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The Current Transcript for March 17, 2021

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

What’s at stake for Erin O’Toole ahead of this week’s Conservative convention

Guests: Jenni Byrne, Shachi Kurl, Vassy Kapelos

ERIN O'TOOLE It's been 726 days since Canada had a budget. The Trudeau Liberals have already blown our debt past a trillion dollars. Now, they're headed to one-point-eight-three-trillion, a 57 per cent increase to the debt ceiling. That's what they're asking for. And at the same time, they're not telling us what their planned spending is. It's the height of recklessness. It's going to burden our kids. We need Canada to reopen. We need vaccines. We need jobs in all sectors and all regions. Mr. Trudeau, stop posturing for an election and start doing your job.

MATT GALLOWAY: Conservative leader Erin O'Toole on the attack against what he says is a posturing prime minister. In the video posted to Twitter this week, O'Toole looks like he's ready for a fight, leaning into the camera, bobbing and weaving. But while he's taking swings at Mr. Trudeau, it appears he may be heading for a fight inside his own tent. This week, the Conservative Party policy convention kicks off, and it will be a big test for the still recently elected Erin O'Toole chair. Jenni Byrne is a former adviser to Prime Minister Stephen Harper and principal of Jenni Byrne and Associates. Jenni, good morning.

JENNI BYRNE: Hi, good morning.

MATT GALLOWAY: Going into this party convention, is Erin O'Toole in trouble with his own party?

JENNI BYRNE: Well, I think it would appear that... that way in terms of there was another media story out today in terms of his office dealing and his with... with... with Peter Mackay and other leadership contenders. So it's... it's never good for... for a party going into a convention where there's there's... there's some things aren't going... things are going that well. I think the one thing that I can agree with... with Erin about is I think the Liberals are looking at some way to have an election sometime in the next few months. I think it's advantageous for them. And if I were sitting around the table... if I was sitting around the the Justin Trudeau Liberal table, I would be advising I'd be inviting you to try to find a way to have that election. So on that on that note, I think that.... that I and most Conservatives agree with Erin.

MATT GALLOWAY: You mentioned the newspaper article today. There have been a series of articles in newspapers suggesting that there is discontent within the Conservative Party when it comes to his leadership. And you've said that Ellen O'Toole has a problem with all coalitions of his party. How widespread is that discontent?

JENNI BYRNE: Well, I think.... and the reason I said that was because there was a... there was a thought out there from people that it's the social conservative wing of our caucus. It's.... it's a very vital wing. We have a lot of wings in our party, people that... fiscal conservatives, social conservatives, credit reformers, law and order conservatives. And the issue that I think Erin has right now is as people that kind of put themselves into one of those... one of those one, one or the other, they all have concerns right now.

MATT GALLOWAY: There are questions around.. and concerns in those commentators comes around what Erin O'Toole believes in. He ran as what he called a true-blue Conservative. He talked about taking back the country, whatever that meant. He talked about defeating the carbon tax. He talked about defunding the CBC. What does Erin O'Toole believe in, do you believe?

JENNI BYRNE: Well, and I think that's... I think that's what Conservatives are looking for, what they're going to see in his speech.... his speech this weekend. This is... this speech is going to be very important in terms of the direction of his leadership. But as to your point, there are a lot of people that voted for Erin in the last leadership race that felt that direction and the policy direction that he will take is going to be a lot different than... than what he currently... what he currently has taken. It's the... the policies that you mentioned that he campaigned on are not ones that have been a priority, and in fact, have been started by him since becoming leader. And so I think that even if you're someone who didn't support Erin, or even if you're someone... someone that didn't really support the policies he talked about, you're kind of looking and saying, OK, well, what else did he say that wasn't.... isn't something of priority for him?

MATT GALLOWAY: You mentioned the social conservatives. There is talk that social conservatives, Campaign Life and others, who say that they will, you know, move in this convention an issue on abortion. Erin O'Toole has said that he is pro-choice, but he's also said that this issue is settled. How big of a problem is that if there is a wing of the party that's going to push an issue that the leader has said is not up for debate and not up for discussion?

JENNI BYRNE: Well, abortion in the Conservative Party hasn't been up for... for really debate in... since the party was... since the party was created. So in terms of whether it's going to be debated at the at the policy convention, we'll see. My understanding... the... the... the... the policies that... that... that people in Campaign Life and what have you are talking about did not make it on the.... did not make it onto the discussion paper. There's policies are ranked by ridings, and... and it didn't... and it didn't make it there. So if it... I'm not sure which... where the opportunity would be for... for the policy to be to be debated. But I guess we'll see?

MATT GALLOWAY: But again, that goes back to the issue of division. How divided is the party if there is a wing of the party that keeps pushing an issue that, you know, successive leaders have said is not up for debate?

JENNI BYRNE: Well, I think that... listen, I think that Erin and his team do have issues. I don't think that it... I think it's... I don't think... it's too simplistic to say that it has to do with pro-life policy. I think, obviously, people within the people, people newly signed up to support Derek Sloan, for example... so but I think that Erin and his team going into the policy convention have have a much more broad set of issues they're going to have to deal with in terms of coming out of connvention. In terms of the support they have amongst the grassroots members.

MATT GALLOWAY: Your phone's breaking up, so I don't want to keep you too long. But one of the things that you talked about is the issue of the possible election. Again, this is... it's like a national pastime speculating when an election could come. Many people believe perhaps it could be an election this spring. What would that mean for Erin O'Toole? Does he have the unity of the party behind him to go into an election?

JENNI BYRNE: Well, nothing... nothing unites a party better than... better than a snap election call. So I think that... I think that the party would band together and... and... and we'd all.... we'd all fight to... fight to to to win. I think the problem Erin has, though, is... is that right now, the polling numbers are not... are not where they would want to be for Conservatives going into an election poll this spring.

MATT GALLOWAY: Why do you think that's the case?

JENNI BYRNE: Well, I don't know. It's the... these are the lowest polling numbers that we've had since the party was... sas created. So obviously, right now, be it people are happy with how Trudeau has handled COVID. Most most incumbent governments are getting by on how they've handled COVID. People are are generally happy with it. Who knows? But... but right now, the numbers are not where... Where you would want to be going into an election if you were Erin O'Toole or his people.

MATT GALLOWAY: How much of that do you put on his doorstep?

JENNI BYRNE: Well, it's the leader... the leader is the leader. And so, regardless of... regardless of whether everything is, quote, his fault or not, he's a leader. So the stops... the buck stops with him.

MATT GALLOWAY: Did you support him for the leadership of the party?

JENNI BYRNE: No, I didn't support anybody.

MATT GALLOWAY: Jenni Bryne, it's good to speak with you about this. I really appreciate it. Thank you very much.

JENNI BYRNE: Thanks so much. Have a good day.

MATT GALLOWAY: And you. Jenni Byrne, former adviser to Prime Minister Stephen Harper and a principal with Jenni Byrne and Associates. What is at stake for Erin O'Toole as he heads into the Conservative convention, which kicks off tomorrow? Our national affairs panel is here, Shachi Kurl, president of the Angus Reid Institute. Vassy Kapelos, the host of "Power & Politics" on the CBC News Network. Good morning to you both.

SHACHI KURL: Good morning!

VASSY KAPELOS: Hey, Matt!

