Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2021

The Current Transcript for March 04, 2021

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

MAN: This is one small step, but it is an important step towards justice and accountability for crimes committed by the Syrian regime.

MATT GALLOWAY: In an hour, what a ruling in a German court against a member of Syria's regime means for those still looking for justice. We begin, though, with a story of family, friends, community and the closest of calls with COVID. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. And this is "The Current".

[Music: Theme]

Canada’s Road Ahead: COVID-19’s impact on Filipino-Canadians

Guests: Lester Quives, Christie-Mae Quives

MATT GALLOWAY: Well, for the last few months, we have been travelling, virtually, across this country in something that we are calling "Canada's Road Ahead". A series looking at how COVID is affecting Canadian communities. This week, we have arrived in Manitoba, the city of Steinbach in particular. It's on the very eastern edge of the prairies, south of Winnipeg. You may have heard about Steinbach in the news last fall when it was hit very hard by COVID's second wave.

[Music: An informatively news-like xylophone]

MAN: In Steinback, the 10-day test positivity rate is 40 per cent.

MAN#2: [fading up] Concern is growing. Hundreds of people are sick with COVID. There are outbreaks in six personal care homes and assisted living facilities.

WOMAN: [fading up] Help with COVID-19 cases there. It's putting pressure on the community's hospital, where last week, nurses had to triage patients in their vehicles.

[Music: Xylophone fades out]

MATT GALLOWAY: Many families in this city saw the impact of COVID up close.

LESTER QUIVES: Red light, yellow light, green light.

[Music: A few notes ring out from a piano]

MATT GALLOWAY: Lester Quives is helping his daughters, Chrysshell and Chloelynn practice piano. Mom, Christie-Mae looks on. And it's not just the piano. They're also working on their singing voices.

[the family vocalizes].

MATT GALLOWAY: Music is a big part of this household. Lester has been using it as a form of therapy ever since he came down with COVID last November. And karaoke is especially good, apparently, for giving his lungs a workout.

[Music: The family sings along to a Christmas carol]

MATT GALLOWAY: He sounds pretty good now, but just a few months ago, Lester was on a ventilator and in a coma for over a week, all a result of COVID-19. He was working as a health care aide at a local nursing home and part-time at the hospital where Christie-Mae works in the lab. Good morning to you both.

BOTH: Good morning.

MATT GALLOWAY: Great singing voice there.

LESTER QUIVES: Oh, thank you. [Lester and Christie-Mae laugh]

MATT GALLOWAY: Take me back, Lester, to when you realized you had COVID last fall. How were you feeling? What was going on?

LESTER QUIVES: It was the day after my last day of work. And then, when I got home, I felt so tired. And then the next day, I have body fatigue, muscle aches. And then the next day after that, I have a fever. I was coughing. I have diarrhea. I was vomiting. Well, every symptoms of COVID was with me. And then, on the day ninth, I have shortness of breath. And that's the time my wife, Christie, called the ambulance and then they brought me to the... the hospital emergency room. And I found out that my oxygen level was 83 per cent because my wife saw that my fingernails were turning purple already.

MATT GALLOWAY: Oh, my goodness!

LESTER QUIVES: So they were able to manage to bring up my oxygen level to above 90s. And then they transferred me to an isolation room. But then, a few minutes after transfer, my oxygen level went down again. And then the doctor decided to intubate me because it's going critical. The results are going critical. So they have to do the intubation on that day itself for me to be able to survive.

MATT GALLOWAY: Christie, you're there as all of this is unfolding. Initially, when... when he was starting to get sick, what were you thinking as... as all of those various symptoms were starting to appear?

CHRISTIE-MAE QUIVES: Well, because we are working the hospital, so I'm expecting already that probably he had COVID that time. So I thought to myself, what if we have COVID, too? But I said it's just fine because we are healthy persons. We have a good lifestyle, healthy. We eat healthy. But then, all the family had COVID, but he has the worst one. The girls, my two kids, we have COVID, and mine, but we got the mild one. If you can see Lester, I don't think that he's getting better every day. He's getting worse every day, actually. He became confused, and everything turned into, you know, purple, fingernails and everything, he cannot breathe anymore. So I decided to call 9-1-1 right away.

MATT GALLOWAY: And he mentioned that they took him to hospital and then they had to, after a number of different steps, and worrying that his oxygen levels were getting low, they had to intubate him. You get this call. What was that like?

CHRISTIE-MAE QUIVES: When I able to talk to the nurse, I was crying. I was crying. And I remember I said, just do everything you can do. Yeah. So and then I talked to my husband, and keep saying, I was crying, and I said, you promised that you come back. So, yeah. Actually, when I was crying, my little girl, just give me a note... give me a note saying stop crying, Ma, or else I'll cry. So my girls are my strength at that time. And they said, Papa is just sleeping. You don't have to worry. He said he will come back. So yeah.

MATT GALLOWAY: And Lester, you'd promised that you were going to come back?

LESTER QUIVES: Yes, I did. I actually, the night when it went awry, so my youngest daughter, she saw everything. She stared at me, and I told her, don't worry, don't cry, I'll be back.

MATT GALLOWAY: Did you believe that? I mean, that you say that. And it's really important, obviously, to say that. But how scared were you? Did you believe that you'd be back?

LESTER QUIVES: Actually, because I don't really know the process of intubations, but then deep inside, I think I have I have that faith that I'll probably be going back to life and be able to spend with my family again.

MATT GALLOWAY: You eventually end up in a coma in a hospital in a different city in Winnipeg. And as you mentioned, Christie-Mae, I mean, you're isolated with with the girls and you can't be there. What did you lean on for support? I mean, it's an awful time, and I can't imagine going through that and not being able to be right there. What did you lean on, Christie-Mae?

CHRISTIE-MAE QUIVES: So, I have a very supportive family, very strong support from the family and friends, and even my co-workers and Lester's co-workers. They are very supportive. And my faith, my faith is the one that really makes me stronger at the time. So, yes, you know, it's very tough situation, but then you have to accept that it's happening and you just have to pray that your husband or your loved ones will come back and believe that he will.

MATT GALLOWAY: And he did. Describe what happened. I mean, we're going to play a little bit of this, you get really good news. And you posted this message up on Facebook. Take a listen to this.

CHRISTIE-MAE QUIVES: [in a Facebook video] Good news, guys! We just called HSC. And we just finished our Zoom time with Lester. And, you know, Lester is awake already! He opened his eyes. He's blinking his eyes. If we're going to ask a question, he's going to nod his head. And I'm always saying, show your big eyes, Love. Show your big eyes. Open your eyes. And then he can open his very, very big. And then, oh, so nice!

