original recommendation was two milligrams. And then that eventually edged its way up to four milligrams. And, at that point, we were already concerned that four milligrams was going to be too much. And now, to jump to eight milligrams, I think, is pretty counterproductive because if people are put into such severe withdrawal that they feel like they have to use drugs again immediately, then we're not really doing them a favour and could prevent people from accessing Naloxone in the future. Could cause physiological harm as well. There could be other physiological changes that happen, which are harder to control if you're administering it in the community.

CO: This must be extremely difficult for people to assess when they're dealing with it in the community. They're not always doctors or nurses. The people might be people working even with their own family members and trying to guess how to help. So how difficult is it to figure out if there should be a second dose, if it's necessary or if it's dangerous to do so? What are the... what kind of a risk assessment do people have to give?

ND: That's a great question. And something that we were very concerned about when we first started recommending Naloxone about a decade and a half ago. What we found in practice, though, is that most people can calm down and do what needs to be done, which is basically to wait a few minutes after the first dose -- seven or eight minutes. I've been in that situation. I've had to administer Naloxone to people in front of me. And I can tell you, your heart is something, and you're just waiting for those eyelids to flutter and for them to start breathing again. And when you're providing Naloxone to community members, making them aware that this is what the process is like, this is what to expect, that works really well. We've... we've done it thousands, tens of thousands of times and seen people effectively bring people back.

CO: Why then do you think that Hikma Pharmaceuticals is pushing for this more potent Naloxone formulation?

ND: In psychology, it's called an anchoring heuristic. So basically, if there's a product that's perceived to be more safe, then you can imagine that people are going to want the more safer product. But in this case, it's a false sense of security. So I speculate that there is a price motive here. It seems like the kind of mission creep that the pharmaceutical industry has done many, many times with other products in the past.

CO: So there might... it's the motivation might be profit, might be money that they'll get? They'll make more if all the Naloxone kits are carrying a double dosage?

ND: I think you're right. And it's a way to differentiate the product from what's already on the market and a way to pander to the fears. The drugs are so potent these days that we need a more potent dose, right? This is a common narrative that we have heard, at least in the United States, for decades, for almost a century where drugs get more potent, and response has to be, you know, a more technological a more scientific response where the unrelenting focus on potency and the pharmacology obscures and overshadows the behavioural aspects that could be used to solve the situation in a cheaper and more effective way.

CO: If that's the case, then what are the alternatives? What can... how can we deal with a more potent opioids who are out there and that people are getting themselves into?

ND: So I think having options for safer supply is really important. And I think there's been some groundbreaking work in British Columbia around providing hydromorphone as an option for folks who are unable or unwilling to stop using drugs to be able to kind of not put them in a position of buying more potent fentanyl and illicitly manufactured unregulated drugs on the streets. The unregulated drug supply in North America right now is more unpredictable than it has ever been in my years of research. And decriminalization, regulation of illicitly-manufactured drug supply, all of these things could really help to create a public health focus where people can make informed choices and protect their own health and the health of those around them. So I think focussing on safer supply is one side of it. And I think really having good education, good street outreach, where the proper use of Naloxone can be reinforced, and maybe undoing some of the panic that comes from this unrelenting focus on potency. There is enough time during an opioid overdose to reverse the overdose most times. And if we kind of create this background level of panic around potency, then we are doing a disservice to the tools that already exist.

CO: Professor Dasgupta, this is really interesting, very, very useful. And I appreciate speaking with you about this. Thank you.

ND: Thank you for having me.

CH: Nabarun Dasgupta is an epidemiologist at the University of North Carolina's Gillings School of Global Public Health. We reached him in Chapel Hill, North Carolina.

[music: ambient]

FOA: That Scientist Who Tickled Rats

CH: Animals are great. But they're not...funny. Not on purpose. Of course sometimes they're unintentionally funny. Like, you put a bowtie on a pug: hilarious. But the pug isn't writing that material. Or you watch that video where the retired RCMP officer in Nova Scotia feeds hot dogs to a gigantic mob of raccoons.

SOUNDCLIP

MAN: There you go! Wholly smokes! Here. Yes, [laughing] I got everybody here. I got the whole... I got the whole woods here. Holy smokes!