MATT GALLOWAY: Vassy, we just heard from Jenni Byrne. What does that or how does that compare with what you're hearing from insiders within the Conservative Party?

VASSY KAPELOS: I think it's pretty much aligned. I think two things really stood out to me. First, that there's the possibility, of course, maybe... Maybe imminent, maybe not, of an election. And that necessitates a certain unified presence from the party. But secondly, that... that sense of unity is is not here at this juncture. And that's reflected in some of the caucus talk that you hear in the lead up to this convention and then also in the more generally in polls that I'm sure Shachi knows a whole lot [chuckling] more about. And so the challenge is a big one. And it kind of, I think, sets... sets the stage and sets the backdrop for how high the stakes are for Mr. O'Toole heading into his speech Friday.

MATT GALLOWAY: How high are those stakes?

VASSY KAPELOS: I think they're pretty high [chuckling] because if you take a little bit of a closer look at some of the polling, his... his own reception amongst Canadians is kind of wobbly right now, not even where it was when... when Andrew Scheer was at this stage of his leadership. Now, that has a lot to do, I think, with the greater context around this, that we're in a pandemic. And as Jenny pointed out, there's a lot of sort of goodwill towards governments at this point. But I think it's hard to diminish the fact that he... there's an issue with who he... like getting to know him, but also, people who do know him or do have an impression of him. It's not the most positive of impressions. And so that has been reflected through caucus as well. There's some confusion or lack of understanding about where he exactly is going to take the party? And that's why I say it kind of informs how high the stakes are because he's going to have to set that out to some degree with some degree of detail on Friday night to satisfy some of... I mean, I've had one MP tell me it's like borderline caucus revolt time. Now, that's just one MP. I don't know if that's necessarily the case, but there's... there is definitely some some negative rumblings among members of his own caucus. And that is almost more problematic at this stage of the game than even those wider poll numbers.

MATT GALLOWAY: Shachi, I could hear you in the background. Why don't you pick that up? And from a polling perspective, what are you hearing?

SHACHI KURL: Yeah, as Vassey talks, especially as you talk about a caucus revolt time, I can't help but reflect that, you know, we're now into a political era where the life of an opposition leader is so solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short. Like, you know, we used to give opposition leaders years and years [laughing] to find their feet. [Vassy chuckles] Now, if you can't seem to get it done in the first six months, the... the... the knives appear to be out. And, hey, we just passed the Ides of March. [a door swings in the background] But look, there... there are good things, maybe for Erin O'Toole. We can talk about those. But right now, he... he can't... he's he doesn't have the cities, right? He came out the night of his election and his ascendance to the Conservative leadership and said, I want women to vote Conservative. Right now, women are so turned off of Erin O'Toole and the Conservative Party. He Said, I want people in urban centres to vote for the Conservatives or feel that they can identify as Conservatives. Right now, the party is behind by double digits, sometimes by factors of four or five in the cities outside of Alberta and Saskatchewan. And we've talked about this, and Vassy mentioned it, too. He's being squeezed by both sides of... of the political spectrum. So, on one hand, his own base, the Conservative base, which, by the way, is itching for an election. If there is one segment of the Canadian population that actually wants to go right now, it's... It's past Conservative voters. They... they're more motivated by getting rid of Justin Trudeau than anything else. But they're worried about where he's going, so to speak, ideologically. And... and the Erin O'Toole, I do believe, knows that he has to pull the party to the centre. But that's making for this really awkward, kind of painful to watch transition. Because as he tries to move to the centre, there's a good chunk of his own base that says, hey, man, where are you going? And don't go over there!

MATT GALLOWAY: Vassy, how big of a problem is that? Jenni was hinting a little bit at some of the issues that Erin O'Toole ran on the leadership for and whether he has delivered on those issues? I mean even the reports that perhaps he wouldn't be as opposed to a carbon tax as he had suggested earlier on. How big of a problem is that for him?

VASSY KAPELOS: Well, look, I think... I think it is important to to put it in the context of the leadership race. Because I remember talking with you during it, and there was a very prominent theme throughout his campaign, true-blue, right? There wasn't a distinct appeal made, and ultimately one that ended up helping him become leader to... to a great degree, to the more right-leaning faction of the party. Now, you can say that includes social conservatives, but it includes a whole grouping of people. And he... he made a distinct appeal to them. And then the night that he won his leadership, you could see almost immediately, as Shachi referenced, an attempt to turn the page on that, to kind of pivot more towards the centre by saying, hey, if you're a member of the working-class, if you're a union member, if you live in a city, if you're a woman, like look in the mirror, you can be part of this party, too. The issue that he's faced is that it's not easy to go from saying one thing during the leadership campaign, which was not at the exclusion of those groups, but certainly not trying to appeal to them, in fact, dismissing his opponent, Peter McKay, for doing just that. And then all of a sudden say, hey, hey, everyone, that I didn't really talk to you during this campaign. I'd really like to appeal to you now. And so the secondary part to that is then you have to follow up those words with distinct actions or policies or something to that effect. And so far, you know, as opposition parties do, and especially during a pandemic, most of what we've heard from Mr. O'Toole has centred around opposing a lot of what the Liberals have put forward, which fine, again, that's what opposition parties do. But now is the time where he's going to have to present some sort of alternative vision and something that addresses the interests of those people he says he wants to appeal to.

MATT GALLOWAY: Just briefly, I mean, on the social conservative issue, if he says that he is pro-choice and says the issue of abortion is not up for discussion, but there are folks who are still pressing for that. What's their endgame in doing that, do you think, Vassy?

VASSY KAPELOS: Well, I think, I mean, first of all, in my mind, I sort of distinguish between people who are socially conservative, who maybe have beliefs that are around the issue of abortion, pro-life, but don't necessarily vote on that single issue. Because there are a lot of people in the Conservative Party, and I think the leadership of that party beyond Mr. O'Toole even wants to make sure that they stay in the tent. And then there are, I think, what you're referencing, which is, for example, the Campaign for Life Coalition, these single-issue voters and organized mechanisms for pushing forward that issue. And... and it's very interesting to watch because the one thing he has been right since day one, his first press conference, is pretty clear about where he stands on that issue. He cited his own voting record. He hasn't... he hasn't waffled like his predecessor did. But yet, as you point out, it hasn't quelled that... those interest groups from... from trying to insert themselves very prominently even into this week's debate. I mean, I think it's because of the... the issue at hand. They obviously want it to be more on the table. They see the Conservative Party as the only potential home for that issue that has the ability to eventually become in power. But... but it's been so problematic for the party in the past that those... I just find it interesting to see the attempts to quell it. And how successful or not... I mean, really, the last leader that was able to do that was Stephen Harper, right? Kind of cut the debate, stop it short and in a way, at some... at some points, move on from it. But since then, they've really struggled to be able to do it.

MATT GALLOWAY: Shachi, what's your understanding of the appetite the Canadians have for an election? We're still in this pandemic, a third wave apparently on the doorstep of some provinces right now. Do Canadians want an election?