MATT GALLOWAY: Oh, my goodness! Describe what that moment was like?

CHRISTIE-MAE QUIVES: I didn't expect actually that Lester open them. [laughing] But...

MATT GALLOWAY: It's really powerful. It's really moving. That's OK.

CHRISTIE-MAE QUIVES: Because, you know, after time I called HSC, in the middle of the night, even 12:00 midnight, [breaking into tears] I cannot call the nurses, and they say to me, oh, we don't know the progress yet because he's still not awake. He's not responding, you know? And it's very hard for me as a wife to hear that. And then.... [crying intensifies] I'm sorry I've become so emotional. Just to remember the pain, you know? He opened his eyes and unexpected, actually. Unexpected because, yeah, it was overwhelming. I was keep shouting, oh, my Love! My Love! Just shouting. That's all I can say at that time. Oh my Gosh, he's back. He's back. So, yeah. So unexpected.

MATT GALLOWAY: And you had people... I mean, it's incredible moment. And you had people who are all around the world who are supporting you as well through this?

CHRISTIE-MAE QUIVES: Yes, actually, I am not the kind of person that's going to post on Facebook. But there's lots of people texting me, how's Lester. So I decided to make it public. So I'm so happy that there are lots of people even we don't know them, almost the entire world, actually, texting you from U.S., from Asian countries. I'm very thankful until now for their prayers.

MATT GALLOWAY: What is that like, Lester, to know that there were people you've never met, and you may never meet, around the world who, because of what you were in, were behind you and where we're pulling for you?

LESTER QUIVES: Actually, I didn't know that at first. And then when I was transferred for recovery, that's the time I open my Facebook. And I was quite surprised by by the influx of prayers from persons who we do not know, people from other parts of the world who prayed for me. Oh, my! [chuckle] That's huge!

MATT GALLOWAY: [chuckle] You have a big smile on your face when you say that.

LESTER QUIVES: Of course, I was very thankful.

MATT GALLOWAY: We were talking about how you were intubated. There is the process as well of taking the tube out, the extubation. And Cristie-Mae, you posted a video when they extubated Lester the next day. Take a listen to this.

GIRL: Say I love you, Nana and Papa.

CHRISTIE-MAE QUIVES: [Speaking: Tagalog].

PAPA: [Speaking Tagalog]

MATT GALLOWAY: What are you saying to him, Cristie-Mae?

CHRISTIE-MAE QUIVES: Actually, I'm... because I'm saying there to his mom in the Philippines because I'm updating them all the time. So I'm saying to Nana, Mother, Lester doesn't have a tube anymore.

MATT GALLOWAY: What do you remember of of of waking up, Lester? I mean, I can't imagine... you're in a coma, having gone through all of this, and then you come out of it. What do you remember about that?

LESTER QUIVES: Actually, in so far as my memory is concerned, [chuckling] I was dreaming. And the day before my extubation, I was dreaming that I was on a farm with children dancing[ beginning to laugh] and there are lots of trees, it's not the forest, but it's a farm, just like country here in Canada. And then, a few weeks later, when I told my mom because she was asking me about my dreams, and they both have the same dream. Then, the next day, when they extubate me, I was feeling so weak when they took out the tube. I mean, the feeling was awful. My throat was hurting. But nevertheless, I was thankful because you know what? I could breathe on my own already, even though with the help of oxygen. Working in the hospital or in the care home, I know some of the side effects would be neurological, some would be physical. So I'm kind of worried about what's going to happen the next few months with my recovery, so I think I do have that faith that I can do this. I do have the determination and willpower. I have the support from family, from friends, from the community and definitely from my co-workers and even from the management, from the hospital where I worked and in the care home. In fact, that they visited me here. But of course, with social distancing measures, they totally surprised me with a parade. The support was just amazing. And I'm really, really happy for that.

MATT GALLOWAY: OK, I want to hear a little bit... because the parade is an amazing thing. I mean what you've gone through and your own strength in this, but the community, you talked about the people who are around you. This happens after you get home in late November. And then closer to Christmas, this unfolds.

CHRISTIE-MAE QUIVES: Hi!

LESTER QUIVES: Hello.

CHRISTIE-MAE QUIVES: Just put it there. I just got to grab it. [chuckling]

WOMAN: Merry Christmas!

CHRISTIE-MAE AND LESTER: Thank you very much.

[lots of honking from passing cars].

CHRISTIE-MAE QUIVES: Just careful, Love!

MATT GALLOWAY: Christie-Mae, what's going on there?

CHRISTIE-MAE QUIVES: Yeah, so the day before, they told me, they asked me if they can come over by, you know, they're going to honk their horns. And then I said, oh, how could I tell Lester, hey you have to go out and show yourself to your friends.

LESTER QUIVES: [In the video] Hello, Narib

CHRISTIE-MAE QUIVES: So if you... in the video, he's wearing shorts because he doesn't have any clue, actually. So when I told him, your friends... your friends are coming, and they're going to honk their horns. And then he said, Why you didn't tell me?!! [Matt and Christie-Mae laugh warmly]

CHRISTIE-MAE QUIVES:[in the video] Hey, don't cry! [laughs happily]. Oh, my goodness! Lester for mayor!! [laughing]

CHRISTIE-MAE QUIVES: So he managed to show... to show himself, you know, outside and waved to his friends. And I know he's very happy. And I'm very happy, too.

MATT GALLOWAY: Lester, what does that mean to you that people would do something like this?

LESTER QUIVES: It was very unexpected. Most of them are my closest friends, and they're not just co-workers. I consider them as my family. And doing that to me, I feel very special. [chuckling] Of course, it was cold. But then you know what? I don't feel the coldness because the warmth of welcoming me. The warmth of telling me that, hey, good job, you did it! You did it! That's just very overwhelming. I actually saw my manager, likewise, she was with the parade, and the nurses, the health care aides, they're very close to my heart.

MATT GALLOWAY: How do you understand what you've been through over the last few months? I mean, you've been to the brink and then back. How do you... how do you understand what you've been through, Lester?

LESTER QUIVES: Being from the brink of having COVID and then surpassing it, it came to the point that when I was in the hospital, I think physically, mentally, I was drained. I was praying to God that hopefully all the nurses, all the people that will take care of me, they will just be very good. And they are. They are amazing people. That's why I would say that the Canadian health care system is one of the best, I would say, if not one of the top most all over the world. Being here in Canada, I was just a lucky Canadian. And then going to my recovery, after my discharge, I'm very glad that my wife is very supportive. That is why in every man's failure or success, [Christie-Mae chuckles] there's a woman behind him, right? [Christie-Mae and Lester chuckle] That's the saying that goes. So we have a treadmill here in our house. And my wife was a respiratory therapist as well in the Philippines. So she knows a little bit of... she works in the department we're in doing rehabilitation. So that helped... that helped me. And then I have my oximeter, my pulse oximeter to monitor my oxygen. I have my spirometer in order for me to keep inhaling more air to expand my lungs. And I'm doing that consistently every day.

