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The Current Transcript for January 26, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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CHRYSTIA FREELAND: This pandemic has been a setback for our economy. We are committed to doing the hard work we need to do so that Canada can and will come roaring back.

MATT GALLOWAY: A setback, to put it politely. And for the Canadian economy to come roaring back, people will need to be able to get out and go back to work. And that will take vaccines. With no doses of either approved vaccine arriving in Canada this week, and COVID variants already here, the government is facing tough questions about when Canadians will get the shots and whether the borders can be tightened up. Canada's deputy prime minister Chrystia Freeland is here in 30 minutes. Also, this morning,.

WOMAN: It was unbelievable how you challenge and confront the dictator face-to-face, to shout, to raise your voice while you are looking in the eyes of the security guards and security officers. And they were so afraid of our voices.

MATT GALLOWAY: Ten years ago, what started as a protest in Tunisia spread through the Middle East and North Africa in what became known as the Arab Spring. In Syria, protesters hoped the demonstrations could topple a dictator and bring freedom to that population. Instead, a brutal civil war erupted, unleashing a humanitarian crisis and displacing millions. In an hour, a key figure in those demonstrations now in exile in Canada reflects on the legacy of the Arab Spring, its cost and why she's still hopeful.

MATT GALLOWAY: We begin, though, with a story about sacrifice, and a Canadian NFL hero who should be playing in the Super Bowl in two weeks time, but instead has been working as an orderly in a long term care home in his hometown of Montreal. Laurent Duvernay-Tardif is next. Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. And this is "The Current".

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Canadian NFL player Laurent Duvernay-Tardif on swapping football for the COVID-19 front lines

Guest: Laurent Duvernay-Tardif

MATT GALLOWAY: To suggest that Laurent Duvernay-Tardif had an eventful 2020 [chuckle] would be an understatement. His year started like this:

JOE BUCK: And they have done it. Chiefs are Super Bowl champions here in Miami! [cheering] As they winning here in Super Bowl 54.

MATT GALLOWAY: Winning the Super Bowl with the Kansas City Chiefs is remarkable in itself. But a few months later, with a pandemic full-on, the McGill Medical School graduate swapped his helmet and cleats for scrubs and a mask. He went to work at a long-term care home in Quebec, and then he opted not to go back to football this season. Instead, he kept working on the front lines and studying at Harvard's T.H. Chan School of Public Health. Last year, he was a co-owner of the 2020 Lou Marsh Award for Canada's top athlete and named one of Sports Illustrated's "Athletes of the Year". Laurent Duvernay-Tardif joins me now from Montreal. Laurent, hello.

LAURENT DUVERNAY-TARDIF: Hello. Hello. How are you doing?

MATT GALLOWAY: I'm well. You had a big smile when we played that little clip from... from the Super Bowl. What is it like to listen back to that?

LAURENT DUVERNAY-TARDIF: I mean, it's an awesome feeling. I feel like, you know, not only for me, it was the biggest event of 2020, probably the ultimate team accomplishment, but also I feel like, you know, it's the last time that we were actually able to... to celebrate as a team, you know? And not only the Super Bowl, but going back to Kansas City, the parade in front of a million people, coming back to Montreal after that. And, you know, all those... those event, all that support, I felt from the Montreal, the Canadian community, the Kansas City community. It was... it was amazing.

MATT GALLOWAY: It's incredible how much happens in a year. I mean, this time last year, you're on the biggest stage in pro sports, and here you are now removed from that, doing incredible work. But it's so different. How do you... how do you make sense of the difference between then and now?

LAURENT DUVERNAY-TARDIF: I mean, you know, that transition going from playing the NFL in front of 80,000 people, that energy you feel in a stadium to, like, being a medical student or a doctor or an orderly now in those long-term care facility, it's... it's something I'm kind of used to. You know, I've been doing that for the past six years in the NFL. Every offseason, I come back. I feel like now, though, it's it's just even harder to transition. And going from, you know, the biggest, like I was saying, like the ultimate team experience to like three months later, working in the front line, a long-term care facility, that transition has been quite something. And I think it's really that experience that kind of motivate my decision to opt out this year.

MATT GALLOWAY: What is it like to be on that stage in front of 80,000 people?

LAURENT DUVERNAY-TARDIF: Can I even describe it? You know, your name is announced. You just walk down the tunnel. You cannot hear yourself scream, the energy, the crowd, the intensity of the game. It's... that's why I love football. Like, I love football to win games at home in front of our fans, our community. It's just... it's just an amazing feeling. And that's what I miss most about the game for sure.

MATT GALLOWAY: Any regrets and not being there?

LAURENT DUVERNAY-TARDIF: Yeah, especially as the year go on, you know? Every every game, it's harder to watch the... the... you know, as the days get colder, and the stakes are higher, and the playoff and everything, I miss it. This is the time of the year that I love to play football, in the snow, in the cold with your team-mates every game matter because it's a single elimination process. And... and, of course, I miss it. I regret it a little bit. But at the same time, I feel like every big decision, it's not black or white, you know. And for me, I think that five years from now, I'm going to be able to look at 2020 and be like, all right. I followed my conviction, and I made a move that I'm going to be proud of.

MATT GALLOWAY: Take me back to last spring. You were on a boat when you learned about the pandemic. Is this right?

LAURENT DUVERNAY-TARDIF: I mean, the first time I actually heard about the pandemic was the Thursday before the Super Bowl game. Some reporter actually asked me what were my thought about COVID? And back then, I was like, can you just let me focus on the game? [laughing] And back then, it was also, you know, only a couple of thousand cases in Wuhan, China. But the story is that when I got back to Montreal, two weeks of almost, you know, going manic because I was super excited. And at some point, I need... like, I need to I need to move on. I need to regroup in order to, like, get ready for next season. So my girlfriend and I rented a sailboat down in the... in the Caribbean. And because my family and I love to sail, and we were kind of away in remote from wireless connection and stuff like that. So at some point, we realized, OK, we've got to get back. And we actually got back in Canada on March 12, which was the day that the government required returning travellers to do a self-installation for 14 days. So I was like right in the middle of it when I got back.

MATT GALLOWAY: When did you realize that everything was going to change?

LAURENT DUVERNAY-TARDIF: Good question. I want to say when... when the NBA shut down. NBA was like the first league to actually shut down. And, at the beginning, I was like, oh, my offseason is is screwed! And I was seeing the pandemic really from almost egocentric way. You know, it was like, this is my year. I'm supposed to enjoy it and now I'm not going to be able to. And then, of course, after like a few days, you realize that you're really privileged. And... And my mindset went to that to like, how can I help? And that's how I ended up in long-term care facility. But I feel like, for me, I was always seeing the 2020 season as something possible, you know? And when the NBA shut down, which was followed by the NHL, I was like, OK, we're we're in something major. And there's going to be some repercussion for a longer period than just my offseason.

