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The Current Transcript for April 13, 2021

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

JASON KENNEY: The re-opening strategy is on hold indefinitely until we stabilize the spike in cases.

MATT GALLOWAY: As Alberta's premier brings in further measures to target ballooning case counts, he is facing resistance on the streets and from members of his own party. Inside Alberta's covid conflict, coming up in just a moment.

MG: Also this morning, Rebecca Carroll grew up as the only black person in her small New Hampshire town. She didn't meet anyone else who looked like her until she was six. In an hour, she's here to talk about her own racial awakening, her search for identity and the hard work she says is needed to truly understand each other.

MG: And later:

LAURA PAYTON: Pregnancy is considered a happy thing. And there's this idea that you don't want to taint it with the idea there could be a loss.

MG: In the face of the stigma still surrounding miscarriages. Parents who have suffered a pregnancy loss are calling on the government and employers for greater support. Three of those parents are here in 30 minutes. We begin, though, in Alberta, where covid cases and frustrations are both sky high.

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Alberta polarized over new COVID-19 restrictions

Guests: Drew Barnes, Lisa Young

MG: Alberta is back in lockdown and plenty of Albertans are not pleased. Premier Jason Kenney announced fresh restrictions for the province last week, and now he's feeling the fury of a portion of the public, a crowd that gathered in front of the legislature yesterday to condemn the move. Here is what they had to say about Alberta's chief medical officer of health, Dr. Deena Hinshaw.

[Sound Clip: protesters chanting, "lock her up"]

MG: The protesters are certainly the loudest, but they're not the only ones pushing back. Danika Chevalier is the owner of a gym in Cold Lake that decided to stay open in spite of the new restrictions. She's also a trained nurse.

DANIKA CHEVALIER: I'm staying open. I can't afford to close again. I'm very cautious. I feel that my business is providing a service that is providing good in a safe manner. My statistics, my data prove that we have had zero cases of transmission. My facts are I've had a ton of community outreach from members who have said that my space has been their saving grace in the last year for their mental health, their physical health, their wellbeing. So I'm just trying to do the morally ethical thing that I feel is in alignment with my values. I mean, where we live, we're pretty remote. And I'm not saying covid isn't real up here, but again, the data doesn't support these mass lockdowns.

MG: That position is even seeing support from some in Jason Kenny's own party. A group of United Conservative Party MLAs released a public letter last week opposing the return to lockdown. Drew Barnes', MLA for Cypress-Medicine Hat, was one of those MLAs.

MG: Drew Barnes. Good morning.

DREW BARNES: Good morning to you.

MG: Do you believe it's ok for business owners like Mr. Chevalier to defy the restrictions and open her gym?

DB: I do not. I would ask everyone to follow the rules and the restrictions, but at the same time keep advocating for a pivot, for a change in policy. Keep advocating for recognition is exactly what she said. We're in the middle of a mental health, a physical, a spiritual and a huge economic crisis. And a regional approach could do so much to overcome lots of that. So follow the laws. Follow the rules, but keep advocating. Keep speaking up.

MG: What about those protesters who are chanting "lock her up", about Dr. Deena Hinshaw and others saying just say no to vaccines, having publicly opposed Dr. Deena Hinshaw's recommendations. What responsibility do you take for those comments?

DB: I take none I mean, you know, thank God we live in a free country, in a free province. Of course it's wrong. Dr. Hinshaw is working hard, making decisions. Premier Kenney and our emergency management committee is working hard and making decisions. You know, we're 14 months into this though. Lockdown's, restrictions, such a huge, huge impact on the mental, the physical and the spiritual and the economic part of our life. You know, lockdown's weren't meant for 14 months. And obviously, the frustration, the anxiety and the stress is building. You know, in Cypress-Medicine Hat, of course, which I know best. You know, the amount of self-harm, the amount of overdoses and even compliances is good, good people. You know, it's 14 months and that's a long time without being able to connect with your friends, your family. You know. Yeah. It's a very tough situation.

MG: And yet Alberta currently has the highest per capita cases of covid in the entire country. What scientific basis do you have for easing restrictions?

DB: Well, basically, we're... You know, in my last article, I called it a common sense approach. I compared it to Mike Harris's approach. And it's one of the reasons that me and many of my colleagues are calling for a regional approach.

MG: But, just to the question, though. I mean, what is the scientific basis for that, given the fact that, as I say, Alberta has the highest per capita cases of covid in the entire country?

DB: Well, I guess, you know, of course, I'm not a scientist, but I'll say this. We went months with an area 400 miles by 400 miles with 10 cases, nobody in the hospital... still today our hospital is not overwhelmed. Still today, we've got empty floors, ICU, that isn't stressed. You know, that's one of the things that a lot of people say to me. We're 14 months into this. We spend 25 billion a year on health care in Alberta. And we didn't build the surge capacity to get ready for the nonessential and the emergency surgeries and those kind of things that we could have. So people are absolutely right to call their government into question, and to say, why didn't we do this? Why didn't we do better? Why didn't we look at this and the big thing here is a regional approach? I mean, Alberta is bigger than like one third of European countries. And we have the same approach. We had, you know, some areas hundreds of miles by hundreds of miles, but with lots of cases and without big impact on our health care system.

MG: But again, the reason presumably that those restrictions were put into place by the medical officer of health, the chief public health officer, is because she has done modelling and her team has done modelling and made a scientific determination. I just ...is there any scientific basis for this beyond what you're talking about in terms of, you know, the economic crisis and the spiritual crisis and the emotional crisis? Is there a scientific reason behind opening up cases at a point when variants are spreading?

DB: Well, just yesterday, two doctors stood up and went public and spoke up against restrictions and lockdowns and all these regulations saying that non pharmaceutical interventions don't work. So, again, you know, I'm so grateful that we have the chance and I'm grateful that I'm one of the 87 MLA's, one of 87 Albertans that are paid to speak up on the behalf of 4.4 Million Albertans and put these other ideas out there.

MG: How worried are you about what's happening in your own community right now? Medicine Hat has over 90 active cases. That's up from about 30 just a few weeks ago. The variants are spreading and they're spreading like wildfire. So shouldn't every community, including yours, be vigilant right now?

