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The AIH Transcript for March 16, 2021

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Where there's a will, there's a Wi-Fi. Rogers and Shaw say if they're allowed to merge, they'll spend a billion on broadband for rural and Indigenous communities. But promises like that make our guest feel a real disconnect.

CH: Intensive care. As we continue our series marking 10 years of war in Syria, a surgeon tells us how he and his colleagues were treated as criminals for treating their patients.

CO: Spotlight at the end of the tunnel. London is preparing to reopen live theatre after a year of lockdowns. So we'll check in with an actor who is starring role was cut short by the pandemic.

CH: First impressions. Deb Haaland gives an emotional farewell speech from the floor of the House after becoming the first indigenous cabinet secretary in US history.

CO: A new chapter for old verses. Archaeologists find dozens of new pieces of the Dead Sea Scrolls, which just happened to be lying around in the hard-to-access cave in a desert canyon.

CH: And curd your enthusiasm. New research shows that when the French found themselves confined and uncertain, they forged a way forward out of fromage and sent cheese sales soaring. As It Happens. The Tuesday Edition. Radio that understands if they were a little brie occupied.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Rogers/Shaw Deal

Rogers/Shaw Deal

Guest: Bruce Buffalo

CH: Shaw and Rogers have an offer for the federal government, they've proposed a merger. And if the two telecom giants are allowed to merge, they're promising to create a billion dollar fund to extend broadband to rural and Indigenous communities. Some of that money is supposed to go to Indigenous-owned Internet service providers. That sounds like good news for Bruce Buffalo. Mr. Buffalo is the chief technical officer of the Mamawapowin Technology Society, a growing ISP that began by providing connectivity for Samson Cree Nation in and around Maskwacis, Alberta, which is between Edmonton and Calgary. We reached Bruce Buffalo in Maskwacis.

CO: Bruce, if he had to put it in one word, how would you react to this Shaw and Roger's promise that they're going to expand wi-fi in Indigenous communities?

BRUCE BUFFALO: Dubious at best.

CO: Why is that?

BB: From experience, we have talked to the big three or five, and they're not really interested in helping or Indigenous partnerships or providing services other than paid services to reserves. Basically, the issue is lack of access. And when you have one of the big ISPs saying that they're going to provide services on reserve -- currently, the reserve, the Rogers phones really don't work out here. So they'd have to build up a bunch of infrastructure outside looking in. As it is today, there's no infrastructure inside reserves that our cell towers that give good signal. So building out the Rogers cellular network to the reserve isn't really going to do much for a lot of people who can't afford it.

CO: Okay. But the commitment Rogers says it will commit to establishing a one billion dollar fund to connect rural, remote and Indigenous communities across western Canada to high speed Internet. The president of Rogers said that this deal is all about 5G, it's about nation building, it's vital to boost production, to put those communities together. This is the intention. What do you say to that?

BB: The intention it's fine for everybody else who uses the 5G network. We don't get 5G on reserve. Best is we get is 3G service in spotty areas and pockets where we can actually use it. You know, 5G in terrain and obstacles like we have doesn't do too well. That's why it's only mainly built for cities. A terrestrial fibre network will beat a 5G network any day -- that terrestrial fibre network beats those 5G nodes. So we have the fibre network that we've built since 2016 and incorporated into the community. But we don't see cooperation from the big three in terms to make that connectivity better or even accessible to people outside of their paid customer base. So they don't talk to us because we don't have anything to offer them, and in return of interest, if they do come into a First Nations community.

CO: It's just not worth it to them, right, you don't bring any money into their empire?

BB: Absolutely. It's all about revenues and services with Rogers as you know it's pay to play. And they're not interested in partnerships with First Nations entities or anything. They just want to provide that infrastructure and continue doing what they're doing as they currently do today.

CO: Making money?

BB: Correct.

CO: You are a kind of DIY Internet provider in your community. You spent years connecting people to the Internet, one home at a time. What compelled you to do that?

BB: I felt the need to provide the quality of life that everybody else had that I grew up with because I didn't grow up on reserve. And then coming back to the reserve, there's really nothing like that. So I felt a guy with my skill set in my interest, I could do that on my own. And so that's what I did. And I absolutely started everything from the ground up. And we're actually an interprovincially registered Internet service provider, we can operate anywhere within Canada now. And we have gotten started on First Nations territories with First Nations people's and interests in mind solely.

CO: But you're only, what, about an hour outside of Edmonton, correct?

BB: Correct. Yes, that's the kicker.

CO: I mean, we know Internet isn't -- I mean, it is also about watching Netflix and Googling recipes, but Internet is essential. This is about jobs and education and everything is now connected to that, right. How much of a disadvantage is any community without the kind of high speed Internet that the cities have?

BB: It's substantial. It's a great divide. Any community that doesn't have that access like available in every city or town doesn't have that quality of life -- and that's evident through how our First Nations communities throughout Canada look. The proof is in the pudding. None of those Nations have infrastructure like any city or town in Canada does. That just speaks to itself.

CO: So whose responsibility is it to see that those communities, your community and others are connected? Because if you're saying the big tech companies, Rogers, even with this merger, even with this commitment of a billion dollars, isn't going to do it -- whose job is it?

BB: You know, that's what we thought. That was the big question. We thought of that long and hard and it came down to anybody with an interest in the community can do what I did to provide services on par with the big three and even make services better than what they offer. It just takes an individual with a will and a passion for the community.

CO: So if you could get Justin Trudeau's ear for a minute to tell him what is going on, what would you say?

BB: I would say a lot of the projects and government funding geared toward First Nations is not even close to enough to actually provide connectivity our communities need and the solutions our communities need. Needs are immediate. Not 5-10 years down the road when the UBF funds actually pays for it to build it out. Like these communities need this Internet today rate, a lot of these communities will be ten hundred times better if they had access to really good communications throughout the community that everybody has access to. That's the key point right there. Saying that the federal government will give so-and-so money towards infrastructure projects that are really unaccessible to a lot of First Nations and lower organisations and not for profits -- all the big funding goes to the big companies that they've already worked with. And then for us that are trying to do what we can with what we have, it makes it a lot harder for us to get any sort of funding or any sort of commitment from the government just because of that fact.

CO: Bruce, I think a lot of people in many parts of Canada are listening and nodding their heads in agreement with what you're saying. And I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

BB: Yeah, absolutely.

