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The Current Transcript for February 3, 2021

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

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Prologue

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MAN: I am really excited that announce that we have signed a memorandum of understanding with Novavax to pursue the domestic manufacturing of its COVID-19 vaccine.

MATT GALLOWAY: From production delays to protectionism overseas, there is mounting frustration in getting the vaccines to this country that could help end this pandemic. And so, the federal government has announced a plan to produce vaccines here in Canada. Why now? And when would they actually end up in the arms of Canadians? We'll find out in 30 minutes. Also, this morning, it has been a hard year for Nova Scotia, from a mass shooting and a helicopter crash to the death of a service member in the Snowbirds to the pandemic. Stephen McNeal has had to lead his province from one tragedy to another. As the premier gets set to leave office this weekend, he's here to reflect on a difficult year and hopefully better days ahead. That's coming up in an hour. Plus, do you know who is harvesting your food, or more precisely, what?

MAN: How many percent of the farmers use the monkeys?

MAN#2: I think maybe [hard to make out].

MATT GALLOWAY: Why animal rights activists are drawing attention to the role of monkeys and harvesting coconuts in Thailand. We will start, though, with the worsening mental health of nurses. Almost a year into this pandemic, they, like the doctors we spoke with yesterday, are at the breaking point. Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. And this is "The Current".

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Nurses discuss pandemic’s impact on mental health

Guests: Meaghan Thumath, Brianna Stewart, Amy Archibald-Varley

[Pots and pans clang and bang]

MATT GALLOWAY: It was a way to say thank you, banging pots and pans each night in support of front line health care workers during COVID-19. The clamour has mostly stopped, but the work and the pandemic goes on. And as the pandemic drags out, it is taking a real toll. Three nurses are with me now to talk about that toll. Meaghan Thumath is a public health nurse in Vancouver. Brianna Stewart is the public health nurse in La Loche, Saskatchewan. And Amy Archibald-Varley is a nurse in the Niagara region of Ontario. Good morning to you all.

ALL: Good morning.

MATT GALLOWAY: There was a survey that was released yesterday, and it suggested that of 18,000 health care workers that were surveyed, nurses have been hardest hit over the course of this pandemic. Something like 37 per cent of those nurses surveyed said that they were suffering through poor mental health. Amy Archibald-Varley, does that sound familiar?

AMY ARCHIBALD-VARLEY: That sounds very familiar. And it's these numbers I don't think are going to get any better. Actually, the the Canadian Federation of Nurses Union actually put out a report last year talking about the mental health in nursing, and they talked about some really, really sad statistics. And there was something like one in three screened positive for major depressive disorder. Greater than one in four screened positive for general anxiety disorder and clinical burnout. And one in three reported suicidal thoughts. So really, I'm... I'm scared for my colleagues. I'm scared for even myself. Like, this is just a really difficult time.

MATT GALLOWAY: Brianna Stewart, I introduced you as the public health nurse in La Loche, Saskatchewan. That's a community of something like 5,000 people. What has COVID meant in terms of the expectations that are put on you as the public health nurse?

BRIANNA STEWART: Yeah, it's... it's a big responsibility. I have a lot of people relying on me here, and it is a community that... that needs a lot of public health services. And basically, being the only nurse here, I've really struggled with getting things done, and I'm doing my best. But COVID really takes up a lot of time, and it's an urgent situation that has to be dealt with. So it consumes most of my day, that's for sure.

MATT GALLOWAY: When you say it takes up a lot of time, I mean, how long are your workdays now?

BRIANNA STEWART: On a good week, I'm working regular hours, but lots of times, I'm working 10, 10-hour shifts depending on how many cases I'm getting in a day and so on.

MATT GALLOWAY: And there would be other things, I mean, again, as the public health nurse, there would be other things that would be expected of you. But... but in this pandemic, are those things pushed to the side because of the demands of COVID?

BRIANNA STEWART: Yeah, lots of times they are. When I'm having slow times when I'm not getting a lot of increase in cases, I do have time to get my immunizations done and things like that. But most of the time, yeah, it's just based on doing contact tracing and dealing with COVID issues, for sure.

MATT GALLOWAY: Meaghan Thumath, you know the effect of this pandemic firsthand because you got the virus early on in all of this. How are you doing now?

MEAGHAN THUMATH: Well, thanks... [chuckling] thanks for asking. I think, physically, I'm feeling much better. I had what many would call long-COVID where it did stay with me longer. I had the sort of experience of mostly with my breathing and just affecting that. But what... what's stayed with me now is really I think, yeah, the... the impact just on our workload. I work in the inner city in Vancouver, and the impact on the overdose crisis, just sort of these two areas coming together. I think that's... that's most of the stress for most of the nurses that work in public health in Vancouver in particular.

MATT GALLOWAY: How does what you went through shape how you deal with patients who would test positive for COVID, knowing in some ways, you know, what they're going through?

MEAGHAN THUMATH: I think it's given me a lot of empathy towards how easy it is to miss. Working in public health, you do a lot of contact tracing. And I think, you know, colleagues are like, oh, I can't believe this person went to work sick! These are colleagues that maybe didn't have COVID. And I'm like, well, it's really easy to do. In my case, at one point early on, you know, I just had a runny nose, and I thought I had allergies. And so having been through that experience of having to... it's so common amongst nurses and physicians that we come to work because we don't want to let our colleagues down. And we know that people will be short-staffed if we don't turn up. So it's so, so common for us to come to work when we're ill. In fact, I would say pre-Covid, that's very much part of the culture and the source of a lot of health care workers burnout, not taking time when... when we're sick. But having been that person and been the one where we had to contact trace, you know, your whole team, and being the person in the office that had potentially exposed her colleagues, it was really devastating. And but also now, I think gives me a lot of insight and empathy towards how what are the factors that underlie that when that happens with other workplaces?

MATT GALLOWAY: Was there a moment, and I'll ask you all of this, but... but Meaghan, with you, was there a moment when you realized that the toll of what you're describing in working on the front lines, that you could not separate that from... from the rest of your life, and that it had, you know, crept into your personal life?

MEAGHAN THUMATH: I think back to the first wave and my poor husband, I mean, I work with an incredible amount of colleagues from many different social work and outreach, and everybody's been facing this, not just nurses. But I do remember feeling as though the first wave was coming and our team, not just myself, but might not be able to stop it. And it felt like there was still a chance we could when the pressure of containment was there. And we were at the same time, unfortunately, wrapping up our renovation that we had to get into our house, obviously, [chuckling] only have the one house and needed a place to live. And we were trying to balance, like, is it safe for contractors to be there or not and all of those stresses. And my husband asked me as he was dropping me off at work to our public health department if what cabinets I wanted. And I just burst into tears, and lwas like, I can't decide the cabinets and, you know, those kind of moments where he had to escort me out of the coffee shop, actually, because I just was like sobbing, like, [chuckling] everyone's going to die. You just sort of realize, like, that's very unusual for me, and not... I pride myself in being very contained. I think that's a big part of nursing practice. You have to be there for your patients. You have to be there for your colleagues. And so to have, like, that level of breakdown around cabinets really showed me I was reaching kind of a breaking point.

MATT GALLOWAY: Amy, does at breaking point sound familiar? I mean, one of the things we hear is that there were, you know, upwards of 60 per cent of nurses, according to a couple of different studies, who've thought of calling it quits, of leaving a profession that they love because that containment that Meaghan was talking about just simply isn't possible. Does that sound familiar?

