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The Current Transcript for February 4, 2021

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

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Prologue

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WOMAN: I needed to take more time for myself, I also learned a great deal about the community that we come from.

MATT GALLOWAY: Eleven months into this pandemic, it's those community ties that have helped so many. This morning, "The Current"'s virtual road trip across Canada crosses the Confederation Bridge and visits P.E.I. COVID has hit the island's tourism sector hard. In 30 minutes, hear how the pandemic has shown the strength of that community fabric. Also this morning, Globe and Mail health columnist André Picard on the slow drip of vaccines, increasing frustration and what to do about Super Bowl parties this weekend. And later,.

MAN: I started wearing them basically in the 80s.

WOMAN: You can find a pair to go with everything, and they're good for the weather, really.

MAN#2: I reckon I got them when I was going to school, so I was probably about 10ish.

MATT GALLOWAY: It was a rite of passage for many of us. Lacing up our first pair of Doc Martens. The iconic leather boot has had a starring role in pop culture for decades. And now, it's hitting the London stock market. From punk rock to high fashion, the deep footprint of Docs in an hour. We begin, though, with "The Fifth Estate"'s investigation into the fall of a celebrated Canadian charity and its close ties with the family of the prime minister. Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. And this is "The Current".

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Fifth Estate interview with co-founders of WE Charity

Guest: Mark Kelly

MARK KIELBURGER: We were politically mugged, but not just us, all these young people were politically mugged in the process.

MATT GALLOWAY: That's Mark Kielburger, one of the co-founders of the WE Charity, and that's from a rare interview he and his brother Craig gave to "The Fifth Estate"'s Mark Kelly following the WE scandal last summer. At the centre of that interview, their relationship with the prime minister and the Trudeau family. And Mark Kelly is with me now. Mark, good morning.

MARK KELLY: Good morning, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: Just briefly, remind us what happened. I said the scandal. What was the controversy last summer between the prime minister and the WE charity?

MARK KELLY: Yeah, we'll wrap it up quickly as we can here, Matt. That the federal government had offered the WE organization a massive contract to run a program that would pay students for volunteer hours during the pandemic, this was part of the big bailout package that Trudeau government was offering right at the peak of the pandemic. And, of course, it was what we would learn later is it was a sole-source contract. There were no other competitive bidders for this. So they were handed what was, in effect, a 500-million dollar contract to pay students to do these volunteer hours without competition. And then what we would learn later is that the prime minister didn't recuse himself from that cabinet decision to give them that contract, nor did then Finance Minister Bill Morneau, who had one of his own children working for the We organization. So when all that came to light, it became a scandal of political favouritism, of conflict of interest, allegations from the opposition. Eventually, that contract was taken back from the charity and eventually, that contract was cancelled. And then the downward spiral for WE began.

MATT GALLOWAY: It has been six months since the beginning of the WE scandal. You sat down with the Kielburger in December. How are they doing?

MARK KELLY: Well, in their own words, sad and angry. But... but I should preface this, Matt, by saying we didn't pick up the phone at "The Fifth Estate", call the Kielburgers and say, would you like to sit down for an interview? And then we showed up with our cameras. I've never been involved in all my years of a journalist of going through, I won't say negotiations because we weren't negotiating anything, but conversations with people that we wanted to interview. We first met them, me along with our producer, Harvey Cashore, we met the brothers. We sat down with them for three, four hours, maybe, at their headquarters here in Toronto and talked, talked about the issues, talked about some of their... their worries, their fears, their... their... their anger about how they feel they've been treated in the press. There would be subsequent meetings after that, two more, totalling about 10, 12 hours before they eventually agreed to sit down with "The Fifth Estate" because they had concerns about sitting down with "The Fifth Estate". And one can imagine. But you've got to realize, Matt, that here was a charity that had tentacles throughout Canada. You know, they were involved with thousands of schools in this country. They were involved with tens of thousands of students, hundreds of thousands of students, whether they were, you know, classroom activities, wE Days, thier feelgood festivals that travelled across the country, or even foreign trips that they would do, you know, the voluntourism. So here they were at their peak, where they... they had this sort of like very prosperous organization. And then all of that suddenly came crashing down, both with a pandemic and, of course, with the WE Charityscandal. This is how Mark Kielburger put it in his own words.

MARK KIELBURGER: This did not need to happen. This whole situation did not need to happen. We did not have to be in a situation whereby 100,000 young people didn't get access to their volunteer service, whereby a million young people wouldn't have access to the WE organization right now, especially when it's needed most as the pandemic comes back. We were providing mental health resources to 7,000 schools in Canada back in March before we received the phone call from the government. The whole situation is surreal in many respects, but it's just also so disappointing, not just disappointing for us, but disappointing for all the young people. I think in all of this, people have lost sight of the kids, which just gets me to the angry part. I'm just also angry.

MARK KELLY: And you say people have lost sight of the kids. Who are those people who have lost sight?

MARK KIELBURGER: You know, you look at all these politicians who just wanted to score political points against each other. And then the end result of that was kids were left by the wayside. I mean, the WE organization, of course, we ended up becoming part of the the political roadkill. OK, but, you know, I always thought you went into politics to help make a difference, to help improve the lives of people, and that was a consistent theme throughout all the decisions that one would make. And it's obviously not the case.

MATT GALLOWAY: You've been looking into the long history of the Trudeau's and the WE charity. When did that relationship start?

MARK KELLY: We go back to 2007, Matt. Even before Justin Trudeau entered politics was the first time he had made an appearance speaking at the very first We Day here in the in the Toronto area. Back in 2007, Justin Trudeau was involved with Katimavik, the youth organization. So that's when they started. He was elected in 2008, MP in Montreal. He was back on the WE stage that following year. And he would be subsequent times after that. You know, they had two powerful brands about youth, hope and change, and they were two rising stars, really, when you look at it, when you look at Craig Kielburger, or the Kielburger brothers, and Justin Trudeau. And they were on parallel tracks. It was interesting to find out, you know, as we looked at our documentary and our investigation, how, you know, the rising stars, they didn't realize at a certain point that they were on a collision course, but in fact, they were. But you go back when you look at this, and it was, what, 2012 Justin Trudeau's now eyeing a leadership run for the Liberal Party. And at that point, he's on stage with his wife, Sophie Gregoire, at a WE event in Montreal. But listen to this, because we got a hold of this tape from that. It's interesting because here, we start to see the line between politician and promoter of the WE Charitystarts to get blurred when you listen to Justin Trudeau in this clip.

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: For more information on how you can attend this summer's Take Action Academy or even volunteer overseas on Free The Children's projects. Check out the Me To We we info booth at the back of the auditorium. Also, at the back of the auditorium is a Free The Children info booth where you can learn more about Free The Children and how you can get involved. For all the teachers in the house, be sure to visit the Educator Resource booth in the lobby to learn how you can access classroom-ready curriculum resources to support your work with the WE Schools in Action Program.

MARK KELLY: And as I mentioned, Sophie Grégoire Trudeau, she cohosted that We Day event in Montreal. She was paid for that, 1,400 dollars, completely above board. She's a former broadcaster. But as we would learn, this was a sign of things to come.

MATT GALLOWAY: It sounds like promotional material.

MARK KELLY: Yeah, in fact, it did. And as I mentioned, this is when Trudeau was... was... was preparing for his leadership run. So it was not like he was some lowly backbencher at the time. He was very prominent. And there's, of course, you know, what we're just illustrating through this is to say how they were really intertwined. They would try to unravel that later when the political scandal blew up. But when you look back on it, they were walking step-by-step together.

MATT GALLOWAY: So step forward a few years. How close were the Trudeaus to the Kielburgers at the time that the Canada Student Service Grant contract was awarded, that sole-source contract that you mentioned?

