Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2021

The AIH Transcript for April 27, 2021

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO:

Half measures. Rather than deal with the issue on its own, Ontario wants to split the cost of a paid sick leave program with Ottawa. The province's opposition leader says she's sick and tired of the excuses.

CH: Venting concerns. Two weeks after St. Vincent's La Soufriere volcano erupted, our guest paints a picture of the ash covered aftermath the island's prime minister has called apocalyptic.

CO: No hack. If you spend time online, you owe the late Daniel Kaminsky a debt of gratitude because he found a flaw in the Internet that made everything online vulnerable to attack. And then he fixed it.

CH: Daylight craving time. A Montreal woman stays in a cave for 40 days straight for the sake of science, and she says she'd do it again too, after she soaks up a little sunshine.

CO: Nipped it in the rosebud. Citizen Kane's perfect score on Rotten Tomatoes drops to 99 percent after someone digs up a review from 1941 from a crank who thought the movie was tough sledding.

CH: And oh, for crying out silently. Erring on the side of caution, the annual British Town Crier Championships will be carried out in silence this year. So we give a championship crier the chance to give it all he's got on the air. As It Happens. The Tuesday Edition. Radio that shakes it up baby with a twist on shouts.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: These volunteers spent 40 days in a cave with no sunlight or way to tell time

Ontario Paid Sick leave

Guest: Andrea Horwath

CH: Doug Ford's government has a proposal for Ottawa: double paid sick leave for Ontario workers and we will split the bill. As COVID-19 has spread in a brutal third wave through Ontario's essential workers, many doctors and advocates have been calling for a provincial paid sick leave program. Here's what Ontario's Labour Minister Monte McNaughton laid out instead at Queen's Park today.

MONTE MCNAUGHTON: [SOUNDCLIP: We don't want workers to choose between their health and the job. That's why we've approached the federal government. We're calling on the federal government to double the payments from 500-dollars to a 1000-dollars for four weeks of paid sick days. Mr Speaker, the province of Ontario will cover 100 percent of the costs of doubling this program. We join with other provinces like British Columbia to call in the federal government to be our partner to ensure that workers not only in Ontario but across the country are paid more than minimum wage. Mr Speaker, this will ensure that workers in Ontario who are sick will be paid 1000-dollars per week.]

CH: Ontario wants the federal government to expand its Canada Recovery Sickness Benefit program, which would mean the province could avoid forcing businesses to pay sick leave to their employees. Today, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau was vague -- he didn't turn down Ontario's proposal, but he didn't endorse it either. Andrea Horwath is the leader of the official opposition in Ontario and we reached her in Toronto.

CO: Ms. Horwath last week Premier Doug Ford promised the best plan in North America was on its way. Does today's announcement from Ontario's Labour Minister, does it reach that bar?

ANDREA HORWATH: Sadly, it does not. We know that the federal programme doesn't meet the needs of working people for many reasons. It's not a paid sick day plan. Certainly it's a sick benefit, but it's not going to meet the needs of Ontarians. And it's shocking but notwithstanding all of the feedback that this government's had, they still refuse to bring a proper paid sick day plan to Ontario.

CO: But the idea here is that this would be a partnership with Ottawa. And the Ontario government is saying this is a national problem and this is a national way of dealing with it. They're saying that they will team up with Ottawa on this Canada recovery sickness benefit program. What's wrong with that? What's wrong with this partnership?

AH: What we know for sure is that the program doesn't meet the needs of workers. I mean, paid sick days program needs to be one where the benefit is immediate. It has to be seamless. You shouldn't have to apply. Your paycheque should be guaranteed to be whole at the end of every pay period. And that's not what this does. It's quite the opposite. There are requirements around eligibility. There's an application process. So that means there's a time lag. I think it really indicates that this government just doesn't understand or is not prepared to acknowledge the reality of front line essential workers.

CO: But even though it's a flawed program and I think everyone agrees with that to varying levels, but this Canada recovery sickness benefit plan out of Ottawa at least, it's up and running. So isn't there a benefit given that something that is already there, that the most expedient way perhaps to get money into people's hands is to double up on this Ottawa plan?

AH: Why double down on a flawed program when you can implement paid sick days legislatively here in Ontario? The government of Ontario has now -- the Conservatives have now voted against paid sick days in our legislature here 25 times. Had they voted in favour of our bill on March 1st, we perhaps wouldn't have seen 955 more workers die of COVID-19. There's really an easy way to implement a program like this, particularly our bill, which says that employers would pay for the sick days and be reimbursed in Ontario during the context of a pandemic or an emergency order. But the government simply doesn't want to, you know, make its "stakeholders" unhappy.

CO: We requested an interview with Ontario's Labour Minister about this, he declined. But he did tell us his government's position about not wanting -- it is not burden businesses with the cost of paying their employees sick leave. What's your response to that?

AH: The problem here is that the Ford government has not wanted to spend the money necessary to fight this virus from day one. They have not wanted to spend the money on a proper vaccine rollout. They don't want to spend money on saving lives. And that's reprehensible. From my perspective, every life has value. And to suggest that the government doesn't want to pony up the necessary financial supports to save people's lives is extremely extremely troubling.

CO: Dr. Michael Warner, who has been tweeting and commenting a lot about his own patients. He speaks of a family where they're in their mid-40s, the father works in the factory, is the only breadwinner. The wife has got COVID now from the infection he brought back from the factory. They have a young child. They live hand-to-mouth. They make just enough money to get through and they need support. He cannot stop working. So if Ontario is not going to act on this immediately, why not see this enhanced federal plan in order to help that man?

AH: Because the federal program failed that man already, because that man would have to make an application, meet the requirements, which include a reduction of at least 50 percent of the hours worked and then wait for who knows how long to receive the payment. And I don't fault the federal government on putting together a plan for workers who would fall through the cracks of provincial employment standards enhancements with paid sick days. And here in Ontario, when we see exactly where this virus is spreading, who's getting it, how it's spreading through households, oftentimes multigenerational households, it's reprehensible that the government continues to refuse to make an easily accessible program that ensures that workers don't have to second guess whether or not they're going to be able to take home their entire pay, regardless of whether they're sick, whether they're getting tested, whether they're getting vaccinated. This is the kind of program that will help us stop the spread of COVID-19.

CO: Is there a fear or concern at the provincial level that if they do have a program of this kind, that you and others will urge them to keep it permanently? Is that part of the issue?

AH: Well, that might be you know, what Mr. Ford is thinking. I mean, it took 15 years and finally the Liberal government gave us two measly paid sick days. But as soon as Doug Ford was elected, he got rid of them. So we were heading it slowly slowly down the right track in regards to acknowledging that communicable diseases are a real thing. People shouldn't have to go to work when they're sick, not in 2021. But you'd have to ask Mr. Ford why he's so reluctant to do the right thing.

CO: The Globe and Mail reports that Ottawa had urged Ontario to provide a tax holiday for small businesses until the fall in exchange for providing sick leave. What do you think of that idea?