SHACHI KURL: Not right now. Not through the summer, I think.... and we at the Angus Reid Institute put out new data this morning evidencing that. So I'm not... it's not just my gut. It's... it's actually what Canadians are thinking. As you get later into the year, as you get into the fall, there is a distinct shift between saying an election, you now, September forewords would be more appropriate than an election through the spring or the late summer. The big X Factor, of course, is... is what happens with Justin Trudeau and the Liberals? Right now, they... they continue to to hold a measure of daylight between themselves and the Conservatives. They continue to lead in polls regardless of who's conducting them. Justin Trudeau's numbers, well, they go down. They go up. They're on a downswing at the moment. If we start to see Canadians in a more forgiving mood through the spring, he may be able to capitalize on that. But so... so there isn't.... the question, though, around timing of elections is that as much as people may say they don't want one, it is fairly rare for voters to actually punish a politician for calling an election. They may grumble about it, they may be annoyed about it, but it's you have to be pretty ticked off at a government and really, really want to change to punish them over... over a selfish or craven or an advantageously timed election call. So what that says is it gives Erin O'Toole actually a little bit more time, a little bit more runway to introduce himself to Canadians in the way he wants to. But the clock's ticking on that. He's going to have to define himself, and where he wants the party to go. And keep the caucus and the base onside before the Liberals do it for him. So that's why we're seeing the ads out this week saying, hi, I'm Erin O'Toole. I'm a hard working guy. I would say, though, that right now, he's also got to pick his issues very carefully. Because frankly, where... where does the base grow? He needs to pick up voters in the centre and voters slightly to the left. He can't win without them. And they are not registering that they care about the deficit or government spending at all. That could change, but they don't care now.

MATT GALLOWAY: Right. Vassy, in the last 30 seconds or so that we have. I mean, to some people this can be inside baseball, but the Conservatives are the official opposition. Why should people be paying attention to this now?

VASSY KAPELOS: Well it might be inside baseball, but a lot of people voted for them [laughing] a lot of Canadians. In fact, they won the popular vote. They increased their share of the popular vote in the last election. And I mean, they are the official opposition. They essentially are the primary opposers of whatever... and challengers to what the Liberals put forward. And having that check on government power is never a bad thing. So it's important whether or not they are actually representing your interests as a Canadian. And certainly, you never know what can happen in anelection. I was just going to say with what Shachi said, I know that given the polls, it looks like, hey, the Liberals would be out way in front. And that certainly looks to be the case at this juncture. But nothing unifies a party like having to go to an election, right? And so it's maybe not the worst thing in the world that one is on the horizon because I'm not sure they're going to want to overthrow their leader in the months in the lead up to... to such a thing.

MATT GALLOWAY: Good to speak with you both, as always.

VASSY KAPELOS: Although, stranger things have happened. [all laughing]. They sure have.

MATT GALLOWAY: And when that happens, we'll have you back. It's good to speak with you both this morning. Thank you.

SHACHI KURL: Thank you!

VASSY KAPELOS: Thans, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: Shachi Kurl, president of the Angus Reid Institute. Vassy Kapelos, host of "Power & Politics" on CBC News Network. Your CBC News is next. And then, we will talk about institutional racism within the federal public service and a class-action lawsuit to address it. I'm Matt Galloway. This is "The Current".

Black civil servants allege years of discrimination

Guest: Caroline Lane, Armondo, Don Oliver

MATT GALLOWAY: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. And you're listening to "The Current".

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MATT GALLOWAY: Still to come, melting sea ice in Canada's north isn't just the potential end of vital ecosystems. It's also threatening entire cultures. But first, a defining class-action lawsuit for Canada's civil service.

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MATT GALLOWAY: Nine months ago, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau spoke about a persistent problem within the federal civil service,

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: AntiBlack racism is happening here everywhere in Canada. This is something that our own staff, cabinet ministers and colleagues face, even in these halls. We hear your calls for justice, equality and accountability.

MATT GALLOWAY: For some people, those words were too little, too late. In December, 12 people launched a 900-million dollar class-action lawsuit against the federal government. There are now 520 people as part of that suit. And they allege decades of discrimination and institutional barriers for the advancement of Black people in the federal public service. Caroline Lane is one of the plaintiffs. She is retired from the RCMP. Armondo has also joined the class action suit. That's not his real name. We've agreed to protect his identity because he's afraid of repercussions at work. Good morning to you both.

BOTH: Good morning.

MATT GALLOWAY: Armondo, I'll get to the specifics in a moment. But broadly, how would you describe working as a member of the civil service as a Black man?

ARMONDO: It is... it's difficult. I've been working with the federal public service now for over 10 years. I work in IT, so I kind of get to avoid a lot of... a lot of people. I'm just basically dealing with my computer all day. So that does make it a bit easier for me in that sense. But, you know, as far as moving up within... within the public service, you know, I've been stuck at the bottom since I started.

MATT GALLOWAY: Stuck at the bottom?

ARMONDO: Yeah, stuck at the bottom, right? And that's where I am today. Since I've been there, I haven't seen any Black male or female employees in management positions or obviously any executive positions. And in, you know, over 10 years I've been there, I've only seen maybe two or three other Black employees in my department as a whole.

MATT GALLOWAY: Let me ask you just quickly about the lack of promotion. I mean, what were... I'm prying a little bit here, but what were the reviews that you had like? I mean, do you have generally a good reputation and good reviews at work?

ARMONDO: Yeah, we... we get reviews bi-annually, and I've had nothing but positive reviews. Even people hired after me have been moving up. And so it's fairly obvious that something is going on.

MATT GALLOWAY: When you say something's going on, what do you mean?

ARMONDO: I really can't put my finger on what exactly it is. It's, you know, it's like... like it's just the institutional racism that exists.

MATT GALLOWAY: Do you think you're not being promoted --.

ARMONDO: In Canada.

MATT GALLOWAY: You think you're not being promoted because you're a Black man?

ARMONDO: That's how I feel, yes.

MATT GALLOWAY: Yeah. Caroline, what about for you? I mean, what was life like for you at the RCMP in terms of a career trajectory.

CAROLINE LANE: In terms of a career trajectory, if someone comes in that is white, that person will more have the inclination of getting to become a supervisor instead of you. And also, if I might add, we don't really give somebody a supervisory position because of how good their assessment is. The assessment for me is always very good, but they would give... you... you get a promotion because you are friends with the staff sergeant or friends of somebody or somebody else or a relative or something. But for me, where I worked when I joined the RCMP, I started in an area called Telecom Squad, and I just moved from department to department as the time progressed. And it's just your move. You do the work, but moving up through promotion, being a Black person. And when I joined the RCMP, I was the only Black person on my floor for a long time.

MATT GALLOWAY: Did you feel like you were part of the team?

CAROLINE LANE: Not really. I didn't really feel I was part of the team, even though I do the work, and they appreciate what is done because I do it up to their standards. Yet still, I'm not because, no, I'm never part of the team. [chuckling]

MATT GALLOWAY: Were there ever moments when you were working there when you felt as though you were being excluded or separated from the team?

CAROLINE LANE: Oh, yes. There are many times I feel that I was excluded, and I've seen it.

MATT GALLOWAY: Just tell me about one briefly.

CAROLINE LANE: They might be... we might be having what we call [chuckling] a taedown. And they would call somebody else to come in and work with them, even though I helped to provide and get all the equipment, et cetera, but I would never be the one withing that when it's actually taking place. It would be somebody else.

MATT GALLOWAY: And how much of that do you assign to race? I mean, how much of that do you think was because you're a Black woman working in that institution?