MARK KELLY: Right. Well, in 2020, the beginning of twenty... it was March 2020. Wembley Stadium in England, picture this, Matt, it's packed. This would be the last We Day that was held. So you've got the Kielburgers on stage, but who else would you have on stage? You would have Sophie Gregoire Trudeau who was on stage. You would have Margaret Trudeau, of course, an outspoken mental health advocate, but you even had the prime minister's own daughter on stage, Ella Grace, here at that event at Wembley. And remember, this is England. [chuckling] This wasn't being held it in London, Ontario. And you've got Trudeaus on stage there. They are completely intertwined, and they were that close. And they thought that this was when they were at their peak of their powers. Of course, the pandemic would strike later. Sophie Grégoire Trudeau, in fact, contracted COVID at that event. And then that spiral would start to unravel with their two brands that seemed so powerful together now became toxic.

MATT GALLOWAY: Last summer, the disclosure was made that WE had paid Margaret Trudeau and Sacha Trudeau, Justin Trudeau's brother. What was the fallout from that... from that disclosure that... that money had changed hand?

MARK KELLY: Well, the fallout was significant, Matt, but it's more than just the disclosure. It was how the disclosure came about. You know, the Kielburgers have said over and over again that they were the victims of, you know, they've called themselves political roadkill, that they were the victims of dirty politics, that they were the victims of opposition politicians scoring, looking to score political points. But this is a self-inflicted wound. And this is an important point. The WE organization was asked by our colleague Janice McGregor in our Parliament Hill bureau, did the WE organization. Now, there's a for-profit side and a charity side. Did the organization ever pay any members of the Trudeau family for their appearances, honoraria, expenses whatsoever? The answer that came back was no. The WE Charitynever paid for the Trudeaus for any of these events.

MATT GALLOWAY: But as you say, there's two parts to the organization.

MARK KELLY: There's two parts. So they came back and said, no, the charity never did. That denial hung out there for two weeks until Jesse Brown, who runs the new site Canadaland, very controversial in the eyes of the Kielburger family. But he was then sent a speaking invoice, a bill for Margaret Trudeau, 7,500 dollars, she was paid for an event that was in New York City, signed for by Free the Children. That's the charity, that the WE charity. So this was then brought back to the Kielburgers, and they said, oh, this was a billing error. But then, with more scrutiny that came on, we would learn that Alexander Trudeau spoke at nine WE events. He was paid 36,000 dollars. And Margaret Trudeau spoke at 28 events. And this is after the prime minister was elected. Twenty-eight events between 2016 and 2020, she was paid 180,000 dollars in speaking fees, another 164,000 dollars in expenses. This is not an insignificant sum. And they had been asked clearly, did you pay? Their answer was no until this came out. Now, I spoke to a source of mine who was a board member on the WE charity. And I spoke to him off-the-record, and I asked, did the Kielburgers ever tell you, did you ever ask, were the Trudeaus ever paid? Yes, they asked. The answer was no. So this is an important point. So I asked Craig, why would you not even tell your own board? Why would you never inform them what anyone would see as a potential political bombshell? And here's what he said.

CRAIG KIELBURGER: It was actually a question that we had been posed by a specific board member who asked to be paid talent for WE Day? And it was in that context the question came up. And we answered in full candour, as we would any question asked by a board member or anyone for that matter, we don't pay. In fact, we've never paid for people to come and speak on the stage. We never had to. Celebrities... the, oh my gosh, from J.Lo to the Dalai Lama, from Malala to Prince William, these people get on the stage to speak to kids. And we've never had a hard time recruiting anyone to, frankly, get up on the We Day stage.

MARK KELLY: So why did you pay Margaret Trudeau?

CRAIG KIELBURGER: Oh, we didn't have to on the WE Day stage. Specifically, though, what we did need her help for is other events, for example, friendraisers or fundraisers or events that we did for educators or others in the community that we needed a speaker just like a university lecture series, or some celebrity comes to a golf tournament with fundraising. That's why she was engaged with us. And she was one of dozens of people who did this.

MATT GALLOWAY: Help me understand that. It seems there's a bit of daylight there.

MARK KELLY: Well, you know, there's something I learned, Matt, certainly with talking with Mark and Craig Kielburger is that they have an answer for everything. And that could be seen as a good thing, but there's a lot of daylight between there. So they're saying, no, we weren't paying her to be on the... on the stage. We were paying her to be speaking to groups after a WE Day event. That wasn't the question that was put to them when the CBC asked them, were they paid? The answer was no. So they've tried to rationalize this by saying, no, we weren't paying for that, but yes, we were paying for this, and that's OK. But clearly, as any Canadian would see, the optics of this don't look good when you are paying members of the Trudeau family. And then later, you're handed a sole-source contract, which would be a benefit to a charity that had been pounded by the pandemic, was laying off workers, and certainly needed that to help them keep them afloat.

MATT GALLOWAY: Since it all fell apart in the wake of those disclosures, how do they characterize their relationship with each other, the Trudeaus and the Kielburgers? This is a relationship that was, as you said, a close relationship or at least a relationship that where they knew each other in past. How do they characterize that relationship?

MARK KELLY: Well, you know, it's funny because, Matt, when they were on stage, they would consider themselves friends. They call themselves friends. You know, you'd see that. They'd be arm-in-arm. They'd be, you know, hugging and cheek kisses and everything that you would see that would be common among people who you would consider friends. And this was really the thing that I was trying to get at them with that relationship, asking them the simple question, did Justin Trudeau throw you under the bus? When everything blew up, when it looked like this wasn't good, their relationship was now working against the prime minister. It was good when he was building his brand. It was good when he was out there standing in front of, you know, thousands of young, eager Canadians who wanted to volunteer, who wanted to go out and make a difference in the world. It was great. But when it got bad, he walked away from them. Now, they couldn't bring themselves to say that they personally felt that they had been betrayed by the prime minister. But make no mistake, you can see it. You can hear it in their voice that they felt that somebody who may have at least if didn't have their back, the Kielburgers' back, certainly had the WE organization's back. And then suddenly, he took a step back. He prorouged parliament to try to shortcut this whole investigation into this that's happening on Parliament Hill. He went on vacation, and the Kielburgers were left holding the bag. You know, it's interesting. They feel very angry about the way that they've been treated by the Conservatives and the way that they've been treated by the NDP as well — and the Finance Committee. They feel that they've been beaten up. What they really wanted is someone to stand up for them and say, guys, this is on me. And that's someone that would have been the prime minister, and it never happened. Here's... here's how Craig puts it.

CRAIG KIELBURGER: It was really unfortunate that there wasn't a moment when a politician of any party chose to stand up and say, you know what, that we shouldn't use a children's charity's name as a political football. That instead, let's properly call it what it is. And this was a political issue. This was a political issue that had a charity as roadkill, as collateral damage. But I do find it amazing that all of these politicians, and we serve children and every single one of their ridings, all of these kids, all of these teachers, all of these young people who lost out because nobody had the moral courage to stand up and say, let's actually call this what it is. It's a political scandal.

MARK KIELBURGER: And the irony of ironies is that politicians of this country have the word honourable in front of their name. And we sat there so many times throughout this entire process, and the actions have been, of course, less than honourable.

MATT GALLOWAY: What is their main takeaway from what happened last summer?

MARK KELLY: You know, they... they... they promote a narrative that they're victims, the victims of dirty politics.

MATT GALLOWAY: Calling themselves road kill, for example.

MARK KELLY: Yeah. And that this was something all of... you know, they say that they were naive. And that, Matt, is where I had to step in in our conversation and say, come on, 25 years you've been at this. You've shared stages with the Dalai Lama. You talk about this, you know, Oprah Winfrey, Microsoft, you've got the wealthiest of Canadian families who have been donors with them, corporations that have been behind them for years. And now they come along after years of courting the Trudeau family and say, you know, Mark, we were naive. We didn't really understand the optics of it. And that was a certain point of this conversation where I had to call them on and say, I just don't believe that after all these years, you can really present the answer that we didn't see this coming because we were naive. And I had to call them on it, listen.

