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The Current Transcript for May 5, 2021

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: NACI is not overstating the facts. All our vaccines are good vaccines. The reality is that MRNA vaccines are better vaccines.

VOICE 2: If a vaccine is approved by Public Health Canada, take that shot, ignore NACI or anti maskers, ignore the people undermining faith in science.

MATT GALLOWAY: The best vaccine is the first vaccine you can get. Canadians have been told for months. What then to make of advice from the National Advisory Committee on Immunisation this week that Pfizer and Moderna products are their preferred vaccines. And what does that mean for those who don't have the luxury of waiting and choosing. In an hour, sorting out the confusing, frustrating vaccine guidance. Also this morning or in Ethiopia's Tigray region continues. Millions have fled for refugee camps and some observers are calling what is unfolding a genocide coming up with those who have been forced out want from the international community, including Canada. Plus, Bruce, Mãe has stretched the definition of design with high profile projects ranging from big companies and rebranding Guatemala to being asked to redesign Islam's holiest site. It is a long way from his roots in northern Ontario.

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And if you had met me at the well, instead, you know, first pay attention because you might have to design Mecca. I would have said that it's not very likely, but that is what happened. And every day is a life of adventure.

MG: In 30 minutes, why Bruce Moul believes life is either accidental or by design. We start, though, in Alberta with covid cases soaring, new restrictions coming and frustrations mounting. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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Alberta protests against COVID measures a 'slap in the face' to health-care workers: doctor

Guests: Melanee Thomas, Thimothy Caulfield, Dr. Gabriel Fabreau

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Governments must not impair people's rights or their livelihoods unless it is absolutely necessary to save lives and in this case, to prevent disaster from unfolding in our hospitals. Unfortunately, that is the situation that we are facing today.

MG: Last night, Premier Jason Kenney announced stricter lockdown measures for Alberta. This in response to the province earning a dubious distinction this week. Its per capita covid case count was higher than in any other province or state in North America, as record numbers of Albertans are testing positive for covid and filling intensive care beds. Several hundred people said they were celebrating their freedom at an anti lockdown rodeo this past weekend, and others have rallied against masks, vaccines and restrictions.

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We will not tolerate those who endanger the health of their fellow Albertans while the vast majority of people are doing the right thing. There's one simple message. If you can stay home, please stay home at least over the next three weeks.

MG: Dr. Gabriel Fabreau has been working on the front lines against covid. He's an internist in Calgary. Doctor, good morning.

DR. GABRIEL FABREAU: Good morning.

MG: What do you make of the new restrictions announced by your Premier yesterday?

DR. GABRIEL FABREAU: Well, I think many of us in the health care community are relieved. We were worried that there would not be restrictions. I think we're equally frustrated that they come as late as they do. And I was on call on Sunday night on the covid units in my hospital at the [unintelliglbe], which is in an area similar to the Peel region of Toronto. And it's very, very busy. People are coming in very sick. They're much younger than they were. Our IC is very full. I sent multiple people to the ICU that night. And so no matter what happens now, we know there's a lag. So it'll be another two weeks of increasing hospitalisations. And we worry about the sustainability of that.

MG: When you're working in that hospital and you're seeing the strain as you've just described. What do you make of the anti-lock down rodeo and the protests that are unfolding at the same time?

DR. GABRIEL FABREAU: It's really difficult, I think a lot of health care workers are frustrated. We know that that that there's a, you know, a significant probability that that event is going to become a super spreader event and that those people, or people that attended rallies such as that will become our patients. And, you know, when everyone's working as hard as they are, it's a bit of a slap in the face. When we are, we're doing everything we can to save every life we can, including people that you know, anybody and everyone, irrespective of their beliefs. But that's just adding to the burden. And I think what's unknown and perhaps we don't do a good enough job of describing what it's like inside the hospitals. But, you know, there's a lot of moral injury, there's a lot of trauma, there's a lot of suffering that we've witnessed at far greater rates than we're used to. And so sending three people to the ICU on Sunday night and having to speak to three separate families, having to run a call with a family on FaceTime, you know,and keeping people in the ward as long as we can and then at the last moment send them to the ICU. And knowing that all of that is preventable with better adherence to public health measures earlier. But, you know, it it hurts. I mean, it's as simple as that. It hurts to watch constantly. It's it's tough. It's very tough. Do you know

MG: if you've had any people in your hospital who have been part of those rallies or demonstrations or have said, you know, they don't want to wear a mask or that they've denied the existence of covid, you say yes.

DR. GABRIEL FABREAU: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I had a patient. And we've been into this for 14 months now. But I had a patient in January or February and the December and the second wave was an antimasker, obfuscated symptoms came into the hospital for an elective surgery, obfuscated symptoms, check in and exposed 20 or 30 health care workers, the entire operating rooms that the surgeon, everybody. And then and then postoperatively, I was on the phone with his surgeon myself, the pulmonologist, intensive care, multiple physicians and nurses. We worked really, really hard to save that person's life and keep them off the ventilator for fear of the complications due to a big and fresh surgery. We did all of those things and fortunately, they did very well. But, you know, there's no small part of resentment from the health care workers when that happens. And and it's tough. Yeah. It's not helpful in our current situation.

MG: You mentioned the region that you serve. And we did a whole special programme yesterday on Peel Region and the essential workers who can't work from home. They're working in factories. They're working in meat processing plants. We know that a number of the covid outbreaks in Alberta right now are in the province's oil sands camps, also at the Cargill meatpacking plant. What needs to be done to stop the spread in those workplaces?

DR. GABRIEL FABREAU: Yeah, there is I mean, every major urban centre in Canada seems to be in the same place, I think covid has shown very unflattering light on on very large structural inequities we have in our society. I've been leading a large teacher funded study on the meat plant outbreaks, and I've been involved in the bee outbreaks for 14 months now in Alberta and in my region. It's exactly that. And that's what I saw on Sunday night. It's racialise workers. It's low income working class families. It's newcomer's. It's people that are grocery store workers, Uber drivers, manufacturing plants, Amazon warehouses, meat plants, et cetera, that have no choice. They have to go to work on much like Ontario. They don't have sick pay. And so they're barely hanging on or they're working to support their families. And then the threat of two weeks of isolation or quarantine means not paying their rent or not being able to feed their families. And I've had multiple patients, you know, look you in the eye and say, hey, doc, what am I supposed to do? How am I supposed to feed my children? And they look at us like we're insane when we ask them, incredulously, they say your workmates would take a tunnel and go to work. And they said, well, what do you what do you want us to do?

MG: So are the mass vaccination clinics that you're part of. I mean, that the Cargill plant, are those going to help?

