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The AIH Transcript for February 25, 2021

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

PETER ARMSTRONG: Hello, I'm Peter Armstrong, sitting in for Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music:Theme]

CH: Tonight:

PA: Policing while black. After top brass shot down the request to talk about racism on the job, four black officers in Ontario go public, including one who tells us about being racially profiled by his own white colleagues.

CH: No charges. A grand jury won't indict the Rochester police officers who pinned a black man to the ground until he stopped breathing, a decision that's left a community reeling and his family outraged.

PA: Status Cuomo. A former New York Capitol staffer, says allegations of sexual harassment against Governor Andrew Cuomo show not much has changed since she was working in state government more than five years ago.

CH: Playing it by smear. Amnesty International says it will no longer call Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny a prisoner of conscience. And a journalist accuses the rights organisation of caving to a smear campaign.

PA: Subconscious effort. An animator brings people seriously weird pandemic dreams to life and hopes to shed light on the questions they raise, like what's with all the lizards?

CH: And, that's what happens when you do nothing but inhale. After a recent software update, Roomba owners say their robot vacuums are acting dazed and disoriented, and it's not clear when they'll clean up their act. As It Happens, the Thursday edition, radio that guesses they'll be collecting dust before they're back to collecting dust.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Black Police Officers

Black Police Officers

Guest: Neil Dixon

CH: They didn't get anywhere with the top brass, so they went public. Last night four black officers with Ontario's York Regional Police opened up at a civilian police board meeting. They told raw personal stories of antiblack racism they'd faced on the job, from racial slurs, to microaggressions, to lost career opportunities. For Constable Neil Dixon. It was an incident in 2018 that left him with PTSD. Two white officers detained Constable Nixon while he was in plain clothes and refused to believe him when he told them he was their colleague. We reached Constable Neil Dixon in Shelburn, Ontario.

PA: Constable Dixon, what was the message that you were trying to send last night to these police board members?

NEIL DIXON: The message I was trying to send to the board last night and to the organization is for them to understand that as black members, there's a lot of things that are going on in the organization as it relates to antiblack racism, systemic racism, the impact of the trauma that officers feel on a daily basis, like for myself and the other three officers who came forward. And I know there's even more, but they're just afraid to come forward. But there are many like myself, who want to come forward or want changes within the organization. And that we need that change from them if we're going to live up to our values of professionalism, compassion, fairness, courage and respect, and that's the message I wanted to convey, that the impact to myself is enormous. You know, the anxiety, the depression, the sleepless nights and the thoughts that comes to mind sometimes. I wanted to convey to them the impact of these systemic antiblack or racial profiling incidents have a significant impact and it needs to change.

PA: You spoke incredibly powerfully about this one particular incident in 2018, but you also spoke about experiencing racism right at the very start of your career. What did you face then?

ND: My Jamaican accent was deemed to be a language barrier. I was told, you know, you're a nice guy, but you know, the way you speak or the way you write, may be detrimental, you know, to you being a police officer, as if I'm not good enough to be a police officer because of my accent. That's the way I felt. I remember being told that I should be careful when I'm on calls, how I speak to white people. And for me, if I'm out there and I'm executing the law, ask per procedure and I'm speaking clearly for everyone to understand. And I'm violating anyone's rights. What does it matter what skin colour I am?

PA: You're currently on leave from the police service because of something that happened to you in 2018? And I know it's difficult to talk about, but can you tell us what happened?

ND: You know, a partner and I attended a restaurant. We went for lunch. We came out of the restaurant. We were confronted by two police officers. Conversation ensued. We made every effort to identify ourselves. I did so verbally. Detective Constable Neil Dixon, badge number 1274. I introduced my partner, gave his badge number as well. But yet we still weren't believed the situation escalated to the point where I felt that this could go south and I may end up losing my life by my own police force. And that's how I felt.

PA: I mean, I can't even imagine what that was like. What kind of an impact does that have on you?

ND: When I say a huge impact, it's impacted my way, my life, like I want to thank the group of officers and the people that was there with me yesterday, including Courtney [inaudible], I call them my Zoom family because that's the only way we get to see each other. We speak to each other on Zoom, but I call them my Zoom family because they have been a tremendous resource of support to me. When I cry, they're there for me. And that's the impact it has had on me. I find myself overwhelmed sometimes, I get depressed, I can't sleep at night. You know, I'm so sorry for my spouse because she has to live with me. And like I said, it has changed the relationship with me and my family, my very own children.

PA: When you tried to raise these issues through the chain of command and up to your superiors, what kind of response did you get?

ND: I've been met with denial, blaim, postponements, dismissive responses. Every time I got a response back from them, it's like I'm reliving the trauma because how can we go forward as an organization if there's no acknowledgement for the harm done?

PA: After your testimony, Chief Jim MacSween said, and I'm quoting here, "We won't cease in our efforts to ensure this workplace is free of the racism, discrimination and systemic bias wherever it finds itself." Do you believe him?

ND: I want to believe him, the chief's statement yesterday, I find it to be somewhat of a blanket generic statement, sounds like what I have heard before, but yet still we're still living the trauma that black officers face on a daily basis. I believe with leadership. It takes first acknowledgement. If he had come out yesterday and gave a firm statement and acknowledged that there is indeed antiblack, systemic racism involved within York Regional Police, I would have been reassured that, yes, there is a way forward.

PA: This must be so difficult. I mean, as a cop, as a member of that institution, not just to go public, but then to have to rehash these experiences and these traumas. How are you doing?

ND: Like I said, my Zoom family, my spouse, some of my friends that have reached out to me, especially now, have been a tremendous support. My counsellor Randy Mae and my psychologist have been a great help, but believe me, I'm not OK. I'm not OK. I'm not OK. I need to start living again. I need to be who I was before. Before the second of July 2018, I need to be whole again, I need to be happy again, I need to be the father, the friend, the son, the spouse. That I once was, I'm hurting. I'm depressed.

PA: Well, it takes great bravery to just say that out loud and to get this conversation rolling and to spark the conversation that you and your colleagues sparked last night. I wonder if you could sit down with Chief Jim MacSween and you could say something to him today after this, after we've made it clear, what would you tell him?

ND: If the chief would allow me to meet with him. I would say to him, Chief, this needs to change. It needs to be acknowledged as a leader. We need to create bridges amongst employees and within the community, especially with the black community. I'd say to him we need to truly acknowledge what we are going through and then make meaningful, actionable change. And let's sit together and see where we can go forward, where we can actually be a part of the change that is required within York regional police. That's what I would say to him.