[Music: Karaoke track fades up]

MATT GALLOWAY: And some karaoke, too.

LESTER QUIVES: Karaoke.

LESTER QUIVES: [in a video] [singing] Take me to your heart. Show me where to start. I can play the part of your first love.

MATT GALLOWAY: Tell me about the karaoke. I mean, how important is that for... for you in your recovery.

LESTER QUIVES: During karaoke... I mean music is... I mean, I think music is the only activity that makes the whole brain works. I read that somewhere. I don't know. I'm no scientist or a neurologist, [chuckling] but then we have two hemispheres of the brain, right? So when they're in harmony and working together, there's a possibility or the chances of getting things done high. That is why... and I even noticed that when I'm singing before two weeks after I was discharged, when every time I'm singing, my oxygen... oxygen level goes up, and my heart rate goes down. I don't know. As Filipinos, we always love karaoke.

MATT GALLOWAY: Just before I let you go, we're calling this thing that we're doing as we kind of travel virtually across the country, we're calling it "Canada's Road Ahead". And we're talking about hope in some ways, and... and what people hope for in the road ahead. Christie-Mae, what does the future... when you think of hope and that road ahead, what does it look like for you?

CHRISTIE-MAE QUIVES: For me, right now... [deep sigh] It's a life full of mystery and hold on, because every day is a new life. Yeah, that's hope for me.

MATT GALLOWAY: Every day is a new life.

CHRISTIE-MAE QUIVES: Yeah.

MATT GALLOWAY: What about for you, Lester? Given what you've gone through? What does the road ahead look like for you, do you think? It made me realize that I have to spend more time with the family.

CHRISTIE-MAE QUIVES: Yeah, because we work to hard!

LESTER QUIVES: We work too hard! [laughing].

CHRISTIE-MAE QUIVES: And sometimes, we forgot that we have two kids waiting. [laughing] So I think, you know, that situation that we undergone, I realized that we need to have time for the kids, not just work, work, work and work. For us, right now, it's very important that first.

MATT GALLOWAY: You've both been through a lot. Lester, I'm glad that you're on the mend. The singing voice sounds strong, and it sounds like you're doing OK. And, Christie-Mae, thank you very much for what you have gone through and the way that you have supported Lester. And I really appreciate speaking with you both. Thanks a lot.

BOTH: You're welcome.

MATT GALLOWAY: Take care of yourselves. Bye-bye.

CHRISTIE-MAE QUIVES: Bye.

MATT GALLOWAY: Lester and Christie-Mae Quives are both health care workers who live in Steinbach, Manitoba. Coming up after the news, we'll stay in Steinbach and speak with two community leaders about how that city got through the second wave of COVID and how anti-lockdown rallies by some people there made that task all the more difficult. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to "The Current" on CBC Radio One.

[Music: Theme]

And lockdown protests in Steinbach, Man; Quebec’s Magpie River granted legal personhood

Guests: Kris Ontong, Earl Funk, Pier-Olivier Boudreault

MATT GALLOWAY: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. And you're listening to "The Current".

[Music: Theme]

MATT GALLOWAY: Still to come, legal rights for a river. We'll find out what that might mean for the Magpie River in Quebec. But first, we continue in Steinbach, Manitoba, and our series "Canada's Road Ahead".

[Music: Theme]

MATT GALLOWAY: Steinbach, Manitoba, was a hot spot of COVID infections last fall. And just before the news, we heard the story of health workers Lester and ChristieMae Quives. And how their co-workers and community help them cope when Lester came down with COVID himself. That community that they're part of is a growing one. In fact, Steinbach is one of the fastest-growing centres in Canada, thanks in part to a steady influx of immigrants from the Philippines. Kris Ontong is past president of the Southeast Manitoba Filipino Association, and he hosts a video podcast, it's called "Barangay Canada". Kris, good morning.

KRIS ONTONG: Good morning, Matt, and thanks for having me here.

MATT GALLOWAY: Tell me about the community, the Filipino community, and how in particular it's been hit by COVID? Because we know that Steinbach itself has been hit by COVID.

KRIS ONTONG: Well, here in Steinbach, there's roughly 3,000 Filipinos who call the city their home. The best way to describe it is how... how all of those Filipino immigrants are distributed according to where they work, you know? So as you know, Lester, it's just a representative of a huge chunk of the Filipino immigrant population here who work in the health care sector. And the rest are distributed among the different factories and farms, and barns. So the way... the way the Filipino community has been affected is almost the same as the rest of the local community. So we're all in the same storm, but in different boats. And what... what separates us from from the others is... is our unique culture. And, as we've seen from Lester's experience, what helped him in his recovery [chuckling] was to, you now, do a lot of karaoke. [laughing] And that raised his oxygen levels for some reason. And that's... that's pretty common. It's stereotypical, and it's true. And for the grown-ups who have experienced this... this pandemic, this COVID-19 pandemic. Of course, they been affected by the loss of jobs, the cutback in hours. So it's been a challenge, but it's not so much it didn't affect their mental health so much because we have this unique I would call it unfair advantage because there was a similar outbreak that happened back in the early 2000s, as we know, Matt, the SARS outbreak and the bird flu outbreak. That was right at our doorstep back in the Philippines. So back then, we were bombarded with images of Hong Kong city dwellers. They were all wearing face masks. So we're used to that.

MATT GALLOWAY: Hmmm.

KRIS ONTONG: As far as the physical disconnection is concerned, well, we're immigrants. We're used to be... we're used to being physically disconnected from... from our loved ones because we're so far away here in Canada, and we're known to be very close to our extended family. And we also known to be very social media savvy. [laughing] So what we do is we just fall back on... on social media and video calling to, you know, keep in touch with our family back in the Philippines.

MATT GALLOWAY: Let me bring one more voice into our conversation, just to talk in many ways more broadly about how the city responded. Earl Funk is the mayor of Steinbach, and the owner of Earl's Meat Market on Main Street. Mr. Mayor, good morning to you.

EARL FUNK Good morning.

MATT GALLOWAY: How would you characterize how your city has been affected by this pandemic? There was a spike in cases last fall, and we heard about people coming together. But... but many people in your city were lost to the virus. How would you characterize what happened to... to your town?