CAROLINE LANE: Oh, I know that's because I'm a Black woman working in that institution. For example, when we... there was a phone call came in when I was on the detachment. And the phone call was being taken. I didn't take the phone call. I didn't make a phone call. But the staff sergeant accused me of making a phone call to Jamaica because it was a phone call made to Jamaica. And I am not from Jamaica. I don't know anyone in Jamaica. But still, he accused me. And even though I said to him, I denied it, I denied. Yet still, and to the end, when they realized that it was the project that they were working on, the copper told me, oh, it wasn't you. It was our project. And the staff sergeant never apologized.

MATT GALLOWAY: Did you ever think about complaining about what you were facing at work?

CAROLINE LANE: No. If you mention it to your subordinates, they're all... it was like the buddy system. So even though you complain, they would say to you, if I just saai to any of my co-workers, you notice what's going on? They are doing such and such. They would say, oh, I don't need... I don't want any part of it. And even though you complain, where's it going? [chuckling] they're all one. It's a buddy system.

MATT GALLOWAY: Armondo, there was an incident in which... what? You were trying to find a boardroom for a meeting. What happened?

ARMONDO: A federal building to attend a meeting. And I was stopped by another employee of the public service. She asked me if there's something she could help me find? What I was doing there. And I told her no with with a puzzled look. And she then walked away, immediately called security. And I was then surrounded by three security guards, probably not even a minute later. They demanded I tell them what I was doing there. At this point, I was obviously extremely frustrated, annoyed, offended. So I just made the decision I wasn't going to attend that meeting. I was going to leave and report the incident to my management so they would know why I wasn't at the meeting. I was stopped from leaving by one of the security guards until I went along with his request and... and told him what I was doing there. So at this point, I took my cell phone out, started recording and made it clear that all I was trying to do was leave. I was grabbed, thrown to the ground. Very quickly after, the two other security guards came and grabbed me from behind, and then I was punched in the face by one of the... by the initial security guard who threw me to the ground. At that point, police were called. So they went to the security guards. We were all still standing around each other. And then came directly to me and told me I was under arrest for assault. So I was then put in handcuffs, searched, myself, the police officer, the security guards all then went to the security office in that building. The video footage showed exactly what I had just said to you happened. And at that point, the police officer then took me outside of the building and told me from what he saw on the camera I didn't assault anyone. And I was clearly just trying to leave. I then looked at him and said, well, I was the one who was assaulted. At that time, my eye was starting to swell up. And I had a cut under my eye that was bleeding. And he looked at me and said, yes, I can see that. But the video was pretty grainy. And that was... that was his conclusion. So I then said, OK, and left. that was that.

MATT GALLOWAY: I want you both to to stay on the line. I want to bring another voice into this conversation. Don Oliver is a retired Canadian senator. He's been listening to our discussion. Don Oliver, good morning to you.

DON OLIVER: Oh, good morning to you, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: What do you make of what you've heard?

DON OLIVER: Well, I think that it's typical of the others in the 520 plaintiffs in the class-action suit who are complaining about discrimination and lack of advancement opportunities, harassment and so on. And in this last case from Armondo about the harassment, it is just frightening. And there are a number of Black women who would have equally frightening stories about harassment of them as well in the public service. And the class-action suit could not have come soon enough because these stories have to be told, and something has to be done about it.

MATT GALLOWAY: Why are we still talking about this in 2021 in the federal civil service?

DON OLIVER: I think that there's a lack of really wanting to do something from the top. Now, I think that we've... the death of George Floyd, which was watched live on TV in real-time around the world, made people say enough is enough. Enough is enough, and it's time that we did something. And so our prime minister, you quoted it at the beginning of the show, everywhere in Canada, and every single day, there's systemic racism against Blacks. And that his... his government is listening. But in the class-action suit, you will note that they talk about the Employment Equity Act that defines women, the disabled and... and then there's another category called visible minorities, but nowhere is there a category for Blacks. And so, for decades, people of African descent or Black people have had difficulty having an identity that could be dealt with either in the courts or elsewhere. And one of the things the prime minister could have done by one easy step is to have amended the Employment Equity Act, and taken Black people, people of African descent, out of the definition of a visible minority for which there are 77 different countries that could be a visible minority. So... and if he took them out and we had a special category, then it would be much easier for Black people to make their case about discrimination, harassment and lack of advancement opportunities and lack of promotions and so on. So... so I think there's been a lack of leadership from the very, very top.

MATT GALLOWAY: The Treasury board sent us a statement pointing to, and perhaps this hints at what you're discussing, a number of of new measures, including money for a dedicated centre on diversity and inclusion within the federal public service. An action plan to increase representation and leadership development. Will those moves account for much when it comes to change?

DON OLIVER: No, it's what I call bureaucratic window dressing. Twelve-million dollars for a centre on diversity. We don't need a centre for diversity. We need concrete plans of action where each department headed by a deputy minister said we're going to have a target that within five years, five per cent of people in the senior levels of the public service of Canada, senior EX levels, are going to be Black.

MATT GALLOWAY: Caroline, are you confident that the class-action lawsuit will help push this forward?

CAROLINE LANE: I think so.

MATT GALLOWAY: Why did you join the class-action lawsuit?

CAROLINE LANE: Because I would like people to know exactly what was taking place within the establishment. And also, for the young people who is coming up that they wouldn't face the same thing like what we faced.

MATT GALLOWAY: Armondo, for you, I mean, why is it important to be part of this class-action lawsuit, given what you've gone through?

ARMONDO: To me, right now, the situation seems pretty hopeless. And that's how I felt about my position. And being able to move up is... is pretty much hopeless. So I would probably feel better about moving up if I was flipping burgers at McDonald's or something. At least, you know, I'd have some sense of hope. Right now, I have zero.

MATT GALLOWAY: Don Oliver, what's at stake if this isn't addressed in a meaningful way?

DON OLIVER: If the class action suit doesn't proceed, they're going to be other actions taken because this has to be remedied. The prime minister really has to follow his own words. And when he says, we've got your back, we're all in this together and our government is listening. You've listened long enough. Now do something for Black people in Canada.

MATT GALLOWAY: Don Oliver, it's good to speak with you about this. Thank you very much.

DON OLIVER: Thank you.

MATT GALLOWAY: And Caroline and Armondo, I appreciate you speaking about your stories as well. Thank you.

CAROLINE LANE: You're most welcome.

ARMONDO: Thank you.

MATT GALLOWAY: Don Oliver is a retired Progressive Conservative senator. Caroline Lane worked with the RCMP for 37 years. Armondo is still working as a civil servant. And again, we've agreed not to reveal his real name because he fears repercussions at work. Courtney Betty is the lead counsel on this class-action lawsuit. He is a former Crown attorney. Courtney Betty, good morning to you.

COURTNEY BETTY: Hey, good morning, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: How common are those stories that we just heard?

COURTNEY BETTY: What you're hearing this morning is really such incredibly painful stories, especially from individuals who have served 30, 35 years in the public service and the elderly individuals from 1970, 1980, 1990. Their stories are just I've labelled it atrocities.

MATT GALLOWAY: What is the claim arguing? This is a civil suit claim for more than 900-million dollars? What's the claim exactly?