AH: Well, I think there's many ways to peel the orange. I think if you were, you know, committed to provision of paid sick days, there are many ways to achieve that in a way that helps the kind of the SMEs -- small and medium sized employers -- that might not be able to, you know, to bear the entire brunt of the cost. Certainly some of the bigger fish can do that. But this government doesn't even seem to want to engage in that kind of problem solving.

CO: We'll leave it there. Ms. Horwath thank you.

AH: My pleasure.

CH: Andrea Horwath is Ontario's leader of the official opposition. She leads the provincial NDP. She's in Toronto.

[Music: Calm Music]

Cave Dweller Volunteer

Guest: Marian Lancon

CH: Depending on where you live, it might feel like you've been trapped in a confined space cut off from the outside world and you're losing track of time. But participants in the Deep Time Project literally lived in those conditions for 40 days. On Sunday, the 15 volunteers emerged from a cave in southwestern France. They're now being analysed by scientists who are studying the limits of human adaptability and isolation. Marina Lancon is an expedition guide from Montreal who was part of the Deep Time Project. We reached her in Paris

CO: Marina after 40 days inside that cave, have you adjusted to daylight yet?

MARINA LANCON: Yeah, it took me one day or two to adjust better to the daylight. Actually coming out of the cave, the sun was really bright, so we needed to protect our eyes and wear some sunglasses. But now for like maybe two days after it's getting better and now I can remove sometimes the sunglasses. My eyes are adapting to the light.

CO: Were you happy to get out of there?

ML: Actually, not really. I wasn't that happy to get out of there. When they came to announce the end of the experiment after 40 days in the cave, it was kind of a shock. And I remember like thinking like, "Oh no, already?" So really, like, time went by so fast and I still had so much things I wanted to do in the cave.

CO: Like what? What were you doing in the cave for 40 days?

ML: Why we were in the cave was to study how the human being adapts to extreme environments. So without light and without the notion of time. Everyday we had some science to do. Basically, we had something that would monitor our sleep. For example, we had am actimeter like a watch on the wrist without time that would monitor also our movements. So that they would know exactly when we would be awake and active or when we would be sleeping. We needed to do also some tests about odours, so try and recognise different odours. We had some virtual reality to do also in the case. So they were analysing a lot of different things. And one of the last things that we did a lot was we had kind of a phone without any time on it. But every time we would go to sleep or every time we would eat something, we needed to fill out the form to tell them, 'Okay now I'm eating and what I'm eating, for example, if I'm going to sleep, do I think it's only a nap or do I think it's the whole night that I'm going to sleep?' Yeah, we had a lot of things to do in the cave.

CO: Did you know at the end of it that it had been 40 days?

ML: No, not at all. For me, I thought it was 29 days in the cave, but in reality it had already been 40. And some other persons in the group, they were at day 23, for example, and others at day 31. So we really had different cycles. And that was due to the fact that we would go to sleep when we felt the need and wake up when we felt the need and eat when we felt the need to. So everybody had its own rhythm.

CO: And what effect did that have on you physically? How did you feel within that rhythm?

ML: I felt pretty good. I felt a bit tired also from the environment, I guess from the humidity. It's 100 percent humidity and it's 10 degrees Celsius. So it's pretty cool. But I was kind of mentally doing good, you know, like I'm eager to see the results of the research. And those results will tell us really what happened in our body and in our mind -- what was going on. You know, because in the cave I felt like, Oh it's okay, everything's okay." But then one thing that I noticed on myself is a loss of memory. We needed to write at the end of the day what we had done. And if I forgot one day to write it down, then the next morning I would try to remember what I did the day before. But that was really hard for me.

CO: Did all of you get along?

ML: Yeah, exactly. Like, it's really surprising that a group of 15 people, different ages and different jobs, we came all from like really a diverse group and yes, we really got along well. So that's really really something positive.

CO: But a number of the tasks that you had to do, you had to do with others, right? You were cooperating and working with them. So was it difficult that you had to wait for other people to wake up because they were on their own body clock?

ML: Yeah, for sure. So we had different things to do. For example, we had to go and fetch water, so we needed to climb some ropes like 20 metres in the lake and fetch some water and bring it back to camp. So we needed to be three-four people. That was difficult because you never knew when you woke up who's waiting for you or what you need to do. So I would just wait for enough people to wake up and then have breakfast and that I would be like, "Hey I need to do this. Do you want to help me out?"

CO: Did anybody want to get out? Did anyone sort of say, "I can't take this, this isn't for me" and make any motions or any movements to leave the cave?

ML: No, no one tried to escape the cave. But I think we're like 15 people, right, so we all lived the experiment in our own kind of way. For me, that occured in my mind. But some friends of mine, for example, I know that they had sometimes those thoughts like, "Oh, I'd like to see the sun again," you know. But yeah, no one tried to seriously get out of the cave.

CO: But do you think that the 15 of you as volunteers, you would be a special kind of people, perhaps better adapted for this kind of experiment? Do you think it really does tell the scientists about people in general or just about people like you?

ML: No, about people in general. Like my experiment is like in extreme conditions -- I'm an outdoor guide, so I'm a lot in the outdoors. But most people in the group had never done an expedition in their life, you know. So that's what's really interesting is that we all have, like, I don't know, like special powers. And then as a group, we can make things work, you know.

CO: Do you have a desire to go back to the cave?

ML: Not now. You know, maybe in a few years. Why not make another experiment like this? But for now, I'm just happy to be out now.

CO: All right. Being in the sunshine in Paris in late April, early May sounds pretty lovely. So I can imagine you're enjoying it?

ML: [Laughs] Yeah. Yeah, it's really great.

CO: Thanks Marina.

ML: Great. Thank you.

CH: Marina Lancon is an expedition guide from Montreal and a team member on the Deep Time Project. We reached Ms. Lancon in Paris. And you can find more on the story on our webpage: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Drum & Bass Music]

UK Town Crier Silence

Guest: Alistair Chisholm

CH: By its very name, a town crier competition should involve some sort of crying and hollering and oh yaying. But this year's British Town Crier Championships will be held in complete silence. Now, usually town criers gather together to shout at the top of their lungs, which in the age of COVID-19 didn't seem like a great idea. So instead, criers have sent in their cries in writing. Alistair Chisholm is competing this year. He's Dorchester's Town Crier and a 10 time national champion. We reached him in Dorchester, England.

CO: Alistair, a silent town crier championship sounds like something that Monty Python might invent. So how is this going to work?

ALISTAIR CHISHOLM: Well, you're quite right. Well, I mean, it's going to be very different. And sadly, the bonhomie and the camaraderie and the socialising that we have enormous amount of fun with when we have a real competition won't happen. But nevertheless, you know, town criers are still around. And it was a very brilliant idea to just let's have a competition based on the writing of a cry.