CH: See, that's funny because it's a lot of raccoons eating hot dogs. The raccoons themselves aren't aware of their comic timing, though. Just the Walmart wieners. But just because animals aren't intentionally funny doesn't mean they don't laugh. In fact, a recent study in the journal Bioacoustics concluded that 65 species -- including humans -- make vocalizations that are the equivalent of laughter. Now, it's not like the animals are chuckling at New Yorker cartoons. They laugh during what's called "complex social play". Essentially, when they're goofing around together. And it's not just primates. It's also badgers, sea lions, bears, elk, and magpies. Among others. These "play vocalizations" help animals get along, and communicate their roles to each other. So their laughter is important. It's just not very highbrow. We heard proof of that in 2016 -- when neuroscientist Shimpei Ishiyama talked to Carol about a study he'd worked on, in which he and his team tickled rats.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Mr. Ishiyama, how do you go about tickling a rat?

SHIMPEI ISHIYAMA: Ticklishness is one of the most mysterious sensations in humans also. So even though ticklishness is so common in human culture, we don't know why we laugh when we are tickled. And why we can't tickle ourselves. There are so many mysteries. And, indeed, rats are also ticklish -- that means they do vocalize when they're tickled. So this special vocalization is indicating their positive emotions, such as happiness or joy. And so I got interested in what's going on in the brain, first of all when they are tickled.

CO: We have a bit of the sound that rats make when they are tickled. And so let's just have a listen to that.

[Sound: rats being tickled]

CO: What are you doing when the rats are making that sound?

SI: So I flip over the rat, and push them back on the floor. And I move my finger rapidly on their belly. So the belly is the most ticklish part of the rat, And actually their vocalization is ultrasound. So it's so high that we humans can't hear [it]. And so there's a special microphone which can capture ultrasound, and the computer just transposes the sound to the lower frequency, so that we can hear it.

CO: It sounds like it’s giggling.

SI: Yes, or some scientists call it "rats' laughter."

CO: Now there's a German word that you use in your research, freudensprung. What does it mean?

SI: It's like a common German word, which means we use human judgments when we are excited like “yeah!” We hop, we jump when we are happy. And that's what we saw in rats as well.

CO: And now are they. In what conditions are they most likely to enjoy being tickled? I'm sure and sometimes it must be must be scary for them to see someone coming at them…with a human hand coming toward them. So how do you get them in the mood?

SI: Yeah, it looks like maybe if you take a look at the video, it looks like it's rather like a firm shaking their body rather than tickling. So this is actually how they play with each other. So they actually play very hard. It's also called "rough and tumble play." Is… a technical scientific term of rat play.

CO: "Rough and tumble play" is a technical term?

SI: OK. Yes. And yes I also do tickle them so firmly… so kind of vigorously on their belly, and that's their way to make them laugh.

CH: From our archives, neuroscientist Shimpei Ishiyama, speaking to Carol in November of 2016.

[music: electronic]

Part 3: Grenfell Tower Families, Merry Dairy Rhubarb

FOA: Mansion Casino Best

CH: It's not the endgame police were hoping for on "Project Endgame.” Last summer, York Regional Police held a press conference at the front gates of a 20,000-square-foot mansion north of Toronto. Behind those gates, police said, was a massive illegal casino, a million dollars in cash, 1.5 million dollars in alcohol, firearms, and ammunition, a spa, a stuffed polar bear -- the list went on. But now, charges against the alleged kingpin of the operation have been dropped -- because his defence team accuses police of planting evidence and taking off with some of their client's luxury watches, totalling 450,000 dollars in value. Last October, Carol spoke with York Regional Police Sergeant Andy Pattenden about the bust.

SOUNDCLIP

ANDY PATTENDEN: This house was a 20,000-square foot home that was basically not lived in at all, that was turned into a high end, high stakes casino. I can tell you that the basement of the property was loaded with a full high-end bar. We seized more than 1.5-million dollars worth of top shelf alcohol. And the basement was full of card tables and slot machines and just opulence throughout this entire house that also housed people. There was a spa running there. And I can tell you it wasn't a spa that was doing people's hair and nails. We are still investigating human trafficking that was likely to have taken place there. But just, you know, a high end at every level and a lot of money being moved through this location.

