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The Current Transcript for March 10, 2021

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

LAURA TASSIUK: Every day is different. We have sale items, announcements, birthday greetings and want to buy. And we've added some video games, call-In shows of different topics.

MATT GALLOWAY Amber, tell me a little bit about the games, the Facebook games. I was looking at the the Facebook page, and there's all sorts of different kind of games there. What are some of the games that people can play through the radio?

AMBER KADJUK: Some of them are just posted like the sloppy makeup one we were just looking for. I think that's when 10 or more cases were announced in one day. So we figured the community needs a nice laugh. So we were looking for something for them to enjoy and get a laugh out of. But there was another post in early November where I posted and got the community members to share their favourite picture of Arviat, whether it was a sunset or a hunting photo, a fishing photo, something like that, just to remind them that we're one strong community and no matter what, we're always there for each other.

MATT GALLOWAY Now, photos of a sunset or a hunting photo, that makes sense. [chuckling] What was the sloppy makeup game?

AMBER KADJUK: [laughing] That was actually one of my staff who thought of that. She said that I think today's the day the community needs a good laugh, so let's try out that game.

MATT GALLOWAY And so what did people do to play?

AMBER KADJUK: They just do your makeup in the sloppiest way possible, and let's see what you can create.

MATT GALLOWAY And what did people what did people post up?

AMBER KADJUK: It was crazy makeup. [laughing]

LAURA TASSIUK: The people enjoyed the guessing game modes.

MATT GALLOWAY And what are they guessing? What's... what's the guessing game?

LAURA TASSIUK: It's a random question. Like, I make up, like, 50 questions and get them to call in to guess the right answer and put into their name when they answer it right. And have a draw at the end.

MATT GALLOWAY What would one of those questions be?

LAURA TASSIUK: The one question I never forget was that during the Christmas time, it was one of the activities. I asked over the radio. It's about anything, cartoons, space, cooking, or hunting, animals, sea animals, anything. It's about anything. This one question is about Walt Disney cartoon character. And I asked a question, which... which princess uses glass slippers?

MATT GALLOWAY Did you get a lot of answers from people?

LAURA TASSIUK: Yes, one... one caller made me laugh because the lady answered Santa Claus. [everyone laughs warmly]

MATT GALLOWAY What do you think that this has given people?

AMBER KADJUK: Even for me and my family at home, it's been really difficult because I'm working. And then my other-half and my daughter are home, so they enjoy the radio and the Facebook games as well because they're home all day and they're not to go out because both are not working and not in day-care. So even for them, it's really useful because they get to keep busy listening to the radio or joining in those games from home.

MATT GALLOWAY What have you heard from your listeners, Laura, about what the work that you're doing has... has meant to them in what is a really difficult time?

LAURA TASSIUK: People calling and saying the radio has helped them so much mentally. Like, when we first heard in November that there was a case in the community, the community was going chaos, and we had to double up the hours at the radio, and that kept them calm and busy.

MATT GALLOWAY What are you... we're doing this this series, and we're asking people where in this really difficult time they're finding hope. Where are you finding hope, Laura, in this moment?

LAURA TASSIUK: I enjoy radio because it keeps me busy, and it's good to hear other people calling in. That makes me feel that I'm not alone. I think I really, really enjoy this because it makes me feel good that I'm helping out other people.

MATT GALLOWAY What about for you, Amber? Where are you finding hope right now?

AMBER KADJUK: Exactly what Laura said. For me, what's keeping me busy, and what's really helping me right now is knowing that I am able to help those who are at home.

MATT GALLOWAY You're both doing really important work, and it's difficult. But I really think your community obviously values what you're doing, and it's really great to hear about that work. Thank you very much for speaking with us.

BOTH: Thank you.

MATT GALLOWAY Take care. Bye-bye.

BOTH: Bye.

MATT GALLOWAY Laura Tassiuk is the radio station manager. Amber Kadjuk is the director of community development for the hamlet of Arviat. We heard about the range of things being broadcast on the radio these days. Joe Karetak is with the Arviat Wellness Society. On Mondays, he hosts a program on the radio dedicated to traditional teachings. Joe, good morning to you.

JOE KARETAK: Good morning to you.

MATT GALLOWAY I want to start our conversation with a little bit from your own program. Take a listen to this.

JOE KARETAK: [Speaking: Inuktitut].

MATT GALLOWAY Joe, what are we listening to?

JOE KARETAK: We're listening to David Alalauk [?] on a radio show, one of the radio shows we had about polar bears. He's going to talk about things that he learned from childhood onward. And that's basically the beginning of that talk show.

MATT GALLOWAY Laura and Amber were talking about how important the radio has been in connecting people. How have you seen that connection being strengthened with your community during the pandemic?

JOE KARETAK: You're listening to just local people, just talking about things or... or the game shows or it's entertaining. Like, even if... even just to hear... you'll hear it all in Inuktitut. Like, the radio show is pretty much all Inuktitut the whole time. Like, when you walk into... walk around town or run into somebody, you know, we're constantly having conversation. We're a very social society. And... and people just randomly talk about anything. And it's often they're quite humorous. They are always cheering each other. And so the radio station is one of the things that you can continue doing that. And so at a time like this, it's... It really does lift up your spirits to listen to the radio.

MATT GALLOWAY How does it help to have the perspective of the elders talking about some of those issues in what is a really difficult time?

JOE KARETAK: Yeah, well, not all of us have grandfathers now and grandmothers. And it's an avenue for them to be able to talk about things that they think are important or the way it was before or anything about today's subject. Like, I find their perspective is quite unique in a sense that whatever subject we start on our trying to talk about, they always started from a very different position than we do. That's... I find that quite intriguing, that, you know, whenever you pick a subject to talk about, we'll start obviously from somewhere. But when it's the elders turn, they always start looks like from the proper place, usually, about the subject.

MATT GALLOWAY We're right in this still, and it feels like it's gone on for a long time. And we know that there's light at the end of the tunnel, but we're not there yet. I'll ask you the question that I asked Amber and Laura, which is where are you finding hope right now in the midst of this?

JOE KARETAK: For me, I have grandchildren. We... we do wish we could see them a lot more. But, electronically, you could see them, FaceTime and that kind of thing. So it's not the same as pysically seeing somebody because, you know, Innuit people, as soon as they see their grandchildren, it just you could feel the love, right? I mean, right away. But in terms of the way Innuit people have always... you just wait it out. Like, sooner or later, things will get OK again.

MATT GALLOWAY Hopefully sooner rather than later. Thanks for the work that you're doing. And it's great to speak with you, Joe. Thank you very much.

JOE KARETAK: Hey, thank you.

MATT GALLOWAY Joe Karetak hosts a radio show dedicated to traditional teachings. Another voice that you'll hear on the radio every evening at 7:00 is the mayor, Joe Savikataaq Jr, and he's with me now. Mayor Savikataaq, good morning to you.