CO: Isn't it a bit like having a song competition that no one sings, like writing songs that never gets sung? I mean, isn't that the same thing?

AC: [Laughs] Well, yes. When you say never gets sung -- I mean, I really hope that when the regulations allow, we will get together. I'm hoping we get an invitation to Ontario to do this.

CO: All right. Okay. I will put that in the works for sure. Now, as far as what usually happens when there is actually performing of the cries, can you just describe how one of these championships would work in a normal year?

AC: You know that the judges are carefully chosen for their expertise in these matters. They'll be, one, judging you for accuracy. So he or she will have a copy of the cry in front of them. And if you deviate in any way from what is written in front of them, then you will lose points. There is also a judge who will judge you on volume. And one of the most important things I think is probably inflection because inflection lends a bit of colour and shape to the cry and without inflection it is very difficult to to express the meaning of the cry. And so they will get together. They mark you out of ten or whatever, the points are added up, and in the end there's a winner. So it's not just how noisy you are. It's not purely the decibels or whatever it is. There is also the you know, the manner in which it is done, the intonation, the inflection and can everybody understand you. Because at the end of the day, town crying is very simple, isn't it? You need to be loud and clear.

CO: I'm going to turn down my volume apparently I need to [laughter] and get you to adjust yourself appropriately. And can you give us your best cry?

AC: My best cry. Oh well that was probably when I was -- 50 years ago -- when I was young. But here comes a cry. This is what usually takes place in competitions. One round is always what's known as the home cry that celebrates the town that you represent, which is an important part of town crying. Town criers are very passionate about the places they represent. And so this is my home cry for Dorchester in England and it goes as follows. [CRIES: Oh ya. Oh yay. Oh yay. Dorchester, an ancient place with Stone Age wooden henge stands beside the river from one hundred miles from Penge. We've Celtic Maiden Castle, sacked when the Romans came who built Findon of area, much of which remains. Through pestilence, fire, war, and striving to dreaded Judge Jeffery's and his bloody sizing. The Tolpuddle Martyrs, long owed their pardons, still haunt the court, the walks, the gardens. William Barnes's poetry keeps the dialect alive, while the cost of rage of hardy continues still to thrive. Today, the prince's pound berry is reaching to the West. I trust that you will relish Dorchester, one of the best. God save the Queen.]

CO: And I know you're done because you end with God save the Queen. That's the tradition. Did you do the hear ye, hear ye, hear ye at the beginning.

AC: Oh yay. You see, now, this is funny, isn't it, how people say, hear ye, hear ye. But that's quite a squeaking noise, isn't it? You know, hear ye, hear ye. It doesn't really get the voice warmed up, whereas oh yay is a much rounder, fuller sound. And that's actually the French, as you will doubtless know, speaking at least two languages in Canada.

CO: Now, where's your bell? Shouldn't there be a bell involved here?

AC: You're absolutely right. And I think I've taken my bell downstairs and I'm upstairs so I could walk downstairs and discover the bell because what is a town crier without a bell?

CO: I think there is appetite for your bell here.

AC: There is an appetite for it. Absolutely. [Rings bell] There you go. Now, are you ready for this? Because this is a bit noisy. I feel sorry for the crier for whom the bell is only ever a maximum of two feet away. So here it comes. Are you ready, Carol?

CO: I'm ready.

AC: Are you sure you're ready?

CO: I'm ready.

AC: Here we go. [Rings bell] Oh, you know, it's noises like that, that remind you of the phrase "silence is golden."

CO: Okay Alistair we'll let you go. I'm sorry you can't do your full on crying this year, but we will watch for you to return.

AC: Well, indeed. And I mean, I do remember I must say this, Carol, before I disappear, I came to a world championships held quite a few years ago now, I think the end of the 20th century and we're now in the 21st -- Sidney by the sea on Vancouver Island. And I have very fond memories of Canada, which has links with Dorchester of course, as you heard through the tall Parramatta who left this country and lived in London, in Ontario, which, I gather is almost next door to where you live. Is that right?

CO: Yes. Dorchester is a name that turns up in many place in London because of that.

AC: Carol it's been a delight talking to you.

CO: All right. You too. Bye Alistair.

AC: You stay well and enjoy the rest of the afternoon.

CH: Alistair Chisholm is Dorchester's town crier, and we reached him in Dorchester, England.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Positive Reviews

CH: There's no accounting for taste, but there is accounting of taste. That's what Rotten Tomatoes does, it looks at reviews of movies, calculates how many were positive, and expresses that as a percentage. At 100 percent certified fresh, you've got films like The Seven Samurai, The 400 Blows, Battleship Potemkin, and Paddington 2 all of which are solid, especially Paddington 2. You know what else is considered a pretty solid movie? Citizen Kane. Which is why it was also at 100 percent on Rotten Tomatoes...until recently. And it wasn't some modern day crank arguing it needed more CGI monsters either. Citizen Kane lost a point because somehow over the last few months, someone dug up a review from the Chicago Tribune on May 7th, 1941. "You've heard a lot about this picture, and I see by the ads that experts think it 'The greatest movie ever made,'" wrote the Tribune reviewer. "I don't. It's interesting. It's different. In fact, it's bizarre enough to be a museum piece, but it's a sacrifice of simplicity to eccentricity, robs it of distinction and general entertainment value." One long lost review from 80 years ago, and now Citizen Kane is only at a measly 99 percent on Rotten Tomatoes below Paddington 2. Still, you might want to check it out. It does lack a talking bear, but if some crank told you it lacks general entertainment value, well, you're just like Charles Foster Kane himself: misled.

[Music: Drum Music]

Part 2: St Vincent Folo

St Vincent Folo

Guest: Louise Mitchell

CH: St. Vincent's prime minister is using the word "apocalyptic" to describe what the La Soufriere volcano has done to his island. A series of eruptions that began on April 9th drove thousands from their homes as smoke and ash spewed into the sky. An estimated one in five people was forced to flee, either to safer parts of St. Vincent or to other Caribbean islands. Most have been unable to return. A thick layer of ash still covers not just their homes, but the farms that many on the island depend on for their livelihoods. And now the rainy season threatens to make the situation worse. Louise Mitchell is the head of the St. Vincent and the Grenadines Environment Fund. We reached her in the capital, Kingstown.

CO: Louise, the last time you went to look, what was the volcano La Soufriere up to?

LOUISE MITCHELL: I took a boat up the Leeward Coast of St. Vincent on Sunday, and I actually was able to see the volcano up close and well, when I say 'up close,' I mean, where I am now, I'm about 14 miles away. But I went to within a couple of miles of it. And essentially the volcano is still venting -- it's venting steam continuously, but the eruptions have subsided. Thankfully, we haven't had an eruption in over five days now. So that's really good for us. We had a series of eruptions from April 9th to April 22nd, and these were very huge eruptions that caused major disruption in our world here in St. Vincent and the Grenadines.

CO: And what dp the experts say? Do they say that it's over, that La Soufriere has calmed down and that you're not going to see any more of those eruptions?