MATT GALLOWAY: When did you realize that you could help? That... that you could play a role in this?

LAURENT DUVERNAY-TARDIF: You know, as an athlete, you build a platform, you have a tribune, you can... You can reach people. And I feel like as a professional athlete, it's almost your responsibility to get involved and promote something that you believe in. And for some people, some player, it was like the right to vote movement this year, or racial inequality. But... and I feel like, for me, it's health. You know, I'm a medical student. I graduate, got my M.D. So it just made sense to to do everything I can to promote, like a safety measure, social-isolation. And, at some point, I was like, maybe I can do more, you know? And at the beginning, there was a question of I got my M.D., but I haven't done residency yet. So I cannot practice as a physician in a hospital setting. And then, the government asked people to go help in long-term care facility. And I was like, this is my opportunity to help and contribute. And I was part of a movement. Like, thousands of people went back in those long-term care facility in Quebec to help fight the virus, support the people that were there. And and, you know, at the beginning, I went in there with really a mindset of trying to optimize everything a little bit like a medical student, like treating plan, medication. And and I came to realize at some point that, you know, those people, those elderly folks, they're not going to go back home. The reality is that it's either going to be COVID or something else. And what I realized after spending time with the nurses, the orderly down there, it's... it's that what matters is, is comfort. It's dignity. And really, the difference between treating and caring for a patient. And that's what those people do day in and day out with so much dedication and passion. And I have a ton of respect for all of them.

MATT GALLOWAY: You went in in the peak of the first wave of this, and it was very bad in those long-term care homes in Quebec. What were you expecting when you went in?

LAURENT DUVERNAY-TARDIF: I was expecting, like, I guess organized chaos, you know? Like, kind of a state of emergency, but at the same time, clear protocol and... and I don't want to... I don't want to say negative thing about how people manage it because I don't know. I think we still don't even have all the answers. But I feel like when I got in there, I was like, all right, well, I'm just going to forget about it and move on, forget about it and move on. And then at some point, you come home, and you're like, well, this is not supposed to happen, you know, in Quebec, in Canada in 2020, this is not supposed to be happening this way. And, you know, I have a ton of example. I don't know if it is the place to share those, but there's things that are going to leave a mark. And for me, but I think for everybody who went and worked in there. And it just speaks to the sacrifice and the dedication that you need in order to get through these days. You know, I was only there a few days a week, but there's people that are forced to do overtime and get their vacation cancelled. And day in and day out, they care with a smile on their face, and they try to do their best. And it's just it's, you know, sometimes you try to put in place rules at a macro level, but in a real environment, it doesn't make sense, or in that specific situation, it doesn't make sense. And to be able to, like, see the big picture when you see the adversity and the challenge that ends on right in front of you, sometimes it's it's frustrating, for sure.

MATT GALLOWAY: Tell me about, I mean, as much as you want to say, but one of those things that, as you say, will leave a mark, one of those... those experiences there, that... that when you got home, as you said, that you said to yourself, this isn't supposed to happen.

LAURENT DUVERNAY-TARDIF: Well, it's a simple thing, like just the way our red zone was looking, like, you know, you test patient every week or so, or when they have symptoms, you test them. And those patients sometimes have been in their room for the past 20 years. And then for the last six months, you ask them to quarantine in their room without the visitor, without family. Just that by itself. You know, the fact that the only human interaction that you have on a day-to-day basis is with a medical professional with a visor, glove, gown. And then when somebody tests positive for COVID, you rush into their room, you take them out of their room and those people are just yelling. They don't know what's happening. And... and you put them in the cafeteria that's now a red zone with plywood. And they don't know where they are. They don't know what's going on. Maybe a lady has a mirror that she really loves because she's a little bit demented and she needs it in order to cope with reality. And you don't have time for that. Like, you got to put her in the red zone. And... and you don't even know if she's going to come back. And, I don't know, when you put that in perspective, you're like, oh, my God, what... what? Like, this is... this... this is a traumatic experience for us as we were pulling her out of there, but also, and mostly for her, you know, can you imagine?! Like, it's... it's crazy. And we have other ways, like could we do it any other way? I don't think so. Like, we have to put patients who test positive in a... in an isolated environment. But it's like at what cost, and does it really, you know, that patient maybe has a year or two left anyway. Anyway, it just... it just... you just ask yourself so many question. And I don't have the answer, to be honest. But... but some some things were really hard to do. And they're going to leave a mark for sure.

MATT GALLOWAY: You could imagine that one of the questions people might ask themselves is whether they should stay in that situation? I mean, you come in as a volunteer, and as you said, it's overwhelming. Did you ever think this is too much for me, I have to... I don't know that I can... I have a contribution that I can make, but I don't know if I can actually stay here?

LAURENT DUVERNAY-TARDIF: Yeah, I think it's.. it's important to respect, I guess, everybody's ability to cope with those type of situation. And the government put in place a program where I think they trained like close to 10,000 orderly to go help in a really short amount of time. Like, it was... it was... it was amazing to see how they were able to pull that out. And then you read in the newspaper that some are, of course, frustrated, some are not staying for long and... but who can blame them? Like, everybody is doing their best. At the beginning, it all started with a desire to help. And I think... I think it's not a time to judge anybody. I feel like it's a time to acknowledge the sacrifice and your willingness to go in there and help in the first place. And I'm telling you, I feel like every little action at the end of the day is what's going to make a difference. Like, if you stay there for a couple of days, a couple of weeks, a couple of months, or you've been there for 20 year. I mean, just say thank you to those people. At the end of the day, everybody went in there with the good intention.

MATT GALLOWAY: It's a cliche, but it does take a team, right? And I mean, you... you come out of an environment where it does take a team. You are part of a team, and your place on that team helps the team win. Do you see comparisons between your day job, if I could put it that way, and the work that you were doing in the long-term care?

LAURENT DUVERNAY-TARDIF: Yes, absolutely, and that goes for, you know, medicine as a whole. As a physician, you're nobody without the help of the orderly and the nurses. And I think you need those people because they're the health care professional and track the most with the patient. And you need that feedback in order to better care, the same way you got to be available to them when they're telling you like, hey, that patient has a little redness, maybe you should prescribe this cream, or so on. And it's really a team effort. And it's all about communication. When you look at a shift, whether it's in the emergency room or the long-term care facility, you spend so much time signing over, you know, giving the information to the next team, whether it's the night shift, the day shift, the evening shift. And that's really what makes a difference. In order to give good continuity of care, good quality of care, you need to be able to pass along information and work as a team. The same way you going to be working as a team in football. Like, football is probably the ultimate example when it comes to teamwork. Because I'm 320 pounds, there's no way I'm going to catch a football the way Tyreek Hill does it. But don't ask Tyreek Hill to block Aaron Donald. So it's... it's... I think teamwork is essential in both.

