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The Current Transcript for May 18, 2021

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

VOICE: There are still 50,000 doses that are set to expire by the middle of June or late June that are sitting in Ontario warehouses, and there's been some discussion that Ontario may just allow these doses to expire, I think that would be criminal.

MATT GALLOWAY: What to do with Canada's allotment of AstraZeneca vaccines? Hundreds of thousands of Canadians from the Prime Minister to your correspondent got a first dose of AstraZeneca. Now with several provincial governments putting a pause on the rollout, in part due to safety concerns. There is a push to donate those unused shots to countries that need them now. The argument for shipping vaccines out of Canada while many Canadians are still waiting for their shot, that is in 30 minutes. Also this morning, we regret to inform you that this bus route has been cancelled. In fact, all of them have been cancelled.

BOBBI DAY: I think that would be the most absurd thing I've ever heard. We need more transportation here, not less.

VOICE: It's going to be a problem. I hope there's another company that steps in, but it's going to affect a lot of people for sure.

MG: With Greyhound buses stopping operations in Canada, where are people looking for affordable transportation? To turn in an hour, the case for a national bus service from coast to coast to coast. But we begin with misinformation, disinformation and the digital fog of war in the Middle East. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. And this is The Current.

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Impact of misinformation and disinformation on Israeli-Palestinian conflict

Guests: Margaret Evans, Sheera Frenkel

MG: Sounds coming out of the Gaza Strip, the most intense conflict between Israelis and Palestinians in years has continued to escalate over the past two weeks. More than 200 Palestinians have been killed, including over 60 children. More than 1200 have been injured. 12 people, including two children, have been killed in Israel, two of them today. Margaret Evans is CBC's Europe correspondent and spent nearly a decade working in the Middle East. She is in Lod, Israel. Margaret, good morning.

MARGARET EVANS: Good morning, Matt.

MG: I know that you've just arrived there. What do you understand about the situation in Lod right now?

ME: Well, Lod is under a state of emergency and has been since last week when we saw those clashes between Arab, Palestinian, Israelis and Jewish, you know, really distressing scenes of attacks on each other, people who had, you know, at least existed relatively peacefully. So it was a real shock to the system I think for people watching, a shock to the people in the town, you know, the anger and the aggression towards neighbours. Speaking to a few people this morning, you know, you're getting the story. A lot of people that, you know, they say outside extremists came in and were provocative. But it was distressing to the point that we saw the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, saying, you know, you cannot take the law into your own hands. You can't lynch people. You know, people are being dragged out of cars based on their, you know, what people thought their religion was and people were fearful of a civil war inside Israel. And now it's very calm. I'm on a little square where there's a mosque and a synagogue and a monastery. But there are also a lot of Israeli soldiers around keeping an eye so empty but tense.

MG: We saw this past weekend Israeli rockets destroying the building that houses the Associated Press and Al Jazeera in Gaza. What more can you tell us about that? This is an incident that was seen and reacted upon around the world.

ME: Yeah, it was really quite extraordinary, you know, because it was a media building. And the Israelis tend to with the building that they're going to hit, they give a warning usually an hour before they do a couple of soft drops, you know, around before they hit it. But because, of course, it was a building full of journalists, everything was reported, this telephone call from the owner of the building to an unidentified Israeli intelligence officer, basically saying, could you please let some of the journalists go back in? We just need 10 minutes to get their computers. The answer was no. And, you know, a bit of tweeting about these are our memories. This is our life's work. You know, we're not going to get weapons. So it really went around the world. And of course, then we saw the president of the Associated Press coming out saying we're shocked. The Israelis insist that there were Hamas assets in the building, that it was a typical Hamas tactic to, you know, place its offices, people, weapons in places where there are civilian organisations. The Foreign Press Association protested and we saw the Americans said that they had seen intelligence that the Israelis said they had offered to them as yet proving that there were Hamas assets in the building. But, of course, obviously, those are our colleagues and they're working under extremely dangerous and difficult circumstances. And they've been our eyes and ears because we are not able we are not allowed to go in by the Israeli authorities at this stage. And you also have to get permission from Hamas, the Palestinian militant group in charge of the Gaza Strip.

MG: What do you understand more broadly about the overall situation in Gaza right now, more than a week into this?

ME: Well, the intensity of the Israeli bombing campaign really stepped up over the weekend. Last night there was I don't want to use the word de-escalation because there were still airstrikes going on, but there were no reported casualties last night at between about midnight and 10:00 a.m. this morning, there were no militant groups firing rockets into Israel, which is significant when you compare it to sort of the ferociousness of those barrages early on. Could mean that Hamas is running out of rockets. But it's led to a lot of speculation here that a cease fire may be on the horizon because Hamas and the other, you know, Islamic Jihad yesterday, they lost a couple of their commanders and were threatening to hit Tel Aviv. Tel Aviv from their point of view is a much more significant target than, you know, the border communities around Gaza and southern Israel. But that said, you know, rocket fire has commenced again from Gaza towards Israeli communities, but again in the south and Israeli defence missile systems have been intercepting those missiles. Of course, if we are reaching the end of the conflict and a potential cease fire, you might also see an escalation as both sides try to get their last blows in.

MG: I mean, I ask you this just finally, as somebody who has worked in the region for many years, the US president, Joe Biden, spoke with Benjamin Netanyahu yesterday, said that he expressed support but did not make a demand for that cease fire. And you just wonder what effect a new U.S. president wading into this conflict would have.

ME: Well, people are... on both sides are still very wary about Biden. The Palestinians in the lead to this conflict would tell you that this was an American government, you know, not as openly supportive as Biden's predecessor, Donald Trump, in terms of the things that he did, you know, moving the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem, supporting settlements. So they're not seeing that. But they also felt why didn't he call for a ceasefire on both sides? They thought he was trying to buy Israel time in the conflict by, you know, delaying the U.N. Security Council meeting from the Israeli side. I mean, they did have a president who was very much supportive of their point of view. I think, though, that they would be cautiously optimistic about the way in which Mr. Biden has approached this scenario. And, of course, it's, you know, the United States. Yeah, America always has a big impact on Israeli politics. The U.S. negotiator who has been here [inaudible] had meetings with the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas. But that doesn't mean anything because he doesn't have power in the Gaza Strip. The Palestinian situation has been so degraded and the political structures in the West Bank, such as they are under occupation, so eroded, you know, partly through internal problems in the Palestinian corruption, et cetera. But you've got a very fractured scene. And so it's a different world than past presidents have been presented with. And I think the challenge for the Biden administration will be recognising what is the new world, because we are seeing you know, you have a generation of Palestinians who have grown up. They don't believe in the two state solution. On the Israeli side, you have a position that has become entrenched over the years that they don't believe the Palestinians are interested in peace. And so there's a school of thought on the Israeli side that they can manage the occupation indefinitely. And I think what we've seen in recent weeks is a reminder that that is a very dangerous assumption because you're seeing these protests and the things that have been overshadowed by the Gaza conflict were the demonstrations that were growing amongst young Palestinians over issues like occupied East Jerusalem, settlement expansion. And now you're seeing this unrest inside Israel over the discrimination that many Palestinian Arab Israelis feel that they are tired of living with.

MG: Margaret. I really appreciate this and it's great to speak with you. We will speak again. In the meantime, thank you very much.

ME: Thanks so much for having me.