MARK KIELBURGER: It's very fair for someone to say that there is a relationship. And Mark, your point is valid because, you know, the optics weren't great. We understand that. But please also realize that we were working with politicians of all stripes, of all parties in every region of this country.

CRAIG KIELBURGER: And frankly, in hindsight, let me be very candid. I wish we hadn't.

MARK KELLY: And that to me was the takeaway, mATT, I wish we had. And this was a relationship that they spent with the Trudeau's all these years, you know, courting them and curating this relationship and using it for all it was worth until it wasn't worth anything anymore. And now they say, I wish we hadn't got on stage and shared those stage with politicians. Justin Trudeau being one, or they said, any politicians at this point.

MATT GALLOWAY: What about the other side of that relationship? How's the prime minister and the Trudeau family responded in the wake of all of this?

MARK KELLY: Well, we've asked them for a response, and we've yet to get that... that response. But let me put it this way, Matt, and this is interesting. As I said earlier, Craig Kielburger is a guy who has an answer for everything. I asked him, you know, you had this relationship with Justin Trudeau since 2007. I said ever since this whole thing came crashing down, did at any point he reach out to you and say, how are you guys doing? Long pause They said, no. And I said, OK, well, if you had the chance to speak with the prime minister now, what would you say to him? And for Craig Kielburger, who has an answer for everything, there was the longest pause, and then he said, I have no words.

MATT GALLOWAY: Where is this charity now? WE was, to your point, it was a brand name in this country in many ways. And this scandal has left the founders of the charity feeling like roadkill.

MARK KIELBURGER: Mm-hmm.

MATT GALLOWAY: Where is the charity now?

MARK KELLY: Fighting for survival. We did the interview at their head office here in Toronto. Beautiful office, beautiful building, empty. They've laid off hundreds of employees, but they are fighting for their survival, make no mistake, and I think part of them talking to "The Fifth Estate" was trying to let people know that they are still alive. They are still operating in the United States. They've still operating in the UK. They've still got operations in places like Kenya and some developing countries where they've got operations going there. And they're trying to keep those things alive. But, at the same time, the WE Charityscandal as Canadians who have come to know this is not over yet. We know that the Federal Ethics Commissioner is still looking into Justin Trudeau and whether there was a conflict of interest in his relationship with the Kielburger family in the awarding of that contract. Also looking into former Finance Minister Bill Morneau for the same reason. And now, we've just learned that the Federal Ethics Committee has called the Kielburgers to testify later this month about this very question, was there a conflict of interest in the relationship between the prime minister, the brothers and their charity? So in many ways, you know, both the prime minister and the Kielburgers, you know, they may have split ways here, but at the same time, they are still linked together by that relationship that they both now want to walk away from. It's still there. That charity, as we say, in the charity scandal, as we say in our business, Matt, it still has legs. This isn't over yet. And as much as the Kielburgers and the Trudeaus will want to put this in their rear-view mirror and walk away from it, it's still there. And we're still talking about this for... for the weeks and months to come.

MATT GALLOWAY: Mark, thank you.

MARK KELLY: Thank you.

MATT GALLOWAY: Mark Kelly is the co-host of "The Fifth Estate". His documentary, "The Price WE Paid", will air on CBC television tonight at 9:00 p.m. Your CBC News is next. And then,.

MAN: We've never really got to enjoy our island summer. You know, you wouldn't get to go to the beach with your... with your kids or your wife or anything. So... so, you know, this summer, I think a lot of us took advantage of the quieter time and got to spend more time with our immediate families and just kind of chill out.

MATT GALLOWAY: Our "Canada's Road Ahead" series makes a pit stop in beautiful Souris, Prince Edward Island, where folks there are re-evaluating what matters most. We will get back on the road, virtually, in our radio RV coming up in about six minutes time. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to "The Current". Stay with us.

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Canada’s Road Ahead: Souris, P.E.I., and businesses missing tourism

Guests: Amber Jenkins, Troy Bruce

MATT GALLOWAY: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to "The Current".

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MATT GALLOWAY: Still to come,

[Music: Hip beat].

ANNOUNCER: Dr. Marten is symbol of freedom.

WOMAN It's like a... like a rebellious street where people just think whatever, you know?

WOMAN#2: I think that's kind of you get that kind of like knowing glance when you see someone that wears them.

MAN: Just the people that have been in doctor Martens are just amazing people.

MATT GALLOWAY: That knowing glance. They defy authority and define generations. Now, the world's favourite stomper is hitting the London Stock Exchange. But first, our virtual radio RV is back on the road.

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MATT GALLOWAY: It's something few Prince Edward Islanders could possibly contemplate: a summer without tourists. 2020 wasn't quite like that, but in some places it came pretty close. Cottages stayed shuttered. The "Anne of Green Gables" Musical in Charlottetown shut down. Only half as much traffic as usual across the Confederation Bridge, that's the link between P.E.I. and the mainland. And now, there's another season of uncertainty looming, and it's not at all clear whether people on P.E.I. will be able to rely on tourists coming back anytime soon.

[A vehicle revs up]

MATT GALLOWAY: So it's a good time to make that trip across the Confederation Bridge, virtually, of course, as part of our series called "Canada's Road Ahead", over the Bridge, heading east. We find the town of Souris.

WOMAN: Hi.

WOMAN#2 Hi there. How are you today?

WOMAN Good.

WOMAN#2 Good!

WOMAN A little snack.

WOMAN#2 Sure!

[A price gun beeps]

MATT GALLOWAY: First off, right here on the main strip, at MacPhee's Market.

ALAN MCPHEE: How are you doing? How are things this morning?

WOMAN Good!

MAN: What's up on deck?

ALAN MCPHEE: Meatloaf.

WOMAN Meatloaf.

MATT GALLOWAY: Alan MacPhee owns the grocery store, along with the Home Hardware building next door. You'll notice the now familiar pandemic changes: plexiglass dividers, arrows on the floor. But Alan's also rigged up the doors, so you can't get in unless you've taken a squirt of hand sanitizer. He remembers what it was like adjusting to this new reality.

ALAN MCPHEE: The biggest thing that hit us was an announcement by the government that up to 3,000 people could die, which was a two per cent rating. And that really put the whole community in a panic. We had staff out on stress leave. People really didn't know what was coming at them, particularly with this dire prediction that... that had been made. We had to put security in right off the bat because we are the terminal point for the Madeleine Island ferry. So we had a lot of off-island people coming in, and there was a provincial regulation that didn't permit off-island people to come into public premises. We would serve them in the parking lot, or we would take food to the ferry terminal. But we weren't allowed to let people come in the store. And it took a while to get that sorted out. But people were scared, were very scared. And we have a very old population here, and very limited medical resources. So the theory is we cannot afford to have that here. And, you know, there were 70 grocery stores in Quebec closed due to COVID. And if our store closed in this community, it would have a severe impact on the community as well. The tourist season wasn't here this summer, and it kind of reminded me of what business was like back in the 80s when there was no Internet, there was no bridge, there wasn't a lot of tourism infrastructure. If a car came up the street with plates from off-island, you'd look to see where it was from, you know, because the tourist season now is very robust. But it reminded me of what it was like 35 years ago when there just weren't a lot of people here, and there wasn't a lot of infrastructure to support them. It was a very simple summer. Strangely enough, our business is very good. There's great winners and losers in this economy right now. The airline industry and the tourism industry is... is down, but the grocery business and the building supply business is way up. We missed all our summer residents and tourists who are very valuable to us and a very important part of our community. But because local people aren't travelling, there's been an offset there that's been more than the tourist business.

WOMAN [Over P.A.] Aidan to cash, please. Aidan.