EARL FUNK Well, we... we are mourning with... with every resident that is also mourning loss. We lost 45 residents to COVID. And we... we feel for them, and we mourn with them as... as they are mourning their... their loved ones. How we were affected? I mean, our numbers just skyrocketed, and it was... it was out of control. And we were at 40 per cent positivity testing rate. And from city hall, we just made out... we just made a plea to our... to our residents. And we just asked them to... to consider and follow the restrictions that were there. And we were just amazed by the support we had from our community. They just stepped up to the plate. We've gone from... from 40 per cent to the one of the worst rates in Canada to where we are now. In the last four weeks, we've had one case. And I'm so proud of our community. And I just want to speak to the... to the Filipino community. We just... we just love and embrace them. We just are so thankful that they have chosen Steinbach to to come and to immigrate to... to our community. I think they share a lot of the same values we have, hard work, and family, and just generally looking after the community. And that was one thing that I did as mayor, I just I kept going on... on the the Steinbach Online and on the radio and and in in the media. I just kept asking our residents to check up on your neighbours. It's something me and my wife did. We went... we would take a Sunday afternoon and we would just go knock on doors and stand back, stand on the driveway and so that we were distanced properly and just make sure everyone was OK.

MATT GALLOWAY: Let me ask you just a bit more just about the community reaction because one of the things we heard out of the town was about some of the churches that were resisting lockdown measures in the community. How difficult was it to get the community on board, to... to play by some of the public health rules?

EARL FUNK Well, I want to qualify that because many of the churches that were resisting were churches that were in the area, but not necessarily in our community, not necessarily in the city of Steinbach limits. So I think it was relatively easy to get the community on board. And it shows. I mean, with how hard they worked and how the numbers went down, it really showed that they... that they worked hard at it. And they were... they were committed to bringing the... bringing the numbers down, getting this under control.

MATT GALLOWAY: But there were also rallies where people were opposing the health measures that were in place. And again, those were happening in the town itself. I mean, how... how do you understand that protest?

EARL FUNK Well, I want to qualify that by saying that the organizers of these rallies were from outside our community. Now, I'm not saying that there weren't some... some demographics of our community that were there. Some... some definitely were there from our community. But for the most part, they were from outside the community. And when, for example, the Saturday that the... the car rally, the anti-mask care rally was going on, as they were driving down our roads, our streets, our MLA was... he just had posted on Facebook that he was going to the E.R. with some Tim Hortons gift certificates and coffee for the E.R. staff. Well, that started just a chain reaction. And... and everyone was messaging him and... and donating more money. And... and before he knew it, there was, like, I think 7,000 dollars was raised to give to our E.R. workers that were overwhelmed. Like, even when I was talking with... with the... the E.R. workers, the charge nurse at the time, she said she's been in the E.R. for seven years in Steinbach. And Friday, that Friday, was her absolute worst day. They were treating patients in their vehicles; they were so full. And... and they were just overwhelmed to tears that we would... that the community would would band behind them like this and show their support.

MATT GALLOWAY: When you see that, when people are being treated, you know, in their cars because the hospital is overwhelmed and there is real division... I mean, you'd admit that there was real division with people who were not feeling comfortable with the public health measures, who felt that it was an imposition, who didn't want to wear masks, who didn't want a social distance. What's the role of yourself as a mayor when... when the community is divided and opposing what you're trying to do?

EARL FUNK Well, and you're right. And it's bringing people together and just keep asking them to.. to consider their neighbour, right? And I do believe that they did. When you look at the the second rally, there was maybe 60 to 100 people there. It was almost a non-event, you know, because I think what's happened is people started... the residents started considering their... their neighbour. And... and I think that changed their view. We're not doing this for myself. I'm wearing the mask for you.

MATT GALLOWAY: Kris, how do you... how do you see that? I mean, in terms of, again, a story of people coming together, but not everybody is onside.

KRIS ONTONG: I guess it goes back to my... my earlier explanation that it's... it has something to do with with our background and our culture. A lot of... a lot of... a lot of the Filipino immigrants have friends or even have family who are working in the health care sector. I myself have four cousins who are working as nurses here in Canada. So... so that's... I think that sets us apart from from from the local community because of that unique characteristic of our culture. And we have no problems with, you know, understanding how dangerous this... this... this disease is.

MATT GALLOWAY: Is that what it took, Earl Funk, is for people in some ways to see how dangerous this disease could be before they fell in line with some of the public health guidelines?

EARL FUNK For some people, it could have because we've never... we didn't have the opportunity to... to deal with SARS or the, you know, the... The avian flu, those kinds of things. This is really, to our generation, this was the first time we've come into a pandemic. And... and that could definitely be, you know, why we fell behind at first. But once we saw the... we saw the numbers, and we saw what was happening. And there were... there were families suffering with loved ones that were sick and also, you know, passing away. I think that's when the community start to rally around each other.

MATT GALLOWAY: When I ask you the question that I asked earlier about the road ahead, Lester and Christie-Mae, we're talking about what they see as the future for themselves, having gone through what they went through. What about for your town, Earl Funk? What do you see as the road ahead for Steinbach?

EARL FUNK Well, yeah, that's a really good question. And what we're doing as council is we're looking... we're looking forward to projects. We're looking forward at projects to bring the community together. To build a 42-and-a-half-million dollar event centre for our community and put it in the downtown to draw... to draw people together. Because we realize that post-covid, we'll be able to meet again. There will be a time when we'll be able to meet and have large numbers. And so we are... we are committed to to building an event centre that will give our community some hope and something to look forward to.

MATT GALLOWAY: What about for you, Kris? I mean, you take a look at what you've been through and what your community has been through. What is that road ahead for you?

KRIS ONTONG: Well, I'm optimistic that the road ahead would be, now that we have the vaccine, that we're on the way to recovery as a community and as a country. But we just have to be mindful of the learnings that we have encountered along the way. The case of Lester is a reality check for a lot of us here in the community of Steinbach. Up to that point, we were just, you know, we were just hearing it in the news until Lester's case happened. It was publicized to that extent. So when that happened, a lot of people, their minds were blown and then it just hit home that this... this can happen to them as well.

MATT GALLOWAY: It's great to speak with you both. And I wish you the best for your town. And hopefully, that new normal, as you say, is better than the old normal. Khris, thank you very much.

KRIS ONTONG: Thank you very much, Matt. Thanks for having me.

MATT GALLOWAY: Earl Funk, thank you very much as well.

EARL FUNK Thank you very much. Yes, it was great to be here.

MATT GALLOWAY: Take care. Bye-bye.

EARL FUNK Bye-bye.

MATT GALLOWAY: Earl Funk is the mayor of Steinbach, Manitoba, and the owner of a local meat market in town. Kris Ontong is an advocate for the Filipino community in Steinbach, and is the host of the "Barangay Canada" video podcast.