DB: Well, I'm very worried about all Albertans. I'm very worried about the 50,000 people that I'm grateful to represent. But again, hospital's not overwhelmed. A lot of people, you know, with the virus or what? I don't know. So, yeah, but again, we have a situation where our hospitals are overwhelmed. We had vaccinations we’re up to 12 percent of vaccinations now. I think all of our long term care residents, many of our health care workers that want to get vaccinated are vaccinated. So we're at a turning point where that is going to allow more protection and more safety. And I'm grateful for that. I'm grateful that that is starting to have some input. You know, even though our federal government dropped the ball there, you know, considerably.

MG: There are doctors who are very worried in your province. Take a listen to Dr. Shazma Mithani. She's an emergency room physician in Edmonton.

SHAZMA MITHANI: That letter that was signed by multiple MLA's speaking against these public health restrictions. It's quite troubling. It sets the stage for their constituents and for other Albertans to disobey them, essentially. There is this backlash against the guidelines, which I actually don't think are strong enough to be totally honest. And then also. Just you know, a lot of people I've been hearing that are anti maskers and anti restrictions, they don't think it's going to affect them and they don't care if they get covid. You can make your own decisions for yourself. The problem with that is if they spread it to other people, they could be potentially killing that other person. In terms of how that's going to affect my work, I mean, I look to my colleagues in Ontario and it's terrifying to see their ICU's are full, and they need to start making decisions about who deserves an ICU better, who deserves a ventilator. And we certainly don't want to be put in a position here in Alberta where we're going to have to start making those decisions.

MG: Drew Barnes', do understand the concern that she has? She's on the front lines of this crisis.

DB: Yeah, yeah. Again, I mean, different opinions out there from the medical profession. Many, many doctors are saying non pharmaceutical interventions don't work. And it's back to the surge capacity, 25 billion a year spent on health care, in Alberta, we have empty floors in Medicine Hat hospital. We've had 14 months of this. Could we have been more prepared for that kind of thing for that to happen... you know, and again, the overwhelming has not happened and the beauty of a regional approach, if it does start to happen, you can make some changes. Again, we're back to the mental health crisis, back to the, you know, the spiritual and the physical crisis, that there's another crisis that we're dealing with, just as challenging as the covid crisis. And that is what the discussion is about, the discussion is about on behalf of my constituents, on behalf of Albertans saying, you know, my goodness, 14 months into this, you know, this is what's happened in our community. That had more to do with the covid lockdown and restrictions, then to do with the virus. We have to put this on the table. We have to talk about it. And, you know, another thing that people are very, very concerned about is gyms. You know, gyms have not been a spreader of the virus. And a lot of people, younger people, maybe in particular, we're finding as their outlet.

MG: We've seen a gym in Quebec that's been the centre of an outbreak. I mean, how can you say the gyms aren't the spreader of the virus, where we've seen in particular that example of it?

DB: Yeah. Yeah, I think the main example of the spreader of the virus in Alberta has been in house contact people....

MG: Right, but again, just if you're saying that gyms aren't a spread of that, one of the reasons why, again, this has gone on for 14 months. Many doctors have said it and Shazma Mithani was hinting at that, is that the restrictions haven't been tough enough, that nobody wants this to continue. And I think everybody's frustrated. The question is, if you don't take decisive action now, is there the possibility that this could get even longer? And those complications that you're talking about, the other crises could be exacerbated by a lack of decisive action.

DB: Yeah, and this action is maybe leading to more overdoses, more mental health issues, a lot of people are sounding the alarm about the long term effects on our children and on our economy. You know, some of them are saying we're going to be dealing with this for two generations because of the restrictions and the regulations. We don't know what all these restrictions and regulations, the effects that it's all going to bring on us. So let's talk about that as well. And a lot of people are really, really concerned about the inconsistencies. You know, you can go to the big box store, but you can't go to the mom and pop store that carefully cleaned and carefully takes care of everything, the spiritual... Go ahead.

MG: Well, I was going to say, just before I let you go, because we are close to time, but your province is really divided by this right now. There is a lot of polarisation around this issue. What are you going to do? As an elected official, what are you going to do to try and alleviate some of that polarisation in the midst of a crisis that's still unfolding?

DB: OK, yeah, well, no one is going to keep, you know, talking to Premier Kenney, the cabinet committee, I'm going to keep presenting to them what I'm hearing from experts who say non pharmaceutical interventions, the restrictions and regulations aren't working and they're causing more, more harm than good. I'm going to keep reaching back to my constituents and support them in any way I can. The Alberta government has put considerable money into Cypress-Medicine Hat for mental health and those kind of things, and I'm grateful for that. You know, their spiritual churches is a perfect example. You know, the inconsistencies. And I keep asking the government to view those as an example, funeral on Friday, you have 20 people. A wedding on Saturday, you can only have 10, I mean if the fire floor capacity of the church is bigger, you can on 150 Sunday for the service. These inconsistencies are driving people crazy. And it's time that the government look at those things. And I've asked for that and I'll continue to ask for that.

MG: Drew Barnes, it's good to speak with you this morning. Thank you very much.

DB: Thank you. Have a good day.

MG: And you.

MG: Drew Barnes is the UCP MLA for Cypress-Medicine Hat in southern Alberta. Lisa Young has been following this closely. She's a professor of political science at the University of Calgary.

MG: Lisa, good morning to you.

LISA YOUNG: Morning, Matt.

MG: What do you make of what you've just heard from Drew Barnes? What's this really about?

LY: Well, you know, I do think that Mr. Barnes speaks for a non-trivial portion of the Alberta population, what we saw in opinion polls that came out just late last week is that, you know, 45 percent of the Alberta population thinks that the current regulations have gone too far and almost the same proportion of people think that they haven't gone far enough. So we've got a real as you've said in your interview with him, a real polarisation of opinion. And I think, you know, certainly Mr. Barnes and the CP MLA's, who signed a letter last week, are representative of that 45 percent.

MG: And yet the restrictions in Alberta are far less restrictive than in many other places in this country, including Ontario and Quebec. You can still go to the mall. You can still get a haircut, for example. The patios are still open. So if you go a bit deeper, what are people most unhappy about?

LY: I think the very idea of restrictions and, you know, I think we're in a situation now where people are getting information sometimes from not entirely reliable sources, that they are seeking out information that confirms their preconceived notions. I think we heard a little bit of that from Mr. Barnes. You know, the majority of doctors, particularly those who are working in ICU's, have been very clear that the restrictions in place in Alberta right now are inadequate. But Mr. Barnes has gone looking for a couple of doctors who will say the reverse. So, you know, one of the dangerous things about polarisation is that we see people seeking out information that just reinforces their biases. And that's part of what's going on here, I think.

