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The Current Transcript for May 10, 2021

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

NAOMI SHIHAB NYE: Save us, dear vaccine, take us seriously. We had plans, we were going places, give us our world again.

MATT GALLOWAY: You may have had similar thoughts when you got the covid vaccine, but did you put those thoughts to reverse? The Global Vaccine poem project is collecting poetic reactions to a vaccine that many of us have been desperate to get and there is no poetry experience required. We will explain all in 30 minutes. Also this morning, May Bjerre Eiby's father spent his final days in a nursing home in Denmark. It was a terrible experience.

MAY BJERRE EIBY: It was a lonely energy. Also, when somebody came into his room, it was an energy, a sort of an angry energy where they talked to him like he had done something wrong.

MG: And so after his death, my tried to change the system, creating a long term care home for seniors with dementia, where residents are treated like family and compassion is the norm. As Canada reckons with the state of long term care, she's here in an hour to offer ideas on a better way forward. But as kids clamour for a summer and wonder what school will look like in the fall, we start with their chance for a shot in the arm. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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Young people eager to get vaccinated after Health Canada approval

Guests: Estora Marshall, Anne Belanger, Dr. Jim Kellner

MG: Well, if you are 12 or older and you live in Alberta, today is a big day for you. You can now book a covid vaccine. Kids over 12 in the Northwest Territories started getting the shot last Thursday. And provinces like B.C., Saskatchewan, Quebec, Ontario and Manitoba planned to make the vaccine available soon. But with no fixed dates yet for their own appointments, many kids and their parents are wondering when their time will come. Estora Marshall is 17, she lives in a covid-19 hot spot in Toronto and works at a grocery store.

MG: Estora, good morning.

ESTORA MARSHALL: Hi there, Matt.

MG: What went through your mind when you heard that you could soon be eligible to get the covid-19 vaccine?

EM: Oh, I was extremely excited. Just I feel like working in a grocery store, you definitely see how easy it is to get the virus and knowing that, well, I can still look, I'm still very young, so I don't really have a chance of getting extremely sick, but it's still quite scary. So knowing that I would maybe be able to finally be protected and maybe appreciated for my work was very exciting.

MG: Tell me more about that. How safe do you feel working in the grocery store right now?

EM: It's definitely a sliding scale. My managers are working very hard to impose safety measures, but there's only so much you can do when you're working in such a fast paced environment. I personally work in like grocery service, so I pick people's groceries and bring it out to their car. And that's definitely a service that we've seen increased during covid. So a very kind of niche market without a global pandemic. So we've kind of had to work very quickly to upgrade the system. We haven't really had to work this fast before, so. We've been implementing other measures, such as not just facemasks, but full face coverings, plastic shields, but it's really difficult to work around those barriers.

MG: Have there been outbreaks in your store?

EM: There have been outbreaks, and obviously my managers have been doing their best to inform us, try to keep us safe. But it's still so confusing. Some people have to stay home. And even though I've been in contact with some of my co-workers who have tested positive, I'm still never 100 percent sure whether I should be fully isolating whether I should be getting tested. So there's definitely some improvements that need to be made for being informed on how close in proximity you are.

MG: And are those people who have gotten sick? I mean, are they older workers or are they teenagers like yourself?

EM: It's really a sliding scale. I would say. I've seen anywhere from age 50 plus to even I believe the youngest was 18. So, yeah, it's really hard. And my co-worker, who was 18, who caught it, she was very sick and it was very scary to see her in such a state.

MG: I was going to say, I mean, just even working there, knowing that it must be really difficult to try to figure out whether you're actually safe or not.

EM: Yeah, it is very difficult. And just still trying to get, like appreciation. It's hard to go to work when you know that you're, like, putting your life on the line sometimes and maybe they're not getting any extra pay for it.

MG: You're not getting there's not like a pay bump or anything like that?

EM: No, it was rescinded a couple of months ago.

MG: Ontario hasn't said when people like yourself will be able to get the vaccine. I mean, that it's coming. But they haven't made the declaration as to when the vaccines are going to be available to those between 12 and 18. Given what you've just said, how are you feeling about all of that uncertainty?

EM: It's definitely very confusing, I know some of my friends who are frontline workers who have fully set up appointments, they've gone through all the checkpoints just to show up there to their appointment and get completely turned away just because they were under 18. So I think Doug Ford really needs to figure out what trumps the other. Is it under 18 or a frontline worker? Because I do believe that even if we're under 18, it's a few months difference. And that few months difference, as we've seen tragically with that 13 year old girl who passed away, a few months difference could possibly mean the difference between life and death for some people.

MG: You said right off the hop that you were extremely excited to get this vaccine. Is that the sentiment of your friends as well?

EM: Yes, I've definitely... most of my... I don't think I've actually met a single teenager who is not willing to get the virus. I think we all just we just want to get back to school, back to our lives.

MG: I mean, school is the one thing, you're in grade 11. So grade 12 is a big year. It's a grad year for you. Are you hoping that getting that shot will mean that the next school year will be a bit more normal?

EM: Yes, that's that's what I'm hoping for. And just being able to go into university, I know, especially like asynchronous university sounds just so, so hard. So I'm excited to get back to normal.

MG: And you want a summer, too?

EM: Yes. Oh, that's for sure.

MG: Estora, good luck. I hope you get the shot sooner rather than later and stay safe. I appreciate you speaking with us this morning.

EM: Thank you so much, no problem.

MG: Estora Marshall is 17 years old. She works in a grocery store in Toronto. British Columbia still doesn't have a clear timeline for when youth 12 and up can get the Pfizer shot. There are hints, though, that this could start before the end of the school year. Anne Belanger would like to see that happen as soon as possible, particularly for her son, Miles. He's fifteen years old and has a complex health condition that makes him particularly vulnerable to covid.

MG: Anne, good morning to you.

ANNE BELANGER: Good morning, Matt.

MG: What went through your mind when you heard that the vaccine had been approved for kids like Miles?

AB: Oh, it was absolutely fantastic. I mean, it gave us a sense of hope and also a little bit of more protection, that he would be protected should he catch covid. So it was very great news. It's great news.

MG: Why do you want him prioritised? What is it that would put him at risk?

