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The AIH Transcript for January 25, 2021

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Con jab. A Vancouver couple chartered a flight to a remote Yukon community and lied about why they were there in order to get the COVID-19 vaccine, but that did not inoculate them against being punished for their fraud.

CH: New marching orders. Joe Biden says it's time for the US to start enlisting transgender service members again as a Trump-era ban on their admission is given a dishonourable discharge.

CO: Breathing freely. A teenager in Nigeria facing 10 years in prison for insulting the Prophet Muhammad is released early thanks to a human rights lawyer who just happened to stumble on his case.

CH: For better or for worse. A political activist in Egypt remembers the Tahrir Square revolution of 10 years ago like it was yesterday, but says life there has only gotten more restrictive.

CO: Rock of this age. An Oklahoma videographer describes a pair of concerts put on by The Flaming Lips, where both performers and audience members were inside plastic bubbles.

CH: And jam packed. A Pearl Jam cover band called Pearl Jam reluctantly agrees to change its name after receiving a cease and desist letter from Pearl Jam because the cover band was just named Pearl Jamm with an extra M. As It Happens. The Monday Edition. Radio that's sure they apologise for the m-position.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: 10 years after the Arab Spring, this Egyptian political activist has no regrets

B.C. Yukon COVID couple

Guest: John Streicker

CH: A couple from British Columbia are accused of jumping the vaccine line and now they're paying the price. Today, Rod and Ekaterina Baker were named as the couple who lied their way from Vancouver to the remote Yukon community of Beaver Creek. They managed to get vaccinated there before trying to fly back to Vancouver. They've been charged with violating Yukon's Civil Emergency Measures Act and fined 1150 dollars each. John Streicker is Yukon's community services minister. We reached him in Carcross, Yukon.

CO: Mr. Streicker, the details of this saga are quite astounding. What did you think when you first heard?

JOHN STREICKER: When I first heard my jaw hit the floor. You know, we had been doing this work in the Yukon to keep our community safe. And we started with long-term care facilities and we got 90 percent of the folks vaccinated, everybody that wanted to get vaccinated, our frontline health care workers. And next on our list were elders and our communities. And so we created these two mobile units and we started with our two communities, which are sort of at the ends of the Alaska Highway. And one of those was Beaver Creek. And it's a small community, about 100 people, 100 plus. And it's it's Canada's westernmost community. And it's right near where the Alaska Highway heads into Alaska.

CO: And this is where this couple -- and they have been named now a businessman, Rod Baker, and his wife, Ekaterina Baker. And so they went there to get the vaccine. What are the details? Can you just run people through what they did in order to pull that off?

JS: Yeah. So they came to the Yukon on the 19th, and they came in just like people will. And they filled out a declaration form because we require people to self isolate when they're coming to the territory. And that's why we've been able to keep the case count co low here in the north and in the Yukon. So, you know, our anticipation was that they were doing that. Well, what they did was a couple days later they chartered a flight, or as I'm told, they chartered a flight, they flew to this small community of Beaver Creek, they went into the clinic and they presented themselves as working at the local motel. But then when they were leaving, they said, could they get a ride back to the airport? And the vaccine team was kind of shocked at that. And they said, no, we have to do this clinic. But then that tweaked them. And so they called up the motel -- the couple left, they got on their flight, their charter flight back to Whitehorse. And the vaccine team contacted the motel. When they got hold of them, they heard that no, they don't know of this couple. So then they contacted our enforcement officers in Whitehorse. They went to try and find them. The charter flight had already landed in Whitehorse. So then the enforcement folks figured that it might be the couple that was supposed to be isolating. They went to check for them at the hotel. They'd already left. They thought, well, let's go back to the airport. And here they were just boarding a flight to head out of the Yukon. And so they charged them there.

CO: Wow. And all the things that are wrong with this, right? So first of all, they arrived in Yukon, didn't isolate, then chartered a plane, went to the community -- White River First Nation community -- to get the vaccine, and this is in Beaver Creek. How many lies and infractions, major and minor, along the way do you think that they allegedly committed?

JS: Well, two -- this what our folks charged them with: not isolating and not living up to the declaration. But we immediately advised the RCMP to follow up. I'll let them do that. And, you know, the thing that really gets to us here is that they put our community at risk. And that's what's so maddening for all of us, including the White River First Nation and the folks at Beaver Creek. And so luckily, Dr. Hanley let us know that he feels that the risk was very low. But still, it was just an incredible act of selfishness and just so very upsetting to the community and to all of us here in the Yukon just to think that people would put themselves ahead of a community.

CO: So after all this happened, this Rod Baker, he has resigned. He just resigned as the CEO of Great Canadian Gaming, which is a major casino and racetrack business. Yukon News reports that in 2019 he made ten and a half million dollars just that year. And his wife, Ekaterina Baker is a Canadian actress. When you hear those details, what do you think?

JS: My focus just absolutely has to remain about how to keep our community safe. So I think I would be upset regardless of who it is. And really I'm trying not to focus on these folks and who they are in their background. It just wasn't right.

CO: But I guess why it matters to know who they are is that it appears that if you're a rich Southerner who can just go to those kinds of lengths to get the vaccine, and to just not que-jump, but to risk infecting others or violate those infection protocols -- that there are extra layers of concern, are there not, that people can actually buy their way into the vaccine?

JS: Well, what I can say is that they did get caught, and I'm glad for that. And I immediately thought, well, how do they think they were going to get the second dose of the Moderna vaccine? So the whole point about who it is, I'm sure, is of interest to Canadians, and that's fine. What I'll say, Carol, is thanks to all of Canada, because Canada agreed that the North, because of our small communities and the risks that exists, agreed that we could have enough vaccines to vaccinate our folks in our communities. And so we're lucky here, ensuring that this goes well for us and the territory.

CO: The fine, though, the punishment for what they did seems to be a matter of some thousands of dollars for the both of them. Considering that there's an income that appears to be ten million dollars from 2019, isn't that kind of a slap on the wrist?

JS: Yeah, well, the fine is, what is the maximum under our act? And as soon as this pandemic hit and we started working with our act here, we saw that there was a real problem with those types of fines and we are working to adjust that. You know, it also is potentially jail time. So that obviously is more significant. But I'll leave it to others to follow up on that.

