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The AIH Transcript for May 3, 2021

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: The coast was not clear. We hear from one of the bystanders who leaped into the ocean yesterday to help rescue more than two dozen people after an overcrowded boat capsized off the coast of California.

CH: Back on track. Nearly a decade after his partner died, a Newfoundland man takes his fight for pension benefits public and now CN Rail will review its policy on retroactive compensation for same sex spouses.

CO: Here today, still here tomorrow. An epidemiologist suggests we manage our expectations because COVID-19 and its variants will likely be sticking around even after most of us have been stuck.

CH: Net violation. A Team Canada volleyball player says COVID-19 restrictions are interfering with her training, even outdoors by herself, which is what she was doing when police stopped her this weekend.

CO: High waddler mark. A Manchester man tells us about the plan he hatched to support a nesting duck living on his ninth store balcony last year, which so impressed that bird that she's back this year.

CH: And seen butter days. 30 ago today, an inferno in a warehouse engulfed Madison, Wisconsin, in chaos and also melted butter, which flooded the area and fully coated the firefighters. As It Happens. The Monday Edition. Radio that guesses they got more pats on the back than they could handle.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: San Diego Migrant Shipwreck

San Diego Migrant Shipwreck

Guest: Anita Beckman

CH: Anita Beckman planned to relax by the water on Sunday with her husband and two children at Point Loma near San Diego, but a casual beach day turned into something much different. At least three people have now died and more than two dozen were pulled out of the water after a suspected migrant smuggling boat crashed into a reef. A lot of the rescuers were bystanders who'd been enjoying a day by the ocean, including Anita Beckman. We reached Ms. Beckman in San Diego.

CO: Anita, at what point on Sunday morning did you realise that there was a boat in serious trouble?

ANITA BECKMAN: We arrived in Cabrillo at about 9:15, and as soon as we walked over the path to go down to the shore, we could see the boat in the water bobbing in the waves. My husband and I used to race sailboats, so we knew that the boat was in distress.

CO: And at what point did you realise it was full of people?

AB: We smelled gasoline -- a lot of gasoline. And then we saw people start coming out of the boat. Right away, the boat tipped involved and people were falling off. And like 25 people came out of the boat just so quickly and were jumping into the water. It was awful.

CO: And then how long did it take before that little boat was completely apart?

AB: I think it was four minutes maximum. Everyone was just watching in awe there must have been 30 people on the shore.

CO: The people who are getting out of the boat, the 25 people, did they have any survival gear? Did they have life jackets?

AB: That was the really sad thing. There were life jackets floating in the water. None of these people were wearing a life jacket. I asked one of them later why they weren't wearing the life jacket. They said that they didn't know where the life jackets were on the boat. So they didn't have a chance. Clearly, several of them had no idea how to swim. Several of them were grabbing on to parts of the boat to stay afloat. They were coming in with gashes, head injuries. One man was dragged in by a Navy person on civilian duty at the time with another guy. And he was unconscious and foam was coming out of his mouth. He just was in terrible condition. He was later revived by an EMT that was on site. There were other people is another guy, he just was continually vomiting the sea water. A lot of people went into the water to help them out. My sister-in-law said that she saw a woman like in spandex grab two of the floating life jackets and go way out to get some of the people that were being carried out by the riptide. And she brought two people in. So it's just watching people just really struggle for their life right in front of you.

CO: What I can see in the video is an incredibly powerful surf there, right? You mentioned the riptide.

AB: Yes. I wasn't aware of the riptide until we saw people just being carried out. It's enough to destroy a small boat coming in like that. It had a cabin on top. And at one point you saw that the cabin just completely slide straight off of the rest of the boat into the water. And after that, it all just started falling apart.

CO: At what point did you make the decision that you had to get into the water to help?

AB: You know, it was just clear that they needed help coming in. And my sister-in-law, I have two small children so my sister-in-law was able to take them. And I just went in and started helping people get out of the water all the way onto the beach and get their wet clothes off, get dry clothes on them. Civilians were giving their dry clothes to all of them. They were shivering, hypothermic.

CO: And as we mentioned, those who did survive, many are in hospital. But there were those who didn't make it. And we know at this point that at least three people have died.

AB: It's awful, it's sad.

CO: You speak Spanish, so what were you able to learn about them and what their journey had been, where they came from?

AB: They said that they came from an island just off of Tijuana. They left the day before, so that would have been Saturday. They had been in the boat roughly at sea for about 24 hours. I took care of the captain of the boat. Unknowingly, I learnt after talking to him and another guy next to him that he was the captain and was a little hypothermic and a little out of it. He said that he had ingested heroin. He had shot himself with heroin, black heroin, four or five hours earlier. So I imagine that the boat's engine had probably had problems about that time. Another gentleman told me that he had been vomiting all night long, so they had probably been in distress and just brought in by the current.

CO: From the reports, the boat was about 40 feet long, so not huge. And people were below, I guess, when they were bobbing into that reef where the boat was smashed apart. Is that your sense?

AB: I mean, first the gasoline smell came ashore and before the boat broke apart, they all came out and civilians were yelling at them from the reef to get out of the boat to come ashore. So they were all out of the boat, as far as I could see, before the boat split apart. But there were some that got out just as the boat was just really toppling over and it looked like the boat was going to smash on top of a couple of them. It came very very close.

CO: Have you seen migrant boats come by before? Have you seen this happen in that area?

AB: Not personally. I mean, we know that they come. It's not a shock.

CO: The captain has been arrested. What do you think will happen with the other people?

AB: Really, I don't know. My husband thinks that they'll be brought back right away, but I hope that each of their stories will be considered. I talked to a girl who came, she was 18 years old. She looked like the youngest person on the boat. She said she was escaping an abusive parent. There were a husband and wife on the boat. I hope that each of their stories are considered before they have to go back. There were a couple of men who were strong and young, and you just could see, as frightened as they were, they were physically okay. They were unharmed and you could see some excitement in them, some relief that they were here. And so it's hard to imagine them having to go back. And they were all individuals. The married couple was the only couple that I spoke to that were together. Everyone else, they all said that they were solo. They didn't come with a partner or anything. And I just can't imagine. So that's not to say that some others, that I spoke to everyone -- I don't know about the people that didn't make it to shore.

CO: But the ones who did -- well, even those who didn't -- they all have a story, don't they?

AB: They sure do. Sure do. I have friends here who have migrated from Mexico, and it's just a very very different life. We have help that comes over from Mexico every day. They cross the border and go home every day. I don't know how many Americans really truly appreciate what we have here. We are very fortunate to live in this country.

CO: Anita, I'm glad that you and your husband were there to help, and I appreciate you speaking with us. Thank you.

AB: Take care.

CH: That was Anita Beckman. She jumped in the water to help rescue people after a suspected migrant smuggling boat crashed. We reached her in San Diego, California.