[A price gun beeps]

ALAN MCPHEE: I'm not optimistic for 2021. I don't think we're going to be back to anything close to normal. I think the cruise business is shot. I think the air travel business is shot. I don't believe we'll have vaccine distribution anywhere near the level it's got to be. We just have to do what it takes to survive and to take care of ourselves and each other. And keep our eye on the ball for the... for the long run.

MATT GALLOWAY: You heard Alan MacPhee there talking about the ferry to the Magdalen Islands. Before the pandemic, you might grab an ice cream from Shirley's on your way to the ferry, maybe stop at the Bluefin family restaurant just off Main Street. It's the sky blue wood building. It's got an unassuming sign out front. At least, that's what it used to look like. Amber Jenkins was the owner of the Bluefin. Amber, good morning.

AMBER JENKINS: Good morning.

MATT GALLOWAY: Tell me about the Bluefin. Your connection to this place goes goes back a while.

AMBER JENKINS: It goes back a long while. The Bluefin was established over 45 years ago in the town. And when I was 16, that was my first job.

MATT GALLOWAY: So you go from working at the Bluefin [laughing] to eventually owning the Bluefin. How did that come to pass?

AMBER JENKINS: Eventually, yeah. I had been living in Fort McMurray and working and kind of travelling back and forth. And I left Fort McMurray due to the wildfire. And when I left, there was an opportunity to buy the Bluefin when I arrived home. So after I thought about it for a little while, I did that. I had never done anything like that before. I stayed in the industry after I had that first job, no matter where I was, because I loved it. But I had never been an owner, and it was.. it was a big decision to make.

MATT GALLOWAY: For people who've never been, I mean, describe the vibe of the Bluefin. What was it like?

AMBER JENKINS: Obviously, I wasn't around when it had originally been established, but it was big and open. The dining room would seat a hundred people if you needed it to. The walls were all barnboard wood. Local families would fill the dining room any given Sunday. That was probably our busiest day of the week. And also, tourists, returning tourists, always found their way back there. It was definitely a welcoming atmosphere for sure.

MATT GALLOWAY: So if you go back a year or so, when did you realize that things were starting to change?

AMBER JENKINS: In the middle of March, in our province, the entire island had been kind of watching the national news and the global news. And then, eventually, around March 15th, things were starting to get a little scarier. And by the 18th of March, our dining rooms were closed down. So that impacted my business a great deal. And everybody was shell-shocked. Every owner that I knew really had to pivot fast and think, what am I going to do now? So it didn't go in very many phases. It was just within a week we were closed.

MATT GALLOWAY: You use that word pivot, [chuckling] which is this word that everybody has used over the course of this year to try and figure out how to go from here to here and become something else. What was that like for you trying to pivot to an operation where you could still, you know, bring some money in, but you have to abide by all of the health guidelines that you mentioned that were put out?

AMBER JENKINS: Pivot is like the number one word of any business owner in 2020. It's our favourite word to use. If you don't use that word or you don't do exactly that, you won't make it. It was my birthday, the day the dining room closed down. So I took two days off and tried to evaluate what I was going to do because I really didn't know what I was going to do. It was a huge place that demanded a lot of revenue to keep going. Like, it didn't... I had no idea what to do. So after thinking about it and discussing it with my partner, who's also familiar with the industry and what it would have taken, the province had already decided that although dining rooms were closed down, it would be takeout only, I was terrified for my staff safety, and I was also terrified for my business's livelihood. So when it came to making decisions, I did a massive layoff and I left myself to run the entire place.

MATT GALLOWAY: How did you wrap your head around this?

AMBER JENKINS: Well, I'm a silver lining type of person, so if I knew that nobody would have a job to come back to if... If we didn't do something, having my staff go home for an undetermined amount of time, I rationalized that because I was in fear of their safety. And I also believed that maybe this won't last forever.

MATT GALLOWAY: The take out goes well and, you know, it keeps the business kind of afloat. What happened on the 6th of May?

AMBER JENKINS: On the 6th of May, COVID wasn't over. Everybody was in our first phase of the lockdown on Prince Edward Island. We we had a fire at the Bluefin, and it destroyed the entire building.

MATT GALLOWAY: Oh, my goodness. How did you learn about this?

AMBER JENKINS: I was with my family at the time, and a local messaged me on Facebook Messenger, that platform, and told me the building was on fire. That was the first I'd heard of it, 7:30 in the evening.

MATT GALLOWAY: What do you remember about how you reacted?

AMBER JENKINS: Well, I grew up in a place called Little Pond, about 15 minutes outside of the town, so I drove very, very fast and I got to the town limits and seeing the smoke and the fire. And my phone, you know, like when you think back on things like this, my phone rang so many times during that drive because people were trying to make sure that I was inside the building.

MATT GALLOWAY: Yeah.

AMBER JENKINS: And that still gives me goose bumps because there was so many people that was very concerned. And likewise, myself, I was contacting the only two people that could have possibly been in there because once I could establish that they were safe, that was the most important thing.

MATT GALLOWAY: Do you know what caused the fire?

AMBER JENKINS: We do not know what caused the fire. It was a really difficult fire to fight, and it was a really difficult fire to determine where it started because on the 6th, it burned down, and on the 7th, it burned down again. It started again at about 2:00 in the afternoon the following day. Something had reignited, and that completely destroyed the rest of the building, yeah.

MATT GALLOWAY: And you'd been... I mean, you were with your family, as you mentioned, you've been going through a lot outside of work. I don't know how much you want to talk about that, but I mean, there was a lot going on in your life before even the fire caught on.

AMBER JENKINS: I had been serving the public, so I didn't feel comfortable, you know, serving the public on a takeout model with very little knowledge of how COVID spread or if I could still be a danger to my family. So I didn't spend very much time around them, and that was difficult in its own sense. So just everything like to comfort someone. We had a very tragic death in the family, to comfort each other. It was a difficult time for so much to happen because COVID eliminated the idea of hugging, and it was a hard year to lose anyone or anything because it was a hard year to comfort people.

MATT GALLOWAY: In a small community, what did it mean going through all of this with people? One of the things we know just in speaking with people across the country is that in small communities, in particular, people kind of rally around in moments of tragedy and difficulty. Did you see that support and feel that support from people in your community.

AMBER JENKINS: For sure, yep! All I really did feel was support and love and as comfort... as much comfort as they could provide given the circumstances. There was a... a lot of sadness, but there was also a lot of gratitude.

MATT GALLOWAY: What did you do next?

AMBER JENKINS: It was May, and we come from a fishing family as well, so everybody was preparing for a fishing season. And I definitely needed to take the advice of the loved ones around me that told me to take some time to think about what's next, but also take some time for yourself, because I had a huge loss to grieve.

MATT GALLOWAY: Yeah.

AMBER JENKINS: So I did that.

MATT GALLOWAY: And then you decide you're going to open another place. Tell me a little bit about that.

AMBER JENKINS: The new restaurant that we opened in December, the beginning of December, is called Straight Goods, and we actually moved into a smaller space. It's an entirely new restaurant. It's an entirely new concept. It was decided that because we're still very much in COVID that to build the restaurant around an idea of a lot of takeout, or in the event that a second wave, or a third wave, or a fourth wave even will make it so we cannot open our dining room, one with a smaller seating area and menu items that can be taken out well.

MATT GALLOWAY: What have you learnt about yourself in the last year?

AMBER JENKINS: What I've learned the most is that I definitely needed to slow down a little bit. I needed to take more time for myself. I also learned a great deal about the community that we come from. The support that the Bluefin had was unbelievably humbling, but the craziest thing was the way that people came out for us whenever we opened in Fortune. It's... it's about 10 minutes from the old restaurant. I see a lot of familiar faces. I see new ones. And people talk about it. And they call it the old Bluefin. They call it straight goods. They call it the new place. Whatever the case may be.