AMY ARCHIBALD-VARLEY: That sounds very familiar. And I think the numbers are going to continue to increase. Like, I have conversations with my colleagues on a daily basis about them telling me about whether... whether they're going to just hang out and just just wait it out and then they're going to leave. And even just something, you know, I think, you know, I'm going to do a couple of weeks here and then I'm going to quit. I actually know one colleague that is a good friend, and she's... she's already quit. And she's now looking for work to... work to move to the States. And I mean, I don't know if the situation's any better there, but the thing is, we need nurses here. And these are really good people. And it's just really scary to hear that, you know, they felt so under-supported, undervalued and not respected that they're just like, you know, what I've done. And... and I... I get that. I feel it, too. And just like what some of my other colleagues here on-line were saying is like it became real for me when my brother got COVID. He lives in Ohio. And it was... it was really hard because in the States, they were at almost 250,000 deaths at the time, and it was just not stopping. And I remember speaking to his wife, actually, and he ended up readmitted, going to the ICU. So I think for me, it's just like, we really need to tell people how important these public health measures are. And that if we don't get this under control, it's not going to go away. And we're all exhausted. We're all burnt out. But we need to do something radically different to... to just see some change. And and nurses are at the breaking point. I can't even say anymore that we're not. We're broken.

MATT GALLOWAY: Well, and I mean, the tragic result of that is one of the stories of... of last week where Stefanie Van Nguyen, who's a nurse in Ontario, died by suicide. She was 25 years old. What does that tell you, Amy, about... and you've hinted at this, but the need for those supports, mental health supports in particular for nurses?

AMY ARCHIBALD-VARLEY: Yeah, I've been... I feel like I've been screaming at the walls because there's so much more that I feel that can be done. And it's... it's hugely important, even pre-pandemic, but even more so now, like, I think that we do have some structures in place where there's EAP, but mental health benefits don't necessarily cover all nurses. So EAP is, sorry, I should say the Employee Assistance Program.

MATT GALLOWAY: Yeah.

AMY ARCHIBALD-VARLEY: It's something that all employees can have access to, but it's very limited, and it's very short. It's... it's for a very short term. It's not for a crisis situation. And some organizations really have poor benefits, some... some as... some as low as 500 dollars. That's not going to get you a lot of mental health support or mental health treatment. So I really urge for us to kind of look at what better can we do? Can we increase the benefits? Starbucks has 5,000 dollars a year for the employees, if they work a minimum of 20 hours, for mental health benefits. We've got to do better. We've got to... we... we have to do more. And mental health, it's something tangible. Some people tend to think about it as... as you know, if you can't see it, it's not there. But that's what hurts the most.

MATT GALLOWAY: Brianna, when Amy says that we have to do more, what more would you want to see to ensure that nurses like yourself are able to have somewhere to turn to take care of themselves and their own needs, as well as the needs of their patients in the midst of a pandemic?

BRIANNA STEWART: Yeah, I think there's a lot that needs to be done. There needs to be more services for us to use — like I've used the EPA, and I already used all of my sessions. And, you know, that's all done with now. But there's still a lot more I'm dealing with. So I think that needs to be done. And then also, support, like, [deep sigh] somehow getting us some more supports for time off and like being able to take care of ourselves, because I know in my case with being the only public health nurse, it's hard sometimes to get time off and be able to take care of myself when things are happening, and things need to be done. And, yeah, there's just not a lot of support for us here, especially in northern communities where we're usually short-staffed anyways.

MATT GALLOWAY: You've all talked about the exhaustion that you feel in the midst of this pandemic. Take a listen to Marissa Harrington. She's a master's student at the University of Victoria, and has been studying how the sleep patterns of nurses have changed over the course of this pandemic.

MARISSA HARRINGTON: We've seen that nurses are spending less time in REM sleep and more time in light sleep, which could potentially have consequences later on down the road as impacts of sleep quality, we know, do have potential negative health effects. Another thing that we've seen is in terms of heart rate and heart rate variability. Nurses are exhibiting a stressed cardiovascular state due to a heightened sympathetic or fight or flight response that's still apparent on days off.

MATT GALLOWAY: Does that sound familiar, Brianna?

BRIANNA STEWART: Yes, very much so. I definitely have have had effects on my sleeping. [chuckling] I don't sleep well at night. And just even in the day, I just feel like I'm going, going, going. I don't ever fully take a minute to just, like, breathe and relax. And I'm sure my heart rate is crazy all day.

MATT GALLOWAY: What about for you, Meaghan? I mean, you're juggling the pandemic, but as you mentioned, there's what people have called the shadow pandemic as well as what's happening with the opioid crisis, particularly in the Downtown Eastside. You're working in the inner city in Vancouver. How are you juggling all of that?

MEAGHAN THUMATH: Yeah, for us, I mean, I think it's interesting because I feel also really lucky to be a registered nurse and to have the additional support and resources that come with that, particularly in British Columbia, where I'm very fortunate to work. But I also, I think often of my colleagues who are overdose prevention workers, peers, you know, our cleaners and housing support workers. I work with and support a lot of them in the infection control, in the hotels, for instance, in single-room occupancy hotels. And they don't have even close to the access to mental health supports that we have. So, I mean, that's... that's something that's very distressing because we work as part of a team, especially in all of health care. And so we're really as strong as as to support all of our team members have. So that's something I think to look for, is that everybody has access to the level of mental support. And then I think about the things that cause me stress or keep me up at night when I was hearing people [chuckling] describe sleep, and it's... it's... often things related to my children. And so it's childcare. As an essential worker, we really must have specific essential worker childcare during lockdowns. For instance, that's hugely distressing. Our profession tends to be more women than men. We bear the burden of a lot of the childcare resources. And then things like many nurses, particularly our LPN colleagues, maybe living in multigenerational houses. So we see support for their families if they need to self-isolate or for themselves. Really, the conditions that make it more stressful, I think, ultimately are what... at one point, United Way was offering dog walking. And, you know, I didn't really have time to have a mental health conversation with anyone. I was so busy, and especially in that first wave.

MATT GALLOWAY: Yeah.

MEAGHAN THUMATH: But I was so appreciative that someone offered me something tangible because [laughing] it was causing me a lot of stress and anxiety of what I was going to do with my dog when I was working 14-hour days and what I was going to do with my children? And those are the tangible things, I think, that affect nurses' mental health, and really, all... all workers in the pandemic.

MATT GALLOWAY: What has to change then, Amy, to ensure that nurses like yourselves, the issues that... that you're raising and the respect that those issues deserve, that they're actually being addressed in a meaningful way?

AMY ARCHIBALD-VARLEY: I think the first thing to look at is some of those paid sick days, and really making sure that it's not just for full-time workers, that it is for part-time workers. Just as my colleague on the call said, women are really being affected disproportionately, and also women of colour as well. So I feel that we really need to have better support in terms of paid sick days. And I think that if the government can institute back those three days or the ten days, I think that would mean so much. Because sometimes, just as a nurse, you just... even if you have that one day or two days just for downtime, just for your mental health, I think... I think those are super important. And then again, just increasing our mental health supports and what... what is available to us, like my colleague again said on the line, the EAP is very short term. It runs out very quickly. And then it just hurts to know that even when I was struggling with mental health stress, a lot of it is out-of-pocket. So if you only have a small amount of coverage, once... once that's maxed out, you have to pay out-of-pocket. And if it has to be a choice of whether I can treat my mental health or treat my mental illness versus, you know, pay my mortgage or put the lights on in my home or feed my children, that's a really difficult situation for anybody to be put in. And I don't think anybody should have to be put in that situation where it's about can I support my family or can I take care of my mental health?