MG: The CBC's Margaret Evans, she is CBC's Europe correspondent and was in the city of Lod this morning. The conflict between Israel and Hamas is not just about rockets and airstrikes. It's also a propaganda war, one that both sides are engaged in. Sheera Frenkel is a tech reporter at the New York Times and has been reporting on this digital battlefield. Sheera, good morning to you.

SHEERA FRENKEL: Thank you for having me.

MG: There was a video last week posted to Twitter by a spokesperson for Israel's prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, and the video appeared to show rockets being fired from Gaza by Palestinian militants. What do we know about that video?

SF: Well, that video, which was posted by Ofir Gendelman, a spokesperson for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, had a caption attached to it. And that caption claimed, as you said, that Gaza militants were firing rockets in close proximity to apartment buildings. But if you looked up that video, if you went to YouTube or other video hosting sites, you would have found multiple versions of it. And depending on which version you looked at it claimed the video showed militants in Libya or militants in Syria firing rockets in civilian areas. And this was just one really clear example of a video from one conflict being repurposed and reassured to depict current events in Gaza.

MG: How widely shared was that video?

SF: I believe by the time it was taken down, it was shared several hundred times, liked several hundred more. But of course, as we know, each share could mean hundreds of more shares. It's quite exponential.

MG: The Israeli Defence Forces also put out a tweet saying that Israeli ground forces were battling in Gaza. And, of course, that turned out not to be true. What do we know about that tweet?

SF: That tweet has remained very controversial because it was seen by many news organisations, including NPR and I think The Washington Post as a sign that Israel had, in fact, launched a ground invasion. It took Israel several hours to correct that and say that while the ground troops were involved, they were not physically entering Gaza. But there's speculation that it was a ploy by Israel to get news organisations to write that ground troops had moved in and therefore to trick Hamas militants into coming close to the Israeli borders that Israel could more easily launch airstrikes against them. It's obviously difficult to say in the fog of war what Israel's intentions were and how journalists interpreted them. But there is, I think at this point, quite a bit of bad will on the part of journalists and the Israeli army spokesman's office and the sense that they don't necessarily trust each other at this moment.

MG: How did Israel's military explain sending out that tweet?

SF: They said at one point they said that it was a mistake made on one account. But then journalists point out that similar tweets had been put out in other accounts. Then it was blamed on a single individual who didn't have a perfect grasp of English. But again, different individuals with a very good grasp of English tweeted them and shared them on other social media. And so there hasn't been a very satisfying answer.

MG: We've mentioned Twitter a couple of times, what are the other platforms that are being used to spread misinformation or disinformation online?

SF: Well, as we were looking at this both on the Israeli and the Palestinian side, the platforms that we saw use the most were private messaging apps such as WhatsApp and Telegram in both Israeli and Palestinian communities. It's very, very common, very popular to be in WhatsApp groups with hundreds of members and Telegram groups with thousands of members in them. And because these apps are encrypted, it's hard for people who study misinformation and disinformation to see what is being discussed there. And when we entered those groups, we found dozens of cases of misinformation being shared. A lot of it seemingly just stoke fear amongst both Israelis and Palestinians.

MG: Tell me more about that. I mean, Hamas and its supporters have also put out misinformation. What can you tell us about that?

SF: Five, six days ago, we were seeing lots of messages being shared saying the Israelis are here, you know, keep your children home. Israeli soldiers have been spotted in Gaza City. Those obviously, you know, sent quite a bit of panic amongst Palestinians. There were tweets on the Israeli side saying mobs of Palestinians are coming, lock up your homes. If someone knocks on your front door, be aware that it could be a Palestinian militant in disguise. Watching the responses to that in real time, there's just real fear, real terror, I would say, on both sides of this idea that danger was lurking just around the corner. And that's one of the things that's so powerful about misinformation. When it's shared in small groups, you tend to trust it more and it can inspire sort of a real emotive response.

MG: What do we know about why it's being shared? I mean, you used the phrase the fog of war earlier.

SF: It's just that I mean, again and again, I've covered conflicts for 15, 20 years now. And in times of conflict, people grasp for information and they're likely to share things without vetting them because people are so desperate to know what's going on. And we're living in this era of social media where people can share with the click of a button, especially in these small private groups. And it's very easy to share a message that you might think to yourself, oh, I'm helping my neighbours. I'm telling them that an attack might be coming. But in fact, what you're doing is inspiring more fear.

MG: That might be the motivation for individuals when they're sharing that information. But what about the state actors, whether it's the Israeli military or Hamas?

SF: I think on both sides they're thinking about how to rally people to their cause. Both Israeli and the Palestinians have been through this so many times and we've seen them really adopt a very sophisticated PR apparatus. And part of that is spreading certain messaging amongst their own people.

MG: How does Iran factor into this? And what role has Iran played in using social media to amplify tensions between Israelis and Palestinians?

SF: Well, Iran has been one of the most aggressive disinformation actors, and we use disinformation in this case because we know Iran is spreading it purposefully in order to achieve a certain message. Again and again, we have seen Facebook take down coordinated Iranian networks that are spreading disinformation both amongst Israelis and Palestinians. Amongst the Israelis, it is often a message of do not trust your elected leaders. They pose as Israelis themselves in order to spread messaging that is along the lines of, oh, I am an Israeli government insider and I know that our own government is working against us. Our own government is not giving us covid vaccines. Our own government is sowing unrest. I mean, it's quite similar, really, to what the Russians did in the United States in the 2016 elections and in Arabic amongst Palestinians, there's quite a bit of disinformation, again, aimed at sowing distrust of their own leaders aimed at a sort of chaotic response to Israel. Israeli soldiers uprooted Palestinian orphans from their homes, just very emotive content that is meant to rile people up.

MG: Do you see a direct link between this misinformation and disinformation that's spreading online and the scenes of mob violence that we have seen on the streets?

SF: Oh, there's certainly a link, although I wouldn't attribute one to the other. I think that there are a lot of reasons for the mob violence that has unfortunately taken over many Israeli streets that until now have remained peaceful even in times of war. I think the Israeli population has seen one successive right wing government after another, including members of their own parliament, who have openly discussed the idea that Israeli citizens should rise up against Palestinian citizens of Israel. The politics in general amongst Israelis and Palestinians have become more and more extreme. And contributing to all of that is the misinformation and disinformation. I always remember a quote. This is from years ago when I was first looking at Russian disinformation here in the United States. I spoke to a disinformation expert, Renee D'Arista, who said that it only works if it's built on a kernel of truth. And I think that what's happening in Israel and in the Palestinian territories right now is a perfect example of that.

MG: We've been speaking about WhatsApp, Twitter, Facebook as well, but as an incredibly popular social media app, particularly around young people, what does TikTok add to this?

SF: Oh, TikTok is fascinating. I mean, just this morning I was looking at TikToks that were being posted by Israelis and Palestinians. And the thing about TikTok is that it's made to be shared. So a video created on TikTok is very, very quickly shared to Twitter, Facebook, WhatsApp, any really platform out there, with very little attribution and very little context. This particular video I saw this morning was from a previous Gaza war. It depicted white phosphorus shells falling within a Palestinian city in the Gaza Strip, and people were sharing it as if it was something that was happening today. Now, whether or not white phosphorus is being used by the Israeli army in Gaza today is an open question, which I don't know. But this particular video was from years ago and it had thousands of shares within I think, it was less than an hour of going up and it was quickly being shared to Facebook, to YouTube, to Twitter and other social media sites. And so the ability of TikTok, to make something go viral very, very quickly, and especially amongst younger people who may not be as keen to check and verify what they're sharing before they share it. I think that's playing a real role in what's happening in among Israelis and Palestinians right now.