CO: Okay, so many laws being broken here, including you mentioned you're still investigating the human trafficking. Also weapons, right? Can you tell us about that?

AP: What was most concerning to us as we began to unravel this investigation were the number of guns that we believed were at this house. We believe that there were security guards that were armed with handguns as well as dogs. But when we did the search warrant back on July 23rd, we had brought in over 90 tactical officers to execute the warrant because this place, 20,000 square foot mansion, was fortified by a wall again with armed security guard dogs. And what we found inside was 11 loaded guns not stored safely. In fact, one of the guns up in the bedroom where the owner of the house would stay from time to time was a loaded day AR-15 gun that would have been pointed right out the front window over the place in the event that someone had tried to rob it or someone had tried to get in who wasn't invited to be in that casino.

CO: Many of these weapons, were they prohibited?

AP: All the weapons were restricted weapons. Some of them had been owned lawfully, but the storage of them definitely was not lawful. And some of the guns owned completely unlawfully. One of the guns was a stolen firearm. And a couple of the guns, we do believe, did come up from the United States.

CO: This is a 53 room, 20,000 square foot mansion. Can you just describe what it was like inside?

AP: Absolutely. Just from the gates, when you enter this, I'll call it a palace, because that's really what it was -- oftentimes, people would see high end cars parked out front, Bentleys, Rolls Royce, BMWs and such. Opening the double doors to the main floor. People were greeted by a stuffed polar bear, a full sized polar bear and a number of other stuffed animals right inside the doors. They would be led downstairs to where the gaming occurred. As well on that main floor, though, there was also a full chef's kitchen, a commercial kitchen serving a variety of items. One of the items we pointed out were shark's fin soup to people that were there. And then upstairs and there was a spa where, you know, patrons of the place would go as well as rooms where people were staying. So everything just over the top. It was truly walking around. And it was truly like something out of, you know, of a movie set, really.

CO: And well, who was arrested? Who owns this place?

AP: Well, the owner of the place is a gentleman by the name of Wei Wei. He's been charged criminally with a number of offenses. When we'd executed the search warrant on July 23rd, we arrested 45 people who were inside the residence at the time. It was a mixture of staff members as well as patrons that were there gambling. Many of those people, actually, 29 of the 45 people were charged with criminal offenses. But this is just an ongoing investigation. So we know that this location is just one of many operating in the Greater Toronto Area. And it's the work now of our Organized Crime Enforcement Bureau to be out there and dismantle more of these operate.

CO: This is Project End Game, you are looking and have looked at other places where there's illegal gaming going on. Is that right?

AP: Oh absolutely. There was a location on Midland Avenue, a warrant was executed there. There's been a couple of other locations. What we're finding now, though, is while this was the high end palace of gaming, what we've also seen are commercial units that have been turned into casinos where essentially the people there that are running the place are giving alcohol and methamphetamine and other things to the people gambling to keep them at the machines as long as possible. And while you have a palace on one end of the spectrum, you have absolute squalor on the other end of the spectrum where they're just working to, you know, get as much money out of people as they possibly can. And what we know ends up happening is that when it's time to collect a lot of that money because people are overspending, that's where we see the violence that's occurring in York Region. And we have had a number of shootings that have taken place in the city of Markham that have been connected back to illegal gaming and some of the debt collection that's been taking place.

CH: That was York Regional Police Sergeant Andy Pattenden speaking to Carol last October. Police just dropped charges against the alleged central figure in a massive bust of an illegal casino, over allegations that police planted evidence and stole luxury watches.

[music: ambient]

Grenfell Tower Families

Guest: Nabil Choucair

CH: The British government says it's time to do something about Grenfell Tower. It has been almost four years since a fire at the highrise apartment building in London killed 71 people. An ongoing inquiry found that cladding added to the outside of the building during a renovation was the main reason why the fire became so intense, so fast. Now the government says it must decide by this summer if, and when, the tower should be, quote, "carefully" taken down. Nabil Choucair lost six family members in the fire. We reached him in London.