AB: Well, he has a disease which is called spinal muscular atrophy, and it weakens his pulmonary function. And as we all have heard with covid, it appears that, you know, pulmonary function is affected. Therefore, it is a concern for us. When he was very young, he was very sick. And again, he caught pneumonia and RSV and it was very challenging for him to fight. So we were hopeful that he would be prioritised. But so far, no, he hasn't been.

MG: So you have no idea then when he might be able to get the vaccine?

AB: No. I mean, the instruction here on the B.C. government's website is that anyone who is born in 2005, which Miles should register, who has an extremely vulnerable condition, is 15 but is going to be 16 yet born in 2005. So the confusion. There's a lot of confusion on who should register, who shouldn't register. And between 12 and 17 right now, there is sorry, 12 and 15. There's no registration process.

MG: Given the condition that he has. How risky is day to day life for him right now?

AB: It is risky. I mean, pretty much every week at his high school, we've received some notification that there's been a case. It's also challenging because these notifications come to us anywhere seven to 11 days after they find a case. So has he been in contact, has he not been in contact with anyone? At 15 we also gave him the choice to attend school or not. Of course, as parents were worried, but everything has been taken away from him, you know, social life, interaction, having a sense of normalcy, engagement in school. And, you know, we worry about his mental health as well to be able to engage and to have somewhat of a normal life. So it's a double edged sword. Do we not send him to school? Do we keep him at home? So it is challenging.

MG: And for you, I mean, trying to navigate that, given all of the, you know, the additional stress of a pandemic at the best of times, what's that been like for you?

AB: Oh, it is challenging. I mean, as parents who all of us, I think, feel a certain amount of anxiety, of uncertainty, you know, with our own situation. I just got my shot last Tuesday. I felt like it was never coming. We worry about the school year. We worry about his mental health. We worry about his health. How will he fair and what will it be for the summer for next year? So there's definitely a high level of anxiety and how this will unfold and when will he get vaccinated. Right now, we're just, we're like sitting ducks. We're just waiting with no timelines whatsoever. And between the age of 12 and 15 thus far, there's no vulnerable list, vulnerable priorities.

MG: So what do you want to see happen now?

AB: It's [pause, sigh]. Very good question. It would be nice if we had a sense of the direction of how this will unfold. B.C. Think had tons of struggles on how to roll out the vaccine, it's been extremely confusing. There seem to be different goalposts every week, depending on different outbreaks, which is understandable. But that alone is unnerving. So having a sense of a direction, especially for people with vulnerable conditions, you know, especially in youth as well, from the 12 to 15, I would really like to see this unfold very shortly and have a sense of direction when we can get this done to have some sense of normalcy in our lives.

MG: At the very least, a sense of clarity as to when this is actually going to happen?

AB: Indeed, yes.

MG: Anne it's good to talk to you. And I hope things work out as soon as possible for you and for Miles. Thanks so much.

AB: You're very welcome.

MG: Anne Belanger, lives in New Westminster, British Columbia. Thus far, about 38 percent of Canadians have received one dose of the vaccine. Just shy of 3 percent of people have had both doses in this country. To reach herd immunity researchers say that 60 to 70 percent of the population needs to be vaccinated. And the belief is that vaccinating kids could help reach that goal. Dr. Jim Kellner is a paediatric infectious disease specialist with Alberta Health Services and the University of Calgary. He's also part of the federal covid-19 Immunity Task Force.

MG: Doctor, good morning to you.

JIM KELLNER: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Why, from your perspective, not just as a paediatrician, but as somebody who's part of that immunity task force, why is it important to get kids vaccinated now?

JK: Well, I think just to briefly see the context, you know, at the time right now is that vaccine supply is dramatically increasing in Canada. And, you know, we can anticipate that Canada will soon have more than enough vaccine doses for all those who want it here and be in a position to share our excess doses of vaccines. And so in that context, where we now have had approval of one of the vaccines that the Pfizer vaccine for children age 12 to 15, we have the opportunity to introduce vaccines for teens and preteens safely. And this is starting to roll out. And I think that there's really three reasons to consider vaccinating children. Briefly for personal protection we heard from Ms. Belanger talking about her son, who has an important underlying medical condition. We heard from, you mentioned you spoke to a young woman, Estora, who is a front line worker. There are lots of good reasons to want to provide personal protection to children, even though children for sure are much less likely to have severe outcomes. Second is to keep them in schools, there's been so many... wherever there is gatherings, particularly in schools. There's been so many outbreaks in Alberta where the schools have closed now, for now again, we have over 400 active outbreaks. 400 schools with active outbreaks, and that keeps a lot of kids out of school, even if they're not sick. And that is this contribution to herd immunity. And will we reach it? Is that 60 to 70 percent that you just mentioned, is that sufficient or with the variance or we're going to have to look at some are estimating as high as 80 or more percent of persons have to be in our society, have to be immunised to reach that herd immunity.

MG: I guess you could just imagine there are a number of people who only had that one dose of the vaccine and they might be saying, why are we focussing on younger people instead of ensuring that the second dose is given to more adults?

JK: And that's a very important part of it. And, you know, I can only speak for the place I know best, which is the province of Alberta where I live and here the introduction of the vaccine starting today for bookings for 12 to 15 year old children. We had for a few weeks the program in place for high risk 12 to 15 year old children when a small number got vaccinated through that. It's in this context that the supply is dramatically increasing and that we will continue to be able to move towards vaccinating those at highest risk on the basis of age. And that in addition to that, I don't think if we were still in a place of really restrained vaccine supply like we were in January and February, that it would be feasible to think of implementing a vaccine now for children just because it's been approved. But now at this time, it's very different and it's a dynamic world of how things are. But the vaccine supply really is increasing significantly and will take another bump up in the month of May and June across the country.

MG: Let me just ask you one further question about risk. Dr. Stephen Obaro is a paediatric infectious disease specialist at the Nebraska Medical Centre and published a piece recently in The Lancet suggesting that we shouldn't be relying on children to get to herd immunity. Take a listen to this.

STEPHEN OBARO: If there cannot be a strong justification for children contributing significantly to disease transmission, then I think the argument becomes more ethically difficult to justify if it's going to be of very little direct benefit to them in preventing disease. And you are trying to vaccinate them solely because you think they are contributing to disease transmission in the community.

MG: Doctor, do the health risks of covid for young people, for children justify vaccination at this point?