MG: So what is TikTok, Twitter and the other social media sites doing to stop this misinformation being spread on the platforms?

SF: Well, you know, all the companies have become a lot more aggressive in rooting out disinformation when they find it, so the Iranian activity that I mentioned earlier, they're all really sort of searching for that and becoming effective and aggressive at taking it down. Misinformation is different when citizens choose to share factual inaccuracies with one another. There is a limited amount that the platforms can do because at a certain point it becomes, you're right, it's your freedom of speech. If you want to share something that's inaccurate, unless it's causing harm, unless it meets very, very certain criteria, the social media companies are not going to take it down. And if you're sharing it in WhatsApp and Telegram, they can't even see it to take it down.

MG: I'm going to say, I mean, in those services, I mean, which are private messaging services, what are the companies that run them, what are they up against in terms of trying to stop that kind of false information from being passed around, false information that has real life consequences?

SF: Well, they have really very few tools. WhatsApp has instituted a limit on how many times you can forward something. That being said, you can still forward things. I think the limit might be ten times. Right. But people found a way around it. Instead of forwarding something, they copy and paste it or they forward it ten times and then they include a message saying, please, everyone who sees this forwarded ten times to make sure it goes viral. Where there's a will, there's a way. And ultimately these encrypted messaging platforms are so great to use because they are safe and they are private. But that also creates a real fertile ground for spreading misinformation.

MG: Sheera. Thank you very much.

SF: Thank you for having me.

MG: It's great to talk to you. Bye

SF: Thanks. Bye

MG: Sheera Frenkel is a tech reporter with The New York Times. Your CBC News is next. And then:

VOICE: Clearly the vaccine works and as someone who has had that first dose. I want that second dose so that I can be fully vaccinated. And I don't appreciate the government making that decision for me as to whether I can get that second dose or not.

MG: Take it if you're under 65. No, wait. Take it if you're over 40, actually, never mind. Now, some provinces say you can't take AstraZeneca at all. Canada's back and forth on AstraZeneca has a whole lot of doses now sitting in provinces that have discontinued its use. What to do with those stockpiled shots, we'll discuss that in six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

Calls to donate Canada’s supply of AstraZeneca doses to low-income countries

Guests: Lily Caprani, Maxwell Smith, Dr. Zain Chagla

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, getting from point A to point B just got more difficult in Canada. Why the final departure of Greyhound from this country has some calling for a new bus service to fill the transportation gap. But first, AstraZeneca and the great second dose debate.

JOE BIDEN: We need to help fight the disease around the world to keep us safe here at home and to do the right thing of helping other people, it's the right thing to do. It's the smart thing to do. It's the strong thing to do.

MG: That's US President Joe Biden on the importance of sharing. Yesterday, he promised to donate another 20 million doses of covid vaccines abroad. On top of the 60 million doses of AstraZeneca already promised. Calls have been growing for rich countries, including Canada, to donate doses now to stop the virus from spiralling completely out of control in other countries. And that conversation has taken on new urgency here now that some Canadian provinces have stopped administering the AstraZeneca vaccine, doses are now sitting in storage and millions more are on order. Lily Caprani is a vaccine advocacy expert at UNICEF global headquarters in New York City. Lily, good morning.

LILY CAPRANI: Good morning.

MG: This commitment yesterday from U.S. President Joe Biden. How far do you think it will go to meet the need in places where covid is raging?

LC: While this commitment by President Biden is an excellent step, it's important particularly that he recognized the urgency. There's a commitment to distribute these vaccines in the next six weeks, which is very welcome because we're seeing this devastating surge of cases across India and South Asia right now, which, as the president says, it threatens all of us, whether we're, you know, sitting in New York or Toronto or Timbuktu. We should be watching this with concern for our own safety as well as others in low income countries. Because this virus doesn't respect borders. We really are in it together.

MG: Paint me a picture just briefly of that urgency. I mean, and why it would be important now for wealthy countries to step up rather than down the line in a few months.

LC: The only real pathway out of a global pandemic is to make sure that you vaccinate all of the vulnerable groups and health care workers in every country. It's simply not enough to successfully vaccinate one country that doesn't end the global pandemic. So we have got to do this as soon as possible. And we're seeing unfortunately, we've been warning for months that if you leave low income countries without access to vaccines, a tragedy will ensue. And we're seeing some of our worst fears coming true across India right now. But as I say, that also puts us all at risk. When that virus is spreading out of control, it has chances to mutate, new variants can emerge, and that threatens the recovery in every country. So it's not just a nice thing to do to donate doses. It's really, it's a smart thing to do. It's an essential thing to do for all of us. And right now, with the India crisis, we're really very short. I mean, we're falling behind by maybe 190 million doses by the end of June that we would have otherwise been able to distribute to countries like those in Africa that are running out right now, of their supplies.

MG: And so what is UNICEF looking for from Canada right now?

LC: Yes, I mean, we've looked at the bad news. The good news is that Canada and its G7 counterparts, all those richer countries, actually do have an emergency solution in their hands. When they come together in June as the G7 in the U.K., they've got an amazing opportunity to try and solve this. We've got new analysis at UNICEF that shows these countries collectively have around 153 million excess doses available to them over the course of this summer when they could both meet 100 percent of their own adult populations needs to get vaccinated and donate 20 percent of their supply. And that would go a long way to closing this big gap that we've got so that we can also vaccinate other countries.

MG: So you want those doses, those excess doses, as you call them, to be donated now, I mean, to move out sooner rather than later, not wait until the end of the year, but as soon as possible?

LC: Absolutely. It's not good enough to wait until the end of the year. The emergency is now. June, July, August. We're facing this huge supply crunch. We have not got enough doses to get them to the low income countries that need them. And the world has a lot of vaccines, not enough, but a lot. But it's currently concentrated in the hands of a few rich countries. And it just doesn't make sense when we're in a global pandemic to let that continue. So in June, we really, really are urging Canada and all of those richer countries to come forward collectively, step up and donate those excess doses, which is both good for the world and good for their own populations.

MG: Anita Anand is the minister in Canada responsible for procuring vaccines. She addressed this issue in an interview over the weekend. Take a listen to what she said.

ANITA ANAND: We have committed to donating excess doses. Our prime minister has mentioned this. I have and Minister Gould and Minister Hajdu are all on the same page in terms of the need to donate excess doses that Canadians aren't using. So we are thinking of all of the options relating to any excess doses.

MG: Are you confident that the decisions are happening quickly enough in this country?

LC: Well, look, I want to say the government of Canada and the people of Canada have been extremely positive and generous in supporting this international effort. You know, they've donated very generously to Covax, the international facility for distributing vaccines and also UNICEF's work because we're the biggest vaccinator in the world. But we do need this action now urgently committing to donating doses and signalling that intent is great. But it has to happen now in June. We need that commitment to turn into doses actually getting into the arms of health care workers in low income countries.