CO: Nabil, what did you think when you heard that the government was considering that they would tear the Grenfell Tower down?

NABIL CHOUCAIR: I was shocked and very disappointed and disgusted from when I heard this because they have a promise to us that they would not start taking it down until there was an agreement of what was to be put up.

CO: And that hasn't happened?

NC: No, there hasn't been… there has been no decision yet made.

CO: The government says this is about safety and that the views of the community would be taken into account before anything is done. So... but do you trust them on that?

NC: Who trusts the government now? They say one thing, and they do another, you know? When it comes to safety, we're going to get our own independent inspector and examine it because we're not going to take the government's word for it.

CO: Who’s we that you're referring to?

NC: the family of all... of all have started to ask for an independent inspector simply because they're not happy with this kind of tactic. We've been lied to quite a lot. You know, the people that lived in the tower have been lied to. So, you know, it's not going to rob us anymore, you know?

CO: When we spoke with you in 2019, that was when the first report from the enquiry had been released. And I'm sorry, that's the time when we talk to you about your losses, your mother, your sister, your brother-in-law, your nieces, all of them who died in the fire.

NC: Yes.

CO: What... what do you want to see done with the tower that would remember them?

NC: I would like to have a... to have everybody's idea incorporated, to have a legacy, a legacy that will remind who the people were who lived in that tower so people can see and understand our children's children's children, you know, for years and years to come, will see who these people were.

CO: And what would you want them to know about those family members?

NC: They were something really special and amazing, and I hope, you know, we can get them to justice and do the good that they more than deserve.

CO: What does the tower look like right now?

NC: It's all covered up at the moment, so you can't see what it looks like.

CO: Do you think that people should be able to see that?

NC: I think, you know, if they saw that, the government wouldn't be very happy seeing that. And I personally feel, you know, it should really kind of be shown to them, you know? To remind them of how... how people are still living in dangerous cladding, you know, with buildings with cladding of the same type that was used on Grenfell Tower.

CO: And do you think that people don't know that?

NC: People know that they're living in the same type of cladding, but it's all about money. Who's going to take it down? The government don’t want to pay for it, even though they've paid some of it. We're trying to still fight them, to demand and say, you know, this shouldn't be sold. This shouldn’t be put up now at all. You put it up. You need to take it down. We can't have another Grenfell.

CO: What's left of this tower... they said they won't do anything with that site until the fifth anniversary, which is June 2022, so that's next year. And what are some of the ideas you're hearing that people would like to see? Not what the government wants. What are people wanting?

NC: There's many of ideas. Something like the 9/11. Some people would like to see lots of water, you know, some mixture of, you know, haven, like a little green area, lots of green area, you know, you know, where the kids can play and everything. And there's... there's a lot of mixtures, you know?

CO: There's one suggestion that they... that they should just let nature take over the tower and turn it into a kind of vertical forest with... that would have plants, some different species, different kind of plant that would be for each person who died in the tower. What do you think of that idea?

NC: It's very unusual. I wouldn't want nature to take its... take over or whatever because I think it's very important that the deceased have a legacy and they are always remembered and will never, ever be forgotten.

CO: Meanwhile, just finally, that is... the enquiry is continuing into that cladding and the outside the building that we spoke with you about last time. Is it any closer to knowing more about the story behind that? Is the enquiry getting anywhere?

NC: Well, are they getting into places where, you know, there's a lot of people who don't have the skills, were never qualified. We're still a long way to go. We're still trying to fight for institutional discrimination, you know? Because I think these... these family members were discriminated. Without that, it won’t be a proper inquiry.

CO: Nabil, we'll be following the developments in that and what happens to the tower site. And I appreciate speaking with you tonight. Thank you.

NC: Thank you very much.

CH: Nabil Choucair lost six family members in the Grenfell Tower fire. He's in London, England.

[music: folk]

Kyle Lowry CBC Kids

CH: Like all of us, the Toronto Raptors have been through a lot this year. They were forced to play out their season in Tampa Bay, Florida. It seemed they couldn't catch a break when it came to injuries...or wins. And now that the season is over, the future of the greatest Raptor of all time is once again up in the air. Today, during an end-of-season press conference, Kyle Lowry addressed his future as a free agent. He said he didn't know for sure what would happen next season, but he'll definitely be playing basketball. And then he was asked about his young fans.