JOE SAVIKATAAQ JR: Good morning. Thank you very much for having me on.

MATT GALLOWAY Thanks for being here. What do you make of the work that your community members are doing to help pull the community together in this in this difficult time, and keep people's spirits up?

JOE SAVIKATAAQ JR: The local radio station is the lifeline right now for... it always has been. It's used for anything and everything. So that's what we're taking advantage of our local radio station to send positive messages and daily updates on COVID numbers at 7:00.

MATT GALLOWAY I mentioned... I mentioned that you do this nightly broadcast yourself. Let's take a little bit of a listen to... this is what the the broadcast sounds like.

JOE SAVIKATAAQ JR: Good evening. I'll switch over to English. [Speaking: Inuktitut] Before I get started, I want a quick happy birthday to [hard to make out]. If you're listening, happy birthday. Today is day 112 of having COVID here in Arviat. And day nine of our local state of emergency. We have [fades out]. I want everyone to put aside your tiredness, your anxiety and your stress. Anything is possible. We just have to believe. Thats it for me from this evening. We'll see you again tomorrow evening at 7:00. And this week is already coming to and end [fades out].

MATT GALLOWAY Put aside your anxiety, and your stress is a powerful message. Why do you want to speak directly with your community?

JOE SAVIKATAAQ JR: Like you heard in that audio recording there, that was day 112. Today's day 117. And and they're definitely COVID fatigue now in Arviat with that many days of being in a lockdown. And the cases are going up and down. With overcrowding issues we have here, it's been quite a challenge to try and keep people calm. And the mental aspects of it are just as dangerous as the virus itself, if not even more dangerous.

MATT GALLOWAY And you do... you do the show with your daughter?

JOE SAVIKATAAQ JR: Yes, that's correct. I go on there 7:00. It's... I call into the radio station from my house and do some updates and talking to the community. And my daughter is very much part of it.

MATT GALLOWAY Why is that important? Nice to be with family.

JOE SAVIKATAAQ JR: It's nice to be with a family, like you said. And there are lots of children here in Arviat. And children, they do have some mental stuff that they're going through, too, with all this lockedown, and not seeing theire friends and going to school and playing out and all that. So that's one of the reasons why my daughter also goes on air.

MATT GALLOWAY Your town was described as one of the friendliest communities. How would you describe Arviat?

JOE SAVIKATAAQ JR: I think we have to add that Arviat is the most patient community in Nunavut, now. Patience is one thing they sure have. And for those that... that have never seen Arviat before, it's a flat area, land. Community's about 3,000. A very young population up here. It is a fly-in-only place. Everything is flown in. Anything that can't be put in an aircraft comes in the summertime on a ship.

MATT GALLOWAY You mentioned the issue of overcrowding, and we've spoken about that before when it came to the spike in cases. How has that housing situation exacerbated the struggle against COVID?

JOE SAVIKATAAQ JR: Well, that's the perfect breeding ground for COVID, overcrowding and lack of houses. It's quite hard to avoid others when you're in a small unit with two bedrooms and 10 people are in there. If one gets it, there's a high chance of that it'll spread within the house. And that is exactly what is happening.

MATT GALLOWAY In the face of that, I mean, you talked about COVID fatigue. How are people holding up?

JOE SAVIKATAAQ JR: People are getting tired now. And just about an hour ago, there was just a release from our chief public health officer that restrictions are going to be eased a little bit, which includes they'll be recommending making house bubbles of two. So you could visit another household now, having a little bubble within a family.

MATT GALLOWAY What difference will that make in tackling that fatigue?

JOE SAVIKATAAQ JR: Don't make a huge difference. It's a little step back toward normal. They'll be a lot healthier mentally by having these little household bubbles.

MATT GALLOWAY How are you holding up? I mean, you've been the mayor for just about a year now?

JOE SAVIKATAAQ JR: Yes, correct. Almost a year now. End of this month, it'll be officially a year that I've been Mayor.

MATT GALLOWAY Some first year in the job! I mean, how are you holding up?

JOE SAVIKATAAQ JR: Oh, yes. It's been quite a year. Luckily, I have very good support from the admin side. And I am doing well, fine, I'm not tired at all, I could keep going and take on whatever is heading our way. Community of 3,000 doesn't probably seem like much to a city in Canada. But everyone here knows everyone, so everyone knows my phone number also. So everyone calls me with anything and everything. So it's been quite busy.

MATT GALLOWAY We're calling this series that we're doing "Canada's Road Ahead", and I mean, in the best-case scenario, we'd be there to talk to you in person, but we have to do this virtually because of the pandemic. When this is done, where do you see your community going? What do you see as... as hope within Arviat?

JOE SAVIKATAAQ JR: Our hope is to get back to the new normal. And the first thing I want to do is see people visiting each other again, and being able to see their children and their grandchildren and get together and have games and dances at the community hall here like they would normally do. And that will be quite the day when it does happen.

MATT GALLOWAY Mr. Mayor, I hope that day is not too far off. In the meantime, it's good to speak with you. Thank you very much.

JOE SAVIKATAAQ JR: Thank you for having time with us. Thank you very much.

MATT GALLOWAY Take care. Bye-bye.

JOE SAVIKATAAQ JR: Bye.

MATT GALLOWAY Joe Savikataaq Jr. is the mayor of Arviat, Nunavut. Next week on "Canada's Road Ahead", we trade the frozen tundra of Nunavut for the fields of Saskatchewan. The CBC News is up next. And then,

MAN: The great advantage would be that if you have these pan-virus vaccines, you could stockpile them, and you'd be ready for the next pandemic.

MATT GALLOWAY Now, the rest of us may not want to think about the next pandemic, but some scientists are already hard at work on a universal coronavirus vaccine. We'll talk about that and what life in this pandemic will look like after we get the shot. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to "The Current" on CBC Radio One. We're back in six minutes. Stay with us.

[Music: Theme]

B.C. woman still sick from COVID-19 one year on; the role of vaccines in this pandemic, and preparing for the next one

Guests: Bill Hanage, Wayne Koff

MATT GALLOWAY: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. And you're listening to "The Current".

[Music: Theme]

MATT GALLOWAY: Still to come, Connie Walker joins me to talk about her excellent new podcast, "Stolen". It's about an Indigenous woman who's gone missing in Montana. Also, the search for a universal vaccine for coronaviruses. But first, the COVID long-haul.

[Music: Theme]

MATT GALLOWAY: A year into this pandemic, it feels like the days are really stretching out, but Lorraine Graves has really been counting those days. She is one of the many Canadians who got COVID-19 but never fully recovered. She is known as a COVID long-hauler. We met her last July. Back then, she had been sick for more than 100 days. Now, we've check back in with her as part of our special coverage, "COVID in Canada, One Year and Counting".