COURTNEY BETTY: Well, there's two points to it. If you take a look at the situation, we're finding many individuals that worked for 30 years received zero promotion. And if you work for 30 years and you receive zero promotion, it means that you've suffered not only the harassment and all of these other things that you heard this morning, but you've suffered a tremendous financial loss without getting a promotion. And then afterwards, you retire, and then all of a sudden, your pension is now further impacted because you've also not received a promotion again. So it becomes a life, I would say, of perpetual servitude, where you're facing the challenges within the workplace. But after 10 years, you're not getting promoted, so you're not getting the financial benefit. And then you retire, and then all of a sudden you find that your pension is such that you've now got to go get a part-time job or you're living close to the poverty line. So those are the real horror stories that I'm seeing, especially from the individuals, as I said, that served in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s. Not that it's not tough for the new generation. But certainly, their pain is is incredible. The other thing, Matt, is 70 per cent of individuals in our claim are female. And that the challenges of Black women in the public service is just a whole other painful story. For many of them, the kind of harassment and things that they have to go through just to be able to feed their family.

MATT GALLOWAY: How do you go about determining that the lack of promotion that... that somebody would have over the course of the career is due to race?

COURTNEY BETTY: What we've done, Matt, is very interesting. We've just looked at it as strictly a data game where we have, you know, individuals, scientists, statisticians, just everyone that we've brought together, social scientists looking at the patterns. So this is really not as much a case about some of the individual stories that you're hearing. This is a case about a statistical data point. You know, if we look at, for example, the pictures of all the individuals, the vast majority of individuals within management over the last 30 years, you're going to find that less than one per cent of those positions are held by Black people. So that's really it's a statistical significance. We don't have to drill down. We can actually prove that someone's been employed. They've worked. All their assessments have been fine. There are mechanisms within the public service that actually prevent their promotion. And so we're bringing those forward.

MATT GALLOWAY: You were also a federal play at one time working in the Department of Justice as a Crown attorney. How did that experience shape what you're talking about and the work that you're taking now?

COURTNEY BETTY: Well, that experience actually is probably the reason that I'm... one of the reasons I'm actually doing this case. I was fortunate, Matt. I ended up in the Department of Justice. I had great mentors. I learned a lot. I was trained very well. But I did experience racism. I did experience discrimination. But at that time, being young and naive, you kind of dismiss it a little bit, or you try and rationalize it.

MATT GALLOWAY: What do you mean you rationalised it? Because I think that's important in the context of this larger conversation about what is or isn't happening within the civil service in terms of the promotion and recognition of Black employees.

COURTNEY BETTY: Well, I started off with a great manager, and... Aad just a great environment. There were changes that happened. A new manager came in from Ottawa. And that manager that came in from Ottawa was very destructive to Black employees in his department. I just happened to be one of them. But initially, when you're there, and there are not too many other Blacks there, you start thinking, well, you know, you start questioning yourself, you start questioning your own judgement or your own capabilities. But when you see a pattern, and this is what we're looking at, we can literally take, let's say, the Department of Justice, and we can look at from 1980 to 1990, who were the managers? Who are these individuals that were there? And we can look at the impact on the Black employees. But initially, you do question, you know, am I the problem? Rather than... than seeing that others have a game plan that doesn't include you.

MATT GALLOWAY: What response have you had from the federal government since you filed this claim?

COURTNEY BETTY: The federal government has given not much response. I know it is a judicial process that's going to be ongoing. I think the way that I look at it Matt, and I'm not going to comment in terms of the case and all of those other things, but there is another side to it. You know, I'm very disappointed because I thought, and you ask the question, why are we still dealing with this in 2021? And I thought that our government, this present government, who has waived the multicultural flag, who has waved the equality flag, who has waved the flag of gender equality, that this would have been their moment in time to step forward and said, hey, you know, we've got a problem. Let us try and address it, at least for the seniors who may not be with us much longer. But so far, it's just really been a really hollow statement that's been made by the government. And at this point, I have no expectation at all that the government will do the right thing as it relates to black public service employees. That... that optimism that I had has been destroyed.

MATT GALLOWAY: What is the right thing?

COURTNEY BETTY: The right thing is for number one, the government should do as Senator Oliver has pointed out. The Blacks make up 20 per cent of visible minorities under the Employment Equity Act. And if we're invisible, then we have a problem. So we need to adjust the Employment Equity Act and include a separate class for Black individuals. It's just a natural thing to do. We just happen to be the most... the most visible minority. But yet, we're invisible. So that's number one. Number two, the prime minister owes an apology to all of these Black individuals who have served this country so well over the last 50 years. And that needs to happen. And then third, for those individuals who have suffered financially, there should be compensation.

MATT GALLOWAY: The Treasury board in its statement to us said that it wouldn't comment on the lawsuit because it's at an early stage, but did point to steps to address antiBlack racism, systemic discrimination, injustice across the country, including, as I mentioned, that centre on diversity and inclusion, an anti-racism strategy and a secretariat. And a call to action on anti-racism in the public service. What do you make of those actions?

COURTNEY BETTY: I can go back, Matt, and I can pull the same statements from 1970, 75, 1980, 85, 90. Those statements have all been made before. It's the same game plan that the government is using right now. There's nothing different.

MATT GALLOWAY: Courtney, Betty, good to speak with you about this. Thank you very much.

COURTNEY BETTY: Have a great day, Matt. Thank you so much.

MATT GALLOWAY: Bye-bye. Courtney Betty is the lead counsel on the class-action lawsuit filed by current and former Black federal employees in Canada. He is also a former Crown attorney. Well, coming up after your regional update, Globe and Mail health columnist Andre Picard will be here to walk us through the latest on the AstraZeneca vaccine and the reality of a third wave of COVID. Just what you wanted to hear. Apparently, the third wave is already here in some provinces. We'll talk more about that with Andre coming up. And we'll head north where melting sea ice is having disastrous consequences on the environment and a way of life. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to "The Current". We're back in 90 seconds. Stay with us.

[Music: Theme]

André Picard on the AstraZeneca vaccine; and how changing sea ice

Guests: Andre Picard, Derrick Pottle, Rex Holwell

MATT GALLOWAY: Hi. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to "The Current". Over the past few weeks, much has been made around the safety of AstraZeneca as a vaccine against COVID-19. Health Canada has assured Canadians there is no need for concern.

MAN: At this point in time, based on the information that has been reviewed by Health Canada, there is no safety concern with the an adverse event. But we're actively looking into the issue.

MATT GALLOWAY: Not everyone sees it the same way. Several countries in Europe have suspended the rollout of this vaccine after cases of blood clots in people who had gotten the shot. And now, some Canadians are refusing to take the AstraZeneca vaccine. On top of this, there's now concern that we are heading into or perhaps already in a third wave of COVID. Andre Picard is The Globe and Mail's health columnist. Andre, good morning.

ANDRE PICARD: Good morning. How concerning is it to you that these European countries have suspended the AstraZeneca vaccine rollout?

ANDRE PICARD: I think it's not overly concerning. You know, it's not a bad thing to air on the side of caution, especially when you have alternatives. They have a lot of vaccines of different sorts. So it's not a great concern scientifically. I think the communications aspect, though, is a little bit scary. It's hard for the public to sort all this out.

MATT GALLOWAY: Tell me more about that because there are questions as to whether this is about science or politics or some area in between.

ANDRE PICARD: I'd say probably some area in between. So, you know, when new vaccines roll out, we watch very carefully for... for signals that things could be going badly. And when you have a drug that's been used to right now, there's been 400-million vaccines done for coronavirus. A very large number in a very short period. There's all kinds of things going on. So you're trying to figure out are they caused by the vaccine? Is it just haphazard? Is it chance? And it's hard to to figure out those signals from the noise. And I think that's what scientists around the world and regulators around the world are trying to figure out.