MATT GALLOWAY: You, all three, love what you're doing, and you're doing amazing work, but you find yourself in this shared situation. What would you say to each other? We just have a couple of minutes left. Amy, what would you say to your fellow nurses in this moment?

AMY ARCHIBALD-VARLEY: Please hang in there. I know it's so hard, it's so stressful, and these conversations are so important for us to continue to have. Like, I think... I think that as much as you can to continue to have conversations to normalize mental health. The RNAO is actually doing something really great today where they're actually having an open forum. Any nurse is actually available to go online and go on and have these conversations. So we're looking out for each other. And I think it's really important to continue to check in with your friends and your colleagues. And it's not just about saying, like, are you OK? It's actually about, like, asking, like, what else can I help you with? I think that's actually an important question as well.

MATT GALLOWAY: Meaghan, what would you say to your colleagues who are on the line right now?

MEAGHAN THUMATH: I would say it's OK to not be OK and that we are living in a really, truly unprecedented time. And that this is... we need to be there for each other, for all of our colleagues. And I really echo the call to check in with tangible support. If you're listening and you're not a nurse, but you love nurse, [chuckling] then asking them how can you walk their dog?

MATT GALLOWAY: Which seems like a small thing, but as you said, it seems like a small thing, but that's a really important thing. And it's something real, right... walking the dog? Brianna, what would you say? What would you say to your colleagues in a moment that is difficult, but a moment that you're all sharing in different ways?

BRIANNA STEWART: Yeah, I would say thank you for everything that you guys are doing because it is important work. And I would say that I really appreciate all the nurses that are working so hard right now. And I know it's been such a hard year, but I would say the same things. We just got to hang in there. We can do this. We're... we're making a difference, and we're doing our best to help people and keep them safe. So I think that's really important.

MATT GALLOWAY: You're all doing great work, and it's important to say that. But it's also important to have a conversation like this and let you talk to each other. Thank you very much for taking time to speak with us.

ALL: Thank you.

MATT GALLOWAY: Meaghan Thumathn is a public health nurse in Vancouver, also a clinical assistant professor of nursing at the University of British Columbia. Brianna Stewart is the public health nurse in the La Loche, Saskatchewan. And Amy-Archibald-Varley is quality and patient safety nurse in the Niagara region of Ontario and also the co-host of "The Gritty Nurse" podcast. If you are in mental distress, the Canada Suicide Prevention Service takes calls 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Their number is: 183-456-4566. That's: 1-83-456-4566. And if you're a nurse, or if you have a story to tell us about a nurse, get in touch. You can find us on Facebook or Twitter, or just go to the website: www.cbc.ca/thecurrent. Your CBC News is next. And then,.

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Canada will be developing domestic manufacturing. So regardless of what could happen in the future, we will have domestic production on top of all our partnerships and contracts signed with companies around the world.

MATT GALLOWAY: A made in Canada vaccine is getting closer. How close? When will it actually arrive? We will find out coming up after the break. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to "The Current" on CBC Radio One. Back in six minutes. Stay with us.

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Federal government announces plans to produce vaccines here in Canada

Guests: Caroline Quach, Rob Van Exan

MATT GALLOWAY: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. And you're listening to "The Current".

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MATT GALLOWAY: Still to come, stores are pulling some coconut products off their shelves because of who is doing the harvesting. They don't want any monkeying around. I'll explain in half-an-hour. But first, a vaccine of one's own.

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JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Two companies, Precision Nanosystems and Novavax, are now on track to manufacture vaccines right here in Canada. This is a major step forward to get vaccines made in Canada for Canadians. Pending Health Canada approval, tens of millions of Novavax COVID-19 doses will be made right here at home. We need as much domestic capacity for vaccine production as possible. We are investing in Canada's biomanufacturing sector for today and for the long term.

MATT GALLOWAY: That's Prime Minister Trudeau yesterday announcing a made in Canada solution to COVID-19, and also doubling down on the federal government's promise to have all willing Canadians vaccinated by the end of September. What exactly do these promises and announcements mean for Canadians waiting to get that vaccine? Dr. Caroline Quach is chair of the National Advisory Committee on Immunization. Doctor, good morning.

CAROLINE QUACH: Good morning.

MATT GALLOWAY: Why do we need to be able to make a vaccine here in Canada?

CAROLINE QUACH: Well, I think, you know, in the longer term, we... we need capacity here because we've seen what's happening when we don't have anything that is on our own soil. So when let's say, Pfizer makes their vaccine in the U.S. for the American population, and then the other manufacturing capacities, both for Moderna and Pfizer, are in Europe, which then gives them priority over us. I think it gives us a little bit more of a negotiation power, let's say.

MATT GALLOWAY: I wanted to ask you about what's happening, and I'll do that in a moment. But first, with this factory, I mean, we're almost a year into the pandemic. Is it too late to be talking about being able to create our own vaccine when we're waiting for vaccines to arrive from abroad?

CAROLINE QUACH: Well, for sure, it is a bit late, but it's not as if we had any other capacities before. I mean, the mRNA vaccines that are currently licenced require capacities that Canada does not have. Even if we were to turn one of our manufacturing capacities into a vaccine production, even the two companies that are already making vaccines in Canada, were not able to make mRNA vaccines from my understanding. So it's the... I mean, Novavax is a... is a vaccine that is a protein-based, so a vaccine that we are able to make. I think we also have to keep in mind that the government had invested before in Medicago, which is in Quebec City, which is also working on a COVID vaccine that is still in phase three. So it's just it's a matter of timing. The first two vaccines that got approved and that we're ready were mNRAs. And nobody here was able to make that.

MATT GALLOWAY: Where are we at in the approval process by Health Canada for this particular vaccine, the Novavax vaccine?

CAROLINE QUACH: I think it was just the data were just submitted recently. So what I know is that the next two vaccines that Health Canada are working on are the vector-based vaccines. So the AstraZeneca and the Johnson one. Novavax would come after that. So I guess in a month, a month-and-a-half or something, depending on how the data look and the questions that Health Canada could have to ask the manufacturers and the back and forth. So it's difficult to say, but it's not like tomorrow.

MATT GALLOWAY: And what about the AstraZeneca and that Jannsen... also, the Johnson and Johnson vaccines? Do we have a sense as to where they are in the approval process?

CAROLINE QUACH: So I think AstraZeneca is pretty close. The European Medicine Agency approved it last week. We're expecting something in the next few days. So, hopefully, it'll be soon. So that will be yet another vaccine in the toolbox.

MATT GALLOWAY: In the meantime, then, if we're talking about this made in Canada solution that the prime minister announced yesterday, it's an as yet approved vaccine at an as yet to be completed facility. When would we expect the facility to be actually operational? And if the vaccine were to be approved, actually be able to make that vaccine?

CAROLINE QUACH: I think you'd have to ask somebody who knows anything about a good manufacturing processes because you have to get that manufacturing up and running and to get the quality controls and, you know, all the I's dotted and the T's checked to be sure that what we're producing here is equivalent to the product that would be... would have been made in the U.S., I think, needs some correlation. So I'm not completely knowledgeable about that whole process. But I think you have another guest afterwards that could probably have more on that.