DR. GABRIEL FABREAU: Yeah, that's one bright, bright, shining star for us, and I've been fortunate to work with a group that we've co-lead, you know, argued, presented scientific data, argued for the case. And as of yesterday, we delivered twenty four hundred and eighty eight vaccines. And in something like forty seven hours of clinics across three plague's, we have another one tomorrow. And we did approximately over 80 percent of the workforce that Cardale within a day and a half, which was wonderful. And that's exactly the type of, you know, the science would that the science that we have would would argue for targeting our vaccine supply in ways like this to reduce transmission and save lives.

MG: I'm going to let you go in just a second. But just I mean, before I do that, there's a lot of anger in your province. There are a lot of cases and there's a lot of frustration. I can hear it in your voice as well. The exhaustion. What do you want to hear from from your premier and from public health officials next?

DR. GABRIEL FABREAU: Well, we know that scolding, anger and fear don't work. We know that, you know, in behavioural psychology, that only gets you behaviour change for a short period of time. But what we need to hear and what the message needs to be is that we are all in this together and that community members that get infected are we're all connected and that hope is on the horizon. The summertime, if we want to have a summer time, which, you know, we all know is sacred in Canada, that we just we just need to buckle down. I mean, this is a country full of really tough people that can do it. I mean, use whatever hockey metaphor we need to, but we're in overtime and we just we just need to do this together to protect everybody and we'll get through it.

MG: Doctor, take care of yourself. And I appreciate speaking with you this morning.

DR. GABRIEL FABREAU: Likewise. Thanks very much.

MG: Dr. Gabriel Fabreau, an internist at the Peter Law Centre in Calgary and an assistant professor in the O'Brien Institute for Public Health at the University of Calgary. Melanee Thomas is a political scientist at the University of Calgary. Timothy Caulfield is Canada Research Chair in Health Law and Policy at the University of Alberta. They have both been listening in. Good morning to you both.

TIMOTHY CAULFIELD: Good morning.

MELANEE THOMAS: Good morning.

MG: Timothy Caulfield, what are you thinking as you watch what's unfolding in your province right now?

TIMOTHY CAULFIELD: Well, it's tremendously it's tremendously frustrating. And I think the E.R. doc did, you know, just a fantastic job of mapping out what's happening, happening and the consequences of what what is going on. You know, as someone who studies misinformation, I know this is a big part of the story. You know, those that are not following the restrictions and those that are, you know, protesting against the restrictions are clearly embracing misinformation. And it's misinformation that now has sort of this ideological ideological valence. The other interesting thing, of course, is I think this is increasingly becoming a story of ideology. Research tells us that, unfortunately, Alberta is is the most hesitant province when you talk about vaccines and 28 percent vs. I think 16 percent nationwide. Some research suggests that the province that's most likely to share misinformation. And I also think we're very frustrated. We're a very frustrated province. And there's research, very recent research that shows that, you know, being frustrated, feeling distress, of feeling untrustworthy towards your government means you're more likely to embrace misinformation and all of that, all of that. And that makes it much more difficult to tackle, to tackle the pandemic from a policy perspective.

MG: So, Melanie, then the premier steps up and speaks last night. What do you make of the messaging that he offered last night in the midst of a crisis that is, as you just heard from the doctor, incredibly alarming to so many people?

MELANEE THOMAS: So for me, while I am heartened to see that we have restrictions that seem to be at least pointed in the appropriate direction for the context that we've got, the thing that I find really striking is that the premier has consistently tried to take a quote unquote, moderate position that that doesn't exist. And it seems to be between and he said it last night, between jurisdictions that have moved quickly and sharply and pursue something that looks like covid zero. And instead, even last night, he's saying, you know, we chose a different path. We wanted to be more open to preserve livelihoods, to preserve freedoms. There is peer reviewed research that shows that the best way to preserve health outcomes, economic outcomes and civil liberties is something like covid zero. So things that are implemented quickly and sharply and like keep the virus like at a minimum rather than this perpetual like it feels like in Alberta that we're on a pot that's on a low simmer that repeatedly boils over and that we're just like, OK with that, like that. It's in my mind, it's the best analogy that we've got. And the premiere last night seems very much still committed to that idea that waiting so long to put these public health measures in place is still the best approach, which I am sceptical. It doesn't match my read of the science that I've seen. But it also strikes me as one where there is even though like last night as well, he said on Facebook Live that the folks who are participating in rodeos that are fully engaged in conspiratorial thinking, that don't want to comply with any public health records, he's saying, well, these I don't want them to be part of my base.

MG: He called them tin hat conspiracy theorists.

MELANEE THOMAS: Yeah, and the thing is, saying it that way doesn't help much. But also it is pretty clear that that is part of the base, though, because there are several backbench government MLAs that have signed an open letter saying, you know, a nice version of much of the same thing that we're seeing coming from folks who are attending those kinds of rodeos. So true for me. I look at this and it looks like it's the positioning that he's taking, the language that's being used, the timelines. They strike me as much more about political goals and maintaining internal party unity than they are about acting on advice from public health experts and epidemiologists to actually get it under control.

MG: Timothy, you said something interesting earlier just about how unique this is in some ways in Alberta, what's going on in the province that would lead to this dynamic?

TIMOTHY CAULFIELD: Well, you know, I do think it is to a large degree an ideological and ideological story. So we have you know, we are the most conservative province. And if you look in other at other countries, the United States, for example, you know that ideology matters. and so, for example, in the United States, by far, by far, the Republicans are the most hesitant cohort of individuals. When you're talking when you're talking about vaccines. In the United States, you have this tremendously polarised discourse. In Canada, we don't have the same degree of polarisation, but we still see that if you look at the surveys, you know that that story plays out in Canada, too. And another really interesting dimension to this, Matt, is, you know, recent research has talked about the degree to which the rhetoric from the United States on social media, in right wing media plays in in the in Canada. And, of course, it plays more to those who have that sort of ideological leaning. That means, you know, Alberta. So, you know, I think that is a big part of the story. And I totally agree with with Melanie. The other part of the equation is how the government has handled this. It has been, you know, I like to say chaotic. I think that's the kind way to to phrase it. And it runs counter to the evidence that we have. Look, I totally appreciate it's very hard to study this well, but the evidence that we have, as Melanee suggested, aiming for eradication, the jurisdictions that have done that have performed better, both from a health perspective, but also from an economic perspective than those who have thought mitigation. And I just think that that confused patchwork approach to policy has frustrated Albertans. And again, that's added to the situation that we have right now.

MG: Melanee, what are you going to be watching for? Because as you said, he's facing protests from within his own party. There are events like the rodeo and then the chief of police in Calgary saying the province has asked the police not to clog up the courts by writing too many tickets for people who are breaking covid rules. And then the premier, again, comes out last night and says that there are higher fines, but it's unclear as to whether those fines would be levied or not. So given that dynamic and what the premier is is facing in terms of what's happening in the hospitals, what are you going to be watching for?