LM: No, they have not said that. They have said that it is still in the eruption phase and that the alert level is still on red. But it definitely the eruptions have diminished in size and the space between eruptions has increased. So it looks as if things are getting better. But they are still on red alert for more eruptions. And they have recently issued a new warning of mudflows known as "lahar" within the river systems in around La Soufriere. So what's happening is because you have over, say, a foot of ash in the areas around surfwear and now the rain has started, there's a danger of mudflows which can cause even more destruction than just the falling of the regular ash.

CO: Good heavens.

LM: Yes, I know. And we are also, of course, dealing with the fact that we have over 14,000 persons who are displaced now living in the southern end of the island, volcanoes in the north. So we have all of these persons who are displaced, living in shelters as well as in private homes. So we're dealing with trying to find ways to help these persons feel okay in terms of having their basic needs met. But when you are displaced person, it is very difficult to find comfort when you are sleeping on a cot as opposed to your usual bed at home.

CO: If those people can go home when they can go on, what does it look like? We've seen some aerial footage of the ash just covering everything. Everything has gone from green to grey. What does it actually look like? Can you give us a sense of that?

LM: Well, in the red zone, everything is covered in ash and all of the vegetation is lost. You know, that's a very sad part as well is that we're an island that has beautiful biodiversity. And the entire top third of the island, the biodiversity is just gone -- everything is dead. So all of the agriculture in the northern part of the island is gone. So persons who have farms, all of their crops has been destroyed, a lot of their livestock would have died. And the good part is that most of the homes are intact. So the ashfall doesn't collapse your house the way a category five hurricane would, but they're covered in so much ash that it's an inhospitable environment to live in until there's a major cleanup. And of course, it's very difficult to clean up this ash because, you know, it affects your breathing, it affects your lungs. And the worry now, of course, is that even before the all clear will be given to clean up the red zone, the rains have started and the mudflows can cause greater destruction now than the ashfall did. And that's what the fear is now.

CO: Does that mean that those people who have been -- many of them there have been weeks away from their homes, does that mean because of the rains they may not be able to return?

LM: Well, they can't return because the all clear hasn't been given with the volcano. That's the main reason why they haven't been able to return. And now we're on a watch for these mudflows. So over the next 24 hours, there's a watch that's being put out. But presumably, once the weather clears and the sun comes out and the all clear is given, they can start going back. But right now, the all clear has not been given for the volcano. So persons are not able to go back to clean up their houses as yet within the red zone.

CO: Is the ash still falling?

LM: Right now in the green zone at the end of the island, no. But there just feels like there's still a lot of ash in the atmosphere because it's on the ground and when the wind blows up it blows Into the air. So because of COVID, the whole nation had face mask and thankfully we did because, you know, you absolutely need to use them now because of the dust that's in the air.

CO: And not just the particles, do you think there are things in that ash that would be threatening to people's health?

LM: The ash has been sent for testing. I believe it's been sent overseas and the results of that has not come back as yet. So I don't think we actually know as yet exactly what the ash from this eruption is made up of. So we're waiting to get that report.

CO: It's hard to imagine that things could get worse at this point, but I guess not just the rainy season, but hurricane season is upon us soon, isn't it?

LM: It is. And that is a devastating thing to even think about. So let's hope that doesn't happen, because with the COVID crisis, which has impacting the economy greatly and now the volcano erupting, we certainly cannot deal with a hurricane on top of this. And of course, the present danger right now is the mudflows prediction.

CO: Louise, I hope that things are straightened out and people can get to their homes sometime soon. I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

LM: Thank you Carol. Take care.

CH: Louise Mitchell is the head of the St. Vincent and the Grenadines Environment Fund. We reached her in Kingstown.

[Music: Bass Music]

Sofa Gate

CH: For a very long time, women in politics have fought for a seat at the table, but they're not usually fighting over a literal seat. Earlier this month, Ursula von der Leyen, the first female president of the European Commission, went to a meeting in Ankara. Video shows Ms. von der Leyen and the president of the European Council, Charles Michel, arriving for a meeting with President Erdogan of Turkey. They were there to discuss Turkey's decision to leave a convention on gender based violence, except there were only two seats provided for the meeting, which the two men promptly took. After an awkward moment, Ms. von der Leyen was relegated to a nearby sofa. Yesterday, Ursula von der Leyen talked about sofa gate in the European Parliament.

URSULA VON DER LEYEN: [SOUNDCLIP: I am the first woman to be president of the European Commission. I am the president of the European Commission. And this is how I expected to be treated when visiting Turkey two weeks ago like a commission president. But I was not. I cannot find any justification for what I was treated in the European treaties. So I have to conclude that it happened because I am a woman. Would this have happened if I had worn a suit and a tie? In the pictures of previous meetings, I did not see any shortage of chairs. But then again, I did not see any women in these pictures neither. I felt hurt and I felt alone as a woman and as a European, because it is not about seating arrangements or protocol, this goes to the core of who we are. This goes to the values our union stands for. And this shows how far we still have to go before women are treated as equals, always and everywhere. When I arrived at the meeting, there were cameras in the room. Thanks to them, the short video of my arrival immediately went viral and caused headlines around the world. There was no need for subtitles. There was no need for translations. The images spoke for themselves. But we all know thousands of similar incidents, most of them far more serious, go unobserved. Nobody ever sees them or hears about them because there is no camera, because there is nobody paying attention. We have to make sure that these stories are told too.]

CH: That was Ursula von der Leyen speaking to the European Parliament about attending a meeting in Turkey this month where she was not provided with a chair. It's been called sofa gate.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Dan Kaminsky Obit

Guest: Sarah Roberts

CH: The New York Times started its obituary for Daniel Kaminsky with a message, "If you were reading this online, you owe your digital safety to him." Mr. Kaminsky was a well-known researcher who found a significant security flaw in the Internet more than a decade ago. But beyond just his contributions to his field, memories pouring in on social media paints a picture of a remarkable human being, a man who always had your back. Mr. Kaminsky died last week at 42 of a diabetic condition. Sarah Roberts is Daniel Kaminsky's niece. We reached her outside Sacramento, California.

CO: Sarah, first of all, I'm sorry for the loss of your uncle.

SARAH ROBERTS: Thank you, I appreciate hearing that.

CO: You wrote a statement that your family is trying to navigate a world without Daniel. What do you mean by that?

SR: We're trying to navigate the reality that Daniel is no longer a text or call away, and it's a hard adjustment. [Chokes up] It is. But I know he's still with us and he lives on through me and my brother and mom, so it's just hard to adjust to a new reality where he's not so easily reachable.

CO: And he was like that he was just somebody who could just reach at any time, reach out to and he'd give you a hand.

SR: Oh constantly. I shared endless amount of information that I found interesting with Daniel. And it's something I truly value because I think a very poignant part of who Daniel was, was that he was not only accepting, but he never made anyone who he was talking to feel like they were less than. Everything I said to him, he treated me as an equal.