MG: I guess the issue in this country might be I mean, we followed up with Minister Korina Gould's office yesterday. She's the international development minister. The office said that Canada doesn't actually have any excess doses right now. Canada has less than four percent of its population fully vaccinated with two doses. There are still outbreaks raging. Could you understand why some governments might hesitate to donate doses before their own populations are taken care of?

LC: Yeah, I mean, of course, every government has a commitment to its own people, and that's fully understandable. But the analysis that UNICEF has just done, the data that we commissioned is showing the forecast across June, July and August, so just immediately this summer right ahead of us, we can see that with the supplies that are likely to come to those countries, including Canada, they'll have enough to vaccinate their own populations, 100 percent of the adults in their countries, and donate 20 percent of those supplies over June, July and August in order to help close the current gap. So, you know, the data shows that it's going to be possible to do, the evidence shows that it's essential to do. We just need those commitments to be very, very specific and urgently made.

MG: Do you think that Canada should perhaps stop vaccinating low risk populations to send those doses that could be used for people who might be at low risk in this country, abroad to populations that are at much higher risk?

LC: Well, I think Canada, like all countries, should focus number one on the priority of ending the global pandemic. And the surest pathway out of the pandemic is to make sure vulnerable populations and health care workers are vaccinated in every single country.

MG: And so if health care workers elsewhere aren't vaccinated, but we are vaccinating, you know, 12 to 16 year olds, should that should that equation be changed in this country to get those doses to those health care workers, as you say, the people who are on the front lines elsewhere who have yet to even get one shot?

LC: Yeah, and because while that's happening, what we're seeing is... look at India as an example and Nepal, next door, in some parts of Nepal, 40 percent of their health care workers are getting covid and the health care systems are collapsing. Not only is that a tragedy in that place, but that means that virus is raging across that region and mutating while it does so. And wherever you are, if you're in Toronto, you should still worry about that. That puts you and your family at risk. So in order to get out of this pandemic, we have to see this as a global problem. And countries like Canada, but not just Canada, you know, collectively, the country, the richest countries in the world, have a window of opportunity right now. They have a solution in their hands. So we absolutely urge them to donate those doses. Now, it's not the long term solution. We have to have a properly funded Covax facility and we need to manufacture more doses across the world. But right now, this is an emergency and this is an emergency stop gap that they can help solve.

MG: Before I let you go, just let me ask you briefly about AstraZeneca. There are several provinces in this country that have paused, giving the first doses of this vaccine, at least in part because of safety concerns. We know that Denmark has stopped using it completely. The United States hasn't approved AstraZeneca even for emergency use. Is it right and ethical to be asking other countries to accept a risk that we won't take ourselves?

LC: Look, the vaccines are all reviewed, as you know, by the World Health Organisation before they're approved for international distribution. And this group of experts known as SAGE. And their recommendation is that the risks associated with any of the vaccines that have been approved already and including AstraZeneca, are far outweighed by the risks of covid. And the way that we're going to contain this virus from spreading is by vaccinating populations. It's you know, we recommend it continues to be used as a safe and effective vaccine. The alternative of not vaccinating is unthinkably risky. So, you know, every country has to decide what to do for its own population. But right now, those vaccines could be saving lives.

MG: And in the meantime, I mean, they're sitting in refrigerators and freezers and there's concern that the expiry date gets closer and closer and closer. Just finally, as somebody who is involved in global advocacy, when you hear about that, what goes through your mind?

LC: I mean, me and everyone, I think we should all be... that raises alarm bells for all of us, doesn't it? We're seeing thousands of deaths still taking place. We're seeing the virus mutating and spreading, if all of us remember what has happened over the last year, surely between us, we have to be able to, as a world, come together and ensure that we curtail this pandemic and we know that there's a way out of it. The evidence is pretty clear about what we need to do. Now we just need to do it. Let's get those doses to where they're needed.

MG: Lily, great to speak with you this morning. Thank you very much.

LC: Thank you.

MG: Lily Caprani is a vaccine advocacy expert with UNICEF's global headquarters. She was in New York. It is a real balancing act between vaccination obligations here at home and the urgent calls to export doses elsewhere. Maxwell Smith is a bioethicist at Western University who serves on Ontario's covid-19 bioethics table and vaccine distribution task force. And Dr. Zain Chagla is an infectious diseases physician at St. Joseph's Health Care in Hamilton, Ontario. Good morning to you both.

BOTH: Good morning.

MG: Dr. Chagla, there are many places, as we just heard around the world, where high risk populations, including frontline health care workers, are not vaccinated. Should Canada be immunizing young, healthy people before those people elsewhere get their shot?

ZAIN CHAGLA: Yeah, [inaudible] has been calling this out too, right. Not to say that 12 to 17 year olds can't get complications of covid-19, but in the context of, you know, a global pandemic, 1.5 Million lives predicted to be lost in India and many places where without a vaccine plan, you know, India's story is going to repeat itself. You know, it does bring us pause to say, are we more concerned about getting, you know, more immunity to a population where none is actually needed? We've seen countries like Israel, for example, vaccinate their adults aggressively to their children, being incredibly protected from covid-19 from that. You know, that should be our objective, you know. Yes, get the adult population, get the economy open, getting us back to normal. But realistically, this is a global pandemic, as was noted. And if we're not going to take care of our global partners, something's going to happen, variants are going to emerge and we're going to have blood on our hands with people that died while we vaccinate our low-risk children.

MG: That's quite... that's a really strong statement. We'll have blood on our hands.

ZC: Yeah. I mean, 1.5 Million deaths in India are predicted. And, you know, Canada is not blameless in this. Right. Half a million of our AstraZeneca doses are from India. And so, you know, those doses in India right now could be saving hundreds of thousands of lives.

MG: Let alone the Johnson and Johnson vaccines that we have yet to start using.

ZC: Exactly. Right. There are lives at risk there, adults at risk, there are healthcare workers at risk. You know, and this isn't just covid, right. If health care systems collapse, this affects not only adults, it affects the global children, too, as well. That is also an incredible point here. If you have hospitals collapse, if you have routine public health care that's not being offered to children, children globally are going to suffer at the context of our children having slightly more protection against COVID-19.

MG: Maxwell Smith, what do you think? At what point should, in this vaccine campaign that Canada is involved in right now? At what point should Canada start sharing the doses that we're getting?

MAXWELL SMITH: Yeah, I think it's a true moral dilemma because we know, we've seen with our children in Canada the mental health effects that they've suffered, and so there really is an imperative to get them vaccinated. And we know that if we do that, that can really increase herd immunity and make sure that we can open schools safely. But we know that if we send those vaccines overseas, that actually might provide that sort of benefit to Canadians and even Canadian children, as well as for all the points mentioned before. So I think what we might need to do is instead of thinking about, you know, once we have completed our entire population, then we will donate those excess doses. We might want to think creatively about perhaps stretching the time that we might take to vaccinate our entire population and in the meantime, use those doses and share them with other countries so that we collectively get that vaccination done.

MG: I mean, there's an ethical element to this. There is also the practical element of distributing the doses. And you have, you know, the job of trying to thread both of those needles. How do you sell that to a population to your point here that is seeing the mental health concerns of lockdown's, of kids being home from school in some parts of the country and what have you with what, Zain and what Lily have been talking about in terms of the global picture?