MELANEE THOMAS: So I will be watching with some trepidation to see whether or not we at the policy plan is much the same as it was before, where there's a much clearer plan for opening than there is for moving towards greater restrictions. And so for me, it was striking that for months Albertans have known how we move from stage zero to stage one to stage two to stage three opening because opening is clearly the goal. Whereas on Monday, when the premier says we've got new restrictions coming, he's also pretty candid, saying we don't know what they are suggesting, that there isn't a corresponding set of plans for how to, like, actually mitigate the virus once it's fully on an exponential curve and out of control, which means that there's also certainly not a plan for eradication. So, I mean, I'll be looking to see just how quickly we open up again, because that suggests more of the same. And like whatever lessons that needed to be learnt in the earlier parts of the pandemic still haven't been learnt. And to be honest, that accused the same kind of ideological thinking, because I think that's the kind of thinking that's driving government policy here, which is unfortunate.

MG: Timothy, just in the last minute and a bit that we have, I mean, you talked about polarisation at some point in time. He said hopefully sooner rather than later, this pandemic will end. What are the long term impacts of what you're seeing right now in your province?

TIMOTHY CAULFIELD: Yeah, I think we are going to see further polarised discourse, unfortunately, as a result. I think that's going to be one of the legacies of the pandemic in our province and really across Canada, you know, which is really unfortunate, you know, because I love the message that we heard again from the E.R. physician. We're in this together. This should really be drawing us together as a community because that's how we're going to get how that's how we're going to get through this.

MG: But does anybody believe that anymore, that we're all in this together?

TIMOTHY CAULFIELD: You know what? They don't. So I know I would have I want to back up if you if you believe the research. Most Canadians and most Albertans are on side with these restrictions. We have become more polarised. If you believe the research since the start of the pandemic. For sure, you know, early days, we very much were in it together, but we have we have become more polarised still. Let's always remember most Canadians, most Canadians support vaccination support. These lockdown's want to get through this together.

MG: Melanee, just very briefly, do believe that there's a long term effect of this?

MELANEE THOMAS: Yeah, I worry about the long term effects of social cohesion, certainly. But it's also not lost in two things are not lost on me. One is that polarisation in general is the first tool that this particular premier reaches for in his toolbox. And the other thing I would point out is that we have known for decades that to get people to engage in the kinds of behaviours that support public goods like public health, that most people are like the idea that it that we're in this together, it resonates with them. But some people need a much more individually based motivation, which is fine, like nobody's good or bad based on whether or not they're collective or individualist. But what that means is that enforcement needed to be pristine from the outset. And so when the premier says Alberta has got a compliance problem, it's true. But enforcement breeds compliance. And our failure to do that means that we're in this mess because we got the policy response wrong from the from the get go.

MG: Great to speak with you both about this. Thank you very much.

MELANEE THOMAS: Thank you.

TIMOTHY CAULFIELD: Thank you.

MG: Timothy Caulfield, Canada Research Chair in Health Law and Policy at the University of Alberta. Melanie Thomas, professor of political science at the University of Calgary. Coming up a little bit later on, we're going to sift through some of the latest messaging around vaccine safety. If you're concerned and confused, you're not alone. The CBC News is next. And then.

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You have to inspire change. You can't mandate it. The only way to actually ship them is to show them a better future.

MG: He's the man who got Coca-Cola to get serious about recycling. Bruce Mãe joins us to talk about Sudbury and sustainability in six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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Design could help us solve the world's biggest problems, says Canadian innovator

Guest: Bruce Mau

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, Fizer, Moderna, AstraZeneca, Johnson and Johnson, MRNA, one shot, two shots, we will cut through the confusion of the latest vaccine recommendations. But first, let's meet the Canadian man who wants to design the future. Even if you don't know his name, you've probably seen his work. He has worked for top brands like Coca-Cola, nations like Denmark and Guatemala. The book he published, which with the Dutch architect Rem Koolhaas called Small, medium, large, extra large, influenced an entire generation of architects and graphic designers. But Bruce Mau wants design to be more than just clean lines and crisp fonts.

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In our time, when we are now seven and a half billion, everything matters. We can no longer leave it to chance. And when we do leave it to chance, when we fail to design, we design for failure. The only way we will confront the greatest challenges in human history is by designing the solutions that we need.

MG: That's from Now, a new documentary about the Canadian designer's life and career. And Bruce Mãe joins me from Chicago. Bruce, good morning.

BRUCE MAU: Good morning. How are you?

MG: I'm well. It's nice to see you.

MG: Good to see you.

MG: When we fail to design, we design for failure. Tell me where that statement comes from.

BRUCE MAU: Well, it really comes from, you know, 30 years, maybe more years of practise, really confronting some of the thorniest challenges that we face. And and what we see is that around the world where we've failed to design our ecologies, failed to design the the life that sustains us. We destroyed it. We destroyed the but the colleges that we rely on and what you see all over the world is that we are going back and recovering, redesigning those very colleges that we destroyed in the last few hundred years.

MG: So where do you see that failure the most? I mean, if you take a look at it, where is it most acutely seen right now?

MG: I mean, practically everything we do is still done in the old way. It's still done as if we have unlimited resources and as if we are the centre of the universe. So we still think of human centred design as the kind of pinnacle of design practise. And when you look around, you realise it's not about us. It's actually about our ecosystem and it's about us as part of a living system. It's about understanding our place in the universe in a new way. And everywhere I look, I see degraded systems, degraded ecologies, degraded life, waste and pollution. So those things are really designed outcomes. We have to remember that we decided to do it. We designed garbage. And we said that was OK and it probably was OK for most of our history, but now that we're a billion people, it's it's not OK. And so everything has to be redesigned. I mean, practically everything.

MG: When did you start to think about being a designer out?

BRUCE MAU: You know, I grew up on a farm outside of outside of Subruy in northern Ontario. And there wasn't a lot of talk about time. So it wasn't until I went to college, really, and I went to art school in Toronto was the first time I went to a city. And it really blew my mind. And, you know, I failed. I failed college. I got kicked out of Ontario College of Art. But I actually, you know, looking back, I realised I didn't really fail. I, I just did it more quickly.

MG: That's a good spin.

BRUCE MAU: Yeah. And actually, you know, I thought I failed for the longest time. I mean, mostly because they told me I failed, but also because I felt like that. But looking back, I realised it blew my mind. I learn a new language, I joined a new tribe and I got a job doing what I love, which turns out to be what college is supposed to do. I just did it quickly.

MG: Let me ask you about Sudbury. I mean, you grew up, you said in a farm, it's like at the end of the road. And after your place is is the bush. What was what was life like up there?