CO: Take care.

BB: Thank you.

CH: Bruce Buffalo is the founder and chief technical officer of the Mamawapowin Technology Society. We reached him in Maskwacis, Alberta.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Dead Sea Scrolls

Guest: Haim Cohen

CH: After years of digging, exploring caves and enduring suffocating dust, archaeologists in Israel have discovered crucial pieces of biblical history. Today, the Israeli Antiquities Authority revealed the discovery of dozens of fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the first ones discovered in several decades. Haim Cohen is one of the archaeologists who worked on the excavation project. We reached him in Jerusalem.

CO: Haim what does it mean for you to have been part of this discovery?

HAIM COHEN: It's amazing. I feel I won the lottery. Being part of this amazing project, it's very exciting for me. And I finding this amazing artefacts -- it's like when first holding the piece of fragment of a scroll, although it was written in Greek, it's a piece of history, of Jewish history, in the desert, in the middle of nowhere and I'm holding it and salvaging it and bring it to research. It was so exciting for me to do it, to be a part of it.

CO: These fragments that were discovered, how important is that discovery?

HC: Well, in archaeology, every little thing is important because archaeology is like a puzzle and we never get the full picture. And every piece helps us to understand the full picture. So these fragments, although they're not very big, they tell us a lot about the beliefs of the people. For example, it's written in Greek and it was a Jewish scroll. So it's very interesting that maybe these Jews that lived in that case, they read, talked and understood mainly Greek and not Hebrew.

CO: How did these fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls, how do they compare with others? I mean, what's the significance, first of all, of finding that they are in Greek?

HC: Most of the scrolls found in the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Dead Sea, they are written in Hebrew, in Hebrew letters at least. And to find a biblical scroll and it's a Jewish biblical scroll, it's very interesting because, again, we would think that Jews in Israel, in Judah 2000 years ago in the times of the Second Temple or in the times of the rebellion against the Romans 70 years later, they talked in Hebrew. But probably at least some of them, they spoke mainly in Greek. And it's very interesting, who was this group? We don't really know for now. We have to continue the research. But yes, it can tell a lot about people who lived in this cave, but not only in this cave but the Jews in Judah during that time.

CO: What else did you find in that cave, this recent discovery?

HC: It's not only one cave. During this project, it's ongoing project for three and a half years, we surveyed over 500 caves and we found all kinds of very very amazing finds. One of the most amazing and exciting things that we found in a different cave, not in that specific cave is a basket. When we got the answer exactly how old this basket is, it said that it's 10,500 years old. And it's huge. It can contained between 90 to 100 litres. It was huge. And it's from more than 10,000 years ago. Now when we found it, we were very excited. We were shocked for days. It was amazing to find it. But it's not only exciting, the significance of this find, it's amazing because from that so ancient time not a lot of us things that remain from that time because there was no pottery yet, not a lot of flint objects. And these people who lived back then, they used mainly wooden artefacts, and most of them just dissolved along the years.

CO: It's quite beautiful. This basket has a lid on it and everything. And you say it's huge. Can you imagine, do you know, who were the people who crafted that basket and used it?

HC: Well, we don't know a lot about them. We know that they started to have cities. But this is not the people who made this specific basket. We assume that they were nomads and they probably they buried this basket inside the cave. What they wanted to come back to this cave maybe seasonally or yearly and to hide or put inside this basket, we think food.

CO: The archaeologists have in the past in this excavation found human remains in those caves. One of them known as the Cave of Horror, I think has human skeletons. But you also found human remains. Can you tell us about that?

HC: Yeah. Yeah. Well, during the excavation in the Horror cave, we found the whole skeleton of a young child, a boy or girl, about 8-10 years old. She is now 6,000 years old. Now, the Cave of Horror -- it's the name of the cave, not only because of all the skeletons inside the cave, but also because the path to the cave, it's a terrifying terrifying path, very frightening. Now for a child 8 to 10 years old to go down there, you would have a very, very, very good reason to go down there, and the way we found a child, someone buried her there and we can learn from that, that the people who came there, they wanted to go there, it wasn't a mistake, she didn't run there by mistake. She went there probably with her family or something. And combining all these dots together, we can start to reconstruct maybe this child and her family, they fled also from a war that we know nothing about, because 6,000 years ago we didn't have no writing notebooks, nothing, no historical remains. And this is the only way that we can tell the story of this family, this group, that ran away from something, and half of the group or part of the group died inside the cave while hiding over there.

CO: What else do you expect or hope to find in those caves?

HC: Basically, the desert -- what I learnt in the last three and a half years, that the desert is full of surprises because of the dry climate and everything is well preserved in the desert and especially inside the caves, that there's this full of surprises. And we can only imagine what we can find there, things that you can't find in other places, but inside the desert where it's well preserved.

CO: Well, I hope you have success with finding other things Haim. It's good to talk to you. Thank you.

HC: Thank you very much. Thank you.

CH: Haim Cohen is an archaeologist with the Israeli Antiquities Authority. We reached him in Jerusalem.

[Music: Calm Music]

UK Live Theatres

Guest: Alice Fearn

CH: A year ago, actors in London exited stage left or right and they did not come back for a curtain call. Theatres fell silent and the show could not go on. COVID abruptly scuttled hundreds of productions in the city's West End and beyond. But finally, theatres are taking the first steps toward reopening. The British government has announced that limited capacity live theatre shows can start again. In mid-May, Alice Fearn was only weeks into a starring role in the London production of the Canadian musical Come From Away when COVID struck. We reached her in London.

CO: Alice, what's it like for you to finally be looking forward to theatres in London reopening?

ALICE FEARN: I think the easiest way to describe it is it's a huge relief. I really feel that this light at the tunnel is a real one that I can really get behind.

CO: And will you be going back on stage with Come From Away? Are you going right back into the play you were in before?

AF: So they're doing a strange sort of like -- coming out a lockdown here, they're doing it in stages. And during mid-May, you're allowed to hopefully -- obviously, if everything goes well -- they're saying you can gather again indoors, but at a social distance. So some shows can come back with that in mind. But really, most shows, and I would say about 90 percent of the shows are all waiting for social distancing to go completely, which looks set to be at the minute at the end of June. So we're all fingers firmly crossed that by the end of June, we'll be seeing lots more shows opening.