MATT GALLOWAY: We are going to talk further about that in just a moment. Yeah, I just didn't know whether you had any any inkling as to whether the prime minister says the summer, and then there's questions as to whether it's the summer, whether we're looking at anything in this current wave of vaccines or whether we're talking about the current wave of the virus or whether we're talking about something, you know, long-tail if we were to require, say, a booster shot of this vaccine in years ahead.

CAROLINE QUACH: Yeah, I think it's more... it's in terms of months. Whether or not it'll be in this wave, I... I can't... I can't tell. I don't know how long that takes to get started?

MATT GALLOWAY: In the meantime, Canadians are waiting for the vaccines that the government has ordered to actually arrive here. Both Pfizer and Moderna have cut shipments of vaccines to Canada in the coming weeks. It's essentially, just arriving in a bit of a trickle. How concerned are you about those delays?

CAROLINE QUACH: Well, quite. I mean, we were all hoping that we could get the six million doses that were promised, arriving steadily and not all batched towards the end of Q1. I think that, you know, what we want is to be able to vaccinate as many Canadians as possible as the community transmission is high. This is when we're going to have the highest impact. So having those delays are actually worrisome, but we can't do much about it at this point in time, at least not as the National Advisory Committee on Immunization. We just need to make sure they come. But it's negotiations. And what the companies were saying is that they were expanding their manufacturing facilities in Europe, and that's why they needed to cut the shipments a little bit everywhere.

MATT GALLOWAY: People have said that there is a lack of urgency in Canada's vaccination plan. And they compare it to other nations. They took a look at what's happening, for example, in the U.K. Where, you know, majority, a huge majority of people over 80 have been vaccinated. A huge number of those over 70 have been vaccinated. They are vaccinating thousands and thousands of people a day. And we're not seeing that here. Do you see a lack of urgency in the Canadian plan?

CAROLINE QUACH: Oh, no. [chuckling] I can tell you that there's urgency. It's just that not having vaccines makes it impossible to vaccinate. It means you have to realize that the U.K. Not only has the Pfizer vaccine, but they have the AstraZeneca, which is made in Oxford. So they, you know, they approved that vaccine way ahead of us and have the ability to actually use it. So we could have AstraZeneca approval soon. But in terms of when the vaccine was supposed to be shipped to Canada, it was only Q2 sometimes. So, hopefully, we're able to get something ahead of that, and we're able to find a space to use the AstraZeneca whenever it becomes available.

MATT GALLOWAY: The prime minister has doubled down on his belief that all Canadians who want to be vaccinated will be vaccinated by the end of September. People were doing sort of, you know, back of the envelope math, suggesting that that would require something like 300,000 vaccinations a day, every single day. Is that possible? Is something like that possible having all Canadians who want the vaccine to be vaccinated by the end of September?

CAROLINE QUACH: Well, at least one dose for sure. The second dose, hopefully, as well. What people have been calculating is that they were saying, you know, if they needed to, they would be able to vaccinate at least 12 hours a day, seven days a week. And whether or not that adds up to the 300,000 across the country, I don't know. I haven't made the math. But I think it's possible. I mean, that's what the provinces were asked to come up with a rollout plan, from my understanding.

MATT GALLOWAY: Once this is done, this... this wave of COVID that we're in right now. And we get out of, you know, the lockdowns that many people are experiencing, the prime minister has said that this facility, you know, isn't being set up necessarily to deal with immediate vaccine needs, but with longer term demands. Tell us more about that? What do you think would be our vaccine needs for COVID going forward after this year?

CAROLINE QUACH: Well, that's a.... That's a... I mean, it's a gamble. We are not sure exactly what's going to happen. I think that what is concerning at this point in time is to see other variants come up a little bit everywhere. We heard recently that the variants that emerged in the U.K. was now having new mutations that made it less well covered by the vaccines that we had. So the question then becomes, if we have variants that creep up here and there, are we going to need not necessarily booster shots, but annual shots like influenza? And that's when that's where, you know, that facility could come and play its role. But we'll have to see how things emerge. I have a sense that we're going to need more than just this series because we'll never be able to vaccinate the entire world during the next year. And so there will still be transmission of viruses that will come up with new mutations, that will play tricks on us. And so, you know, likely another vaccine will be needed. And then we'll have to see eventually how the entire population immunity plays in terms of herd immunity if we have it or not, and if we're able to cut transmission or if, you know, the most vulnerable will still be vulnerable and need vaccination on an annual basis.

MATT GALLOWAY: Let's get these first vaccines into people's arms as soon as possible. In the meantime, Dr. Quach, we'll speak again. It's good to have you back on the program. Thank you.

CAROLINE QUACH: Thank you. Have a good day.

MATT GALLOWAY: And you. Dr. Caroline Quach, chair of the National Advisory Committee on Immunization. She was in Montreal. Manufacturing a vaccine isn't as easy as producing a pair of jeans or making parts for a refrigerator. Rob Van Exan is a biologist. He spent nearly four decades working in Canada's vaccine industry. Rob, good morning to you.

ROB VAN EXAN: Good morning, Matt. How are you?

MATT GALLOWAY: I'm well. What do you make of the timelines associated with this idea of... of a facility in Montreal that would produce COVID-19 vaccines? The prime minister was suggesting perhaps they could be rolling off the assembly line, if I can put it that way, sometime this year. Does that seem realistic to you?

ROB VAN EXAN: It seems... It seems a very short period of time compared to what we know historically. Mind you, everything's in a hurry up mode. But Pfizer built a major vaccine plant not too many years ago in the U.S. It took them five years, and it cost about five times the normal cost per square foot of manufacturing facility. So it takes time and it takes a lot of money. This facility, I know we're in a big rush and everything is being done super fast, but there's... [clears throat] there's really three phases you have to get to before you start seeing any vaccine.

MATT GALLOWAY: So walk us through those. I mean, if you're... aside from building the building, I mean, what do you need to do to be able to have a vaccine manufacturing facility?

ROB VAN EXAN: So... so the first the first phase is construction. But it's not just building the building because the building you're building is going to have all kinds of complex requirements like, you know, a balanced airflow and HEPA-filtered air and all of that stuff that's... that's in the building. Normal buildings don't even have anything remotely like this. So... so there's the construction, which is longer and more complex than normal. Then you have to fill it with everything that you're going to use to produce the vaccine. This is the bioreactors, everything right down to chromatography, filters and all kinds of equipment to purify and a filling in packaging operation. All of this has to be... machinery has to be put in there and installed. So all of that takes quite a long time. And then, what most people don't realize is that vaccine plants have to operate on good manufacturing practices, which are controlled by the regulator, appropriately so. And to validate a new plant will take [clears throat] as long as it took to construct it or longer. So if... if this plant was... assuming the prime minister was correct, that it would be built by September. And assuming that he means by that, that it's also going to have all of the equipment installed and be ready to function, it would probably take till December to validate the plant.

MATT GALLOWAY: So nothing... nothing... nothing --.

ROB VAN EXAN: Because everything that's in there has to be proven that it works.

MATT GALLOWAY: And nothing's going to be rolling off the line from your perspective then until sometime into next year?

ROB VAN EXAN: Well, then then you hit the third phase. How long does it take to make a batch of vaccine? Because if you're going to start that in December or January, for an mRNA vaccine, from the time you start it until the time you see your dose roll-off the assembly line is four months. For a protein vaccine like this one, it could... it's probably closer to six to nine months. And for some vaccines like polio vaccine that's produced right here at Steeles and Dufferin, it's 18 months [clears throat].