CO: Mr. Streicker, I appreciate you telling us the story. Thank you.

JS: You're very welcome Carol.

CH: John Streicker is Yukon's Community Services Minister. We reached him in Carcross. The CBC has reached out to Rod and Ekaterina Baker for comment, but we have not heard back.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Egypt 10 years

Guest: Shady El-Ghazaly Harb

CH: Ten years ago today, Egyptians believed change was in the air. For weeks, they'd watched protesters in Tunisia take to the streets, successfully driving their leader out of office. They wanted to replicate that momentum in Cairo and spark a revolution. Here's Carol speaking with protester Gameela Ismail on January 25th, 2011.

GAMEELA ISMAIL: We're talking about tens of thousands of young men and women, and most of them are sitting in the Square. And we are surrounded with trucks and with a huge security forces. The thing which they are using to disperse the protesters is the teargas. This is the first time we are ever able to protest in such huge numbers for these demands. And across the country, there are also several protests and demonstrations that seem to be more successful even than in Tahrir here.

CO: I know we might lose this phone line at any time. The authorities seem to be shutting down the mobile network.

GAMEELA ISMAIL: Yes. Yes, exactly -- and Twitter and Facebook and everything. I mean, they have this deal it seems with them, with the mobile companies, which actually we plan to sue. I mean, I'm going to take them to court.

CO: And what is the change that you're hoping to bring? What are people asking for in the street today?

GAMEELA ISMAIL: The demands range from 'We do not want Mubarak anymore, we want his regime anymore.' And then it goes down and down to our social demands and economic demands. This is what people have in their minds, then comes the political reform.

CH: That was Gameela Ismail, a protester in Tahrir Square, speaking with Carol 10 years ago today. With the ouster of longtime President Hosni Mubarak in February 2011, Egyptians saw the first step to greater change. But today, many of the protesters who were in Tahrir Square remain behind bars. And President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi has shown zero tolerance for dissent. Shady el-Ghazaly Harb was one of the protesters in Tahrir Square today. He's a surgeon in Cairo. That's where we reached him.

CO: Shady, what emotions does that clip of Gameela Ismail, what do they bring back for you about those unforgettable days in Tahrir Square 10 years ago?

SHADY EL-GHAZALY HARB: Well, they take me back to the preparation that we were doing on that day and how we managed to escape security forces. It was a very hectic but extremely pleasing day. We didn't expect that much turnout. It's an unforgettable day for all of our generation.

CO: And she's talking about tens of thousands had turned into the square and we could see the pictures on TV. It was just so exciting. And everyone we spoke with at that time was just feeling this energy that Square represented that -- Tahrir Square. You drove past Tahrir Square just last week. How different is it now?

SHADY EL-GHAZALY HARB: Now it's totally different. It's kind of cold, militaristic place now with a harsh essence all around. And you feel that it still poses a big threat.

CO: When you hear Gameela's voice -- that was the sound of so many of the people we spoke with during those weeks in Tahrir Square that day. There was a fearlessness to them, a sense that they weren't going to be defeated, that they would be successful, that none of what has come to pass, including the regime of el-Sisi, was going to happen. Yet now you have, what, 60,000 political prisoners in Egypt, so many of them activists, journalists, opposition politicians. Do you think that some of the protesters in the square regret that they were involved 10 years ago?

SHADY EL-GHAZALY HARB: I myself was one of the detainees and I was just released 10 months ago. I was released a months ago after almost two years detention. The last two anniversaries of the revolution, I was in solitary confinement and prison. I myself, and each and every person, never regretted the revolution. Or even after the revolution, I never had any sort of regret. I don't think that my friends who are still in prison right now, I don't think that they have any regrets either. Maybe some people are kind of sorry -- they feel the sad, nostalgic feeling of, 'well, we had a lot of dreams, but none of them accomplished.' Maybe some are depressed kind of, but not regret.

CO: This triumph of Tahrir Square was when we witnessed President Hosni Mubarak step down. And yet the crime you committed was the dubious crime of insulting President el-Sisi, the person who was elected after the defeat of Hosni Mubarak. And so I wonder, how much did life actually improve for what you put into that revolution?

SHADY EL-GHAZALY HARB: First of all, my crime was much worse. They were accusing me of being a part of a terrorist group. And I asked them what's the name of that person, what kind of terrorist group? And they had no answer. Now, this atmosphere we have never dreamt of, it's much worse than Mubarak's era -- much much worse than any other era, even the generations before us. We don't have anything to do but to sit and wait. We're betting on the internal collapse of this corruption somewhere or the other.

CO: But you have another generation coming up, right, of Egyptians who were children when you were in the streets and you were in Tahrir Square in 2011 who are now engaged. Do you think that their willingness to sit by and be patient?

SHADY EL-GHAZALY HARB: No, as a matter of what I can see now this generation is much more aggressive than our. They grew up seeing a revolution which has been crushed. And they have the same dreams that we had in 2011. Yeah, they can put us in jail, but they can't put our dreams in jail. And they can see the mistakes that we did. They kind of blame us a little bit as well.

CO: What do they blame you for?

SHADY EL-GHAZALY HARB: Well, they blame us to be kind of naive. That's what I hear from someone like, for example, my son, who was six at the time of the revolution -- but now he's 16 -- that we trust the Muslim Brotherhood at the time and the military at another time because they see that this is kind of too naive to trust these people. And we shouldn't have done that.

CO: Is he right?

SHADY EL-GHAZALY HARB: [Chuckles] Well partly right and partly not, because maybe now the public opinion is more accepting to the fact that we should not trust these two major bodies, these two tycoons who took over the revolution, the Islamists, one side or the military institution on the other side. Now, there is a realisation, but 10 years ago that wasn't the case. The military was held in a very high regard. To tell the people, no, we should not trust them -- that wasn't going to be accepted.

CO: Your son -- do you worry about him? Do you worry that he and his friends are willing and capable of going much further than you?

SHADY EL-GHAZALY HARB: Well, yeah, I'm worried about his generation. If things go out of hand, yeah, they might go much further than we did.

CO: But they have nothing to lose, do they?

