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The Current Transcript for January 22, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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FRANCOIS LEGAULT: If we change the rule and say you cannot give a ticket to somebody who is saying that is he's a homeless, you may have some people that will pretend to be a homeless.

MATT GALLOWAY: Winter has arrived in Montreal, and with it, a COVID curfew and a homelessness crisis. On Saturday, 51-year-old Raphael Andre was found dead steps from a shelter he regularly visited. In 30 minutes, why his death is spurring advocates to call for greater support for those out on the streets in the cold winter of this pandemic. Also, this morning, a scathing report on a toxic workplace leads the governor-general to come crashing to earth. What does the fall of Julie Payette mean for a prime minister accused of handpicking her? And later,.

WOMAN: [Speaking: Arabic]

REPORTER: Tunisian people are on the streets. Tunisian people aren't afraid. Tunisian people demand liberty, equality and dignity.

MATT GALLOWAY: It has been a decade since Tunisians took to the streets, demonstrations that kicked off wider protests that became known as the Arab Spring. Ten years on, what's changed in the region? We begin a special series looking at the legacy of those demonstrations, and the price paid. But we start with your questions on COVID, kids and teenagers. Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. And this is "The Current".

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Keeping kids healthy and happy during the pandemic

Guests: Anna Banerji, Tina Montreuil

MATT GALLOWAY: It has been nearly a year since the pandemic began, and it continues to affect all of our lives. For children and teens, though, still learning about who they are and the world around them, the impacts can feel particularly acute. And with no clear end in sight to lockdowns and other restrictions, many parents are wondering, are the kids going to be all right? This morning, we're putting some of your questions and concerns to two experts. And we'll get their advice on how to support kids through the pandemic and make sure they come out healthy and happy on the other side.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dr. Anna Banerji is a paediatrician and infectious disease specialist and an associate professor of paediatrics at the Temerty Faculty of Medicine at the University of Toronto. And Dr. Tina Montreuil is an assistant professor of education... and... educational and counselling psychology pardon me, and an associate member of the Department of Psychiatry at McGill University. Doctors, good morning to you both.

ANNA BANERJI: Good morning, Matt.

TINA MONTREUIL: Good morning.

MATT GALLOWAY: Before we get into some of the questions that we got from listeners, and we have a lot of questions, so I want to get to them as soon as we can. Just broadly, and I'll ask you this, Dr. Montreuil, are the kids doing OK as this pandemic goes on? This is a question that I think a lot of parents are asking, just wondering broadly how our kids are doing?

TINA MONTREUIL: I think there's many reports that have been issued to address this question. Generally speaking, I think children are doing rather well. I am very much involved in the local schools here in Montreal. And this is what we hear, on average. Generally, children are doing rather well. They're adapting. Of course, there are these children sometimes with exceptionalities, either special learning needs, neurodevelopmental conditions that perhaps for some of these children adapting to this transition has been slightly more difficult. But I think, generally, children are adapting to their new reality.

MATT GALLOWAY: That's encouraging. I think a lot of parents will breathe a sigh of relief in hearing that.

TINA MONTREUIL: I think that that's something that we have to keep in mind. I think also, ultimately, we bring up the question of parents and children. I think the issue is also to ask ourselves as parents how are we doing? Because, of course, our children are a reflection of how we are managing this pandemic. So I think we might get a chance to talk about that this morning.

MATT GALLOWAY: We will indeed.

TINA MONTREUIL: [chuckle] It's an important issue.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dr. Banerji, we know that the pandemic has not affected everyone equally. There has been a disproportionate impact, particular on low income and racialized groups. What does that mean for how kids would experience the pandemic differently based on those factors?

ANNA BANERJI: So, yeah, so we know that racialized groups are disproportionately impacted. They tend to be, you know, again, I'm generalizing, but there can be more poverty in some of the racialized groups. And so they may not have the access to, for example, broadband Internet. They may not have tutors. They may not have a babysitter. They may not have a lot of the things that people who have more resources have. They may not have a fronty ard, a backyard. May not be able to... you know, may live in a basement apartment and not be able to get out. So there's a lot of ways that poverty, which tends to occur in some racialized groups, impacts the way COVID impacts the family.

MATT GALLOWAY: What does that say to you about the importance of kids being in school? Yesterday, Toronto's Hospital for Sick Children, one of the largest children's hospitals in the country, said that kids need to be back learning in classrooms as soon as possible. But that can only happen with things like robust testing. Dr. Banerji, how important is it from your perspective for kids... for those steps to be taken so that kids can get back into the classroom?

ANNA BANERJI: So I think everyone agrees that ideally having kids at school is the best thing for them. You know, just it helps with the anxiety, except right now, we're in a lockdown, and the numbers are very high. And so I think that hopefully, this will end, you know, for, you know, for example, in the GTA area in the next few weeks. But there needs to be steps in place because we don't want to send kids back to school, and then have all these outbreaks, and then have classes or kids, you know, back off school. And that on and off and, on and off is very anxiety-provoking. So there are things that we can do, like physical distancing. And making sure the kids have the masks. Doing testing of all the kids. And making sure that any kid who's symptomatic or any teacher that's symptomatic gets tested and is taken out of the pool. So there are things that haven't really been done consistently, you know, depending again where you live in the country. But there are things that need to be done to try to make things as safe as possible for kids. But I think, ideally, you know, if we can get some measures into place to keep the kids safe, having them go back to school would be the best thing.