MATT GALLOWAY: We're calling this... This kind of little road trip that we're on "Canada's Road Ahead". What is the road ahead for you in 2021, given everything that you've gone through? There's a lot that's happened and there's a lot that's coming up for you as well.

AMBER JENKINS: The road ahead is just I'm not convinced that we will be in this situation with COVID-19 forever. I think that on Prince Edward Island, we live in such a great province where we're able to travel around, and masks are mandatory, but we can be amongst the people that we love and not every other province has that.

MATT GALLOWAY: Yeah.

AMBER JENKINS: I'm so happy that we're here. But the road ahead is is full of opportunity, despite COVID-19 and despite the fire. I'm certain of that.

MATT GALLOWAY: And you're getting married.

AMBER JENKINS: And I'm getting married in March.

MATT GALLOWAY: Congratulations. That's amazing.

AMBER JENKINS: [laughing] Thank You!

MATT GALLOWAY: 2021 Will be better than 2020, I think. [both laughing].

AMBER JENKINS: I think it'll be better, yeah.

MATT GALLOWAY: So when I roll into the Straight Goods, and I sit down, what do I have to order?

AMBER JENKINS: You have to order breaded veggies. That recipe has been handed down for the last number of years in the Souris area, and you have to get them. They're served with sour cream. Some people ask for them with Ranch. You have to get fish and chips. We have a lobster roll on the menu in the spring. Yeah, those are some of the good ones.

MATT GALLOWAY: I'll eat all of it. I can't wait. It's great to talk to you. Good luck.

AMBER JENKINS: Thank you.

MATT GALLOWAY: Amber Jenkins and her fiancee, Jordan Dennis, run Straight Goods. It's a restaurant just outside of Souris, P.E.I. They have been relying on their community to help them stay afloat after a very difficult year. But there are some businesses here on the eastern tip of P.E.I that just can't function without those visitors from out of town. [Seagulls bray] Businesses like the tuna charters.

MAN: [laughing] Oh!

MATT GALLOWAY: In recent years, tourists with deep pockets, mostly from the United States, come up to P.E.I. In the hopes of hooking the big one.

MAN: There's the leader!

MAN#2: Oh, there you go! There's the big boy. He's a big one!

MAN: Oh, look at the size of the back on him!

MATT GALLOWAY: Captain Troy Bruce is one half of Bruce Brothers Charters based out of North Lake, just north of Souris. Troy, good morning.

TROY BRUCE: Good morning, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: How much business would he have normally done this past year taking people out to fish for tuna?

TROY BRUCE: Probably combined amongst all the boats, you know, 100-plus days is a typical year. [phone rings] 2020 We did three three, three days, yeah.

MATT GALLOWAY: Oh, my goodness!

TROY BRUCE: So --

MATT GALLOWAY: I mean, it's... I don't mean to ask about money, but that's a huge drop in money coming in.

TROY BRUCE: It's substantial, yes. Yeah, it is quite a.. quie a change. You know, typically we're busy. Our busiest is September, early October, with a few scattered days, you know, in late July and August. So, yeah, it was... it was a big impact on all of us and not just our business, but the other charter operators on the island, too. It was quite a hit.

MATT GALLOWAY: Tell me a bit about the clients that book these trips with you. I mean, how would you describe them?

TROY BRUCE: Our clients, for the most part, are wealthy people with, you know, a lot of disposable income. Biggest portion of our clientele are international, with the bulk of them being from the US. But we've hosted people from New Zealand, Australia, Asia, Europe, from all over the world. So when they come here, they just don't spend money on the boat. They spend it on... on everything around the community, at the airports getting here, and the car rentals, and Amber's business, and, you know, local accommodation, so.

MATT GALLOWAY: It's not a cheap trip.

TROY BRUCE: No, it's not, no. We've never formally done any type of survey to, you know, indicate what these guys spend on a day. But, you know, it's in excess per guy I'd say probably a thousand dollars a day is what they're spending, yeah.

MATT GALLOWAY: So if you go back a year or so, I mean, I think a lot of us remember that week around the middle of March when it seemed like the floor just fell out, and everything changed kind of overnight. What was that for you? You have these bookings, and then the pandemic strikes. What happened?

TROY BRUCE: Some of our older clientele that we talk to typically on a monthly basis, just because we're more friends now, you know, said, well, we'll see, we'll wait and see what happens come September or August. And, hopefully, you know, we'll be able to get in with maybe some rapid testing, and the border with the Canada and the U.S. will open, you know? And then we said, yes, that may open. But, you know, the border to get into P.E.I. is another issue. So we just basically played it month by month. And when it came to the point of telling them, you know, you know, guys, this is not going to happen, most of our clients just rolled everything over to '21. So, hopefully, this fall, there'll be something in place to get tourism going again, whether it's rapid testing, you know, to get into the province or whatever. And, you know, if that happens, then we're going to have a busy year.

MATT GALLOWAY: In the meantime, though, what does that mean for a small business owner like yourself? Again, you know, it's not about specific dollars, but that's a big drop in income. How... how do you, you know, not start to fret about keeping the lights on?

TROY BRUCE: [laughing] Well, it's a... it's a big drop in income. It's... it's not our primary fishery. I should point that out. That's all of us that do charter fishing. We're all, first and foremost, commercial lobster fishermen. So, you know, we've already had our lobster season under our belt, which ended in, you know, the first week of July last year, catches were good, prices were reduced, but we still managed a season out of it. And so we weren't... we're not 100 per cent, we're not even 60 per cent dependent on the charter fishery. It's just kind of a supplemental fishery for us. So it hurt the bottom book, but it didn't affect anybody's boat payments or anything like that.

MATT GALLOWAY: How are you feeling about... about the summer that's a few months away. Are you optimistic?

TROY BRUCE: I am going to be optimistic, yes.

MATT GALLOWAY: [both laughing] You're going to be optimistic. You're not optimistic yet?

TROY BRUCE: Not yet, no. I'm not yet. I'm hoping that the government will come out with something that will... will allow our clients to have proof of negative results that will allow people to travel, you know, that's... and our guys are optimistic. Our clients are, you know, they're aching to get here. And... and a lot of them say right now it's not even so much about the fishing. It's I get it out of New York City for three days. I get away from the hustle and bustle, and I get to chill out with you guys. The fish is a bonus.

MATT GALLOWAY: It's been a hard year. And I mean, you heard Amber talking about the restaurant and the community pulling together there. People can pull together, but it's still been hard. How do you think people are holding up?

TROY BRUCE: Being from a small community, and Amber and I are from the same community, and we're cousins to boot. [Matt laughs] So everybody is... they're cautious. Being from where we are and being isolated most of the time anyway, because we live on a small island. Things changed for us, but not near as much as the rest of the country or the rest of the world. I think our community realizes that we... they need to get the tourism sector opened. But at the same time, they don't want to torture people in here from away. So it's kind of contradicting everything, but one guy described us as being a very, very large cruise ship. If we ever got... we ever got a community spread, we're in trouble, so.

MATT GALLOWAY: Is there anything... I mean, it's weird to talk about a silver lining in the midst of a pandemic, but one of the things that this year has done is it's caused people to kind of stop and maybe think about what's important and what's not important, and what they thought was important maybe isn't that important anymore. And there are things that you can do with and there are things that you really need to wrap your arms around. Has there been at all a silver lining for you coming out of this?

TROY BRUCE: Yeah, you know, I think this... this past summer, being that we've been fairly busy with the charter industry since 2010, we've never really got to enjoy our island summer. You know, you wouldn't get to go to the beach with your... with your kids or your wife or anything. So... so, you know, that's... this summer, I think a lot of us took advantage of the quieter time and got to spend more time with our immediate families and just kind of chill out and take a breather, I guess. So it might... it might help reenergize. I don't think COVID will deter anybody from not coming back. If anything, you know, we've had three charter enquiries this week already from new clientele. I think once... once the borders open and people are allowed to travel after being isolated or stuck at home for a year, you're going to see a lot of people on the move. [both laughing]

MATT GALLOWAY: I wish you the best of luck. It's great to talk to you. And I hope things clear up. And as you say, people get on the move sooner rather than later. Troy, thank you very much.