SHADY EL-GHAZALY HARB: Well, I wouldn't limit the conversation with my son because we're in a civic class that might affect him -- I mean, he has something to lose. But other millions who are his age have absolutely nothing to lose. And the economic status is not very encouraging. And they are stubborn, as most of the youth are. I can't see it leading to anywhere good now because, I mean, they have a bad experience in their very recent memory and they don't want to repeat it.

CO: What do you hope that Egypt will look like and be like ten years from now?

SHADY EL-GHAZALY HARB: I hope that we would have started a true democratic transition in a secular state which respects each and every person. And then maybe we will see a political atmosphere that gives us some young political leaders who can lead Egypt to the future. So I hope that we'll see even traces of this dream after 10 years from now.

CO: Shady, I'm very happy to hear your voice and to hear you still have dreams and that you don't feel defeated by these past years, especially the years in solitary confinement -- I know that was hard, but thank you for speaking with us.

SHADY EL-GHAZALY HARB: Thank you very much. Although we're politically defeated, the revolution has triumphed between the people and the hearts of the people, and it will still flourish more and more in the coming few years.

CO: Shady, thank you.

SHADY EL-GHAZALY HARB: Thank you very much.

CH: Shady el-Ghazaly Harb participated in the Tahrir Square protests 10 years ago. We reached him in Cairo. And to hear that interview again, go to our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Flaming Lips concert

Guest: Nathan Poppe

CH: One of the many, many, many things that the COVID-19 pandemic has ruined is concerts. Standing shoulder to shoulder with strangers in a packed venue, singing at the top of your lungs, respiratory droplets everywhere -- it was a best -- except for the time being, it's probably the worst. But this past Friday and Saturday, some music fans in Oklahoma got the chance to attend a live concert. The Flaming Lips performed in what they're calling space bubbles. And the audience members were all in space bubbles as well. There were hundreds of those bubbles at the venue with up to three people in each one. Nathan Poppe worked as a videographer at both shows. We reached him in Oklahoma City.

CO: Nathan, what was it like to actually go to hear a band live again this weekend?

NATHAN POPPE: It was just a wonderful and weird experience to see The Flaming Lips on stage again because, you know, COVID-19 is very real. And the restrictions, you know, have made it tough to see a show. It's just, you know, not safe. But the Lips have kind of invented this interesting workaround where the whole crowd was wrapped in these wild plastic bubble.

CO: [Chuckles] All right. Now, you documented the whole thing on Twitter, and it's just really quite extraordinary pictures. So just describe what it was like when you first arrived at the venue in Oklahoma City -- before people actually started to arrive, what did it look like?

NP: Yes. So when I walked into the venue, none of the balloons were inflated. They were just laying flat and it just looked like somebody had popped 100 giant balloons and they were just sitting there, right. And it was very, very quiet. And before long, they started letting people into the venue row by row, and up to three people could sit in one of these bubbles and they would use leaf blowers to blow it up. And that's how they got the show going. As soon as the last bubble was filled, they jumped right into the concert and started playing Race For The Prize.

CO: Okay. You maybe have to give a few more details. People got into these giant bubbles. I think someone explained that they almost look like giant condoms.

NP: [Laughs] Yes, I will say this for lack of a better description. When I walked into the venue, it looked like there were 100 condoms laying on the ground. And so these balloons start out completely flat. And to crawl inside of it and get the process going, it's almost like a reverse birth. And so you crawl into this hole in the bubble and once you're inside, you stick a leaf blower through this kind of almost like the zipper on your pants and it starts filling with a leaf blower, so the air gets in there. And then as soon as it's full, you zip the last bit and you're ready to watch the show.

CO: And so everybody who's gone to the concert is in their own giant inflated condom?

NP: Pretty much, I think you nailed it. We jokingly called it the "Prophylactic Spree." [Laughs] It's unlike anything I've really ever seen before.

CO: Wow. And so what happens inside the bubble? It's completely transparent, so you can see them. And then they take their masks off once they're inside?

NP: Yeah. So it was really cool. Everybody did a great job about keeping their masks on. It seemed like they were being very mindful of that. So once you got inside the bubble, there was a water bottle because, you know, obviously if you're inside of a space bubble, hydration is key. There was a towel because after a while, it does get hot inside the bubble and there's some condensation that kind of makes it hard to see so the towel kind of helps wipe that away. And then there was also an FM transmitter so you could hear the concert better if you are having trouble just hearing it through the plastic bubble.

CO: But now, if you're in the bubble with other people, doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of being in a bubble?

NP: I think these were mostly like couples and family members that had already been spending time together. It was kind of up to them how they wanted to experience the show. And oh, I forgot, there's one other thing -- there is a sign inside each bubble, on one side it said "It's hot in here," and if you held that up, somebody would come by with a leaf blower and give you some fresh air. And on the other side it said, "I've got to go pee" and an attendant would come over, let you out of the bubble, you could use the restroom and then re-enter it when you're done.

CO: Wow. And so describe what it was like to be at a Flaming Lips concert like this.

NP: Yeah. To me, it just sparked joy. It did what a truly great concert can always do -- just kind of a celebration of life. Obviously, it's a very difficult time and you can't really do a concert safely, like you normally would, and this is probably the closest thing you could truly get to the proper Flaming Lips experience.

CO: Were the band members, were they also in bubbles?

NP: Each band member was also in their own respective bubble on stage.

CO: But this is not the first time this band has used bubbles, right?

NP: So Wayne Coyne, the front man for the band, kind of came up with this idea several years ago at a music festival called Coachella. And he used it to crowd surf over everybody. So it's kind of been in their bag of tricks for live shows for several years. But this was the first time everybody kind of got to share in that sort of bubble experience.

CO: So maybe The Flaming Lips were ahead of their time when it comes to having COVID concerts. [Chuckles]

NP: Exactly. It's almost like they were waiting for this moment [chuckles] for years and years.

CO: Now you work as an entertainment reporter or you did -- and so you have been to hundreds of concerts every year, actually. And so what will it mean for you when you can finally return to normal concert?

NP: Oh, I've been thinking about that day for months and months. To be able to go out and see people and hug people -- honestly, I can't wait for that day to be here. Obviously, we're going to have to be patient, and that's several months away. But I'll be thinking about it every night until it happens.

CO: Nathan I think a lot of people will join you in that idea. [Laughter] And it's lovely to talk to you. Thank you.

NP: I appreciate your questions. And I hope you have a great day.