[Music: slow and chilling piano]

LORRAINE GRAVES: I'm Lorraine Graves, an I've been an active, vibrant, middle-aged woman, working again as a journalist until I got COVID a year ago. And at first, it was just a tickle in my throat. I didn't even think I was sick. And then after a week of that, I got hit by a bus, and my lungs, instead of air, they had tapioca pudding in them. I couldn't breathe. I couldn't get a breath. I... I would cough not knowing if I could cough enough to be able to take a breath in. I hurt. My brain was just mush. It was hard to see right. My ears were fizzing and popping and hurting like an earache. I was very sick.

[Music: Piano swells]

LORRAINE GRAVES: The symptoms I'm still dealing with are a very long list. [very dry coughing] Well, a cough. Crushing fatigue. I wake up feeling like I need more coffee, and I live that way all day. And if I drink as much coffee as I'd love, then I can't sleep. On good days, my hands start to shake when I'm tired in the evening. On bad days, I wake up that way. I find it hard to remember a second point. I'm used to being bright and quick. I'm a wordsmith. I can't find even ordinary words. And it's a little like having dementia. But instead of having my memory chipped away from the present going backwards, I can't remember. One day, I tried to remember Ellen Potter's name, and we've known each other since we were six. I've put on a lot of weight, and so I'm hauling that around, and I look like this pudgy, middle-aged woman when in reality, I feel like a 90-pound 98-year-old woman. I'm frail, and I didn't expect to feel like this when I've lived running with the wind in my hair.

[Music: droning synth].

LORRAINE GRAVES: The hardest thing about long COVID is the disappointment. I can't do what I want to. I can't do what I need to.

[Music: droning synth]

LORRAINE GRAVES: I grew up on the prairies, and we admire gumption. And our self-esteem is... is connected to our gumption. And I accomplish very little in a day. And the few days I do feel better, and I can get more done, I've overdone it. And so it's one step forward, three steps back.

[Music: Bright piano]

LORRAINE GRAVES: I'm getting well acquainted with the American version of Sherlock Holmes. It's, I don't know, seven seasons of 20 episodes a season. And I'm binge-watching a lot of things and feeling guilty. And my record is three times having to go back and restart something because I've fallen asleep.

[Music: A bright piano note].

LORRAINE GRAVES: It's a pretty dull life. One of the joys is my husband gave me a hummingbird feeder for Christmas, and he hung it outside the window so I can see it while I'm sitting and lying on the couch. And I watch the hummingbirds come and go all day at sunset, at dusk, it's like last call because they're just one in, one out, one in, one out. And they're gracious and beautiful to watch.

[Music: bright piano].

LORRAINE GRAVES: The thing that's getting me through long COVID is my family's support and the hope that there will be the research, so we know how to make us better. We have our offspring and their partner living with us, and my husband. He was raised more traditionally, and he's taking on more and more of the jobs I did. And he's having to do more of the... I forget the phrase for it... the mental energy that women have to expend keeping their lives organized. So the mental energy is falling on him, and he's been very kind and very supportive.

[Music: Sparse piano notes]

LORRAINE GRAVES: The message I want Canadians to take from my story is you have to be careful. This bug is vile. Keep being careful. The new variants made me need to be more careful. We need research. We need financial support for the people struggling at home. And we need to be believed.

[Music: Sparse piano continues]

MATT GALLOWAY: That's Lorraine Graves, science journalist living in Richmond, BC. As you heard, Lorraine's life changed dramatically this past year. Tomorrow, I'll speak with other Canadians about their life changes in relationships, in work and in themselves. We'd love to hear from you as well. How has this year changed you? And a year into this pandemic, how are you doing? You can tweet us: TheCurrentCBC. Or write an email to: thecurrent@cbc.ca. And tomorrow, we will open our phone lines and take your calls as we mark a year since the declaration of the pandemic. This is "The Current" on CBC Radio one. My name is Matt Galloway.

NURSE: Okay, so today is going to be the Pfizer. Is it your first or the second dose?

VIVIAN MUSNI This is the first time. I was about to take a picture because I wanted to show it to my kids because they told me they told me like, hi, Mommy, can you just take a picture? I wanted to see. I'm going to have a poke today.

NURSE: There we go. Ready? Perfect!

VIVIAN MUSNI Done?! That's it?!

NURSE: Yes!

VIVIAN MUSNI This feels great! I'm so excited to just let them know that Mommy's safe.

MATT GALLOWAY: We heard a lot of excitement during our tour of one of Toronto's vaccination clinics earlier this week. A real sense of hope for the people getting and giving the shots. These vaccines are supposed to bring us back to normal life. The prime minister has called them the light at the end of the tunnel. But now, a year into this pandemic, just how long is that tunnel? Bill Hanage is an associate professor of epidemiology at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health. Bill, good morning.

BILL HANAGE: Good morning, Matt. Thanks for having me.

MATT GALLOWAY: Thanks for being here. We talk a lot about when this is all over and getting back to normal. The vaccines are meant to be our passage there. Are they truly the ticket back to normal?

BILL HANAGE: Yes, I think they are. But it's not going to be coming here immediately. I think we need to calibrate expectations because the vaccines cannot be rolled out instantaneously, and people are not going to be protected immediately. We just heard someone saying that they were safe. Well, people can be infected for a few weeks after they've received the vaccine while immunity builds. So we really do need to be quite careful going forward. Because, as you know, cases have come down from the peak, but they've plateaued again in a lot of places, including Canada.

MATT GALLOWAY: So tell me more about that. I mean, there are these reports of people who have been vaccinated and are still getting sick with COVID. How concerned are you about that?

BILL HANAGE: In the long run, not very because of the fact that most of those people are being infected within the first couple of weeks after they've received their first shot. And then afterwards, things start to drop off. And we get... we do get also cases of infection after receiving, you now, two shots. And it depends, again, on the vaccine in question. But the really good thing about it is that the vaccines seem to be extremely good at preventing against serious disease. That's really wonderful. And I think that people need to remember that when they're thinking about whether or not to get one.

MATT GALLOWAY: There is also an example of a remote northern First Nation in Manitoba, the Mathias Colomb Cree Nation. Two-hundred of the 3,000 people in that Nation have been vaccinated. Last week, they had 10 cases. Now, there's been an outbreak of more than 100. Take a listen to the chief of that First Nation, Lorna Bighetty.

LORNA BIGHETTY: When the people got their needles, that's when everything went out of control. Everybody was relaxing. And when they weren't concerned, they just went out and about, visiting each other, having their parties, just like nothing was wrong. Just a regular day, like every day that we had way before when we didn't have COVID.

MATT GALLOWAY: There is this phrase vaccine exuberance that has been used to describe kind of how people are acting, not everybody, but how some people are acting after they get the shot. How big of a danger is that... that people would let their guard down because the vaccine is here?