MATT GALLOWAY: Well, and you talk about regulators, Health Canada said yesterday that it's the same proportion of blood clots that would be expected for the population outside of a vaccination campaign. So do we know if there is any causal link between those blood clots and the vaccine?

ANDRE PICARD: There doesn't seem to be. So the consensus, I think the larger consensus is no. It seems to be about the normal number. But this is a little concerning things. The people who are getting these blood clots tend to be young. They're happening in little spurts. You know, and some countries have many more per capita than others. So it's hard to sort out. But overall, it probably is just normal noise. It's just normal number of clots. You know, when you get a vaccine, it protects you against the virus, but it doesn't protect you against all the other bad stuff that can go on in your life. And it's hard to to sort that out. And these kind of fears they're actually quite common, and they almost never pan out. So we have to try and keep that context.

MATT GALLOWAY: In the midst of it, in the midst of this pandemic, how do the suspension's of the vaccine campaigns in those European countries impact the confidence that Canadians have in this vaccine?

ANDRE PICARD: Oh, I think there's no question that it scares the public. They're not sure what to make of this. We really have to think about how these regulators communicate with the public. It's not... normally, these are groups that meet in back rooms and have scientific debates. And now the whole world, the spotlight of the whole world is on them. So their little musings that they would normally make that no one pays attention to have now been blown up into headlines around the world. So it's a very different context for their communication.

MATT GALLOWAY: What should be done? I mean, the U.K. Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, has said that he's going to get the AstraZeneca vaccine. And you're tweeting about leaders getting that shot. Should our prime minister get... get the AstraZeneca shot?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, those are really difficult cultural, political issues, right? So in Canada, do we want our prime minister to be a leader and get the shot first, or are we going to denounce them for queue jumping? There are different responses in different countries. I think in Canada, unfortunately, we have a fairly hyper-partisan reality right now. I think the prime minister would probably come out a loser if he got vaccinated before his time in the queue, you know, based on age. So it's hard. I think it is very different. In the U.S., we saw the leaders go be among the first to get vaccinated. But a different cultural context.

MATT GALLOWAY: You're suggesting that perhaps all of the leaders of the major parties in this country could get the same shot?

ANDRE PICARD: Yeah, I think that would at least prevent them pointing fingers at each other. It would be a nice symbolic gesture if the five leaders went and lined up and got their shot. It would be a nice photo op, too, for us in the media.

MATT GALLOWAY: Let me just ask you one final question about the hesitancy issue. We talked about this yesterday on the programme about vaccine hesitancy, particularly within the Black communities in this country, and how community leaders are trying to address this. What do you have to tell people to to calm the concerns that they might have? And how should that conversation unfold?

ANDRE PICARD: I think we have to be honest with people. We have to say it's OK to be worried. It's OK to have questions, but overall, the bottom line is that the benefits far, far outweigh the risks. So I think that's the message we have to get. I think, especially with many racialized communities, there's good reasons to be skeptical. The way they've been mistreated in the past. They've been lied to. Used as guinea pigs. There's a lot of baggage there. And we have to address that baggage and not just say, oh, these groups aren't being good citizens by not getting vaccinated. We have to understand this stuff and we have to work at it slowly.

MATT GALLOWAY: Let's talk about where we're at in this pandemic. It seems as though we're moving through it slowly, perhaps not quickly enough for many people. And there are worries about a potential third wave. The Ontario Hospital Association said this week the province is heading into its third wave. The province's science table said that were already there. What is a third wave mean?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, a third wave means there's going to be a rise in cases. So we're already seeing that. We're seeing that in many provinces, Ontario, Alberta, Saskatchewan, BC are all seeing their cases creep back up. Now, the question is really not whether we're having a third wave. That seems like we are because of the variants. It's fuelled by these new variants. But the question is, how big is the wave going to be? So I think that's the real unknown question. We'll have a sense of that in the next seven to 10 days. Is this just a little ripple that, you know, we don't have to worry about? Or is this really another wave like we saw in the spring and then back again in the fall?

MATT GALLOWAY: What do we know about how the vaccines work against those variants, in particular the variant first seen in the U.K.? Because that seems to be the dominant one being found here in Canada?

ANDRE PICARD: Yeah, we don't know exactly. There are indications they don't work quite as well. But the... that... that variant from the U.K., that originated in the UK, the B.1.1.7. The vaccine seemed to work fairly well against that one. Much more concerning is the other B.1.3.5.1, which originated in South Africa. The vaccine's seem to work much less well with that one. And we're starting to see a little bit of those cases in Canada. But, you know, now in Ontario, the dominant strain is that B.1.1.7, The U.K. strain. So this changes the game a little bit. But I think what it does, it makes it all the more urgent to get vaccinated quickly. Because if... if the virus isn't spreading, it doesn't matter what the variant is. It's not spreading. So that... that, I think, brings some sense of urgency to rolling out our vaccine.

MATT GALLOWAY: I spoke with Major-General Danny Fortin earlier this week. He is in charge of Canada's rollout of those vaccines. And he said that he believed this country would be ready for when the large shipments start to arrive within the next few weeks. Do you think that the provinces and territories are ready to... to really ramp up their vaccination programs?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, one has to hope so. There's certainly at this point there's no more excuses allowed, right? We've been talking about this incessantly. The vaccines are coming. They're coming. We better be ready. And we better not mess it up.

MATT GALLOWAY: In the meantime, you're seeing again this possible third wave. You're seeing some provinces starting to loosen restrictions. In BC, they're allowing outdoor gatherings of upwards of 10 people, for example. Dr. Bonnie Henry, the provincial health officer, speaking about some return to normal in time for the summer. The Atlantic Bubble could be rebuilt and reconstituted. And folks in that bubble are also looking at when people from outside of Atlantic Canada could come and visit because tourism is so important. What's the risk in moving too quickly while all of what we've been talking about is still swirling around?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, the risk is ultimately that how big that next wave will be. This vaccination is not going to stop the spread entirely. What it's going to do is mitigate it. And the more we open up, the more difficult mitigation becomes. You know, one of the numbers that jumped out at me yesterday was BC yesterday had as many cases as Quebec. So, you know, when they start talking about loosening up, you have to say, well, what's going on? You know, are you really ready to open up under these circumstances?

MATT GALLOWAY: But is part of that also just about the public mood? That a year into this, we're in a different space than we were a year ago?

ANDRE PICARD: Oh, there's no question it becomes with each passing day, each passing week, it gets more difficult to maintain restrictions, to bring in new ones. It's politically a very difficult place to be in. And you're trying to find that balance between giving people more freedom but not allowing the virus to run rampant. And, you know, I personally think when we're vaccinating, we do have to reward people in some way. You can't just say you've been sacrificing all this time. We've been telling you vaccines are a solution and then say, well, nothing's going to change. We have to find that balance of of reward, but mitigating risk.