[Music: Calm Music]

Living with the Virus

Guest: Marc Lipsitch

AB: Try, as we might, to end things the world may be in for a long term relationship with COVID-19. Many infectious disease experts are now less optimistic that countries like the US will ever vaccinate enough people to reach the much hoped for herd immunity. That will mean that the virus or a future variant will keep circulating in the population, even if it kills many fewer people and life largely returns to normal. Marc Lipsitch is an epidemiologist at the Harvard School of Public Health. We reached him in Boston.

CO: Professor Lipsitch should we simply accept that we're going to be living with this virus and its relatives for a long time?

MARC LIPSITCH: I think that's very likely, given the extent of ongoing transmission in many parts of the world and the degree of fatigue that people and their political leaders and our political leaders have shown with intensive control measures for good reason. I think that as vaccines are rolled out in rich countries, the tolerance of people for degree of control that would get us down to zero is almost very hard to imagine. And at the same time, it's kind of a weakest link issue that if one place allows transmission to continue, then it becomes a continuing issue for other places. So I think a very likely outcome is that we will have ongoing transmission, but not the same level of ongoing severe disease in the future.

CO: Okay. I want to unpack a lot of what you just said, because there's a lot there. We understand, many people are led to believe and to hope that as vaccines rule out, as they are doing very well in your country, moderately well in our country, that eventually we get to some point where we can avert further disaster. So is that not the case?

ML: Well, that is the precedent from diseases like measles and smallpox and some others. I think that what's required for really eliminating or eradicating a disease is high vaccine coverage with a very effective vaccine that is not just effective against disease, but against infection and transmission. And at the moment, even in places where the rollout has been successful, we aren't reaching children yet. That might change, probably will change over time. Our coverage levels don't look as though they're going to get very high, due to hesitancy and lack of access and age restrictions. So I think we could make an effort in the direction of really trying to get such high coverage that elimination was possible. But I think these vaccines so far are very good, but not as good as some of the other types of vaccines we have against stopping transmission. And so I think it would require really very close to universal coverage before that would be a realistic goal. And I think that's a ways off.

CO: At the beginning of the pandemic, there was this term "herd immunity" that we were hearing, it was just before we knew we were going to have any kind of effective vaccine and that the idea somehow was that enough people eventually get sick or get infected, even if they didn't get sick, and that that would actually do the trick. And is that not possible?

ML: Well, it's possible and that's happening to a degree as we speak. Every person who gets infected and has immunity is one less person who can transmit, at least for the moment. But the reason why it doesn't solve all problems is that it's not like a race that you can win and then you're there and it's over. Herd immunity goes up when people get infected or vaccinated and it goes down when people are born into the population with no immunity or people lose their immunity due to declining levels of antibodies and other immune effectors. And no one ever said that vaccination or that herd immunity was sort of a 'get there and you're done' kind of thing. It's a process that has to be sustained. I think the question is whether we can sustain high enough levels of vaccination to really drive the virus completely out of the population while we're still having normal sort of full interactions. And I don't think it's impossible, but I think it's quite unlikely that we're going to get to that level with these vaccines. Better vaccines may be around the corner and may be even more effective in suppressing transmission. And that would help. Higher coverage would help. So it's not that herd immunity is doing nothing. It's not just going to magically make something go away. It's going to help us to control the virus.

CO: But is the fault with the vaccines or with the people who won't get the vaccines?

ML: Well, I think -- I don't know if I want to use the word fault. We have had varying success in communicating the value of vaccines. We've had varying success in making them accessible to people. I think it's a lot more fun for some people to talk about hesitancy and sort of blaming the people who don't get vaccinated. But we also can make much greater efforts to offer vaccines to people. You know, in the end, it's a decision and things that are hard to do, more people don't do, and things that are easy to do, more people do. Before we start blaming the non-vaccinators, we also need to really continue with education and with access. I think that's really an important component that's not been emphasised enough.

CO: But I mean, should it be a decision or should it be mandatory?

ML: That's a good question. I think over time it probably should become mandatory if it turns out to be necessary for public health. I think that's still an open question, whether vaccination against this will be necessary for public health or whether we can protect the most vulnerable people with vaccination, thereby make it a much less bad disease. So I'm not going to opine. It's not a scientific question. It's a policy question. I actually don't know what my opinion is on the advisability of requiring vaccines.

CO: All right. We'll be watching. Professor Lipsitch thank you.

ML: Okay. Thank you.

CH: Marc Lipsitch is an epidemiologist at the Harvard School of Public Health and we reached him in Boston.

[Music: Piano Music]

Balcony Ducks

Guest: Steve Stuttard

CH: If you're a duck looking for a nice place to lay your eggs, you could do a lot worse than Steve Stuttard's balcony. Granted, it's a bit high up -- nine stories, to be precise. But the mallard that nested there last year clearly thought Mr. Stuttard's unflappable presence made the precipitous drop worth risking because she's back again this year and her human host is taking his stewardship of her incoming brood to the nest level. We reached Steve Stuttard in Salford Quays near Manchester.

CO: Steve, I gather you are expecting a new batch of baby ducks any day now, right?

STEVE STUTTARD: 28 days is the incubation period for mallard eggs. And yeah, the 28th day is Tuesday.

CO: Okay. Now, last year when she first showed up. And so why do you think why did she come to your balcony, do you think, of all the places she could have nested last year?

SS: I have no idea. I'm really really glad she did. I am an ornithologist, so it was a dream come true. You have to understand that this happened right in the middle of our first lockdown here in the UK -- no bars, these shops, entertainment, no nothing was open. It was a really bad time. And so to have Mrs. Mallard pick my balcony to make a mess was unbelievable. But yeah, my balcony is 150 feet above the Manchester Ship Canal.

CO: Well, she must have known that there was a sympathetic character there, living near that balcony, to have chosen you.

SS: I like to think so. [Laughs]

CO: And you did prove that she was right because you went to great lengths to protect her and the eggs, right? What did you do?

SS: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. She visited my balcony one day and then she stayed and had a look around from the handrail on my balcony, which is great. And then she flew away. The very next day I went to do a little bit of shopping, came back about an hour later and my balcony was just full of bits of plants from my planters. And so I went out to investigate and one of the planters and there was a single egg just laid in the centre of it. And I knew what it was and then just went, oh okay, I've got to start making some plans. And she came back every day for seven days, laid an egg every day. Each day she came back and stayed longer, sat on the eggs. It got to about two or three hours a day then she'd fly away. And then after laying seven eggs, she started sitting 22 hours a day. My balcony has got some gaps and little ventilation there in the face of the handrail where the ducklings could jump through. So they had to be all covered up and things like that. So that's what I did.

CO: How did you keep her from being intimidated by you being so close? I mean, she's a wild animal, right?

SS: Yeah, absolutely, yes, she is wild. Definitely. What I did, I have done the same this year as well, is up to about just above waist height, I've put a screen across so I can actually move around my apartment without disturbing her, but I can still check every so often by just peeping over the top to make sure she's okay. She's now really attached to those eggs and she's not moving for anybody or anything.

CO: Good mother. Now, describe how you managed to get these little ducklings off your balcony last year after they hatched?