BILL HANAGE: I think that's a fantastic example. And just a little sort of... a little story which tells you exactly what we need to be concerned about going forward. People who have been vaccinated protected, but those who have not been vaccinated are not protected yet. In order to fully control a virus like this, we would need around 80 per cent of the population to be fully immune, whether through vaccination or infection. And obviously, we're not anywhere near that yet. So I think that people do need to remember that even though vaccine numbers are building, and that's great, they can still get infected. And we just heard about the potential consequences of that, even for younger people in terms of long COVID. So I think that we do have a light at the end of the tunnel, but the end of the tunnel is not here yet. Be very careful, and do not let your guard down right now.

MATT GALLOWAY: That number, 80 percent, seems really high. We were at this vaccine clinic earlier this week. And the CEO of the University Health Network, Dr. Kevin Smith, estimated that vaccine hesitancy was as high as perhaps 30 per cent. When you take a look at that issue of vaccine hesitancy, how big of a hurdle will that be to beating this virus back to some sort of manageable level?

BILL HANAGE: Yeah, vaccine hesitancy meaning people, you know, not willing at least at first, not to be able to receive the vaccine because they're anxious about it should be taken very seriously. You should listen to people's concerns and see if you can manage to understand them and help them understand better why the vaccine is helpful for them and for others. It does matter also in terms of getting population control. Even though people who do not receive the vaccine can still become immune through infection, the type of immunity that you're going to get through infection is not the same as the type you're going get from vaccine. And we do have some evidence, it's it's not incredibly great evidence right now, so I don't want to be cautious about that. But we do have some evidence that reinfections are possible, in particular with particular variants of the virus that you've probably heard a lot about recently.

MATT GALLOWAY: Yeah. You'd written that elimination is a tall order. Can this virus ever be eradicated, or is it going to be around for a while? And, you know, is that possibility that we will need sort of a booster shot, something that we need to consider in the middle of this?

BILL HANAGE: Well, to put it into context, we've only ever eradicated one virus, and that was smallpox. We've been trying for years to eradicate polio without success because it manages to hold on in certain parts of the world, which are hard to get vaccines to. So we have to recognize that we are going to be struggling with this for quite some time. And while we are struggling with it, it's very valuable to be able to do those other things that have been helpful up until now. And that includes things like mask use. It includes some of this social distancing,, which will be able to be relaxed, you know, as rates of immunity in the population build. But we do have to recognize that this is not something which is going to dissipate overnight. And that even... even as we are moving towards a point where we may end up having to do a dance with multiple different booster shots, and so on, it's a good idea to be sticking to the things that we know work to prevent transmission, such as keeping your contacts down, at least until you've been vaccinated.

MATT GALLOWAY: So paint me a picture of what you think the world would look like? When this rollout of this vaccine is finished, and everybody who wants the vaccine has had the jab.

BILL HANAGE: Well, it depends on which vaccine you're talking about for a start. We do have multiple ones out there, and they likely have somewhat different properties. But I think that we can imagine a world in which people do become infected with SARS-coV-2, but that the disease is extremely mild in comparison with what we see now and is maintained as such by multiple different immunizations. Now, I think the point we want to have is that when we get into that stage, you need to ask yourself, what do you... which is the best place to be starting from? If you look at New Zealand, which has taken an eliminationist approach, they have lost, roughly speaking, one in every million of their citizens to the virus. If you look at the same statistic for various states of the United States, including the one where I'm talking to you from now, Massachusetts, it's one in every 500 residents. So at the point that we are starting to vaccinate, we're starting from a place we've already lost a heck of a lot. So what we should be doing is making sure that we don't lose more on the way to get that vaccine out.

MATT GALLOWAY: And so, again, that... that reinforces the importance of all the measures that we're taking right now, mask-wearing, hand washing, social distancing.

BILL HANAGE: That's right.

MATT GALLOWAY: I also... I mean, when I say, you know, what kind of world are we going to be in? I use the word world deliberately because there is a very different vaccination timeline around the world. There are some countries that won't be vaccinating their populations for years. So where does that leave us? We're a global community, where does that leave us in terms of trying to get back to some degree of normal universally?

BILL HANAGE: Well, it shows how the eradication is not really very likely at all, even if we might be able to get local elimination, as has already been achieved in a few parts of the world as we start rolling out vaccines. It's going to be a very long time, and we need to... before we manage to get vaccines to all parts of the world. And the other thing that we need to think about extremely carefully is, well what are we going to do with this? We should be thinking carefully about making shots available from more resource-rich countries to those lower and middle-income countries that might be struggling to get vaccines otherwise, because protecting them is actually it's a public good because it reduces the amount of virus in the world. We've got a very depressing state of vaccine nationalism, even though at the same time, we can feel a real sense of celebration about the fact that we have these vaccines, which are absolutely astonishing advances in science. However, just having a vaccine doesn't actually help at all. You do actually have to get it into somebody's arm before it starts helping. And it's going to be a really long time before the world has been vaccinated.

MATT GALLOWAY: I started by talking about the light at the end of the tunnel. Just before I let you go, how long is the tunnel?

BILL HANAGE: It depends on exactly where you are. I think that if you're in some of these countries around the world, which are unlikely to be vaccinated, the tunnel may be... tunnel may be quite long. I do think that in the next few months we're going to see a decline, in particular in countries like the United States and Canada as a result of seasonality alongside vaccine rollout. And the key moment which will determine how long the tunnel is going to be, will be in the early fall when the seasonality is going to start turning against us again. And we're going to start seeing how much and whether we get... we got an uptick in the disease.

MATT GALLOWAY: Bill Hanage, it's good to speak with you about this. Thank you very much.

BILL HANAGE: Thank you.

MATT GALLOWAY: Bill Hanage is an associate professor of epidemiology at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health. We are obviously very focused on the vaccines rolling out now, but what about for the next pandemic and the next virus? [chuckling] Most of us probably don't want to think about that, but Dr. Anthony Fauci, the chief medical adviser to the U.S. president, certainly does.

ANTHONY FAUCI: I believe that we have the capability scientifically to develop what we call the universal coronavirus vaccine. We got hit with three in 18 years that have been either pandemic or pandemic potential. So shame on us if we don't develop a universal coronavirus vaccine.

MATT GALLOWAY: Wayne Koff is the founder and CEO of the Human Vaccines Project and adjunct professor of epidemiology at Harvard University. Wayne Koff, good morning to you.

WAYNE KOFF: Pleasure to be here, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: When Tony Falchi talks about a universal Coronis vaccine, what is he specifically referring to?