MS: Yeah, I think you can appeal to things like global justice and solidarity to try to get people to understand the real need to collectively vaccinate populations in low and middle income countries. I think that might convince some, but I actually think that we can appeal also to self-interest. So even if you don't care about global justice and solidarity and really just care about what's going on in this country, there are still very good reasons to make sure that we're vaccinating those in low and middle income countries, those that haven't received back to you thus far. As mentioned, if we continue to see this virus impact these countries and new variants emerging. This really affects the health of Canadians. So our health is dependent on getting those documents done in other parts of the world.

MG: Dr. Chagla, what about the issue of AstraZeneca? I mean, there is this potentially serious yet incredibly rare issue of clotting events with AstraZeneca NACI, the National Advisory Committee on Immunisation, says that the MRNA vaccines are the preferred ones. Is it right to give away a vaccine that isn't officially preferred in our own country? And I get it that that word is loaded, but is it right to give those doses away if we don't see them as a preferred vaccine?

ZC: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, again, you have a few people that are in this weird spot of having their first dose and getting a second dose. And we need to come up with a plan for that. Whether or not it's circling back and giving them another AstraZeneca dose with informed consent or it's switching when the data comes out with that. But, you know, again, the choice of MRNA versus AstraZeneca is one thing. And we're fortunate that we have a global supply chain that that will allow us to make that decision and, you know, input MRNA vaccines into most adults by next month. But there are many places in the world where that's not even an option, right. There are many countries where 10 percent of their population has earmarked vaccines. So a single dose of AstraZeneca as compared to zero doses of vaccine is incredibly powerful. And that calculation of the risk of rare clotting reactions as compared to covid is incredibly much more favourable for benefit over risk there. So I have no issue with with offering the vaccine. We know countries like India are going to be essentially trying to vaccinate their population with AstraZeneca, like the UK, places like South Africa that are going to be using the Johnson vaccine to vaccinate their population. You know, it's again, when the decision is zero versus vaccine, vaccine will always win in that context. And again, we have to actually think about our strategy in terms of how we enhance the global strategy of of making more doses available for more people.

MG: Maxwell Smith, what is the ethical dilemma here or is there one when you're donating a vaccine to a developing country that rich ones seem to think is, again, these are very, very rare events, but that there is the impression that perhaps it's too risky to take.

MS: Yeah, I think there's a couple of points here. One is if we think that that would be wrong, because it's inequitable, because we won't be using this vaccine and so it might be seen as inferior. And so that's a reason why we don't give countries that desperately need vaccinations the vaccine. That seems to be wrong to me. These are countries that desperately need vaccines. As we heard from Lily, these are safe and effective vaccines. So I think that would be wrong to not send those vaccines where they're most needed. The other thing that's really worth highlighting is that in Canada, part of the reason we can move away from AstraZeneca just given these safety signals, is because we have an abundance of Pfizer and Moderna vaccines. That is a context I think is really important to consider here, other countries aren't in that same boat.

MG: There are Canadians who would like access to those doses of AstraZeneca. One of them is Marcus Kolga. Take a listen

MARCUS KOLGA: As someone who has had that first dose, you know, with very mild side effects. You know, I want that second dose so that I can be fully vaccinated, you know, to protect myself, to protect my family, my friends and certainly the community around me. And as an adult, as a Canadian adult, I'm able to assess the risks of doing so. And quite frankly, I think the benefits outweigh those risks. And I don't appreciate the government making that decision for me as to whether I can get that second dose or not.

MG: Maxwell Smith if Canadians who've already assumed the risk, want to take dose two of AstraZeneca, shouldn't we let them do that?

MS: I think on the one hand, it appears as if the risks of any of these adverse events after a second dose appear to be much more rare. So I think even the evidence suggests that this wouldn't be as problematic. But I do think the government does have a responsibility to protect the public's health. And so it is their job as national regulatory authority to step in when they think there is a harm to people's health, rather than simply downloading that risk benefit calculus to every individual, which are really difficult sort of decisions to make and considerations that they have to weigh. So I think there is a role for the government to step in to make sure that what they're putting out there is safe. But I think for those that have received their first dose, the evidence suggests a second dose really doesn't increase their risk, then that's something that we could perhaps use an informed consent process to make sure that they're making the most informed choice possible and getting that second dose.

MG: Dr. Chagla, you talked about informed consent. And I mean, I asked, this is somebody who got the first dose of AstraZeneca. Is there any reason not to take the second dose of AstraZeneca?

ZC: No. As long as you know your risks, you know, and what's come out of the yellow card test in the U.K. suggests it's one in a million. You know, recognising that full immunity, recognising that the, you know, mixing vaccine may not be entirely safe, although we think it will be. But, you know, it may not be the data that we would like. Yeah, I think you can make an informed decision with people about that. A shared decision. Right. And, yeah, there was a lot of people, as your caller had mentioned, that just want to get done with this. Right. Want their second dose, [inaudible], want to feel fully vaccinated, want to get on with life. It's great. You know, if we have some doses, residual sitting in fridges then offer it to those people to be done with it. The tragedy here at the end would be waiting too long, spoiling doses and then being burned by the fact that, you know, we don't have a strategy to offer people at the end, especially if the mixing vaccine doesn't work particularly well. So, you know, I think people can make that decision for sure. And again, you know, as providers and physicians, we know to have these discussions and we always have these discussions like this is part of normal practise in that sense.

MG: What would the message be, do you think, Zain, if those doses were to expire in the fridge? I mean, we're a year and a bit into this, and I think a lot of people still can't wrap their head around the fact that we could have doses that we wouldn't use of a vaccine that could stop this pandemic.

ZC: Yeah, I mean, from a global standpoint, it would be tragic. You know, I don't know how we could live with ourselves because, you know, we have places like Nigeria and Pakistan who don't have allocated doses for their health care providers that are going to look to us and say, well, you know, we preferred a vaccine so much that a dose expired or several doses expired in a fridge. You know, from a global equity standpoint, it's an incredible injustice. If we leave doses for our population to spoil as compared to putting doses into global partners.

MG: Maxwell Smith, in the last minute or so that we have as a member of the vaccine distribution task force in Ontario, how urgent is it that Ontario makes some sort of decision about this current shipment of AstraZeneca?

MS: It's incredibly urgent to Dr. Chagla's point. I think that not one dose can expire, but either need to go into the arms of Ontarians and other provinces, into the arms of Canadians, or they need to go elsewhere in the world where they will be used. A vaccine, not in arms, is just not useful. So it's incredibly urgent to get this done.

MG: Do you know when the AstraZeneca doses expire?

MS: I'm not entirely sure of the ones that just came in, but I expect that the provincial government would want to make a decision about this very shortly. I know that the timelines to getting that second dose of AstraZeneca ranges 10, 12 weeks somewhere in that period, and we're coming up upon that time. So a decision needs to be made to make sure that we can get those doses in their arms or ship them out of the country.

MG: And are you confident that that's going to happen? Again there's this urgency locally, but there's this urgency to Zain's point around the world.

MS: I think, you know, I think everyone is aware of the situation and will absolutely be pushing to get that done.

MG: It's great to speak with you both about this. Thank you very much.

BOTH: Thank you.