MG: What about the role of the premier in this? Jason Kenney has said that the new restrictions are necessary. But take a listen to what he said in the legislature last May.

JASON KENNEY: I believe fundamentally here in Alberta, what we have achieved to date is something to be proud of as Albertans. The limited spread here with lighter restrictions is evidence fundamentally of one important thing, that Albertans did this voluntarily through their personal responsibility. They did not need in every aspect of their social and economic lives to be micromanaged by government. They did this by listening to the advice of our chief medical officer, by employing good old fashioned Alberta common sense.

MG: Common sense, that's interesting because Drew Barnes used that phrase as well. In talking about his approach, how has that sort of message from the premier affected and shaped the views of Albertans on the covid protocols?

LY: Well, I think that what we've heard from the premier periodically over the past year has really laid the groundwork in many ways for what we've heard from the MLAs who signed the letter last week. The premier is now speaking out in favour of the current restrictions, but he's gone back and forth. We've heard from him that this is, you know, an influenza like disease that we shouldn't be concerned about. We've heard that, you know, we should be thinking about charter protected freedoms. We've certainly heard him at news conferences with the chief medical officer of health making the same claims about the negative mental health impacts of the lockdown that we heard from Mr. Barnes just now. So we've got that version of the premier who diminishes the impact of covid on the one hand and talks about charter freedoms. And then we've got the premier who comes out and speaks in favour of the restrictions that we do have. So that inconsistency, the sort of lurching back and forth, I think has been one of the things that's helped the view that Mr. Barnes has expressed grow in popularity. It's giving it credence. And so it's contributed really to the polarisation that we're seeing right now.

MG: As you say, it's not an insignificant size of the population. And some of the pushback is coming from his own party, from his own MLAs. What kind of bind does that leave the premier in?

LY: Well, I think the premier is in a desperately difficult position. He's now had one of the most overt caucus revolts that we've seen. Now, it's not you know, it's not a caucus revolt in the sense that they're calling for him to step down. But certainly to have 17 MLAs, you know, publicly distanced themselves from the government's approach on the issue of the day, is an enormous political problem. And Mr. Kenney's problem has been that he created the United Conservative Party as his own personal vehicle, in many ways bringing together too right of centre parties, the old progressive Conservative Party and the further right Wildrose party. And part of what we're seeing here with the Rural Caucus revolt is the potential fracturing of this party that, you know, if these 17 MLAs were to walk away, it would really reinvigorate the old Wildrose party and undo the uniting that he had done of these two parties.

MG: Just in the last minute or so that we have. You've said that Alberta in the midst of covid may be ungovernable in some ways with the highest per capita number of cases in the country. What concerns you the most about that?

LY: Well, I think, you know, what we're seeing here is less compliance with the already inadequate restrictions that we have in place. So we've got protests that are going on, they've been going on for months now, but they're heightened. We've got restaurants and gyms saying that they're simply going to ignore this. And in some ways, you know, this is emboldened by the premier himself saying that, you know, look, people aren't even obeying the restrictions that we've got in place. So we've got that dilemma. And in a situation where the premier may very well need to impose even stricter restrictions several weeks from now when the hospitals are overrun and the ICU's are crowded, will he have the political space that he needs to do what has to be done?

MG: Lisa, it's great to speak with you about this. I really appreciate your time this morning. Thank you.

LY: My pleasure.

MG: Lisa Young, professor of political science at the University of Calgary. Your CBC News is next. And then:

ANDREW WATERMAN: After a while, I just said like, hey, I don't know if you guys have seen the article, but my wife and I just went through a miscarriage. And then they were like, it was kind of like a relief. They were like, oh, you know, I didn't want to bring it up.

MG: It has been one of the most taboo subjects, miscarriage and the shift in the stigma around it. Going to talk with three parents about addressing that stigma and the need for greater support from government, but also from employers. That story coming up in six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One.

[Music: Theme]

Dismantling the silence around pregnancy loss

Guest: Laura Payton, Andrew Waterman, Stephanie Gilbert

MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

MG: Still to come, the American author, Rebecca Carroll on growing up black in an all white town and what it means to live under the white gaze. But first, it is a topic that is often swept under the rug. My next guests want to bring it into the light.

[Music: Theme]

MG: Pregnancy is supposed to be a time of joy, celebration and anticipation, but too often things can go wrong. As many as one in four pregnancies end in miscarriage, and the grief that goes with that is so often tucked away behind closed doors. And government supports for Canadian families going through that pain are inconsistent at best. Laura Payton has written about her own miscarriage.

MG: Laura, good morning.

LAURA PAYTON: Good morning, Matt.

MG: You wrote a very open personal article about your own experience. Why did you do that? Why did you write that piece?

LP: Well, initially, you know, when I had the miscarriage, we had already told our friends and family we were pregnant because I was almost 13 weeks along. And it seemed like the easiest way to tell them what had happened about our loss would be to post on a private Instagram account I have, you know, a few hundred of my closest friends. And the reaction was insane. I had so many private messages from women who I didn't know had gone through it and people telling me their stories. Aside from the fact that I already knew many women or families who had gone through it. And so it really drove me to feel like we needed to have a bigger conversation. I also found, you know, it can take several days to go through the process. And so when I was bleeding and then bleeding and cramping, I didn't know exactly what was going to be happening to my body. So I was Googling like crazy, trying to find good, reliable sources. And there was nothing that describes what I was about to go through. And to me, that just added to the anxiety and the fear. And I really felt like women, families need that resource. Pregnant people need that resource so that they don't have to go into it blind.

MG: Can you talk just briefly about how you wrote this piece in the way that you wrote it? Because as I said it's a very honest and open piece and you don't shy away from talking in detail about what happened.

LP: Yeah, it felt very raw. And I did ask and Flare magazine was happy to do it, to put a content warning because it is graphic. But a miscarriage is graphic, right? It's not sanitary. And we talk about it... we don't talk about the gritty details. And that was something that I wanted to bring into the open, because it's one thing to say I had a miscarriage. It's another thing to understand that it can be painful for some women and it can be pretty horrifying. I mean, in some cases you might see recognisable tissue that looks like a foetus or a baby. And so I just wanted people to, if they were seeking that information, have it.

MG: Do you see that stigma changing over time? And you talked before about how you got responses back from from people that you didn't know had gone through a miscarriage, in part because there is a stigma or has been a stigma around this, is that changing?