CO: You were only weeks into, I guess, playing the lead role or a lead role in Come From Away when this shutdown happened. What was that like for you, that moment when you knew you had to shut down?

AF: Yeah, it was pretty hard. We'd been running for about five weeks, so we sort of felt like we just settled into it and quite literally just settled into it. And it was a strange one because we were all heading into work like normal, there was no sort of idea in the back of our minds that we were closing that night. We got into work. We came down to warm up. People were in their pin curls ready to get their wigs on. I had my show face on and we were all told there and then that the show wasn't going up that night. I will say, though, that there is not one person on that stage or from that audience that thought that it would ever last as long as it has.

CO: When you think of many things that during this pandemic, people have figured out how to keep enjoying or doing or connecting with, but there's no replacement for live theatres. I mean, the spectacle, a crowd, an audience gathers and you feel its energy and you feel it from us and we feel it from you. And nothing can replace that, can there?

AF: Nothing. Absolutely nothing. And I have done a variety of little streaming concerts or streamed things that have gone online over the last sort of year, thankfully, that have kept my brain sort of creatively working. But you're right, there is absolutely nothing like it. And that is I think the thing I miss the most is that connection to an audience, the connection to the onstage cast, everyone working there that we're telling a story and we're experiencing it all together. And to see and hear their reaction at the end of that, it will be the thing -- you know, it's always funny, I've always said I like the bows the best in a show. And it's not because I like to hear people applauding me particularly, I like to feel that they've had an experience that they'll never forget, that they have had a moment in two and a half or two hours of their life that they've enjoyed something, they've learnt a new story, they've felt something new. And I love to get their reaction to that. And to not have that for over a year is one of the hardest things for me.

CO: There can't be anything more depressing than a dark theatre. It is not meant to be there. How have you survived this past year?

AF: I've really worked hard in supporting myself, teaching online. But it's been incredibly hard, you know, for a lot of the industry. I had that set up before we even dreamt of something like a lockdown possibly being a thing. And a lot of people didn't have that kind of job on the sidelines. You know, people if they did have a job on the sidelines, I don't know if it was working in a bar, it was working in a call centre, it was a variety of things. But suddenly a lot of those jobs got taken away as well. So not only their theatre job, it was their sideline job. So it's been a very difficult year to see friends and really struggle through it.

CO: And do you have any sense at this point as to what has survived, what you may have lost in this past year in London's theatre scene?

AF: I think there are shows that we have lost, and that's completely true. And we obviously lost Waitress -- that closed and then couldn't come back, couldn't finish its run. There are lots of things that were due to come over that have now suspended and we don't know how long for. There will be a lot of theatres, when things can come back, haven't got anything to go in. And that's a problem in itself. And I think on top of that, there are performers that we have lost because this has gone on so long that a lot of performers have I mean maybe it pushed them into maybe retiring or looking at different avenues. But this was so hard and it looks set to be so hard for so long. There are a lot of performers that will have, and many rightly so, going, "I can't cope with this. I can't feed my family like this. I can't live like this." And I think that's the real tragedy, is that we've lost some really brilliant people out there. That's one of the hardest things, I think, when I really think about it, that we've lost some brilliant performers out there.

CO: For audiences, it's been such a dry period. I can imagine when you finally get a crowd in the theatre watching you on stage, it will have a dynamic that it couldn't have had otherwise. What do you anticipate about that moment?

AF: Yeah, I think you're completely right. I actually compare it to the Roaring Twenties, which is after the First World War -- everyone just sort of was out, we were enjoying life, everyone was very vibrant because the war was over. And I do compare it to that. I think everyone will be so done with being locked in their homes that they will be up for doing anything, getting out of the house, getting to see their friends. And I don't think I can imagine the first night back -- I don't think I can because I think it's beyond anything I have ever experienced. Because not only is it an opening night of the show, I've experienced those, but this is the opening night of an industry. This is the opening night for that audience. This is so many people's journey back to life and enjoying life and enjoying the things that we can in life. And that is bigger than anything I can possibly imagine. I can already tell I'm going to be overwhelmed, because sometimes when I think about it I just immediately sort of well up and think, gosh, I don't know how I'm going to get through a song, how I'm going to even speak without sort of sobbing. But it will be quite a ride, I have to say.

CO: We'll all be sobbing Alice. Thank you so much for speaking with us.

AF: Thank you.

CH: Alice Fearn is an actor. We reached her in London, UK.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Cheese

CH: Sometimes the best you can do is grin and Camembert. Like, say, if a deadly virus sweeps the globe and you find yourself confined for weeks, that turn into months, that turn into a year plus. You can't just focus on what's eating you. You have to focus on what you can eat. You let your mind linger on the certainty that there are Cheddar days ahead, that these bad times will be replaced by Gouda times. You dairy to dream. And if you're in France, you eat even more cheese than usual, like just so much cheese. New data out of France shows cheese sales to individuals rose sharply in 2020 across a wide array of cheeses, sharp and not. Sales of mozzarella rose by over 20 percent. Goat cheeses leaped by 32.2 percent. And everything from Emmental to sheep's milk cheese also saw a healthy bump. So did Raclette and the machines that grilled to a perfect fragrant melting mess, all of which together smothered cheese consumption records in the country. Even before the lockdown's. The French eat more cheese on average than other Europeans, averaging 26.4 kilograms or roughly 58 pounds each every year. They know what they like and what they like is cheese. There's no point in fighting it, especially now. You just have to sit back and let it work its fromagic.

[Music: Accordion Music]

Part 2: 'I'm not a hero anymore,' says doctor who spent years running secret hospitals in Syria

Syria 10 Years Doctor

Guest: Mahmoud Hariri

CH: Even war has rules, and one of them is medical neutrality. It's right there in the Geneva Conventions, the idea that in times of armed conflict, the targeting of medical services is off limits. That rulebook clearly didn't apply in Syria. In fact, in 2012, the Syrian regime adopted a law criminalising medical activities in rebel held areas. And nowhere were doctors and nurses more criminalised than in Aleppo. In November 2012, former As It Happens producer David McDougall captured this devastating moment in the city.

DAVID MCDOUGALL: [SOUNDCLIP: Back at the hospital, the toll this war is taking on civilians is impossible to ignore. And as I was about to learn firsthand, while in the middle of an interview here, there is simply no place to go that is safe. [Loud bomb sound] On the busy street, no one heard the Syrian fighter jet until it was too late. A bomb likely with a delayed fuse designed to bring down a building. It does the job. The hospital is completely destroyed.]