BRUCE MAU: It was great in certain ways and, you know, for the longest time, I thought I had kind of two lives, like I thought I had a farm life and then I had a city life. And I didn't I didn't see how the farm life in any way inform the city life know. Growing up there was important to what I do. But looking back, I realised eventually that it was mostly unregulated. In other words, we did whatever we had to. So if you need a barn, you built the barn, you needed electrical work done. You did it. You know, if you needed something, you have to figure out how to do it. You know, there were no leagues or, you know, there there's nothing. You wanted a hockey game, you cleaned off the pond and you convince people to do it. And that's basically what I do for a living now. Like, I clean off the pond and I convince people to play a hockey game. So that kind of life of actually unregulated freedom, you know, turns out to be very important for design and creative work because I don't know the boundaries, because I didn't learn them.

MG: You had no books in the house that you grew up in.

BRUCE MAU: That's right. It was a it just wasn't part of my parents' culture. You know, they just didn't have books. Like when you're growing up, you know, when you're a kid growing up and that's the way it is, then that's the way it is. You don't know that it's weird. You don't know that it's it's not good. You just think this is life. And it wasn't until much later that I began to really, you know, really fall in love with books and books have become such an important part of my work and my life. I mean, I really defined my life in some ways by the books that I've done.

MG: How has the environment in Sudbury shaped you? I mean, it's a place that that is and this comes up in the film. It's, you know, structured in many ways around the resource industry. There's the tailing ponds, there's the moonscapes that look like the moon. How did that shape the work that you end up doing?

BRUCE MAU: Well, I mentioned that kind of freedom, that unregulated, you know, I don't remember anyone ever getting a permit for anything. And and as a consequence, a lot of the things burn down, like the electrical work was done by not electricians. And so our house burned down as a kid. My my house burned down and so do a lot of other friends when their houses burned down. And so it wasn't that kind of radical an event, but it was a big event in my life because we had nowhere to live. We couldn't live together for a while. And I was actually traded to a farmer for room and board. What do you mean traded? Well, I was given to a farmer as a labourer in exchange for room and board. And then he traded me to a rancher to work on the ranch in exchange for hay for his barn. That sounds like an insane story in the 20th century, but that's how it works. And so I had quite wonderful experience. You know, it all informs what I do and know. Our house is built on a rocky hill, so we couldn't have running water in the wintertime. And my job as a young man was to go to the well in the valley every day with my snowmobile and provide water to the house for a family of seven. Frankly, I was quite embarrassed by that for the early part of my life, that it was not something I want to talk about. But I realised over time is that that experience I share with over a billion people. And I know what it means to carry water for the family. I know how heavy that is and how much work it is and that kind of empathy. Actually is central to what I do, I don't solve my problems, unfortunately, I work on other people's problems. You know, as designers, we need to develop a very advanced methodology of listening, of empathy, of understanding other life forms. For me, that idea of extending your empathy to other forms of life is really central to what we're doing now, which is what we call life centred design that doesn't put humans at the centre of the universe. It puts life. And we come to live along with all the other creatures, animate and inanimate. We are related to the rocks. We are related to the grasses. We are related to other people. I mean, when I look around and just look at the savagery and injustice and violence based on racism, I just think this is a total lack of empathy. We need a methodology of design in our culture. We need empathy.

MG: How does that apply to you working for a corporation like Coca-Cola? Why did you decide to work with them?

BRUCE MAU: That's a great question, and I remember when we decided that a lot of my friends were not entirely happy with me. They didn't think I should be doing that. But in my view, you know, I'm I'm willing to stay in the game in order to move the world forward, even in a very conflicted situation. For me, the opportunity that Coca-Cola represents is much bigger than the problem that they represent. They're a global company. They're they produce things and distribute them. And one of the things that we do in our methodology is called running the numbers. We said just run the business for 50 years and see what happens. And don't make it better, don't make it worse, just run it as it is and see what's going to accumulate in 50 years. And what we showed them was that over a 50 year period, they would have produced two point seven trillion P.E.T. bottles and left about two point two trillion of them in the environment.

MG: These are like the plastic bottles that the Coke comes in.

BRUCE MAU: Yeah. And we said, you know, if you don't think that two trillion pieces of garbage with your logo on it. It's a isn't a problem, you're not doing a fiduciary duty. You really have to think about the accumulation of that. And that's really the kind of imaginative part of this, is to actually start to see what happens when things accumulate.

MG: What did you do for them?

BRUCE MAU: We built the sustainability platform. We said, look, you're going to have to completely transformed the entire global enterprise for perpetuity if you want to be part of the future. You have to do what you're doing in a way that you can do it forever. And that means redesigning everything. That means new materials, new products, new packaging, new ways of doing what you're doing. You have to understand that Coca-Cola isn't a company. It's actually an alliance of thousands of companies. It's not like a business where you can say this is what you're going to do. You have to inspire change. You can't mandate it. So the only way to actually shift them is to show them a better future and say, look, we're going to go over here. Let me show you what that looks like and what it feels like and what it means and how that how people are going to relate to that. And that's where we're going to go.

MG: Do you think you were successful in that work?

BRUCE MAU: Yes, I mean, in the film, actually, our partner on that project, who is the head of Global Brand at the time, he said, you know, out of that project came thousands of initiatives to change the company. And it's a long term transformation. You're not turning these organisations on a dime. They do a billion and a half transactions a day where that kind of scale of operation that you're dealing with is really challenging. But for me, most important was to say Coca-Cola is committed to a long term sustainable platform and we're going to transition the business in this way, because I knew that if we did that, thousands and thousands of other businesses that don't have they don't have the wherewithal. They don't have the resources, the the research, the science, the inside strategy. They just don't have all that that thousands of businesses would follow suit, which is exactly what happened.

MG: You mentioned friends were upset when you took this job. I mean, there are a lot of people in your studio who are upset as well. So what are you doing? And you wonder whether I mean, how do you address the concerns that you're part of a greenwashing kind of enterprise for a company that still, you know, makes and sell sugar water and has its ties to an obesity crisis, that this is important work. But in the grand scheme of things, it's a box that they've checked.

BRUCE MAU: You have to be, you know, at least I try to be sincere in my work and I try to be honest and sincere in my work, and I demand that of my clients. I told Coca-Cola when we started, if you're not serious about this, my recommendation is to not do anything, don't talk about it. Just put up a sign that says buy more coke, because if you engage this, it's going to take a long term total engagement. You're going to have to invest billions of dollars over time. This is a major change in the organisation of the enterprise. And, you know, when we presented it to the senior executives, one of the executives said, look, this should be our approach to corporate social responsibility. And the CEO at the time was our client said absolutely not. This is going to change the way that we do business for decades to come. And the moment he said that, I realised, OK, we've done what we came to do here. And, you know, you have to acknowledge that it's never perfect. You know, like I like to think of it like carving jello with a chainsaw. You know, you're not going to get the details you got you're going to get the basic gestures and and you have to get used to that, it's not my natural inclination, I'm I'm a designer. I like to get the details, but you have to actually go for the the real impact, you know, when you're doing something like the scale that you're doing, the challenges are really significant if you're going to change. And so it takes a long time to figure it out.