MATT GALLOWAY: You said something really interesting, which is hopefully this will end. And I think that's something that a lot of us are feeling. But kids are asking when this is going to end? It's not clear when these restrictions will be lifted even as a vaccine rollout has begun. Our producer in Vancouver, Anne Penman, asked some teens for their thoughts. Take a listen to this.

BOY: It's tough being... being alone, you know? It's... it's so hard. And I play basketball a lot personally, so sports for anybody could really help. I would like to know if or when the COVID pandemic will be resolved and when we will all be able to go back to normal? Because that'd be great. And I'm looking forward to seeing my grandparents.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dr. Montreuil, what do you say when... when kids ask that, when is this going to be over?

TINA MONTREUIL: Yes. So, of course, I think the teens are the perhaps the demographics are that are most impacted by this pandemic and the social isolation that comes from it. And so I think this is the hard part about the pandemic, is that [laughing] in terms of anxiety, triggers of anxiety, there's a lack of control. But there's also the unpredictability, the not knowing. And currently, definitely, the pandemic is really playing on that dimension. We really don't know when. So one of the things that, you know, in therapy, normally that we work on is just really working at making our flexibility or making us more acceptant of this notion of not knowing. And so concretely, I think it's just something that we have to just get accustomed to and really having a mindset or a perspective on the now because, for example, now, I know I'm on this show. And I know, for example, that at 9:00, I have a meeting. So there's things that I do know. So it's really critical that we train our brain to focus on the now. And so this is not easy for teens, but there are things, concrete tools that we can teach them to really help them be a bit more resilient in the face of uncertainty.

MATT GALLOWAY: So it's that idea of thinking about what is not what if?

TINA MONTREUIL: It's a very tough, tough task to achieve. But it's essentially something that we have to train our brain to become more accustomed to, more accepting top and less resistance to that notion.

MATT GALLOWAY: OK, we have a lot of questions that I want to work through, so let's whip through some of them. This question came from Holly Witteman in Quebec City.

READER: I've lived with a chronic autoimmune disease since childhood that puts me at higher risk of hospitalization and death due to COVID. Because we live in Quebec, my 14-year-old and nine-year-old are required to attend school in-person. They know about my elevated risks, and they initiated taking extra precautions like wearing masks in class from the start. Because, in their words, it's better than not having a mom anymore. My nine-year-old's been having nightmares. I'm wondering if the panel has any suggestions for those of us who don't have a choice to keep our kids home? How can we best support our kids who are worried about bringing COVID home to a parent who's at higher risk?

MATT GALLOWAY: It's a great question. Dr. Banerji, any thoughts?

ANNA BANERJI: I think it's very challenging. And I can see where the anxiety comes from. And I think part of it is validating those fears. You know, those fears are real. That, you know, that someone could potentially bring some something home. So I think part of it is what we were talking about before is hope that this is going to end. It's not going to be this way right now. Now, I think that, you know, Quebec is different from other parts where it's mandated that kids go to school. But so far, you know, over the past ten months, you haven't gotten sick, and you haven't gotten COVID. And I think hopefully there is the vaccine somewhere around the corner. So I think that also looking at hope.

MATT GALLOWAY: Right.

ANNA BANERJI: We're not going to be in this place next year at this time. You know, things... with the vaccine, the numbers are starting to come down in parts of Canada. It seemed to peak. Let's hope that that that was the peak, and then we're going to continue to go down. We don't really know. There's a lot of uncertainty. But just the hope that this is not going to last for forever, you know? And in the next few months, we probably will see things go down quite significantly with the warmer weather.

MATT GALLOWAY: We've got another question that picks up on that. And it reads, Our six-year-old grandson is becoming unusually anxious to the point where he was asked to take a drink from a friend's water bottle because he'd forgotten his own. He lay down on the ground and sobbed. When asked what was bothering him, he screamed, "germs". How do we strike a healthy balance between understanding the reasons for being kept at home and still feeling safe in normal activities? Dr. Montreuil?

TINA MONTREUIL: Yes. So I think first and foremost, there's just a contextual thing where I think even any child right now would probably not have wanted to drink from another child's bottle. But beside this notion of germs is really the issue of teaching our children that there's a reality. This is what we're faced with. So it's not really being in denial. It's really being transparent and objective with our children. But sort of this notion of hope and optimism is really focussing on things like empowering children, like letting them know, for example, what are we doing to really increase our protection, to increase our immunity? And so, of course, there's always a risk. This is the tricky part about anxiety or any anxiety susceptibility in individuals is that there's always going to be a risk. And so it depends on our susceptibility or vulnerability to that risk. But essentially, it's teaching our children, as Dr. Banerji was saying, you know, like, we've made it this far, we haven't gotten sick, we've been well. Reinforcing that, you know, some of the strategies that we're doing applied by or recommended by public health have been working, have been effective. And, of course, you know, really teaching our children as well that, you know, a certain level or some level of germs are OK. It's really trying to strike that balance. And that's really challenging right now because we're all really stretched. But I think it's really just reminding ourselves of that. That, you know, we're not in denial, we're not panicked, we're somewhere in the middle.