CH: An excerpt from a radio documentary produced by former As It Happens producer David McDougall in Aleppo in 2012. This week, we're marking 10 years since the start of the war in Syria, during the past decade, we've talked with protesters, politicians, refugees and rebel fighters. And we also spoke with a lot of doctors, Abdul Aziz was one of them. In April 2016 after an airstrike levelled an MSF hospital, he told us that amongst the 60 people killed was his friend and colleague, Dr. Muhammad Waseem Maaz -- one of Aleppo's last paediatrician's.

MAHMOUD HARIRI: [SOUNDCLIP: We lost all of our staff day by day. Last week, we lost one of the best cardiologist, the only cardiologist in Hama, Dr. Hasan al-Araj. He was killed also in his ambulance. So what are we waiting for? What is the international community waiting for? We talked about this many times, but nobody listened to us. And waiting for the last doctors be killed inside Syria and say, 'we are sorry, we have to support you.' This is only talk. This is nothing. I'm sorry I'm so exhausted. You don't know what does it mean -- this is one of my best friends. Hasan al-Araj was also one of my best friends. We lost one of the two pioneers, two heroes in their speciality inside Syria. Who will see those babies?! Who will see those patients with cardiac problem after that?! The number of doctors inside Aleppo now going down day by day. It's a crisis already. No need to claim -- it is a crisis already.

CO: Doctor, I totally understand. Well, I can't understand what you're going through...

MAHMOUD HARIRI: Sorry I haven't slept yesterday. I stayed up all night crying for this this man. We lost one of the best men in this world. We lost one of the best heart in this world. Doctor Waseem, he always smiled. We asked him, "Please go out of Syria. Just to take rest." He said, no, he's now 36. He's unmarried. He said, How can I be married? I will be busy for my family. I will not be able to to work for those babies who are crying every day. He doesn't have a baby, but he is crying for the baby in the world, in this city, in his country. And now killed.]

CH: From 2016 that was surgeon, Abdul Aziz in Aleppo. Abdul Aziz is a pseudonym, one of many he used during the war. His real name is Dr. Mahmoud Hariri, and he's now based in Gaziantep, Turkey. That's where we reached him.

CO: Dr. Hariri, when you hear yourself in 2016, what goes through your mind?

MAHMOUD HARIRI: It took me back to my memory. We cannot imagine what would happen for the future. Waseem now is a name of one of the biggest hospitals inside Syria. There is a name of a hospital called Dr. Waseem Maaz hospital. And Hasan al-Araj also is a name of one of the only other hospitals. Everybody remember Hasan. Everybody remembers Waseem. Everybody remembers this generation of those martyrs who sacrificed their lives for the lives of others. And there is now a new generation. Many things changed since five years up till now. There is a school of medicine which started six years ago, and the first generation will be graduating next year. We are training. We are able to build our country. We are able to prove to the whole world that Syrians can do it, can build themselves. They can do the miracles in Syria.

CO: Do you have any support from the government of Syria? I mean, you've been running the medical programs, hospitals underground for the past 10 years in Syria. Are they able to get any support or is this underground as well?

MH: We have support from outside Syria, from NGOs, from so many donors around the world. There is no way to communicate with a tyrant and dictator to have a support. The one who is sending barrel bombs on the hospitals will not support the medical school, will not support the generation. He will try to destroy the generation, not to support the generation. So do not expect that there is any type of support coming from the Assad regime and his allies.

CO: Bashar al-Assad, the lack of support is one thing, but his regime actually has made it illegal to provide health care and medical care to people in what he considered enemy parts of Syria. And this is since 2012. He made it against the law to actually help people when they were injured and needed health care.

MH: If I'm a doctor and being captured in the regime, in the Assad regime area, I will be jailed for maybe life or be killed because I helped for a wound and because I treat such patients. This is my crime. Even the accountant in the hospital, one of our colleagues, he was accountant in the hospital and he's been jailed since 2014 to 2018 because he is an accountant in a hospital.

CO: People you worked with, murdered, targeted for assassination. They were tortured to death. They disappeared. And you were under threat all the time as well. What loss does that represent to you?

MH: Of course. Of course. We lost a lot of doctors, a lot of our friends -- some of the good hearts, those people who stayed in spite of all of these difficulties. Hasan al-Araj, for example, he died in his hospital, his own hospital. He was the owner of the hospital. He was not only a doctor working, he sacrificed his money and his life, not only the life. So many doctors have been killed. Of course, we lost a large number of doctors. Some of them fled out of the country and some of them killed in the country. The remaining doctors, it's not that much, of course, but hope is still and getting much better for those new generation of doctors who will work to rebuild the health system inside our country. And they are able to do it.

CO: When we spoke with you last, we called you Abdul Aziz, which was a pseudonym. You couldn't use your real name. You were trying to help others, medical students to do surgeries by giving them instructions on the phone. It was extraordinary how difficult it was to just stay alive and to help others to stay alive. How did you manage to and how difficult was it for you to survive it?

MH: Let me say it maybe by chance, I don't know, it was difficult. Yes, we were calling through Skype. We used to call my friends and students trying to tell them how to do some type of surgery. By the way, we trained inside Syria to be, let me say, multitasks surgeons, so doctors are able to do different types of surgery. I'm a general surgeon. I'm doing general vascular, obstetrics, gynaecology, many types of surgery. For that reason, we hope that we are able to help all of the world to train the new generation, the new doctors. And at that time, we used to guide those doctors how to deal with injured patients who are coming to their facility in order to try to survive them. But at the same time, of course, there is some barrel bombs at that time that target our hospitals. How I survived? I don't know. But thank God that I'm still alive and hope I will be back again to my country and work again and train the new generation for how to make much better surgeons for the future.

CO: You were trying to help others to do surgeries over the phone, over Skype. How can you save the life of somebody by telling somebody else how to do it? I mean, they didn't even have equipment. They didn't have basic medicine to do that. How did you keep people alive in that kind of a system?

MH: To start with, we trained those doctors to do some of the basics. The basics in surgery and in medicine can save dozens of life. So this is the way that we tried. And even the equipment we prepare a bag which contained equipment for intubation. It contained a suture, basic sutures. So those doctors, after having these bag, they will be able to do life-saving issues. At least they can do their best to survive those patient and then they will be transferred somewhere else to be treated properly.