MG: Maxwell Smith is a bioethicist at Western University, serves on Ontario's covid-19 bioethics table and vaccine distribution taskforce. Dr. Zain Chagla is an infectious diseases physician at St. Joseph's Hospital in Hamilton, Ontario. Your thoughts on this? In a global pandemic where there are frontline workers around the world who have yet to even get a first shot, should Canada be immunising young, healthy people before those folks get their shots? Should we rethink our vaccine distribution program and perhaps, as UNICEF is suggesting, get those doses elsewhere to those frontline health care workers before we vaccinate healthy people here in this country? You can email us thecurrent@cbc.ca or reach us on Twitter @thecurrentcbc. Coming up after your regional update, transport troubles, Greyhound bus services pulling out of Canada. We'll talk about the gap that needs to be filled and how we could do that. That's coming up in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway. And this is The Current.

The demise of Greyhound Canada and the case for a national bus service

Guests: Morgan Dunbar, Kalpesh Patel, Kasper Wabinski, Terence Johnson

MG: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, you're listening to The Current. A few more wheels have fallen off Canada's public transportation system. Greyhound has announced it is cancelling all remaining service within Canada just three years after it shut down its operations in western Canada and parts of northern Ontario. For Bobbi Day of Windsor, Ontario. The news came as a surprise.

BOBBI DAY: Oh, wow. Honestly, I think that's a little ridiculous, especially from Windsor. I mean, like, we're still a big booming city. And I think the only other transportation from here would be the train. And I mean, I think that just the train, first of all, it's way more expensive. I think that would be the most absurd thing I've ever heard. We need more transportation here, not less.

MG: Like Bobbi, many Canadians are now considering they're narrowing transportation options. Kalpesh Patel works in Ottawa and lives in Montreal. Morgan Dunbar works as a graphic designer in Ottawa. She's from Blind River, Ontario. Good morning to you both.

BOTH: Morning.

MG: Kalpesh, how did you use Greyhound?

KP: I used Greyhound for 15 years to do my commute, so I started using it to go to school from Montreal to the University of Ottawa, and then eventually I started using it to go to work. So I took the commuter bus, which left Montreal at 5:30 in the morning and got me to work for 7:30 and then left Ottawa at 4 and got me home by around 6, 6:30 in the evening to be able to spend time with my family.

MG: So this is your daily commute. I mean, your family's in one city, you work in another and you took this bus every single day for 15 years.

KP: I did, yeah. I used to take it, you know, at first five days a week. And then I was taking it four days a week as I was home on Fridays. But yeah, that was just my daily routine for 15 years. So it was quite the shock at first. I thought it was just Greyhound is suspending the routes for now till things get back to a somewhat, you know, normal state. But when I saw that they've cancelled it completely and are leaving Canada, I was shocked, especially after 100 years. Right.

MG: What about for you, Morgan? I mean, you're from small town Ontario. What role does the bus service play for you?

MD: I mean, that's really it. When you're from a rural area in Canada, the bus is the only option. Like there's no trains, there's no planes that can get me home to see my family. So I've been living in Ottawa for over ten years, and the only way I can get home to see family is to get on the 10 hour Greyhound ride that brings me all the way home. So, you know, when they pulled out of northern Ontario in 2018 like that, left a huge hole for me trying to figure out how to see my family again.

MG: That's the overnight bus, is it?

MD: Yeah. So it left Ottawa at midnight and then it rolled into northern Ontario around 10 a.m.

MG: That's a long haul.

MD: It's a long haul, but it got me directly home and that was a big deal because my only other option, and it's an expensive option, is to take a quarter flight, to fly all the way to Toronto, have a big layover, then fly to Sudbury, and then I have to find someone who can drive two hours, pick me up, drive another two hours to get me home. Like that's not something that's sustainable or even an option for most people.

MG: I wouldn't think so, no. Kalpesh, so now that your commuter bus is no longer in service, what does that mean for you?

KP: I gotta figure it out. Right now, you know, we're you know, we're in that covid type situation, so there is a lot of work from moment to moment. But when things go back to normal and, you know, we'll be going back into the office, I'll need to figure it out. I mean, there are some options depending on how many times I go into work. Driving is an option when the weather's like today. However, there was a time in the middle of winter where I drove and I ended up going in the ditch because there was black ice. So it's not always a feasible option or the most safest option. There are trains and there are flights as well. But again, Greyhound, what's great about the bus service is it's a very cost effective mode of transport. And for all Canadians, right. Whether you're a student, a senior citizen or someone like myself is the commute. It doesn't just affect me. We were 30 that did this on a daily basis from Montreal to Ottawa. So, yeah, we've got to look at options. I'm hoping maybe another route or somebody else comes and takes over from Greyhound because it is a service that we do need. Buses are major, like in every major city in North America there's a bus service between cities. So I don't know what we're going to do.

MG: How much more is it for the train than the bus?

KP: My bus pass was about $560 dollars a month. The train is close to a thousand.

MG: Wow.

KP: You know, money's a huge factor, but it's also timing. Buses travel usually every hour on the hour. For the train you know, there's two trains that go to.. two or three, I think that go between Montreal and Ottawa. And it's not as easy just per say where the commuter bus would drop us off right downtown Ottawa, the train you have to get off, take another bus and it's a lot more complicated. Right.

MG: What about for you, Morgan? I mean, you mentioned that kind of trains, planes and automobiles, kind of patchwork that you would need to try to get home. What does this mean for travel plans that the bus is not going to be running?

MD: I mean, it's going to be a big deal for me, kind of looking forward to the end of the pandemic, just of being able to visit anybody like that's my access to any of my friends kind of all over Ontario. But like for me, it's inconvenient to have to try to figure this out and patchwork this together. But for people living in rural communities like that's, the bus is life or death. there's no...

MG: What do you mean life or death?

MD: So if you live in a rural community and you don't drive and you need to get to your health care appointments, you need to get to the hospital just to get a Check-Up or, you know, you have this other appointment that's coming up. Your only option is the Greyhound. Like, you don't have another way to get to a big city to get your health care appointments like health care is so important on the Greyhound route that one of the stops in Sudbury is in front of the hospital doors. Like that's how people in rural communities get access to health care is on the Greyhound. So when you take that away from them, now it's a much, much bigger issue because people don't have access to their health care.

MG: Do you think that this could be a catalyst in terms of the way small communities are served, that this could lead, Morgan, to different services being offered for people in those small rural communities?

MD: I would really love to see the government step up and want to do something and help just because serving lower income like rural communities isn't necessarily going to be a profitable service. It's a service that needs to be filled and needs to be done. A lot of communities since Greyhound left in 2018 have tried to figure out their own plans. And that goes as far as communities buying their own buses where, you know, a small town will buy an old school bus and, you know, they're going to use that just to ferry the people in their town to the nearby cities in order to kind of get to where they need to go. And that's having to kind of be self-sufficient because the government or a larger company isn't stepping in to fill the hole just yet.

MG: Kalpesh, just before I let you go, I mean, what does it say to you that the service has been cancelled? Does it say something to you about who and what we value?

KP: I mean, what it does to me is it says that we value certain modes of transport over others, we don't look at the... you know, I look at it from my perspective. And as a commuter, like I said, a bus service, which is very cost effective. It affects students, senior citizens. It affects folks running away from even such things as like an abusive relationship or, you know, trying to go see a partner in another city. It's just an easy way to get around. Buses are everywhere. Like Morgan says, they bring people to hospitals, they bring people to appointments. They get people to weddings. They bring... there's just, there's so much culture that comes with the bus service. There's a reason why buses, bus services have been around for so long in North America. Right. So for a big company like Greyhound to have to pull out, I'm not sure if there was any deals or any asks from Greyhound to the government. But like Morgan said, we do need them to step up and perhaps look at other options. It's not just a government thing. Maybe it's an industry thing as well.