MATT GALLOWAY: But as you've said, I mean, this isn't going to go on forever. But we've got a question from SarahJane Dykeman in Courtenay, British Columbia, who wrote, It seems like there are increasing rates of social anxiety among children and young adults these days as social media and screens have become even more a part of our lives. What can we do to keep this from becoming ingrained in them to avoid social situations once the pandemic is over? Dr. Montreuil?

TINA MONTREUIL: Yeah, so I think this, again, it seems like easy, but it's this notion of balance. So, for example, in devising my classes this semester, it's really abiding by right now we're doing everything remotely. But what can I do that can discourage more traditional modes of teaching, for example? So it's really critical right now that although our children, and in our case in Quebec, they're not... they're not online for the most part. But, you know, like, what are other things that they can do? Like, really try to elicit their their interest. And us as well become interested in other activities that are not involving the screens.

MATT GALLOWAY: I was going to say, do... do you worry about... I mean, people talk about social development, and particularly amongst younger kids. If they're not out meeting other kids, that that social development could be affected, their ability to interact with other kids. Do you worry about that? [pause] Dr. Montreuil?

TINA MONTREUIL: oh, I apologize. I thought you were asking your other guest.

MATT GALLOWAY: That's OK.

TINA MONTREUIL: So definitely, this is something I think that, you know, going back to Dr. Banerji, the importance... I totally agree, the importance of children being in school. One of the primary reasons, yes, it's learning, but it's mainly socializing with other children. So if we are, for example, in Ontario, and we are under lockdown, and our children are not in school, I think what can we do if you know... of course, if they have siblings, great. If they don't, what can we do to maybe encourage our children to be out, even though they're not as proximal to other children, but to see other children play, to be outside, outdoors, we have to do our best with the possibilities that we have while respecting these restrictions. But anything we can do to promote child engagement in outdoors activities with other children, if possible, is highly recommended during these times.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dr. Banerji, let me ask you about screen time. There is a lot of concern in many households about screen time. Partially, it's about the time that kids are spending if they're doing remote learning. But it's also just they're not out seeing other friends, and they might disappear into the TikTock or YouTube black hole. Are you concerned about screen time?

ANNA BANERJI: I am. I think that if kids are sitting there all day on a computer and then they spend the evenings on social media, TikTok, etc. Well, first of all, they're not getting any or very much exercise. They're not socializing in any real kind of way. And I think that, you know, a lot of that, again, contributes to the... To the anxiety. And I was... I would agree with Dr. Montreuil. I think we need to get the kids to go outside, you know, limit the amount of screen time after... After classes. Maybe a maximum one hour a day. And just, you know, get the kids outside, maybe have porch visits where, you know, kids can be on the sidewalk, if you have a porch, you know, and say hello. But I think that increasing outdoor activities will decrease some of the anxiety. And the other thing I just want to say is with the social development, I think that kids are resilient. I mean, even I, like now when I see people hug people on TV, I cringe. [Matt chuckles] But I think that once that becomes normalized again, you know, I think that kids will very quickly adapt to, you know, the kind of behaviour where we're able to hug people and we're not going to be scared of people without masks. So I think that there's a lot of resiliency for kids. But I think.... I think a large part of it is trying to get other activities, you know, out, get them outside, and doing maybe if it's possible, arts and crafts or reading a book or doing other things. But I think kids need to reduce the amount of screen time.

MATT GALLOWAY: One of the reasons why those kids are on the screens, many of them, is because of online learning. Not everyone is a fan of online learning. Samantha Paris sent us this comment from her young son.

CADEN PARIS: My name is Caden. And I'm in Grade Two. And I don't like online school because I miss my friends a lot. And it's also way harder to do work.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dr. Banerji, is there a risk of kids falling behind academically, specifically younger children, because they don't have that face-to-face interaction? It's through a screen, but it's a different thing than being in a classroom with a teacher and other students.

ANNA BANERJI: I think for some kids, they might fall behind. Some kids, you know, they may not have, again, the access to the broadband Internet. They may not have a parent that can help them with their homework while the parent's trying to work on their own work, or the parent is very stressed. I think a lot of kids have adapted to the online learning, especially older kids that are independent. But some of the younger kids, probably some of them are struggling, especially kids that have ADHD or, you know, developmental delay, or just are bored. But again, I think that this... this... children are very resilient. And I think once things start normalizing, I'm hopeful that many of those kids will be able to catch up.

MATT GALLOWAY: Is there anything the parents, just before we get to another question, is there anything the parents can do if they are concerned, as you are, that perhaps their kid might be... might be falling behind?