TROY BRUCE: It's been my pleasure, Matt, thank you.

MATT GALLOWAY: Take care of yourself. Bye-bye.

TROY BRUCE: Yeah, you too. Bye now.

MATT GALLOWAY: Captain Troy Bruce is the co-owner of Bruce Brothers Charters in North Lake, Prince Edward Island, coming up after your regional update.

KATHY ALEXANDER: My name is Kathy Alexander. And I remember that I was in grade nine having just discovered good grungy music. I had pooled my allowance and saved up for a very, very long time. Finally saved up enough money to buy my first pair of Doc Martens. And I took the HSR bus from Stony Creek Mountain all the way to Rock 'N' Tees in downtown Hamilton and came home with my first pair of black three holes.

MATT GALLOWAY: That's a familiar story. Kathy Alexander. Mine were eight holes, black, yellow laces. More on the staying power of Doc Martens coming up in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway. And this is "The Current".

[Music: Theme]

André Picard on vaccine procurement and Alberta’s new quarantine rules; Dr. Martens hit the London stock market

Guests: Andre Picard, Elizabeth Semmelhack, Andrew Groves

MATT GALLOWAY: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to "The Current".

STEPHEN LECCE: While this has not been easy on Ontario parents and students and on our education staff, I want to be clear that safety is what has and what will drive our decisions every step of the way. Ontario is ready to reopen our schools because it is safe. As kids return to school, schools will be even safer, as we've introduced new and tougher measures to our plan to protect kids from COVID-19.

MATT GALLOWAY: It has been another busy week on the COVID health beat, from the debate over opening schools in Ontario, to getting vaccines to Canadians, to new data on Sputnik Five, Russia's entry into COVID inoculation. André Picard is The Globe and Mail's health columnist. Andre, good morning.

ANDRE PICARD: Good morning.

MATT GALLOWAY: Let's start in Ontario. We just heard that little bit there from Stephen Lecce, the minister of education. In 12 days, not that parents are counting down,[laughing] students in that province who want to go back to in-person school will be able to. What do you make of the decision, and what do you make of the decision now?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, parents are obviously very frustrated about this. They want kids get back to school. In other provinces, kids are in school. But there's a real, again, Ontario has always struggled with communication. There's a lack of clarity on what are the thresholds? What are the metrics for schools being safe? We keep hearing them say, oh, it's safe, it's going to be better. But how are you measuring that? And there's really not any data that we're collecting, and there's not information being shared. So you can understand the frustration and the confusion of parents.

MATT GALLOWAY: Parents and teachers have been calling for, and this is across the country, calling for things like better ventilation in schools, more asymptomatic testing so that we actually know whether the virus is spreading or not within those schools. Have those things been put into place?

André Picard: In very small measure. You know, it's very difficult to fix ventilation in 50-year-old schools across the province overnight. So little things are being done. But again, there's not a lot of clarity on what's being done where. So a lot of guesswork. And when you are... when you don't have information, that's when people get anxious. And there's a lot of anxiety over this.

MATT GALLOWAY: Do we know whether, to your point, I mean, Ontario is the last province to bring kids back into the classroom at this scale. Do we know whether it's safe to have kids back in school? If you take a look at what's happening across the country?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, safe is a big word.

MATT GALLOWAY: Sure is, yeah!

ANDRE PICARD: Depends what you mean, right? So we know that there is some COVID spread in school. We know the kids don't get that sick. So I think what we have to say to people is that school is important. We're going to make it a priority. We're going to try and make schools as safe as possible. And then we're going to have metrics. If there's X number of cases or percentage, we're going to close them down. It's not about eliminating risk. That's not possible, but we're going to mitigate it, and we're going to see this is a priority in society. That's the best we can do. We can't say it's perfectly safe, but we also have to remember what are kids doing if they're not in school? They're not necessarily safer. There's a lot of evidence that in that controlled environment, they do much better when it comes to COVID.

MATT GALLOWAY: A lot of concern, obviously, around this when it comes to the new variants of COVID. In Alberta, health officials this week announced that some people will have to quarantine for upwards of 24 days. Again, this is around the spread of these variants. Does the science justify that approach? That seems like a long time to be in quarantine.

ANDRE PICARD: Yeah, I don't think there's a lot of science there. I think, again, there's a mixture of politics and science. What they're trying to do is to encourage people to stay in the quarantine hotels. They're trying to isolate people who are infected with variants, a small number that we know of so far. So try and eliminate community spread. So if you're saying if you go home and you stay with your family, then they're going to have to stay home an extra 14 days on top of the 10. So I think it's just a dissuasive measure more than science. There's not really any evidence that the variants are more infectious for a longer period. And we know they're more infectious, but not for a longer period of time.

MATT GALLOWAY: We're eleven months into this pandemic, and we've had conversations over the last couple of days with doctors and then nurses about being in some ways beyond the breaking point. What do you think we need to be thinking about in the wake of those stories that we heard?

ANDRE PICARD: Yeah, those heartbreaking stories you've been publishing... broadcasting the last couple of days. It really tells us how bad things are. You know, people on the front lines, we have to give them some hope. So we have to, you know, embrace the vaccines, make sure that people get the vaccines as quickly as possible. We have to have these lockdown measures. This is all about keeping hospitals operational. We can't magically fix what's going on for the overwork of nurses and doctors and personal support workers. But we can try and keep the numbers down. Again, it's about mitigation. That's the best thing we can do for them at this point.

MATT GALLOWAY: For a lot of people, hope is that vaccine. And there has been mounting criticism. You and I have spoken about this before, but it seems like things are coming to a boiling point over Ottawa's procurement efforts. Front page of the globe and Mail had a scathing editorial about this. The frustration seems to be mounting. Do you think that that frustration is fair?

ANDRE PICARD: Some of it is fair. Like no one can argue that Ottawa's done a great job with vaccine procurement. But I think we have to within that we have to figure out what is under the control and what is it? I think the... the past was under their control. There are mistakes made. We didn't have domestic production. Maybe we waited a little long to sign contracts. Those things are not fixable now. They're in the past. In the present, there's a lot of anger about X number of vaccines coming this week and next week. I think, to be fair, that's out of Ottawa's control. I think this is really a big shell game from the pharma companies that are promising all kinds of things to different countries and then cutting back. I don't think Ottawa can control the short term. So we have to focus on that medium term. And I think where the prime minister is right, he keeps saying we're going to get six million doses by the end of March. That's what we have to focus on. We can't focus on tomorrow or next week because we just don't know. The stock is not predictable. But in the in the medium term, it is. And the longer-term, September, you know, we're going to get the majority of Canadians vaccinated by September. Those have to be our goals. And I think the recriminations for not being ready. Those can come later. But right now, we really have to focus on whatever vaccine we get, get it into people's arms, get ready for when big supplies come in and then try and make up for lost time.

MATT GALLOWAY: Some of those doses are coming through COVAX, the global vaccine sharing Initiative. It's told Canada that this nation would receive between one-point-nine and three-point-two-million doses of AstraZeneca before the end of June. Canada's the only G7 country getting vaccines from COVAX. This is meant largely to help low and middle-income countries. We've spoken with the CEO of Gavi, Dr Seth Berkley, a couple of times about the importance of getting those vaccines to countries that perhaps couldn't afford to buy them. What do you make of the fact that Canada is going to get vaccines through COVAX?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, I personally think that's unconscionable. I don't think we should be stealing from the poor to... to alleviate some of our political pressures at home. COVAX, technically, yes, we can request those vaccines, et cetera, et cetera. But it's designed, as you said, to give vaccines to developing countries. Canada should be doing that. Getting a million vaccines or two million from COVAX is not going to resolve our problems. It's just going to cause harm elsewhere in the world. So I think, you know, there's an axiom in public health that's used often that nobody is safe until everyone is safe. So we have to have more of a global view on this. We can't just be selfish and worry about our politics. Let's get all these vaccines for Canadians and do it at the expense of Africans. There's only been about 230,000 doses administered in all of Africa, its 56 countries. Canada has done more than a million. We're not doing great, but it's all relative. So I don't think this is reverse-Robin Hood act looks good on us.