LP: I think it is. And I think we've seen it through some of the celebrity posts about it. You know, Chrissy Teigen, who is not known for being withdrawn and quiet, but she posted very publicly and I thought bravely, about her painful loss. Megan Markle as well. And they're not the first ones. I think it's just really showing that more and more people are comfortable doing this. I've even seen more pieces in Canadian media from people who have experienced losses. And I think that's so vital because it does open the conversation and it makes people aware.

MG: Why, for people who might not understand this, why would that stigma exist? Why would it persevere that people would be unwilling to talk about something like this?

LP: Well, I think partly it's that pregnancy is considered a happy thing. And there's this idea that you don't want to taint it with the idea there could be a loss. I think once you have a loved one who has a loss, it's hard to talk about because you don't really want to press them for details. Right. You just want to support them and be there. And so there's less discussion because of that. And I also think, you know, we've found... there are studies that have found that women's pain can really be dismissed, and especially if you are a person of colour or a woman of colour in particular, sometimes health care workers can dismiss the pain, whether it's physical or emotional. And I think that all of these things combine to make it harder to discuss. You know, it's not that long ago that fathers weren't allowed into the delivery room. So I think it's just, it's holdovers from an earlier era. And I think it's a great thing that women are starting to be able to share this grief.

MG: Andrew Waterman is a reporter for the SaltWire Network in St. John's. He wrote about the impact of his wife's miscarriage, and he is going to be part of this conversation as well.

MG: Andrew, good morning to you.

ANDREW WATERMAN: Good morning.

MG: We don't often hear from fathers and partners about miscarriage. So why did you want to write your piece?

AW: Well, I had it written already. I write to understand things sometimes. And this was a particularly heavy and hard thing to understand when, you know, just moments ago... in my head, I was having a baby soon, and my wife... me and my wife were having a baby soon and, you know, just all that joy kind of went away, you know, fairly quickly. When we discovered the heartbeat had stopped. And so I had this written and that's when I thought, you know, maybe I should publish this. I didn't intend to... when I started, to publish it, but I thought it was good enough and got some things across, some difficult things across to... and I thought maybe some people could relate. And I have to say, obviously, I discussed it with my wife as well and made sure that what I had said was true of our experience, because obviously I didn't go through the same thing that my wife did. I experienced a lot of emotional distress, but it was obviously a lot different to be in the supportive role rather than actually being... going through the physical aspect of it as well.

MG: What about with friends? I mean, I know that you got together with some friends that you played music with after the article came out. What happened then?

AW: It was interesting because these are very good friends of mine that we you know, anything that comes up, we talk about, you know, and we're supportive of each other. And I had assumed that when I showed up there that it would be brought up since I had publicly discussed this. And after a while, I just said, like, hey, I don't know if you guys have seen the article, but my wife and I just went through a miscarriage. And then they were like it was kind of like a relief. They were like, oh, you know, I didn't want to bring it up. I guess they wanted me to approach it to see if I actually wanted to talk about it or not. But it was funny because, of course, I wanted to talk about it. I just published an article about it. But I think that was one indication of like, oh, yeah, maybe this isn't something that people openly discuss. And another indication of that was that all of a sudden there was a flood of people telling us about their experience. Everybody knows someone, but no one seems to talk about it. So, yeah.

MG: Laura, I mean, you've hinted at this, but that idea, everybody knows somebody, but no one really wants to talk about it. How important is it to hear from fathers and partners if we're talking about miscarriage?

LP: Well, I think it depends on the person, but in general, I find talking about grief and loss is helpful. And so if people have that opportunity, it makes it easier to share the burden. And I think it's like sharing these kinds of things. I can tell you how important it is. Just last week, I was walking a friend through it, somebody who I didn't know super well, but she approached me in the process of losing her pregnancy because she said, I know you've written about this and I want to talk about it. And that's not the first time that's happened. So there's a need for this kind of conversation. There's a desperate need for it for both parents in a partnership, in a family. And so we need to keep doing this. And I think it's so important that everyone keep talking about it and writing about it.

MG: Let me bring one more person into this conversation. Stephanie Gilbert is an associate professor of organisational management at the Shannon School of Business at Cape Breton University. And she's been studying what employers and governments can do to support families who have experienced pregnancy loss.

MG: Stephanie, good morning to you.

STEPHANIE GILBERT: Good morning, Matt.

MG: What do you think when you hear the experiences of Laura and Andrew?

SG: Oh, well, they're absolutely heartbreaking stories. And so some colleagues of mine and I are trying to understand more about the experience of having a pregnancy loss and going back to work and then how workplaces can play a role in supporting those folks.

MG: What sort of supports are there now for Canadian women after a pregnancy loss?

SG: Well, like Laura was saying, the supports that are available are largely informal, so they vary wildly from one person to the next and largely would depend on who your boss is or whether you have an especially supportive H.R. person who's involved, for example. So, we know people who have really compassionate managers might feel really supported. Others might not even feel safe telling their manager that they're having a loss at all and so don't receive any support. We're also finding that leave options are not well communicated. So most times folks going through pregnancy loss are taking their sick leave and their vacation leave in order to recover at home.

MG: Laura talked about the basic lack of information as well, and that that led to a flood of people contacting her because she was speaking about something that people were grasping for information for. How is it that people have fallen through the cracks in some ways when it comes to the absence of information?

SG: Yeah, so that absence of information extends to the workplace as well, where we're not seeing that people are... they aren't told about all of their bereavement leave options. Most often bereavement leave itself is not really considered. It's very much a grey area whether pregnancy loss should be eligible for bereavement leave specifically. And so there's kind of this lack of information around, what are your options? And another interesting finding from our study where I've recently spoken to 36 folks who have gone through a pregnancy loss and then gone back to work, is that many of them aren't aware of the federal or provincial programmes that they may qualify for to access leave time. So, again, they're kind of taking sick and vacation time, but not benefiting from these other programmes that they could access.

MG: This is important research and it's personal for you as well. Tell me a bit about why you wanted to do this research.

SG: Yeah, it's personal for me, so I've had a pregnancy loss myself at 37 weeks, so that would be a stillbirth. And so this research kind of stems from that lived experience that I've gone through and also experiencing the stigma of that type of loss. I, though, felt incredibly supported in my experience and did benefit from maternity leave benefits through EI. So if you have a loss after 20 weeks in Canada and you qualify for employment insurance, you can have 15 weeks of paid leave through employment insurance. That was an incredible amount of time for me. I felt like I needed all that time. But now, as I'm talking to all these participants in my study who are getting a couple of days off after their leave or if they're lucky, they get a couple of weeks off and I'm thinking, oh, my goodness, how did you go back to work after that time and jump back into those demands of the workplace when you're still emotionally and also physically recovering from a pregnancy and a birth.