ANNA BANERJI: I think, you know, there are a lot of things that you could do if you have the support to get that additional support. But I think right now, maybe all of us need to decrease the pressure on ourselves, right? Kids, you know, once this is over, you know, once-in-a-century kind of thing that we're all going through. And parents have a lot of pressure saying, oh, my kid's not going to be able to catch up and we're... we're going to have problems. Just to say you're not alone. There are so many families, if not the majority of families, that are struggling with this right now. You know, at least a large number of families. And so I think the kids feel the anxiety that the parents have. So if we sort of let it go a bit and so, you know, they will catch up, things will get better, you know... you know, once this is over, we're going to get back to normal. And even if there's a little bit of a delay, that's a delay that many, many kids will experience. And so the kids that are doing really well online, maybe they've got an advantage. But I think if we can reduce the pressure on families and kids, then that will go a long way in helping them learn and adjust.

MATT GALLOWAY: that speaks in many ways to... I mean, there were a lot of questions that we received around mental health and kids mental health. And we could spend a couple of hours, I think, getting through those questions. This comes from a young student in Ottawa.

MILA Hello, my name is Mila. And I'm a grade four student [name uniteligable] . The pandemic has not been easy on me and my friends. I Have not been able to play with them. I also really, really, really miss being in schools with my teachers. My question is this, what are some things I can do during the lockdown to benefit my mental health? Thank you for taking my question.

MATT GALLOWAY: Thank you for your question, Mila. Dr. Montreuil, what are some strategies that kids might want to employ that would foster some sort of sense of resilience?

TINA MONTREUIL: Yes. So we've named a lot of them already, like a lot of physical time. Whenever I'm indoors tand I feel my children getting edgy, the best thing to do is just go out, let them play. So obviously, a lot of outdoors play. You know, a lot of things that we can do as well is teach them, for example, to there's a lot of programs out there. You know, our group has has one, but essentially it's really teaching children to become aware, aware of how they're feeling, aware of their thoughts before we mentioned, you know, validation. That's the first step, validating, normalizing. A lot of what Dr. Banerji was saying is just normalizing that right now, we are in mass all experiencing this at the same time. It really has an impact on our brain and really kind of soothing. And we have to go as well with the options that, you know, creating any type... like we mentioned board games. You know, like, reading. So really trying to get our kids to think that, you know, like we have to develop a repertoire of options. And so we... I think it's a good idea to do that. For children to make a list, for example, of things that relax them, things that are enjoyable, hobbies for them, and then get them to pick and choose from this list.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dr. Banerji, we just have about 30 seconds left, is there a tip that you would give to grade four Mila about how she might be able to address some of the concerns that she raised around mental health?

ANNA BANERJI: So it's... it's... basically, just to say again that things will get better, it's only probably a matter of months. You know, just hold on tight. And that what you're feeling right now is the way that many, many people are feeling. So what you're feeling is normal. It's an abnormal time. So, you know, just hang in there.

MATT GALLOWAY: I really appreciate you both being here. We got so many more questions, and we will come back to some of the questions and address them in the days ahead. In the meantime, thank you so much for this morning.

ANNA BANERJI: My pleasure.

TINA MONTREUIL: Thank you very much.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dr. Anna Banerji is a paediatrician, infectious disease specialist and associate professor of paediatrics at the Temerty School of Medicine at the University of Toronto. Dr. Tina Montreuil, an assistant professor of educational and counselling psychology, associate member of the Department of Psychiatry at McGill University. Thanks for all of your questions. As I mentioned, more to come. This is "The Current" on CBC Radio One. We're back in six minutes.

Julie Payette steps down after a scathing workplace report; advocates for the homeless question the impact of Quebec’s pandemic

Guests: Ashley Burke, Rosemary Barton, Jonathan Lebire, James Hughes

MATT GALLOWAY: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. And you're listening to "The Current".

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MATT GALLOWAY: Still to come, from Tunisia to Tahrir Square, how a desperate act by a single fruit seller ignited the Arab Spring. But first, the governor-general has left the building.

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MATT GALLOWAY: It is an explosive first for Canada, Governor-General Julie Payette resigned her post yesterday after a confidential report outlined her role in creating a toxic workplace at Rideau Hall. Dozens of people who filed complaints in that report spoke with the CBC's Ashley Burke, the reporter who originally broke this story. Ashley is a senior parliamentary reporter in Ottawa, and she joins me now, along with Rosemary Barton, the CBC's chief political correspondent. Good morning to you both.

ASHLEY BURKE: Morning.

ROSEMARY BARTON: Goodmorning.

MATT GALLOWAY: Ashley, you have spoken with dozens of sources over the course of six months in telling this story. What was their reaction to the news yesterday that Julie Payette resigned?