[Music: Industrial beat]

MATT GALLOWAY: You're listening to "The Current" on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway. [people scream and cheer, water rushes] Now, I'm more of a flatwater paddler myself, but this morning, grabbing my life jacket because we're about to hit the rapids of the Magpie River.

[the sounds of the water and the cheering intensify]

DANNY PELED The Magpie has incredible scenery. I think the first time I went down the Magpie, and it's the same for other people who experience it, is you're struck by how steep and dramatic the terrain is. Like, it really feels like you're in the mountains. You're surrounded by cliffs and steep hills that are covered in boreal forest. The scenery at the start of the rafting section is really, really unique because you have these open patches of, like, tundra-like vegetation mixed in with the forest. So then, of course, you have the rapids. [cheers] So the river is really, really fun, and it's non-stop. So it's like almost non-stop rapids where you have fun rapids and then moving water for a short duration until you get to the next rapid. So it's really fun river to raft.

MATT GALLOWAY: That's Danny Peled, owner of Boreal River Adventures. He runs tours down the Magpie River. The Magpie has been called a whitewater rafting jewel, the Mona Lisa of Rivers. And National Geographic puts it in the top 10 whitewater rivers in the world, the Magpie or Moteskikan Hipu, as it's known to the Innu who have lived along it for centuries, runs from the Labrador border south about 200 kilometres. Lydia Mestokosho-Paradis is an Innu cultural adviser for Boreal River, and a cultural agent at the Innu Cultural Centre in Eukanitshit.

LYDIA MESTOKOSHO-PARADIS: The river, Moteskikan Hipu, is very important for the people of Eukanitshit because it's like their house. It's like a beautiful river that you can drink water, and the river can give you food, fish. And when I'm on the river, it's like some vacation. It's like time to think about my life. Think about the life that the elders used to live. It's to make them proud. It's my identity, my Innu identity, to show this to the future generation. So it's like I have to continue that we are using the river and we protect her. We living with her. We are, like, it's like we become one with the river. You drink the river, you spend time with her like... but you have to live like her rule, not mine.

MATT GALLOWAY: Last month, the Inuit Council of Eukanitshit, and the regional municipality of Minganie adopted resolutions to recognize that she, the river, has rights. It's a recognition that could thwart future plans to develop the river and harness those rapids for hydroelectric power. Pier-Olivia Boudreault is the director of conservation for the Canadian Parks and Wilderness Society's Quebec Division. He coordinated the society's Magpie protection campaign, and joins us now. Good morning.

PIER-OLIVER BOUDREAULT: Good morning, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: It's a beautiful part of the country. We heard a little bit about that. But just briefly, how important is the river to people in this region?

PIER-OLIVER BOUDREAULT: Yes, I think you heard the Lydia's word that the importance for the Innu is... is there. That's been explained pretty well. [chuckle] Better than I can do myself. But I want to also mention that for the people of Minganie, the Magpie River, you mentioned, it's an international jewel. It's been recognized across the world for whitewater activities. And there's a will to, of course, to protect the river, but also to benefit from its development under probably more under an ecotourism point of view. The... the... if you think about this region, the Minganie region is 70,000 square kilometres of region, it's as big as Ireland. And there are other jewels apart from the Magpie River, you have Anticosti Island, which is a candidate site for UNESCO World Heritage site. You have... very close by you have Lake Walker, which is the deepest lake in Quebec. So it's a region that is, you know, that has a very, very high potential for outdoor tourism.

MATT GALLOWAY: So what does it mean to recognize that a river has legal rights? What does that actually mean?

PIER-OLIVER BOUDREAULT: Yes, well, it's really it's really a paradigm shift because, I mean, before last week, the Magpie River didn't have any existence in our legal system. So, it's... in environmental law, nature is normally just an object that humans can exploit at their pleasure. Now, we're really recognizing that the river has its own rights and that we're part of the ecosystem. And the resolutions that you mentioned earlier, they call for nine rights to be recognized for the river. Rights, such as the right to flow, the right to respect for its cycles, but also, very importantly, the right to... the right to take legal action. So that's really a big difference now. And of course, since the river cannot talk, at least in front of courts, the resolutions call for guardians to be nominated to speak on behalf of the river if any threat would be... you know, threat to its rights would come eventually.

MATT GALLOWAY: Well, and the threats... I mean, people say the threats are real. We contacted Hydro-Quebec, and they told us we have no plans for Magpie in the short or medium-term, but in the long-term, we do not know what Quebec's future energy needs will be. Right now, we don't consider it responsible in terms of Quebec's energy security to permanently renounce the potential of this river. Why shouldn't the Magpie be considered for its hydro potential in future?

PIER-OLIVER BOUDREAULT: There are many reasons. The first I think we've... we've explored the fact that it's... it's an international jewel. I think... I mean, we're not opposed to hydro development, at least at Sea Pals. But the Magpie river is something different. And so, yes, it's a river that's... that's recognized internationally. But also, the Minganie region as also and the North Shore region more globally has given up a lot of rivers. There are many, many rivers that have been damed. Most recently, maybe people heard about the Roman Development Project, which is a very large hydro development project. And when this project was made, there was a public consultation. And the conclusion of the public consultation was that if the Roman Project, which is, by the way, very close to the Magpie River, it's just a river. So if the development of the Roman would go forward, there would need to be another river, a similar river would need to be protected. And so that's the Magpie River. You know, it's a matter of balance. You cannot dam every single river. In the world, if you look globally, there are over 800,000 dams on our rivers. So, at some point, we've got to start thinking, well, maybe there are some rivers that need to be protected and that need to remain natural. So... so that's the point here with the Magpie River. It's... it's not any river. And that's why we've been working the last 10 years to protect it from hydro development.

MATT GALLOWAY: Just let me.... in the last two minutes that we have, let me ask you two quick questions. One is, is there any other precedent in terms of, you know, humanizing, in some ways, a river? The river has been given personhood. Is there any precedent in the world for doing something like this?

PIER-OLIVER BOUDREAULT: Of course, we're part of an international movement that is growing. We're the first case in Canada, which is awesome. But there are many other cases, there are many other mechanisms to recognize the rights of nature. If you think in New Zealand, which is probably one of the most famous, the Whanganui River was recognized as legal personhood through an agreement between the government and First Nations there. In Ecuador, the rights of nature were recognized in the Constitution. In Colombia, the Atrato River was recognized by the courts as a legal person. So it's really we're part of an international movement here, and we're part of a change in society where rivers and ecosystems are becoming, you now real entities in our legal system.

MATT GALLOWAY: You paddled it last summer?

PIER-OLIVER BOUDREAULT: Yes.

MATT GALLOWAY: What was that like?