MG: Within your workplace? I mean, you talk about EI, but within your workplace, did you have a supportive employer who you could speak to openly about this and understood what was going on?

SG: I did. I felt very supported. And just like Laura and Andrew were saying, there is kind of that secret network of other bereaved parents that tend to reach out to you, whether that's at work or outside of work. And I experience that, too. But what was incredibly helpful for me was that I had a really supportive H.R. person who right away sent me a concise email, conveying condolences, letting me know I qualified for maternity leave benefits. Here's the number to call. Here's the extension. And don't forget, we also have the Employee and Family Assistance Program where you can access counselling. And that email saved me a lot of grief and not having to go digging for that kind of information, which somebody who's just had a loss is not in a place to go around looking for that information online.

MG: Well, and given that, I mean, what does it tell you? That there are people who have to go and do that digging, that there aren't more clear and consistent supports for people across the country when it comes to pregnancy loss?

SG: Yes, and that's absolutely a really important finding, is that rather than to do that digging, what most people do is just say, well, you know, I've got a few days of sick leave, I've got a few days of vacation, I'll just do that and then I'll go back to work. And so these people aren't benefiting from programmes that do exist. And so, you know, an increase in awareness or maybe there are implications for H.R. practises in how to standardise the types of information people are receiving right after their loss.

MG: Laura, what do you make of that? Of people having to use vacation or sick days to grieve a child, how much of this is about actually recognising what's happening here?

LP: I was not aware of these programmes, and I consider myself reasonably well informed. I think that there is a reluctance, like Andrew said, to talk about... to approach somebody who's had this loss when in fact, it can be as easy as what Stephanie experienced like, a simple email expressing condolences and pointing people in the right direction. And that would just help families immensely.

MG: Andrew, what would it mean to partners to be able to have access to that time off and know that it's not, you know, sick leave or using some vacation pay and vacation time?

AW: I'll be honest, I was actually unaware of that. But I do know that this it's not something that is easy. And there's a lot of things that happen that you wouldn't expect, if you don't go through it. You know, I don't know if that helps at all.

MG: Absolutely. I mean, Stephanie, you can't imagine in some ways having to go back to work. You said somebody... You were speaking with, somebody who had to go back after just a few days?

SG: Well, yes. And I've spoken to people who just worked right on through their loss. Like, we know that these pregnancy losses are in some cases happening right in the workplace and no time off is taken at all. And that's especially the case for anybody who's like self-employed, who doesn't qualify for these unemployment insurance programmes, you know, or is in a temporary position or a gig worker. They're often not able to take time off. So the workplace we're finding plays a really important role in the entire experience and the return to work. If there is a return to work after some time off, that is kind of an important rite of passage for moving forward and, you know, facilitating recovery. So that process should be managed with a lot of support.

MG: Are there jurisdictions that are getting this right? I mean, a Conservative MP, Blake Richards, put forth a motion to provide more support for families, either after a miscarriage or the loss of a child. And it had unanimous support and a committee had put forth recommendations as well, but elsewhere in the world, are there jurisdictions that are getting this right?

SG: I think there's a lot of room for growth elsewhere and here in Canada, I'm not sure like what all the programmes are worldwide. I know that they vary quite widely. New Zealand, just introduced the first three days of paid leave for pregnancy loss at any stage of pregnancy. And, well, that's not a lot of time. It's time that's offered across the board. So if you don't have the financial means to take unpaid leave and you don't qualify for employment insurance benefits, then you can access at least this three days. And that's something that we don't have here in Canada.

MG: We asked the government for comment and Carla Qualtrough, the minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion, her office sent a statement that reads, in part, "Expecting parents who are unable to work because of emotional and psychological distress caused by a miscarriage or stillbirth may be eligible for EI maternity or sickness benefits and job protected leave." It goes on that the pandemic has shown that Canada needs more modern and inclusive... a more modern and inclusive EI system so that it better reflects the changing ways in which Canadians work, including providing coverage and support for the self-employed. So, Stephanie, what would you want the government to do? I mean, if there was a road map that you could offer, what could it look like?

SG: Oh, that's a great question, I wish I had the perfect answer for that. I have a few ideas that are emerging from our research so far. One is for the government to potentially work with H.R. practitioners on how to offer information about the government programmes that are available, increase that awareness and utilisation of those programmes. But the motion 110 that you were mentioning earlier puts forward seven recommendations that I fully believe in as well and are informed by people's lived experiences. So things like easier reporting of the death of your child so that you're not receiving a bunch of mail, you know, requesting that you apply for a birth certificate or, you know, that you need to repay benefits that you've received for your child. That kind of thing can be quite distressing for parents who have just gone through a loss. So easier ways to report that your child has passed away to receive a more supportive response from Service Canada. In some cases, like through a dedicated bereavement line, you can call. Those kinds of recommendations in that report, I think are excellent.

MG: Do you see a shift broadly happening in terms of how people are talking about this issue, but also in the wake of those conversations, action is being taken?

SG: I see a social call for more work in this area. Research wise, as far as I know, our research that we're doing right now in pregnancy loss in the workplace is like the first... I know of one other study that looked at pregnancy loss with respect to work, that was from early 2000s. So there's not a lot of research in this area that can inform practise and policy change. So we're hoping, my researcher colleagues and I, are hoping we can fill that gap.

MG: What about for you, Andrew? You and Laura are part of I think it's a, you know, relatively small group of people who've opened up about pregnancy loss and their families loss. Do you see a shift happening and how people talk about this?

AW: I'm not so sure. I mean, I did get a lot of people write me and write my wife as well, you know, and very supportive and again, opening up about their own experiences. But again, I don't know that I've really heard anything since. I mean, I have to say, I was... Laura, your article was amazing. I'm glad that I was asked to be on this, even just to see that article. Our experiences or my wife and your experiences was very, very similar. And I was hesitant to... some of the details you put in there were just, I was so happy that you did that because I think that helped a lot. So I appreciate that. But again, going back to the original question, I'm not so sure. I mean, if I'm being honest, I guess I don't see it. I don't see anyone talking about it. I don't... from my personal experience, I haven't really... other than when I put out the article, it hasn't really... I haven't seen much more.