CO: There's a little bit of a video of you and your uncle when you're very young and you're talking about what it's called domain name system or DNS. And I just want us to have a listen to you and Daniel talking about that.

DANIEL KAMINSKY: [SOUNDCLIP: I'm security researcher Dan Kaminsky, and I'm here today with my niece, Sarah.

SARAH ROBERTS: Hi, everybody.

DANIEL KAMINSKY: Hey, Sarah. So Sarah here has an important message for all of you.

SARAH ROBERTS: Fix your DNS is so cool.

DANIEL KAMINSKY: What's DNS Sarah?

SARAH ROBERTS: Wow Uncle Daniel, I think you should know.

DANIEL KAMINSKY: Be that as it may, why don't you tell people a little bit about it?]

CO: How old were you when you had that conversation with Daniel?

SR: I was 10 years old. Yeah, I didn't realise the gravity of the situation when we were filming that, but soon after I became aware of how important 2008 was for Daniel.

CO: In 2008, your uncle discovered a fundamental flaw in the Internet -- absolutely something that would have taken down all of our security. And that's what you're talking about in that, that he found this and was able to alert the world, but they had to have a kind of secret meeting about it, right?

SR: Yeah. He had an opportunity when he found this flaw to honestly exploit it, and he didn't. He kept it a secret and he informed the people he knew that could help him fix this problem. I truly didn't not even know that he held this power in him until, you know, many years later. But essentially him choosing and following his heart and his moral compass, which I think is out of this world, he saved us all with that decision.

CO: When he notified the people in the system, in Internet, at Microsoft and elsewhere, they said that they realised they were looking down the gun barrel of history when your uncle alerted them, and that not only did he alert them, but then he figured out how to patch it, right?

SR: He did, yes. He had a knack for looking at issues or problems in our world, and just finding a solution to it, multiple solutions even.

CO: You went with him to conferences after that, how was he treated? How was he received?

SR: Well, when I went to the Black Hat Convention in Las Vegas in 2008, I remember clearly walking into a packed room and the energy that that room produced, I think it really sunk in me in that moment that what I was witnessing and a part of was life changing and world changing. And I think it's also important to note that everything that he did regarding DNS, along with every single other one of his projects, he did nothing for profit. It was simply for the betterment of our society.

CO: Apparently, his mom says that he taught himself to code at the age of five.

SR: He did. Yeah, it's pretty wild.

CO: And then there was this scene apparently when he was 11 when your grandma got a call about how he seemed to have hacked into the network of the western United States.

SR: Yeah, that was wild in itself. And at age of 12, Daniel, this was before you could communicate and talk with other folks on the Internet. But he used bulletin boards to communicate with grown men about the Internet and ways to improve it at that point because he was only 12 years old. And my grandmother recently reminded me of this story and she said that she received a letter in the mail saying, "Daniel Kaminsky, I'm looking forward to meeting you on Thursday. Your ideas are so innovative and I'm so excited to hear more about what you have to offer to us." And she said, "Daniel, who is this?! Why are you talking to people?" And he said, "Oh, that's from my bulletin board. I've been talking to them about the Internet." And of course, at that time she said, oh, my gosh, no, my 12 year old cannot be communicating with these adult men. So, yeah, I think that's another story that speaks volumes to the genius that he is.

CO: He was a genius. He was an IT superhero for what he did. But everything that's online, all the tweets about your uncle are talking about how kind he was. Is that the uncle you remember?

SR: Oh 100 percent, most definitely. Daniel was a light for so many people, myself included, and I think he brought the human side to computers. He didn't have a mean bone in his body. Like I said earlier, he respected every single person's opinion, regardless of their background or views. He accepted them for what they were.

CO: Sarah he just sounds so remarkable. And I again, I'm sorry for your loss and I appreciate you talking to us about him. And thank you.

SR: Yes, thank you so much.

CH: Sarah Roberts is the niece of the Internet security researcher Daniel Kaminsky. We reached her outside Sacramento, California. Mr. Kaminsky has died at the age of 42.

[Music: Piano Music]

Allison Furey

CH: Newfoundlanders and Labrador Islands are a caring bunch, even when showing that friendship means getting on a plane and flying into a COVID hotspot. That's what a group of doctors and other health care workers did today. They're going to Ontario to help the province's overstretched hospitals deal with a surge of sick patients. And one of the doctors is married to the premier of Newfoundland and Labrador. Dr. Allison Furey spoke to the media this morning before her flight.

ALLISON FUREY: [SOUNDCLIP: As most people know, Andrew and I are pretty involved with Team Broken Earth and have been doing medical relief missions for the last 11 years of our life, it's been pretty integral, you know, at our dinner table. And so when an opportunity comes to help your own country, you know, I'll raise my hand for that. It's an opportunity to help our people. And they've cried out for help. I've followed my colleagues up there and they're struggling and they have been for over a year. So if I can go and relieve somebody up there of their -- you know, give them some reprieve, then I'm happy to do that. Well, I've been reminded by my colleagues and I've reminded myself that medicine is medicine wherever you go. And so there's infection control measures that we follow here in Newfoundland, which they follow there in Toronto is a national standard. And I'm really confident that I'll be very safe and that I have a skill that I can help in Ontario. And I'm not really that worried. It's usually me helping him prepare to leave. But last night it was a bit surreal, him helping me get ready to leave. So I'm sure it is a bit of fomo happening. And generally it is him that goes. So it will be a little bit different to have mom out of the house, but that's okay. My colleagues have been very supportive. I wouldn't be able to do this trip without them. All of the nurses in the department and the physicians have been very supportive. And I know that there's a couple that have also put their names forward. So we'll see how that unfolds over the next weeks. I think we've all been kind of mentally preparing for COVID over the last year as physicians and health care workers. As we have seen here and elsewhere it can spike at any time. And, you know, this is our job. It's just what we do. I'm vaccinated so I'm not terribly worried about getting sick. I will be completely protected when I'm in contact with patients with COVID-19. So that isn't a fear that I have.]

CH: That was Dr. Allison Furey speaking to the media in St. John's this morning. She's part of a group of health care workers who are travelling from Newfoundland and Labrador to Ontario to help with COVID patients. She is also the wife of Premier Andrew Furey.

[Music: Synth Music]

Carly Ackerman

CH: Alaska Governor Mike Dunleavy recently described Hyder, Alaska and Stewart, British Columbia as one community in two countries, and he's hoping that by sharing Alaska's vaccines, the Canadian government will come to agree. Since the beginning of the pandemic, residents of the two isolated towns have been pleading with the Canadian government to let them create an international bubble. So far, those pleas have gone unanswered. So on a recent trip to Hyder with Alaska's chief medical officer, Governor Dunleavy offered up vaccines to Canadians living in Stewart. He told the Associated Press that he's hopeful this means the two communities can, "Get back to living life as normal." In August, we spoke with Carly Ackerman, a dual citizen who lives in Stewart, BC. She told us what the border shutdown means for her community.