PIER-OLIVER BOUDREAULT: [laughing] Yeah, after 10 years trying to protect the river, I had the chance to paddle it. It's really... you heard the words from Danny. It's... it's an amazing expedition. It's... it's the only place in Quebec where you can have a rafting, multi-day rafting expedition. You're in the heart of the wilderness. You... you experience a lot of rapids. And what's really nice, I didn't have any particular whitewater experience. I was in a raft, and I was able to go down the river. And it's not only about rapids, it's about camping there, being in total wilderness. And it's... it's really a life-changing experience. And that's what kept me working on this campaign for... for like more than 10 years now. It's the love and the... the testimonies of the people, you know, share when they come back from the Magpie River. It's an amazing river.

MATT GALLOWAY: And do you call the river her? I mean, it's... we heard it referred to as she. So is that how you refer to the river?

PIER-OLIVER BOUDREAULT: I mean, as a biologist, I refer to the river as a... as a living entity. Not as necessarily as a living being. I mean, First Nations have different conceptions of rivers.

MATT GALLOWAY: Yeah.

PIER-OLIVER BOUDREAULT: And we so do we. It's important to know that, I mean, we declared the rights of the river. You know, it's not the rights of a human being. It's the right of a river. You know, The right to flow, that kind of thing. So it's important to. But the parallel is that now, as a... as a human being or even as a corporation, the river now has a legal existence, right?

MATT GALLOWAY: It's a beautiful part of this country. And now protected in a way that I think a lot of people perhaps will find intriguing. Pier-Olivier, we'll leave it there. Thank you very much.

PIER-OLIVER BOUDREAULT: Thank you for the invitation.

MATT GALLOWAY: Pier-Olivier Boudreault is the director of conservation at the Quebec branch of Canadian Parks and Wilderness Society, talking about the Magpie River in Quebec. Your regional update is next. And then, a landmark case in Germany, the first conviction of a member of Bashar al-Assad's regime in Syria. I'll tell you more about it coming up in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway. This is "The Current".

[Music: Theme]

And former Syrian intelligence agent’s conviction may change things

Guests: Mai El-Sadany, Wafa Mustafa, Bill Wiley

MATT GALLOWAY: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to "The Current". Last week, a German court convicted a former Syrian intelligence officer for complicity in crimes against humanity involving the torture of people in Syria. This is the world's first conviction of state-sponsored torture against a member of Bashar al-Assad's regime. Many Syrian and human rights activists around the world hope that it's the first of many more to come. They're calling on other countries to follow Germany's lead in taking legal action against members of the Assad regime. Mai El-Sadany is a human rights lawyer and the legal and judicial director at the Tahrir Institute for Middle East Policy in Washington, D.C. Mai, good morning.

MAI EL-SADANY: Good morning.

MATT GALLOWAY: Just give us a few more details about the case against this former Syrian intelligence officer. What was the case?

MAI EL-SADANY: Sure. So this case involves torture that was committed by the Syrian general intelligence shortly following the revolution and following Syrians peacefully taking to the streets in 2011. We saw a repressive wave by the Assad regime against peaceful protesters. This particular case focuses on violations that took place at a directorate known as Branch 251 in Damascus. And it actually involved two defendants, one who is a higher level defendant who remains on trial. His trial is ongoing, and his name is Anwar R and the second who was convicted last week, Eyad A, who's the lower level defendant. Eyad A specifically was accused of aiding and abetting crimes against humanity. And ultimately, sentenced to four-and-a-half years, particularly. The case looked at his involvement in the abduction and torture of at least 30 people in 2011. So that's that's kind of the context here. The higher-level perpetrator's, just to give you a perspective, is accused of overseeing the torture of at least 4,000 people at this branch, some of which actually resulted in their death. And ss well as counts of rape and aggravated sexual assault.

MATT GALLOWAY: Why is this trial held in Germany? I mean, the defendant isn't German. The Crimes didn't happen in Germany. So why Germany?

MAI EL-SADANY: There's this international legal concept called universal jurisdiction. And the idea there is that some crimes that occur around the world are so egregious that any country in the international system has an incentive to prosecute those crimes in order to curb impunity and really send a message that crimes like this are unacceptable. They harm the stability of the international system. And so, any country that's a leader in this space has an incentive to curb those crimes and to bring them to a halt. And so this concept, universal jurisdiction, allows a country like Germany that has no direct tie-in to the perpetrator, to the victim to pursue these types of prosecutions.

MATT GALLOWAY: And is there something about Germany that... that compelled it to act first in some ways, in this way?

MAI EL-SADANY: Germany is one of the most pure, quote/unquote, forms of universal jurisdiction. So the idea in universal jurisdiction is that countries can apply it into their domestic legislation to varying degrees. So there are some countries in Europe, for example, that would require a territorial link or a national link or that the perpetrator lives on land or that the victim is now a resident of the country. Germany has the most pure form of universal jurisdiction as we know it today. And so it's no surprise, really, that Germany is a leader in this space. There's a significant Syrian population in Germany that have engaged with prosecutors, with the legal system. Germany has something called a structural investigation which allows it to investigate crimes that happened in Syria more broadly. So there are a number of factors, really, that make those of us in the international legal community not surprised that Germany is a leader here.

MATT GALLOWAY: How much weight do you think this is going to carry internationally and and in Syria as well?

MAI EL-SADANY: I think it's quite symbolic and significant. It's the first case of its type, and so it may encourage other cases to proceed to trial. There are tens of cases that have been filed, complaints across Europe by Syrian advocates and international legal advocates. Most of them are in the complaint phase. And I'm talking just about cases involving the Assad regime. I'm not talking here about ISIS cases or other cases. But focussing on the cases involving the Assad regime. There are... there are tens that have already been filed, but they're sort of at that investigative phase. And so I think this case creates a bit of momentum and may encourage other cases to be brought to trial. I think it also gives a lot of impetus to organizations, Syrian organizations and otherwise, that has been collecting and doing documentation work for years now. This is the fruit of their labour, if you will, and I think that will draw attention to their efforts to create a reinvestment in their... in those movements. And also, reinvestment in the international legal system. I think things like this happen every once in a while, but they remind us why systems like this exist and why they can be so powerful.

MATT GALLOWAY: Mai stay with us. I want to bring another guest into our conversation. Wafa Mustafa is a Syrian journalist and activist now living in Berlin. And she held vigils outside of the courthouse in Coblenz, Germany, during this trial, accompanied by photographs of 61 people who have disappeared in Syria, including her father. Wafa Mustafa, hello to you.

WAFA MUSTAFA: Hello there.

MATT GALLOWAY: Tell me about your father and why he was detained?