CO: But those students that you worked with, that you are helping to do those surgeries by phone, they didn't survive some of them, is that right?

MH: Yeah. Three murdered. Three of those burned alive, unfortunately. And we found their bodies in the street in Aleppo. And I still remember crying for them, of course. And the other three fortunately survived. One of them now in US and the other two now in Turkey. They graduate from medical school here in Turkey. They will start their postgrad training, one of them in surgery and the other internal medicine.

CO: It wasn't just that they the regime attacked and killed the doctors and the medical workers -- they attacked the hospitals. They were just documented hundreds of attacks on hospitals. Whatever you did to try and hide, going underground, building bunkers, whatever. They sought you out to destroy, not just by accident in the middle of war, but to actually target and destroy health care system, hospitals, any place where you might be working. How did people work in that situation? How did you manage, given that they were actually looking for the places where the wounded were being treated?

MH: Yeah, by the way, one day there is one of the hospitals which is called, by the way, Hasan al-Araj Hospital, it was a cave and it was in a mountain. Last week, the Russian forces and Russian allies, they explored this hospital after capturing this area. Doctors still working in Syria in spite of all of this, because they believe that this is their country and they have to stay for the sake of the humanity of those innocent people still living inside the country.

CO: You're listening to As It Happens. I'm speaking with Dr. Mahmoud Hariri. He is a surgeon from Syria who spent much of the past decade working in opposition-held Aleppo and Idlib. And this week marks the 10 year anniversary since the war in Syria began. I want to play a clip of two of your colleagues, of your fellow doctors, Dr. Hamza Hassan and Abdullahi Tinari. And here's what they had to say to us.

HAMZA HASSAN: [SOUNDCLIP: I want to say to the International Committee that history is repeated. Several massacre is repeated.

CO: Srebrenica in Bosnia.

HAMZA HASSAN: Yes. So I ask the International Committee to save humanity.

ABDULLAHI TINARI: Seven years the regime is killing people and nothing was done from any country, from the Security Council to stop this. The regime used the chemical weapons. I treated patients, victims of chemical weapons, and nothing was done to stop them.]

CO: Some of your colleagues talking about the failure, not just that the regime was killing doctors and destroying hospitals, but that Western governments did so little to stop it. Were you prepared for that, that there would be nobody outside who had come to help?

MH: Honestly, when we started, we did not expect that this will happen. We expect that the international community will interfere and will help and come and help Syrians by any means. But the Syrians now couldn't expect any help from any other countries, from any country. They will believe that you must build yourself by yourself. Nobody will help you. At the beginning of the revolution, they expect that within a couple of months everything will be fine, we will get rid of Assad by the help of American and European countries. So now we do believe that nobody will help Syrians. And as my colleague mentioned about Srebrenica -- the Bosnian people [inaudible] themselves. Look at Sarajevo at that day, they started medical school in the same way during the war. So we have to do like them and we have to learn the lesson from them.

CO: I want to ask you about the United Nations because Russia was dropping many of those bombs on those hospitals, much of what we were talking about was actually done with the help of Russian forces. Russia sits on the Security Council of the United Nations. Did the United Nations actually make, to some extent, did it make things worse?

MH: I'm sorry to say that is one of the term that must be cancelled from the United Nations, and I know it's crazy to say, the word is "veto" if I have the right of veto so I can do whatever I'd like to do.

CO: Just so people understand why you're talking about veto. Veto is what each member of the Security Council has. Russia has a veto. So at crucial times when something might have happened and the United Nations might have acted, Russia could stop that from happening. Is that what you're referring to?

MH: Exactly. If any of the countries would like to say no against the willing of hundred of countries, it can say veto. How many times Russian and Chinese use the veto for the sake of Bashar al-Assad and why?!

CO: Dr. Hariri, you talked a lot about the children. And we that they physically suffered. What are the mental and psychological wounds to children of Syria now suffer from?

MH: How many person now living in a camp? We have at least one million and half. One million and half have no wall to lean on during the winter, there is rain, and in summer it's hot weather. And during this time there is no school. So imagine what will happen for this new generation.

CO: You see it in their faces, don't you? The kids, some of the children look like old men and women. Their faces tell so much, don't they, when you see them?

MH: Sure, sure. Exactly. Their faces tell us a lot.

CO: And that's the last generation you believe?

MH: To some extent, yes. And I hope that you are not going to lose this generation. Otherwise it will be maybe a disaster for the future. How we can deal with uneducated, kids who are now living anywhere, expect anything from those, expect a little kid that who saw his father is killed, who saw his mother is killed, who saw his arm for, let me say, amputated or whatever happened -- so how would you can expect from the mental health for those kids?! How they are imagining their future? How they are dreaming their future? They don't have any thinking about this future. So what do you expect that they will do?

CO: You yourself have children, one of them born in the middle of this war. What effect have these 10 years, what effect has it had on your own life, Dr. Hariri?

MH: It affect my life from different aspects. I have my children now living in freedom, and many times when I was telling my children how we are living in Syria, they used to say, "Oh daddy, how we are living there? How did you live in such a situation? How do you accept this for your life?" But in the same time, they felt that this is the right decision that we made -- me and their mother -- that we were joining this revolution. Of course, there is a negative impact that I'm still dreaming to see my father and my mother, I'm unable to see them. They are living in the other side. But this is a price, we have to pay the price. It's the price of the freedom.

CO: I can imagine that when you close your eyes, you see so many images, so many things. The amount of life you have lived in these past 10 years is beyond most people. Is there a particular image, is there a particular moment that stays with you as a kind of signature moment of these past 10 years?

MH: One of the important moments, when I survived one of the kids. He had an injury to his shoulder and he was about to die. And when he got out of the hospital, discharged from the hospital, he tried to hug me and crying and said, "Thank you, doctor, I love you." And the other unforgotten day when the little boy also who was 10 years old [inaudible] whose shoulder amputated and he died in my hand. This is two...I'm sorry. This is one of the two difficult situations I lived in my life. Kids, children, the most type of people who affected me.

CO: During all those dark years, were there any possible bright moments for you, any moments that gave you hope?

MH: When you have a patient who survived, who discharged home, and you're feeling that you did something good for those innocent people, this is the beauty of our life. And I do believe even now I'm feeling that I'm living now on the mercy and the love of these days. It was the ever best days in my life.