PA: We're going to leave it there. But I just really want to thank you for being as open and as transparent about all these difficult things as you have been. I really appreciate it.

ND: Thank you very much for having me.

CH: Neal Dixon is a York regional police constable who is on leave. We reached him in Shelburn, Ontario. In a statement on Wednesday, York Regional Police said they, quote, will not cease in efforts to create a workplace free of racism, discrimination and systemic bias. And if you or someone you know needs immediate mental health support, including for thoughts of suicide, you can call Crisis Services Canada at 1-833-456-4566.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Cuomo Allegations

Guest: Erica Vladimer

CH: Yesterday, Lindsey Boylan tweeted, "today, I am telling my story" and that story from the former aide to New York Governor Andrew Cuomo has everyone in Albany listening and some calling on the governor to step down. Ms. Boylan accused the governor of multiple instances of sexual harassment, including an unwanted kiss. Governor Cuomo's press secretary says the allegations are false and the governor himself has repeatedly denied them. Erica Vladimer worked at the New York State Senate. She left government in 2015 after accusing a senator of forcibly kissing her. She co-founded the Sexual Harassment Working Group, which has been trying to change what they see as the capital's culture of harassment. We reached her in New York City.

PA: Erica, what did you think when you first heard Lindsey Boylan's allegations against Governor Cuomo?

ERICA VLADIMER: You know, I wasn't surprised, but I was certainly still shocked. And that's because this never gets easy to see. Lindsey's story felt so eerily similar to what I experienced. I honestly felt like I could have been the one who was writing what she published.

PA: Can you just tell us a bit about what Ms. Boylan has alleged happened to her while she was working, as Andrew Cuomo's aid?

EV: Yeah, she talks about, you know, him paying special attention to her, pressuring her to take a specific job that she really wasn't sure she wanted because it would bring her that much closer to working with the governor. She talks about how he called her to her office or I'm sorry, his office privately to show off some things, like a box of cigars that former President Bill Clinton had given him. And, you know, she does talk about at one point when she was getting up to leave that he, you know, cut in front of her path and forcibly kissed her without her consent. And, you know, she talked about how she would get signed posters of him and headshots that were left on her desk and roses on Valentine's Day and this special attention that was really exacerbated by the stuff that Governor Cuomo surrounded himself with.

PA: And that's just it. I mean, the kind of systemic enabling in her story was striking. That you know, she was told that the governor had a crush on her, that, like other members of his staff told her that, you know, she looks similar to another rumoured girlfriend. What on earth is it like to try to do your job in an atmosphere like that?

EV: It's almost impossible. You know, Lindsey says in her publication that she started going to work nauseous every single day. It's this constant daily form of harassment that just is a form of psychological abuse and harassment that really breaks you down mentally and emotionally and forces you to start questioning whether you are there for the right reasons and whether you want to continue in public service.

PA: You said that this reminded you of your own experiences and probably rehashed all of those feelings and all of those emotions. I wonder, the other thing that must be similar is what it's like to come forward with something like this in the atmosphere of New York state capitol. What is that like?

EV: It is terrifying. I know for me my personal experience, I chose to come out because I felt like if I didn't, I was going to let down other people who might have been in similar situations. And it's terrifying to know that you were putting yourself in that position as someone who wants to build a career and life in public service. I knew that I was risking doing that. You're going up not just against your perpetrator, but, as you said, an entire institution that is filled with people who are looking to protect the institution, not the actual people inside of it. And that means that they're willing to attack you, to leak personnel files as we saw, you know, against Lindsey to try and discredit your character, to blackball you from certain jobs and make sure that you know, those jobs are pulled. And it's one of those things where it's a huge risk.

PA: Is it your perception now after these allegations have come out and been made public, that major figures in the Democratic Party are rallying around to protect Governor Cuomo?

EV: They are certainly remaining more neutral than they should. And, you know, it's not necessarily about major figures rallying around the governor to protect him. It's that they are not rallying around the fact that there are some very serious allegations out there that need to be investigated by an independent body. And this needs to happen immediately. You know, we do have some really strong advocates and allies who are in the New York state legislature who have called for that, there have been at least a dozen so far that I've seen. And they continue to, you know, to this hour and maybe five minutes ago, I think I saw one on social media that was posted. But, you know, at the same time, it's the leadership that seems to not, you know, carry those calls, the very people who need to start to get the ball rolling.

PA: What do you think should happen next to the governor? What are the next steps that need to be taken to try to get us on the right track here?

EV: Yeah. So this is you know, unfortunately, it's a very complicated question with an even more complicated answer. And that's because we don't have any type of independent body here in New York State that can investigate these types of claims without so much political influence in them. But we are looking to the attorney general's office. New York state's attorney general is elected, she was not appointed by the governor. And she does have the authority to, you know, appoint special prosecutors. And while they do that, the legislature should be working with organisations and groups like the Sexual Harassment Working Group to really codify and solidify a truly independent investigatory body that also has the power to hold elected officials accountable, truly accountable, when they violate the public officers law.

PA: Listen, we have to leave it there, but really appreciate your insights on this today.

EV: Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

PA: Have a good day.

EV: You too.

CH: Erica Vladimer is a former New York State Senate staffer who accused a senator of sexual harassment in 2018. We reached her in New York State.

[Music: percussion instrumental]

Covid Dream Animation

Guest: Marcie LeCerte

CH: If you scroll through social media, there's a good chance you'll come across the meme, someone posts what's the word for and then spills their heart about all the emotions they've been trying to process during the pandemic. It's hard to articulate things we've never experienced before, which is why a lot of people are looking to their dreams for answers.

[Background sound: electronic music]

MULTIPLE VOICES: Since the pandemic, I've had a lot of vivid dreams. There was like all these giant dinosaurs. Literally the Wiggles. Since I've gotten more sleep, they've definitely been more clear. Like a half human, half giraffe. Fires and demons everywhere. Since we don't have a realistic image of virus particles they were invisible monsters.

CH: That's from a new animation released by The New Yorker called "Invisible Monsters and Tomato Soup". The film is narrated by people from around the world, united by the mysterious dreams they've been having during the pandemic. Marcie LeCerte is the animator who was tasked with trying to bring the dreams to life. We reached her in New York.

PA: Marcie, first of all, I have to ask, did you have any weird dreams last night?

MARCIE LECERTE: Yeah, recently I've been re-watching Pirates of the Caribbean and I think I dreamed that I was also turning into Davy Jones. [laughter]

PA: You know, the animation starts with the dream that you had early on in the pandemic. Can you just describe that dream, but also how it helped sort of inspire this whole project for you and the other two filmmakers that you worked with?