CARLY ACKERMAN: [SOUNDCLIP: It looks like restricting people from their everyday functions of life in our little corner of the world. We recognise one another. We are the same people. We are from the same families. Generations of families have lived here together on either side of the border. And they don't feel necessarily like that border has been an obstacle to day to day living.

SUSAN BONNER: Under what conditions can people cross the border?

CARLY ACKERMAN: There are, of course, essential industry reasons. Residents, however, are extremely limited in what they are allowed to do. Right now that allowance is a single trip by one member of the household into Stewart, no more than three hours with no socialisation permitted, no recreation permitted -- simply to get fuel and groceries and if there is any urgent medical needs that need taken care of. There are no groceries un Hyder. There is no ATM in Hyder.

SUSAN BONNER: You know, you're living in this isolated part of BC and Alaska and you've painted quite a strong picture of how you need to cross the border for basics like gas and food. What's it been like emotionally for the community?

CARLY ACKERMAN: The emotions are the hardest part, really, and it's so difficult to have these conversations without becoming emotional about them because we are frustrated by these restrictions that are imposed on our community that don't seem to make the same sense that they do make in other parts of the world. We feel lost and alone from one another. We feel divided. We feel desperate and a lot of ways to be heard, to be recognised. And I think if this continues much longer, the mental health toll will start to have a more evident effect. We are a very, very small community. We rely on one another. We need the government of Canada to see this and to recognise it and to agree with us and grant us that designation.]

CH: Carly Ackerman in Stewart, BC speaking with As It Happens guest host Susan Bonner in August.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Part 3: Her dad suddenly started building his own coffin — so she made a film about it

Hot Docs: Rockin the Coffin

Guest: Cailleah Scott-Grimes & Ron Grimes

CH: Filmmaker and illustrator Cailleah Scott-Grimes has always known her dad had an eccentric side, but he can still surprise her, like when he casually mentioned a little project he was starting. He was going to build his own coffin or at least to build a coffin himself.

CAILLEAH SCOTT GRIMES: [SOUNDCLIP: You took mom out into the backyard, lay down, and asked her to measure the length of your body with your cowboy boots on. It was so strange to me that you would be out collecting these building materials for a coffin during COVID, during a time which would actually put you at risk. So I had to wonder if this was actually some kind of preparation for death.

RON GRIMES: Sometimes it's very difficult to say, "Hey, old buddy, let's talk about death" because everybody wants to flee if you do that. When my friend and I would go to the wood shop or we go to cemeteries, the aim was practical. But the consequence was actual conversation about living and dying.]

CH: Cailleah Scott-Grimes and her father in a scene from Rockin' the Coffin, a documentary short by Ms. Scott-Grimes that will appear next week in the Hot Docs documentary film festival. We reached her in Toronto. Her father, Ron Grimes, was in Waterloo, Ontario.

CO: Ron, where is your coffin right now?

RON GRIMES: My coffin, I'm looking straight at it.

CO: Is it finished?

RON GRIMES: Yeah, it's small. I never did make a full sized one because the wood, we just ran out of wood, so we made small ones. We have a dog size and a cat size. We have three coffins here, one of which Cailleah made.

CO: You set out to do this project, why? What were you thinking when you decided you want to build this box?

RON GRIMES: Well, I do lots of projects around the house. Like every year I'm making something out of copper or I'm restoring old chairs that I found at the side of the road. So in the beginning, it was just something to do with my hands. And of course, during COVID you have to think about, well, what else am I doing? Is this for me? Who is this for? And it didn't bother me to think that I might die, but it did bother me to think Cailleah or her brother or her mom might die.

CO: But then you'd think that you would want to avoid things that would remind you of death, wouldn't you?

RON GRIMES: Well, not me, I mean, a lot of people want to avoid this, but I was a chaplain in a hospital, so I got used to seeing death around me, so I wasn't really bothered by that.

CO: Cailleah I'm going to bring you in here. Were you bothered by that, this project of your father's to build the coffin?

CAILLEAH SCOTT GRIMES: Well, certainly, you know, when I first got an email around March of last year where he said, "Hey, I've gone out to buy the wood with my buddies and this is what we're building." And I really did sort of think it was a joke at first. And when I realised it was a serious project, I didn't really know how to react. I didn't know how I felt. And I knew I wanted to have a conversation with him. But because I didn't know how to initiate that, I actually started with drawing. So I pulled up a blank page and kind of just let my imagination run free and some of those drawings became the foundation for the animation that's in the film. And so even though I did feel really uncomfortable about the topic, I found that through drawing and creating these animations, I was able to better access, I guess, how I felt and make new discoveries about that and better able to start a conversation with him.

CO: But this is all happening, as both of you have just mentioned, at a very bleak time where people are contemplating this because of this pandemic. And so at what point Cailleah did you think, as your father said, "Hey, old buddy, let's talk about death," -- at what point did that become a plan for the two of you?

CAILLEAH SCOTT GRIMES: Well, I made a very short piece at first -- a short animation piece -- and sent it to him. And I said, you know, this is my response. What do you think? And he sent something back to me. And we have a history of filming together, actually, it's kind of a way of connecting ever since I was a little kid. And so we thought, you know what, this feels like another time when we better get the cameras rolling.

CO: So you felt that this was a film, there was a film, and you wanted to do the animations. And we should point out that they are quite lovely and they describe this story, and your imagination, I guess in part this idea of your father lying down on the grass and your mom measuring him for the box with his cowboy boots on and all of these things that you did in the animation. But you took it one step further. In the conversation between the two of you, it gets quite emotional, isn't it?

CAILLEAH SCOTT GRIMES: Mm hmm.

RON GRIMES: One of the tricky things was that we were both using cameras, so the cameras were switching back and forth between her and me. So one of the difficulties was expressing emotion while documenting emotion.

CO: But at the same time, what's most important is the exchange that's going on between you. And how meaningful is that?

RON GRIMES: Well, I would say it was very meaningful. In fact, the process is a lot more important than the product. This brought my daughter and me together and in fact, had brought the whole family together.

CO: And Cailleah for you?

CAILLEAH SCOTT GRIMES: Yeah it was just incredible for me. You know, I thought maybe, you know, as an artist that my sort of practise would shut down during COVID and that I would be completely disconnected from the family. And that's kind of the worst thing I can imagine. And instead, it was just this incredible way to go on. It's sort of a deep deep dive and revisit all of these things to, from our childhood in the way that we used to also talk about death and hard topics like throughout the course of our lives. So I think it was a very transformative project for everyone in the family.

CO: And there's a little clip in this, because this is not the first time you have talked about death in your family and not the first time there's been movies made because there's a clip of a film your father shot when you guys were kids. And I just want to play a bit of this. This is, I guess, you and your brother talking about death when you were children.