ASHLEY BURKE: They were stunned. I mean, Julie Payette has said publicly before in the past that failure is not an option at this job. This is someone who has gone to space twice. Who is determined. And sources thought that she would not decide to step down like she did yesterday. They were texting me saying that it was... it was a really emotional day. Some people were crying when they heard the news because they said there was such a sense of relief. They didn't think that there would be... this is a solution they were hoping for, but they didn't think it would happen. They thought the only solution was for them to leave the office altogether, to give up that part of their career. So now they're telling me that they're looking forward to the future at Rideau Hall, to start the healing process, is what what they said. And... and try to fix some of the damage that's been done by the governor-general.

MATT GALLOWAY: Much of what is in the report, presumably, is what you were hearing over the course of your reporting. The report has been described as blistering, scathing, disturbing. What do we know about what's in it?

ASHLEY BURKE: Yeah, the report itself is confidential. We were told this will not be released unless it through through an Access To Information request. And that could take months. It could be heavily redacted. But we do have a request for that. And what we know is from sources and from Dominic LeBlanc said yesterday, the head of the Queen's Privy Council, who described it that there were just some disturbing details in it. And I think a lot of it is what we've heard from sources throughout the past six months or so that we've spoken to — more than 20 former employees and current employees so far that described what they called a toxic work environment at Rideau Hall. They told us stories about Julie Payette belittling, berating and publicly humiliating employees. And that her second-in-command, a longtime friend, Assunta Di Lorenzo, was was also bullying staff, too, calling people lazy and incompetent. And together, it created an environment that got so toxic that droves of people went on sick leave or left altogether. And just to give a couple quick examples, you know, people talked about how it was particularly bad on foreign trips. Several sources described it in different ways. But they said that they claimed Julie Payette had what they called tantrums, or burst of emotions, or explosions on staff. And it was particularly bad in some of the plane rides home from these foreign trips, where she would have debriefs that would last hours in the plane, and sort of what they described as tear apart people's work publicly in front of their colleagues for sometimes hours on end. And people couldn't get off the plane. The only place to go was the bathroom. So when they got off the plane, they'd go to their cars and people were seen just breaking down in tears afterwards. There was also meetings, they said, that felt like an interrogation. People described that they always felt like a victim at meetings. And as well, you know, throughout... throughout sort of like pop quizzes. And they were put on the spot a lot. And just one example is at the beginning of Julie Payette's mandate, she would ask people, quizz them on... to name out all the planets in the solar system. And employees said that, you know, that does sound small, but it just made them feel like they were stupid and incompetent when they couldn't answer something like that in front of their colleagues. And over time, all of this just wore away people's self-worth. These are people took a lot of pride in their jobs at Rideau Hall. And a lot of them left because they just couldn't take it anymore.

MATT GALLOWAY: She has resigned. She's leaving. Has she accepted any responsibility for what happened?

ASHLEY BURKE: Well, yesterday she issued... yesterday, she issued a statement where she called the claims allegations still. And in that statement, you know, she also she said that, you know, this is sort of a case of interpretation. She apologized for what she called tensions at Rideau Hall in recent months, saying that everyone has a right to healthy and safe work environment. But she said there were no formal complaints which would have triggered an investigation by law. And she said, quote, We all experience things differently, but we should always strive to do better and to be attentive to one another's perceptions. She also suggested that she left for... that this was good timing for her because of personal reasons because she was citing her father's declining health, and said that she's come to the conclusion that Canadians deserve some stability in an uncertain time.

MATT GALLOWAY: Rosie, this is a first. Why, aside from that, is this resignation so significant?

ROSEMARY BARTON: I mean, I think a couple of reasons. First of all, the role of governor-general is not to grab headlines for bad behaviour, right? It is to uphold a parliamentary system and be a central component of our democracy, whether it be by bringing laws and legislation into laws, whether it be proroguing parliament, dissolving parliament, reading the throne speech. I mean, there's so many vital roles that this... that this person plays in our parliamentary system. And they're also supposed to be sort of, you know, representing Canada in some ways. And many governor-generals have taken different approaches to that. So it's a... it's a job that is frankly, like, not that hard. [laughing] Let's be honest, right? You have to you have to be available, and you have to be able to host people and parties and reach out to Canadians. And so for someone to... to fail and to create a workspace like this, I think it does a couple of things. First of all, it sends a really terrible message to Canadians who would be looking for that position for... for credibility and integrity and leadership and obviously are not finding it in this case. And then it also, you know, could have run the risk of putting us in a really difficult position with this minority government, because who knows what could have happened? And who knows what decisions Madame Payette could have been forced to make? And if she is having a hard time keeping people on the job, it would have been difficult, perhaps, for her to get the correct advice and then... and then take the right steps.

MATT GALLOWAY: There are other... also questions around the decision of putting her on the job in the first place. In September, the prime minister defended Julie Payette. Have a listen.

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: You have an excellent governor general right now. And I think on top of the covid crisis, nobody is looking at any constitutional crises. We have put in place a process to review some of the working conditions at Rideau Hall. But that's not something that we're contemplating right now going further than that.

MATT GALLOWAY: There was a process that was put in place by the former prime minister, Stephen Harper, to choose a governor general. And the suggestion is that Prime Minister Trudeau skipped that process or cut some corners around that in getting Julie Payette. How much of this is he going to wear, Rosie?