CH: That was Oklahoma videographer Nathan Poppe in Oklahoma City.

[Music: Synth Music]

Part 2: Trans military ban repealed

Trans military ban repealed

Guest: Shawn Skelly

CH: Military recruitment is generally something US presidents try not to get in the way of. But in 2018, Donald Trump signed an executive order that did just that, banning most transgender people from enlisting. Today, the country's new president, Joe Biden, changed that -- overturning the Trump-era ban and upholding a key election promise. For Shawn Skelly, the news was a long time coming. Ms. Skelly is a trans woman and a 20 year veteran of the US Navy, she served in the Obama administration and was part of the Biden-Harris transition team. We reached her just outside Washington, D.C..

CO: Shawn, in his remarks today, we heard Joe Biden say he's, "enabling all qualified Americans to serve their country in uniform." How does that make you feel?

SHAWN SKELLY: It makes me feel good, Carol. because I believe that's truly the essence of what's at hand now. It's not about who should serve -- it's about who can serve and who wants to serve their country.

CO: Can you tell us a bit about the ban and what was your reaction when you heard what Mr. Trump had done in banning transgender people from being in the military?

SS: With myself being a retired officer who left the service earlier than I originally planned to due to the fact that I'm a transgender woman, I was insulted personally. And I was also dismayed in general for those service members who were successfully serving at that time. And frankly, the smears that were contained in President Trump's tweets announcing that there would be a ban based on no evidence whatsoever, it was personally enraging.

CO: And as you point out, it was announced initially through a series of tweets -- that's how people found out.

SS: Which actually made it even more impersonal and offensive for something as serious and in some respects, secret as military service to claim a whole class of people already successfully serving to be unworthy in such a manner was a double insult.

CO: And was there any issue, was there any evidence to point to the people who are already serving, who are transgender -- were there problems in that regard?

SS: No, there weren't. With the original policy established by the Obama administration allowing transgender individuals to transition while serving in uniform and to continue to serve, there was immediately no evidence that that would be any problem for people to successfully serve in all forms of specialities. And the service chiefs themselves would later, soon testify that they detected no problems with those people serving.

CO: And yet -- and I'll read the tweets that President Trump put out at the time, he said, "After consultation with my generals and military experts, please be advised that the US government will not accept or allow transgender individuals to serve in any capacity in the US military. Our military must be focussed on decisive and overwhelming victory and cannot be burdened with the tremendous medical costs and disruption that transgender in the military would entail."

SS: That was fallacious. It was stated in the Rand Corporation study, which supported the original establishment of the open service policy, that the military medical costs would be inconsequential. It was a rounding error.

CO: Can you tell us a bit about your own experience of serving in the US Navy as a transwoman?

SS: I served between 1988 and 2008. It wasn't well into my career in 2006 when I came to understand completely and clearly my own identity as a transgender woman. I had served as a naval flight officer, flying jets off of aircraft carriers. But it was in this time when finally I came to understand myself that in the very next instant I understood that being my full and complete self would not be compatible with military service at that time -- we were still in the age of 'don't ask, don't tell' be a policy in effect, where you could not be outwardly known as a gay or lesbian person. And there were policies on the books that said if you had anything deemed to be a gender identity concern, that was also disqualifying for military service. So that meant at that time that if I wanted to be my best and authentic self, which I know myself to be now, since I was able to transition, that I was going to have to leave the Navy as soon as I could and as safely as I could in order to protect my future employability, which would be damaged if I were to be dishonourably discharged or forced out. So I was concerned. I had a young child at that time. I was really concerned about my family's future as much as anything else, so I left the service years before I planned to.

CO: How different might have your experience have been had it happened now in the wake of this new repeal?

SS: It's something I don't tend to dwell on. But I would not have been afraid as I was in that time, which I'm sure and I've been told by folks who are serving that they have felt because they've been deemed other and less than and unworthy even though they were allowed to serve because they've been grandfathered in during the Trump administration -- it was incredibly difficult time because they were labelled as something they were not, which was unfit. That would have made all the difference for me to be able to stick it out, to be supported. It was disappointing to leave when I did.

CO: Just finally, one of the motivators for making this change, or I guess one of the ramifications is that recruitment into the US military has been very low and by opening this up and saying anybody who wants to serve, willing to serve, and is able to serve can do so. Do you think it will help with recruitment and recruiting the right people into the US military?

SS: In President Biden's own statement, he talked about all qualified Americans having the ability to serve that that's being restored with this action. The new Secretary of Defence, Secretary Austin, has subsequently released his own statement making that very point as well, that this is about this restoration of open transgender service. I think it is important not only for transgender Americans and those who are serving presently and those who want to serve, but it's about making it clear that every American who wants to serve and is qualified, who can qualify will be welcomed. Secretary Austin's own statement is that those that serve America need to look like America for America to be best served -- paraphrasing that. I think that's what the really important signal is for us to be properly represented by those people who we ask so much of and we give a lot to as well.

CO: Shawn it's good to talk to you. Thank you.

SS: It's been my pleasure.

CH: Shawn Skelly is a retired US Navy commander and co-founder of the non-profit Out in National Security. We reached her outside Washington, D.C..

[Music: Guitar Music]

Garnet Angeconeb

CH: Lynn Beyak is leaving the senate. Today, as you may have heard on the news, she said she's retiring not because of long standing demands that she stepped down over her defence of the residential school system, but because she'd served the eight years she said she'd promised to serve. In announcing her departure, she was characteristically unrepentant. In a statement, she said, "Some have criticised me for stating that the good as well as the bad of residential schools should be recognised. I stand by that statement." Garnet Angeconeb is a residential school survivor. He lives in Sioux Lookout, Ontario. And he spoke to CBC Thunder Bay about Senator Beyak's departure.

GARNET ANGECONEB: I guess in some ways it's bittersweet in the sense that, yes, she's gone -- but, you know, the whole issue of racism, systemic racism, is still here, you know. And so in some ways, the work only is beginning for us to address the things, the stains that she will leave behind. And so I am delighted in many ways that she has stepped aside. But at the same time, as I say that she has said that she leaves with the same views and the same sentiments she announced back then about the good of residential schools. You know, unless someone has been through the lived experiences of the residential school system, she can't say that -- she can't begin to understand the horrors of what we went through as survivors. And so as she leaves, as she takes parting shots, I'm not surprised by that. And today I can honestly say that I now realise why I never accepted any of the apologies that she made. She did, I think, issue three separate apologies on her actions at the time. Those were said they ran in the hollow and they ran shallow. And today is a verification of that. And so onward we move with a lot of healing work to do.