JK: In my view, they do. But, you know, as with everything through this pandemic, people who make dogmatic statements one way or the other to say yes, absolutely or no, absolutely not. You know, you can't know for sure that Dr. Obaro brings up the important points of how much does it protect children, and then about transmission. I think the issue of transmission is it remains arguable that because there is data from all over the place showing that children are just as likely to get infected. You know, in Alberta, we've had over forty seven thousand children have been covid-19 positive with testing. We've tested a lot of people in Alberta from the start, higher than most other places anywhere. And, you know, twenty four percent of the population is under the age of 20 in Alberta. And that population makes up twenty two percent of the cases that have been diagnosed. And children and young adults can get infected and they can transmit. And so I think. That one can't be too strong. I'm not disagreeing with what Dr. Obaro's concern is, but I think that the evidence to suggest that children are not involved in the chain of transmission meaningfully is in contrast. There's a lot of evidence suggesting that children are very much involved in the chain of transmission. And if you test a lot, as we have in Alberta, you see it a lot in children.

MG: What do we know about the long or short term effects of this vaccine on children?

JK: So as with the [inaudible] share of the vaccines for adults, for the short term effects we have information that came out from Health Canada about approval of the Pfizer vaccine, there's follow up for two months and for children. And that's what we had when the vaccines were licenced for adults as well was two months of follow up. And this is predicated on the on the perspective that the vast majority of adverse events that are going to occur after you've given vaccine, any vaccine at any time to anybody will occur within the first six weeks. The effects may linger, but the actual adverse effects will become apparent within the first six weeks. So the you know, the rigour to test the vaccine in children was just as much as it was with testing in adults. Now, what we don't have is data on very large numbers. And so we know about the short term, common and uncommon adverse events, whether there's going to be any very rare events that could come up in children uniquely apart from how it has been in adults. We simply won't know until a vaccine has been administered to a lot of people. I should say, though, in the United States, just briefly, in the United States, where the vaccine, the pfizer vaccine’s been licensed for 16 and above. There have been over two million, 16, 17 year olds who have been immunised and there haven't been any reports of any unusual or are very rare safety events in that age group. Now, that's not all the way down to 12, but immunologically there's not much difference between a 12 year old and a 16 or 17 year old

MG: Just in the last minute and a half or so that we have. If provinces are going to do this. Let's talk about the how, what is the best way to get the vaccine to those young people? People have been talking about schools, for example. Are schools the best way to deliver this vaccine?

JK: Schools may be the best way. I mean, you know, across Canada, there are school based vaccines provided as booster or new doses in elementary and junior high school. And so that appeals as a way to do it because we have a system of providing the vaccines and schools. But all provinces have also dramatically ramped up availability of vaccines in the community through public health clinics, especially these large rapid mass clinics where many doses are being provided, as well as pharmacies in the community. So I expect that it's going to be, as it has been with adults, a combination of places you can get the vaccine. Some of that can be provided in schools and especially for doing it into, you know, into next fall as the start of the new school year that'll make perfect sense to provide some or most of the vaccines, the schools in the meantime, now all provinces are set up. And this is the other thing is that the number of doses being given and actually delivered is very large. And so I think it should be straightforward to fit children into those settings as well in the immediate term.

MG: And just very briefly, I mean, do you see this as a way to get schools back to normal by the fall?

JK: Yes, absolutely. It's part of the equation of vaccination and then keeping an eye on little fires as they come up, outbreaks and with testing as necessary. And the more that are vaccinated, the better it's going to be in schools.

MG: Dr. Kellner, really appreciate your time this morning. Thank you very much.

JK: Thank you.

MG: Dr. Jim Kellner, paediatric infectious disease specialist with Alberta Health Services and the University of Calgary. He is also part of the federal covid-19 Immunity Task Force. Your CBC News is coming up next. And then, have you tried your hand at a covid couplet, perhaps a pandemic pentameter vaccine volter, may be more your thing. In six minutes, we will dive into the world of pandemic poetry. I'm Matt Galloway you're listening to The Current CBC Radio One.

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Global Vaccine Poem asks people to write stanzas to their COVID-19 shot

Guests: David Hassler, Laura Wood

MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, we head to Denmark to hear how people there are rethinking how to care for seniors with dementia. But first, pandemic poetry.

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MG: For Canadians who have received at least one shot of a covid vaccine, it is an experience they probably won't soon forget. Social media is awash with jubilant vaccine selfies, but some people have gone even further in their revelry.

MEG FREER: Dear vaccine, let us make music again, jazz it up with our friends on stage and off, feel our hearts beat as one in a choir or a band help us enjoy the shadow of breath once more.

BECCA BOUCHARD: It's the movie ticket, the driver's licence, it's the later weekend curfew. It's the Sunday brunch, the flower bunch and the tickle scrunch.

MIANDA MALLINSON: Dear vaccine, we miss being able to touch, to hug, to hold the co-worker we love. The child we are proud of. The stranger having a bad day.

MG: Those were Meg Freer of Kingston, Ontario, Becca Bouchard in Calgary and Miranda Mallinson in Vancouver with their odes to the covid vaccine. They are part of a project called the Global Vaccine Poem designed to get people around the world to sonnetize. I think that's the word sonnetize their feelings about the shot. David Hassler is director of the Wick Poetry Centre at Kent State University and one of the people behind the global vaccine poem.

MG: David, good morning.

DAVID HASSLER: Good morning.

MG: Tell me how this works. I mean, we heard a couple of examples there, but how is this initiative working to get people to write a poem about getting a vaccine?

DH: Sure. We've built... my colleague, Tyler Meyer, the executive director at the University of Arizona Poetry Centre, reached out to me to collaborate and with a design firm each and every... we built this very accessible and fun interactive platform online, the Globalvaccinepoem.com, that invites people to follow one of four very simple prompts and then to read a model poem by Naomi Shihab Nye, the Young People's Poet Laureate appointed by the Poetry Foundation, and then to share their voice to an online gallery. We've received nearly fourteen hundred contributions on this gallery now from people from all over the world.

MG: And what specifically are people meant to write about?