WAFA MUSTAFA: Well, yes, my dad's name is Ali Mustafa, and he's turning 59 soon in May, and he's been disappeared, forcibly disappeared, since the second of July 2013. And it happened that way while he was in our place in Damascus. He was alone at home, and my mom was travelling from my hometown, Masyaf, western Syria, to Damascus to visit him. And... and 15 minutes before she arrives, she calls him and then she says that I'll be there in 15. He goes, everything is perfect. I cleaned the house, and I'm just waiting for you. And then 15 minutes later, my mom arrives and calls my dad, and then he never responds. The only information we learned was from the neighbour, who said that a group of armed men attacked our place and that she heard noises and that, you know, after a while they went downstairs with my dad and another person who turned out to be my dad's best friend, whose family was told unfortunately a while ago that he was killed under torture. But that was the last time we heard from my dad. And, unfortunately, we are deprived of any information about his fate and whereabouts.

MATT GALLOWAY: You held this vigil outside the courthouse, as I mentioned, with these photographs of people, including your father. Why was it important for you to do that?

WAFA MUSTAFA: Well, I mean, to be honest, it started this way when I learned that when the trial kicked off on the 23rd of April, it was... it was a very emotional moment for me. And the only thing... the only thing that I had in mind is that I wish my dad was here to witness this moment. And then I thought, OK, then maybe I should go with my dad to visit the court and to witness this moment. And I mean, somehow I treat my dad's picture that I have beside my bed as... As some kind of like a physical manifestation of his soul. And then I talk to a girl that I was working with called Families for Freedom. And we thought, OK, let's bring other people's photos to this moment, so we make sure that they are not forgotten. And to make sure that the international community who's looking at this moment and this specific place now do not think that this crime is in the past. And to remind... to remind them that this is still ongoing and that these people still need to be saved.

MATT GALLOWAY: Mai was talking about the significance of this verdict. To you, what does it mean? I mean, is it... is it some degree of justice and accountability?

WAFA MUSTAFA: I mean, to be honest, I mean, this is a very tough question. This is the question I believe that all Syrians are dealing with recently. I've never... I've never lived, I've never practiced any form of justice, freedom or democracy. So this is the moment that we are seeing some kind... some form of what is called justice. So I believe that this is the first step and this is why we wanted to be engaged in our own way. We believe that this might be helpful. This is definitely very important. Seeking accountability is definitely important, but it does not help building a future and achieving justice for Syrians and for Syria if it stops there and do not work on the crime that is still ongoing inside Syria today.

MATT GALLOWAY: Tell me more about that. I mean, a decade into this civil war, what do you want from the international community? Just a couple of days ago, you addressed the U.N. General Assembly about this. What do you want the international community to do?

WAFA MUSTAFA: Well, let me just say that first, what started in Syria 10 years ago was a revolution, a peaceful revolution. People like my dad and millions participated in demanding the basic human rights that everyone has and that everyone actually has the right to practice. And it started as a revolution, of course, in Syria. Today, we have a war, a war led by the Syrian regime against civilians. We have a war between foreign policies using Syria as an arena to play their struggles. But I believe that my concern is, to be honest, that today, when we talk about accountability, and that was actually my main concern when I addressed the U.N. General Assembly two days ago, you know, like every... every single state was talking about the importance of accountability and that finally the international community found some kind of solution or a way to help Syrians. And this is not true. I believe that my concern is that the international community is using this trial and this forms of accountability as an alternative to their failure in dealing with Russia and its power and its veto and its involvement in Syria. And I believe that they should... I mean, we've repeated this for years and years now. There should be a comprehensive solution to what's going on in Syria. The international community must pressure Assad, the regime and all other actors in the country to release detainees, to stop unlawful detention and enforced disappearance and to stop using torture against those who are in detention centres. If any solution do not start with that, it will not be sustainable and it will not be convincing or satisfying or it will... we will not see it as a solution in the first place. If it does not guarantee that.

MATT GALLOWAY: Mai El-Sadany, why aren't these cases being addressed by the U.N. Security Council or being held in front of international bodies like the ICC, the International Criminal Court?

MAI EL-SADANY: Sure, so Syria is not a Rome Party... Is not a statute to the Rome Party. And normally, that's the traditional way to get to the ICC. However, there is an alternate way, and that is referral through the U.N. Security Council. Unfortunately, like Wafa was alluding to, Russia and China sit on the Security Council, and they had vetoed all attempts to get the trial to the International Criminal Court. They would similarly stand in the way of creating a hybrid tribunal. And so here we find ourselves kind of polishing up this older principle of universal jurisdiction in an attempt to seek justice in other fora. And that's how we got to this German court.

MATT GALLOWAY: Do you see the opportunity? I mean, the understanding is that there are other Syrian officials who are living openly elsewhere in Europe. Could they be... find themselves having their cases pursued in light of what happened in Germany?

MAI EL-SADANY: I think absolutely. What the significance of this case is that it is the first, but like Wafa was saying, it can't stand alone. And so, even when you're looking at other cases, this needs to be the beginning of many. There's no way we're going to prosecute every single Assad regime official. Unfortunately, the numbers are too great. And that's not really the purpose of why Syrian advocates are at the helm of this movement. It is to send a strong and unwavering message to the Assad regime and those that remain in power that they cannot hide and that impunity cannot be the rule of the game. And so pursuing a number of cases like this may help achieve that. But again, it needs to occur in this larger context. And so prosecutions are one way to do so. And I very much expect to see other cases begin to go to trial in other countries. However, they need to be accompanied by all the political factors Wafa was referencing, but also by a number of other accountability steps as well, right? Justice is not achieved just in the courtroom. There are factfinding initiatives, memorialization, the proper recording of history as we watch Syria and see their own erasure of the revolution. All of these things are part and parcel of what it means to realize justice. And I think the more we talk to Syrian family members, survivors of this regime, the more and more the international community can put together a really comprehensive form of justice that addresses the different needs of the Syrian population.

MATT GALLOWAY: And Wafa, just finally, are you optimistic in that, as Mai says, that the more we talk about this, the more that it is spoken about, the more pressure is put on the international community?

WAFA MUSTAFA: I mean, definitely. I addressed the UN Security Council last July. And I addressed the U.N. General Assembly two days ago. And I am... every time I do that and I talk to like to to Russia, and I hear China and those who are mainly involved in Syria, I feel very frustrated because I am faced I'm confronted by this ugly reality of the fact that there is no political will to change the situation in Syria. But do I have other option but keep talking and keep keep telling my story iand my dad's story and that of of millions of Syrians? Unfortunately, I do not. And I'll keep doing this till one day they'll have to listen to us and do something about us.

MATT GALLOWAY: I really appreciate speaking with you this morning, Wafa. Thank you very much.