SOUNDCLIP

ARJUN RAM: Hi, Mr. Lowry. Arjun Ram, CBC Kids News.

KYLE LOWRY: Yo, what's up? How ya doing, man?

AR: I'm good. How are you? Thank you for taking my question as the last question. Is there anything that you would like to say to young Canadian Raptor fans who watched you guys and cheered for you guys from their homes through their TV?

KL: Thank you. All right. Thank you. I know this year hasn't been... hasn't been, like, what they're used to, you know, I mean, it's now used to the winning that they're used to seeing. But we played our butts off every opportunity that we could. You know, we played extremely hard. And, you know, for... for... for us, and for them as fans, just know that they're isn't a day where we don't think about wishing that we could be in front of them playing basketball. There's not a day that goes by that we say, man, I wish we were at Scotiabank playing in front of our fans, in front of our young fans, our older fans. You know, there's not a day that we... that didn't go by that we wish we were pulling up into University Avenue or coming off the DVP or, you know, the Gardner, going to our home building. There wasn't a day where we didn't miss practicing at our own practice facility. There wasn't a day where we didn't wish that we were coming out of the home tunnel, and our fans stand up there, signing autographs. There wasn't one day where we didn't think about Jurassic Park. We thought about them every single day, thought about the fans every single day. And that's the one thing I would say is that, you know, it was one bad year. It wasn't even a bad year. It was just a difficult year of challenges. We just ran out of... we just ran out of games. But it's always a new year. This is, you know, so it's a time where things are different, right? Hopefully, we can get back to normal and work and be back to normal, and everybody can come and cheer loud as possible.

CH: That was Toronto Raptors point guard Kyle Lowry taking a question from CBC Kids reporter Arjun Ram during today's end-of-season press conference.

[music: jazz]

MMA Champion

SOUNDCLIP

[a very quick bell chime]

ANNOUNCER: It’s an Indian world champion! It’s an Indian world champion! And his name is Arjun Bhullar!

CH: On Saturday, Arjun Bhullar tweeted: "WE DID IT...history made." That wasn't just post-fight euphoria. As you just heard, Mr. Bhullar is now the One Championship Mixed Martial Arts world champion. The first mixed martial arts champion of South Asian descent. His title is a win for both Canada and India -- because Mr. Bhullar was born and raised in Richmond, BC. He says he was wrestling "since [he] was in diapers". And after the diapers, he wrestled for Canada in the Olympic, Commonwealth, and Pan Am Games. This weekend, he defeated longtime heavyweight champion Brandon Vera in Singapore, in a second round TKO. Here is Arjun Bhullar, talking about his win this morning.

SOUNDCLIP

ARJUN BHULLAR: We were really building towards the finish. I could feel it as the fight was coming along. We made our adjustments to really tighten the noose around him. So it was good. He just… he sort of stopped moving. And... and I just kept inflicting damage. And so the ref jumped in and stopped the fight. That's how I got the TKO. And then the confetti comes down; the belt goes on, all of that, so.

GLORIA MACARENKO: [laughing] What's going on in your mind in that moment?

AB: Just a rush of emotions, you know, a lifetime of work. I can't say I was surprised or crazy elated because it went according to plan, but I was just fired up. I think fired up was the word. [GM laughs] And then when it... when it hits you, and you put the belt on, then it's real. So just… just... it's just amazing.

GM: OK, and what goes through your mind when you hear, you know, you hear the announcer say, and he's Indian?

AB: [laughing] Well, I feel pride in that, actually, to be quite honest with you. Every step of the way, I've been... I've been representing my culture and my roots. That speaks to me as... as an Indian, I guess. You know, my parents were able to do that when they came over, they stood out. It was racist times back then. And they were told that it wasn't OK to be different. And for me, I'm born and bred Canadian. I'm proud of that. And part of that is I can honour my culture. So I speak to that wherever I can. The family came over from India, and one of the things that were familiar for the homeland was wrestling. Wrestling is a big deal back home. And my dad picked it up pretty quick when he got here. Didn't know the language. You know, family didn't have much in our pocket, but they knew wrestling. Our generation was basically just born into it. And I've been doing it since I was in diapers. And then amateur wrestling, the Olympic Games and Commonwealth, all that, it's a great experience, but you're an amateur athlete. So if you want to turn professional, you either go WWE, or you go what's now Mixed Martial Arts. And I chose to go this way and be a professional athlete. It's not easy having a kid that's doing this for a living, but I'm healthy, I'm happy, and I think that's all you can ask for as a parent.