ML: Yeah, sure. So the dream that I had was that I was dreaming that I was in a concert venue and then this concert venue kind of transformed into a Gap. And I basically started feeling that sense of anxiety that someone gets when they're like naked the dream. But rather than being naked, I was like without a mask in a crowded public place. I didn't ask for my dream to be in the piece. I like my friends kind of made me do that, but yeah.

PA: So but that dream was sort of the spark that started all this. And then you start to collect. How did you and the team actually go about collecting these dreams? Because they're so varied and they're from right around the world.

ML: Yeah, well, we've created a survey basically that we put out on Reddit, Twitter and other social media places. And then we also asked, like friends and family if they had any covid related dreams and if they were interested in participating. And through that, that's when I shared my dream with my friends.

PA: So we just played that clip for listeners just to give them a sense, of course, of the range of stories that you ended up animating. Radioactive lizards, sourdough bread making. I feel very seen in that. Were you surprised? I mean, did the themes that you thought would emerge, were they the same ones that ended up coming through?

ML: So, yeah, we were expecting a lot of anxious dreams, which I think it's pretty self-explanatory why we might be expecting anxious dreams. And we did get a lot of those. One surprising thing is that we did have multiple dreams that featured lizards, actually, which I think is fun. Yeah, and so, like, I don't know, that's just like a fun thing. I don't know if it necessarily means anything. The main thing that I was surprised by was how people dreamed about these like figures of comfort, whether or not they were related to them or if they were just kind of like faceless, more metaphorical abstract feelings. And we had quite a few people who had dreams like that. And so that's kind of how we ended up ending the narrative arc is with these various degrees of comfort.

PA: There is such a sort of inherent temptation to read into dreams and to try to understand them. I think you guys ended up consulting Deirdre Barrett, an assistant professor of psychology at Harvard, the author of Pandemic Dreams. What did you learn from her and her theories about this whole idea of invisible monsters?

ML: That part of our titles that directly came from our interview with her, and you can hear her in the film. So she's been collecting dreams after, like traumatic events and crises for many years now. And one thing that she's noticed that's distinct about these covid dreams is that people aren't, like, able to dream about a specific thing. They're dreaming more in metaphor. And in like ascribing these feelings of anxiety and trauma and tension to kind of like faceless creatures, or to like situations of, you know, anxiety. And so she kind of described it as invisible monsters.

PA: What role do you think animation and art in general can play right now when so many people are struggling just to process their feelings and express those feelings that our generation and several generations before us have never had to deal with?

ML: I mean, speaking from like an artist's perspective, it helps me process my emotions and it helps me figure out what I'm feeling because putting it into simple words isn't going to be as interesting or as nuanced as, like conveying feelings through images.

PA: I think there's also, there is some comfort as a viewer in seeing the weirdness of others and what they're experiencing through this.

ML: Yeah, I think. The specificity that we have in a lot of these dreams, people can relate to that, ironically, they can relate to the specificity and think about their own weird metaphors and symbols that they might have in their own dreams for sure.

PA: It was interesting hearing from Deirdre Barrett through the piece, just because there is a continuity there, that she's been looking at this for a long time. And I wonder if that sort of gotten into your head. Do you have a sense that if you were to do this again, say, a year from now, what your animation might look like?

ML: Yeah, I'm not sure how that would end up looking like. I think it would be a lot more reflective because we interviewed most of these people in spring and early summer. And so people's dreams were kind of like freshly traumatic, like probably dealing with these new customs that we're all used to now. Like putting on masks. I don't know. I do think that, like, we are all going to be thinking about this period in our lives for like the rest of our lives. And it might come through in unusual ways. Yeah.

PA: Have you become kind of hyper aware of your own dreams through this process?

ML: Yeah, I definitely have. I think, like most of the people we interviewed, they're kind of like dream fans through this process. Like I sort of was inspired by their infectious enthusiasm for weird dreams and what they might mean to a person.

PA: Well, and we've been inspired by your infectious enthusiasm. Thank you for putting this film together. It was really interesting to watch. And it's been great to talk to you about it today.

ML: Sure. Yeah, no problem. Thanks so much.

PA: Take care.

CH: Marcie LeCerte is an artist and animator. We reached her in New York and you can watch Ms. LeCerte's animation, Invisible Monsters and Tomato Soup on our website, CBC.ca/AIH.

[Music: upbeat music]

Drunk Roombas

CH: OK, OK, I just I just got to clean up a little bit of flamin hot Cheetos crumbs on the carpet. It's no problem just going to head over there. Well, where am I going? Just a little disoriented. This place is confusing. How am I supposed to get those crumbs when the whole room is spinning. Well, no, robot vacuum cleaner. You are spinning and you're supposed to be methodically vacuuming the whole room. You should never have had that last update. If your Roomba has been acting a little drunk lately, it's not just you. IRobot, the company that makes Roombas, has confirmed to the website The Verge that a recent firmware update created some weird glitches.

[Roomba sounds, banging into things]

CH: In that recent video, a Roomba turns back and forth, drives into a wall, drives into the wall again, and then sits there for a while as though it's just tried everything. One Roomba owner posted on Reddit quote, "The issues include but aren't limited to Roomba spinning around, sometimes slamming its bumper into furniture, driving around in weird patterns and getting stuck in the middle of the room". Also, Roomba's are supposed to charge themselves, but some people say there's can't find their charging stations, so they're just passing out wherever they are. The company says it may be weeks before a new update fixes the issues. So I guess just let your Roomba sleep it off, get the broom out and do what your robot vacuum seems incapable of doing and just suck it up.

[Music: pop music instrumental]

Part 2: No Charges Rochester

No Charges Rochester

Guest: Joe Prude

CH: Nearly one year ago, Joe Prude called 911 one to get help, his brother, Daniel Prude, had run out of his house in Rochester, New York. Police showed up and found Daniel naked in the street. Body cam footage shows them handcuffing him, putting a spit hood on him and pushing his head down on the ground. Mr. Prude lost consciousness. And a week later, the 41 year old black man died in hospital. This week, a grand jury decided not to indict the officers who were there that night. We reached Joe Prude in Rochester, New York.

PA: Mr. Prude, how did you react when you learnt this grand jury had decided not to indict these officers?

JOE PRUDE: You know, a little shocked, disbelief, outraged. Upset.

PA: As much as you are comfortable, would you tell us what happened last March, what was going on with your brother that led you to call 911? And what kind of help were you hoping that he would get in that moment?