DH: Well, this is a moment of intense emotion, shared profound global experience. And we turn to poetry at times for a birth, a death, for marriage, from first moments in our lives that are big moments of intense emotion. And this is certainly one of them. And so we're asking people to reflect on what the vaccine means to them. And in a way, it humanises this experience and creates a shared common ground for us all to connect with one another at a time when we've been so physically distant. This creates a kind of emotional connection with each other across language, across countries, across any kind of barrier. What's fascinating, when you read through the contributions on the gallery page is you find all these different angles and nuances and ways in which people are giving voice and expressing themselves, sometimes very tactically about the feeling of the shot in the arm. Other times they're releasing what might be really deep pent up emotion from this year of this pandemic.

MG: You mentioned the prompts. I mean, for people who might be coming into this thinking, well, I couldn't possibly write a poem, you have these four different prompts that will help them get started. What are the prompts?

DH: So the prompts are very simply beginning with the beautiful and fun phrase: Dear vaccine, which Naomi Shihab Nye began writing this model poem when I first reached out to her on a Zoom call before we were finished, she started writing lines and began with the phrase, Dear vaccine, save us, take us seriously. When you read through her model poem, each stanza, each of the four stanzas points to the prompt: Dear vaccine is the first prompt or the second stanza: we liked. You know, remembering nostalgically what we were able to do before the pandemic and now we have new appreciation for it. The third prompt begins: it's the, meaning come up with an image for that prick in the arm or what that vaccine means to you. And then finally, the fourth prompt is: vaccine please. What do you hope and wish to deliver us from this, The times that we've been suffering together. Partly what we're excited about is that it kind of democratises voice and poetry itself. It says, look, we all have that birthright to play with language and to be intentional about pausing, taking that time to give meaning in our expressions. And it's that simple.

MG: So this is what it sounds like when you take those prompts and put them together. This is Naomi Shihab Nye reading some of that model poem.

NAOMI SHIHAB NYE: Save us, dear vaccine, take us seriously. We had plans, we were going places, children in kindergarten, so many voices in chorus, give us our world again. Tiny, gleaming vials enter our cities and towns, shining your light, restore us to each other.

MG: David, have you had a number of people who have submitted poems who... I mean, you talked about, you know, the democratisation of language, people who have submitted poems who perhaps would not consider themselves writers of poetry?

DH: Oh, absolutely. Anecdotally I've talked to some people who have contributed, in fact, and have learnt that. So I love how Naomi calls this a positive contagion. [laughter] You know, that we like to think that perhaps the global vaccine poem project will spread more quickly than the variants of the virus itself. There's been so much talk about how people have turned to poetry websites like the Academy of American Poets Poetry Foundation, our own website, the University of Arizona Poetry Centre website. There's been a huge uptick in visitors looking for poems because they're looking for meaning. They're looking for a way to clarify the complexity of their emotions. Well, this is a way in which we don't just look outward for those poems we look inward. We all become published poets once we've participated on this website.

MG: What did you call it? A positive contagion. That positive contagion has infected some Canadians as well. One of them is Laura Wood, who lives in Owen Sound, Ontario.

MG: Laura, good morning to you.

LAURA WOOD: Good morning.

MG: Why did you decide that you wanted to write a poem for this global vaccine poem project?

LW: Well, first of all, thanks for having me on. I connected with the poet Naomi Shihab through some work we're doing together for a group called Owen Sound Waste Watchers for a local environmental group. And Naomi mentioned this project during our zoom call and said, we'd like some people from outside of the states and to pass it on, you know, that point of view. So I am not a poet. I was listening to what David said and I had my hand up. That's me. I come from a long line of letter writers though. So the dear vaccine made it very easy for me to write down my thoughts. I say,

MG: I was going to say, what kind of leap did you need to make from writing letters to writing poetry?

LW: I actually didn't make a leap. I just wrote a letter because I always have found the idea of writing a poem a little intimidating. So I kind of turned it on its ear and said, it's a letter. And then I found that I was putting nuances into the letter that I wouldn't put into a normal letter. So that was kind of fun.

MG: What did you find intimidating about writing poetry?

LW: I'm not quite sure. I think maybe it was the way it was taught in school and it was always a project that you needed to do. But actually working with Naomi, she makes it so easy to start writing. And when you start writing, it does sort of turn into poetry as opposed to sitting down and saying, today, I'm going to write a poem.

MG: Let's hear what you cooked up. This is your poem about the vaccine.

LW: Dear vaccine, today, your online portal surprised me with the message, book your appointment now, a wave of relief passed through my body, followed by this thought maybe I can hold my new grandbaby, Wyatt, again soon. I've been waiting around the edge of the vaccine dance floor for quite a while. Arm's aching for the chance to hold him. Thank you for asking me to dance.

MG: I love that idea of the vaccine dance floor. And I mean, I think everybody, you know, the high school dance where you stand around the edge and you wait for somebody to come and ask you to dance. It's such a familiar idea.

LW: Exactly. Exactly. And also hoping and a little bit about the way that we need to hear about how to book your vaccine. It's kind of confusing. And actually, because we were in Owen Sound and we were a little bit older, but not that old, we didn't expect that we would be getting a vaccine. We don't have as many cases as other parts of Canada. But one day I just thought, I'm going to go online and see what it's like for when I get the message that we can book. And it was actually on the exact day that they opened it up for folks 60 plus.

MG: You had no idea that it was that day?

LW: No idea.

MG: Fantastic

LW: So I went online on my iPad and it was like, oh, it's saying we have it available. So I took the iPad downstairs. I got my husband's health card number. We booked him. He's a little bit older than I am. And then and then I booked mine and we got it on the same day in a local town.

MG: What was the experience? I mean, again, I was saying earlier that people have been snapping vaccine selfies and people have had this range of emotions when they get a needle, which is not something normally that you would have. But given the year that we've had, there's a lot that's wrapped up in this. What was it like to get the shot?

LW: Well, it was interesting because right after that phone call or right after when we booked, I went for a walk and I just felt like I was on cloud nine and I felt like dancing. And that's where that poem came from, because a couple of days later I wrote it. So then close to a month later, when we went down to Hanover and got it, it was in a large auditorium. Lines went through quickly, very organised, didn't feel the shot at all, got in our car and drove away. And it was less of a euphoric feeling to get the shot than to actually know we were going to get the shock. And then the next day I was walking again. And I must admit, I felt differently. I felt. Quiet happiness, but then I was kind of sad because I thought, why do I have this shot when there are people living in other places that there's higher numbers and we have children? We have a daughter who lives with our grandson in downtown Toronto. We have a son who lives downtown Montreal. Why don't they have their shot? So Matt, I just wanted to let you know that this morning our daughter got online and she got her shot booked for May the 11th. So now I mean, yeah, I'm on cloud nine again.