SS: Right. The eggs laid, one each day, up to seven days, she then starts 28 days full time. After 28 days, all the eggs hatch within an hour or so. They then jumped down and started walking around. That's a really important time because they have to bond with mother, and mother has to bond with them. So they recognise each other's hears and quacks and all that type of thing. After about 30 minutes of that, she then realised that she couldn't get with the ducklings off because I blocked off all the exits. And so I decided that was the time to move on to the balcony and help get the ducklings down.

CO: We'll just point out the reason why you were preventing her from getting up because the ducklings couldn't have survived going over the edge of that or down the side of your building, right?

SS: No, 150 metres is far too big. It would have been a really dangerous time. And I wasn't going to have that. So I decided to step in and make sure they got home safely.

CO: So mom got down from the building, got down near the canal. How did you get the babies to her?

SS: It seemed pretty simple when you talk about it, but at the time it wasn't. I put a little bit of soil in a plastic bucket and then one by one put them into the bucket, put some really good paracord onto the bucket handle, lowered it to the side. While I was doing this, Mrs. Mallard was flying around just away from the balcony, quacking away. Some babies were quacking back. And the bucket acted like a megaphone. So it was really loud. She then went down to ground level and just stayed at ground level quacking. So she was happy with what was going on, but she realised what was going to happen. So once I started lowering, she just stayed where she was. I tied off the bucket at the balcony level, went down in the lift, and onto the quayside. I literally just pushed the bucket over slowly and safely. And the ducklings run out like arrows. Because she was about 10 metres away and she was calling all the time and they were calling all the time. And then it was only 20 metres to the water's edge and they all jumped in the water together. And I thought that was it. I thought that was a great story. And then here we are 12 months later [chuckles] and it's the same thing.

CO: Well slightly different because you got 11 babies coming this time, right?

SS: Yes, yes, yes, yes. I'm going to go through the same process because it worked. Previously things, the barriers that go around the base of my balcony, really are a lot more sturdy. And she's nested in a different plant of this time. And it's a larger plant -- which I think she laid more eggs because it's a larger plant.

CO: Now you are called Duck Dad by many, including your daughter. But isn't there a Mr. Mallard out there? Did you not see the real dad?

SS: Yes, he flies past on a regular basis and quacks and she replies. And they meet quite regularly. It's not every day. Sometimes she leaves the nest at night so I don't see where she goes. But at least during the day, there is usually a male mallard very close by.

CO: Well, we will be watching to see the happy event, the happy arrival, and when you're little babies come. And it's good to talk to you Steve. Thank you.

SS: Great to talk to you. Thank you for having me on the show.

CH: Steve Stuttard is a Manchester man turned duck dad. We reached him in Salford Quays, England.

[Music: Calm Music]

Weasel

CH: It was around 7:00 in the morning and Becky Harding was getting her kids up and ready for school. She headed into the washroom of her eastern P.E.I. home, and that's when she discovered what no one ever wants to discover in their toilet: a dead weasel. Here are Becky Harding and her husband, Sam Lombardo, describing that discovery, starting with Becky.

BECKY HARDING: [SOUNDCLIP: I looked in the toilet and I thought somebody got up in the night and forgot to flush. [Chuckles] And I noticed that it had a face so quickly realised that it was an animal. I then close the door, ushered the kids downstairs really quickly so that they didn't see. I didn't want them to be scared to use the bathroom. [Chuckles] So we just kind of ignored it for a bit until the kids went off to school and then went in later, got a better look, and noticed that it was a weasel. And so then I got out some barbecue tongs and a garbage bag and put it in the bag. And I threw it in the ditch because I wasn't quite sure what else to do with it. I didn't want to attract any wild animals to our property.

SHANE ROSS: You posted on Ask P.E.I. And what kind of reaction were you expecting when you posted that?

SAM LOMBARDO: So we are at least I am a little bit more city than country. And I was just like, man, what is happening? So I just wanted some kind of explanation. Maybe this is a common occurrence and I just never heard about it. And I was just hoping for someone to say, 'Oh, you know, probably crawled in through the sewer or through the waste. And all you have to do with this. It's just like an easy country solution to the problem that I've never heard of.' And, yeah, it didn't happen. Apparently, it's not that common. It's been a pretty hilarious thread on the Internet, just lots of funny jokes and horrified reactions. And, you know, some people consider this to be like the stuff of nightmares. And I get that.]

CH: Yeah, yeah -- stuff of nightmares. That was Sam Lombardo and before that, Becky Harding, speaking with the CBC's Shane Ross. The pair discovered a weasel, a dead weasel, in their toilet. Unsurprisingly, a Facebook post about this has generated lots of discussion, with some suggesting the creature was already in the house before it ended up in the toilet.

[Music: Synth Music]

Part 2: Same Sex Pension

Same Sex Pension

Guest: Ken Haire

CH: For 33 years, Ken Haire and Gerry Schwarz built a life together. They bought a house in Harbour Grace, Newfoundland. They adopted a bevy of Pekinese show dogs. They collected antiques. And they lived with the assurance that thanks to Mr. Schwarz's decades long career with sea and rail, they'd be taken care of if anything were to happen. But after Mr. Schwarz died in 2012, Mr. Haire discovered he wasn't able to claim his common law spouse's pension because at the time of Gerry's retirement, CN Rail didn't recognise same sex relationships. Years later, Ken Haire has gone public with his long fight to change that. And now, CN Rail says it's re-examining its policy. We reached Mr. Haire in Harbour Grace, Newfoundland.

CO: Ken I know you have been fighting this fight for many years, so how does it feel to finally see it picking up some steam?

KEN HAIRE: Oh, fantastic. I feel like I'm a revolutionary. I hadn't planned on doing this. I went the legal route and we got blocked everywhere. So just a little while ago, I decide to hell with it, I'm 71 years old, I've got nothing to lose, I'm going to go public and see what happens. And it's not just for me. This might help other people that are in the same position too.

CO: Now, your spouse, Gerry Schwarz, he died in 2012, right?

KH: Yeah, January 2nd, 2012.

CO: I'm sorry.

KH: It's the hardest thing that I've ever had to do was just live without him because we were actually true soul mates.

CO: When did you learn? Because initially you and your spouse, Gerry, thought that you were going to get the survivor benefits, right?

KH: Yeah. Gerry was a total company man. He loved CN Rail. He really loved his job. And he was under the impression that -- Gerry is 15 years older than me -- and he was under the impression that if anything happened to him, the intention would go to me. And because he trusted CN or the Pensioners Association, we never questioned it. And there was never anything said to us in letter wise or anything else like that, because we were a male couple that we should get married or -- nothing was ever said to us to make us even think that we wouldn't get it or I wouldn't get it.

CO: But it was the policy of the company when Gerry died, it was the policy of the company to recognise same sex relationships, was it not?