MG: Tell me briefly about Mecca. You were asked to redesign Mecca. What did you think when you were given that brief?

BRUCE MAU: I thought they had the wrong number. Hello? What? Why would you want me to do? But over time I realised, wow. And really what they were looking for, they wanted a new way of thinking about it. So they came to me and they said, we want you to do a 20 year plan. And my response was, if we do a 20 year plan that's going to be based on the car because that's what we have for the next 20 years. And I checked and the car is just about over. So let's do a thousand year plan. Because if we do a thousand year plan, we can't possibly know what the technologies will be. We'll have to design an open platform for innovation. So it's really about taking a step back to say, OK, imagine that you don't know what the transportation technologies are going to be in the city, the future. How would you design that city? It's going to take you to a different place. And that's exactly what we did. And we did a vision that was really transformational in their way of thinking about the city. And this

MG: is in part how to move people into the [unintelligible].

BRUCE MAU: To have the experience of the Hajj in a safe way. I mean, that's what triggered the project because the numbers are now so great. They had kind of two problems. In the brief, one is they don't have the sheer volume to meet the need. There's a kind of mathematics to it where every single Muslim has to go to Mecca during their lifetime for the Hajj. And if you do the numbers, it just doesn't work. It means that you need two hundred years to get everybody through. Obviously, people aren't going to want to two hundred any time soon. So so we had to kind of address that problem. And then the other problem was just the design of the city itself that it had so encroached on the Grand Mosque that the way that they did it kill a lot of people, a lot of people got crushed. I mean, there was a year just before we did the work where they had 800 people die. You know, it's a real problem.

MG: You're not a Muslim man, and so you can't go to Mecca. And the project ultimately ended up not moving forward because there were concerns around having a non Muslim leading the project. I mean, what does that tell you about the limits of design?

BRUCE MAU: Well, it's not exactly accurate. It was never meant to be kind of the definitive plan. It really was a vision for Mecca and it is being implemented in its own way. Like I say, it's not you know, it's like carving Chello with a chainsaw. So for that kind of work, you know, when we're designing city plans and city visions, it's an iterative collaboratives, messy, inaccurate, unhappy, unpleasant experience. That kind of sums up the word, you know, you're never going to get exactly what you want. You just don't have the control. And so you need to design concepts and models that are so robust and vigorous that they survive that process.

MG: What is it like to I mean, to be like the ideas guy with big problem or big solutions to the problems that exist right now? And then you come up against. The limits of your power to implement them and the practicality of implementing them.

BRUCE MAU: It's an incredibly good life, you know, like I love what I do. You know, there are times when it's just frustrating beyond belief. But for the most part, it's an adventure that I couldn't have imagined. You know, I've worked with some of the most amazing people on the planet. I've been involved in things that I never would have imagined. I mean, if you had met me at the well and said, Bruce, pay attention because you might have to design Mecca. I would have said that it's not very likely. Yeah, but that is what happened. And every day is a life of adventure. I mean, it's a learning life. You know, like I often say that I get hired and paid handsomely to do what I don't know how to do. And that turns out to be a wonderful way to make a living.

MG: You reveal in the film that you have been having health problems and had not I mean, if you're talking about designing versus accidental, you hadn't been doing enough to look after yourself. How are you doing now?

BRUCE MAU: Much better. Much better. I you know, I had a problem with my heart and it was actually traced back to a problem with sleeping. And so I had to fix that and I couldn't avoid it. But it was in some ways emblematic of the way that I live and work. You know, I am totally passionate about the work that we do. If we take on a project, we go all in and it's 24/7 and that takes its toll. If you're not sleeping well and thank goodness for technology and medicine, my heart is back to normal, which I'm happy to report. But it is a struggle, it will be a struggle to so many dying day. I don't do I don't do enough in that regard.

MG: But there is some irony to that, right. For a guy who has redesigned his life and is obsessed with like being deliberate and designing things that you left that kind of part off to the side.

BRUCE MAU: Yeah, it's you know, it's I can't explain it. Unfortunately, I can't explain it. Well, I could, actually, but that would be a whole other issue

MG: to final things. One is I mean, you're incredibly optimistic. Can you describe throughout the film is being optimistic. And this is a world that faces these huge, wicked problems, whether it's the pandemic, whether it's growing inequality, whether it's climate change, whether it's authoritarianism. What is it that keeps you optimistic in the face of all of the nasties that are coming our way?

BRUCE MAU: Well, you know, one of the MC24 principles in the book that I published is fact based optimism. So it's optimism that is not Pollyanna. It's not just kind of stupid. Everything will be fine. It's actually looking at the data and the data is radically optimistic, like what we've been able to do is astounding. And the the data point that I refer people to first is eight billion. The fact that we're eight billion is because we solved so many problems and the problems we now have are success problems, not failure problems. So we have a new class of problem at the at a higher order of complexity. So we solve the transportation problems, we design the car. We didn't design the eco system that the car would produce. And that's what we have to do now. So the foundation of life centred design is to really think about the ecology of the problem. So for me, my optimism comes from the data. What we've actually done already and what we're already doing to solve them, even though I mean, it's harrowing, it's I mean, every day, every day, it's more urgent to do these things. It's more urgent to change the way that we live and think and make life at the centre and not humans.

MG: Just finally, what do you love about Slinkies in this film? You're walking out the Slinky all the time. I've seen you at exhibitions and you walk around in Slinkies as well. What do you what is so great about slinky?

BRUCE MAU: I mean, it's just a beautiful thing that is such a brilliant design, so simple, so elegant and just has a kind of absolutely beautiful movement to it. So it's just one of those things that I kind of fell in love with. You know, it's, it's a favourite.

MG: There's a lot of joy in that little thing. Tt's great to see you, Bruce. Thank you for this.

BRUCE MAU: Thank you.

MG: Thank you for having me. Bruce Mau is a Canadian designer based in Chicago. The new documentary about his life and work is called Mau at Screening is part of the Hot Docs Film Festival. You can catch a live Q&A with him tonight. Online, of course, because of covid restrictions. Well, coming up after your regional update,

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They need to make an informed choice as to whether they would prefer to get vaccinated sooner with a Jannsen or AstraZeneca vaccine or wait to receive the MirMRNAinae vaccine.

MG: What confused, perhaps about vaccine advice a lot of Canadians are right now. In 90 seconds, we'll dig into the latest vaccine recommendations from the country's advisory committee on Matt Galloway. You're listening to the current. Stay with us. 3

Clearing up confusion around NACI’s 'preferred' vaccines comments; and Ethiopia's Tigrayans subjected to atrocities

Guests: Sabina Vohra-Miller, Dr. Tefera Tedros, Haileselassie Medhin

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway, you're listening to The Current. The best vaccine is the first one that's available to you. That is what we have been told for months. But Canada's National Advisory Committee on Immunisation, or NACI, is causing confusion this week. Here is Dr. Shelley Deekes, one of NACI's members in a press conference on Monday.