MG: It's good to speak with you both about this. I wish you the best of luck in getting around in the absence of the bus. Thank you very much.

BOTH: Thank you so much.

MG: Morgan Dunbar and Kalpesh Patel, both longtime customers of Greyhound bus service. There are some busing companies trying to create something new to fill the gap left behind by Greyhound's cancelled bus routes. Kasper Wabinski is the owner and CEO of Casper Transportation. It operates primarily in northern Ontario and Manitoba. He's in Thunder Bay, Ontario. Kasper, good morning to you.

KW: Good morning, Matt. Thank you for having us.

MG: Thanks for joining us. Are you surprised when you heard that Greyhound was pulling the plug on its Canadian operations?

KW: No, the industry saw it coming and there was a high probability that this was going to happen. There's a lot of talk and rumours behind closed doors and behind the scenes about this. And we got no advance warning. But when it happens, we're like, OK, well, I guess it happened.

MG: In the absence of it still being there. You're trying to create something. What is the coast to coast bus coalition?

KW: Well, Canada is a very big country, and we recognise the weaknesses of the original system that Greyhound created, and we wanted to prevent that from happening again. But also we recognise the fact that rebuilding the Greyhound network across Canada is going to be very time consuming and very expensive. There's 1300 communities, rural, small communities that used to be connected on the Greyhound network that are not connected anymore. We came together to try to reduce that risk and accelerate the timeline on rebuilding that network by working together with other bus companies and trying to advocate to the government through the CCBC on a public private partnership.

MG: How would this work, I mean, to create this national network of bus companies? I mean, because there was one and now you're looking at disparate companies coming together. How do you stitch that all together?

KW: Well, right now we have Wilson Group out in Vancouver Island. We have Pacific Western that operates E-bus and Red Arrow. We have Thompson bus that operates from Thompson to Manitoba routes. We also have KCTI that we're talking to out in Saskatchewan, us ourselves in north western Ontario. And we have Maritime bus in the East Coast. So a big portion of the country is already being serviced, but it is a fragmented system that's not connected together very well. What we're trying to do is establish a group of people that we can focus resources on filling the gaps instead of fighting for the good profitable routes only. There's only so many profitable routes in this country. And unfortunately, right now, with the open market, the companies that choose to do those can reap all the benefits, leaving all the other rural communities stranded with no access to service and no way to finance it or subsidise it to offset that cost. If we can come together and work together as a group like we have, we can inter-run with each other. We can create a one booking system. We can create a centralised dispatch system. So the consumer would not even know that he's travelling on different bus companies across the nation. It would feel as if it was one company. But it also streamlines the ability for the government to communicate with one organisation and push their needs. The rural community municipal township feedback into the operation. We were proposing to the document that we put together for the government that we would create a national essential bus network system strategy and that would result in the creation of EBN, essential bus network, and this network would be, this organisation EBN on the government side would mandate which communities are deemed essential and which communities would receive subsidies to offset the shortfall on ticket sales so that it becomes a sustainable service in the long term.

MG: And so when you talk about a public private partnership, I mean, these are private companies like your own, but you're looking at some government involvement for funding and logistics support.

KW: It would be quite heavily involved with government. The bus issue is a national issue, not a provincial issue. Back in the 80s or it was maybe 70s, the Greyhound managed to lobby the government to work with provincial governments. We believe the government should take control back federally and the government federally should mandate equal level of service across the nation. Now, this organisation would allocate and decide how much funding is required on each specific route across the nation or sectors of it. So they would be able to say, we want a big bus, medium sized bus, small bus, how frequent it is, how many days a week, how much money they're willing to put into it. So the operators are asking the infrastructure ministry to allow these private companies to gain access to the rural infrastructure small community transit stream. There's $250 million dollars in there right now sitting ready to go.

MG: And is there a viable business in this? I mean, and one of the reasons why Greyhound pulled out, presumably, is because people... they couldn't make money. I mean, it's not a philanthropy. It's a business. So from your perspective, is there a viable business model here?

KW: Of course, I can sustain a route to three, four customers, but yes, the ticket prices may be more than they are right now without subsidies. Now, if subsidies were involved the ticket prices would be much more affordable.

MG: Just before I let you go, what's at stake if we don't have something like this? Why do we need a national intercity bus network?

KW: Well, first of all, our country is growing, so we need to keep uniting our country and make all Canadians feel included. So bus service is the most basic form of providing affordable, safe, reliable transportation. And not only that, we also have to advance the agenda of first nation economic and social reconciliation through giving these small communities, first nation communities, access to our economy...

MG: A connection.

KW: A connection. They need to be included. They need to have access to social services and partial service and be able to come in and out. And right now that's not happening. And on top of that, the only way to build a green transit on the green agenda is to use buses. Right now, aeroplanes can't be electrified at this moment.

MG: Kasper, it's great to talk to you about this. Will follow this along. Thank you very much.

KW: Thank you for your time.

MG: Kasper Wabinski is the owner and CEO of Casper Transportation, looking at setting up a national intercity bus service. Terence Johnson is the president of Transport Action Canada. It is a national advocacy group for passengers and sustainable transport. Terence, good morning to you.

TERENCE JOHNSON: Good morning, Matt. Thank you for letting me join you this morning.

MG: Thanks for being here. What do you make of this idea of different bus lines coming together from different countries to try and create a national network of bus transportation?

TJ: This is something that we are actually really pleased the industry is doing. We have, you know, over the last few years people have decried the events of the last week as being, you know, the demise of service to rural and indigenous communities across Canada and is a disaster. That disaster has actually been a rolling disaster for at least a decade as Greyhound has cut back and cut back and cut back. The final closing of the chapter, the closing of the final chapter of Greyhound is hopefully the opportunity to write a new chapter in Canadian transport history as we see this ecosystem of a lot of new companies emerge. There are so many players in this market. A bus does not have to be a Greyhound bus. And over the last year in particular, we have some of these companies that are really the unsung, unsung heroes of the pandemic, people like Kasper Wabinski, people like DRL Coachlines in Newfoundland, Mountain Man Mike through the Kootenays in B.C. and their drivers, they've kept essential services going to small communities with social distancing, and safety measures on their vehicle. So they're carrying almost no passengers, making no money. They really got no help from the government. And after a year of this, there's not much left in the tank, or the bank. And it's really time for the federal government to step up. And we'd love to see that happen to make sure that these buses are there to support the recovery in the communities.

MG: Well, we've seen the federal government spend billions of dollars supporting airlines during covid. Is that a model that you think could be used for a bus network?

TJ: I don't think that that's the model we want to see in the bus network. I mean, that was a large company bailout when you bailed out a public company. You can take back some shares, just as we did with GM after 2008. And that's what they've done with Air Canada. These are very small companies. It takes a very small amount of money to ensure they survive the next six months while we get over the last hump and get some vaccines into arms in this country. It's not a $770 million dollar deal. It's, you know. $77 if that, maybe. But we've heard in the last few days from DRL in Newfoundland, they've been running for more than a year with maybe five people on the bus that come June they're going to be out of money. If the government doesn't actually step up and say, hey, actually we care about people in Newfoundland being able to get around and we're going to make sure that this does not fail.