MATT GALLOWAY: So no matter the timeline, I mean, and the timeline sounds long. This is... this is a big process. And there are a lot of boxes that need to be checked to make sure that you're producing something that's going to work and that's going to meet those quality assurances. Is this still a good idea for Canada to create something like this?

ROB VAN EXAN: Well, yes. And.... And it was a good idea ten years ago when we went through the last pandemic and had a Senate committee hearings and... and... and reviews by just about everybody and his brother on what... what went right and what went wrong in the last pandemic. And one of the things that came out of that is, is we need a secure supply of vaccines. And one of the biggest problems actually during that pandemic was we had vaccine supply issues, even though the manufacturer was here in Canada.The manufacturer of that vaccine for the last pandemic was GSK in Quebec, and we had disruptions of vaccine flow even then.

MATT GALLOWAY: Why don't you think that guidance a decade ago was followed? Why don't we have the plants now? Why are we only talking about this now?

ROB VAN EXAN: I don't know. But but what I would suggest is this, that so it's not a matter of looking back and blaming. [laughing] It's a matter of looking ahead. Building this plant is not a bad idea in itself, but what is wrong is that it needs to be part of a pandemic plan. Your plan has to say, here's what we're going to do during a pandemic. Here's the public health measures that we have at hand to use. Here's how we'll use them. But here's... here's where we're going to get our vaccines from. And here's how we're going to develop them and make them. And here's how long it's going to take. And the... the most important part of this is how do you create an environment in Canada to have that manufacturing capacity from companies that actually have the expertise to do the manufacturing? Because there's very few of them. So... so it's it's also partly setting up a commercial environment that's going to fit with your plan. And I would say the third thing is that your plan has to integrate with the rest of the world because we're not an island. Pandemics affect the entire world. Our economy isn't going to get better until the world's economy gets better. And so our plan needs to be linked with what's going on in the U.S. and in Europe.

MATT GALLOWAY: There are facilities that are manufacturing vaccines in Canada, including, as you mentioned, one in Toronto.

ROB VAN EXAN: Yup!

MATT GALLOWAY: Is there the possibility that those facilities could be retooled to make COVID vaccines? Is that doable?

ROB VAN EXAN: [warm chuckle] Anything's doable. But let's step [clears throat] back a little bit. I don't know the answer to that question, obviously, because I don't work there anymore. But there's 235 vaccines in development for COVID-19 as we speak, and most of them are not going to make it through the clinical trial phase. But they fall into seven different vaccine manufacturing platforms. The facility in Toronto is making vaccines that involve or that could be turned to produce about three of the platforms. And some of the platforms... four of the platforms that are being used for COVID-19 vaccines have never been used to make a vaccine before. So nobody has... has tried and true proven manufacturing facilities for those.

MATT GALLOWAY: So it's not just as simple as stopping the production line, retooling it and starting to make something else?

ROB VAN EXAN: No, but what you could do I mean, I'm thinking out of the box here, Matt, but certainly, if you were building a plan, one of the plans could be to say, we've got a world-class manufacturing facility in Toronto making vaccines. And... and they're obviously using all of their capacity, making the vaccines they're making. And we need them. So... so... but could we could we contract with that company to develop some excess capacity and have that excess capacity available to Canada on reserve, should we have a pandemic? And that would be, to me, something that could go into the pandemic plan is how could we contract for reserve capacity?

MATT GALLOWAY: What about, just finally before I let you go, some of these calls from organizations like Medecins Sans Frontieres, and there are countries that have made this call as well, for companies like Pfizer to waive its patent during the pandemic so that more vaccines could be produced, that you give up the profit you're going to make and you, you know, put a spike through the pandemic because you have vaccines being made. You turn the IP over, the... the intellectual property, and allow other people to make that. What do you make of that idea?

ROB VAN EXAN: Well, I... I make of it that it's already happening because Sanofi, Bayer and Novartis have all offered, and... and from what I understand, there's contracts being drawn up, to support in various aspects of Pfizer's production, whether it be they may not be able to produce the... the actual RNA vaccine, but they might be able to provide the fermenter capacity to produce the DNA plasmids. And certainly, most of those companies could provide some filling in packaging capacity, which is often the biggest constraint in vaccine production is.. is filling... sterile filling and packaging of the vials. So I don't know the details of that, but I know that the industry itself is... is coming together in an unprecedented way to support the manufacturing of vaccines under dire circumstances, and I'm very pleased to see that.

MATT GALLOWAY: Rob, good to speak with you again. And we'll talk again, I'm sure, in future as the story continues to unfold. Thank you.

ROB VAN EXAN: All right, Matt, nice talking to you. Bye for now!

MATT GALLOWAY: Rob Van Exan is a biologist. He spent decades working in Canada's vaccine industry. You're listening to "The Current" on CBC Radio One. My name is Matt Galloway. We were talking earlier in the program with nurses who are dealing with the personal and professional strains of working in the pandemic. Yesterday, we focussed on doctors, and that prompted a lot of mail from you. Karin Marley is The Current's senior producer. She's here to sift through the mailbag. Good morning

KARIN MARLEY: Good morning. There was a common theme in some of the letters that we received: the long hours that physicians have to work. For example, Walt Sepic of Inverary, Ontario, wrote, I've always wondered why the torture of medical residents has been tolerated for so long. 16, 24, even 36 hour shifts. This, I think, is part of the reason this stress still goes on. They should only work one shift and then go home and rest, recover, get support from friends and family. Where are the provincial medical associations on this issue?

MATT GALLOWAY: Nancy Hart of Charlottetown has a similar thought. She wrote, Residents and doctors are working mandatory 24 to 36-hour shifts often. Often seven times a month. This should be considered criminal, keeping most doctors sleep-deprived by extensive, overworked shift work. The fair labour laws do not seem to apply to medical staff. Remember, these are the people who are treating us and performing surgeries.

KARIN MARLEY: Helen Brown of Coquitlam, BC says, I wrote to BC health Minister Adrian Dix mid-2020 expressing my concerns about health care providers working long shifts under dire circumstances. I'm sure that burnout and medical errors have and will increase when doctors and nurses and other frontline workers continue to work 12-hour shifts, sometimes beyond 12 hours. How many patients have been harmed because their caregivers were too tired and frazzled to provide the best of care? Who's keeping track of the errors that are surely being made?

MATT GALLOWAY: This is a letter from Mark Vincent in Victoria. My father was a rural practitioner in the Niagara region for 50 years, so I have some insights into living with a doctor. Doctors must be very frustrated with people, young and older, not obeying health instructions of all kinds, especially those with positions of authority, flaunting the rules. I wonder if any doctor has anyone they can truly trust confidentially? In this age, when there are few secrets kept for various reasons, doctors are taught to be stoic, as we heard, even as they are interviewed to enter medicine training. So they have a loner's mindset underneath.

KARIN MARLEY: And finally, Dalia Gottlieb-Tanaka of North Vancouver offers this potential solution. It is hard to hear the distress and burnout of Canadian doctors, while perfectly skilled foreign doctors are being kept away due to old protectionism regulations, shouldn't covid allow their possible contributions while being in Canada?

MATT GALLOWAY: An interesting question, Karin, thank you.

KARIN MARLEY: You're welcome.

MATT GALLOWAY: We love to hear what you think about everything on this program. We read every single letter that you send to us, and some of them end up on the radio. You can email us: thecurrent@cbc.ca. Find us on Twitter: @TheCurrentCBC. Or look for us on the Facebook. Coming up after your regional update, he's getting set to leave a 17-year career in politics, and the last 12 months have been particularly trying for him and for the province of Nova Scotia. Premier Stephen McNeil is my guest when we come back. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to "The Current". Back in 90 seconds. Don't go anywhere.