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MRNA vaccines are the preferred vaccine. The viral vector vaccines are very effective vaccines, but there is a safety signal. When we first provided recommendations, we did not know about the vaccine's safety signal. Now there's been a vaccine safety signal and we've modified the recommendations accordingly.

MG: That safety signal comes from the very rare blood clots associated with the AstraZeneca vaccine. Amarna vaccines are those made by Pfizer and Moderna. NACI chair Dr. Caroline Quach-Thanh took the note of caution even further on CTV's Power Play.

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VOICE 1: This needs to be an informed consent. If, for instance, my sister was to get the AstraZeneca vaccine and die of a thrombosis when I know that it could have been prevented and that she's not in a high risk area. I'm not sure I could live with it. It's really true that--

VOICE 2: But that's so rare. Like, I understand that, but I agree. It's so rare.

MG: Rare. Meanwhile, the prime minister Justin Trudeau, said yesterday that he was happy to have had his AstraZeneca shot. Are you confused? You're not alone. Sabina Vohra-Miller is the founder of the Unambiguous Science website. Sabina, good morning.

SABINA VOHRA-MILLER: Good morning.

MG: What sort of damage do you think was done in NACI's comments around preferred vaccines?

SABINA VOHRA-MILLER: Yeah, I'll be honest, I am not a fan of that word preferred. You know, I do like the fact that NACI is being very transparent and they're allowing people to make this informed decision making and empowering people with information. But the way they communicated this information was very haphazard and in fact, led to a lot of confusion and a lot of chaos, especially at a time when Canadians are looking for, you know, people to be our leadership bodies, to be encouraging everyone to get vaccinated and also building confidence. So it really backfired.

MG: What's wrong with the word preferred in your mind?

SABINA VOHRA-MILLER: You know, there's a lot that that goes into it. First of all, you know, it's creating this [unintelligible] system of vaccines, which I'm not a fan of, especially because, you know, the underlying fact here is that when you're looking at exposure risk and high exposure risk, who are the people who are living in hotspot areas? They're predominantly racialised essential workers. So now we're telling them that, you know, you should get vaccinated ASAP, but you're probably going to get a less preferred vaccine. And I think that is just so problematic to be using terminology like that.

MG: How are we supposed to be listening to here? I mean, the prime minister who says that the best vaccines, the first vaccine that's available to you or Nasse, I mean, you can understand why this is incredibly frustrating for so many people.

SABINA VOHRA-MILLER: You know, I agree. But here's where I think that people need to be looking into this better. So the first vaccine that is offered to you, especially in a province that has a really high covid is really what NACI is also suggesting, because what they're seeing is what you need to do is a risk benefit analysis. But I think that's the point that they haven't really clarified. So first of all, everything in life has literally everything in life has risk. There's not a single thing you do that you know, where you don't make these calculated, informed risks. Every medicine you take, you have to do a risk benefit analysis. And here, what are the risks you're looking at the risks of the vaccine causing this very, very, very rare but very severe blood clot. But the chance of death is low. It's one in 50 K to one in 100 K. And then what's the risk of covid? It so, you know, that depends on where you live, your area, your age, your exposure risk. What happens if you actually bring covid home? Do you live in a multi gen and housing? Does that mean you're probably going to affect your entire house. And also long term health effects of covid. and so that's what your risks are. And so if you live in a province like Ontario, if you live in a province like Alberta where covid is just, you know, completely spreading like wildfire, what do you do in this situation? If you're actually waiting for a vaccine? It means every extra day that you wait for a vaccine is a day that you could possibly be exposed to covid. So I think that you need to have a very nuanced and a very balanced way of explaining this. And to be honest, you know, though, the nuances in Ontario and Alberta and other provinces that have high covid rates, the first vaccine is the better option, even if you look at the way NACI has put their guidelines.

MG: So people are looking for clear information if you are offered the AstraZeneca vaccine, what is your sense, should somebody take it?

SABINA VOHRA-MILLER: Yeah, and so I think in my opinion, you know, some of this really depends on where you're living. So if you're living in an area that has high covid or exposure risk is high and you go into a vaccine clinic and you're offered, hey, take your pick whatever vaccine we have, all of them here. I mean, that's a very unlikely scenario. But in case that happens, then perhaps, yes, you know, you pick the MRNA vaccine because zero is always, you know, a better option in terms of a safety risk versus one in 50k or one in 100k. But if you go to a vaccine clinic and they have an AstraZeneca and you live in an area that has high covid, that absolutely you take the AstraZeneca because the the benefits are far, far, far outweigh the risks at this point, given that, you know, we have uncontrolled spread and it is a race against variance. But then if you live in a province that does not have a lot of covid see it somewhere in the Atlantic and you have the luxury to actually wait for an MRNA vaccine because you don't have the dire consequences of being exposed to covid then perhaps you could wait for an MRNA vaccine. The the issue I have with this is that we still in Nova Scotia that the situation can change really quickly and really rapidly. So by declining a vaccine or taking on a risk, people need to understand that, that, there are risks to everything. So you're comparing the risk of the side effect at the same time and also comparing the risk of not getting vaccinated as quickly as you possibly can.

MG: Should people who have had the AstraZeneca vaccine be concerned at all?

SABINA VOHRA-MILLER: I actually don't think so. I think, first of all, the risk of this is still incredibly low. The other thing is, because we had the pause, we were able to actually understand how to quickly diagnose it, how to how to appropriately treat. So what I would recommend everyone to do is please don't panic. I am getting a lot of panic messages from people. I strongly still believe AstraZeneca is a good vaccine, is very efficacious. But, you know, take the time to actually look at what side of side effects you should be keeping an eye out for, what symptoms you should be keeping an eye out for, because we now know how to diagnose it. We now know how to treat it quickly and appropriately. So take the time to do that. But otherwise, I would not be concerned. My mother in law, you know, got the vaccine and she asked me, what do I do? She actually had- so it's funny, my father in law got the Pfizer vaccine the day that my mother in law got AstraZeneca, because that was the first one that was available to her for her age group. And that's what I would recommend. And they live here in Ontario. So absolutely. You know, I would not panic if you've gotten the AstraZeneca. It's a great vaccine. The risk is very, very low.

MG: Sabina, appreciate you walking us through this. There's a lot of confusion and I hope that this has helped clear things up somewhat for some people. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. Sabina Vohra-Miller, the founder of the Unambiguous Science website.

[Music]

MG: You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. My name is Matt Galloway. The war in the Ethiopian region of Tigray is intensifying. Thousands of people have been killed. Mulugeta Tedla is a Canadian Ethiopian originally from that region, and he's been hearing about the brutality. His own family was targeted.