KH: No. Oh, yes. No, I'm sorry. When he died, yes. When he passed away, the law had changed, but it wasn't made retroactive. So I think back before 1998 they still stayed with their old policy and the fact that Gerry retired in 1991, he fell under the old policy, which is man and woman. And that was a slap in the face. I mean, that took a relationship of 33 and a half years and it just threw it in the garbage. If there is a life after this and Gerry is watching, he's devastated that this is going on.

CO: And what did that do? Because Gerry had planned, he figured you were going to get those benefits. How did it change your life not getting that pension? What you were planning to do?

KH: Because of CN Rail, I've had to sell our house. We had a beautiful little home. I had to sell that. And I've sold most of Gerry's -- Gerry was from Germany and when he came to Canada, he brought a lot of antiques and collectables with him -- and I have had to sell all those get by. I've got very little left that belongs to Gerry. And I do blame CN Pensioners Association for putting me in the position where I had to do all that. And as far as I'm concerned, basically what they've done is they've stolen -- it was Gerry's money, they've stolen it and they've also collected interest on that money.

CO: You also had some pets, right? So what happened with that?

KH: Oh god, I'm going to crack up. I've talked about that. We had five Pekinese. And Max the mut was Gerry's dog. I had to move into an apartment, so I had to return our Pekinese to the breeder. So they took them back and they took care of them until they died. But about six years ago, I got one of them back because where I was living at the time they said I could have a little dog, so I got one of them. And she's still with me now, actually, she's 12 years old now, so she's the last of my Pekinese.

CO: So you had to give up your house that you had by the ocean, all Gerry's things and then your dogs.

KH: Yeah. Gerry had a lot of beautiful antiques and I've had to sell them at a loss. So I just sold it for what I get for them.

CO: So you have gone to over these years, since 2012, you have gone to great lengths to fight this. Were you ever tempted to give up? Did you ever think that this was just pointless?

KH: Oh, yeah. Two years ago I told the lawyer that I've had it, I can't do this anymore. I said, I'm tired of waiting. I'm tired of the BS. I even said in the message to them a couple of weeks ago through a representative here, and he got a message back from them, which he forwarded to me that it was dealt with years ago and they're not going to change their policy. And now suddenly they're changing their policy.

CO: And do you think that CN is reviewing its policy because you've gone public, that you have...

KH: I think so. I think they've got afraid now because I think they figured me and others like me in the same position we will give up and you can't fight it anymore, we just don't have the money to fight them or we just don't have the strength to fight them anymore. And they know these people will give up and go away. But I decided not to give up. I told them I'm not going away. I said I'm going to post it every day till the day I die if I have to about what you've done. And I said I'm not going to let it go.

CO: Do you think there are others like you who are being deprived of their pension?

KH: I'm sure there are. But remember, though, I'm 71 years old, so there's a lot of people like me that may not have made it to 71. It's seeing Pensioners Association cough up the money to the people that deserve it. They are not really go because we love as much money as they would have had done in 1991, because a lot of those people are gone now so they don't have to worry. But they think of money first. It's discrimination. It is because we were gay. And the other part is the money. They didn't want to cough up their money.

CO: And now you think they're going to.

KH: Well the chances are better than they did two years ago, so our dream two weeks ago. I mean, I posted that message because I said to hell with it, I'm going to post. And I stared at the Facebook page for about half an hour. I had the message written and I said, should I do it or shouldn't I do it? Will I get people in trouble, blah, blah, blah? So then I did post it and away it went. That was it. And that's how it all started. I didn't expect to get the response that I've been getting. I am honestly tired today from talking to people -- I'm enjoying it, but I'm physically tired.

CO: Well, Ken I'm glad you were there to tell us the story, so thank you.

KH: Well, oh, thank you very much for calling and I really do appreciate any help that I can get to get this straightened out.

CH: Ken Haire's common-law spouse Gerry Schwarz died in 2012. This weekend, CN Rail said it would review its policy on whether people in Mr. Haire's situation will be able to access their late partner's pensions. We reached Ken Haire in Harbour Grace, Newfoundland and Labrador. In a statement, CN Rail confirmed it's reviewing the policy and said, "We realise that some former practises and decisions made in good faith in the past need to be re-examined in light of our engagement toward diversity and inclusion."

[Music: Synth Music]

Butter River Fire

CH: It didn't take long before the enormity of the disaster was clarified or before all the butter was clarified. 30 years ago today, a malfunctioning forklift battery started a fire in a warehouse complex in Madison, Wisconsin. In short order, the city's fire department was facing an almost unimaginable inferno and wading through equally unimaginable greasy rivers to try to extinguish it because those warehouses were full of food, especially butter. So much butter. Ultimately it would take more than a week to put the fire out completely, and it would take longer for Madison to get itself back in order. Also back in odor because when part of a city is totally engulfed in butter, which spews into every nook and cranny and the weather warms up, you got yourself a major stench. The fire started on May 3rd, 1991. Three days later, firefighters still had it under control, but it was burning. That's when Madison Fire Chief Ron Schmelzer spoke with Michael Enright on As It Happens.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: [SOUNDCLIP: Chief, the fire is still burning, as I understand it, but under control, is that right?

RON SCHMELZER: That's correct.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Okay. Tell me what happened. It was a food warehouse?

RON SCHMELZER: Yeah, it was a large warehouse complex, approximately five buildings, cold storage. A lot of people store food surplus items in there. And this particular fire came in about 3:30 p.m. on a Friday afternoon. Within minutes, we had an eruption of fire through the roof. Within 20 minutes, we lost, almost lost, 10 firefighters by the first building collapse.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Good Lord.

RON SCHMELZER: No indication whatsoever that it was going to do that. It was a metal structure. But the intensity of the heat must have been so intense it just pressurised itself and blew itself out of the sides.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Were these old buildings?

RON SCHMELZER: No. They were relatively new, I'd say, within 15 years old.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Now, one of them there were full of cheese. Is that right?

RON SCHMELZER: Well, we've had more of a butter problem than we did have a cheese problem.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: The butter problem.

RON SCHMELZER: I guess I kind of nicknamed this fire the "Butter River Fire," because that's what we ended up with out in front.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: How much butter was in the building?

RON SCHMELZER: We're hearing reports from 15 million pounds to 25 million pounds.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: God. So it was in cold storage, was it?

RON SCHMELZER: In cold storage and became liquefied by the heat. And as we poured water on it to extinguish the blaze and naturally ran out of there and into the street and into everything that it would run into. We had an environmental problem there which was resolved.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Was there also a storage area for cheese as well?

RON SCHMELZER: There was cheese products involved. How many pounds of that? I really can't say. I don't know, several hundred pounds.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: So you'd have melted cheese and the melted butter at the same time.

RON SCHMELZER: I'm sorry. I just was told there is at least a million pounds of cheese in there, as well as cranberries, hams and wieners, et cetera, et cetera.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Did this give your people a problem in terms of fighting the fire if they had to combat the Butter River and the cheese?

RON SCHMELZER: It was a very major problem. I in turn operated at the rear sector where we anticipated we would stop this particular fire. And I'm happy to report we did our job. We did stop it there. But the firefighters themselves, with the pressure of the hose, two persons on the line the pressure took them backwards in a serpentine fashion and you could not control it. You just went sliding backwards.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Were they ankle deep in the in the butter and the cheese?