JP: Well, around that time, you know, he started showing like a behaviour pattern that I was not familiar with. And, you know, that's something that prompted me to call. Thought I could help by getting him some psychiatric treatment or something that was to [inaudible].

PA: And I just wonder, when you call for help, what do you think that help looks like? I mean, what were you hoping would arrive at your door and greet him?

JP: The same people that arrived at the door and greeted him the first time, they came and put them in an ambulance and [inaudible].

PA: Why don't you think he got the help that you were hoping he would get this time?

JP: I don't know why he didn't get the help he did get the last time. I don't know what that was about. I mean, I can't point no finger that they had intention him in the first place. I can't say.

PA: A lawyer for these police officers has said that the video footage, in his words, is, "isn't pretty", but that he says the officers followed protocol and he says they couldn't have done anything different. What do you say to that?

JP: They could have done a whole lot different, they could have waited till the ambulance pulled up and let him deal with my brother. That wasn't their damn job to deal with my brother. They had no business putting their damn hands on my brother. Yeah, the video is ugly, it's horrific and anybody in their right mind could tell you, they're the ones that ended his life.

PA: The lawyers also claim that your brother's PCP use was what they call the root cause of his death.

JP: That wasn't the cause, because if you look at the medical examiner's report, it was affixation by cause of restraint. You know, I understand his situation, with him running naked up the street that was part of, you know, and they didn't find that much PCP in his body. So it was like. How much can you cover up, how much can you lie? If I'm mistaken, which I know I'm not. You got three individuals holding you down. One is in a push-up stance on your head. One is in your back, while the other one is holding your legs. You tell me that ain't enough pressure to stop somebody from breathing. That's having these excited delirium issues that they are making a damn excuse for. That wasn't the cause, as they say, excited delirium, was the cause that aint no damn medical term.

PA: What would you like people to know about your brother and what he would like?

JP: My brother was a good man. My brother didn't hate nobody, my brother, loved everybody. My brother would have given a person the shirt off his back if he needed it, you know, they took something away from me. Man, that is unexplainable for how I see a Good Samaritan of an individual that he was? You know, I mean, he was a people's person man, well-rounded. You know, and they took that man [inaudible]. The pain and anguish and the hurt that I'm feeling right now, ain't nobody can explain that, I can't even explain it because it's too damn difficult.

PA: What charges do you think these officers should be facing?

JP: They should have been faced with murder. Not no criminal negligent homicide. Murder! As you know and I know if a person is dead. How can I say that? If that person is that much of an erratic behaviour pattern and he shouted out all. [inaudible] or figure something out like the ambulance couldn't even get there so they can tend to him, because they got no people skills [inaudible] you know, and it was like. You know, he's sitting there screaming in the name of Jesus, help me, father. You should have known right then and there something was wrong with him. It didn't warrant for you to put your hands on him. He complied with every damn rule.

PA: Where do you go from here? How do you get justice for your brother?

JP: All I can say is, you know, it is all on what goes on after this hearing. I don't know. I don't know how far I'm going with this. I don't know what these people are going to do with this. All I know is that I'm in a boat right now. Yeah. So, you know, it's like, I don't know.

PA: Is there a civil lawsuit as well?

JP: Yeah, and I don't even want to elaborate on that, because everything I've ever read about the criminal side didn't go through.So, if I elaborate about this, that might fall through. So I don't want to jinx myself. So I'm just going to let time tell.

PA: Well, Mr. Prude, I'm terribly sorry for your loss, and I really do. I'm grateful that you're able to make the time to speak with us today.

JP: Yeah.

PA: All right, take care.

JP: You, too.

PA: Bye now.

CH: That was Daniel Prude's, brother Joe Prude in Rochester, New York. This week, a grand jury decided not to charge the officers who detained Daniel Prude before his death. Last year. The Monroe County medical examiner's office called Mr. Prude's death a homicide by complications of asphyxia in the setting of physical restraint. The report also pointed to PCP, intoxication and excited delirium as factors.

[Music: piano and guitar instrumental]

Masai Ujiri

CH: Masai Ujiri says what happened to him the night the Raptors won the NBA championship is actually bigger than him. Everyone who was watching remembers seeing the Raptors president getting shoved by a California sheriff's deputy as he tried to make his way onto the court to celebrate. There were lawsuits and allegations with the deputy accusing Mr. Ujiri of being the aggressor. Eventually, last summer, body camera footage was released, vindicating Mr. Ujiri. In an interview with ABC TV, Masai Ujiri talked about how he felt the night of his team's big win and on the day the body cam footage came out and how it's made him more determined than ever to fight for racial justice.

MASAI UJIRI: We don't just go buy a championship in Wal-Mart or something, you know, like it is something you are trying so hard to do and you're trying to figure out how do I go celebrate with my guys? And now you get this confrontation and it confuses you. You know, and I honestly, I was confused and taken aback. And you don't even know how to react.

ROBIN ROBERTS: You saw it for the first time and everybody else was able to see what truly transpired. What was that moment like for you?

MU: I called my wife. I called our family, and I couldn't sleep for three days, three or four days in the bubble. Because you seen that tape. Yes. You are vindicated. You feel that, yes, this is the right story. And people said you punched a policeman. You hit his jaw, you broke his jaw. There's all kinds of things and you begin to doubt yourself as time goes on. You begin to actually, like, wonder what really happened. As much as we say, yeah, this happened to me. There is worse that has happened to other people, right? George Floyd. I lost a moment. People have lost their lives. I say as humble as I can. Maybe the privilege of the job that I have to fight this. They're wrongly accused. There's no body cams. Nobody sees what happens and they are incarcerated or they are accused or they are being charged. We have to fight for them.

CH: I was Masai Ujiri in an interview with Good Morning America's Robin Roberts.

[Music: upbeat music]

Amnesty: Navalny

Guest: Anne Applebaum

CH: No one denies that Russian opposition politician Alexei Navalny is a prisoner, he's serving what many see as an unjust sentence after returning to Russia last month. But the rights group Amnesty International has now decided that it will no longer be calling him a prisoner of conscience. The group has revoked that title after videos and comments emerged from the early 2000s in which Mr. Navalny appears to disparage immigrant workers in Russia. Amnesty says that the prisoner of conscience label is not consistent with his past hateful statements. Anne Appelbaum is a staff writer with The Atlantic. We reached her in Washington, D.C.

PA: Anne, what was your first reaction when you heard that Amnesty has revoked Novotny's prisoner of conscious title?