MATT GALLOWAY: Just finally, I mean, so many of us are looking for optimism. Where are you seeing optimism a year into this?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, I think the optimism is the vaccines are working better than we ever imagined. Cases really are getting controlled in many countries. Even in Canada. In Canada, I think one of the most optimistic things is what's finally happening in our long-term care settings. There are virtually no new cases. There was a day last week there were no deaths in these homes. And that's... this is what's been fuelling our pandemic in Canada. So that really is a source of optimism. Unfortunately, it came at a horrific cost, but it is something that gives us hope.

MATT GALLOWAY: Andre, great to talk to you, as always. Thank you very much.

ANDRE PICARD: Thank you.

MATT GALLOWAY: Andre Picard, The Globe and Mail health columnist for. I might ask you the same question. Where are you finding optimism in this? You can let us know through email: thecurrent@cbc.ca. This is "The Current". My name is Matt Galloway. Climate change has, in many parts of the world, forever changed not just environments but the lives of people who live there. This reality is now being felt dramatically in parts of Newfoundland and Labrador. Communities there rely on the winter freeze of sea ice. And this year, that freeze hasn't come. Derrick Pottle is a hunter and sculptor in Rigolet, Labrador. Derrick, good morning.

DERRICK POTTLE: Hey, good morning.

MATT GALLOWAY: What's happening with the sea ice this winter?

DERRICK POTTLE: The lack of sea ice in many places, it's... it's not a lot of ice. Between the warm temperatures for long extended periods into the pluses, the ice haven't formed at all. And when they do get a chance to form, we get very, very severe wind. And it breaks up the ice, and it doesn't have time to catch up to reform again.

MATT GALLOWAY: Describe what that looks like?

DERRICK POTTLE: Well, it looks like open water in many areas where it should be ice. Last week, myself and my wife travelled to one of our hunting cabins about 100, 130 kilometres east northeast of here. And we had to go over... over to land instead of on the sea ice because there was no ice. And what little bit of ice was there was just like you could see water through it.

MATT GALLOWAY: For people who aren't familiar with how important the ice is, I mean, what... what does good sea ice mean for your community?

DERRICK POTTLE: It means accessibility to the areas that we utilize in our home territory. We don't have road access this time of the year. We have access by snowmobile or by a Twin Otter service, which is a daily service, a very expensive daily service into the communities. So in many, many situations, people use the sea ice. It's our highway. It's our connection to community. It gives us access to be out on the land. And we have one northern store here that's very, very sparsely-stocked and very expensive. So, yeah, the sea ice, it gives us means to move around in our homeland.

MATT GALLOWAY: Given the fact that the ice is so unpredictable right now, what's it like to go out... when... when there actually is some layer of ice there, what's it like to go out on that ice that's not... that's not as solid as perhaps it should be?

DERRICK POTTLE: Well, it's dangerous. It's very dangerous. You know, people... people have lost their lives. People have lost equipment. And, you know, we were taught from a very young age to respect the ice and to understand it. But when... when the ice doesn't form proper, you get a lot of snow on it, even for the most experienced people, it becomes a challenge because you have a layer of snow onto it, it could be just open water underneath it. So it's very difficult to predict what's underneath your... underneath your feet or underneath your snowmobile.

MATT GALLOWAY: Have you ever gone through the ice?

DERRICK POTTLE: Several times, yes.

MATT GALLOWAY: What's that like?

DERRICK POTTLE: Cold and wet and scary. Snowmobiles today, Matt, are these machines are probably upwards of between 500 to 1,000 pounds each machine. And if you imagine taking of 800-pound rock and throwing it in the water, there's no buoyancy to it. And that's the same thing as, what, a snowmobile. And it sinks very fast. And if you became entangled or hooked onto any part of that snowmobile or equipment, you're going to go down with it.

MATT GALLOWAY: And is that what you say when you talk about I mean, understanding the ice is that you need to in some ways, from that point of respect, be able to read the ice and see what's going on with it?

DERRICK POTTLE: Yes. Yes, sir. That's exactly what it is. You know, as ice ages, it has different colour formations to it. Where the pressure ridges the ice is solider, different colours. Like new ice that's probably a day or two old is very dark, very black. You can almost see the water through it. And as saltwater ice ages, it becomes... it becomes greyer or whiter. And that's the ice that we look for. And this year, 2020 and 2021 is probably about the worst year that I've seen for... for sea ice. As I described to you earlier, last week when my wife and I were travelling, we're on the Atlantic coast, right on the ocean. And you go up on the land and get up on a high point. And as far as your eyes can see to the ocean is ocean water. There's... there's no ice in the... in the ocean. And, you know, that should be, as far as your eye could see, should be land fast ice extending off into the horizons, but it's not there. Not this year.

MATT GALLOWAY: For hunting, what is the role of the ice and how important would that be in terms of your culture?

DERRICK POTTLE: As Inuit, the sea ice it's part of our identity. We still harvest a lot of cases of marine mammals. Seals is a big part of my diet. We have a small quota of polar bears that we harvest that's governed and restricted by the government. And, you know, for the most part, that's where polar bears and seals live to is on the ice or on the sea edge. There's also the rivers and ponds. I mean, this year, the rivers haven't even frozen over. As we speak, you can go to a river and just dip a water bottle down and get fresh water. You don't even need to chop ice anymore.

MATT GALLOWAY: What happens if this continues? I mean, what do you think is... is at risk of being lost if this year turns out to be what's happening next year and the year after and that ice doesn't form in the way that it should?

DERRICK POTTLE: Well, it's... it's twofold. You know, it's going to impact, you know, the animals and the mammals after a while. I mean, seals, for example, there are some species of seals that we harvest. They have to have an ice platform and a good snow depth to have their young. They give birth on the ice, on the sea ice, and they live in a snow house. Without that, they wouldn't survive. So if this is going to continue on, like down the road, if this is the way that things are going to be, it's very concerning as to, you know, right now, as I said earlier, snowmobiles are the only easiest access that we have to be in on on the land. ATVs and Hondas and all-terrain vehicles, the land is so rough. And in order for us to travel comfortably over that, we have to have a snow base. And a snowmobile is by far the best modes of transportation. So it's very, very concerning as to, you know, what... what the future's going to hold for us if this trend keeps up.

MATT GALLOWAY: What do you tell your children and grandchildren about this?

DERRICK POTTLE: Well, you know, we reminisce about when I started to... when after I got married on my own in the late 70s and started my family, we were living on the land for the most part, trapping and hunting and making a living from the land. And I could cross over the inlets. This would be, you know, late 70s, early 80s. I could cross over the inlets on at least two-foot of sea ice in mid-November. Now this year, well, after the new year, in probably the second week, third week into January, before we could cross over into that same area to get to where our traditional hunting and trapping zones are, too. So I reminisce with my children and my grandchildren. These are the changes that I've seen in a very short period of time. So we're all concerned about if this trend is a part of our future. I think our future, our way of life is going to come, if not to an end, is going to come to a very different way that we're used to in a very short period of time.

MATT GALLOWAY: And it's almost like they wouldn't be able to have that same way of life or that... that... that same experience that you've had?

DERRICK POTTLE: We taught our children, both myself and my wife, we taught our children the values of living on the land, how to live on land. They both know what it takes to survive on the land and how to survive on the land. But, you know, my grandchildren, all four of them live in southern Ontario. We bring them back. Unfortunately, we haven't seen them for a year now because of COVID. But we bring them back, and we teach them. We teach the values of of our lifestyle, of their lifestyle, of their parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, you know, go back, you know, several thousand generations. And, you know, this is... this is our homeland.