CH: That was residential school survivor Garnet Angeconeb now speaking to CBC Thunder Bay reporter Logan Turner earlier today.

[Music: Rock Music]

Nigerian boy released

Guest: Kola Alapinni

CH: Today, Omar Farouq can be a teenager again. Last year, the 17 year old was sentenced to 10 years in a Nigerian prison for insulting the Prophet Muhammad. But last week, after 11 months, he was released. Omar Farouq originally had no legal representation. Then human rights lawyer Kola Alapinni took up his case. We reached him in Kano, in northern Nigeria.

CO: Kola, first of all, how did Omar react when he heard he was being set free?

KOLA ALAPINNI: He didn't believe it. He is right here with me -- I've got an interpreter because his English is not very smooth. And his uncle is here. He didn't believe it. Having debriefed him myself, asking him a few questions. So that was one of the questions I asked: how do you feel when you heard you had been set free, set about 10:00 on Friday? 10 o'clock Friday morning. So I said, how did you feel? He said, I didn't believe it.

CO: Then he walked free. Did he realised he was it was true once he was actually out of prison?

KP: When they brought him -- we never met, I've never seen him before, but I've seen his picture. I could tell from his eyes. I was wearing my mask and everything. I could tell. But he didn't know. So they took him in another office and they were there debriefing him and finally brought him to us. And he refused to follow us.

CO: Sorry -- he refused to follow you?

KP: How ironic. How paradoxical can that get? He was afraid for his life because he thought he was going to be killed. So that's why I assured him -- I showed him the court order and I told him his sister was waiting outside the prison walls and his uncle had stood by them all through the trial. He was the only person we have that came forward.

CO: But eventually, he trusted you and he came out.

KP: Yes.

CO: And how did you feel at that moment? Because you never met him before. You have struggled to get this this teenager released. What were your feelings?

KP: Oh, wow. I was just wow. In my mind, it was so unbelievable. Unbelievable. That was what I was just muttering to myself. It was so surreal.

CO: I want to ask you a bit about how political this case was for this young fellow. But just tell us a bit about how it all began, because it stems, I guess, from an argument that he had with a friend. Is that correct?

KP: The details of this, I'm not very sure. I think someone reported him that he said something because just before your call came in, I was asking his uncle, "Do you know where all this trouble came from?" And he said, yes, he knows -- it is one of their neighbours or friends where his uncle works, because he stays with his uncle, that must have reported it. That's what I know for now.

CO: Right. And apparently what he's accused of doing is saying something that was insulting to the Prophet Muhammad. Is that right?

KP: It would be something along those lines, yes.

CO: And for that, a teenager would spend ten years in prison?

KP: If he was more than 18 years old, he would have been sentenced to death under Sharia law.

CO: And just tell us how, because it was very difficult for you to get him released, how political -- how hot -- is this case in Nigeria?

KP: It was hot. He never had legal representation. He has never seen his lawyers. He was kept away from everyone, from family -- nobody had access to him. Of course, it was political, the judges said so during during the delivery of judgement on the first day that the Sharia law is here to stay and it is constitutional. Because if it was not there, there will be a total breakdown of law and order in the north.

CO: What was the principle argument that actually convinced the court to release Omar?

KP: Well, the first one was that there was no legal representation. The second one was that he is a minor, even though there was a discrepancy about his age. The first I asked him when he came out was, how old are you? He says, I am 17. And I said, so that means when you were arrested, you would have been 16. He said yes, I was 16. So how come the court judgement since you're 17? The Islamic police recorded 17. And I said, well, we also heard that you were 13 and that was the basis by which we filed our appeal.

CO: And you never got to see any of the evidence that they used in order to convict Omar, is that right?

KP: No, we never would see any.

CO: What then does Omar say about the allegations now that you can actually speak to him for the first time?

KP: Well, I'm being careful debriefing him. I shut them into the safe house and went to my place and then came back. I just got here literally 30 minutes before you call came -- just asking subtle questions through an interpreter anyway, because there's a language barrier as well. I'm just asking, how does he feel? Was he treated well? And he said, yes, they treated him well because he was young. And even today when he was leaving, they were so happy, the other prisoners donated their clothes to him.

CO: But at the same time, you said that his sister and his uncle is with you now, with him -- at the same time his father turned against him, didn't he?

KP: Yes, the father has dissociated himself with him. He said he didn't want to have anything to do with it, he brought shame to the family, and wanted attention.

CO: And what does his uncle say about all of this?

KP: Well we had a strategy meeting with them yesterday evening, and the uncle literally raised them up and saw him through school, partially. He said he is just a young lad, and anywhere he goes, I'm going because you have to realise that they are not safe anymore. So we are arranging a safe passage for them to get them out of here. And then we'll decide what next if we can get asylum for the family. And they would never be able to live in the north again.

CO: So how dangerous are things for Omar right now?

KP: Very very dangerous. And they're going to leave incognito tomorrow and then we'll decide on a more sustainable plan of action. Ideally, it would be to evacuate the country -- out of Nigeria. That would be the ideal thing, because he can never go near a mosque again. His identity must not be disclosed. He cannot go to school. And now that he's been released, the family that stood by him, his uncle and his sister and their children, their lives are at risk because he will be an affront to the extremists -- to see all of them, you know, living like a jolly good family.

CO: Kola, I'm glad that you are there with Omar. Sounds like he's going to have a very hard time with this and trying to stay safe. Thank you so much for telling us the story.

CH: Kola Alapinni is a human rights lawyer based in Abuja, Nigeria. We reached him in the city of Kano.