RON SCHMELZER: We have had people six foot two that came in with muck and butter and grease up to their chest.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: God, isn't it awful?

RON SCHMELZER: You never see anything like it. I've never seen a fire like this in my 25 years and I will never see one again. And probably the newest rookie on our job will never see another one like it.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Could you have gotten it under control faster if you didn't have to worry about all the butter and cheese and stuff?

RON SCHMELZER: Perhaps. But again, perhaps not. It did hamper our footwork, etc. etc.. But the intensity of the blaze and in the fuel that was in there, I mean, it was like a massive grease fire.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Now, on the other side, as I understand it, you had some frankfurters, some wieners.

RON SCHMELZER: Yeah, there were some of those products, one floating by me I know. And I just kind of chuckled at it, I guess.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Yeah. What a mess. Is it going to take a long time to clean it up?

RON SCHMELZER: We're probably going to be cleaning our equipment for several days, maybe several weeks, I don't know, trying to de-grease everything. And I'm sure some of our equipment will be ruined.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Oh it will.

RON SCHMELZER: I'm sure it will, because maybe some fabric hose will never be able to get the grease out. I don't know what we're going to deal with that in a little bit of time.]

CH: From May 6th, 1991, Michael Enright speaking with Ron Schmelzer, fire chief of Madison, Wisconsin, about what he called the Butter River Fire, which was ignited 30 years ago today.

[Music: Calm Music]

Athletes Outdoors Prep

Guest: Sophie Bukovec

CH: Sophie Bukovec has work to do. The elite beach volleyball player is prepping for a pair of upcoming international tournaments and has her sights set on the 2024 Olympics. But despite her best efforts to train safely, the pandemic continues to derail her plans. And a photo posted this weekend by Canadian Press photographer Frank Gunn has made Ms. Bukovec the centre of a debate over COVID regulations and their impact on elite athletes. We reached Sophie Bukovec in Calgary.

CO: Sophie, we have reached you in Alberta today, but this photo was taken at Woodbine Beach in Toronto. Can you just explain what is happening in this image?

SOPHIE BUKOVEC: Sure. The other day I went to set up a volleyball court. I'm a professional volleyball athlete. And as I was setting up my own personal court, I was stopped by a police officer and he told me to take down the court. Super nice gentleman, very respectful conversation. And I kind of just wanted to know what the restrictions were. And he had told me that the amenities on the beach were not able to be utilised. So I can use the sand, I can put down pylons, I can use my own personal volleyballs, but I cannot set up a volleyball court. He himself has a couple of high performance athletes as children, so he was very sympathetic to my situation and we had a very good conversation. But nonetheless, he did ask me to take down my personal court.

CO: Did you know that that was going to happen? Did you know that was the restriction?

SB: No. I think it was about a week prior, I mean, I had an awareness of what the restrictions were, but as a solo person going down for physical activity out on the beach, I didn't think that that was going to be an issue. A week prior, I was also stopped by a bylaw officer because I was again at the same facility and he called his supervisor and continued to let me train. So I had asked him the exact same question. I asked this officer and I got a different response. So for me, it was just kind of the lack of consistency that makes me a little bit confused as to what the rules and restrictions are. And I know that a lot of people, not necessarily just athletes, kind of feel the same way with how the restrictions are fluctuating.

CO: It sounds a bit arbitrary, doesn't it? So specifically, what you couldn't do was use these posts. And could you set up your equipment in another way? Could you use trees, for instance?

SB: I asked him that and he said no. So that would still be using the amenities of the beach. So what I did was I just drew the boundaries of the volleyball court with my feet and I simulated a set of lines being placed without actually using the physical line.

CO: So how is that different, how would that protect people from infection in a way that using the amenities wouldn't?

SB: Right. I guess it's just optics. If they were to let me train, they have to then explain to the rest of the recreational people who are out there also playing volleyball. So I do understand it in that regard. It's just frustrating for me because that's my livelihood and I can't work from home, whereas other people are able to do that. So that for me is where it gets a little bit interesting.

CO: In the frame of the photo, there don't appear to be other people or people are there but they're quite a distance away. So you were training alone, is that right?

SB: I was setting up the net by myself when he came over here.

CO: And close by to where you were on the beach in Toronto, there are other amenities where people are allowed to use them, right?

SB: Yes. So there's actually a boardwalk super close to where the court actually was, where there's people walking their dogs, running, and then 50 metres away, there's ActiveTO happening.

CO: What's ActiveTO for people who don't know that?

SB: ActiveTO -- they shut down parts of Lakeshore so that people are able to walk, run, ride their bikes in a safe way, socially distanced, but still stay active during this time.

CO: Okay. So the rules are difficult to follow, but for you especially because you can't train otherwise. What does that mean for you to not be able to get out and do your training?

SB: It's frustrating. It's been a frustrating year. Athletes are no stranger to resiliency and challenge, but it's been an exceptional year, not just for me, but for everybody. So it's been hard. I feel like I'm kind of had a little bit of a setback and I'm leaving for competition in about four weeks. So it's going to be interesting to see how things have kind of unfolded once I actually get out there to see what the results are.

CO: You were in Toronto when the photo was taken. Now we're speaking to you in Calgary. Why did you move?

SB: My beach partner, so my partner for these tournaments, she's based out of Calgary, so I decided, you know what? If I can't successfully train there, at least I can be with her in Calgary. I don't know what the restrictions are here. I don't know them all that well, but at least I can be here and we can do film, we can do other things to help us perfect our game before we go for competition.

CO: So it's possible that you can actually do the training you can't do in Toronto. You can use the amenities there -- is that what you're thinking?

SB: Hopefully. Again, I can haven't -- I just flew in -- I haven't looked at the restrictions all that intensely, but I was hopeful. I'm hopeful that that would be the case.

CO: What are your aspirations? You're training for what events at this point?

SB: There's a couple of tournaments at the end of the year that are Olympic qualification tournaments -- sorry, at the end of this month. So all of my training is to help me qualify for the Olympic Games.

CO: Which Olympics are you training for?

SB: My Olympics would most likely be 2024. Our top two women's teams are incredible and they've both pretty much solidified their spots for Tokyo 2021. So for me personally, it will be 2024.

CO: What has been the impact of COVID and all the restrictions on other people who are training like yourself and in Team Canada?

SB: I'm an independent athlete, which means I am not directly associated with our national team federation. So for me, I've had to actively go out and find other resources and support systems regardless of COVID. So then to have them taken away has been quite difficult. With athletes within the centre or the National Team Federation, they've been able to train inside. I have not had that luxury. Our top two women's teams have decided to train in different cities. So one of our teams is primarily based out of Los Angeles and the other is based out of Brazil. So they just actively have not even come home because they don't know what to do with the restrictions.

CO: And what do you think that these disruptions, how is it going to affect your prospects?