MG: Laura, what for you? I mean, given what Andrew's saying about how helpful your piece was for him, what would have helped you in that moment?

LP: I really think that having more clear information about what I could expect, even though it might not affect every woman losing a pregnancy, every person losing a pregnancy. But if I could have had something that said, you know, you may experience labour pains, you may pass recognisable tissue, if you go to the hospital, here's what you can expect. Those details are not available and that makes the whole process harder. One thing that I... just to get back to your question earlier about the leave benefits, one thing I think that they do is recognise the physical process for the person who's lost the pregnancy because you may have ultrasounds and follow up appointments. And that healing alone is hard. Never mind when you add in the grief. And so if more people are talking about this and if my article encourages people to share their experiences and to approach each other when they need help, then, you know, that's a way I can bring a little bit of meaning out of something that was incredibly difficult for our family.

MG: These are incredibly difficult conversations to have, an incredibly personal experience as well. Not easy to talk about, but really important. So I really do appreciate all of you being willing to speak about this this morning. Thank you very much.

LP: Thank you, Matt.

SG: Thank you so much.

AW: I appreciate it a lot. Thanks.

MG: Take care of yourselves. Bye bye.

MG: Laura Payton is a writer and government employee in Ottawa. Andrew Waterman, a reporter for The SaltWire Network in St. John's. And Stephanie Gilbert, an assistant professor of organisational management at the Shannon School of Business in Cape Breton University. As we mentioned, the stories of pregnancy loss are very familiar to so many people. We would love to hear from you if you have experienced this on the supports that you received, but also on the supports that we as a society need to provide. You can email us thecurrent@CBC.ca or tweet us @TheCurrentCBC. Coming up after your regional update:

REBBECA CARROLL: When I say that white people go to their own defensiveness, I mean, I'm speaking from my experience with my family who are loving liberal people.

MG: Living under the white gaze. The American author Rebecca Carroll will explain what exactly that means and how it shaped her childhood. She has a new memoir out exploring just that. And you'll hear all about it, coming up in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current on CBC Radio One. Stay with us.

[Music: Theme]

Rebecca Carroll on the white gaze, and claiming her own identity

Guest: Rebecca Carroll

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway, you're listening to The Current.

MG: Rebecca Carroll was the only black person in her small New Hampshire town when she was growing up, she was raised there by white adoptive parents. And in her new memoir, she writes about her racial awakening and coming to understand her identity. Her book is called Surviving the White Gaze.

MG: Rebecca Carroll, good morning.

REBECCA CARROLL: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Thanks for being here.

RC: Delighted.

MG: What is the white gaze?

RC: The white gaze, and I am never able to say it as eloquently as Toni Morrison, but it is that thing. It is the default that sets the tenor, the tone, the structure, the standard, the value for what is good. Whether it is the canon of literature, whether it is the standard of beauty, it is the default mode set in place by a sort of white, sort of, white supremacist... nothing is sort of white supremacist, but a white supremacist de facto.

MG: And Toni Morrison wrote extensively about this. And just a side note, you managed to meet Toni Morrison.

RC: I did. I did, indeed. I was a producer for a couple of years on the show called Charlie Rose, which has since gone down in flames here in New York. She was a guest and I write about this in the book. Charlie did not let me produce the segment because he didn't feel that I was skilled enough. But I did get to stand in the control room. And as this segment was unfolding and she started talking about the white gaze, you know, it was one of those your head explodes moments. That's what it is. That's what I've been trying to escape. What I've been trying to get out from under what has been telling me that I'm not ok or beautiful or acceptable or smart or all of these things. And so I did, of course, bring all of my books, which she signed with such grace and graciousness. But yes, that was a moment. That was a moment in many ways, because it was the first time I'd heard the term white gaze. It was also the moment that I got to sort of meet this living ancestor, right. This woman who embodied so much grace and stature and power and love of herself and blackness and black folks.

MG: So tell me about that. What was it like growing up as the only black person in that small New Hampshire town?

RC: Confusing, real confusing in that, as I write in the book, there are a bunch of different factors, sort of a confluence of things that come together so that the cognitive dissonance was so glaring. Right. So as a little girl, I was very precocious and cute and outgoing and I loved fashion. And I had this big afro untamed. And I was very engaged and playful and, you know, and so my white adoptive parents who are artists sort of, you know, had this kind of curatorial perception of our family, they just they wanted to create a life that was sort of antithetical to what they had grown up, you know, a very strict Catholic upbringings. They met at the museum school. They met very young. They started a family right away. They were idealistic. And what they wanted to do and this is why I opened the book with this, you know, the first six years of my life, which was [inaudible], which was extraordinarily beautiful, you know, flowers, gardens, nature, tea, cookies. My mom was hyper, hyper focussed on us. We lived in an imaginary world. It was a bubble that was absolutely the white gaze. Right. It was a bubble of beauty, completely void of blackness and race. But for me. And so when we left that bubble, my brother and sister could sort of go about their business and have their own issues, but not the issue that I would face. And then I did not have any... you know, it was like a slap in the face. Racism is a slap in the face any time. But when you are a child who has come from this sort of idyllic setting where you feel free and you feel loved and you feel lifted, and then to sort of go into the real world and be devalued and denigrated is a lot for a 10 year old. And so that flip happened really, really fast, right? It was from oh, Becky then is what I was called, but don't try it now. [laughter] Is so sweet and cute and beautiful. And then in fifth grade, I'm 10 years old and my teacher tells me that I'm pretty, for a black girl and that most black girls are not pretty, but unattractive, ugly, and so I internalised that because there was no context in which to discuss or parse or, you know, I didn't even know how to talk about that.

MG: You and I are around the same age and we both grew up in the 70s. And so there are certain things that you remember from that time. I want to play a little bit of this. Take a listen:.

[Sound Clip: Easy Reader theme song]

MG: That is from the amazing television program, The Electric Company, Morgan Freeman as Easy Reader, why was Easy Reader so important to you?

RC: That is so great to hear. He wasn't the best singer, was he?

MG: [laughter] He tried.

RC: But he tried. And he just... There was so much. Now I have a G in my mind, but so much like glory and gravitas in his voice. So, you know, as with when I met my ballet teacher who was in fact the first black person I met when I was six, there was this visceral pull. There was this strange, almost frightening feeling of connectiveness, connectivity. And I just didn't... I didn't understand what it was. I thought in my mind, well, he's got to be my dad. He's got to be my birth father.

MG: Now, why would you say that? I mean, he's a guy on TV?