MG: And are you thinking... that's fantastic. Are you also looking ahead, you mentioned Wyatt, your grandson. I mean, are you... is that the kind of thing that getting the shot allows you to think ahead to?

LW: Oh yeah, of course, every day, you know, because once you get the shot and they have the shot, we feel that we can safely see each other. They don't need to worry about us. We don't need to worry about them.

MG: David, what do you make of what Laura has done with the emotion that she is describing in the way that she has channelled it into a poem?

DH: Well, I love how she talks about the dance floor, because I think that that playful dancing is what we can do with language. And it sounds like she let that sort of crop up into her own pause and reflection, a play, a kind of heightened play with language. I love that, you know, we don't have to think of it... so many people are kind of recovering maybe from how poetry might have been taught in school. But at root, as Li-Young Lee, a Chinese American poet says it's simply the inner voice of one person speaking to the inner voice of another. When I read your poem on our gallery page, Laura, I loved it. And I thought of my, you know, shuffling my feet on the edge of my seventh grade sock hop waiting for Mrs. Wilson to come and teach me for the first time ever how to do that before I had the nerve to ask Annette Henry to dance with me. You know, it brought back a memory for me and it made sense. It gave some clarity to that feeling.

MG: How do we strip some of the intimidation away from this? I mean, to your point, maybe it's the way that it was taught. Maybe it's just that people think that poetry is something different than everything else that they read and they get freaked out by it. How do we go about removing that intimidation factor, David?

DH: Well, once you just allow yourself, give yourself permission to read Naomi's model poem, you feel the convivial voice of someone speaking to you in a way that makes sense but somehow feels different. And then if you allow yourself to click, share your voice on the website, you get a simple prompt instruction. And all of a sudden before you know it, you may be writing yourself.

MG: I mean, the other part of this to your point is, is that in this moment where things seem to be moving really quickly and really slowly, a lot of us are turning to poetry to slow ourselves down. I mean, I'm reading Derek Walcott and Mary Oliver and going back to some of the things that I love because it gives me kind of a grounding in a moment where it feels like everything is changing, kind of second by second. Are you really finding that people are turning to poetry in ways that perhaps they haven't before to explain the moment that we're in?

DH: I really have. And I think, as I've mentioned, just the analytics of people visiting poetry websites, huge increase. But I also, in talking with people, we have experienced this pause in our life and poetry gives shape to that pause with language. The word stanza from Italian means a small room, often a waiting room in a train station. So we like to think of poems as offering us that moment of pause or a little pocket of time to slow down and reflect on our lives through language. And it's nourishing to slow down. Mary Oliver talks about that all the time. Attention is a form of prayer. Attention is. Giving attention to something is a form of poetry.

MG: You mentioned that this is I mean, by the very nature of its title, a global project. And we know we've talked about it a lot on this program that we are not all in the same boat. We might be in the same seas. But when it comes to vaccinations, for example, some of us are far ahead. And Laura was hinting at this as well, than others. And some of us have the access to vaccines that people still around the world could only dream about. I'll ask you about it, Laura, in a moment. But, David, for you, I mean, how are you hoping that this will allow us to reflect on the global experience of the vaccination?

DH: Well, I think that's an incredibly important point. And the vaccine, the inequalities for access and the range of hesitancy around the globe and certainly within our countries. You know, I think people often describe poetry as a universal language beyond the mechanics of translation and grammar. It ultimately is giving voice to a shared deep human experience. If in any way this project can harness our own shared global experience to meet the science and public health policy, to address this global health pandemic, that would be very rewarding. A lot of what we're trying to do is to help with the messaging and the awareness of the science of the vaccine. And a lot of public policy needs to address the inequalities around the world.

MG: And, Laura, this is something that you've been thinking about as well. I mean, you mentioned just locally what's going on in terms of family. But this is a global issue for you as well.

LW: It is a global issue. I have family members in the States as well. I have family members, family members in India. And through this pandemic, I had one family member who was stuck in Iran for about 14 months. And so we would spend a lot of time on WhatsApp talking and I'd hear about what was happening with the pandemic in various places. I have another friend in Cornwall, England, and finally another one in Australia. For me, Iran and India were difficult, one because there was a family member, because the border was closed who was there and she was finally able to leave and return to India. And then, of course, the India situation has taken off. India is a heartbreak for me. I have visited small villages and I am so concerned for those people. There's just no way that that the vaccine can be distributed as quickly there as it can be here. So we are so lucky, but it is a global pandemic. And it is interesting. I'm starting to see some poems coming from India on this site. So that's interesting to hear voices on this site.

MG: David, just finally, when we get out of this, at some point in time, hopefully sooner rather than later, what do you want this project to do? I mean, where will it live? What will happen with these poems once the pandemic is done?

DH: Well, I think the work of healing continues long beyond the curing of the virus. And I imagine that we're building a living archive of very honest human responses around the world to this shared trauma. I would love to see, inviting poet laureates or artists and communities to build community poems and create visual installations, drawing from the voices on the gallery website, I envision an educational component all next year, fall and spring when kids are being vaccinated, and in particular, the middle school and high school age students, in my observation, are really suffering. And I think the mental health issues around dealing with this pandemic are going to be very real and more and more felt in our communities. I would love to see a way in which this project expands and creates lesson plans and ways for schools and kids to connect with each other digitally and to work through a lot of the stress and complexity of their feelings.

MG: Laura, just two final quick questions for you. One is now you're a published poet, so do you have more poetry waiting to be unleashed?

LW: Well, we do, actually, because Naomi also likes to pick up trash. And so our Owen Sound Waste Watchers does that, so actually, in July, this has inspired us. We're going to have an opportunity for the followers of our group to post letters and probably do... maybe David, do the same format where we give people prompts...

DH: Oh, absolutely.

LW: And they can put it in a comment section. So this has been quite inspiring. It just seems so freeing. So, yes, in July I'll be writing and I've actually already started writing a letter about one particular piece of trash.