CO: Why would you say that?

MH: Because I did many things for the sake of those people innocent and save hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of lives. I do believe that as a doctor, I did my best for my people, for the sake of the humanity, not for the sake of the money.

CH: Dr. Hariri, it is good to speak with you again. And you are an inspiration. I think you're a hero. And I really really admire speaking with you. Thank you.

MH: Thank you so much. I'm not a hero. The heroes who are still now struggling. I'm not a hero anymore. But I'm just one of those team who are looking for the future, for the life and still working up till now.

CO: Dr. Hariri thank you.

MH: Thank you so much for your time.

CH: Dr. Mahmoud Hariri is a surgeon who spent much of the past decade working at hospitals and clinics in opposition controlled Syria. He now lives in Gaziantep, Turkey. You can learn more about Dr. Hariri on our website: cbc.ca/aih. And tomorrow will continue our special coverage of the war in Syria by focussing on the Syrians who fled. We'll speak with Reham Abazid, who arrived in St. John, New Brunswick, as a refugee and has become a pillar of the community.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Sound Of The Day: Yo-Yo Ma

CH: Imagine how you'll feel after you're fully vaccinated against COVID-19. You're at the clinic, you've got that second dose in your arm, you're just waiting for 15 minutes till the staff say you're okay and you can be on your way. What could feel better than that? Well, how about if Yo-Yo Ma busted out his cello and played for you? That's what happened a few days ago at a vaccination site in Massachusetts. The world renowned musician was there getting his own second dose and he put on an impromptu concert for everyone there. Here's what it sounded like. [MUSIC: Yo-Yo Ma playing Franz Schubert's "Ave Maria"] Our Sound of the Day, Yo-Yo Ma playing Franz Schubert's "Ave Maria" at a vaccine clinic in Massachusetts after receiving his second dose of the COVID vaccine.

[Music: Calm Music]

Part 3: Anti-Asian Racism: Chef

Anti-Asian Racism: Chef

Guest: Mike Nguyen

CH: Before Mike Nguyen went on CNN last week to call out his governor, he felt some hesitation. He feared there might be backlash to what he had to say. But the Asian-American restaurant owner in San Antonio did the interview anyway and called Texas Governor Greg Abbott's decision to drop his state's mask mandate selfish and cowardly. And then came the backlash. This weekend, Mr. Nguyen learnt that someone had spray painted his ramen restaurant with racist graffiti. Mike Nguyen is the owner of Noodle Tree in San Antonio, Texas.

CO: Mike, how did you first learn that your restaurant had been vandalised?

MIKE NGUYEN: I got a text message at 10 a.m. on Sunday from my maintenance team. They sent me pictures saying that the restaurant had been vandalised. So then I went over. And when I initially saw the photos,. I was just like, okay, I've got to head over there. It didn't really sink in. And then when I actually saw it in person, I mean, that's when it kind of hit me that this is real. You know, the anger, the hurt, the outrage, just kind of all -- that's all the emotions that came all to me all at once. And I remember being so angry. And I just had to kind of clear my head a little bit and pacing back and forth until so I could just finally just have some common sense and just kind of think through, like, how are we going to handle this?

CO: Can you give us a sense of what they were writing on your store?

MN: So what they wrote was "No mask." Then on a table that we had outside, they wrote "Go back to China." On our windows they wrote, "Kung-Flu. Ramen Noodle Flu." And the one that upset me the most was, "I hope you die." You're going to take it to that level where you wish death or harm upon me just because you don't agree with my opinions or my views. That was just taking it way too far.

CO: When you talk about airing your opinions, tell us what you think this is linked to.

MN: I think it's linked to my criticism of our governor in Texas and the fact that I thought it was way too soon to lift our mask mandate. You know, I'm all for Texas opening up. You know, we've done our due diligence to kind of lower the levels down to a low point and have our hospital rates down. I thought it was safe enough to do about at least 75 percent. A 100 was -- I'm okay with it, not too comfortable, but I'll be okay with it. But if you take away the mask, there goes our protection. And you're just letting [inaudible] run rampant. My thing was how does dropping a mass mandate help the economy? I mean, the whole thing of reopening Texas to help the economy, help people get jobs. And if you take away the mask, how does that personally help my business? How does that personally helped the Texas economy? I don't see how it does.

CO: Just remind people here that the governor of Texas, Greg Abbott, announced that the state was 100 percent open and he rolled back that mask mandate earlier this month. And you did an interview on CNN. What kind of response did you get about that?

MN: You know, like 80 percent support and then the negativity came in. I got flooded with one star reviews on Google, on Yelp. I got death threats. I got cyber bullying, hate comments online. You know, obviously the vandalism. It just kind of started to escalate. Did I expect the death threats, the name calling, the one star reviews? Yeah. Did I expect to lead up to where it led up? No. The vandalism, no. So at this point, my concern is how far is it going to escalate? I mean, the next thing it's going to be physical harm myself or even death. And I'm hoping it doesn't reached to that point. But you know what point is somebody going to step in? Now the safety of my staff, I have to think about. So there's a lot of things that go on now that I'm responsible for that I have to kind of think about when we open up for business again.

CO: You've been running this restaurant, The Noodle Tree. And everywhere restaurants are really struggling. What's it been like for you trying to keep your business going during the pandemic?

MN: I mean, we've dropped sales by about 70 percent. And this past weekend, obviously, with all the support we were very busy, but it's still not the same. You know, we have to kind of spend more money on PPE and stuff. And we have to rethink how we do things.

CO: Lots of people in the industry are wanting their customers to wear masks. But it's particularly important for you, isn't it?

MN: Absolutely. I'm compromised. What people don't understand is that if they love the restaurant, they love the food, and they don't wear a mask, and I get sick and something happens to me, there's no restaurant. We've tried to compromise, come to a compromise where all we ask is you wear a mask inside the building. Again, that's for respect for my health, respect for my staff, respect for the other guests around you. And if you don't want to wear a mask, that's fine. You can sit outside or you can order to go.

CO: What's made you immunocompromised?

MN: I have it's Diffuse Large B-Cell Lymphoma. It pretty much is a cancer that takes my [inaudible] and my immune system.

CO: And you've let people know that that's why you need to have this mask mandate, right?

MN: Correct.