MATT GALLOWAY: And humility as well. I mean, you're a Super Bowl champion, and you could be on the top of the world, and you go into that kind of situation. How important is humility in a moment like that?

LAURENT DUVERNAY-TARDIF: I guess it's important. I want to say that, you know, being open-minded, respectful of the other and working as a team is even more important. And, you know, for me. You know, the Lou Marsh, the Sports Illustrated, everything you mentioned at the beginning of the interview, like, yes, I'm... I'm honoured to receive those... those... those award. But at the end of the day, like, I feel like my definition of who's a real hero in 2020 really changed, you know? Because I wouldn't be able to do what Gelen, the assistant nurse that I'm working with, or I was working with yesterday, is doing day in, day out, doing overtime, coming at like 4:00 in the morning to split the night shift with somebody from the evening because they don't have enough people. Like, the amount of dedication, passion, and nobody is there to, like, pat them on the back and say good job, or give them awards, or opportunity to talk on the radio like we're doing right now. Like, they're doing it because they really care. And so I feel like being humble or at least trying to is really the least I can do when I see all those people working like that.

MATT GALLOWAY: When did you realize that... that you had to opt-out of the football season this year?

LAURENT DUVERNAY-TARDIF: I mean, I think it's a chain of events. You know, working for ten weeks in the long-term care facility in the spring for sure, made me realize, like, the impact COVID was having on patients, on their families, on the health care community. And then, at some point, I feel like I kind of asked myself the question, like after everything I witnessed, does it make sense to cross the border, go in Kansas City, travel on a week-to-week basis, potentially exposing different community just to play the sport that I love? And... and it's tough because you put that and, of course, when you look at it, you're like, no, I shouldn't be playing, but then you're like, I'm coming off a Super Bowl. The team's looking good. I'm probably at the peak of my career. And there's, of course, the financial aspect of things, and it just makes it almost impossible to know what's the right move, you know? And... and when I decided to opt-out, I actually talked to Coach Reid in Kansas City, and I knew I was going to opt-out, but I still wasn't 100 per cent convinced. And when I spoke with him, and he was like, I totally respect your decision. I'm going to support you. The amount of weight to just lift off my shoulder. Like Coach Reid is... is the number one coach in the NFL. Like, he's my mentor, and I have a ton of respect for him. He's been helping me for the past six years. Whether it was, like, predraft, he was telling me like, I'm going to try to help you graduate in medicine, through the time I actually got my M.D. to now, you know, last July when he was like, I'm going to support you. And, and at some point, I was like, OK, I'm... I'm making the right call, you know? And... and, yeah, it's not an easy decision, but I've been living with it for the past, what, four months now? Six months?

MATT GALLOWAY: Doing the right thing is not always the easy thing.

LAURENT DUVERNAY-TARDIF: Yeah. And, I mean, and who knows if it's the right thing? Like, but... but the way the pandemic has been evolving for the past four months, I feel like... I feel like I'm reassured. Like, at the beginning, I was like maybe in two months from now everything's going to be good, and I'm going to be like, gee, I could have been there for the playoffs or something. But with the way things are evolving, I feel like now I'm more in peace with my decision. And I think I made the right call.

MATT GALLOWAY: One of the things that... that... Sports Illustrated was celebrating you for was its "Athlete Activist of the Year". Do you see yourself as an activist?

LAURENT DUVERNAY-TARDIF: Yeah, you know, I feel like athlete, we have... we have that opportunity and maybe even that that responsibility to speak up, you know, to... to choose a cause that we believe in that's in-line with our core value and promote it because we have that platform, you know? And some people are doing it because of true injustice, whether it's racial inequality, the right to vote. Like, I was saying, like me, I'm doing something that it's, I think, pretty much none are doable. Like, health is essential, and yes, maybe in that sense, I'm an activist, but on the other hand, I feel like I'm just, you know, doing what I'm going to be doing for the next 40 years as a physician.

MATT GALLOWAY: Laurent Duvernay-Tardif, we're going to pause there and continue after the CBC News. We'll talk about the vaccine, and vaccine hesitancy, and the role of sport in these difficult times. And That's on its way. And later, Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland is here to speak further about vaccines, travel restrictions and more. I'm Matt Galloway. "The Current" is back on CBC Radio One in six minutes. Stay with us.

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Canadian NFL player Laurent Duvernay-Tardif on swapping football for the COVID-19 front lines; Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland on securing vaccines and border restrictions

Guests: Laurent Duvernay-Tardif, Chyrstia Freeland

MATT GALLOWAY: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. And you're listening to "The Current".

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MATT GALLOWAY: Still to come, Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland on the vaccine supply and building back Canada's economy. And then, in 30 minutes, we return to the Arab Spring, from the eyes of a Syrian revolutionary now living in Canada. But first, we return to a Super Bowl champion turned front line health care worker.

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MATT GALLOWAY: Laurent Duvernay-Tardif is still with me. He was a guard on the Kansas City Chiefs last year when they won the Super Bowl. And while Kansas City is going back to the Super Bowl this year, he won't be joining them. He chose to leave football this season, and put his medical studies into practice. He's been working as an orderly in a long-term care home in Quebec. Laurent, so much of this pandemic has been politicized, everything from wearing a mask to getting the vaccine. Given the megaphone that you have, is... is there an opportunity for you to help bridge that gap?

LAURENT DUVERNAY-TARDIF: Hopefully, hopefully. And I'm still trying to understand people who resist, you know, vaccines, wearing a mask. For me, it's just... it's just the least we can do. You know, after seeing all the sacrifices that those health care workers are doing on a day-to-day basis, to wear a mask, to stay home a little bit at night, [chuckle] it's really the least we can do when it comes to individual sacrifice in order to care for the greater good of the community. At least that's my point. And then there's the whole thing about vaccine. Like, in med school, you learn it's probably the number one invention that's saved the biggest number of lives. Like, not long ago, we were like scared like hell for polio, and now we don't even talk about it anymore. Like, vaccines change the way we live. And yes, maybe... maybe, you know, we did it in a really short amount of time. But at the same time, think about like the people, the money, like the energy that was put into that, the research, the testing and everything. Like, at some point, I feel like this is almost bigger than, I mean, it is for sure, bigger than you and I. Like, who are we to to judge whether it's safe or not? Like, at some point, you got to trust, like in a time of crisis, like we're going through right now. You got to respect that people have more knowledge than you. And you gotta rally. Like, I feel like we should all be together with that vision of like almost seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. Like, a vaccine is what's going to make it better for us. Like, what else is going to happen? Like, daily new cases keep rising, like what's next? Like, what's going to make it better when the only thing we have is washing our hands and wearing a mask? Like, now, for the first time, we can be proactive about it. And I feel like, for me, it's a no-brainer.