RC: Because what I knew from what my parents had told me and again, you know, very, very open with us as kids, you know, that I had a white birth mother and a black birth father, that my white birth mother had been the high school student of my dad and she had gotten pregnant with her older black boyfriend. And so she was the focus of reunion, of adoption. She was the one who they negotiated with. I never heard anything else about my black birth father. And so I, you know, I sort of imagined it must be Easy Reader.

MG: You mentioned your ballet teacher. She was the first black person that you saw in real life.

RC: That I met.

MG: That you met.

RC: No, that I saw... both... same.

MG: What did that mean and what did she mean to you?

RC: Well, for one, and she was just so gorgeous and elegant and graceful and hard. She was a very good teacher, but she was not a softy at all. She didn't favour me, but she loved me. And I knew she did. And she took care to make sure that I knew that. But it was never in like, your special or, you know, I'm going to set you apart from my other students. It was, I want you to know that you are loved. And it is because of that... of your brown skin, of your afro. She didn't even have to communicate that, you know, it was just one of those things where she acted in a way of a black mother.

MG: When did you start to think more about being a little girl who was black and how you fit in as a black girl? I mean, those are two important kind of moments, different as they are. But when did you really start to think about that?

RC: Yeah, I think it was when I met her and when I met my dance teacher. And then I wrote that little essay, all of ten words, I'm a black child, you know, I was telling myself because nobody else really was. But I didn't start to really sort of pull together strategy, as it were, until the prom incident that happened in high school.

MG: Tell me about the prom incident. What happened?

RC: So my friend, a boy who I've been friends with since sixth grade, and I decided that we would go to the prom as friends. And it was very much like, let's just get dressed up. It'll be cool. And the next day after we decided, we had a small core group of friends, you know, Pandamonium, you know, like all of our friends, like, sort of swooped in on me and said, did you hear? And it was like, hear what? And they said, well, you know, what do I call him in the book? Ryan, Nate, Nate's father, said he's forbidding him to take you. He's forbidding Nate to take you to the prom. And I was like, forbid him like whose parent forbids their kid from going to the prom. But of course, of course, he forbidden him. I'm black. And he actually said to his child and again, this was our high school history teacher. If you take her, don't expect to have any pictures, because what you don't want to do is look back on this and see that you took a black girl. I mean, I just, I had absolutely nothing but my own resilience and my own quasi confidence, right. To get through that because it felt absolutely devastating.

MG: But in that moment, I mean why? And you've hinted at this earlier, but why was that one moment so significant in an awakening that you had a racial awakening?

RC: Because it hit all the marks. Right. It hit like, OK, you may think that you are girlfriend material. You definitely are not. You may think that you are pretty or attractive. You definitely are not. You may think that you are someone who is on par or equal with your friends. You are not. You are less than. And it's just that, you know, I was pretty smart. I was pretty funny. Like I had a personality. So it was really a trip to think, oh, so all of what's inside of me doesn't matter to you all.

MG: You write that these are your words, "I'd always been black. It's just that no one really saw me".

RC: Yeah.

MG: What do you mean by that?

RC: I think what I meant was that as I grew more confident in my sense of blackness, I realised that I had always been. Right? In all of these... There are all these touchstone moments where I'm like, Wait. Maybe blackness has been lifting me the whole time because, of course, I am black, and so the idea of not seeing me, it's very much in keeping with, you know, restlessness and colourblindness and post-racial myths and all of this less than. Right. Which is, the message is, I will value you only if I strip you of something that is integral to your identity. So my peers, my high school peers were like, we like you, but we don't think of you as black. And that is why we like you, because as soon as we start thinking of you as black, then we have to deal with all of the stereotypes that are in our head, all of the racism that our parents have displayed, all of you know, it's just it's too much. It's too much of an inconvenience.

MG: You talked about the strategies that you needed to employ. Coming out of that moment what were those strategies that you developed and that you embraced in terms of trying to figure out how to navigate that landscape?

RC: I think it is the strategy that most black women, at least in America, employ. And that is, you know, you get strong. That's where the stereotype comes from, right? That's where the strong black woman, angry black women's role... where those come from is that we are besieged with these, you know, people... they tell us who we are and who we aren't. They expect us to be whatever is meaningful to them at the time. And so we develop, you know, for lack of a better term, a thicker skin, you know, an attitude where upon we can take it, we will endure it and we will keep going because what's the alternative?

MG: In the process of this, of trying to figure this out, you meet your birth mother, Tess. Just briefly tell me how you finally ended up meeting her.

RC: So, like I said, she was a student. She had been a high school student of my parents. And so her brother, who was also a high school student of my dad's, stayed in touch and visited annually. He was a very, very challenging personality. And so I never felt like I could talk to him. I knew who he was, but I never felt like I could talk to him. And then one time he brought his really, really lovely, approachable girlfriend who I just spilled to that I had been thinking about my birth mother, that I didn't think that she wanted to meet me because my parents said that one day we would meet each other and I was already 10 years old and what was happening. I was very, very much like impatient. It's part of my personality. And so this girlfriend said, oh, well, I don't think that's true. I'm sure she'd like to meet you. And so she went back and because she was friends with my birth mother and told her that she had met me. And so then my birth mother wrote a letter to my parents and said, maybe now is the time.

MG: What was your relationship like with her at the very beginning of that?

RC: Heady, really heady.

MG: What do you mean?

RC: It was like being high. It was like being and I mean that in the best way and the worst way, which is that, you know, it's like a bad trip and a great trip, which is that she was beautiful and charismatic and smart and funny. But she decided pretty much right away that I wasn't what she hoped I would be. And so then wasted very little time in kind of starting to reshape me to deconstruct what my parents had done in terms of raising me and filling me with confidence and love. Her sense was that the confidence they had instilled in me was superficial and shallow and false, and that if I were going to be her daughter in this dynamic, then there was a certain set of behaviours and attitudes that I needed to display.

MG: Like what?

RC: Like... you know, that's a hard question to answer, because so much of what she asked is what parents ask their kids. But the way in which she instilled or required it was, often came with this kind of dismissiveness of why didn't you know that? Like something as simple as chores. Right. I didn't have chores in my adoptive family. So she was appalled that I didn't do dishes. And if I was going to be... I was going to visit. Then I needed to do the dishes, but it always came with this kind of judgement, like, what are you thinking? But I was 10. I was 11 years old. Right. So what I was thinking was what my parents had sort of said was ok.

MG: As a young girl who had written out, I am black. How did she make you feel about that?