VOICE 1: [SOUNDCLIP: What happens when you die?

VOICE 2: You turn into soil.

VOICE 1: Your turn into soil.

VOICE 2: I think so. Compost.

VOICE 1: And at the end of it, when you die, that's it?

VOICE 2: Well no. You turn into something else in your life again, but you're not what you were before ever again.

VOICE 1: Really?

VOICE 2: You turn into like a TV or something like that. An TV isn't alive. Like a reindeer. I guess you have to go to whatever you want to be. So if you want to be a reindeer, you have to go to a reindeer.]

CO: [Chuckles] Okay. That was you as children, you and your brother, talking to your dad, interviewing you years ago. Ron, what brought that on -- that conversation when they were kids?

RON GRIMES: Well, basically, I bought a new video camera which is sitting right here in front of me. That was my new video camera and I just set it up and they saw me just practising with it. And they said, Bran said, oh, we want to be in the movie. We really want to be in the movie. So I just turned the camera around and I asked them all the questions that I couldn't possibly answer. And as kids, these answers would just spew right out of their mouths. So they were hugely funny. And we've been carrying on these interviews now until they're 30.

CO: Most people don't talk to their children so frankly about these things. But this also came about because of a dead squirrel, right?

RON GRIMES: That's right. The squirrel the kids were burying in their backyard and the neighbour just across the street, she saw the squirrel in the yard and she said, what are your kids doing? What are your kids doing? I said, I don't know, what are they doing? And so I walked around the backyard and there were Cailleah in Bran doing a funeral for a squirrel. And I said, well, that's a better funeral than you can possibly have for a human. And there was Bran whirling this thing around his hand. I said, what is that? And he said, that is a spirit caller.

CO: So this is what was going on. And so this is the sort of thing you encouraged with your kids, these kinds of explorations of the afterlife?

RON GRIMES: Yeah, I think ritual is very close to play. So we've taught our kids from early on that playing and ritual are cousins, that they belong together. If you're going to learn to ritualise, you have to learn to play. I run a ritual studies lab and that's the first thing we do is learn how to play with ritual.

CO: But this all now comes to bear in this moment of this coffin that you were building. And this conversation started. And I just want to ask you, Cailleah, about the sadness, because you obviously get quite overwhelmed at some point. What brought that on?

CAILLEAH SCOTT GRIMES: Yeah. I think it's a topic if I think of losing my parents or, you know, anyone who I love, it is something that no matter how many times I revisit that topic and try to become at peace with it, it still always brings new sense of pain, you know, even though I've tried to process it. And so part of what I try to do is just allow that to come and to appreciate that kind of as an indication of how much I love them. But, yeah, certainly it's something I didn't want to hide in the film. There's that kind of like the lighter, more whimsical part of the childhood discussions. And then there is that kind of reality that hits me every once in a while. And yeah, I'm kind of glad that my dad was there to witness that in person. You know, it's an important moment to be there together for them.

CO: And Ron, you mentioned earlier that this time you spent crafting this coffin it wasn't a reflection on your own death, you were thinking about your members of your family and the potential for their demise. So what have you learnt from it? What changes has that brought?

RON GRIMES: Well, I've learnt to speak more frankly about death. I have neighbours across the street who saw me out standing on the driveway and they would come over and talk to me. So I've heard tears across fences, tears across the street, just talking about the fact that crazy old Grimes is over there building a coffin.

CO: [Laughter] And what did you explain to them when they asked you about your coffin?

RON GRIMES: Well, at first they were totally freaked by it and and gossiped about it. But eventually I would call them across the road and say, well, I'm building a coffin, it's not for me, it's not for you, but it's something to think about death. And so often they would stand there and we'd have these conversations about death.

CO: Cailleah what has all this brought out in you? Not just seeing your father build the coffin, but I guess the conversation that came from it.

CAILLEAH SCOTT GRIMES: It's been incredible to me connecting with people over the film and just seeing all the kinds of meaning that they're able to find. And it just feels so good to express something that we're maybe just holding in and we don't know how to say it. And I finally found too that the film has been kind of a window for people to talk about other difficult topics, not just death -- it could be anything. And to kind of encourage people like, you know, maybe there's a tactile way or creative way to think about it if we don't know where to start.

CO: Ron, are you going to finish the coffin, the one that's made to measure with your boots on?

RON GRIMES: [Laughter] I mean, wood is very expensive these days, so I probably will not make it. So I don't think I will build a real casket.

CO: All right. So you didn't get a coffin, but you got a movie.

RON GRIMES: I got a movie and I got two or three mini coffins.

CAILLEAH SCOTT GRIMES: Well, if you invite me when COVID is done, I'll come build the big one with you. But we need somewhere to put it. [Laughter]

CO: Well, that's quite an offer. No, not many daughters are offering their dads to help making their coffins. [Laughter] Good talking to both of you. Thank you.

RON GRIMES: Well, thank you.

CAILLEAH SCOTT GRIMES: Thank you for having us.

CH: Filmmaker Cailleah Scott-Grimes was in Toronto. Her father, Ron Grimes, was in Waterloo, Ontario. Rockin' The Coffin is part of this year's virtual Hot Docs Documentary Film Festival, which begins on April 29th. You can find out more about the documentary on our webpage: cbc.ca/aih. And keep your ear out for more Hot Docs coverage on As It Happens in the coming days.

[Music: Piano Music]

Listuguj Church Fire

Guest: Darcy Gray

CH: One video shows the church in flames and then a few creeks, the steeple leans, tilts and crashes down and fire bursts into the sky. That was the scene overnight at St. Anne's Church in Quebec, the largest and tallest structure at the centre of the Listuguj First Nation community near the New Brunswick border. Chief Darcy Gray lives close to the church. We reached him. Listuguj.

CO: Chief Gray, what is the mood in your community today after this fire?

DARCY GRAY: There's certainly a heavy feeling, the feeling of loss, mourning, grief, just sort of trying to process what seems unbelievable to most.

CO: Just watching the video that somebody has put out online is so distressing to see that fire. At what point did you learn that the church was on fire?

DG: I actually live very close to the church, so I could see the emergency lights outside -- the police lights and then I went outside to see what was going on and saw the fire department approaching and then being directed to go around to the back. So as soon as the call was made, basically I was aware that something was amiss.

CO: And were you there when the tower went down?

DG: Yeah, I had spent most of the evening up until about 3:00 a.m. outside. The first responders there, front line responders, and speechless as you saw it, just crumbling and, you know, being consumed by the fire.

CO: How many different volunteer fire departments were out there trying to put out that fire?

DG: We had three different fire departments collaborating. The collaboration was amazing to watch. We had our fire department in Listuguj, we had the neighbouring municipality Pointe-a-la-Croix send theirs almost immediately, just knowing the magnitude of the potential for the magnitude of the fire. And then when it was clear that the fire was going to catch throughout the rest of the church we had, the Campbellton fire department over from the New Brunswick side came and joined and provide tremendous support. And they all stuck through right to the end.