MATT GALLOWAY: Data coming out of the University of Oxford this morning suggesting that more people have now been vaccinated against COVID-19 that have actually been infected by the virus. That's good news. And it feels like we're on the right path in that way.

ANDRE PICARD: Yeah, it's a nice little milestone, but, you know, we have to get much bigger numbers. It's not a direct comparison, but it is... yeah, it gives us some hope.

MATT GALLOWAY: Last thing I want to ask you about is this weekend. I don't know whether you're a football fan or not, but the Super Bowl is happening on Sunday. People often gather in bars and restaurants and people's homes to watch this sporting event and eat food and maybe wager on the games or something. Do you worry that the Super Bowl could be a super spreader event in the midst of a pandemic? There's concern in British Columbia, for example, around who's going to show up, perhaps in the restaurants that are open there.

ANDRE PICARD: Yeah, again, I think reminders have to be made that like we did at Christmas, like we did at Easter, we have to hold back, not gather in groups, even if we love football. Maybe this is the year to watch it alone. I know I am a football fan. My friends and I are going to be on Zoom watching our own TVs and doing it that way. You have to find alternatives that the pandemic has forced us to to change the way we behave. And I think we can sacrifice a Super Bowl Sunday for one year.

MATT GALLOWAY: Who are you pulling for in the Super Bowl?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, I have to pull for Kansas City.

MATT GALLOWAY: [laughing] If only because of Laurent Duvernay-Tardif, and his amazing story here in Canada.

ANDRE PICARD: Exactly.

MATT GALLOWAY: Andre, great to talk to you, as always. Thank you.

ANDRE PICARD: Thank you.

MATT GALLOWAY: André Picard, the Global and Mail's health columnist and football fan, who knew? This is "The Current" on CBC Radio One. My name is Matt Galloway.

["Uniforms" by Pete Townsend/Punk Rock].

MATT GALLOWAY: "Doctor Martens on your feet". Pete Townsend with a song called "Uniforms" from 1982. Back then, you might have had the same uniform as Pete, wild hair, ripped jeans, braces, suspenders, but if you weren't wearing a pair of Doc Martins, were you really a punk? For kids of all generations, the moment you first got your hands on the boots with the yellow stitching is not a moment you tend to forget.

MIKE LAYTON: I bought them would have been somewhere around '92, '93, probably, about 14 years old. Got them at a store down on Queen Street, no longer there and can't remember the name, but 10 hole, cherry red Docs with black laces, big yellow stitching.

MATT GALLOWAY: That's Toronto city councillor Mike Layton remembering his first pair. And that those boots were more than just shoes.

MIKE LAYTON: Like, it was the style at the time. I had long hair, wore a dirty lumber jacket and ripped jeans and like the Docs were part of the outfit. And I had an older sister who had gone through that phase of life as well. And so it was a rite of passage for me. They were pretty comfortable, but I wouldn't say the most comfortable pair of shoes I ever owned. But there were a lot of different styles. Everyone had their own thing. And there was a lot to choose from. I suppose that kind of added to the experience. You got to customise them and pick up the pair that was a reflection of your personality.

MATT GALLOWAY: Liisa Ladouceur, the author of "Encyclopaedia Gothica" and a Goth and punk style vlogger, also remembers her dogs.

LIISA LADOUCEUR: So the great thing about Doc Martens for me was that they were cool, but they were also comfortable. Docs you could just you could wear them anywhere. And I did. And when I would go on vacation backpacking, I didn't bring extra boots. I bought one pair of boots. And at one point I was living in Mexico for six months just in my Doc Martens. So going to the beach, Doc Marten, [laughing] you know, going out for dinner, it was like you kind of felt ridiculous at the beach. But, hey, you know, it's punk rock.

MATT GALLOWAY: Seventy-three years after they were first invented, you can now buy a piece of that aerosol success for yourself. The company went live on the London Stock Exchange this week. Yes, stocks and docs, which does not sound particularly punk rock, but maybe that's just me. [laughing] Elizabeth Semmelhack is creative director and senior curator at the Bata Shoe Museum in Toronto. Andrew Groves, professor of fashion design at the University of Westminster in the UK. Good morning to you both.

ELIZABETH SEMMELHACK Good morning.

ANDREW GROVES: Good morning.

MATT GALLOWAY: Andrew, I think a lot of us remember the first pair of Docs. I came into Toronto as a teenager and went into some wild store and came out with a pair of boots that I thought I'd wear for the rest of my life. Do you remember saving up your money and buying a pair of those boots?

ANDREW GROVES: Yeah, absolutely, I think that a rite of passage for everybody. Mine was in the early 1980s and the time of ska, and the band Madness and going up to Camden Town to buy a pair from a shop called Holtz. So that was actually a pair of 20 hole boots at the time.

MATT GALLOWAY: Sorry, 20 holes?!. So there's like 20 different holes!

ANDREW GROVES: [laughing] Twenty holes!

MATT GALLOWAY: How long did it take you to lace up the 20 hole boots? [chuckling]

ANDREW GROVES: They were a nightmare. I have to say! [Elizabeth laughs] And I think that the thing of youth wanting to look amazing, but not realizing what that takes. [Matt chuckles] So I probably used to take about 15 minutes to put on.

MATT GALLOWAY: in the Bata Shoe Museum, Elizabeth, are there Docs in the collection there?

ELIZABETH SEMMELHACK There are. We don't have a lot, but we do have a number of representative pairs, yes, we do.

MATT GALLOWAY: Representative pairs. What do you think that they represent?

ELIZABETH SEMMELHACK You know, I think that they represent overarchingly sort of an idea of rebellion, sometimes disenfranchisement. And they obviously are linked to these larger historical moments, be they punk, you know, grunge sort of has a moment with them. Goth fashion makes a lot of them. And so they've... they've had different moments. But each of those moments, I think, connects to ideas of rebellion, although they did start out as just a, you know, a form of work shoes.

MATT GALLOWAY: Andrew, how much lore is tied up in these shoes? You talked about Madness and the ska movement. What is it that Docs symbolize aside from, you know, a pair of boots that you have on your feet?

ANDREW GROVES: Well, I think they're really interesting because I think they're clouds of contradictions, because obviously, you know, originally they were designed as a safety shoe for police, policemen, you know, very working class. But then they're also actually rebellious as well. And, you know, they've been warned by the far-left and the far-right, quite ordinary looking, but subtly erotic. So I think.. I think it's one of those objects that you can transform by the wearer and their attitude. And those are very rare. And like you were saying earlier, you know, to hear that there's other people saying they very much remember the first time they bought them, they are a transformative garment or object. And I think they're very rare in fashion.

MATT GALLOWAY: How can they be transformative? I mean, what happens when you put the boots on? Who do you become?

ANDREW GROVES: Well, I think it is the idea that, you know, putting those on, I think, especially when you think you're a teenager, you're going to become an adult. And with that, it's going to give you all sorts of things, you know? So they play into ideas of masculinity, aggression, rebellious, all of those things. I think that as a teenager growing up, you see youth culture and subculture represent, whichever the moment, there's a pair of Doc Martens that goes along with them.

MATT GALLOWAY: Elizabeth, they've also had... and Andrew talks about aggression. They've had negative connotations associated at various points in their history with skinhead movements, with racist movements as well. How did that develop, that link?