MATT GALLOWAY: I find it amazing that in the Pro Football Hall of Fame, your equipment's there, but it's not your football equipment. It's... it's your medical uniform. Why did you do that?

LAURENT DUVERNAY-TARDIF: I mean, they asked me for it, and I was like, this is probably the only way I'm going to end up in the Hall of Fame. So, yeah!

MATT GALLOWAY: [both laughing] I don't know about that!

LAURENT DUVERNAY-TARDIF: No but, you know, that brings me to maybe another topic, but I think it's related, you know, I'm never going to be the the best football player. I'm never going to be the best doctor. Like, I won the best athlete of the year in Canada with the Lou Marsh along with Alfonso Davies. But I'm never going to be the best Canadian athlete. Like, there's no way. I'm 320 pounds. How do you want me to, like, run and be athletic? But... but I think when you find your niche, like, your focus of interest. And, for me, it was like balancing football with medicine, then you can excel in something that not a lot of people have done before. And, you know, for me to hang my scrub in the Football Hall of Fame, it's really an honour and maybe even more because it's not about football. It transcended football. And I think that's... that is the role of sports in our society. It's not only to entertain people, it's to give a voice, to... to... to bring people together. Sport is almost like a connective tissue in our society. And right now, more than ever, we need it. Like I said, my decision to opt-out, it was not like pointing a finger at the NFL, saying, like, we shouldn't be playing football right now. It was me, for me personally, I don't think I should be playing football. But should football be going on right now? Yes, absolutely. Should the NHL be going on right now? Yes, absolutely. Because, yes, we do risk it a little bit. But I think it has the power to bring people together. And that's what we need right now.

MATT GALLOWAY: This has been, the pandemic has been, a chance for some people, a lot of us to... I mean, because we're not working, or we're not going out, or we're not seeing people, to kind of reflect a bit on... on the life that we're living. You've home a lot with with your partner and with your family. What's that been like?

LAURENT DUVERNAY-TARDIF: It's for sure different. It's like everybody keeps saying how it's traumatizing to retire from football because you're all by yourself at home. But I guess ten times worse because you can get out. But... but at the same time, you know, I keep saying to myself how privileged I am to a certain extent. And I feel like this is what I got to do right now, I got to stay home, train, go to work, study online. And that's... that's my life. And I don't like to complain, like maybe I'm too much of a follower, but I'm like, hey, let's do it. If people say we've got to do it, do it.

MATT GALLOWAY: I can't call you a doctor yet, but I will be able to call you a doctor soon, once you do your residency and you pick a speciality. Do you have a sense as to where you'd want to go, given what you've I was going to say been through but been in in the last year or so, do you have a sense as to where you want to end up?

LAURENT DUVERNAY-TARDIF: Good question, honestly, like if you were to ask me that a year ago, I would have been like, I want to do emergency medicine. All my elective rotation as a medical student were in emergency medicine, and maybe sport medicine on the side or something like that. And now, I feel... I'm asking the question, myself the question like, do have a responsibility to maybe instead of promoting health one-on-one with patients, to promote health at a population level. And that's why I'm doing public health is because I want to see if it's something that I would like to do. And, you know, at some point, I realized, too, like when you're meeting with a patient, what's so critical as a physician, I think, is... is to build a trust. And I feel like with my media exposure and everything, it's almost detrimental to the interaction I'm having and I'm going to have with patients. So that's why I'm like, do I want to stop doing all that and focussing only on medicine? Or do I want to take that opportunity maybe to promote a greater message to a greater audience? So I don't have exactly the answer. But... but that's kind of my dilemma right now.

MATT GALLOWAY: I mean, and you sort of hinted at this, but going through this year, like, what have you learned about yourself, do you think?

LAURENT DUVERNAY-TARDIF: You know, I think as something maybe as a football player playing in front of big crowds and stuff, you... you build yourself a little bit of an ego. And I'm trying to stay away from that, but sometimes it's hard. And I feel like this pandemic has been putting everything in perspective. you're like, who am I to complain that sometimes my knee hurts a little bit before a game or something, or complaining because I don't have the right cleats to play on a wet surface. Like, what does it matter? Nothing! And, yes, I think sport is important. But at the end of the day, I feel like right now we're seeing what really matter, and it's... snd it's people around you to value those relationship that you have, and then just just helping, like being aware of what's going on, the inequalitys, people who are really suffering for real. And then trying to find a way to contribute to make this environment a better place.

MATT GALLOWAY: Do you think you'll go back? I mean, if we were to talk again this time next year, will we see you on television making a run for the Super Bowl again with the Chiefs?

LAURENT DUVERNAY-TARDIF: No, we got to. We got to. I feel like that's why the decision was so hard to make back in July. It's because I feel like I still got more football left in me, and... and yeah, I wish I'll be able to go back to Kansas City.

MATT GALLOWAY: But you really have an idea on what's coming next, which is exciting.

LAURENT DUVERNAY-TARDIF: Yeah, I think so. And no matter what happen, I think I'm going to be happy. I'm surrounded with, you know, incredible people. I'm privileged. I want to help. I'll find a way to do it, whether it's from philanthropic action, with my foundation, from medicine, everything is going to come together. I think now, I've just had that maybe a little too much time to reflect on it with the pandemic and more time alone. [chuckling]

MATT GALLOWAY: I really appreciate talking to you. It's a real pleasure.

LAURENT DUVERNAY-TARDIF: Thank you so much.

MATT GALLOWAY: Laurent Duvernay-Tardif is a Super Bowl champion and an orderly in a Quebec long-term care home. He was in Montreal.

[Music: Funky rock]

MATT GALLOWAY: You're listening to "The Current" on CBC Radio One. My name is Matt Galloway. One year into this pandemic, nothing is back to normal. And among the many things still out of sorts is the Canadian economy. The person tasked with getting the country out of the COVID recession, among other duties, is Deputy Prime Minister and Finance Minister Chrystia Freeland, and joins... she joins me now. Chrystia Freeland, good morning.

CHRYSTIA FREELAND: Good morning, Matt. Great to hear you.

MATT GALLOWAY: It's great to have you on the program. It was a year ago this week that Canada had its first case of COVID. And you don't need me to tell you that our lives have changed so much in the last 12 months or so. Just briefly, and personally, what have you learned over the course of this year?

CHRYSTIA FREELAND: [sigh] OK, on a trivial note, I have learned that my house is too small to happily contain five people trying to go to school and do their jobs without occasionally yelling at each other. On a more profound note, trust matters and community matters. I think where we have been successful as a country, and where provinces and territories and reserves in our country have been most successful in fighting COVID, it has been where you have seen communities really come together. People be prepared to trust each other and to make sacrifices for their neighbours.