CO: Does that have an effect on any of these people that they understand why it's necessary, not just for you but for people -- your other customers -- who might also be immune compromised?

MN: For the most part, people do respect it. But there are some that say, 'Well if you're so sick, why don't you just stay home?' What they don't realise is when I'm not at work, I am at home. If I don't work or my business shuts down then how am I going to pay for my treatments? So every day I go into work, I'm risking my life to try to save my life. You know, it's one of those give or take. So I have to take those extra measures to make sure that I'm safe. I have a little area that I stay in that I am protected. You know, luckily I'm right next to that, so it does suck up a lot anything that comes, air particles that come, it sucks it in the hood vent. It gives me another added protection that's created by design, so it's just one of the things -- I understand most people don't take it seriously, but I've had family members pass away from COVID. I myself am compromised, so I have to take this seriously. And if I didn't have all this, I would still respect someone else's, you know what they're going through.

CO: The graffiti, as you described it, is not just about the anti-maskers, it's also racism, isn't it?

MN: Definitely a hundred percent. You know, we've seen a lot of hate crimes on Asian-Americans here and elder Asian-Americans getting attacked some resulting them going to a hospital or even death. For whatever reason, we had the narrative where our former leaders think it was okay to call it the Chinese Virus or the Kung-Flu, not knowing that you're placing blame on a race and that people going to be angered by it. Everybody's frustrated about losing certain things. And we all just want to get back to normal. But when they did all, they kind of stirred the pot a little bit. And then that's why we saw all these attacks on Asian-Americans.

CO: Mike, I really appreciate speaking with you today. Thank you. Take care.

MN: Thank you.

CH: Mike Nguyen is the owner of the restaurant Noodle Tree in San Antonio, Texas.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Yaphet Kotto

CH: Yaphet Kotto was proud to be a trailblazer in the world of film. He played the first Black villain in a James Bond flick, Dr. Kananga, in Live and Let Die. He also figured he was the first Black man to kill a White man on screen in the 1970 film The Liberation of L.B. Jones. And he broke down racial barriers in science fiction movies by playing Parker in Alien. Yaphet Kotto died yesterday. He was 81. In 2003, Mr. Kotto spoke about the impact of his role in Ridley Scott's space horror movie at a special screening of Alien at the Toronto International Film Festival. Here's part of what he had to say.

YAPHET KOTTO: It's very moving for me. This movie means so much to me. I cannot tell you. Into the world, it's a classic. A short story -- during the march on Washington, I stood there at the steps watching Dr. King talk about his dream and wondered whether or not I would ever see that dream so far from my goal. And then about eight years ago, I had some time off from Homicide and went to D.C. with my daughter, who had played on that ship -- my oldest daughter would run around in that ship. And we went to the spot where I was standing and I was telling her how years before I had stood there listening to Dr. King's speech. And a bus pulled up with a bunch of children from Japan. And they got out of the bus and ran towards me. And I couldn't understand what they were speaking because they were speaking their language. But there was one thing that blew me away, the fact that they all were saying one word "Alien." [Crowd laughs] And at that moment, it was so spooky because I'd realised that the dream had come true. I was now known all throughout the world. The movie opened the door for women. Never before in the history of movies have we seen a heroic woman do what Sigourney did. [Crowd applauds] And all other movies after that portrayed women in those heroic roles. And it was the first time an African-American had been seen in a role like that. [Crowd applauds] And so today we see women and African-Americans in those roles because of this man right here. Thank you Ridley. God bless you.

CH: Yaphet Kotto, who starred in many films including Alien, speaking in 2003 at the Toronto International Film Festival. Mr. Kotto has died at the age of 81.

[Music: Calm Music]

Deb Haaland

CH: The United States has its first Indigenous cabinet secretary. Yesterday, the Senate voted 51 to 40 to confirm Deb Haaland as the Secretary of the Interior. And as far as Indigenous Americans are concerned, it's a long overdue appointment. The department oversees huge swaths of public land and federal relations with tribes across the country. Deb Haaland first entered Congress in a historic election in 2018 and was re-elected last year. Today, she gave an emotional farewell speech on the floor and spoke about her home state.

DEB HAALAND: I love New Mexico. Not only is it my home where I raised my child, went to college, started a small business and started organising. It's my ancestral homeland. As a 35th generation New Mexican, and not unlike the other families with roots in our state, I have a deep connection to that land, air, and water that sustains our communities. My ancestors settled there because they were drawn to the once mighty Rio Grande and the sacred places that dot the sandstone mesas and Granite Mountains. That's why I made the most of my time in Congress. I spent every opportunity meeting with families, listening to small business owners, learning about our tech industry, connecting with brave service members and veterans, and working to deliver for the people. When I was a little girl, none of this crossed my mind as a possibility for me. I wasn't one of the students picked out to apply to college. In fact, I didn't apply to college until I was 28. I was constantly struggling to make ends meet and raised my child as a single mom. Growing up, Native women rarely held federal leadership positions. And now little girls everywhere will know that they can run for Congress and win and that this country holds promise for everyone. In fact, it's the unique experiences and struggles that make good leaders and why I became an organiser in the first place. I believe that it's the fact that I relied on food stamps to feed my family that makes me qualified to advocate for families like mine. It's the fact that I overcame addiction that makes me qualified to help people who are in their own struggles. It's the fact that I know what it's like to be Indigenous that makes me qualified to advocate for our country to meet its trust responsibilities.

CH: That was Deb Haaland speaking in Washington today following her Senate confirmation as interior secretary.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Bathurst, NB Deer Visiting

Guest: Tyler Ells

CH: The city of Bathurst in northern New Brunswick has plenty of natural beauty, but lately that natural beauty has been a little overwhelming. And just walking around like it owns the place. A mob of unexpected visitors has been roaming around the city centre. Usually this behaviour is unheard of or unherded of. And last week, Tyler Ells captured video of one of their visits. We reached Mr. Ells in Bathurst.

CO: Tyler, to tell us about these unexpected visitors to Bathurst.

TYLER ELLS: Yeah. So as I was driving home from work and visiting the girlfriend's mother one night. And it was actually my girlfriend, she looked over as we were driving by and she said, "Oh my God, I've seen 10,000 deers," she says. And I was like, What do you mean 10,000 deers. My next turn was the turn I need to take to go home anyway. So I took that turn as normal and I noticed the pack come through the parking lot by UNI, the bank that we have hear in Bathurst. And so anyways, like anyone would, we pulled off to the parking lot in the bank and we just parked there and sat down and watched and enjoyed what we were seeing. And we could watch them walk up and down the parking lot and the UNI bank. Then they kind of circled around us, went on the street and came back around.