[Music: Calm Music]

Cover Band

CH: [MUSIC PLAYS: "Working For The Weekend" by Loverboy] Obviously, that is the classic "Working for the Weekend" by Loverboy. Less obviously that's not actually Loverboy, but the Loverboy cover band "Cover Boy" -- that is a great cover band name because speaking of obviousness, you'd never think Cover Boy was Loverboy, but you'd instantly know that Cover Boy covers Loverboy. That's kind of the formula for naming a cover band. That's why Neervana is a great name or Oasish or any one of the many Tragically Hip cover bands, including The Practically Hip, The Strictly Hip and The Artificially Hip. It's a tricky balance to strike. You have to be creative and maybe funny and make it clear what band you cover while for legal reasons, making it clear you're not actually that original band, which is where Pearl Jamm ran into trouble. I don't mean this Pearl Jam. [MUSIC PLAYS: "Alive" by Pear Jam] No, I mean, this Pearl Jamm [MUSIC PLAYS: "Alive" being covered by Pearl Jamm]. The first clip was the real Pearl Jam, and the second clip was a cover band that plays only Pearl Jam - that band was called Pearl Jamm, as in (spells it out) Pearl Jamm. And last week, Pearl Jamm, with two m's, shared their disappointment that Pearl Jam with one-m or its management had sent a cease and desist letter requesting the cover band change its name. Two-m Pearl Jamm expressed petulant bafflement that their strenuous efforts at differentiating themselves from Pearl Jam by putting an extra M on the end didn't cut it. But it all turned out for the best. Their new name is Legal Jam with one M and they'll keep playing Pearl Jam covers only slightly m-bittered.

[Music: Funk Music]

Part 3: Germany male chicks culled

Germany male chicks culled

Guest: Maria Geusser

[THIS INTERVIEW CONTAINS THE FOLLOWING CORRECTION: In our interview about Germany ending the practice of culling male chicks, Maria Guesser of the NGO Compassion in World Farming said unwanted chicks are usually shredded alive. She has since rescinded that statement, saying that most chicks in Germany are, in fact, gassed. The country's poultry industry says shredding is not a common practice, but does not provide hard numbers.]

CH: It's the dark side of your morning omelette. Around the world, hundreds of millions of male chicks are killed each year because they can't produce eggs and aren't considered economical for meat. But now Germany is set to ban the practise of culling chicks. Officials there say new technology that should allow the sex of chicks to be determined before they hatch. Maria Geusser is the Germany country rep for the NGO Compassion in World Farming. We reached her in Berlin. And a warning: the details in this story may be disturbing.

CO: Maria, first of all, I know this is brutal, but can you describe the way that these millions of male chicks are culled after they're born?

MARIA GEUSSER: So what happens is after the eggs are hatched, the male chicks they're separated from the females, and then they go on production lines or assembly lines and then they are literally just put in a shredder or they are gassed.

CO: So they're shredded alive, these chicks?

MG: Yes, they're alive and they are aware.

CO: Or they're gassed -- that's the other way that they're killed.

MG: Yes, exactly. But I think, for example, in Germany, the shredding is what most of them do. So gassing is very unusual.

CO: Why has this become common practise not just in Germany but for farmers around the world?

MG: And so the problem is that these chicks that come from the very highly selective breeding egg-laying hens, they are not economical in producing meat because they grow very slowly. And so they can't keep up with the chickens that are selected to produce meat. And so for the producers, it's just not economical to keep them and raise them.

CO: And the male chicks, they can't be used for any kind of meat, they don't have any marketing properties at all -- I guess if you want to use that phrase?

MG: Of course they do. So you can raise them and you can produce meat from them. I think it's really just an economic calculation. So there are initiatives, especially in the organic sector, where the male, they call them brothers, are raised for meat. And this would actually be also a viable option. But because the industry doesn't have to do it, it's still more economically sound to just kill them.

CO: So what now with this new law -- what does the industry have to do?

MG: So they cannot kill chicks anymore for purely economic reasons, starting by 2022. And then from the year 2024 onwards, they will also not be allowed to destroy the egg, to destroy the embryo before the seventh day after being laid. And so what they will do is that they will determine the gender inside the egg then and then use those eggs as protein.

CO: How are the farmers responding to this law?

MG: Well, basically, of course, they say they don't like culling chicks alive, but mainly they're complaining because they're saying now they're at a competitive disadvantage to the rest of Europe.

CO: Is this the beginning of larger regulations like this?

MG: Well, I certainly hope so. But to be frank, this is one of the pieces of legislation that actually makes us wonder, again, how serious animal welfare is taken, because the methods that I just mentioned, for example, focus on breeding on more robust and healthy animals, they are not supported as strongly as those that actually keep the industry going at such a pace and they're not addressed. So, I mean, the animal welfare movement is growing strong and I think it won't go on like this forever. People are much more aware of how animals suffer in industrial farming. So, yes, I am sure more regulation will follow. But that's, of course, my subjective evaluation.

CO: This is a kind of first step in the treatment of the poultry industry. What else do you think needs to be done in order to be less cruel to the animals in this industry?

MG: So speaking for Europe, one of the big milestones would be to finally get rid of cages for laying hens. Actually cages should have been prohibited a long time ago, but what came in afterwards, the unwaged cage is nowhere close to giving the animals an appropriate life. So getting rid of cages would be actually the first step to allowing them some space to breathe, to live. This is mainly in the laying hen industry. And for me,at chickens, there's actually also a lot of what I talked about before that they're often growing too fast to even walk and their organs are failing. So I think these are two points that would definitely need to be the next first steps.

CO: Do you think that'll happen?

MG: I choose to be optimistic. Like I said, consumer awareness is growing and I'm sure we can keep going on like that. And it's not just for animal welfare reasons. I mean, it's also health reasons. Avian influenza is spreading again. It's because of the environment -- those industrial operations also emit a lot of greenhouse gases. And we have lots of nitrate and phosphate problems everywhere in Europe. And so there are a lot of reasons to end industrial animal farming or to change it in a way that can be more sustainable.

CO: We will leave it there. Maria thank you.

MG: Thank you so much.

CH: Maria Guesser is the Germany country representative for the NGO Compassion in World Farming. We reached her in Berlin.

[THIS INTERVIEW CONTAINS THE FOLLOWING CORRECTION: In our interview about Germany ending the practice of culling male chicks, Maria Guesser of the NGO Compassion in World Farming said unwanted chicks are usually shredded alive. She has since rescinded that statement, saying that most chicks in Germany are, in fact, gassed. The country's poultry industry says shredding is not a common practice, but does not provide hard numbers.]