ROSEMARY BARTON: I mean, he may already have worn the brunt of what the damage is when this first emerged, frankly. There were questions a week after [chuckling] she was appointed as to why the government chose Madame Payette? And some of the questions about her... her background. It's clear that whatever vetting should have been done was not done. I mean, Ashley also reported there were problems in previous workplaces. So it would have been a matter of a couple of simple phone calls. And, yes, he did away with a committee that Stephen Harper had put in place that was supposed to give advice to a prime minister about potential candidates. You know, there's been criticism that the prime minister and the government sort of got caught up in the celebrity of Madame Payette, and the idea of her and what she looked like on paper, and maybe didn't do the work behind it. I'm not sure that this goes much further? They've managed to resolve the situation. We are not in a constitutional crisis. The chief justice will step in until the government can find a replacement that works. But it could have been much worse. And the fact that these... that these people, that these employees at Rideau Hall had no recourse other than to reach out to Ashley is... Is really damaging for for Rideau Hall as an institution, and should be something that is of grave concern to the public service who might feel in times like this when there is someone who takes up so much space, and it's supposed to be the leader, and they simply cannot find a way to to be heard.

MATT GALLOWAY: It's great to speak with you both about this. Great work, Ashley and Rosie. Thank you very much.

ASHLEY BURKE: Thank you.

MATT GALLOWAY: Ashley Burke, CBC's senior parliamentary reporter. Rosemary Barton is the CBC's chief political correspondent.

[Music: Funky beat].

MATT GALLOWAY: This is The Current on CBC Radio One. My name is Matt Galloway. On Saturday night, Raphael Andre, a man in Montreal, was told that he could not sleep at the Open Door shelter because of COVID restrictions. Now, there were other shelters where he could have slept, but he didn't make it to them. Instead, he was found dead in a porta potty close to Open Door. And the death of Raphael Andre has sparked calls for change in how that province enforces lockdown measures... and who those lockdown measures are affecting.

MATT GALLOWAY: Jonathan Lebire is the shelter coordinator for Projets Autochones du Quebec in Montreal. Jonathan, good morning.

JOHNATHAN LEBIRE: Good morning.

MATT GALLOWAY: The night before Raphael Andre died, you saw him at Projets Autochones in Montreal. How was he doing?

JOHNATHAN LEBIRE: Well, he was doing fine, actually because it was like a complete week where we had to change our rules because we have to accept people only who get tested to make sure, like, we're... We're stopping the outbreak that there were. So all week, I had to tell him that you had to be tested. And it was his last chance, so I did that for two or three days. And then on the Friday, we hads the CS team, like the nurse team, coming over to the shelter so that it was easier. So like for an hour or two, I kind of plead with him to make sure he would come. And it was like an argument. And then he came, sp he got tested like on Friday. And after, like he had his lunch and we had a bit of fun that evening. So we're like a pretty chilled evening like we usually get with him. Because he's pretty funny, like, he's a lot talkative and funny.

MATT GALLOWAY: So given, I mean, how you knew him and the work that you'd done with him, what was your reaction when you heard that he died?

JOHNATHAN LEBIRE: Well, unfortunately, it's something I'm getting used to. So, for sure, my first reaction is to think about the consequences. So what am I going to have to deal with today because of this? For sure, a lot of sadness, you know, but it's something that happens so often. Like, I remember the 23rd of December two years ago, I found somebody dead in a back alley. We found somebody dead in the garbage bin. He got picked up by a truck. So it's things that we see a lot. And then sometimes it pops out in the media and stuff. But it is something I'm used to be on the street for a long time.

MATT GALLOWAY: How has your job changed since the pandemic started? We have heard calls, and it's not just in Montreal, but in major cities across the country that, you know, a crisis of homelessness has been exacerbated by this pandemic. How has that changed your job?

JOHNATHAN LEBIRE: Well, changing my job in the fact that I was never trained to deal with something like this. Like, my main experience is to intervene, to try and make somebody's talk, make him feel good, make people laugh and smile so they can get better and then they want to do better. But with the COVID like think was a general panic. Like, even in the organization. So our job became mostly to be people that are taking care of the COVID symptoms. Do you have symptoms? Are you OK? You can come in. You can not come in. So that was like the big.... and when the outbreak came to our shelter, like, that was really, really hard. So we had to have a red zone. We had to isolate people. We had to work all night with people that were tested positive. So it was like a rough experience for everyone. And I think seeing us being deorganized like this, not really helping them.

MATT GALLOWAY: In a shelter, how difficult is it to enforce the COVID protocols that public health say are so important, things like wearing a mask and social distancing?