CO: So your girlfriend said there were 10,000 -- how many were there actually?

TE: Actually, there ended up being that I think it was 19 or 20 of them. She had just been a little bit surprised when she first seen them, and that was her immediate reaction. So, of course, I had to go take a look for myself now.

CO: So they were basically in the streets of Bathurst, in the parking lot in the city.

TE: Yeah. So when she first seen them, they were just in the side street, kind of off the main road, and she had seen them kind of jumping over a snowbank there. So as we turned in the next side streets, which was the street that the bank was on -- and by the time that we are going down that side road, they had all been gathering up in the parking lot of the bank. And by the end of it, they had been ending up on the main road like St. Peter's, where the mall is on -- it is probably one of the busiest spots of the city. There was like four babies that had been separated from the rest of the pack and they had crossed the street.

CO: Were you were you worried? Were you and your girlfriend worried about them?

TE: Yeah, I think you can even hear it on one of the videos. She was a little bit concerned. She was afraid that the babies were going to get hit. And she was sad that they got separated from the pack. So at first, we didn't really know exactly where the babies had gone. We just knew they kind of went off to the next street. So we tried to kind of follow the pack a little bit. We didn't want to get too close or kind of give them any direction. We didn't know exactly how to react, but we just kind of slowly drove up and tried to follow the big pack. We didn't really see where they ended up. So then we just kind of circled back around and we were just going to go home at that point. But then we found the four babies. And at that point they had just been crossing the main street, which is a very busy road anyway. So we kind of had to go in that street again anyway to go home. And we noticed one of car almost hit one of the deer. He had to do kind of a swerved to avoid it. So we were a little bit worried that someone was going to get hurt and we didn't want something to happen. So we were almost trying to be there to warn people. And then finally, the four of them, they got across the street and went to the mall parking lot. The mall at that point was closed. So then there was hardly any cars. And there's also woods kind of connected fairly close to the mall. So at that point, we knew they were okay. We sat down in the parking lot and enjoyed them a little bit and had gone back home.

CO: Have you ever seen that many deer roaming around the city before?

TE: No, definitely not around the city. I heard of a situation I think two weeks prior to us seeing the pack. There was a picture of four of them near the mall just near the snow bank of the mall, though, which is like, again, fairly close to the woods. So it was a nice sight, but still kind of normal. It was definitely not in a very busy part of the streets in the city or on the street. So that was definitely the first time I had seen them on the road.

CO: Right. What are the theories in town as to why there are so many deer sightings in Bathurst?

TE: I've seen a lot of comments of people talking that they were maybe looking for food or there's been clearings happening. And I don't know. There was lots and lots of, I guess, opinions. But I'm not really sure because I couldn't say for sure. Some people were saying they had a great sale at Home Hardware, so that could have been it. But, yeah, I don't know, hopefully they're all right and it wasn't that they were looking for food because there was a lot of people saying, you know, it's sad to see, and we thought of that too. I'm not really sure what the real issue was, though.

CO: Do you think people in town are feeding them?

TE: Not that I know of. I heard of one of the sightings being around McDonalds. So if people were feeding them maybe around there. But I've never seen it myself. And I've seen a lot of people commenting on my posts and I've seen a lot of people saying like not to feed them. I've never seen anyone say that they ever have.

CO: We had some stories last year, mostly in the spring, early in the pandemic, when around the world towns and cities were completely shut, people were all indoors, and there were all these animals that kind of took over. There's a town in Wales that all these mountain goats came down and started to live in town and munch on the hedges and everything. So do you think that that's part of it, is that there is maybe less traffic, it's not as dangerous for them to come into town?

TE: Yes, it's certainly possible. I guess they probably felt like they owned the place when everyone was on lockdown. If they're having troubles finding feed in the woods, maybe they want to come take a look around town. Other people were saying they were on a shopping spree. There's tons of opinions.

CO: But you're still worried about the busy intersections in town? Are people on the lookout in case they hit a deer at night?

TE: Yeah, that's kind of why I posted it in the first place. I kind of made a subtle joke saying, oh they were out for nightly stroll. But that was kind of why I posted in the first place, just kind of bring attention that there are a lot of the deers kind of roaming about. And we didn't want to, not only anyone to get in an accident or hurt, but we didn't want them to get hurt. So we just kind of want to bring light to the situation. I thought maybe my close family and friends around town would see and that's about it. But then a lot of people seemed very interested and it quickly started getting a lot of stares. So a lot of people are getting the word out there now.

CO: Tyler it's good to talk to you. Thanks.

TE: Very good talking to you too. Nice to meet you.

CO: Thanks. Nice to meet you too. Bye bye.

TE: All right. Bye now.

CH: Tyler Ells captured video of a group of deer outside the Home Hardware in Bathurst, New Brunswick. And despite their occasional invasions of Bathurst, the province's Department of Natural Resources told the CBC that there has not been a surge in the deer population in the region.

[Music: Calm Music]

Sally Grossman

CH: Bob Dylan holds a cat, behind him a woman in a striking red ensemble reclines holding a cigarette and all three stare into the camera. That's the cover image on Bringing It All Back Home, released in 1965. An album many argue is the greatest album of all time. And an album lots of people argued about at the time since it's the first one where he went electric. The cover was nearly as groundbreaking as the album itself. As they always do, devotees searched for hidden meaning. And there were plenty of theories about the reclining woman. Did she represent Dylan's feminine side? Was she Dylan himself in drag? She was not. She was Sally Grossman, who was married to Dylan's manager, Albert Grossman, at the time. The cover was shot in the couple's home. According to Daniel Kramer, the photographer, Bob wanted Sally to be in the photo because, well, look at her. Sally Grossman died on Thursday. She was 81 years old. As a young woman, Ms. Grossman dropped out of college to wait tables in Greenwich Village because, as she put it, I figured that what was happening on the street was a lot more interesting than studying 17th century English literature. And she eventually became more immersed in the scene than she could have imagined -- living in Woodstock, hanging with artists, running a recording studio with her husband, and later, a theatre.

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March 16, 2021 Episode Transcript

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