MATT GALLOWAY: People are looking for the end point of this and we hear that, you know, there's light at the end of the tunnel and the way to get to that light is through a vaccine. This week, as we saw, you know, wildly contagious new variants of the virus spreading in Ontario and perhaps beyond. There are no doses of vaccine arriving in Canada this week. Vaccine appointments across the country are being cancelled. A vaccine clinic in Toronto had to close after a couple of days. South of the border, the U.S. administration says it will vaccinate 150 million people in its first 100 days. And that the vaccine will be wildly available to its citizens by spring. Where is the urgency in our vaccination program?

CHRYSTIA FREELAND: Urgency is a great word, Matt. And as you were winding up your question, [chuckling] what I was about to say is our government totally gets the urgency of this issue. We are all hands on deck on getting vaccines to Canada. We understand how central it is. As finance minister, I totally understand how important it is to get vaccines. I think it's important for people to appreciate what a good thing it is that we have a diverse vaccine portfolio. We are not dependent on any single vaccine producer, and I think we're seeing the value of that now. It's important --

MATT GALLOWAY: But that... that --.

CHRYSTIA FREELAND: Yeah, go ahead.

MATT GALLOWAY: That portfolio hasn't... Isn't going to deliver until perhaps the end of March, or later by the time the vaccines are caught up. And I guess, I mean, people are wondering, you know, two per cent of the population has been vaccinated. We're something like 17th globally in terms of per capita vaccinations. The U.S. has this wildly ambitious target. And people wonder, I suppose, why we aren't matching that urgency?

CHRYSTIA FREELAND: Look, I think that it is absolutely fair for Canadians to feel and understand and see the urgency of getting vaccines into the country, of getting their loved ones vaccinated, especially the most vulnerable Canadians. I totally share that urgency. What I can say to Canadians is our government is totally, relentlessly focussed on this. And not just the government, there are a lot of people in Canada working very, very hard on this. We are going to get six million doses in the first quarter. And as the prime minister has said, every Canadian who wants a vaccine is going to get one by September. Whould I like that to be sooner? 100 per cent. Are we making every phone call possible? For sure. But there is a huge race in the world to get vaccines. And, yeah, we're we're duking it out to get them.

MATT GALLOWAY: How is that race going to affect us? What happens after the first quarter? We're learning now that the European Union is threatening to block vaccine exports. The German health minister has called for vaccine exports to be authorized by the EU. If that happens, is there anything that we can do to ensure a reliable supply of these vaccines?

CHRYSTIA FREELAND: So I don't believe in going down hypothetical pathways. I don't think that's appropriate for a minister of the Crown. But in interviews. But let me tell you, in our work, we are looking at every hypothetical scenario, at every possibility, and doing everything we can to ensure Canada is going to get its vaccines no matter what. And that's, as I said, Matt, one of the reasons it's so good that we have a very diverse vaccine portfolio.

MATT GALLOWAY: One of the reasons why this is such an urgent issue is because of these new variants that are spreading in parts of Canada. There are calls, as you know, for stricter travel restrictions. And I know the cabinet discussed this last night. Doug Ford, premier of Ontario, has said close the borders. He wants non-residents and non-citizens to be barred from entering Canada. Would your government consider doing that?

CHRYSTIA FREELAND: So I am not going to talk about specifically what was discussed in cabinet yesterday. That would be really inappropriate. I very much share, and our government shares, the view that we need to bring in even tougher border measures than the ones we have right now. I think Canadians are rightly concerned about these new variants, and we need to do everything we can to keep them from getting into the country. Precisely how we do that is something the government is discussing and looking at very urgently right now. I do also want to say the borders are really important part of it, and we are very focussed on that. It is also the case that one of the ways we protect ourselves against these areas is by getting the spread of COVID down inside the country. The less this virus is spreading, the less the chance that it mutates. And the less the chance that we have new variants take off here.

MATT GALLOWAY: To that point, would you... would you --

CHRYSTIA FREELAND: It's yet another reason for us to follow the rules, even though I do know how tough it is.

MATT GALLOWAY: I was going to say, to that point, would you look at banning interprovincial travel? I mean, there are cases of some variants in Ontario. People are worried elsewhere in the country, people are moving back and forth across the country. Would you look at restricting interprovincial travel?

CHRYSTIA FREELAND: So my very, very strong kind of urging to Canadians, you and I are both in Toronto today, I'm in my house in Toronto, and I would just say to everyone, particularly in a province like Ontario, where we have a tough lockdown in place, now is the time for us to stay home. That's what we need to do. Some provinces and territories have put in place restrictions on travel from outside the province or territory into the province or territory, places, provinces in Atlantic Canada, the territories have done that. And those measures have been successful. So where provinces and territories seek to do that, they will have our support.

MATT GALLOWAY: So you would support, for example, the idea of an Ontario bubble or a BC bubble?

CHRYSTIA FREELAND: I am not a doctor, I'm not a public health officer, and I would never presume to make decisions for them. But I really believe that where provinces and territories are acting to crush COVID, particularly now with these new variants out there, they will have the federal government support. And that's one reason, Matt, that we have put in place our extensive economic support, support for Canadians, support for Canadian businesses, including the lockdown support. That lockdown support for businesses subject to targeted lockdown restrictions is there to make it possible for businesses to get through those restrictions. And also, to make it easier for public health officials, for provincial and territorial leaders to make those agonizingly difficult decisions about saying we have to shut this part of the economy down to keep people healthy and safe and actually to make it possible to reopen our economy afterwards.

MATT GALLOWAY: What about the agonizing decisions that individuals make? Almost universally, public health officials say there should be paid sick leave to allow people who are sick to stay home and not lose their homes, for example. Provincial governments have said that it's the federal government's responsibility. In Ontario, they're not interested, the government is, in increasing or putting in paid sick leave. Will you increase the federal sick leave benefit and shorten the application time so that people can afford to stay home? Right now, they get 450 dollars after tax for up to two weeks, but that's in many ways not enough. And we've talked to people who can't afford to stay home or even get a test because they're worried that they wouldn't be able to pay the rent or pay a mortgage. So will your government look at increasing that federal sick leave benefit?

CHRYSTIA FREELAND: Matt, I'm a Liberal, and I am a big believer in paid sick leave. I think it's something that all employers should be offering their workers right now. I think it makes health sense, and it makes economic sense. If we are not making it possible for people to do the right thing and stay home, we shouldn't be surprised when they don't do it. The federal government has done... has done its job here. And we have put in place an extraordinary COVID sick leave benefit. That is there for people to make it easier for them to do the right thing. Many provinces have also put in place additional support, and I think that's a great thing to.

MATT GALLOWAY: So the federal government would not increase.... I mean, again, when Ontario says this is on the federal government, other jurisdictions have said the same thing. The federal government will not increase that benefit?

CHRYSTIA FREELAND: The federal government has put in place significant support to make it easier for Canadians to do the right thing. We are always open in all of our COVID support programs to looking at ways to make them work better. And we we're always going to be.