ANNE APPLEBAUM: I thought it's a sad day. Amnesty International was the organisation that kept track of, promoted the interests of, looked after Soviet dissidents, you know, through the 1970s and 1980s. That's what it first was known for. And to make a decision like that, under the impact of what appears to have been a Russian propaganda campaign seems very strange.

PA: I mean, Amnesty spokesperson said straight out, look, this was part of an orchestrated campaign to get Navalny delisted. So why do you think the organisation agreed to do it?

AA: It's had some kind of change in leadership. It's more concerning, as so many organizations are now more concerned about what it's heroes, what its members, what its leaders have said or haven't said in the past, whether or not that's relevant to who they are in the present. This is now a, it's more than a fashion. I mean, it's kind of imperative amongst a lot of organizations. And they seem to have decided to pay attention to the messages that they were getting from this orchestrated letter writing campaign that was clearly led by the Russian State, by people close to it. And they caved into it. I mean, you know, Navalny is a controversial figure. He originally got attention by being provocative, although he's had a very different public persona recently. And although he's not somebody who's running for president in Russia, you know, whose political views were, you know, we need to involve ourselves in. They decided that his past statements from 10 years ago that they saw being repeated on social media were disturbing enough that they had to take his name down. And this, of course, is being perceived as a great victory for, you know, for the Russian regime. Here's somebody who was I mean, literally poisoned by the regime. They were trying to murder him. Who then with unbelievable bravery. Actually published a two hour documentary about Putin's personal corruption, put it on the air and then landed back in Russia. You know, this is a kind of bravery, you know, somebody who's made himself into almost a metaphor to inspire other Russians to show people what civic bravery looks like. I mean, for Amnesty to make that kind of decision about him, you know, after the fact it seems very cowardly.

PA: Is there a difference, though, between, you know, being provocative and what was found here? I mean, part of what has been dug up is this video in which Navalny certainly appears to compare immigrants to cockroaches. He's dressed up as a dentist saying we need to pull out the rotten teeth that need to be removed, regardless of where these videos came from. Can you understand why Amnesty might recoil at those kinds of past statements?

AA: I can, but in that case, it was Amnesty's obligation to have looked at them and thought about them before this moment. You know, Navalny has been in the public eye for a long time. And, you know, they could have decided six months ago that they weren't going to give him this title that they've created 'prisoner of conscience' because of those things. And then we wouldn't have had this strange scandal. But to declare it and then to withdraw it. After seeing the videos, which have been, after a campaign that has been orchestrated by the Russian State, is peculiar and it looks like caving to propaganda. Also, as I said, you know, the salient facts about Navalny are that he is under arrest. He's under arrest for seeking democracy in Russia, he's under arrest for calling for transparency and freedom of speech. You know, there is no context in which he's not a victim of the Russian State right now, and that's irrespective of anything he ever said before in his life.

PA: Now, Amnesty does point out that they're still advocating for his release, but that they feel that this prisoner of conscience label needs to reach a higher bar. I get that this should maybe never have been put on him, that revoking it is weird. But they are still pushing for his release.

AA: They're pushing for his release. But their entire campaign for him and everything they now say from here on in about Russia is now tainted. They have shown themselves to be susceptible to a Russian propaganda campaign and they have undermined their own message.

PA: Somebody at Amnesty even points out that, you know, they stripped Nelson Mandela of that title after he advocated the use of force against the apartheid regime in South Africa and at least in their view, they needed to apply some consistency here. That they hadn't seen these comments that were up and put on social media earlier and that they needed to sort of balance their equation of him out now.

AA: Well, I didn't think. Nelson Mandela's title was stripped under pressure from the South African government, Nelson Mandela advocated violence at the very beginning of his career. That's why he was in prison. So it was something that was known about him from day one. But Navalny's career is also well known. And what he's done, I mean, none of this is very, you know, is a very great secret. It's just that they somehow seem to have been made aware of it by the campaign. This campaign against Navalny is not just being pushed in Amnesty. It's being pushed everywhere. The idea is to reduce Western support for him to, you know, to defocus us, you know, so that we don't look at him. So we don't think about him, so that we don't understand what's happening to him so that we, you know, they're trying to take away his value as a moral symbol. And there is just no reason why any Western organisation, particularly one that promotes human rights, should be susceptible to something like that.

PA: And so will it affect the global effort to free Mr. Navalny?

AA: I mean, is there a global effort to free Mr. Navalny? I mean, there's been some commentary from Western leaders and, you know, some mumbling about sanctions. So I'm not sure that there's a very effective effort to help him. It will probably affect the unity of thinking about Russia and thinking about the dissident movement. Yes. But we don't have a very effective strategy towards Russia more broadly. And we certainly don't have an effective strategy towards Russian on human rights issues. And so this is just one more one more blow to an already weak, you know, an already weak strategy.

PA: Is there a way to redress this or is this just sort of what has happened? And we now need to move on to fight the big battle?

AA: It's really up to Amnesty to address it. I mean, Amnesty could come out tomorrow and say, right, we were under the influence of Russian propaganda. We made a bad decision and we're changing our minds. I mean, they could do that, you know, in five minutes.

PA: All right. And we have to leave it there. But thanks for your time today.

AA: Thank you.

CH: Anne Applebaum is a staff writer with The Atlantic. We reached her in Washington, D.C. We requested an interview with Amnesty International, but no one was available to speak with us. Amnesty did send a statement. It reads in part, "The speculation around Amnesty International's use of the term prisoner of conscience is detracting attention from our core demand that Alexei Navalny be freed immediately. This distraction only serves the Russian authorities who have jailed Navalny on politically motivated charges simply because he dared to criticise them".

[Music: guitar instrumental]

Kamloops Walkout

Guests: Chris and Karis Wilson

CH: Yesterday, at a high school in Kamloops, B.C., students held a walkout. Some of them held posters, one of which read, "My education is more important than what I wear". They were there to support grade 12 student Karis Wilson, who was removed from class for a dress code violation. Karis Wilson and her dad, Chris Wilson, spoke with the CBC today about what happened.

KARIS WILSON: I was sitting there doing my work, and then I got singled out and pulled out of class and essentially sent home from school because of my lingerie outfit apparently.

MICHELLE ELIOT: And just so everybody knows, can you describe what it was you were wearing?

KW: I have a black dress that is trimmed with lace on the outside and it's winter, so it's obviously a bit more cold. So I put a white turtleneck underneath it. The dress went down to my knees just above my knee, and my turtleneck covered my whole upper half.

ME: So how did you feel when you were told this is inappropriate?