MG: Excellent. There's also the matter of Wyatt. And do you have any sense... I mean you haven't actually seen him in person yet?

LW: I have seen him in person.

MG: Oh, you have.

LW: Very rarely because the lockdown's have been off and on and off and on, and we always quarantine and that sort of thing. But yes, now it's freeing. So we will be back in Toronto on a regular basis visiting him.

MG: That's worth writing, perhaps a poem about as well.

LW: It is for sure.

MG: We will turn this over to our listeners. I can imagine that there will be many, many submissions that come after this conversation. In the meantime, this is a really neat project and it's great to hear from you both. Thank you very much.

BOTH: Thank you.

MG: Laura Wood lives in Owen Sound, Ontario, and is a contributor to the global vaccine poem, David Hassler, one of the project leaders and director of the Wick Poetry Centre at Kent State University. So do you think you have a vaccine verse of your own? Send it to us. You can get a reminder of the four poetry prompts that David was talking about on our website at CBC.ca/TheCurrent. And then write your verse and send it to us. Email Thecurrent@cbc.ca. Tweet us @TheCurrentCBC and of course, submit your poems to the global vaccine poem as well at globalvaccinepoem.com.

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway. If I said the word Norks, what goes through your mind if you were to guess naturally occurring retirement communities? Well, I would be impressed if you have never heard of a NORK, you are not alone. These are buildings like apartments or condos, sometimes even entire neighbourhoods that, while not purposely built for seniors, have over time become home to a high number of seniors. And now during this pandemic, more attention is being paid to these communities, especially when it comes to vaccine rollouts. Tomorrow on The Current, you will hear more about these communities and how they are being targeted for vaccine outreach. The Current visited a NORK building in Toronto. We spoke with Krista Balthandani, who is 86 and said she'd never heard of a NORK, even though her building is a designated one. She told us why it's important for her to stay in her home and what would help keep her comfortable.

KRISTA BALTHANDANI: I love my home and I wouldn't like to go anywhere else. I suffer from the arthritis and I like to, you know, after some time I will not be able to maintain the place anymore. It's already a little difficult, you know. So to stay in my home, I really need help to maintain the place and keep it clean and liveable.

MG: That's Krista, tomorrow, we'll have more on Canada's naturally occurring retirement communities and what they can teach us about caring for our seniors. But first, after your regional update, we head to Denmark, where a care home is offering a compassionate way of caring for those with dementia. It is a fascinating story. You'll hear it in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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Inside Dagmarsminde, a Danish care home with a compassion-based approach to dementia support

Guest: May Bjerre Eiby

MG: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, you're listening to The Current, a small care home just north of Copenhagen that looks after seniors with dementia has received a lot of attention. But it's not for the typical headlines that we've been hearing about long term care. This home takes an alternative approach, one that is rooted in compassion, minimal medication and creating a sense of community through hugs, nature, cake and cocktails. The home is called Dagmarsminde, and it is featured in the documentary. It's Not Over Yet. May Bjerre Eiby is the founder of the Care Home and she joins me now.

MG: May, good morning.

MAY BJERRE EIBY: Good morning.

MG: If I were to walk through the doors of the home that you created, describe what I would see just to give us a bit of a virtual tour.

MAY BJERRE EIBY: You would come into a home, you would feel like you come into a home with normal furniture, old furniture and very, very cosy atmosphere. Very nice sound level and light, and you would probably smell some food, some cake or some nice food, and you would be listening to calm music in the background. So that would be how it is. And there would be some people sitting in the living room and taking you in, saying welcome to you.

MG: That does not sound, I think, to most people, like a typical nursing home.

MAY BJERRE EIBY: No, not at all, and that was actually why I made it like this from the beginning, because I was quite sad and tired about this institutional environment that we all know from nursing homes. So I tried to make the opposite and to turn it into a home.

MG: That comes out of personal experience. Tell me the story of your father.

MAY BJERRE EIBY: Yes, he had dementia, and after some years, he had to move into a nursing home, a big nursing home, and he was actually put in, you could almost say in a corner of his own room and he would sit there and wait all day long for someone to visit him, someone to come in to talk with him. But no, no one did, actually. And maybe they came in to give him a tray, a plastic tray with some food and without helping him to eat it. And he didn't know actually how to eat the food. So that was how it was every day for him. And no one really knew him and no one really knew his name or who he was and what his humour was like and what his interests was like. So day by day, he lost his spark, you could say, of life.

MG: And you say that he died of neglect.

MAY BJERRE EIBY: Yes, you could say that. Definitely. Yes.

MG: That's awful to think about.

MAY BJERRE EIBY: Yes.

MG: One of the things that you talk about in the home that he was in was a negative energy. Can you describe what that energy was and how that was something that you did not want to see in other long-term care homes?

MAY BJERRE EIBY: Yes, it was a lonely energy. And it was also when somebody came into his room, it was an energy, sort of an angry energy where they talked to him like he had done something wrong against the staff as if he wasn't welcome there, as it wasn't his home and that he should behave. That's the best way to describe the energy that he should behave like they wanted to.

MG: You're a trained nurse and you have worked in traditional long term care homes. What was it about that awful experience with your father that led you to create this home? I mean, take me through the steps of thinking we need to be able to do better.

MAY BJERRE EIBY: It was a combination between being a daughter to him and a nurse in the system, in the public health system in Denmark and at that time, I had been working with elderly people for many years. And this wasn't new for me to see this with my father. But it just affected me in another manner. And that combination between the personal, the emotional effect on me and the professional affect on me made me believe that I could create and build a normal home for elderly people, a care home and a home with compassion. That's why we call it compassionate treatment. So I sort of began to create my ideas while taking care of him also. And at the side having my job as a nurse.

MG: What does that compassionate care, compassionate treatment look like? I mean, describe the kind of care that the residents get.

MAY BJERRE EIBY: It is a care when when they move in, they should feel from the first minute they feel like they are very, very special and that we have been waiting for them for a long time and that we are prepared for them as persons in our community. And in almost a minute, there's only 12 residents. So it is kind of you see it, it looks a little bit like a family. And when they move in, they would feel that they are a new member of this family and that we are prepared, that we know something about them. We know something about their story, their life story. We know who the person is and so on. And we just try to receive them like a normal person and not like a sick person, not like a person with dementia, but just talk to them normally and try to show them the place that it's their place and especially for them. And from that day, you just continue in that way and you get to know them better, of course. And you know how the details they want, how do they want the days to be? And so it's kind of natural for us, because if you do it from the first day, then you can just continue and you can just do it better and better and better every day.