WAFA MUSTAFA: Thank you.

MATT GALLOWAY: And Mai, thank you very much.

MAI EL-SADANY: Of course. Thank you.

MATT GALLOWAY: Mai El-Sadany is a human rights lawyer with the Tahrir Institute for Middle East Policy. Wafa Mustafa is a Syrian journalist and activist living in Germany. Any future cases against Syrian officials will be based on a treasure trove of Syrian documents. The files detail the inner workings of the Assad regime and its human rights abuses. Over the past decade, millions of those files have been smuggled out of Syria, and getting those documents has been a dangerous and complicated mission executed by a large team of activists. Bill Wiley leads those efforts. He is founder of the Commission for International Justice and Accountability. Bill, good morning to you.

BILL WILEY: Good morning.

MATT GALLOWAY: How important were those documents in building this case that we've been talking about and the case against the other defendant currently facing trial in Germany?

BILL WILEY: You could scarcely bring a case against anyone with any rank in the West without access to material.

MATT GALLOWAY: How difficult and dangerous was it to collect this material in the midst of a civil war as brutal as we know as it is?

BILL WILEY: It's certainly been a very time-consuming enterprise, very dangerous, very expensive because of the risks involved. We've been at it for since late 2012. So it's been an ongoing process. But we have had some men hurt and one killed in the effort.

MATT GALLOWAY: Why do people... I mean, I said that this is a team of activists, given those dangers and given what they're up against, why do those activists see this as so important?

BILL WILEY: Well, I think one of your earlier guests put it... put it well. I mean, there's a thirst amongst the Syrian population for... for for justice in response to the egregious offences that have been perpetrated since 2011 and indeed before 2011 by... by the Syrian regime.

MATT GALLOWAY: And... and the documents reveal what specifically?

BILL WILEY: Well, what the documents point to on the face of it, any one given document is generally a piece of anodyne or relatively anodyne bureaucracy. But the materials are drawn from political, military and security intelligence facilities. And we employ quite a few Arabic fluent analysts. And effectively, what we do is we rebuild and have rebuilt over time the perpetrating structures of the Syrian state within a special focus on security intelligence structures. And... and because our understanding of the structures overall and also when you get down to specific branches, Branch 251, where were the men convicted last week served, once you have that structure in place, as long as you can put the suspect or your target into one of those structures, even though you haven't tied them, let's say, to the physical perpetration of offences by their own hands, it's a relatively straightforward matter to... to secure a conviction.

MATT GALLOWAY: And so in.... and we heard this from Mai and also from Wafa, in the larger sweep of the efforts to try to find justice and hold the Syrian regime account, how important was this trial, but also the verdict that was revealed?

BILL WILEY: Well, I concur with your earlier guests completely. It is an immensely important outcome. In the greater scheme of things, the man convicted is or was and nobody within within this archipelago of persecution subordinate to ultimately to President Assad of Syria. But symbolically, because it is the first conviction anywhere before a properly constituted court of a Syrian state security official, it has immense symbolic value in a justice context. But it's also a politically important outcome. If I could put it... put it that way. It's, I think, important for your listeners to understand that Russia is working extremely hard to try to rehabilitate the Syrian regime in the eyes of the international community and also in the eyes of the West. And they're trying to do that for two reasons. First, Syria needs to be rebuilt. And secondly, Russia needs to get out of Syria because it's harming its broader relationship with with the West. And as long as these convictions are progressing in this way, one... one last week. In a few months, the much more serious accused of the first man convicted will be assuredly convicted. And there's other cases that we're working with domestic authorities on that are in the pipe and will be brought to trial over the coming year and two years and three years. So this drip-feed of, if you will, bad news for... for Russia and for Damascus that highlights the criminality of Damascus, Russia's ally, is going to make it very, very difficult politically for... for Russia to rehabilitate the Syrian government.

MATT GALLOWAY: Mai hinted at this a little bit, but what do you make of Germany and Germany taking the lead in this?

BILL WILEY: Well, I wrote to... I wrote to our German colleagues on the day of the judgement once it was out to express my congratulations. Because first and foremost, the German authorities took the leadership here. And what, you know, all credit to them, I think, is the first point. And the second point is also, you know, Germany is, as your listeners will know, has a very unique history. The crimes of the Nazi regime were... the Holocaust and so forth, were executed in the name of the German people. And so Germany most especially takes its responsibilities to bring perpetrators of these heinous offences in their midst to... to justice. And it's important also to keep in mind, in my opinion, that you have roughly one million Syrians living... living as refugees in Germany. And, you know, it's a question, what sort of neighbours do Germans want to next door? Do you want a war criminal next door? And, of course... of course, that's... they don't.

MATT GALLOWAY: This is hard work and dangerous work, as you have articulated as well. And you've been at this for a long time. What is it that keeps you going in this? What's driving you in this work?

BILL WILEY: Well, the pithy answer is I've been doing the work for 24 years, and I don't have any other skill set. But more broadly, I... you know, I... well, I generally don't like to speak personally, but I do believe the work's important. It's certainly intellectually engaging, but it offers a form of moral engagement that... that I've always found and continue to find extremely rewarding.

MATT GALLOWAY: What do you think justice looks in this... looks like in this? I mean, again, Wafa was struggling with how to get justice in the absence of justice and how to find accountability. What does it look like for you?

BILL WILEY: I tend to defer to Syrians on this matter. I've worked in... over the years and a lot of different war zones. But ultimately, I've come to accept that justice is highly symbolic when you're dealing with a situation like Syria where you have a great many victims and a great many perpetrators. So if we can... if we can achieve these symbolic victories on a consistent basis, with a bit of luck, I think there's a reasonable prospect that whilst we won't get at the inner circle of Assad, we will get Assad before a court within a reasonable time frame. So, you know, one... one... one accepts the realm or works within the realm of the possible in a situation such as this.

MATT GALLOWAY: Thanks for the work that you're doing, and it's great to talk to you about it, Bill. Thank you.

BILL WILEY: No, thank you.

MATT GALLOWAY: Bill Wiley is the founder of the Commission for International Justice and Accountability. That's it for "The Current" for this morning. Coming up next on CBC Radio One, it's "q". We wanted to end this morning's program with some music from the Orchestra of Syrian Musicians featuring the American musician Julia Holter. This is a fascinating story. The orchestra was formed by refugees who were formerly part of the Syrian National Orchestra. And now, because of the civil war that we've been talking about, are scattered in cities across the globe. They came together for a fundraising concert back in 2016 and created an album from that live performance. And from that this is their take on Holter's song "Feel You". I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to "The Current". Take care and we will talk to you tomorrow.

Back To Top »

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

March 4, 2021 Episode Transcript

More Stories Like This