[Music: Theme]

N.S. Premier Stephen McNeil reflects on his last year in office; Coconut monkeys

Guests: Stephen McNeil, Kendra Coulter

MATT GALLOWAY: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to "The Current".

DISPATCHER: There's a person down there with a gun. They're still looking for him. It's very vague what's going on down there.

REPORTER: One of those armed forces members is confirmed dead, Sublieutenant Abbigail Cowbrough, a naval officer based in Nova Scotia. She was [fading down]

JUSTIN TRUDEAU My thoughts, and the thoughts of all Canadians, are with the families of Captain Casey, Captain MacDougall and the entire snowbirds team.

REPORTER#2: Breaking news out of Nova Scotia. We know the names of the crew members who were on board the Chief William Saulis, that scallop boat [fading out]

MATT GALLOWAY: It has been a tough year in Nova Scotia. A shooting rampage that killed 22 people in April. The deaths of six fishermen in December while their scallop dragger sank. And, of course, the pandemic, Nova Scotia was hit early when 53 people died at the Northwood long-term care home last spring. And it has been a challenging final year in politics for Premier Stephen McNeil. This weekend, his party will pick a new leader. Premier McNeil is with me now. Premier, good morning.

STEPHEN MCNEIL: Good morning, sir.

MATT GALLOWAY: How would you describe the last year in your province?

STEPHEN MCNEIL: Oh, there's been a tremendous amount of sadness. It's been one... one heartbreak after another. Like all the world, we were dealing, obviously, with COVID. But as you led into this conversation, from the Portapique shootings to the Snowbird's helicopter crash and, of course, more recently, the scallop dragger, Chief William Saulis, tha went down. It has been one of tremendous sadness.

MATT GALLOWAY: The shootings in Portapique affected, obviously, the province profoundly. But I think everyone in this country felt the pain the people in your province did. I mean, as a premier, there's one thing... how would you describe the impact that it had on you personally?

STEPHEN MCNEIL: Oh, I think like everyone, you know? Listen, I talk about the pandemic, for example, we're all in this. We all were kind of experiencing it together. [clears throat] And there was no way to comprehend what was happening in Portapique. To be perfectly frank, it's so senseless, so heartbreaking. You know, families terrorized in their own community, in some cases, the next morning just going for a walk or going to work lost their life through no fault of their own. And you're trying to rationalize that inside of, you know, inside of the province. And there's just no... there's no rationalisation for it. You can't. So what you do is you surround each other, and you hope that by showing care and love and support to each other, that you begin the journey of healing.

MATT GALLOWAY: We know that the victims families are still looking for answers. And there is this joint federal-provincial public enquiry that's now in motion. It comes after your government faced harsh criticism for initially announcing a review rather than a full public inquiry. Do you regret that initial decision?

STEPHEN MCNEIL: Well, what we were really looking for, Matt, was to try to make sure that we had all of the agencies at the table. We could not hold a provincial enquiry and compel the federal agencies to be there. We're actually doing an inquiry right now in our province that is a provincial inquiry, and we cannot compel federal witnesses to be there. The federal military, the RCMP that was involved in that, so what we were trying to do with the Portapique one is to give closure to these families. Obviously, they wanted a full enquiry. We heard that. And thankfully, the federal government joined us in the joint inquiry because there are, you know, whether it's the border agency, whether it is the RCMP, we need the federal government to to have their agencies at the table and compel them to come and be witnesses. And this will now do that.

MATT GALLOWAY: You mentioned the RCMP. And the mandate of the inquiry includes a probe of the RCMP's response, as well as the role of gender-based violence in the tragedy. We've spoken with the family members of victims. They are still raw in their anger, and they're looking for answers, and in some ways feel abandoned in the absence of those answers, what questions do you still have about the RCMP response?

STEPHEN MCNEIL: Well, listen, I'm not going to judge what's going to happen at the inquiry. I think all of us are wanting to know what happened that night. You know, why there was such a delay in, you know, that information being disseminated out to Nova Scotians. Into the community. But, you know, those answers will... will be part of this inquiry. And I, like all Nova Scotians, want to see a full, open and transparent view of not only what happened in that particular moment but how it was dealt with thereafter.

MATT GALLOWAY: Is that the question.. I mean, you've hinted at it, is that the main question that you have, why there was such a delay in alerting the community?

STEPHEN MCNEIL: You know, that's a question that everybody has, not just me. I mean, people are wondering, you know, the alert system, for example, all of those things, those answers will come out in that. But, you know, and to be perfectly frank, it's... it's more critical for these families that these answers get out there because that's where the healing will really begin for them. You know, and it won't really begin until they get to get these answers.

MATT GALLOWAY: This healing is hard because of the pandemic that we're in. People can't have the rituals that we would normally have in just giving somebody a hug or being with people in the same way because of the COVID crisis. One way that that you and neighbouring premiers tackled this was through the Atlantic bubble. Why do you think it worked as well as it did?

STEPHEN MCNEIL: Well, I think you have to go back before the Atlantic bubble. The reason we had some success early on was we just came at it hard. We shut down our entire economy for almost four months. All the service sector was completely shut down. It wasn't... we didn't reduce numbers, they were closed. Restaurants, bars, hairdressing salons were just closed until we got a sense of what we could and couldn't do. And then as we gradually began to open up, we then were able to do that within the Atlantic region where the other provinces had taken, you know, it kept the numbers low. You know, we began to wear masks here in Nova Scotia before the rest of the country. You know, those are the kinds of things that allowed us to... to be in the position to open up within the region.

MATT GALLOWAY: And yet 53 of the 65 COVID deaths in Nova Scotia came at one long-term care home in Halifax, and that came early in the pandemic. There are people who have pointed the finger at your government in saying that... that rounds of cuts left these homes unprepared for the tsunami of COVID. What would you say to those people?

STEPHEN MCNEIL: Well, we have 135 long term care facilities in Nova Scotia. By far, Northwood is the largest one, not only in our province, but in Atlantic Canada. It's the largest one east of Montreal. What we've learned through a review that was done externally from our government, like everywhere, people believe that an asymptomatic person could not pass on this virus. We also learned that's not true, since then, we know that's how it got into our long-term care facility. And, at the same time, with the size of that facility and joint rooms and in some cases there were more than two people to a room, that virus spread very quickly. We just announced last week that we'll be taking 100 beds out of that facility, adding 44 and building a new one somewhere else in the metro area. But, you know, when we look back on it, the lessons, the things that we didn't know, quite frankly, you know, passing on the virus. Much of the country wasn't wearing masks.

MATT GALLOWAY: Right.

STEPHEN MCNEIL: We put them on early. It's just, you know, I think as a country, we were... we were all learning. And in some cases, there were deadly consequences.

MATT GALLOWAY: Have we failed our seniors?

STEPHEN MCNEIL: Listen, everyone is out there doing and working as hard as they can to care for our loved ones.

MATT GALLOWAY: I'm not talking about individuals, though. I'm talking about as a society. I mean, we've seen this across the country. I mean, you know, the second wave in some ways has been deadlier in long-term care homes than the first. And people have called this a reckoning. But wonder whether in that reckoning we have abandoned our elders.