KW: I felt empty. I felt low. I felt embarrassed. I felt alone. I was sick. And I felt like I was let down by my teachers, by my school, by my school board. And I don't think that anyone should ever feel like that. I feel like I was excited to go in and learn that day. And then I was sexualised by someone who should be educating me and someone who is older than me and someone who I trust or trusted. And I think that that's wrong.

ME: It feels strange to even be talking about what you wore and asking you about that. I mean, how do you feel about this conversation that we're having about what you wore to school?

KW: I think it's necessary. I think that this conversation needs to be had. Big changes, start with little conversations. So whether it's with your son, your student, your relatives, your family, your friends, anyone that you can reach out to, I think that conversation is what needs to be had right now. And I'm so glad that my situation, although it has been rough and I have not obviously enjoyed going through it, I think it's going to be worth it in the end if we can even make a change for one girl.

ME: And Chris, we requested an interview with the Kamloops School District. They're not doing media interviews, but did send a statement saying "we are also concerned about these allegations and are treating them seriously. The incident is currently under review. We will not comment on the incidents specifically". Have you spoken, Chris, with the school, the principal?

CHRIS WILSON: I have had conversations with the principal I've had conversations with believe is the Vice at the school board who is standing in and had great conversations. Those were kind of, I was happy that the school board and the principal were able to compartmentalise this. This is still a major issue. But on the side and the main concern that they've shared with me, although everything else is major, is making sure that Karis' education isn't affected. So we've all been working together as a team to make sure that we can put a plan in place that although we can't go back in time, we can definitely make sure that she's able to complete her education. She's at the finish line. So we just want to make sure she gets across.

ME: What are your thoughts on the dress code? I understand you had a chance to review the dress code at the high school.

CW: Wow. The only thing that it fell under was possibly distracting to a teacher or other students from their learning or teaching. And that's so ambiguous. And I'm like, wow. So now it's just individuals, individual teachers. If they feel uncomfortable, they can just say, well, carte blanche, you have to leave now. And that's the one that I took exception with. And really, I think that's where we need to make some major changes.

CH: That was Chris and Karis Wilson speaking with the CBC's Michelle Eliot on BC today.

[Music: calm piano instrumental]

Germaine Arnaktayok

CH: You might not know Germaine Arnaktauyok's name, but there's a good chance you've seen her artwork, you might even have one of her drawings in your pocket right now. In 1999, the Royal Canadian Mint featured one of Ms. Arnaktauyok's designs on a toonie to mark the birth of Nunavut. For decades, the Enock printmaker, painter and illustrator has been creating artwork that often depicts scenes and stories from Inuit culture. And this week, the Canada Council for the Arts named her as one of the winners of the Governor General's Award in Visual and Media Arts. Germaine Arnaktauyok spoke with CBC North about the award and how she became an artist.

GERMAINE ARNAKTAUYOK: I've been doing artwork as far as I can remember, and over the years I just kept going. Went to the fine arts in the 60's and I would work for education in Ottawa and then I just kept going.

LAWRENCE NAYALLY: Germaine, when you were starting out in this career, how did your family react to your drawings and your paintings and the storytelling you did through them?

GA: Well, at your career, you don't make much money. You know, they thought I should try to get into being a secretary, I said secretary that's horrible. I didn't even know how to tie, you know, over the years I make money to live on. And I think I also was encouraged by one of my teachers and I think that encouraged me to keep going.

LN: You grew up with your family in a camp near Iglulik.

GA: Yes.

LN: How did your early life influence your art with the things that you were seeing out there on the land?

GA: I used to use little wrappers for doing my artwork. I remember that because we didn't have any papers.

LN: Germaine those little gum wrappers, paintings, drawings that you did as a kid. Do you still have some of those hanging around?

GA: No [laughter] I was about, I don't know, 7, 8, maybe. Yeah.

LN: And you were drawing these little things. way out in the land.

GA: Yeah.

LN: Oh, wow.

GA: I realized, I must be pretty dedicated to my artwork when I think about it. It's like a path that was paved for me, you know.

CH: Enock artist Germaine Arnaktauyok speaking with Trail's End host Lawrence Nayally on Tuesday after winning a governor general's award in visual and media arts.

[Music: upbeat electric guitar]

Part 3: Canada promised to end solitary confinement, but a new report says it's still happening

Solitary Confinement Report

Guest: Anthony Doob

CH: Nearly two years after Ottawa announced the end of solitary confinement, the practise is alive and well. The new policy was a response to court rulings that found Corrections Canada to be violating the Charter of Rights by holding prisoners alone for too long without meaningful human contact. The department even brought on a pair of professors to hold it to its word. But their latest report reveals that Canada's prisons aren't just failing to meet their own new standards. They're subjecting detainees to treatment that's considered torture under international law. Anthony Doob teaches criminology at the University of Toronto.

PA: Professor Doob, how frequently are our prisons failing to live up to the new standards on solitary confinement?

ANTHONY DOOB: Well, what's happening is that a fair number of people are being placed in what are now called structured intervention units. They're the replacement for solitary confinement or administrative segregation. And what we're finding is that it is quite common that prisoners are not getting the kind of treatment that is envisaged in the legislation so that they are supposed to get four hours out of their cell, two hours out of their cell, is supposed to be meaningful human contact. And for the most part, that is actually not occurring. The prisoners are receiving what we're calling solitary confinement. That's about 28 percent of the stays in these units and about 10 percent are staying there long enough that under the U.N. definition, it would be considered to be torture.

PA: I mean, how much of this is just growing pains? This is a new policy. Is it just taking a while for the prisons to adjust? And what risks are inherent to that?

AD: Well, we looked at that and what we found is that in general, things were not getting better. Now, that's been a difficult time for everybody. Obviously, covid hit in March of 2020. And we looked at that as well. And it doesn't seem to be related to either period of time or covid. So it's as if they put in these things and they have not gotten better. Now, that said, there are important differences, which I think tell you, first of all, what's possible. And second is what the Correctional Service of Canada should be learning from this process. And that is that all of the problems that we looked at seemed to vary quite dramatically, either across institutions or across regions, so that if the Correctional Service of Canada were interested in learning from its experiences, what it would be doing is looking to those regions or institutions which seem to be doing things better. Let me just give you one example of that, which is there were about 135 people who were in these units for over 16 days. So they're in solitary confinement for a long time. There are about 135 who got actually their time out of cell. Almost all of those were in one region, namely the prairie region. So that in the prairie region, it seemed as if they were more successful, substantially more successful in getting people out of cells and trying to treat them like normal human beings than anywhere else. But even within the prairie region, it was two of the institutions that were doing this and the others were not. So that tells you two things. One is that it's possible. And second is that at least so far, we don't seem to be learning from our successes or failures.