SB: It's going to be instrumental. Not being able to play volleyball consistently is very difficult. It is like riding a bike. But we're not just trying to ride a bike, I'm trying to qualify for the Olympics. So it takes a lot of hours on the sand in order to perfect your skill and perfect your craft. So to not be able to do that, I'm sure I'm going to see kind of a setback with that.

CO: Sophie that's too bad, and I hope that you're able to do some practising out there. I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

SB: Thank you so much for having me.

CH: Sophie Bukovec is a professional beach volleyball player based in Toronto. Today, we reached her in Calgary.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Sound of the day: La Vacinada

CH: A tourist is lost in the Italian countryside. He pulls over to the side of the road where a woman extending an olive grove and asks her for directions. The woman's shoulder is exposed and so begins a May December romance for our times in which May is Italian comic actor Checco Zalone and December is Dame Helen Mirren -- the esteemed British actor who, not surprisingly, does own a farmhouse in southern Italy. In the now viral antiviral video, upon spying her bare shoulder, the tourist enquires whether the 75 year old Dame Helen has been vaccinated. When she replies that she has, sparks fly. And the tourist begins a passionate serenade of La Vacinada: the vaccinated woman.

[MUSIC: Checco Zalone's La Vacinada]

CH: I love to dance with you Oh Vacinada, he sings. Face to face with this immunised old girl. I look at your body with the AstraZeneca antibody. Loses something in the translation. Nevertheless, he gave it a shot. And it's our Sound of the Day.

[MUSIC: Checco Zalone's La Vacinada continues]

James Talbot

CH: Nowhere else in Canada is seeing COVID-19 numbers per capita are staggering as Alberta is right now. There are more than 20,000 active cases there currently. And in the midst of the crisis, the province's former top doctor is one of many speaking out, calling for tighter restrictions that he says should have been brought in weeks ago. Dr. James Talbot is now the co-chair of the Edmonton Zone Medical Staff Association Strategic COVID Committee. He spoke with CBC News this morning.

JAMES TALBOT: [SOUNDCLIP: When we've been saying from the beginning is that they need to do what the other provinces BC, Saskatchewan our neighbour, Ontario and Quebec, who were hard hit have done, which is to go to more restrictive measures of the kind that were in the first wave -- so a lockdown. So we've been saying three things. One, if you're someone who wants to make sure that you don't get the virus and you don't infect the people that you love, go into voluntary lockdown. If you're a member of something, if you're a leader who can make decisions for your flock, if you're a faith based leader or for your city if you're a mayor or if you're a business for your employees and your customers, then go into something that looks like a lockdown. And we've been urging the provincial government to take effective measures and have the success that the other provinces have had in actually reducing the number of cases.

HEATHER HISCOX: What we've heard from the premier so far has been a regional approach, not a province wide lockdown. And most recently -- you're shaking your head. That's not enough in your estimation?

JAMES TALBOT: Four of the five zones are already over the peak that there were in the second wave. And the only reason Edmonton hasn't exceeded it was that it was very hard hit. So plus the positivity rate for tests is over 12 percent and the test results are being delayed. So the measures you count on when you're doing targeted stuff like contact tracing are happening late and we're missing cases. So three weeks ago was the time to go to more restrictive measures. We've already lost ground. There's no more time to wait.

HEATHER HISCOX: The premier is putting blame on people who have been breaking the rules. And the case in point, what we were just looking at in those videos, the video images out of Bowden and the rodeo, sort of the anti-mask protest rodeo is a matter of fact. What impact do you think that event could have in the province?

JAMES TALBOT: Well, I'm just going to talk about I mean, first of all, except for the fact that most of it was held outside, it's a super spreader event. But I'll tell you what I feel personally, I'm sad to see those kinds of pictures and sad for the people who attended who are going to get COVID. I'm sad for those who get COVID, who are exposed to the people who came to the rodeo in Bowden and the surrounding area. I'm sad for those who get long COVID. I'm sad for those who end up in hospital. And I'm sad for the people in that area who may have a complication for a pregnancy or a child who's involved in the cross exclusion or someone who has a heart attack four weeks from now who may not be able to get the care that they need.]

CH: That was Alberta's former chief medical officer of health, Dr. James Talbot, speaking with the CBC's Heather Hiscox this morning.

[Music: Synth Music]

Part 3: Tanya Talaga explores racism in Thunder Bay and her own Indigenous roots in Spirit To Soar

Hot Docs: Spirit to Soar

Guest: Tanya Talaga

CH: Tanya Talaga devoted years of her life to telling the story of the Seven Gallen Feathers. Seven Indigenous high school students who died in Thunder Bay, Ontario. She wrote a book about them and the indifferent and racist response to their loss. She toured the country speaking about how the deaths of those young people: Jethro Anderson, Reggie Bushie, Robyn Harper, Kyle Morriseau, Paul Panacheese, Curran Strang, and Jordan Wabasse fit into Canada's legacy of cultural genocide. And she's not finished with the story. For Ms. Talaga, the narrative is much larger. It encompasses her own family and the history and path forward for this country.

TANYA TALAGA: [SOUNDCLIP: Their stories touched something deep within me, something telling me I needed to go back to Thunder Bay and tell those stories and figure out who I am and figure out why my family became so disconnected from where we are from. My father was Polish, my mum Ojibwe. My indigeneity has been defined by fragments of loss, silence and what it means to be resilient. I saw it in my own family and in other First Nations families too.]

CH: That's Tanya Talaga speaking in a new documentary called Spirit To Soar. She sat down with Carol for a feature interview about her return to Thunder Bay and the legacy of the Seven Fallen Feathers.

CO: Tanya. Welcome to As It Happens.

TANYA TALAGA: Boozhoo. Thanks for having me.

CO: In that clip and in that opening part, your admission that the story of what was going on in Thunder Bay made you want to find out how you came to be so disconnected from where you came. What is it that made you think made that fracture?

TANYA TALAGA: Colonisation made that fracture. You know, the effects of the residential school system, the Sixties Scoop, being raised away from your community being raised away from people you didn't even know in your family until later on. That all came about because of what has happened in this country over the last 150 years since contact really in North America. So that is my disconnection. Yet it is my connection as well to First Nations families in the north and to what has been happening to our people.

CO: We will talk about what has happened within this country over 150 years. I want to understand a bit better about what is happening inside of you and what happened there. What is it in your own personal journey, what is it inside of you that made you aware that there was a fracture?

TANYA TALAGA: I think mostly that feeling of loss. That feeling of growing up -- why was my mom always so upset? There was like a piece of her I could never reach and I never knew what that was. But as a girl inside of me, I could see it, I could feel it, you know why she would cry sometimes. And when I was older in my early 20s, I remember she sat my brother and I down. She said, "I have some news for you. You have a sister." And it was just mind blowing to me. I could never have thought that that's what she was going to say. And when she told us that, actually I felt incredible wonder and joy. I mean, there's another one to me? There's another one of us out there, you know, where is she? Who is she? What's happened?

CO: And so this was an older sister you found?