MG: You said something a moment ago that it's as though when they're dropped off, when they arrive, that you've been waiting for them. What do you mean by that?

MAY BJERRE EIBY: That we are prepared. We have been talking to the families many, many times on the telephone, because normally it's not the residents that we talk to because they have severe dementia. So that is not so easy to do. But we talk with the family and we know things about them and we present them also for the other residents. We make a [inaudible] or you could say a tradition in the living room where we say, well, this is Torquil, for instance, that he has come here to live here with his wife and he's a pharmacist. And you could tell a little bit about them and what he can do for the community and what we can expect for them. Also the other residents. So the other residents, they also want to really welcome them and to take them in and to begin to talk with them and so on. So they kind of feel like they are part of us now. They're part of the family now.

MG: It's a very emotional moment. I want to play a little clip from the film that kind of captures that.

[Sound Clip: Clip from "It Is Not Over Yet".]

MG: What is she telling you?

MAY BJERRE EIBY: She's telling us that she has been, it has been a very stressful life for her for some time when her mother was in another nursing home and that this is a relief for her to come in to Dagmarsminde finally and that she... maybe she can leave some of this stress now when she leaves the house. And she also says that maybe... I think she's a little bit... She says maybe it's not so different than other places. This place where my mother was and my co-worker, she says no and probably wasn't. So it's also about agreeing with the family about, we know where you come from and now things are going to change from today. Everything's going to change.

MG: How do you believe traditional long term care or nursing homes are failing those residents with dementia?

MAY BJERRE EIBY: I think primarily they are failing them by looking at these human beings, as sick people, this stigmatise people, alienates people or how can you explain it? Like they're not part of the society anymore? Like they're a part of a social relation anymore in the society. And I think that's the worst thing we do, that we look at them like they are not anything worth anymore. And it's maybe because they lose a lot of the abilities of doing things by themselves. But that's because we look at every people like everyone should be independent and it's like we can't take if someone is dependent. But we have to understand that elderly people and elderly people, especially with dementia, they are really dependent on us. And that's how we have to deal with it and also have to look up to the duty we have to take care of these human beings and that they are equal to us, actually.

MG: And in that, I mean, you see, I mean, the care, the tenderness that you and your staff offer. I mean, there's a lot of touch and contact and hugs. And I'm wondering why is that important specifically for those residents?

MAY BJERRE EIBY: Because they have to feel that we received them, that we love them, they have to feel that we still love them, that there's someone that loves them still and that they are everything worth to us like our co-workers and our own family is. And they really have to feel included in that community. And they feel that when you touch them and you feel that when you talk normally to them and it's like in one minute they get back to also being normal again. So if you receive them in a normal manner, they all always begin to act more normal again.

MG: Give me an example of that. I mean, for people who might be trying to wrap their heads around that.

MAY BJERRE EIBY: You can actually see that in the scene where the married couple, they move into Dagmaesminde we had heard that the woman that she couldn't speak anymore and she would rarely walk. She would use her wheelchair. But when she got out of the car and go out to the parking space and we received them like their royalty's and she just stands up and she gets proud and she begins to walk. And then she says, I think she says, what a nice place you got here or something like that. And we got surprised because she was speaking and she was walking. But that's what happens to them when you receive them like this and treat them like normal, equal people.

MG: I mentioned earlier that you have chosen to use the least amount of medication possible in the home. Why is that?

MAY BJERRE EIBY: That is actually because this medicine that they take normally, it's it has a lot of side effects. And if you want to work properly with people with dementia, you have to get to be able to stimulate them so that they can regain abilities again and it gets confusing if they feel side effects all the time. And you have to work with this census and the census, they are affected by these side effects. So it's actually to clean the possibility to receive input in whatever you do with them, to speak with them or do the activities, exercises and whatever we do during our program. So they have to be sort of, you could say clean. And also it's because when you think about the ethical aspect about that, they are actually in the last part of their life and maybe they have one year left, maybe some months, maybe two years, if they're lucky. So these two years should be in a time where they're not affected with too many side effects and we don't take all medicines away, but we take what is possible to take away.

MG: Why do you think traditional, I say traditional homes, in long term care facilities would use more medication for those patients and those residents?

MAY BJERRE EIBY: That's because actually we have a culture for giving a lot of medication. It's a medicine culture the healthcare sector is placed on. And that is why I try to talk about care all the time and compassion all the time to make people believe that that is also a tool, you don't only have your medicine as a tool. So it's in our culture to use the medicine and also to believe in what the doctor says all the time, but more, and more it gets modern also in Scandinavia and also in other countries for doctors to work with us to reduce medicine, because they also have seen what you can do with it and actually the people, they get better. They get the spark back in their eyes, they get emotional and physically they get better. And so that's yeah, it's actually good for the system also to remove medicine.

MG: What happens and we see this in the film as people are sitting around a table, what happens if somebody gets violent? Because we know that occasionally people with dementia can react violently to certain situations. So how do you deal with those outbursts?

MAY BJERRE EIBY: If you know that you can only work with your hands, your eyes and your compassion and care, you have to be aware all the time what happens in the room. And you are really focussed on that in your work. So we look around all the time. We feel the atmosphere. And if we see one of the... normally it's the men, if we see a man getting a little bit frustrated in his eyes, something is happening with his face. We're there before it happens to try to talk to him. Not about that but, hey, should you want to go a little bit outside with me? or would you like another cup of coffee? Because normally when they get aggressive or distressed, it's because they feel emptiness inside. Something is, they get anxiety suddenly, and you have to stop that by trying to speak with them and tell them I'm here for you, not saying I'm here for you like this, this is psychiatric something. But just try to show them, now we're talking here and now we do another thing and then you can actually stop that every time, almost every time it happens. It's rarely, rarely that it happens here in my place and we never use sedatives.

MG: Can I ask you, you mentioned that many of the residents, this is the end of their life. How do you handle death in the home?