WAYNE KOFF: So... so the reality is... is... is that this is... this is a virus that is part of a larger family of viruses. And there are the the hundreds, if not more, of the coronaviruses that are in a variety of animals, such as the bats. And as Tony has pointed out, we've already had, a couple of decades ago, emergence of SARS. And then a decade ago, emergence of MERS. And then we had this one. So it's... you know, it isn't a matter of if we're going to get another one, it's a matter of when we're going to get another one. And even though we have this unbelievably excellent R&D effort across the world, which has led to a variety of the vaccines within a year. It was... it still is late in that we got 100-hundred million of the cases. We've got a couple of million that have died. And the pandemic is not over. So the idea here is if we get.... if we can make a vaccine, which is... is... it is going to protect against all of the coronaviruses, that's the idealistic concept of a universal vaccine. But even if we're not able to do that, if we can make a vaccine against a large of the set of the coronaviruses, we'll be a lot, lot better off next time.

MATT GALLOWAY: Is that possible if there are hundreds or thousands of coronaviruses, as you say?

WAYNE KOFF: Yes. I mean, I feel that if you if you think about all viruses, every virus has... has... has a number of what we in the field called of the Achilles heels. And in the case of the coronaviruses, we already know that there is a number of regions of the virus that are the... the... the cross reactive regions. So, some... some of the coronaviruses are just going to cause a common cold. And we know that there are regions on those... those viruses that are extremely, extremely similar, if not exactly the same as some of the regions on the virus that is the cause of the current epidemic. The.. the key is, is that a lot of those those areas of the virus are not immunogenic or not as... as the immunogenic as the region on the out of spike of the virus that is that is the target of the vaccines that have just... have just been made. And so... and so the key is really to identify the regions and make them immunogenic.

MATT GALLOWAY: The first couple of vaccines that arrived to fight COVID-19 were based on mRNA. And people have talked about this as a game-changer, that this offers huge promise for a number of different scientific approaches. But is that science the kind of thing that you could employ to create a universal coronavirus vaccine?

WAYNE KOFF: Absolutely. You know, one of the... of the... of the huge advances with the mRNA vaccines is that one, we can rapidly make these... these... these vaccines. And so if we if we're thinking in terms of the universal vaccine, we have to test a number of the regions of the virus to... to see which ones are the immunogenic regions. We have a real opportunity of the utilization of the mRNA vaccines in that capacity. And the other aspect is... is that they work, and they're extreme... they're extremely effective and safe. And so I think the real key here for... for what we have called a pan-coronavirus vaccine, which is... is to... is to work against the subset of the coronaviruses, or universal vaccine, which is going to work against all of them, is really is to undertake a huge antigen discovery effort. And in this case, we... you know, we have the capacity now through advances in AI and machine learning and such to to really address a problem like this that we wouldn't have been able to do a decade ago.

MATT GALLOWAY: You have said, and others have said certainly, that it's not if the next pandemic arrives, it's when the next pandemic arrives. Given that, why is it important, do you think, to invest in this sort of universal vaccine now?

WAYNE KOFF: Well, just as, you know, as I said in the beginning, in spite of the incredibly unprecedented R&D effort which has led to a number of the effective vaccines in... in this in this case over the past year, it was too late. We got 100-million cases. We have a couple of million people have died. And so... and so what we really want to do is to... is to work as fast as we can here now because... because we don't have any idea if the next virus is going to emerge in a year, in a decade or 100 years. But we've... we've seen already the emergence of a number of the coronaviruses over the last... last couple of decades. So a number of us feel that, you know, it's likely within a decade, certainly, that we're going to have an emergence of, you know, another virus. It may not be on the scale of this one, but on the other hand, the the emergence of the MERS virus, you know, it had a fatality rate of one in three. The emergence of SARS virus had a fatality rate of one in 10. The one we have now has it has a fatality rate of about one in 100. So if you if you think about it, although as bad as the pandemic is, it could have been a lot worse. And so that,... that really gives us the urgency to... to begin now. And what we're going to need essentially is... is a global effort, a coordinated effort, a huge antigen discovery effort, an effort to look at the viruses in the animal species now and, you know, identify with the tools that we all already have, you know, which are the the likely ones that are going to emerge. You know, which are the ones that are in the animals now that can actually infect humans

MATT GALLOWAY: Wayne Koff, in the midst of this pandemic, it's chilling in some ways to look ahead to what might be coming. [chuckling] But I really appreciate speaking with you. Thank you very much.

WAYNE KOFF: Thank you.

MATT GALLOWAY: Wayne Koff, the founder and CEO of the Human Vaccines Project and the CEO of Human Immune Initiative. He's also an adjunct professor at Harvard University. Coming up after your regional update, former CBC journalist Connie Walker will be here. She has a new podcast looking at a missing and murdered Indigenous woman in Montana. We'll tell you all about it coming up in about 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway. This is "The Current" on CBC Radio One.

[Music: Theme]

Connine Walker on her new podcast

Guest: Connie Walker

MATT GALLOWAY: Hello, this is "The Current". My name is Matt Galloway. Jermain Charlo was 23 years old when she mysteriously disappeared from her home on the Flathead Reservation near Missoula, Montana, two-and-a-half years ago. Her case is still open. Her family still hoping for answers.

WOMAN: This dog here, I swear she's hanging on until we find her as well. This is Angel, and that's where she stayed was with Jermain most of the time.

CONNIE WALKER: Really?

VICKY: Yeah.

CONNIE WALKER: Oh! She loved animals, eh?

VICKY: Oh yeah, animals. She always wanted to have a little farm of her own. Quite the artist. Really, a very good artist. Very good writer.

MATT GALLOWAY: That's Vicky, Jermain's grandmother. And you may recognize the other voice in that conversation, the award-winning journalist Connie Walker, formerly of the CBC. Connie is best known for her missing and murdered series looking into the disappearances of Alberta Williams and Cleo Semaganis here in Canada. Connie's new podcast with Gimlet Media is called "Stolen: The Search for Jermain". And in it, she follows the case of Jermain Charlo, learning about what it means to be an Indigenous woman in the United States. And Connie Walker joins me now. Connie, good morning.

CONNIE WALKER: Good morning. Thanks so much for having me.

MATT GALLOWAY: Congratulations on this.

CONNIE WALKER: Thank you. Thank you.

MATT GALLOWAY: Who's Jermain?

CONNIE WALKER: Jermain is a mother, she's a daughter, a sister, a granddaughter, a cousin and a friend. She's a 23-year-old woman from the Confederated Salish and Kootenai Tribes in Montana. You know, we have strange jobs in a lot of ways. My job is very strange in that I get to meet Jermain through the people who... who knew her best. But a lot of my work is focused on women and girls that I can never actually meet, you know? I mean, everyone is obviously hoping Jermain is found and that she's able to come home safely. But I think there's also an acceptance that she's been the victim of a criminal act. You know, getting to know Jermain through Vicky and through her family, and getting to look at photographs and learn about her in this way. It's such a strange experience, but but also a real privilege to get to meet her family and to kind of be there alongside them as they go through this.