[Music: Calm Music]

Zamboni

CH: First, there was the poop Zamboni, a device we told you about last March, as you will no doubt remember, a man in Sooke, B.C., ordered a machine from New Zealand and used it to cleanse the local sports fields of Canada goose poop. Since then, there has been a boom in DIY Zambonis, well a boom of two but they're both pretty great. A New Brunswick five year old has taken to driving a pint sized toy John Deere, modified by his dad as a functional ice resurfacing machine for their backyard rink. That got the attention of the NHL, which shared a video of the invention in action. And now another contender for the big leagues has emerged, the washing machine Zamboni. I should note that in the case of the poop Zamboni, the Zamboni brand did raise a bit of a stink about the unauthorised reference to their registered trademark. We can only hope this time around there's a little less resurface tension. Here's Ron Theriault, then his son, Anthony Theriault, telling CBC Manitoba about the contraption.

RON THERIAULT: I work in the appliance business. I have a small repair shop, so I took an old washer, gutted it, put the plumbing underneath and some skis on it and it was easy to transport and smooth out the ice.

ANTHONY THERIAULY: We got the nice Jets logo centre frame here, as you can see. That's really what you need to see. Then you got the Zamboni logo there to make sure you know what it does. I mean, it's actually an ice re-surface --not a Zamboni, but that's the name we want to put on it just so it looks nice. You can open up the top, put your water in. You don't have to place access to everything. You have a back panel on there, but it doesn't cover everything up. So if you need repair something, change something, it's easy to do. Then you have this nice snowplough that you can come down. So if you have a bunch of snow on the ice, it's a lot easier. You just have to do a simple pass to the shovel and then that will get the rest. On the side of the wash there, as you see, we have instructions on how to clean clothes. Those are very important instructions. And that's really all the bells and whistles. But it works well.

RON THERIAULT: I just think it's a good alternative to actually having to get pails of the water because if you had to haul that amount of water down, you'd be tired.

ANTHONY THERIAULY: Like yesterday we were doing it for the first time, and there's people going by "This is like the coolest thing ever!" They thought it was a fridge. "Is it a fridge? Is it a dryer? It's a washer!" [Laughs]

CH: Winnipeg washing machine wizard Ron Theriault and his son, Anthony Theriault, they were speaking with the CBC's Walther Bernal.

[Music: Banjo Music]

Mozambique floods

Guest: Jose Wanda Zambuco

CH: People living in the coastal Mozambique city of Beira are trying to recover what they can. Cyclone Elosie slammed into the coast of Mozambique late Friday night and left homes submerged in floodwater. Now 8000 people are homeless and without food or electricity. Jose Wanda Zambuco is a resident of Beira. We reached him at a school where he's currently taking shelter with his wife and two young daughters.

CO: Jose, how are you? How is your family doing?

JOSE WANDA ZAMBUCO: My family right now are [inaudible]. Right now we are living at the school. My house has a lot of water. Lot of water.

CO: It's full of water.

JOSE WANDA ZAMBUCO: Yes, a lot of water because of the cyclone.

CO: Right, because of the cyclone. Do you have food for your family? Do you have clothes for them?

JOSE WANDA ZAMBUCO: We have no food. We have no food and clothes.

CO: So your house is under water. You have no food, no clothes for your family.

JOSE WANDA ZAMBUCO: Yes, I had a small food, but with water, with the cyclone, I lost it in my house.

CO: So you're staying, you're at the school and so are you there with lots of other people? Are there are a lot of people staying at the school now?

JOSE WANDA ZAMBUCO: Yes, yes, yes.

CO: And what are the conditions -- can you describe the conditions?

JOSE WANDA ZAMBUCO: The conditions are very bad. The conditions are very very bad. We have no help to support these days for eating. Today in the morning I was at another site, switching to something for eating -- some people, gave me small food to cook for, how can I say, for dinner.

CO: Some food to cook.

JOSE WANDA ZAMBUCO: Yes.

CO: Are there any NGOs, any aid groups, aid agencies that have come to help you?

JOSE WANDA ZAMBUCO: No, no, no, no. We have not heard back from them now.

CO: Can you describe what it was like when Cyclone Eloise hit, what was the storm like? Can you describe it for us?

JOSE WANDA ZAMBUCO: The water -- I don't know -- quantities of water. It was forceful rain. The house was full of water. We are not feeling good because right now we don't know what we can do tomorrow. Tomorrow morning, we will see in our house if the water has gone down or not.

CO: Tomorrow you'll go and check to see if the water has gone out of your house.

JOSE WANDA ZAMBUCO: Yes, yes, yes. When the cyclone started, my house was destroyed -- the roof...

CO: The roof...

JOSE WANDA ZAMBUCO: The roof of my house was destroyed.

CO: Jose, is your government helping you? Do you have help from the government?

JOSE WANDA ZAMBUCO: Until now, no. Until now, we haven't (received) help until now.

CO: So you have no food, no clothing, and your house is still underwater.

JOSE WANDA ZAMBUCO: Yes.

CO: Jose, I hope that you get some help soon. And I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

JOSE WANDA ZAMBUCO: Okay.

CO: Good night. OK,.

JOSE WANDA ZAMBUCO: Good night.

CH: Jose Wanda Zambuco lives in the coastal city of Beira in Mozambique. We reached him at a school where he and his family are taking shelter after Cyclone Eloise hit last Friday.

[Music: Synth Music]

Jonathan Larson

CH: 25 years ago today, Jonathan Larson set a new standard for musical theatre. On January 25th, 1996, Mr. Larson's rock musical Rent premiered at an off Broadway theatre. It was a modern twist on Puccini's La Boheme set in New York City at the height of the HIV/AIDS epidemic. Rent became an enormous success. It won a Pulitzer prize for drama and a Tony Award. But Mr. Larson wasn't there to celebrate any of that. The night before the premiere, the composer and playwright died of an aortic aneurysm. In 1997, when the musical premiered in Toronto. Mr. Larson's father, Al Larson, spoke with the CBC about his late son.

AL LARSON: At that point, he had been working as a waiter over 12 years and then only stopped two months before he died.

AVRIL BENOIT: Because he finally got this production, he had this production and the production needed his his attention full time as they were leading up to rehearsal. But, as I say, various friends of his, bits and pieces, his very good friend since the third grade is a young man who did end up HIV positive. He had a girlfriend -- Jonathan had a girlfriend who left him for a woman. I mean, all sorts of twists in this show came directly from his life or his interpretation of...