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One of my cousins wanted to leave to go to the nearby village where his mother resided. So he took his wife and his baby and worked. While they were walking, they were intercepted by the two Eritrean government forces. One of them started interrogating him and the soldier shot him on the knees. My cousin fell on the ground and right after he fell, he shot him on the head.

MG: What happened to Mulugeta Tedla's cousin is not unique. It has been six months since fighting between Ethiopia's national army, integrase, People's Liberation Front began. Eritrea and the Amhara ethnic group have also joined the conflict. And now all sides have been accused of committing atrocities against civilians. The U.N. Security Council has ordered an investigation into what they describe as possible war crimes. Dr. Tefera Tedros is amongst the more than two million Syrians forced to flee their homes because of this war. We have reached him at a refugee camp in Sudan. Dr Tedros, hello.

DR. TEFERA TEDROS: Hello, how are you?

MG: I am well, thank you. How are you doing?

DR. TEFERA TEDROS: Well, we're just surviving.

MG: Why did you need to flee your home? Why did you have to flee to Sudan?

DR. TEFERA TEDROS: Exactly, this is a place where I was in [unintelligible], in the West Tigray. And so in early November, there were some clashes so far. And then in November 89, there was an extensive shelling coming from Eritrea into our home town, which has actually killed more than 93 civilian. Just after the shooting, they stopped the targeted killing of young men, particularly Tigrinya speaking, and then they start making a list of people to be executed which one of them was my name, actually.

MG: So your name, just to be clear, your name was on the list of people that were going to be executed.

DR. TEFERA TEDROS: My name was on the list of 43 people which were going to be executed. Yes.

MG: What is it like having to flee your own home?

DR. TEFERA TEDROS: This is very confusing feeling that we had in the beginning. We thought it was OK some two days and then we'd go back home. But then when this indiscriminate killing of our Tigrinya speaking, particularly after making these concentration camps and and punishing children in a concentration camp with hunger and thirst and killing them, then we thought it's not safe. So we just have to just flee our home and then start a new life in a new place, which is completely different, strange and very different to actually we're having a very difficult time being away from home.

MG: Tell me more about you use the phrase concentration camps. Tell me more about why you use that phrase to describe what's happening there.

DR. TEFERA TEDROS: There are concentration camps, particularly in the West and Tigray, specifically in [unintelligible], the place where the atrocity and massacres started. There is a specific place, private, owned by Mr. Abadie, a very big compound where there were more than 5000 people concentrated there, all Tigrinya speaking from mostly men, and women also, there were other government buildings also in [unintelligible] where they are used concentration camps where there are 1000 people at each places. There were four other places in Humira town as well, including the police station. These are concentration camps mainly for young men, Tigrinya speaking where they keep them to punish them with hunger and [unintelliglbe]. And then they selic from these concentration camps that 150, 200 people, and then they take them to the river bank and then excuse. So there are witnesses who have survived this execution actually from these concentration camps after being selected and taken away, this is the exact thing going on after the war, after the [unintelligible], the war, and then this concentration camp is what comes next.

MG: We have heard reports of ethnic cleansing and sexual violence as well. Is that what you're hearing about unfolding in Tigray?

DR. TEFERA TEDROS: Exactly that are different groups of women from the age of seven to 67, the oldest that we have, we have heard of being raped, some of them in gang groups. There are many, many very bad things that are being done to these women, particularly in Humera in [unintelliglbe] and also in [unintelligible], where this Eritrean and the Amhara families, they were raping them in gangs, in groups, and then they were also pouring some alcohol into the private parts of these women just to discredit them. And these soldiers were telling the women if they leave being Tigrinya, then they will live in peace. Or if they marry someone non Tigran, then then their blood will be cleaned, so they will live in peace. This is particularly a targeted weapon of war that the soldiers and the militias are using, which actually has been happening in different parts of the graduate.

MG: There are calls for an investigation into allegations of genocide. Do you believe that that's what this is, that this is a genocide that's unfolding.

DR. TEFERA TEDROS: This is genocide. This is genocide. This is the maximum extent of genocide can of get in because the war was indiscriminate. It includes all civilians, civilian holdings and also infrastructures. And also they were targeted killing, particularly of Tigrinya speaking. And when people actually when they killed them, there was one young man who survived and the soldiers were chanting, we will kill all Tigrinya. We will kill all Tigrinya speaking. This is what they were chanting before they shoot them, but this man luckily survived. And then he managed to escape into the camps where we are in. And I personally treated him. So this is what exactly happens in every way when they execute, particularly those just men who are in concentration camps or men who have been who have been captured, civilian men. So this is what they are doing.

MG: who who do you blame for these atrocities? Who do you blame for what's happening right now?

DR. TEFERA TEDROS: The main blame will go to the leadership and government with its [unintelliglbe] prime minister actually acting not as the prime minister of his own country, but as a facilitator of somebody else who has a different intention, is Tigray, who has allowed neighbouring country to come in and do whatever they want in Tigray along with his own forces, actually, which are doing these atrocities and this ethnic cleansing. Now the killing of these people and and then raping women, now, also, they are giving identity cards, forced identity cards, which erase that is Tigrans. And schoolchildren are forced to be learnt in Amharic language in a language of non Tigrinya, just to erase from the very beginning the identity of these people. So this is what's going on in Tigray and this is a genocide.

MG: What do you believe that countries like Canada should be doing now to help people like yourself?

DR. TEFERA TEDROS: Canada. I have known Canada being a very good humanitarian aid to Ethiopia in many of its difficult times since I was a child. And so the main thing now is to put some pressure in its platform and its position that Canada is a respected country with this very strong voice on different platforms. And so maybe put some pressure to this two crazy men of [unintelligible] prime minister and Eritrean government to hold whatever they are doing until now, before it gets even more, even more worse. I mean, so far, hundreds of thousands of people's lives have lost, bodies have been looted, and now millions of people are at risk. More millions- six, seven minutes of all Tigrinya people are at risk of a disaster.

MG: You're living in the refugee camp now, I just wonder, you mentioned that you got there and you were thinking that perhaps you would be able to go back home at some point in time soon. Are you optimistic that you'll be able to return home?

DR. TEFERA TEDROS: I don't know if I will. I don't know if I would call it home anymore, to be honest, after losing all these things, I mean, after losing loved ones and friends families and also losing properties of life. It would be an empty space to go back. So I don't know. I don't really know if I would call his home doctor.

MG: I really appreciate speaking with you. And I wish you the very best. Take care of yourself and your family. And thank you very much for speaking with us.

DR. TEFERA TEDROS: Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you.

MG: Take care. Bye bye. Dr. Tefera Tedros, is a Tigrayan Refugee, currently living in a refugee camp in Sudan, to analysts who have followed the Ethio pian prime minister, Abiy Ahmed's rise to power. This conflict was foreseeable even though he won the Nobel Peace prise just two years ago. Haileselassie Medhin is an Ethiopian researcher focussed on policy and economic development. We've reached him in Gothenburg, Sweden. Last Maddin, hello to you.