MATT GALLOWAY: How did you come to hear about her?

CONNIE WALKER: Well, I as you said, I left CBC and joined Gimlet last year, and started looking into reporting on this issue in the United States and realized there are so many similarities between Indigenous people in Canada and in the United States. But I also know that there are so many differences. And so we kind of started the same way that you start any story, right? Is like contacting and meeting the people who are already kind of doing this work. And it's happening in the United States in the same way that it kind of happened in Canada. You know, it's grassroots advocates, usually Indigenous women who are working in their communities who have some kind of personal connection to this issue of violence against Indigenous women and girls who are now advocating and trying to address it. And one of those women is named Lauren Small Rodriguez. And I met her, and she was the first person to tell me about Jermain. And Lauren is a woman from Northern Cheyenne Tribe in Montana, but she lives and works in Missoula. And she works with trafficking victims. So she first told me about Jermain and suggested that I look into her case. And I had already started paying attention to Montana because there are a lot of cases of missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls in Montana. And I'm sure that's true of other parts of the country as well. But there are also a lot of, you know, really strong women who are pushing this issue forward and kind of demanding attention and demanding some change. So I was already kind of focussed on Montana. And then when I heard about Jermain Charlo, I wanted to know more. And that led to a phone call with Guy Baker, which actually happened the week of the pandemic last year like it was, you know, I remember talking to him and thinking I can't wait to meet him and learn more about Jermain! But we're going to have to wait, like everyone else.

MATT GALLOWAY: And Guy Baker is the lead investigator in this case?

CONNIE WALKER: Yeah, he's the.... he's the lead detective in Jermain Charlo's disappearance. And, I mean, coming from Canada and coming from doing reporting in Canada, meeting Guy Baker was such a unique experience for me. Because, you know, in Canada, when when something is considered an open or active investigation, police, RCMP generally don't tell you very much more than, you know, the basic facts of a case. And Guy Baker is... Is much more open. You know, in our first conversation with him about Jermain's case, you know, I talked to him for over an hour. He walked me through kind of the three main investigative theories that he's been looking into in her case. And when I say walk me through, I mean, like, you know, he went quite in-depth on on the work that he's been doing in all of these leads. And it was also really interesting, I think, for Guy, because it seems like this is also a really personal thing for him. You know, he talked to me about how he also never got to meet Jermain Charlo, but now feels like he... he knows her and care so much about her. So much that, you know, he described in our first conversation, remembering being on vacation with his wife in Las Vegas. And it was on the anniversary of Jermain's disappearance, and on the first anniversary. And he remembered like staring up at the ceiling in his hotel room, not being able to sleep, wondering where Jermain was?

MATT GALLOWAY: Wow!

CONNIE WALKER: And if he was going to be able to find her? And sending a text to her family that night to say, like, I'm not going to give up. I'm... I'm.... I'm not going to give up. And I never thought it would take this long. But trying to reassure them that he was committed to trying to find some answers.

MATT GALLOWAY: You say... and it's very early on in the first episode of the podcast, as you're talking about the story and talking about meeting with the family, I want to get this right. Can you me about that? About why... why you said that specifically?

CONNIE WALKER: I mean, I'm an Indigenous woman. I'm Cree from Saskatchewan. I grew up in my community. I... I... I think that I'm really motivated by my personal connection to my community and my family, my experiences as an Indigenous woman in the work that I do. But my experience is as a Cree woman from Saskatchewan. And I don't know what it is to be a member of the Bitterroot Salish or part of the Confederated Salish and Kootenai Tribes in Montana. I don't know what it is to be an Indigenous woman in Montana. I have maybe an idea. You know, I think there are a lot of similarities, but I know that... that there are some key differences. And and I was a stranger to Jermain's family and to her community. And, you know, there's an incredible diversity of Indigenous nations across North America, but there's also an incredible diversity of Indigenous experiences. I know that whatever Jermain's story is, that it's connected back to that identity of being a Salish woman in Montana. And I don't know that history. And so for me, it was, you know, feeling a little bit uneasy about going to another community and going to another country and also trying to take on these stories. And wanting to make sure that I didn't make the same mistake that other journalists have made when they've covered Indigenous stories in Canada or in my community or, you know, anywhere.

MATT GALLOWAY: Mistakes like... mistakes like what?

CONNIE WALKER: Well, mistakes like coming into a community and not understanding the history or context, not caring about it, maybe being extractive in terms of the way that you approach stories, maybe being disrespectful and not taking into consideration some of the context and how important that is in this story. And that for me, is something I've seen how harmful that has been to Indigenous people, to families who have felt exploited by media. And I feel like a huge responsibility to families when... when I meet them and when I try to help them tell their story.

MATT GALLOWAY: You've talked about I mean, and this is a phrase that our friend Duncan McCue here at CBC uses, which is being a storyteller, not a story taker.

CONNIE WALKER: Yeah, yeah. That's I feel like that's... that's kind of the essence of it. And I feel like even though I have heard Duncan talk about that for a long time and I felt like I understood it, I still I made that mistake. Like, in the "Finding Cleo" podcast, I remember you know, obviously this story was about trying to find Cleo and trying to find Christine Cameron's sister. But it was also, I think in a lot of ways, Christine's journey about learning about her own history and learning about her own past and what happened to her and what happened to her family, you know, when she was a baby still. And at one point in the podcast, Marnie and I travelled to Little Pine, which is the community where Christine and Cleo and their mother were from. And within like ten minutes of arriving on the... on the reserve, I was meeting the chief, who was also a relative of Cleo and Christine's, and he had arranged for us to take part in a pipe ceremony. So I'm sitting in a tepee. I'm hearing the elder that he brought to conduct the ceremony, speaking Cree. I'm smelling the sweet grass. I'm sitting in the grass. And I remember feeling so good. I'm like, Oh, I love this. It feels so good to be home. And it just felt like amazing. I was like, this is... this is incredible. But while we were there, I realized that it shouldn't be me experiencing this, that all of these things, this connection to her family, to her culture, to her community were things that Christine had been longing for. And that she had, you know, has been really searching for along with her sister. And it felt like I had become the story taker, like that I had... I was leading the way on on what was really her story and her journey.

MATT GALLOWAY: And so in this story, I mean, what was it... you're doing this reporting in the midst of a pandemic. You go down. We heard you speaking with Vicky, Jermain's grandmother. What was it like to be there sitting on the porch, for example, in these really difficult circumstances? That would be really important, I guess, for you to be down there to do this?