TANYA TALAGA: Yeah, she was. My sister, Donna, was 10 years older than myself. My mother had her for a year before she was adopted.

CO: And your mother, also her brothers were taken up in the Sixties Scoop. And her parents, her family suffered through the residential school system. Is that right?

TANYA TALAGA: Mm hmm. And so, you know, when you look at all of these things, you see so many connections and you see the connections. You know, I start looking at my own family and what my family has been through. And then I look around and I see all the First Nations families that I know and people that I know -- I'm like, hey, you've had a similar experience. You know, you go to family reunions and people come seemingly out of the woodwork and you sit beside them and you find out they're your cousin and you didn't know who they were before. You didn't know, in some cases, that they even existed. It's a story, though, of coming together because my family, we have come together through that. I mean, meeting my sister was incredible. Meeting my mother's brothers was incredible and is incredible because it only adds to your family. And I know that our experience is also the experience of a lot of other First Nations families.

CO: This is what's important. The connection with the book you wrote and the documentary that back in 2011 you had an assignment with the Toronto Star to go north to Thunder Bay to cover the federal election at that time. You said in the documentary you felt sick to your stomach that when you got there, you didn't know about this other story that was so much larger than what was going on in that election. Why is it that you had that reaction?

TANYA TALAGA: How come this wasn't being covered? How come this wasn't at the top of all the news cycles? You know, why is it that I was hearing about this -- and you know that feeling, Carol, I know you know that feeling as a journalist when you find out something, a story, or somebody tells you something, you're like "That can't be true. You know, is this true?" When you hear something, when you uncover something, and then you think, well, there must be something written on this. And in this case, the fact that seven First Nations kids had died or gone missing at that point, it was six had passed away and a seventh Jordan Wabasse had gone missing. You think to yourself, this can't be. I mean, like, you know, there must be some satellite news truck hiding around the corner. And there was nothing. Nothing like that. Why? You know, yes, but I know why.

CO: But then also you have that feeling as a journalist, is this really what it seems then it would have been covered. So it can't be. But it took a while -- the nickle slowly drop for you, didn't it, during the course of that time up there and realising that there was this kind of holy cow moment, there was something you had really missed.

TANYA TALAGA: Mm hmm. For sure. And so I started to write about the seven. And, you know, I said something to my editor said, you know, that story you sent me up here to write -- well, I'm not writing that story. I've got this story. And the Star, to its credit, played the story big. And here we still are.

CO: Exactly here we still are, because the questions of what's happening in Thunder Bay, what happened to these young people, why have these children who went to school in Thunder Bay from the reserve die? What do we know all these years later? How much more do we actually know about what happened to them?

TANYA TALAGA: Hmm. Well, after the inquest finished the OIPRD, the Office for the Independent Police Review Director, went in and spent a couple of years investigating the Thunder Bay Police Force. And Dr. Gerry McNeilly led that review. He said that, you know, nine cases of Indigenous death, sudden deaths, should be re-examined. And so it's my understanding, actually, that report is going to be released rather soon, within a month or two as to, you know, what has happened. And of those nine deaths, four deaths concerning the Seven Fallen Feathers. So we're waiting.

CO: So many disturbing things. I mean, the details of those deaths investigated where police concluded, before they even had autopsies, they concluded that there was nothing suspicious in them.

TANYA TALAGA: Mm hmm. And we saw that again when the inquest was going on with the death of Stacy DeBungee -- a Rainy River man. Same thing. And we see it as well. We've seen those same press releases in Kenora, we've seen those same press releases all across this country. You know, there are so many parallels between this as well and murdered and missing Indigenous women and girls in Canada and the lack of investigations, the slow investigations, how families are feeling, the lack of contact with police, like many many parallels.

CO: The young people who died, not all of them, young people have been going to Thunder Bay from the reserve to get high school education. There's no high school on the reserve in their communities. And so they were compelled to do that. And you document how it was already scary to do that as a young person, even all the more scary that kids are dying. And so you talk to some of those girls who are there. And I want just to hear about what they had to say.

VOICE: [SOUNDCLIP: We have families. And we travel a long way from home to come to school. Like Thunder Bay is big. Like to me it's big. To most it's like a town, but it feels big. But I still feel alone. I feel unsafe, uncomfortable. I feel like I have to look over my shoulder every second or I'm going to, you know, get hurt. It scares me because my cousin went missing before, Jordan.]

CO: And those are teenage girls talking about living in Thunder Bay and going to high school there. And we know that the Thunder Bay police were revealed to have had systemic racism, which led to why those deaths of those young people hadn't been investigated. But what you reveal in the documentary and in your book is what it's like in general to be in Thunder Bay when you're Indigenous. What's it like for those girls?

TANYA TALAGA: I think that they spoke so incredibly well for themselves. And that's a part in the film that we actually opened it up to, we were at Dennis Franklin Cromarty High School and we were in the music room and we said to the kids, you know, "This is your moment. You can say anything you want to the camera and please just say anything." And this is what came out. You know, it was really incredible what the kids wanted to talk about: school, they wanted to talk about Thunder Bay and what it's like to be in Thunder Bay as a student and what it's like to be in a city that not necessarily welcomes you. You know, when you still get followed in the mall by security guards, when you are still targeted when you're walking down the street and somebody yells out a racial slur outside of their cars passing by. The school really is quite incredible to provide a family atmosphere for the kids. But it's really hard. I mean, imagine what it's like at 13-14-15 to travel from such far away community that's 400, 500, 600 kilometres away. And you come into town and you're alone and you're walking down the street and someone calls you a name, tells you to go back to where you're from. The ultimate irony being, well, this is actually Indigenous land, this is where we're from. And it is really tough. And I wanted to really focus the film on the bravery of the kids, the bravery of the youth. I mean, for just leaving home and achieving a high school education, that's incredible that they're doing this with such bravery in a place where they know, where they have families, they've experienced death just because they're Indigenous.

CO: What comes through in those clips with the girls is how little they're asking for. They're not asking for radical change, which, of course, they will maybe when they find their voice, know that that's what they have to do. What they're asking for is just to be accepted, to feel some warmth, to feel some community. And it's really touching just how simple their needs are and how difficult it seems to be that Thunder Bay provide that for them.

TANYA TALAGA: There's also one of the girls, she said, you know, "Get to know us. Even if you're still racist towards us, we'll be nice to you still." And that is such a heartbreaking yet uplifting point of the film, and she's like saying, you know, yeah, we know what it's going to be like and we are going to come right back at you with kindness, because that's what we do.

CO: You are listening to As It Happens. And I am speaking with Tanya Talaga about her new documentary called Spirit To Soar. And it's a return to the book she wrote about the Seven Fallen Geathers, young Indigenous youth in Thunder Bay. And one of the interesting things, really emotional things, is that you take us to the memorials of these young people who died. And I want to play a bit of one of the memorials for Paul Panacheese. And this is his mum, Maryanne.