JOHNATHAN LEBIRE: Yeah, well, it depends what kind of shelter you run to, I guess. But I'm not sure. But I think we have one or one of the few wet shelters in Montreal. So we allow people coming in, even intoxicated, under consumption. The only thing we don't accept is aggressivity. But the thing is aggressivity always happens. So then we have to react about it and not accept it. But still, it's a reality. So, for sure, for us, it's a bit harder because it's people that are dealing with severe traumas. Like, if we're talking about like Native people, there are all the Aboriginal known traumas, like residential schools and stuff like this. And then you have the traumas coming in from your life on the street, plus all the suffering that led you to this. So.. so they're dealing with a lot. So, for sure, when you're like, oh, maybe you're going to get sick if you don't wear a mask, they don't care that much. So it's up to us to find a way to make a bridge between the needs and trying to make it positive for them.\

MATT GALLOWAY: What has the... The curfew done? I mean, there's now an 8:00 p.m. curfew. And so what is the impact that that has had on the clients that you work with?

JOHNATHAN LEBIRE: I haven't seen that much repercussion in the person that I know. So, say, I didn't see like nobody getting like a ticket or something? The thing I see, though, is like they cannot have nothing to drink or buy cigarettes after 8:00. And often, they do still have money. So I've seen a lot of people are going to go and buy drugs instead now, or drugs is being offered to them, at least because the dealers, they know know that there's some money available, and that there's no place to go and spend it, YOU KNOW?

MATT GALLOWAY: Winter's just really getting started. I mean, and it's cold. It's going to be cold for the next many, many weeks. What do you need to see change so that the situation that you saw, and the tragic death of Raphael Andre is not repeated with other clients that you work with?

JOHNATHAN LEBIRE: Well, that's a really big, big question and a tricky one, too, because, like I said, it's something that is happening since like ever, since I know at least in 20 years. There's this saying if want something new, you got to try something you never tried before. So I think that's where we're at. You know, we need to like humanize our services. You know when I work, often, I keep in mind it could be your dad. It could be your sister. So how would you like me to treat them?

MATT GALLOWAY: So when you say humanize the services, that means look at people as human beings, as awkward and as awful as that sounds?

JOHNATHAN LEBIRE: Sure There's another thing to realize. Often, I've been reproched by proximity and involvement, because normally, when you go to normal like university process, they teach you to be objective, to take your distance, which which I get, but is something like I don't with the people I do work with. It works because the thing is, they're so isolated. They're being said that they're going to get help for so many times, which is not really happening. There's people I know for 15 years like that I still see with the same problems. Organization are overwhelmed. It's hard to fight for money. So instead of fighting for our participants, we fight for our own survival often. We don't get money for our basic missions. We can't even get a coordinator paid. So organization, they has to be more restrictive. They have to be more efficient. So asking what happens, there's a lot of work and respect. We have to set down rules for people who don't really care about rules. And when we put rules they use, they break the rules to manifest the fact that they're not going well. So we need the community. We need a strong community to find a solution out of the box. We need to work together. We need the experts on the floor with us, you know, like peoples in university, like experts for different reasons. I think from what I've seen so far, that's what we need. And for the people that are the people on the street, forgiveness, love and understanding, that's what is not there so far, and that we really need.

MATT GALLOWAY: Jonathan, good to speak with you. And thanks for the work that you're doing.

JOHNATHAN LEBIRE: Thank you.

MATT GALLOWAY: Jonathan Lebire is a shelter coordinator at Projets Autochon du Quebec, which operates a homeless shelter in Montreal. Last summer, the province of Quebec announced that they would open three new temporary homeless shelters in Montreal, as most shelters cannot run at full capacity because of the pandemic. Yesterday, the province also announced another 150 beds in a soccer stadium for people experiencing homelessness who have tested positive for COVID-19. James Hughes is a CEO and president of the Old Brewery Mission in Montreal. James, good morning to you.

JAMES HUGHES: Yes, good morning, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: Jonathan was talking about this in many ways a systemic failure that led to the death of Raphael Andre. If you take a look at that system, where do you place the blame for his death?

JAMES HUGHES: Yeah, tough question. You know, it's such a tragic situation for... for everyone. It's exactly what's not supposed to happen. That's why our organizations exist, is to provide those basic emergency services so people can survive through the winter, survive through the year. And obviously, it broke down with respect to Raphael Andre. And placing the blame is really tough. You know, thinking in hindsight, what could have been done, what should have been done, is a... is a really tough exercise to go through. But I mean, ultimately, the system didn't identify that need to get him from A to B. What creatively could we have done to make sure that happens through shuttle services, other kind of services after the organization closed its doors? You know, were obviously the questions that weren't answered and led to the... led to the very, very unfortunate passing.

MATT GALLOWAY: Are the resources there? The premier, Francois Legault, said recently that there are enough beds for people in Montreal who would find themselves homeless. Do you agree?

JAMES HUGHES: Well, it's a nuanced answer because there's not enough of the right resources, if there was Rafael, Andre may have had the right resources to get to the right place --

MATT GALLOWAY: And the right resources are what you're talking about there, the bridging elements, the connective tissue between one place and another?