CONNIE WALKER: Yeah, I mean, I think that a lot of radio and podcasting has been able to happen pretty seamlessly, even through the pandemic. But for the kind of reporting that I do, I think it's almost it's next to impossible, really. Because I think that the trust that you need to build with families is so important. I didn't even get to talk to Vicky until I, you know, arrived at her house and just walk around her yard and look at her flowers and meet the dog. And that, you know, is not a huge commitment in terms of the time like to do that kind of thing. But... but I think that it's so important for... for families who are going through, you know, this incredible loss in this incredible grief and this incredible trauma to... to make sure that... that I can build that kind of a relationship with them. And it's... it's, you know, very difficult to imagine doing that over the phone or even over Zoom. And so it was important for us to travel there. But, you know, I mean, Vicky is, you know, I... I really... you know, meeting her was a really special thing because she felt familiar to me in some ways. And I feel like that's also kind of my... my own personal experience, I guess, coming through my work in that she reminded me of like other Indigenous elders that I know or that... that, you know, and I feel like that getting a chance to just spend some time with somebody and walk around and meet them is really important, I think, for... for this work and for helping to understand also where... like who Jermain comes from, who are the people? Like, Jermain has a long line of incredibly strong women behind her who are not only trying to find her and pushing to find her, but also pushing for answers and, you know, pushing law enforcement and pushing media and pushing... pushing everyone to try to bring Jermain home.

MATT GALLOWAY: I want to talk about law enforcement in a moment, but there are other people who've been looking for Jermain. Take a listen to this from the podcast.

LOWELL HOCHHALTER: As she left the bar that night, you just saw her walking away. But it wasn't... it wasn't closing time. It was dark, but it wasn't closing time.

CONNIE WALKER: It's so... it's such a haunting image, right? Like walking... walking away out of frame. And then, you know, you just want to know what... what the next... you know, what... what... what was... what was happening there that the camera didn't see or like if the camera was tilted up a little bit more.

LOWELL HOCHHALTER: Exactly. Yeah. Haunting is probably the best descriptor of that. It is absolutely, you know, just so many questions of if only, if only.

MATT GALLOWAY: Connie, who was talking there, and what's he describing?

CONNIE WALKER: That's Lowell Hochhalter. He he runs this non-profit organization in Missoula that's aimed at trying to stop human trafficking. It's called THE LIFEGUARD GROUP. And when her family, Jermain's family, reported her missing, it's fascinating to just learn about all the kind of jurisdictional issues that happen on reservations in the United States. But Flathead is a very large reserve. And there are actually five different counties that have jurisdiction on this reserve. So depending on where you are in the reserve, if something happens, like five different police forces [chuckle] could be responding to you. But because Jermain is from the tribe, but she disappeared in Missoula, her family didn't know where to go to report her missing. And once they did, once they were able to finally report her missing, then, you know, they sensed a lack of urgency from police, which is such a familiar story. Like, you now, when you're looking into this issue of violence against Indigenous women or missing or murdered Indigenous women and girls in Canada or the United States, that's something that I feel like I hear over and over and over again. And so what they did is reach out to this this non-profit organization called THE LIFEGUARD GROUP. And they started searching for Jermain. I think they had done two or three searches in the first few weeks of Jermain's disappearance. And so Lowell has become quite close to the family, but he's also has a close relationship with law enforcement. And so he actually was able to see the surveillance footage taken, you know, moments before Jermain disappeared. And he watched this video of her at this bar in downtown Missoula. Missoula is a college town. It's a busy place. [chuckling] There are a lot of bars in downtown Missoula. And and Jermain was out on a summer night, you know, before she disappeared. And she was on this surveillance footage. And Lowell got to watch it. And he's seen this video that... that even her family hasn't been able to see. And he talked to us about what he saw and, you know, what he wished he could have seen when Jermain left that alley.

MATT GALLOWAY: That lack of urgency, as you say, is a familiar thing, right? I mean, if you take a look at the work that you've done here in Canada, and whether it's the podcasts, whether it's more broadly than that, how would you describe the similarities between that lack of urgency there and what has or hasn't happened here?

CONNIE WALKER: Before we even worked on the podcast, we did this database for a CBC called "Missing and Murdered". And the goal was to try to find as many unsolved cases as we could. But to not only focus on the violence. To try to tell the bigger stories of the women and girls who are missing or who have been murdered. You know, when we're reaching out to families to to to connect with them and to talk with them and to ask them, for so many of them, this was the first time ever talking to the media. And so many of them told us about how they felt like their loved ones disappearance wasn't taken seriously. There was a lot of criticism of police response. And I think that that's a... that's... that sounds like a very familiar thing in the United States as well. The detective who... who is now assigned to Jermain's case, who has this personal connection to it, he wasn't assigned to Jermain's case until 11 days after her disappearance, which doesn't sound like a lot, you know, if someone's been missing for two-and-a-half-years. But obviously, the first 11 days are really, really important in terms of... of investigative leads. And Guy Baker didn't start until 11 days. And that, I think, is something he regrets, or he wishes he could have been on sooner. But... but the reality is that... that it took that long for for him to be assigned. And her family will never know what could have changed or what would have changed if someone had taken her case more seriously right from the get-go.

MATT GALLOWAY: In many ways, that goes back to what you say right at the very beginning of the very first episode of this podcast in which you talk about Pamela George, who was Pamela George?

CONNIE WALKER: Pamela George was a young woman from Saskatchewan. She grew up and was from a reserve that was not far from where I'm from in Saskatchewan. And she was a single mom of two kids, and a mother, and a sister, and... and an Auntie. And she was killed in 1995 when I was in high school. I never knew Pamela. But I remember Pamela so clearly because of the way that her death was talked about and because the two men who were on trial for her murder were two white university students. And so much of the attention in the media was focussed on them. I found a news story from the CBC's the National Archives of a reporter covering their trial and Pamela's death. And the two men were described as Alexander Ternowetsky's a basketball star. Steven Kummerfield's a hockey standout. And the victim is an Aboriginal prostitute. And that was the way that the media talked about Pamela at the time. You know, we didn't get to hear about her family, her mother, that she was a mother, that she was a sister, she was a daughter, that she was reduced to this one thing. And the fact that they were acquitted in her murder. They were convicted of of manslaughter, even though they admitted to picking her up. One of them hid in the trunk. They admitted to taking her outside of the city. They admitted to beating her. They admitted to sexually assaulting her and leaving her there in a ditch. And she died. And I think they were sentenced to six years but only served four-and-a-half. And for me, that... that obviously was such a huge injustice for Pamela and her family and her friends. But for all Indigenous women and girls who... who saw the way that she was treated and thinking about what that said about the way that our lives were valued as well. And that was really the first time I thought about becoming a journalist. I remember writing something for this high school newsletter. We didn't have a newspaper. We had a little newsletter. And I continue to think about Pamela George, you know, for a long time there just wasn't interest in hearing our perspective or our side of these stories. And now that there is, I think about women like Pamela and how differently things might have been.