RC: Like a fraud, it was always... early on, it was always she knew more about what it meant to be black than I did, that she had dated more black men and boys, that she had more black friends, that she was an authority on blackness. And anything that I was doing was fraudulent. Anything that I was doing was a phase. Anything that I was doing was, you know, would be met with, black culture is more than a history class is more than a book you read, is more than your skin colour. You are culturally white and cosmetically black.

MG: And you believe that... You come to the conclusion that she was a racist?

RC: I do.

MG: How difficult is that to wrap your head around?

RC: It's you know, it feels heartbreaking, but it also, it makes sense. And I'm relieved to make sense of it in some ways.

MG: It makes sense? What do you mean it makes sense?

RC: I guess what I mean by making sense is that having evolved and having read and been in community more important than anything else, more important than research or reading, but having been in a community with blackness and realising that that feeling that I had of this is weird was an instinct, which is that black folks usually know when someone's being racist, like it's gut. And so that's what it was.

MG: Do you have any relationship with her now at all?

RC: I don't, no.

MG: Do you regret that she came back into your life? These are personal questions, I'm sorry, but...

RC: No, no, that's all right. I don't regret it. No, I don't regret, I don't regret, period. Really. I don't see the use of that at all. I do think that that relationship and that dynamic, like the prom, like all of these other sort of touch points, it challenged me in a way that made it clear to me who I don't want to be, how I don't want to parent, who I don't want to be to a partner, and how I don't want to engage on the issue of blackness and race.

MG: How do you see a book like this helping the Rebecca's of 2021 who are younger, trying to figure out who they are, young black girls trying to figure out who they are right now?

RC: I think that one of the things that I hope the book will achieve is that for young black girls, for adoptees, is that your story is bigger than that which people presume it or you to be and that you trust your instinct and that you make sure that you have the language to contextualise that instinct. That was one of the things that was really hard for me, is that I had this instinct. I knew when my fifth grade teacher said what she said, when my boss in high school called me the N-word, when all these things happened, I knew that it felt horrible, but I didn't have the language to contextualise it. And so I think that however you do that, whether it's with your squad, if you've got black parents and black friends, you know, people who can help you build language around those moments, that will help you not just evolve internally, but evolve externally and in the context of the world around you.

MG: You're married to a white man, which I mean and you talk about this in the book. I mean, it's not like it's some scandalous thing, you talk about in the book, but I ask you, why did you write about that in the book?

RC: Oh, because I think... I was thinking myself as a cultural critic, right, like if I read this book and I arrived at the end of it, it's like she married a white guy! Come on. After all this? So I wanted to talk about... I wanted to address that. But also just to say that there are... I mean, I never knew that such white people existed, as this one.

MG: Such white people?

RC: Who are fully... who think deeply and fully about race in a way that does not require accolades, who is very, very comfortable with raising a black and mixed child. We often think of ourselves as a black family with a white person in it, and we are still having these conversations that are very, very happening in real time.

MG: You could imagine that there might be a number, especially after the summer that we've had, where there have been this reckoning, as people are calling it, and solidarity being shown across the spectrum that there might be a number of white people who would say that they would be shocked, that you would be surprised that you met somebody who is not the things that perhaps you expected from white people. You wrote in the book, I just want to read this. "The work in humility required to fully understand systemic racism holds no realistic appeal. Most white people go straight to their own sense of guilt and then don't know how to manage their feelings from there. As we've seen over and over again in the woak era of 2020". What did you mean by that?

RC: What I meant is that there is this kind of performative solidarity, this kind of performative allyship, where if you put a black square on your Instagram, suddenly you know all the ins and outs of Bayard Rustin's life. You know, you don't. And so what I say when I say that white people go to their own defensiveness, I mean, I'm speaking directly from my experience with my family who are, again, loving liberal people. But what sets... for me what sets my husband Chris apart is that, you know, he actually has read everything but didn't need, doesn't need to tell people that. And the way that, you know, that he has done that is in the language and the references and the way that he is in conversation with people. So I think and I also write in the book, like maybe it would be a good thing, you know, for the only way for this, for white people to really be conversant is to be fully immersed, you know. I mean, imagine the history. I mean, I don't know what's taught in Canadian history. I know what's taught in American history. And if we flipped that and had kids start in the fifth grade or the third grade or whatever, talking about the lives of slaves and not their slave owners, if we centred the black experience instead of the white experience, then we might be some... We might be onto something. We might be onto some evolution.

MG: Are you confident that people, again, coming out of the summer will put that work in, will find that humility?

RC: No, I would not say I am confident of that. I would say that there is a kind of concern and a kind of panic that came out of the last four years for white liberals specifically. It's like we didn't think that that was going to happen. So now we have this opportunity to sort of move forward in a productive way. But what concerns me is that in order to move forward, we have to undo a lot of what has already been done and unlearn a lot of things that have already been learnt. That is what is at the sort of core of systemic racism, is that we can't just push beyond it. We can't just plough over it. It's everywhere and it's in everything. And so we have to undo a lot of things before we can really do, in a meaningful way.

MG: And so when you talk to your son about this, I mean, optimism is such a weird word. But I mean, what do you hope for the world that your son is going to step into as a teenager?

RC: Yeah. You know, that he can walk freely to the train station, that he can have a voice and feel heard and seen and safe and free and happy and that he can feel proud of his heritage and not have that not be a handicap. And I think, you know, that there is a recognition, particularly for young black folks and young folks of colour that, you know, they are building. They're helping us to build new language. So we're the ones who need to make space for that language.

MG: This is a really powerful book. And it's really great to talk to you about it. Thank you very much.

RC: Thank you, Matt. Thank you. I really enjoyed it.

MG: Rebecca Carroll is the host of the podcast Come Through with Rebecca Carroll. Her new book is called Surviving the White Gaze: A Memoir.

MG: That's it for The Current for this Tuesday. Coming up next on CBC Radio One, it's Tom Power speaking with Alberta country music star Corb Lund. That will be fantastic. You may have gone a little green with envy this week if you heard the news from across the pond at 12:01 in the wee hours of Monday morning, pub restrictions lifted in the UK and Brits flocked to their locals to celebrate the right way with a pint in hand. And so in that spirit, we leave you this morning with Happy Hour, the 1986 hit by a great band, The Housemartins. And we can all hope that at some point in time, sooner rather than later, it will be our turn for happy hour. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

[Sound Clip: Happy Hour by The Housemartins]

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