STEPHEN MCNEIL: So I can't speak for what's happening in other provinces. I can tell you we have 135 long-term care facilities. i have 200 long-term care beds i the part of the province that I represent. Loved ones are being cared for compassionately, effectively, day in and day out in our province. There is no question this pandemic has had a devastating impact on some of our facilities, particularly Northwood. But I, you know, I'm proud of the way the men and women who go to work every day in these facilities have rallied. If you go back to when this virus started, Matt, think of your own workplace. Many people stayed home. All those long-term care workers didn't have a choice. They showed up; they cared for. And the uncertainty around this virus that we all felt they were feeling, too. They had to go back home to their own families, afraid they might be taking the virus home. Many of them who work in these long-term care facilities that view these residents as their family. And it's been devastating for them. And, you know, we'll continue to support them as we roll out this vaccine that we've now have in our province. We've been vaccinating the workers in long-term care and the health care sector. And now, we'll roll it out for residents when we get a steady supply vaccine.

MATT GALLOWAY: Let me just ask you finally on this point about health care. We've spoken yesterday with doctors. This morning, with nurses. Both of whom are on the front lines. To your point, they're not working from home. And they both feel, both groups feel, as though they are right at the breaking point, if not beyond the breaking point. Nurses in Nova Scotia have... have long been speaking out about staff shortages and about E.R. overcrowding. Has what happened over the course of this pandemic made you think differently about the role of health care in Nova Scotia, but also the way that you've handled health care funding?

STEPHEN MCNEIL: No, we've continued to invest in health care every year. We've continued to hire more nurses. We've... it's not a question of whether or not we have been hiring. The question is, you know, do... do... do... does the government and the unions agree on the numbers all the time? No. But no one can look back at our record and say that we didn't invest in long-term care facilities, health care facilities and workers. But, you know, there will be lots of analyzing the last 12 months across this country and around the world. And I think I'm really proud of the way health care teams in this province have rallied around Nova Scotians, and how every sector has stood up. Listen, we closed, as I said earlier on the beginning of this thing, we closed businesses, people whose income we took away for four months because of the uncertainty of what we didn't know about this virus. And business owners have rallied around that and supported that as hard as it has been. But if you don't have good public health, you don't have a good economic health has been our motto here, and it'll continue to be that way as we continue to roll out that vaccine. And, you know, the new government will analyze and look at health care and how they deal with and how they fund it.

MATT GALLOWAY: Let me ask you just finally about another issue that you have been dealing with, and that is the issue of the rights of Indigenous people and racism within your province. And this goes from your work in essentially closing down Northern Pulp, which you said it was a decision necessary to address environmental racism, to the dispute over the lobster fishery between fishers in Nova Scotia, Mi'kmaq fishers and non-Indigenous fishers. Given what you have addressed, and what your province has gone through, you have a successor that's going to be inheriting this job in a few weeks time. What advice would you give them on that front in terms of the state of those relations in Nova Scotia right now?

STEPHEN MCNEIL: I don't think... I think our relationship with Indigenous people is never better.

MATT GALLOWAY: Has never been better?!

STEPHEN MCNEIL: That's right, we've had a tremendous relationship. When you look at the fishery dispute that's taken place, that is there's no doubt the Indigenous community has a right to moderate livelihood. No one's ever questioned that in this province. The issue that you're dealing with the federal government and DFO. And in my view, and the message that I gave to the federal government, and as I've met with chiefs here, this needs to be broader than one community, Shubenacadie, needs to be a broader view within the Indigenous community across Atlantic Canada on what does a moderate livelihood look like, and how do you operate it alongside and with the traditional fishery? The fishermen that I know, you know, who that are on the water. I represent a very large lobster fishery. They're not opposed or against the Mi'kmaq fishery. What they want from the national government and the First Nations is to sit down and find out how do you work that together? I've worked as the minister responsible for Aboriginal affairs. You mentioned Boat Harbour. We've continue to invest in infrastructure in our province, whether it is zoning highways, creating overpasses to Mi'kmaq land where they've been able to operate and grow economic opportunities for themselves. I've appointed the first Mi'kmaq woman to the bench in this province. We continued over that period of time. And I'm grateful for the support that we have received. Oftentimes, the things that make the highlight, that lead the news is obviously very disturbing. But, you know, when... when we're... when we're sitting down with chiefs talking talking about ensuring that the mi'kmaq language is healthy in our province, in my view, warrants some covering.

MATT GALLOWAY: What has to... and part of this is about, I mean, in September, you apologized to Black and Indigenous Nova Scotians for systemic racism within the justice system. And I mean, that's the kind of thing you talk about what gets the news. That's the kind of thing that ends up on the highlights. What has to follow the apology, though?

STEPHEN MCNEIL: So we have a we put together a cross-government committee that will be dealing with the structure of government. And we've put together a team outside the government around the restorative approach on how do we go out and begin that healing and the conversations within communities to get an understanding? Very similar to the approach, the restorative inquiry, we did around the home for coloured children in our province back in 2013,14. That led to a tremendous amount of outpouring of love and care for those residents. And I think an outcome that allowed the healing to begin and the lessons learned for government about how you deal with African Nova Scotians and Mi'kmaq kids who come into care and how they've been dealt with. And to deal with the system. Let's let's be frank, is not unique to Nova Scotia.

MATT GALLOWAY: Yeah.

STEPHEN MCNEIL: These systems have been built by white men who've had a single point of view. And we have not modernized these systems. And many of the things.. it's not that the people in them are mean-spirited about what they're doing. It is they are continuing to follow practices that have been long-standing without actually stepping back and understanding the experiences of a Black Nova Scotian or an Indigenous Nova Scotian, and quite frankly, female Nova Scotian on how they are being represented or treated in a system. You know, many of us who have white privilege when we see law enforcement, we feel a sense of security. Well, many minorities don't. And we need their voice to be able to understand their position so that the changes we make are meaningful. And they're not made by white men who think they know the answer. They're made by people who have understood and been willing to listen to minorities who have been... who have been on the other end and the receiving end of a justice system that hasn't been just for them. And then how do we make those changes? And, you know, the good news is, Matt, is law enforcement is looking for it as well. Law enforcement wants to begin this conversation. Many of the men and women in uniform across this country want the system to change.

MATT GALLOWAY: Just two quick questions before I let you go, because we're just about out of time. One is, what are you going to miss about this job?

STEPHEN MCNEIL: The people. I won't miss the office or title. I made a commitment to myself my role would be to change the office, not have the office change me. I think I've stayed true to who I was. But I will definitely miss the people I worked with. I have, you know, we've... I've seen some of them have children. I've seen some of them lose parents. They've seen me lose a sibling. We have been connected through the highs and lows of this for 17 years. And so that's what I'll miss. I'll miss them.

MATT GALLOWAY: What are you looking forward to?

STEPHEN MCNEIL: I'm looking forward to a rest.

MATT GALLOWAY: [laughing] You've had a long year. [Stephen chuckles] And your province has had a long year as well. I hope we have the chance to talk again. In the meantime, Premier McNeil, thank you very much for this morning.

STEPHEN MCNEIL: Me too. And if I can say, this... this will be this will be the first time we'll get to say this to someone in the media. Your show, I want to tell you, connects the country. I know you go to work every day, and don't underestimate the power your show is having on... on connecting Canada. And it's important. You talk about some really tough conversations, but it's a way to connect this country. And I know many Nova Scotians tune in every day just to hear you. So thank you for leading us over the last year, and... and... and having us have some of these tough conversations in a kind way. So I appreciate it very much.