MATT GALLOWAY: Have the way those stories have been told has that changed significantly, do you think? I mean, I think a lot of people like to pat themselves on the back and say, yes, we've moved along from there. But has that actually happened?

CONNIE WALKER: I think some aspects have changed. But think about Cindy Gladue and the way that she was treated in media following her... her murder. And the way that her family and the way that, you know, her community saw her being portrayed in media over years. I don't know that... that enough has changed. Definitely not. I think what has changed is that we're starting to recognize how important it is for Indigenous people to be telling our stories, to be in in these spaces where our stories are being discussed and told and that it's really important that we are there. I think there are... there are still so many issues around, I don't have to tell you, just around whether or not newsrooms or or journalism organiations are actually safe spaces for Indigenous people to do this work. There's so much room for improvement, and it's not happening fast enough. You know, things have changed. Things have gotten better. You know, I was at CBC for 20 years. And where things were when I left, I could never have even imagined when I walked in that there would be an Indigenous unit that would have 10 dedicated reporters across the country dedicated to telling our stories. But it seems like with every step forward there, there are also some steps back. And, you know, you think of people like Waubgeshig Rice, or people like Christine Grenier, or people like me who have to leave the CBC in order to feel like we can continue to do the stories we want. That's... that's a failure. And that's showing that there are still problems and there are still things that need to be addressed.

MATT GALLOWAY: There's a lot of humility in your storytelling. And I mean, you talk about, you know, I'm not from here and that you really try to... to be the storyteller, not the story taker. But this is a big podcast. It's getting a lot of attention. And a lot of people perhaps are paying attention to a story that maybe they didn't pay attention to before. In that moment, what... what do you see as your responsibility?

CONNIE WALKER: I feel a huge responsibility to Jermain's family and community and her friends and people who shared her with us and shared her story. It's incredible that her case is getting attention. And I know that I'm sure that that's appreciated. But I didn't breathe a full breath yesterday until I heard from Vicky last night.

MATT GALLOWAY: When the podcast came out?

CONNIE WALKER: Yeah, it's such a difficult thing for families to go through. Obviously, you know, they want answers. They want to get attention. They want to keep Jermain's story out there. But what that looks like in the context of reporting these stories is really tricky. It's very tricky because I have the best of intentions. I want to take a trauma-informed approach as much as I possibly can. But the reality is these are real people's lives, even... even... even the idea of like we're doing a podcast about Jermain. We're telling a story about Jermain. Her life is not a story. Her life is her life, and her family is her family. And this is their real lives. This is something that they are going through. And so what I feel like my responsibility as a journalist is... is trying to help them understand what this means to tell a podcast. Because for them, they're like, you're here with the microphone. Great, looks... it seems like you're doing a really in-depth thing. But they didn't necessarily have a sense. So I feel like I'm trying to help them understand. I'm like, the trailer is coming out. It's very short. It's very dramatic. Like that's kind of the way that it is. It's meant to be a tease. And when her Aunt Dannie, who is also someone who I've talked to several times now and gotten to meet. When she first listened to the trailer, she was like, to be honest, I was really surprised. It sounded so good. [Matt and Connie laugh] Which I thought I was like I was like, oh, great. OK, good! Because, I mean, I was so concerned because it's obviously a dramatic thing, but it's making a story of this real experience for them. You know, I'm trying to be as careful as I can be in trying to take into consideration the grief that they're living and the trauma that they've been through. And they're trusting me. And they're sharing this story with me. And they're left with so much exposure. And I don't want to leave them in a worse place than where they already are, you know? And that's a huge responsibility, I feel, especially because every story that I've covered around MMIW, I'm there to talk about the loss of a loved one, but it's never the only trauma that they have gone through or they have experienced. And for me, like what what the goal of the podcast is... is to try to, you know, capitalize on some of this popularity that true crime has, like this appetite for hearing these stories. And to try to tell a bigger story about what it means to be a Native woman in Montana. Or about, you know, how the Sixties Scoop affected one Cree family from Saskatchewan but actually affected tens of thousands of families across the country. Or, you know how an unsolved murder from 1989, what that says about this legacy of colonialism and residential schools and how that's impacted Indigenous people and our relationship with police. Like, those... those are the bigger goals that I'm trying to help illuminate, along with bringing attention to Jermain's specific case and specific story. And I feel a lot of responsibility in bringing those stories forward.

MATT GALLOWAY: You've done a great job. And I can't wait to hear the rest of it. It's always great to talk to you, Connie. Thank you very much.

CONNIE WALKER: Thanks so much for having me, Matt. I appreciate it.

MATT GALLOWAY: You can listen to Connie Walker's new podcast series, "Stolen: the Search for Jermain on Spotify. That's it for "The Current" for today. Coming up next on CBC Radio One, it's "q" And coming up tomorrow on "The Current", we continue our special coverage, "COVID in Canada, One Year and Counting". We are opening up the phone lines, taking your calls from 9:30 to 10:00 a.m. in every time zone across this country, asking for your stories about how you're doing a year into this pandemic. And we'll hear from people who've made big life changes during the pandemic as well. From moving in with family, to starting a new career. Courtney Belisle owned and ran a fitness studio in North Bay, Ontario. And when it shut down last spring, she decided that she would do something completely different. I'm Matt Galloway thanks for listening to "The Current" we'll talk to you tomorrow.

COURTNEY BESLISLE: What really kind of shifted it was there was an opportunity to move down to Windsor. It was like a fresh start. And I said, you know what? Like, let's just do it, you know, let's switch things up. And it all happened very quickly. As soon as I made the decision to come down to Windsor, within a couple of weeks, I had found out about a program to get into the trades industry. And kind of felt like that's when the light... there was a distant light at the tunnel. And I started thinking, wow, if I could get into this, I... I feel like I could really change my life and get going again.

MATT GALLOWAY: Had you ever thought of doing something like this before? I mean, again, you're coming out of a completely different industry in running a fitness studio.

COURTNEY BESLISLE: When I was younger, I had thought about getting into welding because I had some family and friends who were in the natural gas industry. And a lot of them talked about welding and that sort of thing. And I had thought about it. But again, being a woman, it was always kind of like, no, that's kind of a dirty trade, and it's loud, and it's messy, and you're not going to like it. And so I kind of just stayed in my lane and I ended up, to be honest, it was kind of something that just I seen the opportunity come up, and I thought, this time I've been going through it's kind of everything's been kind of up in the air. So why not this opportunity come out of nowhere and me go, oh, let's... let's try this. I look at everything that's happened as an adventure because I refuse to be a victim despite the struggles that kind of first appeared when everything happened. I've learnt a lot about myself. I've learnt a lot about what I value and what I no longer value. I've blown myself away with the things that I've been capable of doing and the things I pushed myself through. And so I do look at life as... as an adventure. And this year is no different.

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March 10, 2021 Episode Transcript

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