MATT GALLOWAY: Let me ask you about what's happening south of the border. New administration. People thought this would be perhaps a new day for Canada. Already, there are challenges, one of which is the "Buy American" policy, which was announced officially yesterday. What did you learn in negotiating NAFTA 2.0 that you think might help Canada here in dealing with a "Buy American" policy?

CHRYSTIA FREELAND: I think that we as a country learned a few things. The first thing we learned is that protectionism is bipartisan in the United States. That's been clear to me for a while. And I don't think any of us who've been working on this issue have been surprised by latest developments. The second thing I think we learned is we are successful in our work with the United States when we play as a Team Canada. And I'm very confident that's the approach we are going to bring to our work with this new administration. The third thing is that the trading relationship between Canada and the United States is really generous. It is really a unique relationship of tremendous interdependency and also of tremendous mutual benefit. And when we do the hard work, the day-to-day, issue-by-issue, sector-by-sector work of explaining to our American partners what exactly is going on, what exactly the relationships and the many, many trades back and forth across the border are in specific areas, we find very, very often much more often than not, that our partners understand that this trading relationship is mutually beneficial and we need to be sure that it continues.

MATT GALLOWAY: So, do you have specific assurances that Canadian firms would be exempt from "Buy America"?

CHRYSTIA FREELAND: The first conversation President Biden had with a foreign leader was with Prime Minister Trudeau. That was a very important message, a very conscious and clear signal to Canada. And it's one that we really need to all be aware of. On that call, the prime minister raised "Buy America". So the battle is already joined. And we're just going to do what we always do on Canada-U.S. trade, which is roll up our sleeves, do the work, find our allies and our partners in the U.S., and, you know, so far, it's worked. And I am really confident with this new administration that approach is going to work as well.

MATT GALLOWAY: We just have a few seconds left. How much easier is this without President Trump in the frame?

CHRYSTIA FREELAND: Well, my direct counterpart, Secretary of the Treasury Janet Yellen, and isn't it nice to say that, was just confirmed last night. I haven't had a chance to speak to her yet. I have to say, I am really looking forward to it. She is a remarkable person, a remarkable woman, a remarkable economist. And I'm looking forward to building that relationship, not to mention looking forward to speaking with Vice President Kamala Harris.

MATT GALLOWAY: And is it easier under new management?

CHRYSTIA FREELAND: I haven't talked to either of them yet, so I'll have to let you know.

MATT GALLOWAY: We will chat again.

CHRYSTIA FREELAND: It's nice it's going to be two women, though.

MATT GALLOWAY: Chrystia Freeland, it's good to talk to you as always. And we'll talk again. Thank you.

CHRYSTIA FREELAND: OK, take care.

MATT GALLOWAY: Chrystia Freeland, Canada's deputy prime minister and Canada's finance minister, your regional update is next. And then, we continue our special series on the Arab Spring ten years later. This morning, Noura Al-Jizawi takes us back to Syria, where she and thousands of others pushed back against that regime. What was accomplished in those demonstrations? We'll find out her story in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to "The Current". We'll be right back. Stay with us.

[Music: Theme]

Syrian protester living in Canada

Guest: Noura Al-Jizawi

MATT GALLOWAY: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to "The Current". The people demand the fall of the regime, it was the slogan Born in Tunisia after the self-immolation of Mohamed Bouazizi. By the spring of 2011, it had spread to Syria.

[Lots of cheering in unison].

MATT GALLOWAY: This was April 22nd when people gathered by the thousands in series... cities across Syria hoping to break free of decades of dictatorship. They did not know then that the country would instead be engulfed by a decade of civil war. For the final part of our series on the legacy of the Arab Spring, I'm joined this morning by Noura Al-Jizawi. She played a key role in the Syrian uprising and served as vice president of the National Coalition for Syrian Revolutionary and Opposition Forces. Noura Al-Jizawi came to Canada as a scholar at risk at the University of Toronto, and she is now a research assistant at the Citizen Lab there at the U of T. Noura, good morning.

NOURA AL-JIZAWI: Good morning.

MATT GALLOWAY: Take me back to 2011. What was it then that inspired you to join the movement that was developing to bring down the regime of the Syrian leader, Bashar al-Assad?

NOURA AL-JIZAWI: Yeah, to be honest, and to put everything in the right that the revolution, as I consider it, didn't start really in the 2011. Rather, we had a couple of movements and attempts to negotiate with the regime to conduct any kind of institutional, constitutional and security reform, 2004 and before that, 2001. Definitely, as all people around the world, when the protests started in Tunisia, and then expanded to Egypt and other countries in the region, people who dream of change, they were waiting. And, to be honest, we had this debate among the activists, the young generation, we were so motivated, and we believed that the revolution would start in Syria in any mean. While the older generation, they were more skeptical, and they were thinking that we might never have a revolution in the meantime. Because in Tunisia and in Egypt in some way, there were a margin of freedom for the political parties, for civil society. While in Syria, we had none. It was the disagreement point. But afterwards, I remember one of my friends who was 75 years old. I saw him in the second protest in my city in Homs. And then I told him, I said, I told you we will have a revolution. And now I'm so happy we are here together.

MATT GALLOWAY: You mentioned living in Homs at the time. Tell me about what you were involved in then. What sort of actions were you doing to protest the regime?

NOURA AL-JIZAWI: It was quite challenging in the beginning. Because, first of all, we needed definitely the power of people, and the power of the revolution is having people in the street. I was personally involving, along with other activists, in encouraging people to go to the streets to protest, organizing the protest. Also, talking with people about our dreams and how we need to shape and format our slogans. And then we started talking to the international media. It was also another shape of challenges because the regime suspended all the international media and sent the vast majority of journalists and correspondents back to their countries. So following the experience of the other activists in other countries, we used the social media to share the videos and pictures about our protest and our revolution.

MATT GALLOWAY: What did it feel like when you were out there with people on the streets?

NOURA AL-JIZAWI: I feel like the 23 years I lived before the revolution were nothing. And the moment when I really came to this world, I was born, I had blood in my body, I had soul just running in my body. It was the moment when I went to street. It was unbelievable how you challenge and confront the dictator face-to-face, and to shout, to raise your voice while you are looking in the eyes of the security guards and security officers. They were holding guns, and they were so afraid of our voices. So I remember the first protest I went to, the first couple of moments, I was unable to raise my voice, and I feel like, oh, I can't say that. Where's my voice?

MATT GALLOWAY: Because you were frightened of that?

NOURA AL-JIZAWI: No, just because I think because of the excitement, I was so excited, I couldn't say anything. And then the moment the first letter came out of my mouth, I never stoped. And I was just saying back loudly and loudly free the Syria. Syria is ours, not the Assads. Were you concerned were you afraid of the risks that that were there by you going out and being involved in those protests?