MARYANNE PANACHEESE: [SOUNDCLIP: This is my first time being in Thunder Bay. On this day for 13 years, reliving the night I lost my boy. The racism that he went through. And I taught my son, don't retaliate. I told him, don't fight back. I know they were throwing eggs at them, calling them names. If a non-Native child came to our reserve, I don't think I would allow that because children are precious.]

CO: That was Maryanna Panacheese talking about her boy, Paul, who died in Thunder Bay. And what what can you tell us about Paul Panacheese?

TANYA TALAGA: Paul, was really close to his mom. Beautiful boy. Tall boy with glasses. He liked to draw. He was an incredibly smart kid. He loved his mother very very much. They were very close. He was 21 years old and he was still trying to finish his high school education. He had been living in 10 different boarding homes until Maryanne said enough, that's it, I'm going to move from Mishkeegogamang and I'm going to come into Thunder Bay and, you know, you're going to finish school. And he passed away suddenly. He had been out briefly -- really, really briefly. He had been out with a friend of his and he came back and he passed out and died on his mother's kitchen floor. It was a shock. And the medical examiners have no idea how he died, what killed him. He had been briefly out at a party, but very very briefly. But before he came back home, he actually woke us up because he had forgotten his keys. So he was pounding on the door. She came out of bed, opened the door and let him in. And he said, you know, I'm home. And then he went into the kitchen and started to make some Mr. Noodles. And then she heard a thud and she went downstairs and there he was. And the medical examiner, they still have no idea what killed her son.

CO: Five of the others drowned in rivers in Thunder Bay. And you visit those places to see them, to pay tribute. But also you realise this is home. This is where your mother comes from when you start to look around the landscape. So what impact did that have on you?

TANYA TALAGA: Animikii-wajiw and Mount McKay, it's looming. It's right there. It's this beautiful presence as soon as you step out of the airport at Thunder Bay. I mean, everyone sees it from miles and miles around. And so I was quite familiar with that. And when then Grand Chief of Nishnawbe Aski Nation, Stan Beardy and I, we took a drive down by the Kaministiquia River. And when we got out and we looked, you know, I looked up and where we were, it was like right in front of Mount McKay. And it was like something had hit my stomach. We have a deep connection to land and to place and to water. And being there and knowing that this is where the searchers from Cat Lake believe that he had last been seen, it was just this overpowering feeling of I have to write this story, you know, we have to tell the story. We have to scream this story from the rooftops and we have to tell people what's happening here.

CO: When you began telling the story of these youth in Thunder Bay, you were a reporter. You were working for the Toronto Star. And I think I saw you on stage just after your book came out. And it seemed to me, as you talked, that you were struggling, as many journalists do with that, trying to be the disinterested reporter, you're not supposed to be the story. And I think I've seen over these years, as you have explored more of this, that you have crossed the threshold, that you have left that world of journalism as we know it and gone someplace else. What's that journey been like for you?

TANYA TALAGA: It is clearly the path forward for me. There's no other choice. When I write and when I pursue stories, I do so from a place inside and I can't be untrue to myself. We have this myth of objectivity as journalists as well. But when you are touched by all of these events, when you are touched by a colonisation, when you've had the experiences that we've had, how can I not stand up and speak out? How can I not write from this perspective? There's really no choice here for me. And the more I move in that direction, the more right it feels.

CO: And I notice the transition from speaking about people who are going through this, the injustices, the experiences, the language change and he began to talk about "my people." How difficult was that? I mean, tell me a bit about what that transition was like.

TANYA TALAGA: Mm hmm. As a journalist, when you're writing stories about dislocation and writing stories about the Sixties Scoop and the losses that you have in your family and you look around and it's like, oh, it's the same with the other First Nations families. And so we're all world living the same experience. We're all living the same story, if you will. And so I realised, you know, like it's you got to stop that separation. I mean, why is that there? I mean, I'm part of it too. You know, my mother's family is part of it too. When you are experiencing the stories, you write with more heart and knowledge.

CO: There's another journalist in your documentary and she is not Indigenous, Jody Porter, who is a CBC journalist who we rely on tremendously for her reporting, for her knowledge. She's just been so solid over the years. But in the documentary, she's drawn out to talk about, to give some very important insights. I just want to play a bit of what Jody Porter told you in the documentary.

JODY PORTER: [SOUNDCLIP: And how many times do you have to rediscover the same problems, the same racism within the institutions that are supposed to be helping? Before you say, it's not them, it's us, it's us. And again, if you want to talk about how Thunder Bay is unique, it's because where the raw edge of that existential angst of what it is to be a Canadian. When your presence is so deadly to the people whose land you live on.]

CO: Just extraordinary. I never heard her give those kinds of sentiments before, as I say, her reporting is just so solid. And so maybe respond to her, what will it take to get Canadians to address that existential question that she poses?

TANYA TALAGA: I just want to echo your comments there first and say that I'm so grateful for Jody Porter's reporting over the years in Thunder Bay. And I think that she did the entire country of Canada an absolute public service by being in that courtroom every single day and recording the inquest and listening to what was happening. You know, I think that that gives her a very unique perspective for the incredible work that she did up north in Thunder Bay. To give her point of view, as she does, and she so beautifully does that -- explaining that Thunder Bay is the raw edge of that existential angst of what it means to be Canadian because the entire country is going through this. We are going through the truth telling process. Now, truths are hard and this is what we need to do. You know, everyone talks about truth and reconciliation. The truth part is the difficult part. And that's what Canada needs to get through. That's what Canada needs to hear. And Jody says it so perfectly. And it's a hard thing for Canadians to hear, you know, like you can't just point your finger and say this isn't Thunder Bay and it's in Thunder Bay only. That's not true. It's all across this country.

CO: You described the Seven Fallen Feathers as your ancestors. What do you hear from those ancestors? What are they telling you is your path forward?

TANYA TALAGA: Equity. Equity for kids. We have to make the worlds, we have to make Thunder Bay, we've got to make Canada a safer place for all of our children. Think of how great this country could be if every single child was given the same chance at life, the same chance to go to high school in a community that loves and welcomes them, a high school in your own community too. You know, why is it that we still have our kids in the north having to fly into Timmins and Thunder Bay and Sioux Lookout to go to high school? Why is it that they don't have access to doctors or to nurses or to clean running water? We have to fight for that change.

CO: But not just you, not just Indigenous people. What I hear in this documentary in your work is that and what Jody Porter says, it's if we all don't contribute to this, if we all don't pull this together, it's not going to happen.

TANYA TALAGA: Absolutely. You know, it's the will of the majority. You know, you can pass all the policies and the laws that you want in the world, but if the people don't stand up and say we need to change -- and I mean all the people -- we won't achieve anything.

CO: Tanya, it's good to talk to you. Thank you for your book, for your documentary, and for your insights.

TANYA TALAGA: Miigwech Carol. It's lovely to speak to you.

CH: Tanya Talaga is the co-director of a new documentary called Spirit To Soar. It's now screening at the Hot Docs Festival: hotdocs.ca. It will also air on CBC TV later this month. And you can find that interview on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

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May 3, 2021 Episode Transcript

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