MATT GALLOWAY: That's very generous of you to say. Premier, thank you very much and good luck to you.

STEPHEN MCNEIL: Take Care.

MATT GALLOWAY: Stephen McNeil is the premier of Nova Scotia. His successor will be chosen by his party this weekend.

[Music: Folk]

MATT GALLOWAY: You're listening to "The Current" on CBC Radio One, my name is Matt Galloway.

MAN: [Speaking: Thai].

TRANSLATOR: They've never seen the farmers and monkeys living together. And we've had this bond for more than 100 years. I feel sad because I've never tortured them. The only thing I've ever done is give them love.

MATT GALLOWAY: That Thai farmer might give that monkey love, but in return, the monkey is put to work, scrambling to the top of coconut trees, prying loose fruit for the farmer to harvest down below. This is the kind of practice that the animal welfare group PETA Asia is condemning. In Thailand, their investigation found monkeys chained, living in tiny little cages and treated badly. And so in response, major U.S. retailers like Target and Costco have pulled some Thai coconut products from their shelves. Kendra Coulter is an associate professor and department chair of Labour Studies at Brock University and a fellow of the Oxford Centre for Animal Ethics. Kendra, good morning.

KENDRA COULTER: Good morning.

MATT GALLOWAY: How are these monkeys used to harvest coconuts?

KENDRA COULTER: Well, I have to say, when you... when you... when you read and hear about their conditions, they don't actually sound significantly different from how a number of farmed animals are treated on factory farms in Canada and across North America and around the world. So we're hearing things about, you know, chains and emotional distress, being in very, very small cages. And, you know, there's altogether too much cruelty involved in the food system close to home and around the world. So this was an interesting example where, you know, animal advocacy organizations are increasingly not only encouraging individuals to to change their practices so that their... their eating reflects their ethical and environmental priorities.

MATT GALLOWAY: Yeah.

KENDRA COULTER: But also targeting larger retailers. So you get, you know, more bang for your buck, as it were. And in this case, there was success in the major market of the United States. You know, it could be because, you know, the monkeys are very cute, perhaps because they're human-like, maybe because this is something that seems far away. But, you know, I'm hopeful that it'll actually be an invitation and an opportunity for us to... to... to look at the conditions of animals around the world.

MATT GALLOWAY: Should we give any, you know, credence to the claim from the farmers that this is how it's been for decades and that he treats his monkeys well?

KENDRA COULTER: I think that often individual farmers around the world do care about their animals. No group is sort of monolithic or, you know, all the same. We don't want to, you know, paint any... any single group with one brush. And so there are obviously going to be differences. But I think there's a need to recognize the difference between sort of individual expressions of of care or, you know, functional care to keep an animal going or even genuine care to, you know, to keep an animal healthy and this larger systemic pattern. I mean, what we're really talking about is a food system that is corporatized. It is Industrialized. And so, you know, increasingly farmers have very, very little control. And we actually see, you know, far fewer farms which are being increasingly replaced by these large, large agribusiness. And that's what the large majority of agriculture involves these days.

MATT GALLOWAY: Does that go beyond animals in the food production cycle or that, you know, that industrial complex, if I can put it that way? I mean, obviously, monkeys being chained up in a cage is bad, but we as humans use animals in all sorts of different ways, right? Is there a line that we draw in terms of what's acceptable in terms of how those animals are used and what's unacceptable?

KENDRA COULTER: Well, we could certainly talk about that for the next hour, Matt. [matt laughs] But I'll try to concisely share some thoughts. It's something I feel really passionately about and spent a lot of time thinking about. I mean, to the question of animals work is it really interesting one. Animals work all the time, right? They have to find food, they have to find shelter, avoid predators, navigate our vehicles and our windows and all of these barriers to their sort of daily subsistence work that we've,... we've placed in their way. The bigger question is when we put animals to work. And I genuinely don't believe there is a one size fits all model, I think we need to recognize that animals can't sign employment contracts, they can't can't sign union cards. But they do have all sorts of things to say and very strong opinions. And they're going to be showing how they genuinely feel. So they might have an aptitude or an interest in a particular task. You know, a very high energy dog, for example, might be suited to, you know, conservation work, whereas a lower energy dog is better for, say, therapy work or maybe just lounging around the house. And it's up to us to be... to be listening to those voices and paying attention and recognizing that we have a really high ethical and moral responsibility when it comes to animals. They're going to make it very clear when they don't want to be doing things. And I think there are certain practices that, you know, cause harm, that cause violence, that do psychological and intergenerational damage to animals that we can, at this point, given what we know about animals minds and relationships, sort of rule out as not ethically justifiable. And so the key is really to find alternatives. And there are a lot of exciting things happening in that respect to either replace animals who were doing labour for us, and/or to find alternatives to the work they do in the food system for us.

MATT GALLOWAY: Soin the last minute or so that we have, we go back to the coconut milk, and somebody goes, you know, to the store to buy a tin of coconut milk. What should they be thinking about?

KENDRA COULTER: Well, there are a number of wonderful milk options that don't involve any kind of animal harm. We have, you know, soy milk and almond milk. One of my favourites is oat milk, especially when it's grown with oats and made with oats from Canadian farmers. I think we do as individuals want to be making a statement every day, but then also looking for these larger social changes, looking to the investments in, you know, plant-based agriculture, looking for things like lab-grown or cultured meat to replace that kind of animal Harm. We are able to make a difference every day individually. But let's also be asking these questions of our retailers and of our politicians and governments.

MATT GALLOWAY: Kendra, it's great to talk to you. Thank you very much.

KENDRA COULTER: Thank you, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: Kendra Coulter is an associate professor and department chair of Labour Studies at Brock University and a fellow of the Oxford Centre for Animal Ethics. That's it for "The Current" for today. Coming up next on CBC Radio one, it's "Q" Topower speaking with Fran Lebowitz, who is the subject of a fantastic series on Netflix in which she talks about the city with Martin Scorsese. Tomorrow on "The Current", we're back on the road again, virtually, for our series "Canada's Road Ahead". We are heading to Prince Edward Island, where even though a number of covid cases there has been low, the stakes are still very high for communities that count on tourists to get by. In the town of Souris, people are relying on one another instead of all those visitors. And so we'll leave you with a preview from the side of the road. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to "The Current". And we'll talk to you tomorrow.

DEREK JAMESON: My name is Derek Jameson, and this is Souris, Prince Edward Island. This is wqhere I'm selling my fish out of. Selling stuff from the back of a half-ton pickup truck, that's right. [chuckling] I'm selling fresh whitefish, fresh hake. This is fresh haddock, lobster meat, all from the back of the truck. Yeah, that's right. The summer's always been fairly busy for us because of the tourist season. This is, of course, pre-pandemic. Last summer, I just had locals and they actually kept me fairly busy. I had line ups, about 20 cars long, run off my feet for a good three... solid three hours. [chuckling] And continued into the winter. So pardon me there one minute. [talking in the distance] Hey, George. There you go. Have a good day! The pandemic has actually made it a little busier. People needed a good place to go get their protein. And people can stay in their rigs, kind of like a drive-through, Tim Hortons drive-through.

MAN: Ten dollars.

DEREK JAMESON: Ten dollars. So people can safely get their fish, stay in the car, stay warm, and especially in the winter. So... so it works out pretty well.

MAN#2: You got a line up.

DEREK JAMESON: I got a line up, yeah. There you go!

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February 3, 2021 Episode Transcript

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