MAY BJERRE EIBY: We see the signs some weeks before because they begin not to want their food and maybe they eat in a different way and drink in a different way. We begin to talk a lot about this also with the families. And in the last part of this process, they have to lie in the bed all the time. And in that process, we are there all the time at the room. There's a nurse on the room all the time. So we just take care of them all the time so that they don't have any pain and that they are not with anxiety or distress and be there all the time and also try to communicate a lot with the relatives about how is it like to be in this room and how should you act and what should you do and not do and what is happening now and why does he has this respiration and so on. So really trying to be informative with the family all the time, saying the things maybe five times the same thing you say, because the families, they are in a crisis. So they also forget things all the time. So then the resident is in his or her bed and we do everything to give the resident a calm and nice sleep in the last time. And we actually also use medicine in this process. We do.

MG: And then, after their death, I mean, there is a ceremony, a celebration with the other residents. Tell me about that.

MAY BJERRE EIBY: Yes, we want to to honour the residents when they move out, you could say. So, we take the coffin out in the living room and we sing, the family, they choose the song or the resident chooses a song before dying that we know this is a favourite song and we all sing that song. And then we take a little wine, a little port wine and say goodbye. And then all the residents, they follow the coffin out to the car and we wave goodbye and then the residence, they are not there anymore. And maybe the day after two or three days after, there's a new resident moving in. So it's a circular way of working you could say.

MG: One of the things that has come out of the pandemic that we're living through, particularly in this country, is a real focus on long term care and the failings of long term care. And in many ways, people point to those failings and they say that this is about money, that we as a society do not value the care of our elders. And so we don't spend the money that that care requires to improve the level of care. You could assume that the kind of care you're offering would cost more than other homes. Is that the case?

MAY BJERRE EIBY: No, our economy is the same as in the public system in Denmark. But I think it's really sometimes, it's a bit dangerous to talk too much about money when you talk about care, because many of these things that we do is free. Actually, they are free. It doesn't cost you anything. It's just to have another mindset in your work. And of course, maybe we use our money in another way. Maybe we use a little bit more money with staffing then you would do in another nursing home. Maybe you would use a lot of money on leaders or courses or something like that, but we use it on the stuffing. Then maybe that's the difference also. But many of the things that we do doesn't cost more money than you could use in other things.

MG: So if that's the case, why don't you think more places use the model that you have?

MAY BJERRE EIBY: I think actually first of all, there's not a culture for it, it's really it's like our culture in the care sector is more or less industrial than human. But it's also because we maybe focus a little bit too much about the staff, about the staff's feeling, about the staff's physical condition, about the staff's breaks and so on. And maybe it has turned too much on the staff the way we focus on the work. So if you try to make it, see it in another way and focus more about the resident, then automatically you would have another culture. I think that actually it sounds easy and it is easy if you just want to do it.

MG: As I mentioned, I mean, we're in the midst of this reckoning in this country around how we care for elders. What do you think we should be thinking about? I mean, as we try to make things better and improve a system that seems to be failing so many people, what could we be doing better?

MAY BJERRE EIBY: We could, at first we could try to look at the system and don't fear it. We really fear this work. We fear that work with elderly people because we say it's difficult and it's hard and it's... and we get really emotional about it when we talk about it. And almost we don't want to work in this system and we don't want to educate ourselves to this system because we fear it too much, because we only talk about the negative part of the work. And also, I think we make sort of a narrative that is negative. So the first thing we should remove is the fear to the system, and that is in every part of the system. Also, one thing I talk about with medicine is also remove the fear of removing medicine and so on. So it's the fear. It's about the fear.

MG: And then what? I mean, can you take this model and can you scale it up? And this is a small home. Can you turn it... apply what you've done in a larger format, do you think?

MAY BJERRE EIBY: Of course, it's more difficult because it's... everything is more difficult when it gets larger, but but you can do that because you can maybe you can divide some of the big places into smaller, smaller areas and make smaller areas also independent of the other areas. And you could try to look at more at this family model, you could say, also in the big nursing homes. So there's a lot to do. And also many of the things that sometimes is difficult is when you have to furnish a whole new nursing home with institutional furniture, furnishings and so on, you could try to make the staff select the furniture with the residence and so on. So try to take the staff in to also try to create new culture. And it doesn't have to look like my care home. It could be another culture, but it's just being aware that we can actually together create another culture.

MG: Let me ask you just two final things. One is... cake. There's a lot of cake that is consumed in your home, and it seems like a small thing, but the residents look forward to this. What is serving a slice of tiramisu giving to your residents?

MAY BJERRE EIBY: Physically, it's because one of the last senses you lose is the taste of sweet things when you have problems with dementia. But it is, you tell them by giving them cake and the smell of the sweet things to tell them something sweet also. It's very symbolic, and everyone likes to get served something sweet and the cake and they get happy by it. And also it's something you are together about. You are in this community. When you eat a cake, you do it together. And you talk about it, and it's easy also to create a happy situation with the cake. So and it's natural. It's so natural to work with it. Also to prepare the cake to make the stuff really and get into it and maybe look for some better recipes. And when they look for a better recipe, they actually maybe without knowing, but they actually look for what could I do better today for my resident. So there's a lot to say about the cake.

MG: And just finally, I mean, part of this is just a larger philosophical change in how we think about our elders. There's a scene at the end of the film in which people are sitting around a campfire and one of the residences is reminiscing about time as a scout and saying, well, that was a long time ago and that's over now. And somebody says, well, no, it's not over yet. I mean, what does that say about how we think about people who are towards the end of their life?

MAY BJERRE EIBY: I think it says that we should learn more from them about being in the present, because that's what they are in the present all the time. And I think it gives me hope and it gives people hope for life and the hope for being in the present. So that's what it tells me.

MG: I'm really glad to have had the chance to talk about your work. It's fascinating. May, thank you very much.

MAY BJERRE EIBY: Thank you.

MG: Take care.

MAY BJERRE EIBY: You too.

MG: May Bjerre Eiby is the founder of Dagmarsminde. It is a care home in Denmark for seniors with dementia. And the documentary that takes a look at the work in her home is called It's Not Over Yet. That is The Current for this Monday. Coming up next on CBC Radio One, and it's Q. Tom Power speaking with John Legend. He has won an Emmy, a Grammy, an Oscar and a Tony, International pop star involved in social activism and much, much more. John Legend, coming up in just a few moments on CBC Radio One, I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. We'll talk again tomorrow.

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