MATT GALLOWAY: And it's changing right in front of your very eyes.

DERRICK POTTLE: It's changing right before our eyes. And it's very scary and very concerning. And I don't know if it's false expectations, but I'm really hoping that things are going to slow down and things are going to revert to back to what they were. But I've been very blessed and fortunate that I've travelled in all four Inuit regions in Canada, right across the north. I've travelled to Greenland on several occasions, many occasions over the years. And I talk, I connect with the people who live in the communities and all across the north, right across the north it's the same trend as what what we're seeing/

MATT GALLOWAY: But I wish you the best. And I really appreciate speaking with you. It's important to hear what you're seeing firsthand. Derrick, thanks so much.

DERRICK POTTLE: Well, I appreciate that. And, you know, like, you know, to us, it's our life. It's who we are. And we really want to continue on that path of... of what we know and how to utilize and stay connected to the land. So thank you very much, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: Derrick Pottle spoke to us from his home in Rigolet, Labrador. He and his community aren't the only ones seeing these changes in real-time. A team of researchers is working with communities in the north on a project called SmartICE. Rex Holwell is the northern production lead with Smart Ice in Nain, Labrador. Rex, good morning to you.

REX HOLWELL: Hey, good morning.

MATT GALLOWAY: Does what Derrik is describing sounds familiar in terms of what you've seen with the ice this year?

REX HOLWELL: Very much so. I mean, Rigolet is only, you know, 300 kilometres, less than that, away from where I am in Nain. And this year, it's actually colder now than what it was in January and February. So, you know, we did have a cold snap where the sea ice did freeze for a bit. But then, you know, again, in January, it was it was the temperature was normally around minus 10. So whatever sea ice we did have, it was very thin. It wasn't really thick sea ice. So I go out and do these smart comedy runs. And when I was calibrating my equipment, you know, I manually drilled through it sea ice and what should be, you know, three feet of ice, hard ice. You know, it was a foot-and-a-half. And it was it was really soft, not really soft, but it was soft saltwater ice.

MATT GALLOWAY: Tell me more about the work that you're doing. How do you go about mapping and measuring the ice?

REX HOLWELL: So with Smart Ice, we... we have two sensors that measure ice thickness. One is a stationary we call it a SmartBOUY. Essentially, it's a nine foot long thermometer that we stick in ice. It'll freeze in the ice. And then on a daily basis, it'll send... it'll send the... the information and it'll be red. And then we'll display it on a website. It'll tell us every day how thick ice is, you know, how how thick the snow is. And it'll tell us the sea water temperature and it'll tell us the air temperature. But it measures the sea ice thickness, which is what we really want. And the other one that we have is called the SmartQAMUTIK. And it's a mobile sensor that, you know, I tie onto a quamutik that tows behind my snowmobile. And as I'm travelling on the sea ice, it'll tell me in real-time how thick the ice is on a like iPad on the handlebars of the snowmobile. And when I get back to my home base, it'll upload my... my whole run up to the platform that we use to get our information out.

MATT GALLOWAY: Andare you finding that the ice is getting thinner?

REX HOLWELL: Yeah. Well, I mean, I've only been doing this for the last two years in Nain, but going through last year's runs, compared to this year runs. And, you know, I've I've done the same.... I've done the run that I did last year, I did the same as I did last week. And the runs that I've been doing, you know, I can consistently see the difference between this year and last year. It's almost perfectly a foot difference.

MATT GALLOWAY: To you, is this the visual effects of climate change? Like are you seeing, you know, the... the effect of climate change right in front of your very eyes when you're looking at that ice?

REX HOLWELL: Yeah, well, I mean, looking at the data, I mean, it tells me, you know, the hard cold data is telling me the sea ice is thinner. But I mean, much like Derrick said, last year was an anomaly where... where we had sea ice come in, but then the wind came and blew it all away. And then it wasn't cold enough for the longest time. So the ice didn't set properly. And this year, this year was even worse in that sense that, you know, beginning January and February was you know, it was minus-10. I was going around all winter, if you can call it winter, with a spring jacket. And like I mentioned, it's colder now than it was in all of January and February.

MATT GALLOWAY: Derrck talked a little bit about this. But just briefly, I mean, what support do you think people in the community need if they're cut off, for example, from their usual travel routes and they can't get to where they need to go because the ice isn't there or isn't thick enough to be safely out?

REX HOLWELL: Well, a lot of people just won't go out to take that chance. You know, Derrick said people go through the ice. And people here have gone through the ice as well. So a lot of the people won't take the chances of travelling on the sea ice. So they won't be able to go off to their traditional fishing grounds to get fish or partridges that would help offset the high cost of living in Nain or, you know, here in Labrador. A lot of the people here go get wood to help heat their house. And if they don't feel it's safe enough, you know, they won't get the wood to help, again, offset the high cost of living to heat their house here in Nain.

MATT GALLOWAY: So what needs to be done to ensure that they can make ends meet?

REX HOLWELL: You know, with climate change happening the way it is, unfortunately, the trend that I'm seeing even in my lifetime, you know, it's not going to improve, it's just going to get progressively worse. So I... I honestly, for climate change, I unless everybody stops burning, you know, diesel fuel and fuel and, you know, it's not going to stop. But I mean, really, the only thing that I can think that we can really do is much like how SmartICE responded, we... we use new technologies to help keep people travelling on the ice if they're able to.

MATT GALLOWAY: So allow them to in some ways adapt to those changing conditions?

REX HOLWELL: Yeah, and that's the whole part of why SmartIce was founded, you know? Back in 2009, 2010, you know, we had in those two years, you know, we had rain in Nain in January, and you know? [scoffs] That led to the founding of SmartIce through the two technologies that we have now. But I mean, you know, we're doing what we can now. Maybe there's a new type of technology that can be utilized to help keep people safe. But until then, you know, people just have to exercise caution when they're travelling on the sea ice.

MATT GALLOWAY: We just have a few seconds left. What would you say to people who are around the country listening to this about what's happening right now and how urgent the situation is?

REX HOLWELL: Well, here in Labrador, we are at the forefront of climate change. You know, we're like... Derrick when he said himself, when he was a young person, he was on the sea ice in November, and so was I. But now, like, we... people here in Nain haven't been able to travel on the seaice in late January. So it's getting later and later in the year. So I just urge people who do travel on the sea ice, you know, exercise caution. You know, take... take the steps to prepare yourself. Make sure you know the sea ice. Make sure you are aware of, you know, any holes or anything that, you know, people... people just have to take their time and be prepared to look for the worst if they do go through the ice.

MATT GALLOWAY: Rex, It's good to speak with you about the work that you're doing. Thank you very much.

REX HOLWELL: Yes. Thank you, too.

MATT GALLOWAY: Rex Holwell is the northern production lead with SmartICE. He was in Nain Labrador. That's "The Current" for today. Coming up next on CBC Radio One, it's "q". Want to give you a heads up about what you'll hear tomorrow on this program, a special documentary by our producer, Samira Mohyeddin. More than a year has gone by since the downing of Flight 752, which killed dozens of Canadians. We'll meet a group of fathers who lost wives and children on that flight. They've bonded together and they're fighting for answers. "The Fathers of Flight 752". That's coming up tomorrow on "The Current". I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. Take care. And we will talk to you tomorrow.

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March 17, 2021 Episode Transcript

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