MATT GALLOWAY: Were you concerned? Were you afraid of the risks that... that were there by you going out and being involved in those protests?

NOURA AL-JIZAWI: I knew the risk, but honestly, I didn't care. Because I believe that we need in order to have a revolution, we need to sacrifice. And I was one of these people who were more than ready to sacrifice. And even what's going to happen? Would I be like murdered? That's OK. Back then, I believed even if the regime murdered me, hundreds of other young people and dreamers would be able to continue in this cause. And they will never stop. Even if I got arrested, I believed in the other revolutionary activists and dreamers who were absolutely willing to keep moving forward in the cause.

MATT GALLOWAY: What about your family, what did your family think when... when you started to oppose the regime?

NOURA AL-JIZAWI: Honestly, I was unable to tell them.

MATT GALLOWAY: You weren't able to tell them?

NOURA AL-JIZAWI: No, I kept that a secret. [laughing]

MATT GALLOWAY: What if you had told them? What would they have said, do you think?

NOURA AL-JIZAWI: Afterward, yeah, definitely I told them. But before the revolution we had these kind of discussions and they were saying, yeah, it's a great but we know that this regime is a criminal and they will commit all kinds of crimes and violence to silent on people. So I didn't want to, first of all, I didn't tell them because I didn't want to make them, like in a situation to keep feeling concerns about my safety and security. On the other hand, because I didn't want to be in a position to find my family, like keeping me at home and then allow me to go to protest. Definitely, I understand why because my parents, they love me and they don't want me to be like in such position. But, on the other hand, after a couple of months, I told them that I believe in the revolution, and the revolution is something I've been dreaming of years ago. And you cannot stop me because this is what you taught me, that this is what you said. Times over time. You said, if you want something, go and take it. No one will give it to you. And then he said, God bless you. And, yeah, definitely, I'm so proud of you. But then I discovered that even my family knew that my brothers and sisters separately were participating in somehow. So we were keeping these secrets. But also, we were, all of us, we were participating in any means. So my dad was unable to go to to protest, but he was in somehow supporting the revolution. My mom was a bit afraid of participating in the... In the protest, but on the other hand, she was helping in the medical field and the other sorts of assistance. So, it was great.

MATT GALLOWAY: And not surprising that you would be involved in this, given the fact that it runs right through your family, clearly.

NOURA AL-JIZAWI: [both chuckling] Yeah, definitely.

MATT GALLOWAY: You were arrested. You talked about the dangers in this. You were arrested in 2012. What were you accused of?

NOURA AL-JIZAWI: Oh, so many things. The first thing is terrorism.

MATT GALLOWAY: Terrorism?

NOURA AL-JIZAWI: Yeah, because the since the early days of the uprising in Syria, the counterpropaganda by the regime that the Syrian government is confronting terrorists. So I was accused to be a terrorist. One of the accusations was attempting to... it was like an attempt to take the presidency. And... and then when they said that in the court, I said, oh, why not?

MATT GALLOWAY: You had talked about the fear that people had of the security forces, that they were able to to operate in many ways with impunity. What was it like? I mean, it must have been terrifying. What was it like to be arrested?

NOURA AL-JIZAWI: So, the detention for me was not the first time. Before that, two times I was arrested. So when I was arrested, it was somehow expected, and definitely, it was terrifying. But on the other hand, because I knew, because I had some understanding of the detention in general and the goal of detention, I was calm, and I was all of my concentration was on how to stay strong in order to not share any names, not say anything about other activists in order to protect them so we can protect the cause.

MATT GALLOWAY: I mean, these memories have to be really painful, so say what you want to say, and feel free not to... to say which you are not comfortable in talking about. What were the conditions that you were held in? What happened to you when you were detained?

NOURA AL-JIZAWI: I was travelling from Damascus to Aleppo, and while I was sitting in the bus, a couple of men, they were not dressed in any uniform. They were having guns and holding their guns in the bus, so they came to me, and they said, come with us. I said where? And so they they just put their gun in my head and said go. I couldn't see anything because they covered my eyes, they tied my hands to the back, and they put me in a car. That's all. So, I was almost kidnapped. So, they drove the car about 30 minutes or 25 minutes, I cannot say exactly how much it took. But then, I found myself like in an office, and then they started, immediately, they started, like, there were accusations, and they were saying that some silly things that I am sectarian, and I am a part of the terrorist movement. And immediately, they started asking about the other group of activists. So I realized that this is what I need to focus on, not to say anything about people. And, yeah, absolutely they were trying to make it a bit difficult, saying that we know where your family live, we can kidnap them, we can rape your sisters, we can commit any... anything. You will spend your life here if you don't say anything about the location of X of the activists and so on. So everything was possible. And definitely, for me personally and back then, I was in the private cell, but I was listening to the voices and screams of other detainees who were screaming under the torture. And, yeah.

MATT GALLOWAY: How long were you held for?

NOURA AL-JIZAWI: Around six months.

MATT GALLOWAY: You said that one of your concerns, I mean, this was the concern that you had immediately, as soon as you were scooped off that bus, was that you would.. would give information about the people that that you were working with, the people that you were protesting with. I think there are many people facing what you were facing who... who would crack and who would give that information up. Why were you able to say so strong?

NOURA AL-JIZAWI: I honestly, I don't know, and I know many people who they were in a position they had to share information in order to survive, and absolutely, I don't blame them. I blame the authoritarian regime who torture people and violate their dignity. If you ask me if I can make it again now, I got detained again and tortured. I cannot guess. But all I remember that back then, I was begging my buddy, please, stay strong, please, we need to protect the other people, and we need to protect the cause. My life was not that valuable. The great value was for the revolution and for the safety of the others.

MATT GALLOWAY: You ultimately had to flee the country. As a Syrian, how difficult was that to leave home?

NOURA AL-JIZAWI: It was the hardest decision I took. I remember exactly when I left the apartment in Damascus. I had only a small bag, and it was only two weeks, so even I didn't have the opportunity to say goodbye to my grandmother, who passed away two years ago or to give the last hug to my dad. He was looking at me and saying, you will be back in two weeks. So it's OK. We don't want to cry. I think many other Syrians, they left in the same way. And, yeah, personally, I didn't expect that to happen to me. It was tough. And afterwards, it was so hard to coexist when I was in Turkey. It was so hard to coexist with the reality that I cannot go back because this is what I believe that my role was, to stay in the street and to keep the revolution alive.

MATT GALLOWAY: What do you miss the most about the country?

NOURA AL-JIZAWI: The revolution, the great desire and dreams of change and the belief that we can, we can, create and make the change.

MATT GALLOWAY: Let me ask you about that, you went to Turkey, and you helped lead the National Coalition for the Syrian Revolutionary and Opposition Forces. What were you hoping to achieve with that organization?