AVRIL BENOIT: Of the bohemian life. The life of artists in a New York loft.

AL LARSON: Artists in a New York loft. He lived in a fourth floor walk up where he had to throw down the key so you could get in, just as the boys do in the show. I mean, that's very accurate. You walked into his apartment and the first thing you saw when you walked in, you walk into the kitchen and there was a bathtub, a claw foot bathtub sitting there in the middle of the kitchen. That's the kind of place it was. And he loved it.

AVRIL BENOIT: Well, it does seem like such a free life and certainly one that is conducive to creativity. When you're sitting there in the audience, what are you thinking of when you're watching these young actors playing out your son's dream?

AL LARSON: Well, at various moments, I'm thinking various things. The dominant feeling is that of a father that Jonathan ought to be here. It's his success. And any parent can understand exactly what that feeling is.

AVRIL BENOIT: What would Jonathan have thought about the enormous success of this show? And even as we were listening to music a short while ago, you said the record went platinum.

AL LARSON: The record went platinum.

AVRIL BENOIT: Four productions touring across the country. Even now, there are Rent-heads, kind of like Dead-heads who follow the Grateful Dead across the country, there are kids who go from city to city watching every production.

AL LARSON: Yes, there are. And how Jonathan would have felt about it? I think on the one hand, even he would have been a little amazed. I mean, he was very self-confident. He wanted to bring the MTV generation into the theatre because he loved theatre, but he loved modern music much more than I can say I do. But he felt he had a mission in life and he was dead serious about it, more serious than I realised at the time. But he was serious about it and he achieved his goal. As I say, my problem is the fact that he's not here to basl in the glory of it all.

CH: From 1997, that was This Morning host Avril Benoit speaking with Al Larson about his late son, composer and playwright Jonathan Larson. 25 years ago today, Mr. Larson's musical Rent premiered a day after he died suddenly of an aortic aneurysm.

[Music: Calm Music]

Caligula’s Garden

Guest: Giorgia Leoni

CH: It's tough to find much to like about Caligula. Caligula ruled the Roman Empire almost 2000 years ago. In appearance, he was described as pale and hairy -- in character, lazy and perverse. Much of his debauchery took place at his favourite hideaway an imperial pleasure garden called Horti Lamiani. And despite the general loathsomeness of the emperor, that vast garden complex is of great interest to archaeologists who've spent recent years painstakingly unearthing and restoring it. It's now an underground gallery ready for public viewing. Archaeologist Giorgia Leoni has followed the project closely. We reached her in Rome.

CO: Giorgia, first of all, can you take us back 2000 years and describe what would happen on a typical night in Caligula's pleasure gardens?

GIORGIA LEONI: The Caligula Gardens, there are a lot of animals around the gardens and also people working inside of the garden with fountains and buildings and very precious statues and decoration because it is the Imperial Garden. So it is a very pleasure place.

CO: What kinds of animals?

GL: Oh, we carry out from the dig the bones of these kind of animals: lions, bears, ostriches, probably the same animals that the Romans have used in circus games of the Colosseum. And we have to imagine that Caligula, who was a very strange emperors love to go around in his garden with these kind of animals, cages or wild.

CO: So lions and tigers and bears and peacocks and ostriches roaming around with people. And was there theatre? Was there music? Were there spectacles?

GL: Yes. Yes, probably, yes. So we have found elements and also the ancient writers tell us about these games in the Colosseum and also in other cities of the Roman Empire, inside of buildings or inside of squares. So not so near to the people, but leaving the people look this kind of representation, this kind of games.

CO: Now, what is there now? What have you discovered is beneath the streets of Rome, what's remaining of Caligula's Gardens?

GL: You have to imagine the last banquettes bowls and plants and garden that make very playful place. And you have to imagine a very opulent decoration with marbles coming from all over the Mediterranean and also mosaic decoration on the floor of these buildings. And in the museum that is an underground gallery, we try to showcase a section of the Imperial Garden. It is a very important excavation commission started in 2006 and finished in 2015 with a lot of work altogether for the restoration and excavation of this kind of particularly ruins.

CO: You describe these villas, banquet halls full of opulent interiors, marble's mosaics, all of this. Now, Caligula's reputation was of well, of extreme behaviour. He was considered extravagant and quite awful lifestyle and appetites. So is it vulgar and gauche or I mean, is there beauty to any of these things that he has there?

GL: Yeah, you have to maintain a very spectacular garden and buildings with the most precious decoration because it is the imperial family. Caligula was the fourth of the 12 Caesars. So it is a very important element of the imperial family. And so it's used the most precious and famous and coloured marble decoration for the house and garden.

CO: So he had an aesthetic -- I mean, he was cruel and perverse, but he had a sense of aesthetics?

GL: Yes, a very sense of the aesthetic. Yes. It is very fascinated by the Greek culture and the Greek elements. And he loved going around his garden to control the building, control the elements and the decorations of this kind of structure. He loved going around with the prince and other people coming from the high part of the Society of Rome to show his [inaudible], to show his power also through this kind of decoration.

CO: Now, you have so many beautiful ancient ruins in Rome, what makes Caligula's garden special?

GL: Because we have a lot of ancient writers that spoke about our Horti Lamiani. And when Roma became the capital of Italy at the end of the 18th century, we make a lot of excavations and destroyed a lot of part of the of these gardens. So to discover this kind of structure today is a very real elements of something that is just right in the ancient books of the Roman history.

CO: Now, Caligula -- he was assassinated and he was cremated in his garden, at Horti Lamiani. And the rumour is, is that his ghost is still haunting those gardens.

GL: Yes. [Chuckles]

CO: Is that true? [Laughs] Do you have evidence of that?

GL: [Laughs] No, no, no, no. But I can say that it is very amazing, discreet and to carry out this kind of objects -- a lot of people work in this excavation to make and to tell to the public this history and this amazing history.

CO: All right. Well, it's very exciting that you're finally going to be able to open it Giorgia. And I appreciate you telling us the story. Thank you.

GL: You're welcome. Thank you.

CH: That was archaeologist Giorgia Leoni. We reached her in Rome, Italy.

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January 25, 2021 Episode Transcript

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