PA: And what has the response been from Corrections Canada?

AD: Well, it's been vague and from my perspective, unsatisfactory. They say they're looking into these things, they take their job seriously. They mention the fact that these kinds of decisions are to some extent, to a limited extent, looked at by a group of people who are called independent external decision makers. But we're looking at these things after the independent decision makers have actually, you know, supposedly had their influence. Well, they've had their influence. If they've had their influence in one institution, why is it that they're not having their institution and others? So one has to give credit to the Correctional Service of Canada for sharing its data with us and allowing us to make these findings public because they themselves, the Correctional Service of Canada, are not making any of the operations of these units public. But it's really the next step. And, you know, many of the findings that we have reported in this report are really repeats and extensions of findings that we reported in October. So they've had some time to actually talk about what should be changing in these units. And at least publicly, we don't really know much other than their assurances that they take these findings seriously, whatever that means.

PA: And just in closing, sir, this has been going on for so long. This isn't your first report. You know, there are court cases, there have been deaths. Why is this such a persistent problem?

AD: That's a very good question. There's a lawyer at the University of British Columbia, Michael Jackson, who's been working on this issue for 50 years. And, you know, he's to be praised for not having lost complete faith in the importance of continually looking at these things. One of the things to remember is that from the perspective of those who are running the prisons, who aren't looking at the long term, who may not be as focussed on human rights as other people might be, is that putting a person in a cell and locking the door and making it so that they're invisible is an easy way out. You push food into the cell through a slot in the cell and you don't worry about it. And all of these things, remember, are happening behind tall walls so that these aren't public. None of this thing is public. So none of these things are really getting the kind of visibility that they should. We're trying to run, supposedly we're trying to run humane prisons in Canada. But one of the ways to make them humane is to shine some light on them. And, you know, I think that the difficulty with prisons is that inherently light doesn't get in.

PA: Well, Professor Doop, thank you for your work on this and thank you for sharing it with us today.

AD: Thank you very much for asking.

CH: Anthony Doob teaches criminology at the University of Toronto. We reached him in Toronto. And you can find more on this story on our web page at CBC.ca/AIH.

[Music: electronic music]

Daphne Caruana Galizia

Guest: Herman Grech

CH: Daphne Caruana Galizia's family is one step closer to getting justice on Tuesday, one of the people charged with killing the Maltese journalist pleaded guilty. Vincent Muscat was sentenced to 15 years in prison for murder. Ms. Galizia was an investigative journalist, once described as a one woman WikiLeaks. In 2017, Mr. Muskat, along with three known accomplices, planted a bomb on Ms. Galizia's car and detonated it moments after she left her home. Her murder sparked outrage in Malta and around the world. This week's ruling may pave the way to more possible convictions. In addition to the guilty plea, Vincent Muscat also agreed to help authorities in their ongoing investigation. On October 16th, 2017, the day Ms. Galizia died. Her friend and former colleague spoke with Carol. Herman Grech is the online editor at the Times of Malta. Here he is, starting with a description of what happened.

HERMAN GRECH: She just got into her car. She just drove away for about 100 metres, 200 metres, and the car just blew up. Basically, it took police quite a while to actually establish her in the car because the body was blown to smithereens, basically.

CAROL OFF: So it was a very, very powerful explosion.

HG: It was a very powerful blast. Definitely was heard around the island, basically. So it was definitely intended to, not maim but kill.

CO: And her son, one of his sons, ran out to see and discovered the scene. You know how her family members are doing?

HG: Well, obviously, they're all in despair. State of despair. People did fear the worst for Daphne Caruana Galizia because of the way she felt, the way she was very, very critical of people in government. She basically threw punches and sometimes dealt very, very heavy blows. She had a lot of enemies.

CO: But she was very critical of the government. What kinds of reporting had she been doing about government leaders?

HG: Look, she's been writing for 30 years now. She's always being critical of the Labour Party and any of its exponents supporters. But what really put her in the limelight in the last year and a half, where the Panama Papers, she did the whole exposé about the Panama Papers in which some officials from the government were actually implicated. So that put her into the line of fire.

CO: There were reports by a Maltese television that she filed the complaint to the police a few weeks ago that she was receiving death threats. Did she ever speak to you or your other colleagues about threats she was receiving?

HG: No, no. That's the first we heard about it. But I do know that she has received threats in the past. She's even written about it, that she has been receiving all sorts of threats.

CO: What was she like? What drove her to do this, to do the work she was doing?

HG: It's a good question because in reality, it wasn't like even profitable, she was a newspaper columnist with us, with The Times of Malta before she moved to another newspaper. So it was according to her, it was just her quest for the truth. About trying to rid Malta of all the corrupt people. And she has been throwing punches at the government and anybody who supported the government for the past year and a half, and especially since the Panama Papers broke.

CO: Herman, we'll leave it there. Again, sorry for the loss of your colleague. This sounds really quite awful. I appreciate you speaking with us tonight. Thank you.

HG: You're welcome.

CO: Good night.

CH: From our archives, that was Herman Grech speaking with Carol about the killing of his friend and colleague, Daphne Caruana Galizia in October of 2017.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Syrian Torture Conviction

Guest: Anwar Al-Bunni

CH: When we last spoke with Syrian human rights lawyer Anwar Al-Bunni, he wasn't sure how the German trial of two accused Syrian war criminals would end. Now, one of those men has been convicted, for arresting peaceful protesters who were later tortured and in some cases murdered. According to the court in Koblenz, Eyad Al-Gharib will spend four and a half years in jail for Mr. Al-Bunni. It's a first step toward a kind of justice that has eluded Syrian refugees who are sometimes forced to live alongside people they say imprisoned or tortured them in countries where they've claimed asylum. We reached Anwar Al-Bunni in Berlin.

PA: Mr. Al-Bunni, what did it mean to you to hear this verdict yesterday?

ANWAR AL-BUNNI: It means a lot, I think it's a victory for victims first, for justice second, for Syria and people who work on accountability documentation sic for justice.

PA: In the end, what exactly was Eyad Al-Gharib convicted of?

ANWAR AL-BUNNI: He facilitated crimes against humanity. He confessed to arresting at least 30 at a peaceful demonstration in Syria and deliver them to the Branch 251 while he know very well they were tortured. And he hears the voice of detainees when they cry from torture and he know many of them killed under torture in this place. So while you know all of that, he did deliver these detainees to the branch.