NOURA AL-JIZAWI: To be honest, we believe as revolutionary activists, we believe that it's super important to have, like, a political movement work side-to-side with the protest in the field. So when I was in in Turkey, and it was just a reality that I cannot go back to Syria, there was some efforts to expand the participation of Syrians. Many of the activists and revolutionary people in in Homs, in my city, said you are the one who should join on behalf of us. We trust you, and we believe that you will be transparent with us, and you will be a super powerful person and the key person to fight on behalf of us, and to raise our voices and demands. And, yeah, I did. [both chuckling] I did.

MATT GALLOWAY: There was a moment... there are many moments, it seemed, like at the beginning when there was hope that the protesters would be able to pressure Assad to step down, that there would be real change. A decade later, when you look back at that, why do you think the movement wasn't more successful?

NOURA AL-JIZAWI: I believe that, first of all, we... we still have the belief in the revolution and in the necessarity of change. So nothing changed from... from my side and I believe from the side of many activists. And I believe that even more people, and more ordinary citizens now, they believe in being in the same concept. On the other hand, first of all, Syria is a part of the region, so we cannot separate the Syrian affairs from the affairs of the of the region. Some key actors, they were trying to block any kind of democratic change. So this is on one hand. On the other hand, I believe that the atrocity of the Assad regime targeting the peaceful activists and attacking the people. I said that once and I'd like to say that again. We were happy to take the risk, and to change the risk as people participating in the movement. but when the regime's atrocity was expanding to target and attack the civilians, the children, the women and the vulnerable people, it was just crazy. And it was very clear that it's an attempt to make people turn against us, and keep blaming the revolution for all of this tragedy. And it's it's a lot. It's a lot of responsibility on the on the revolution and also afterward on the civil society. Until this moment, I believe that's the revolutionary people and the activists are the ones who suffer and who keep blaming themself or somehow keep just suffering and hurting whenever we hear or we see any picture of the tragedy or people, like what's going on now in the camps in the north, and the rain, and the snow, people and children are passing away, and suffering, and struggling in the cold and the crazy circumstances over there. It's harming us. But whenever the dictator was creating all of these atrocities.

MATT GALLOWAY: But it must be incredibly difficult for you to look, I mean, to your point and to look back at the country and see what's happened in that decade. I mean, a decade of civil war, of millions of people fleeing, of hundreds of thousands of people dying, and of a glorious country being... being reduced to rubble, in some ways. It must be knowing how difficult it was even for you to leave. It must be really difficult for you to look back at the country now.

NOURA AL-JIZAWI: Yeah, absolutely. It's... it's so difficult. But on the other hand, that makes me like an position that I really want to move forward, to keep moving forward. Because stepping back is not an option. And the revolution was absolutely, since the first moment, an attempt to make the life of Syrians better.

MATT GALLOWAY: What would it take then to bring real change to Syria? You said that the revolution is still alive in some ways, or in many ways. So what would it take to bring that change that you've been fighting for for a decade-plus?

NOURA AL-JIZAWI: It's yeah, it's absolutely complicated because there's a lot of other components out of our control. like the regional politics, the international politics. Now, everybody is looking to the new administration of President Biden. And, on the other hand, what we can control at least is keep working together, and never allow the trust to be broken and crack down. Speaking about democracy is a bit easy, but working towards making democracy real is a really hard job. It's not only about how to understand democracy, but how to make democracy real, which is, on one hand, how to raise awareness, how to discuss everything, how to train people and teach people and teach, first of all, the people in charge, how to be transparent, how to be accountable, and how really to create institutions and regulations to protect the democracy.

MATT GALLOWAY: Just before I let you go, what would it mean for you to be able to go back to Syria?

NOURA AL-JIZAWI: When?

MATT GALLOWAY: Any time. What would it what if.... ytou were able to go back to.... It was really..... When you were talking about leaving, iyou're still even very emotional and speaking about leaving the country. So if you're able to go home, what would that mean to you?

NOURA AL-JIZAWI: It's very unfortunate that going back home is not an option in the meantime, as long as the regime still in power, because the serious risk on my safety. One day, when we have a democratic transition, going back to Syria, absolutely, it would be tough and emotional, but also, it would be great. Tough and emotional because it would be the moment when I have the chance to realize how many people I lost during the revolution. Not only family members, but also my greatest grave is for the colleagues, we call them sisters and brothers. We used to protest together, and many of them passed away, whether under torture or in some other how, they were killed and murdered by the regime. Confronting the reality of the damage, and not only in the infrastructure, but absolutely, the damage of the people. Meeting the people who are traumatized and they were highly affected by the atrocity and by the war. I feel like I'm not ready to that moment, but absolutely, when it comes, I... I will work so hard to prepare myself. And finally, it would be exciting, it would be a kind of my duty because I believe that being in the exile, it's an opportunity to learn, not only reading books and studying, but also take hands-on experience and to learn from the experience of other countries and other nations who are able to protect their democracy. And definitely, building a country after almost a decade of war, it would be something I don't want to raise my expectations, but I don't think that it's something I can see the the outcomes of these rebuilding in my life. But as a small part of this cause, it would be a great pleasure for me to serve the people and to serve the country.

MATT GALLOWAY: You said when, not if. So, you're confident that you'll be... you'll be there?

NOURA AL-JIZAWI: Yeah, it's absolutely. The change absolutely might be interrupted, but believe me, if Assad or any other dictator around the world has the faith that this revolution is just something won't harm him, they will never put all of their resources and power to fight the people. So they know exactly from the bottom of their hearts that the regime will go, and the situation in the country would change, and we would have, absolutely, a democratic transition as much as they try to make it delayed. But absolutely, we would have it on one day. It's only a matter of time. But on the other hand, it's a matter of how much we can, as people who believe in the revolution and who believe in the democratic change and who believe in the rights of the Syrian people to live in a better country, how much we have to be patient and the energy and the power to keep moving forward, and to keep working so hard until we find that moment.

MATT GALLOWAY: I really appreciate speaking with you, it's a real pleasure. Thank you very much for for talking to me this morning.

NOURA AL-JIZAWI: Thanks so much,.

MATT GALLOWAY: NoUra al-Jizawi served as vice president of the National Coalition for Syrian Revolutionary and Opposition Forces. She is now a research assistant at the Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto. That's "The Current" for today. Coming up next on CBC Radio One, it's "Q". The music you're hearing is performed by a group of Syrian musicians now living in Europe. They describe themselves as an exile orchestra. We'll leave you with the music of the Syrian Expat Philharmonic Orchestra. This is "My Beautiful Homeland". I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to "The Current". Take care. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

[Music: "My Beautiful Homeland" By the Syrian Expat Philharmonic Orchestra/Instrumental]

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January 26, 2021 Episode Transcript

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