CO: And they were able to prevent that fire from spreading any further, I guess.

DG: Yeah. You know, at some point it became more about containment and suppression, protecting the neighbouring houses. It was great to see, you know, we had our fire department that was there ensuring houses wouldn't catch, you know, making sure the rooftops were kept moist and wet. And then the other two departments, you know, trying to bring down the flames and minimise, you know, the potential for damage in the neighbouring buildings.

CO: What is left of St. Anne's Church today?

DG: Just the original stone structure that's been there since the 1900s -- early 1900s. Anything that could have burned seems to have been consumed. We're hoping that, you know, some of the documentation and old records and things like that might have been stored in a vault or a safe and that we could recover some of that. But as of now, you know, it's just the walls are still standing made out of stone and it's kind of an eerie sight to see.

CO: And what else do you think has been lost besides the parts of the church other than the stone parts?

DG: I think the sense of togetherness, the sense of community that the church had provided for many generations. It was more than just a place of worship or gathering for religious ceremony. It was a place of a lot of community event, a lot of good memories, you know, weddings and gatherings and feasts and bingos and, you know, you name it, graduations. You know, I think everybody the community is tied in some way and we're all feeling a sense of loss to something that played an important part of our lives.

CO: And you mentioned documents and whatnot. Do you know what may have been lost in the way of just your documents from your history store? I understand some documents had stories from your elders, things of that nature.

DG: Yeah, we also had an organisation in there -- [inaudible] the only secretariat that had been there for 20 years. You know, they did some studies and research and gathering stories and information from our elders and our knowledge keepers. And, you know, there's been efforts to digitise those records and hopefully, you know, that was all completed. Nevertheless, you know, loss of those original documents and information is a tremendous loss to us in the community.

CO: There's quite a history behind this church, isn't there? I mean, you said in your press release today, you said, The relationship between the Catholic Church and many Mi'kmaq, is "complex and sensitive." What can you tell us about the history of this church and its connection to your community?

DG: I guess the connection to the church, you know, or to the Catholic Church in general, there is a long storeyed history there. If you go all the way back to 1610 with the Mi'kmaq Concordat, where, you know, we had an agreement in place and it outlined the relationship between the Mi'kmaq and Catholicism, you know, going as far back as 1610. But here locally in the community, the church was a hub. It was an important place, it was a place of prominence, you know, central to the community. And then, you know, not everybody is perhaps as religious or as committed to attending events as they used to be for various reasons, you know. And I think, you know, going forward, that's something that we've struggled with and we struggle with. But seeing beyond that are the silver lining is that the church was more than just a place of religious worship. It was a hub for us. It was a gathering place for us and many generations.

CO: Do you have a personal memory or thought about that church, a connection with it?

DG: My family volunteered a lot and helped out a lot throughout my childhood. So, yeah, I have a lot of memories of going there and helping out with my mom and my dad. My dad's office, although he worked for the federal government, he was in the church for a number of years. So to me it was a place I was comfortable with and went to quite a bit and have some fond memories.

CO: Do you have any idea how the fire started?

DG: It seems to have started in the living quarters kitchen area. We're going to have an investigator come in and look and explore and see what we can determine was the cause of it. But just based on where the initial smoke was building out of, it seems to have started in the kitchen. And hopefully we can track down exactly how it started.

CO: Is there enough left of the church to rebuild it?

DG: It's unknown right now just how significant the damage is. When one of those steeples fell, it fell into the church and we suspect it went right through the floor into the basement. Reconstructing from what's left will be a tremendous task.

CO: Chief Gray I'm sorry this has happened to your community. And it really was awful to see that burn and that steeple come down. I appreciate you talking to us. Thank you.

DG: Thank you for the opportunity.

CH: Darcy Gray is the chief of the Listuguj Mi'kmaq government. We reached him in Listuguj, Quebec.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Katherine Barber

CH: If we ever had a question about, say, how to properly use the word impact, why we as Canadians spell favourite with a U or really any musings about the strange rules of the English language. As It Happens, knew who to call: Canada's word lady, Katherine Barber. Katherine Barber has died of cancer. She was 61. Ms. Barber was the editor in chief of the Canadian Oxford Dictionary and a regular on CBC Radio, including on this program. In 1998, As It Happens, had a pressing question. It started with a scandal in the Ontario Public Education System. A grade five textbook listed the pronunciation of the military rank as Lieutenant, which of course left us with the question Why do Canadians pronounce it, Leftenant? So we got Ms. Barber on the phone.

KATHERINE BARBER: [SOUNDCLIP: These two pronunciations have existed in the language ever since the word came into the language from French, which was in the 1300s. And the first two quotations we have, one of them is Lieutenant -- and the other is Leftenant. And the theory is that it had something to do with the way the word was pronounced in old French. And often the English had difficulty pronouncing some of the sounds that the French pronounced. Whatever found the French made at the end of the word lieu oo or however they pronounce it back then was something that the English might have...

MARY LOU FINLAY: Approximated.

KATHERINE BARBER: Approximated. In some cases by saying a V or which would become an F because it was next to a T. As to why the leftenant pronunciation has established itself as the only one in Britain and lieutenant is the only one in the United States, we can't really put a finger on that. We can only assume that perhaps the settlers who came from England to North America came from a part of England where the lieutenant variant was stronger than the leftenant variant. And of course in Canada where we're caught between the two, as with so many other things. We have both existing in Canadian English.

MARY LOU FINLAY: Where? Other than in the Ontario textbooks bought in the States?

KATHERINE BARBER: Well, actually, when we did a survey for the Canadian Oxford Dictionary, we found that in the Canadian Forces leftenant is the official pronunciation, but outside of there it really is divided about equally.

MARY LOU FINLAY: So the American usage has crept in to Canada? Because it must have once been all leftenant.

KATHERINE BARBER: No because Canadian English was first formed by Americans moving north after the revolution, the loyalists. So we don't have any doubt about how they pronounced things. What happened was in the 19th century was they were a huge influx of British speakers. And I would guess that at that point, the leftenant pronunciation started to be imposed on Canadians. So my theory would be that we said lieutenant in Canada before we said leftenant.

MARY LOU FINLAY: Well, what will we do now about our school children?

KATHERINE BARBER: Well, children learn pronunciations from their peers so they don't necessarily learn them from textbooks. So they will say what the other children say. I think probably in Canadian English we'll carry on with these two variants coexisting because that's true for many many words in Canadian English. There's more than one way to pronounce it. And we just allow those variants to coexist much as we allow spelling conventions to coexist in Canada. That's just one of the facts about Canadian English.]

CH: That was Canada's self-described word lady and the editor in chief of the Canadian Oxford Dictionary, Katherine Barber, speaking with Mary Lou Finlay in 1998. Ms. Barber has died. She was 61 years old.

Back To Top »

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

April 27, 2021 Episode Transcript

More Stories Like This