ELIZABETH SEMMELHACK You know, when the Doc Marten brand is brought over to England, they get sort of adopted by the mods. The mods break into multiple different groups. Some of them are very welcoming and inclusive, and some are increasingly nationalistic. And so because the boot itself becomes sort of linked to ideas of the British working class, skinheads begin to use them as a uniform of both masculinity, the working class and the British nationalism. And so for the very fringe elements of that group, they become the sort of neo-Nazi skinheads. And so that's really where that association begins.

MATT GALLOWAY: Do they still have that association today, Andrew? I remember when I got my boots, I mean, part of it was you had to do this sort of like on the street decoding of who had different kinds of boots, and in particular, who had different colours of laces. And there were certain places that people believed meant certain things in the boots that they were wearing. [laughing] Is that still the same thing now, Andrew?

ANDREW GROVES: Well, I mean, two points. One I think is that uniform, so you can see anything that suddenly gets adopted and becomes a uniform. You can look at the Proud Boys and how they've adopted the Fred Perry shirts. And it's very scary to see lots of people dressed the same because of the connotations that has. And then, I think there's also that myth or semi-myth that comes from, you know, these sorts of cultural ideas that certain laces mean certain things, which can be, I think, interesting, because, you know, they mean different things maybe to a straight community than a gay community. So I think that meaning can be subtly played with. And some of that is mythologized, and some of it almost doesn't matter where it comes from. It then becomes true.

MATT GALLOWAY: How, Elizabeth, do Docs move from being a symbol of anti-fashion to something that's very [Elizabeth chuckles] fashionable to something that's on a stock market and a company that's worth something like five billion dollars?

ELIZABETH SEMMELHACK You know, I think that in the 1990s, they begin to... their reach begins to broaden and they kind of become a general statement about youthful rebellion. They begin to distance themselves from these, you know, more complicated political statements. And... and then, you know, today you see Doc Martens doing a lot of collaborations. Marc Jacobs, of course, famously put them on the runway in the '90s, sort of elevating that the high fashion platform. And I think one of the things that's interesting about this focus on collaboration's, right? It's linked to what's happened within sneakers and sneaker culture. The risk, I think, is that if Doc Martens are used broadly now to add a kind of aggressive statement to an otherwise innocuous fashion statement, what happens when Doc Martens becomes so connected to ideas of high fashion that that currency is lost? And so, you know, I've talked too about the Converse All-Star, which is unchanging in its form. You know, it came out in 1917, and it's still... and its usefulness is the fact that it is unchanging and it can be used kind of as an anti-fashion statement. And Doc Martens, I think, is going through this interesting moment where which way will it go and will it lose its currency as the footwear of rebellion if it treads down this road too far?

MATT GALLOWAY: I mean, I think those of us of a certain vintage, we love to look in the rear-view mirror and say, oh, it was way better back then, [elizabeth chuckles] or it meant more back then. And those boots were something. Is there anything I mean, maybe it's the Converse, but is there anything, and I ask this to you as a shoe historian in some ways, that represents that sense of rebellion, that when you put those shoes or those boots on, it meant the same as it did when you put the Docs on back in the 80s and the 90s?

ELIZABETH SEMMELHACK Well, I think that they are... I mean, that history isn't erased, that history is still there. And I think that that thrill is still related, right? But we're also seeing, particularly with Gen Z, like a nostalgia Bratz dolls, which typically this... this look, this quote/unquote sassy look, features heavy platform footwear that sort of rests on Doc Martens. And so I think that right now, a lot of younger people interested in fashion are looking back towards that moment when the Doc Martin itself started to... Or its meaning started to really splinter where it gets used by Marc Jacobs, or it gets somewhat a feature of grunge where it's still have this punk legacy, where the Gothic Lolita look incorporates it because it's like a 19th-century lace-up boot. And so I think that Doc Martens are having a bit of a moment related to those complexities from, you know, 20 years ago.

MATT GALLOWAY: Who do you see... You live in Manchester, Andrew. Who do you see on the streets of Manchester wearing DocS these days?

ANDREW GROVES: Well, it's sort of everyone, because I think, you know, they've become the boot of the working class, you know, historically, so, you know, just people that don't really care about what they wear and also high fashion. So I think, you know, it's very few brands that have been able to do that. So you can say Levi's managed to do that or maybe Raybans with sunglasses, but, you know, To become the iconic brand that everyone wears, you know, is one of the reasons they're being able to float themselves on the stock market because they have a meaning to everyone. So, therefore, everyone feels they have a personal investment, even if it's not a financial investment into the brand.

MATT GALLOWAY: Does part of you cringe when the boots that you used to love, maybe you still love them, when you see them floated on the stock market, as you say?

ANDREW GROVES: No, because I kind of think with all these brands, ultimately, they do belong to the... belong to the people who wear them. And I think those... whatever happens to the actual company that owns the rights and all of that, they actually belong to the people. It's up to the people, I think, ultimately to decide whether they still have that meaning or not. If they... if they still have that cultural meaning, then I think that's fine. And I think, you know, brands are very careful with what they do. So I think, you know, they're always thinking about how do any of those decisions, same with those partnerships they might be doing, how might they reflect their core customers as well? So they don't want to push them too far because they know they're going to lose those core customers.

MATT GALLOWAY: Do you have any pairs left?

ANDREW GROVES: Yes, I think I've got two for three pairs. I still got, you know, I've got the old ones I wear out because they've been warn for years, so they're really comfortable. I've got a pair that, you know, you can polish up and they look good with a suit. So I think they're always a good boot to be wearing. So, you know, I can't see, no matter what happens, I can't see them going out of fashion or anti-fashion. I think they're going to remain with us, you know, for another 60 years.

MATT GALLOWAY: Andrew, it's great to talk to you about this. Thank you very much.

ANDREW GROVES: Thank you.

MATT GALLOWAY: And Elizabeth, thank you for the historical perspective on this. I love it. Thanks.

ELIZABETH SEMMELHACK Absolutely. Bye.

MATT GALLOWAY: Elizabeth Semmelhack is the creative director for the Bata Shoe Museum in Toronto. Andrew Groves is a professor of fashion at the University of Westminster in the United Kingdom. We heard earlier from Toronto city councillor Mike Layton, remembering the day he bought his first pair of Docs. He also remembers the day he said goodbye to those boots.

MIKE LAYTON: Their ultimate demise is kind of a funny story because I was... I was a camp counsellor up at a nature science camp and somewhat northern Ontario. And they were pretty worn out by that stage. It was 96. And Kiss was coming back as a big musical epic rock band. And a group of councillors decided we were going to put on an epic lip-sync skit where we dressed up like Kiss. And I turned the boots using duct tape into a pair of platform shoes, glued and taped on giant pieces of wood underneath, and rocked them as platform shoes to a crowd of six to 15-year-olds while lip-synching "Rock And Roll All Night". So they ended well, perhaps a different style of music than they entered the world in. But they... they exited... exited my world well.

MATT GALLOWAY: Well, we would love to hear from you. As Elisabeth was hinting at, shoes and boots mean more than just things that you wear on your feet. There is a cultural history and cultural baggage that comes with them. Do you still have a pair of Docs? How many holes? What colour laces? Do you remember buying your first pair of Docs, saving up money, and perhaps as I did, heading into the big city from the country, being freaked out by the people that I saw in the stores, [laughing] to buy the boots that helped define in some ways who you wanted to be? We would love to hear your stories of Doc Martens. Tweet us: @TheCurrentCBC. Or send us an email: thecurrent@cbc.ca. We could not leave the program today without a nod to the band, as Andrew was saying, that helped enshrine Doc Martens into UK street style, the ska group Madness. They get the last word today, and you do what you like to do. But I might recommend that you dance in the kitchen or the car or in the living room or wherever you happen to be. I'm Matt Galloway thanks for listening to "The Current". Take care. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

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February 4, 2021 Episode Transcript

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