CH: That was MMA world champion Arjan Bhullar speaking with CBC host Gloria Macarenko today on "On the Coast."

[music: pop]

Merry Dairy Rhubarb

Guest: Marlene Haley

CH: If you go out for ice cream, there are almost as many ways to pay as there are flavours. You can tap your debit or credit card. Redeem a rewards card for a free soft-serve. Pay beforehand with any one of a bunch of apps. Or, of course, you go with the "vanilla" option, and pay with cash. But at the Merry Dairy in Ottawa, they've got a payment system you've probably never heard of before. Marlene Haley is the owner of The Merry Dairy. We reached her in Ottawa.

CO: Marlene, what can people bring to the Merry Dairy in order to get a pint of ice cream?

MARLENE HALEY: They can bring their rhubarb stalks from their backyard gardens. And will exchange it for… for currency.

CO: Their rhubarb? Their rhubarb from their gardens?

MA: That's right.

CO: [laughing] How much rhubarb would I need for a pint of ice cream?

MA: Well, it changes based on supply. And last week, it was worth a little bit more. We had a lot of rhubarb come in. So now today, one stock divided by four, plus you get points for how ripe it is, the colour and whether it's trimmed and washed. And if you score a perfect score, you'll get enough to buy a pint of ice cream, which is around nine dollars.

CO: OK, OK. So you get points for each part of this, right? So maybe just go through what how... how does it break down as far as my rhubarb stalk?

MA: OK, so we look at your stalk, is it washed and trimmed? And you'll get 20 points right away, 10 in each category. And then the colour and the ripeness of it is worth another 10. If you bring green stalky, not very nice rhubarb, it'll be a lower score versus a beautiful red colour. And then if you bring a lot of rhubarb, right now, you're going to get four... it's going to be each stalk divided by four. So if you bring 20 stalks or 40 stocks, we divide it by four. That makes it nice and easy to get 10. Anyways, we do this formula, and then we divide it by 100, and you get your currency sent to you by email in the form of a certificate.

CO: Why do you want all this rhubarb?

MA: Because it's rhubarb season in Ottawa for sure. I think all throughout Ontario right now. It's the only fresh fruit or vegetable we can get right now. And we're making ice cream with rhubarb for the next couple of weeks. And just a lot of people have rhubarb and they're not using it. It's in their backyard. They don't know what to do with it. Why not exchange it?

CO: I know exactly what you mean. So much rhubarb you see goes to... goes to seed, right? You just see those big shoots come out the back and you know, ugh, that's done!

MA: Yeah.

CO: You should have got that rhubarb before that happened!

MA: Yeah, for sure.

CO: How many people are bringing their rhubarb in?

MA: Last week we received about 760 stalks of rhubarb. [CO chuckles] Some people bring in 10 beautiful stalks. And then some people have brought in like 30 or 40. So it varies, but it's really a nice crop this year. People are bringing in beautiful rhubarb.

CO: Where did this idea for what you're calling the stalk exchange, where did it come from?

MA: Well, we've always exchanged... the last couple of years we've exchanged rhubarb and we've called it the rhubarb... rhubarb exchange. But this year we're having a little bit of fun with the whole currency thing, with the different currencies out there. So we came up with this idea of Rhubcoin.

CO: [chuckling] OK.

MA: Yeah.

CO: And it's obviously working.

MA: Yes, it's definitely working. Yeah, and we're making beautiful ice cream with it. We're making roasted rhubarb with strawberry and balsamic vinegar and honey. That's a beautiful flavour.

CO: Ooooo!

MA: And then we made a rhubarb cheesecake flavour last week with some of last year's supply that we had made into a rhubarb jam.