HAILESELLASSIE MEDHIN: Thank you. Good afternoon.

MG: Can you explain just briefly this conflict for us? Who are the warring parties and what is it, the root of this conflict that we're seeing right now?

HAILESELLASSIE MEDHIN: Basically, this this conflict, it did not start on on November four, it started three years ago when ABC was appointed and Prime Sarabi is made a very strategic move, a strategic mistake on his part to basically move away from Ethiopia's real problems and exploit cracks in the societal and political space to his political ambitions. One of those cracks was the hate and negativity that he saw against the Tigray Peoples Liberation Front, which was part of the coalition and Tigrayans in general. So he started pushing the politics of blaming a politics of hate against [unintelligible] and Tigrayans as a political strategy. So that was the main reason I think, that we are here. A second indicator that we would be here was how Prime Minister Abiy formed alliances with elements who had a very clear anti-Tirgriyan agenda in South Africa of Eritrea, who was not hiding his anti-Americanism. Amhara Nationalist is the kind of people that attitude was refer to committing atrocities in Western Tigray who are also not hiding their anti-Americanism. They were getting more and more emboldened. And on the other side you have the regional governments led by the TPLF who had, you know, special forces and and militias. They are now called the Tigray Defence Forces. That's where we are.

MG: And I mean, again, that Tigrayan government I mean, has been the subject of great scrutiny and attention, in part because people looked at it as in some ways a breakaway government. But you're suggesting that this goes beyond simply the forces and the government, that this goes to the Tigrayan people as well, a hatred of the Tigrayan people?

HAILESELLASSIE MEDHIN: Absolutely. It is really this this hatred against the Tigrayan people that has been exploited to the maximum to create a coalition of forces around in the name of toppling the TPLF that Prime Minister Abiy has waged war on. It's important to to stress that fundamentally, of course, this is a failure of how he has been leading Ethiopia in the wrong way. It's also important to note that a key trigger point was when Prime Minister Abiy postpone the elections. But the Tigrayan region, led by the TPLF, decided to go ahead with the elections, which were held in September. So you basically have that TPLF newly elected in September by the Tigrayan people, t2.7 Million of them, who actually posed a political challenge to Prime Serabee, calling him, of course, illegitimate because he was to win the elections and he called the elections illegitimate. That was also part of what led us. So it's a combination of the anti Tigray coalition, the political cracks in the system, said his failure to lead the country in what was promised by the reform. And here we are.

MG: The other element of this, of course, is that the prime minister was awarded the Nobel Peace prise for helping to sign a peace deal between Ethiopia and Eritrea. How how do you understand that? Because for a lot of people outside of part of the world, that's how they knew of of the prime minister.

HAILESELLASSIE MEDHIN: Well, I mean, look, one of the saddest things that are happening right now is Eritrean young men killing Tigrayans in Ethiopia. In 2018, when the peace with Ethiopia between Ethiopia and Eritrea was announced that all of us were hopeful, not least the people of Tigray, because they were the victims of this division, the stalemate that was there. And we saw amazing scenes at the border between Ethipia and Eritrea are basically integrated. But then what we realised was that his plans were different. He did not want peace. He crossed the border immediately. So by the time PM Abbiy won the Nobel Peace prise, already there was no peace. The border was closed and there was a lot of talk of threatening Tigray very often [unintelliglbe]. So you can call this. This is actually a pact for war. That was what has happened.

MG: You've heard Dr. Tedros describe appalling scenes of sexual violence, of targeted assassinations. Do you believe that what's unfolding right now is a genocide?

HAILESELLASSIE MEDHIN: Absolutely, for me in December, I look at the data and I concluded, given the coalition of forces, that this was a genocide. So first, you know, if you look at the atrocities that are happening, the massacres, the sexual violence, the ethnic cleansing, the destruction of health centres and schools, forced starvation, and I mean, you are hearing it from firsthand from Dr Tedros. They fit all the definition of genocide in terms of the type and scale of atrocities. But crucially, I think the intent is here what really matters, the tent that has brought these forces together is the intent to destroy Tigrayans. And that's evident in the actions that they are taking without no, not stop until today. So, yes, a genocide is happening in Tigray and the world is watching idly.

MG: And so in the face of that, as you say, as the world is watching, there have been many people to grind's amongst them, but others as well who have been very critical of the international community for not doing more to stop this. What what if you think about what steps could actually be taken? What are those steps that could put a halt to this?

HAILESELLASSIE MEDHIN: So, you know, already months ago, the United Nations Security Council should have passed a resolution to stop the war, to order Eritrea to exit its forces. They knew by then to ensure that there's a ceasefire, to ensure that Amhara militia forces leave to to preserve their army, to ensure that that happens, and then to put in place perhaps a UN commission that oversees the protection of people, their rights, the ensuring that aid reaches to people, which hasn't happened to a large part, ensuring that there will be independent investigations to crimes that have been committed, that there would be justice, dialogue and some kind of reconciliation in the future. And I mean, this should have happened a long time ago, but that needs to happen now. That's what the International Committee should do.

MG: I could hear it in your voice. But I mean, just finally, Ethiopia is your home country. And as you watch this unfold, as you hear Dr. Tedros describe what he has seen as you relate, what you have heard from friends in Tigray, what is it like for you to see this happening now?

HAILESELLASSIE MEDHIN: It's is crushing, it's heartbreaking. Look, I I was extremely helpful for Ethiopia. Ethiopia was to be sort of the sign of African renaissance. What's possible in Africa now. Now we are talking about genocide. We have a foreign army from one of the most brutal states in the world, massacring Ethiopians in our land. So I worry that Ethiopia is heading in a very, very dangerous pathway. You know, the worst. Might it come?

MG: Unfortunately, Hailesellasie Medhin, I'm glad to have had the chance to speak with you. Thank you very much.

HAILESELLASSIE MEDHIN: Thank you much. Thank you for having me.

MG: Hailesellasie Medhin is an Ethiopian researcher focussed on policy and economic development. He was in Gothenburg, Sweden, this morning. That is The Current for this Wednesday. Coming up next on CBC Radio One, it's Q big show Topower speaking with, amongst others, Marianne Faithfull. She has some new recordings of poetry that you'll hear all about. He'll also be speaking with Marie Jones, who, amongst many other things, is an actor, a world champion arm wrestler and an actor who plays a world champion arm wrestler in a new film. It's called The Golden Arm. How could you not want to stay tuned to hear more about that and about being a world champion arm wrestler? That's coming up just a few moments on CBC Radio One. In the meantime, I Matt Galloway thanks for listening to The Current. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

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Wednesday May 5, 2021 Transcript

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