PA: Now, his lawyers argued that he feared punishment for disobedience if he did not carry out these orders. And they said he cooperated with the German authorities in the case. Do either of those arguments, do they give you any sympathy for Mr. Al-Gharib?

ANWAR AL-BUNNI: Yeah, he was cooperating, he gave the evidence against him, was his testimony, in fact, but a court take it or note it and the decision said he cooperated.

PA: I think part of his argument is that he had no choice, that if he didn't do this, he would have been punished or perhaps even tortured. Do you believe that?

ANWAR AL-BUNNI: No, I don't, because court also knows that and that the decision said he have a chance to don't do that, he have more than one time chance to escape, but he didn't. And there is two witness around him, they said he wasn't so angry about what he did when they met him in 2011. That give also a sign to the court that he can escape. But he didn't do that.

PA: Now there's another man who remains on trial in Coblenz, Anwar Raslan. Well, and he's the man who arrested you in Damascus and then you later found him in Berlin. What is he accused of?

ANWAR AL-BUNNI: Anwar Raslan is different and Raslan [inaudible] by comitted, at least 4000 torture. And 58 detainees killed under torture, under his watch or his hands and at least two cases of sexual violence. So it's so different he committed this crime and there is witnesses against him. There is a plaintiff against him there, are at least two recognize him personally. And there is at least six who recognize his voice. But he refused twice to give this of his voice, to be sure if he is or not.

PA: Now, the court, as you say, will continue to hear witnesses and plaintiffs in that case all the way through till October. I wonder, what outcome are you expecting there?

ANWAR AL-BUNNI: I am pretty sure. I think for me personally, he will stay in jail for life. He will not go out of jail. That sentence will be for life. But, my God, it's not just these two people. It's a chance to charge and excuse holds. The regime holds the systematic torture in Syria who came by order, chain of command from the top, in fact. And the decision of the court was very clear. It's not just this guy sentenced because they are part from this systematic torture in Syria came from the top level, from the head of this structure of criminals still rule in Syria. And the in the details of the decision was very clear about the intelligence division in Syria built to genocide. In fact, they used the word genocide, the opposition. So while they use these people to sentence them, it was to charge for the regime, including the top Bashar al Assad himself.

PA: You said today that you want to see the whole regime prosecuted right up to the very top. Bashar al-Assad is still the top of that regime. Do you think you will ever see him face a court and face a prosecutor for these charges?

ANWAR AL-BUNNI: First of all, my goal, it's not now to catch him. We will catch him at last. I don't worry about that. My goal, in fact, to be sure he will not stay. He will not chair our generation's future. He will not rule our future and our children. That's my goal and when I charge him and those criminals, I will be sure there is no way to make a deal, in any kind of deal to keep him or deal with him as president or a state or as a legal situation. That my first goal, in fact, when he will be out of our future, I do not worry. We will catch him and deliver him to the court and we will prosecute him. But first, I want to be sure he will be out of our future.

PA: Mr. Al-Bunni, we have to leave it there. But thank you very much for speaking with us today.

ANWAR AL-BUNNI: OK, Thank you. Thank you.

CH: Anwar Al-Bunni is a Syrian human rights lawyer. We reached him in Berlin.

[Music: mystery music]

Prickles the sheep

Guest: Alice Gray

CH: Looking around the screen during a zoom call provides all the evidence you need that people have not been getting professional haircuts or getting haircuts at all, but there's no ball cap big enough to cover the mop that poofed out in all directions from an Australian sheep named Baarack. That's Barack like Barack Obama. But with two A's. I did not name him and no one had until rescuers found him in the forest about 60 kilometres north west of Melbourne. He had so much wool just around his face that he could barely see or eat. But now that wool is gone, all 35.4 kilograms of it, that is 78 pounds. Baarack's impressive fleece got us thinking about Prickles, a sheep from Tasmania who got lost during a wildfire. She survived in the wilderness for seven years before she returned home with a truly wild do. Carol spoke with Prickles' owner, Alice Gray, in April of last year.

CO: What did you do in order to get Prickles home again?

ALICE GRAY: Well, it was Good Friday and it was my son Barclays' sixth birthday, and he couldn't have a birthday party because, of course, we are in isolation here in Tasmania like the rest of the world. And so we went up to the back of our farm for a barbecue. And while we were setting up, we looked across a dam and we saw these big round thing on the other side of the dam like, oh, my gosh, I think that is that crazy sheep. So we were just having our barbecue lunch when my husband went missing. And about 15 minutes later he called back and he was puffing and panting. It's like, come and help. He traps the sheep in the corner of a paddock. I was lying on it and he needed us to go and help him sort of struggle this huge sheep into the back of the ute.

CO: And a ute is what?

AG: Oh, sorry. Ute, I think you call it a truck. It's like a car with a tray on the back. Anyway, we had the grandparents with us, so it took five of us to be able to manage to strangle this giant sheep into the back of the car to get it back to our farmyard.

CO: OK, now I've seen a picture. I mean, this is one massive ball of wool. I mean, you can lose a small child in there.

AG: I know. I know. Well, you certainly could. And she had a few prickles in her fleece, which is, of course, why my son named her Prickles. And yes, she's quite a sight to behold and she's quite glorious. But luckily, she was very healthy and all of that and very nimble for something with, you know, with such extreme proportions.

CO: So you wrestle with this massive wool ball into the ute and took her home. How does Prickles feel about being back?

AG: Well, when we bought her back into the yard, the first thing was I think she must have been quite confused. We have a few turkeys and ducks around. She was chasing them around, having a wonderful time. But then she was put in with some sheep and she now just seems to be part of the flock again. They're very comfortable wandering around together, despite the fact she's about five times the size of the others.

CH: I was Alice Gray speaking with Carol about her sheep Prickles. Last April, Prickles returned home after seven years of living and growing her fleece out in the wilderness.

[Music: piano instrumental]

Rugby team sings

CH: If you had to name one characteristic of a rugby player, you'd probably start with tough. It's a necessary trade in a full contact sport that uses scant protective gear. But that doesn't mean rugby players can't also be sensitive and super sweet. The Kaiviti Silktails from Fiji have just wrapped up their stay in quarantine at a hotel in Sydney, Australia, readying themselves to tackle and be tackled in the Ron Massey Cup. But before they turned in their key cards, the players stepped out onto their hotel room balconies to say thank you to the hotel staff with a song.

[Rugby team singing]

CH: Fijian rugby team, the Kaiviti Silktails, singing to quarantine hotel staff in Sydney, Australia. That's our Sound of the Day.

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February 25, 2021 Episode Transcript

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