CO: I was going to say, you... you save some of it because sometimes you can blend rhubarb with other fruits for all kinds of new experiences, right?

MA: Yeah, that's right. So we… we put some away for the winter

CO: Now, you mentioned all the different ways that you can judge the rhubarb, but you didn't mention the things that I would think would also be important is that sweetness and tartness.

MA: Yes.

CO: Some people have rhubarb that is just the most perfect balance of sweet and tart. And others, sometimes it's too tart, sometimes it's, well, it’s never too sweet, I guess. [laughing]

MA: I know!

CO: There's... I mean, are you able to take a bite and find out what the level of sweet and tart it has?

MA: You know what? We didn't think of doing that. We didn't add that as criteria this year. We're going to roast it anyways and add sugar. Ice cream has a lot of sugar in it, too. But if we were making more like a crumble or things like that, I think that would be a definitely a good thing to judge it on, yeah.

CO: Do you have your own rhubarb crop?

MA: I don't have a rhubarb crop. But I... when I was a child, I always had one. But currently where I'm living, I don't have any rhubarb patches.

CO: It sounds like you need them.

MA: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. No, we need the rhubarb. We have a lot of people that want to participate in this and they don't have rhubarb patches. So we opened up a poetry competition or a contest, and people can write poetry about rhubarb. And then we're going to pick… because we're going to have it on our website. We're going to pick a winner from each category of haiku and free verse and a sonnet.

CO: [laughing] OK, when do you... when is that going... when is the rhubarb poetry contest to take place?

MA: Oh, it started this morning, and it'll be open probably for about a week. And the same with our Rhubarb stalk exchange. People ask, you know, my rhubarb is not ready yet. Are you going to be open next week? It really depends on how much we get, right? At some point, we might have to close the stalk exchange.

CO: And what are the other flavours, the non-rhubarb ice cream flavours you have at the Merry Dairy?

MA: Oh, we have so many. We have like... we make a really good salted caramel. We make cookies and cream, vanilla. We have mint chip. We have vegan flavours, vegan mint chip, hibiscus passion fruit. So we have about 100 flavours in rotation, but we pretty much, like, we go with the seasons. So right now, there's about 20 flavours on our menu.

CO: Can people bring in their other fruit, backyard fruit, or anything else that they grow in order to exchange for a pint of ice cream?

MA: Yeah, we have one other exchange that is coming up probably near the end of June or July, and that's a backyard mint exchange. And we let people bring in their fresh mint and we judge it also on criteria. And then they can put it towards purchasing a pint. So yeah, it'll be the mint exchange.

CO: How's business been?

MA: Business has been really good. During the pandemic, we've been selling pints and delivering them all across the city.

CO: But are you able to have…. because I know you're getting some nice hot weather there in Ottawa, are people able to come and get a little cup or a cone?

MA: We're not doing that yet because we're still in the lockdown. But in a couple of weeks, we definitely will be scooping again.

CO: We have to get scooping again.

MA: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And we hope to open our scoops like June 2nd is when they say this next lockdown will be over. And that's when we'll start scooping.

CO: I hope you're right.

MA: We're excited for it.

CO Good to talk to you, Marlene. Thanks.

MA: Yeah, thanks a lot. Bye-bye.

CO: Bye.

CH: That was Marlene Haley. She's the owner of the Merry Dairy. We reached her in Ottawa.

[music: ballroom]

Bakery robbery

CH: Last month, security cameras caught a man breaking into a Milwaukee bakery and making off with some dough. As in slang for money, not, you know, dough. Police were called. Statements were taken. And, though clearly visible in videos both inside and outside the bakery, the suspect slipped through their fingers -- leaving the bakery's owners feeling pretty crumby. Until it occurred to them: Sometimes solving a crime requires something more than a cookie-cutter response. And sometimes solving a crime requires exactly a cookie-cutter response. Which is when they began baking up batches of pretty little cookies decorated with crimson rosettes -- and emblazoned with actual photos of the suspect's mug. Not only did they sell a whole bunch, the cookies also helped police identify the 45-year-old white male -- who now faces charges. Because of his face. So in this case, revenge was literally sweet.

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May 18, 2021 Episode Transcript

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