MG: So what do you want to hear from the federal government? I mean, we asked the transport minister, Omar Alghabra, to speak with us. We were told he wasn't available today, but his office sent a statement that reads, in part, We will work with our provincial partners to explore options to address this gap and provide Canadians with safe, reliable and affordable transportation across the country. What do you want the federal government to do?

TJ: Financially safe, reliable, affordable transportation for Canadians from coast to coast? Pretty much, exactly our motto as well. We believe a little federal leadership is required here. For the federal government to reassume stewardship of a national network because provincial letting this be delegated to the province has failed. One of the big blows to Greyhound was when STC was shut down by Scott Moe's government a few years ago. And all of that feeder and network traffic in Saskatchewan disappeared so that that revenue doesn't disappear from just STC it disappears from the long distance carriers like Greyhound. When Greyhound shut down in Western Canada, six figures disappeared from maritime buses, revenue on through tickets and through....

MG: Because it's all connected?

TJ: It's an ecosystem. It's all connected. It has to be federal right now on [inaudible] 13 and regulation on July 1st. With Greyhound gone, regulation is effectively already ended and if you want to... the companies that are testing all of those routes that want to resume service between Montreal and Ottawa, that commuter service, you need a licence from the government of Quebec to do that. So, right now Transport Quebec is holding all the cards as to whether there's a good service in eastern Ontario, whether you can actually get from Manitoba to New Brunswick with good connections. At the moment all that work has to be done by Transport Quebec. And that's really a federal responsibility. It's very interprovincial. It works as a... it's got to work as a national network. Right now, it is possible to travel by public transport from Corner Brook and Newfoundland to Hay River in Alberta. But, as Morgan was saying, you have to figure all this out yourself, you have to put this patchwork together and if something doesn't work along the way, you better have a credit card to whip out for a hotel, stay and rebook everything.

MG: Are there other countries around the world that Canada could emulate in terms of creating this sort of network?

TJ: Absolutely. Absolutely. The Swiss have this down pat. In Switzerland, you have a wonderful ecosystem of municipal Swiss federal government. Cantonal and private sector companies all work together as part of the Swiss transport travel system. You buy one ticket from A to B and you go and it is not a hassle and you will not be stranded. And that is the thing that the federal government must now recognise. It's not optional anymore. The national enquiry into missing and murdered indigenous women and girls said this in one of its call to action. But there must be a national safe transportation system. This has become a human rights issue. People are literally dying by the side of our highways because there isn't a national safe system. So it's not OK to spend the next four years talking about this with the provinces and trying to figure that out. We need leadership right now.

MG: I just, I mean, you mentioned Switzerland. Switzerland's a much smaller country. You think of Germany, you think of France. Those are, you know, well-connected countries, but they're much smaller as well. Canada is huge. I mean, there are parts of this country that aren't densely populated. Is it reasonable and realistic to expect this to work?

TJ: I think the difficulty is making sure that the things the... I think of the network as your trunks, which are rail and bus, branches, which are buses and some of the municipal buses. Leaves, which are those last mile solutions in the rural areas. So if you want to get from [inaudible] to Ottawa, maybe now it's not all one operator all the way. But from your perspective as a passenger, it needs to be. And one of the challenges we have is, for example, Ontario. Northland is a provincial agency, Caspar's private sector. There is some tension there and we need to finesse that. We need to make sure from the passenger's point of view, it works. We need to make sure from the industry's point of view, it works so that people can continue running buses. If we want to make sure that small operators can access more expensive, fully accessible vehicles. We need some measure of help from the federal government to make that happen through a leasing program, tax credits, whatever it is. And the reason I pointed to the Swiss is they've got all the pieces to work together. And that's not about geography. That's about the politics of it. And the distances are bigger, but the political challenge of getting three levels of government and the private sector. To try to put together a network from the passenger's point of view is seamless and simple and straightforward. That is the magic. That is the you know, all the other ingredients of this cake are on the table. That is the last thing you need to put into bake the cake.

MG: Terence it's great to talk to you about this. Thank you very much.

TJ: Thank you.

MG: Terence Johnson, president of Transport Action Canada National Advocacy Group for Sustainable Transport. He was in Chatham, Ontario. Your thoughts on this would be welcome in terms of what the bus has meant to your community. You can email us thecurrent@cbc.ca. That's The Current for this Tuesday. Q is up next on CBC Radio One. It is the 18th of May. And today Saskatchewan is paying tribute to a hockey hero, inspiration and a mentor to many. May 18th has been proclaimed Fred Sasakamoose day. In 1953, he became the first indigenous man with treaty status to play in the National Hockey League. Learn to skate under the eye of his grandfather, who and this is an amazing story, fashioned a willow branch for a hockey stick. As a young child, Fred suffered the horrors of residential school that did not dampen his love of the game. This is from our archives. Fred Sasakamoose sharing a moment that he found out that he was going to play in the big leagues, was just after he and his team-mates in the Western Canadian Junior Hockey League were eliminated from the playoffs.

FRED SASAKAMOOSE: They said Fred Sasakamoose, please report immediately to Chicago Blackhawks, you'll be playing in Toronto Maple Leaf Gardens Saturday in Hockey Night in canada. And then the room just went still, quiet. We looked at each other, all of us. And I said, why me? I think that was one of the greatest moments of my life to be able to reach that goal that I want, that I could be able to touch that ceiling. Now that I could touch it, I couldn't go no more. I went to the top of the world, at that moment that I made it.

MG: Kind of gives you chills listening to that Fred Sasakamoose, played 11 games in the NHL, left his mark by showing other indigenous players that they, too, could make it to the top of the world. He went on to serve as Chief of the Ahtahkakoop Cree nation in Saskatchewan, was a band counsellor there for more than 30 years and devoted the rest of his life to helping young people connect with their culture and their passion for sports. Fred Sasakamoose died in November after being hospitalised with covid-19 and because of hospital restrictions, his son Neil couldn't be at his side but spoke with his dad by phone.

NEIL: I talked to him for about 10, five or ten minutes. Then I started asking him. I said, Look are people coming around your room, Dad. And in our way, people come and get you and that's how our culture that we believe in is that friends or associates or your mother or your father, your grandma, they'll come and they'll come and get you and it's up to you to go with them. You have a bit of a choice still. And he told me, I asked him, are people coming around you? And he said, yes, yeah. There's people around me, around my bed. And I said, So, Dad, look at you're getting tired now, eh. He said, I'm tired, but I want to fight. I said, You're tired. You know what? You did lots here. You know, you fought. You did lots. That person that comes and gives you his hand now, you grab it and you go. You go and you go with that person and then you don't worry about this side anymore. And he said, OK, OK, I'm going to go to heaven, he said, I'm going to go to heaven now. And I said, OK, Dad, I'll let everyone know. And then two hours later, that was it. He fell asleep and he went away peacefully. And his battle with covid-19 ended at 2:58, actually is when he passed away.

MG: Fred Sasakamooose was 86 years old. Before he died, he was working on a memoir called Call Me Indian from the trauma of residential school to becoming the first treaty indigenous player. And that book is out this week. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. And we'll talk to you tomorrow.

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Tuesday May 18, 2021 Full Text Transcript

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