JAMES HUGHES: Exactly. Beautifully said. That connective tissue, that systemic approach where organizations and the health services are working together to identify, support and ensure that 100 per cent of the people are getting the kind of support they need to survive through this very, very tough period. And most people are. You know, most people are getting through it. Capacity has expanded, roles have changed, protocols have been put in place precisely for that reason. And I say to a very large extent we've adapted to a really tough situation with success, but obviously not perfect success.

MATT GALLOWAY: Quebec is the only province in this country with a curfew. And the premier has said that homeless... People who find themselves homeless can't be exempt from the curfew because others might, in his words, pretend to be homeless to skirt the rules. Yesterday, the premier also had this to say. Take a listen.

FRANCOIS LEGAULT: Their objective is not to give them tickets, and they know very well that the homeless cannot pay tickets. So what's my responsibility is to find a balance, to help the police officers being able easily to apply the curfew to make sure that everybody respects the curfew.

MATT GALLOWAY: James Hughes, how has the curfew impacted the situation that you are working with in Montreal?

JAMES HUGHES: Yeah, it hasn't helped. I mean, just, you know, globally speaking, I mean, the province had to do something. The numbers were going up and, you know, significant new measures had to be put in place so, you know, we don't object to the curfew. But of course, 8:00 is not when homelessness stops. Homelessness is a 24/7 reality. The Old Brewery Mission has been working 24/7, 365 forever. And we continue to do that. You know, most people are respecting the curfew in the homelessness sector. For sure, we're doing our best.

MATT GALLOWAY: Do your clients trust the fact that they won't perhaps be fined if they're out on the streets after 8:00 pm?

JAMES HUGHES: I mean, our information is there's been six tickets that have been issued. We are in touch with the police. We're asking about those circumstances. Like, what... under what circumstances would you give a ticket to a homeless person there? Their reaction, and to a large extent, what we're hearing is that they're working to try to help people to get into resources to respect the curfew. So it's that tolerance and discernment that is being exercised to a very large extent. But six tickets to six tickets to many. As the premier said, they can't afford this. They're in extreme poverty. So in those circumstances better be incredibly specific to justify it. And I haven't actually heard any such justification yet.

MATT GALLOWAY: So what do you want to see? I mean, Jonathan Lebire talked about the the dangers of an outbreak within a congregate setting like a shelter, and you'd know that very well. You've talked about that connective tissue and those services. But what else could be done in the wake of Raphael's death and with numbers among that population still going upwards and the temperature going down?

JAMES HUGHES: Yeah, so what... I mean, what we need to do is, is to continue to adapt. I mean, what we have done up and up to date now is basically play chess with COVID. COVID makes a move, and then we counter it. We see an outbreak in one facility. We have to move people out of another to move homeless people in so that they can isolate and be protected and the rest of the population can be protected. But then, COVID hits another shelter, and then so we have to adjust again. So what we have to do, Matt, is stay in front of it. We have to make sure we continue to add capacity until everyone on the street is vaccinated. Until every one of the workers is vaccinated as well. That is really what we have to do to to take this on and beat it.

MATT GALLOWAY: And in the short-term, that sounds like a long-term game in some terms. In the short-term, what do you have to do?

JAMES HUGHES: Well, that is the short-term.

MATT GALLOWAY: While people wait for a vaccine, though. I mean, that's going to be weeks, if not months.

JAMES HUGHES: Well, vaccinations have started, 200 vaccinations were given this week in Montreal to homeless people. Our staff at the Old Brewery Mission has started to get vaccinated as well. So, you know, that's one of the big successes. We call that an injection of hope for the sector is that everyone gets protected, and we get back to our basic business, the business of really getting to work with and know homeless people, and get them out of homelessness permanently through through housing. That's the future.

MATT GALLOWAY: This is a complex issue. And I really appreciate you taking time to walk us through the complexity of it. James, thank you. And good luck in the work that you're doing.

JAMES HUGHES: Thanks, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: James Hughes is the CEO and president of the Old Brewery Mission in Montreal. Your regional update is next. And then, what began in a small village in Tunisia rippled across the Middle East, toppled dictators and galvanized a movement. The Arab Spring, ten years on. What was accomplished and what is its legacy a decade later? We'll talk about that when we come back. I'm Matt Galloway, you're listening to "The Current". We're back in 90 seconds.

Arab Spring ten years on

Guest: Bessma Momani

MATT GALLOWAY: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to "The Current".

MAN: We've been afraid for 30 years, and no one is afraid now.

WOMAN: I think the poverty became their... they don't have anything else to lose.

MAN#2: This is the whole revolution Is all about. Once you have fear standing between you and your goals, you will never be able to achieve anything. So we have to push it to the limit, and we will see what will happen. Just wish us luck.

MATT GALLOWAY: Just wish us luck. Remember ten years ago, those extraordinary scenes in Tahrir Square. Tens of thousands of Egyptians demanding an end to dictatorship. Today, we begin a three-part series on the legacy of what became known as the Arab Spring. It was a movement that spread with breathtaking speed, but it did not begin in Cairo. It began a few weeks earlier in Tunisia with one modest fruit seller and one shocking act. In 2012, the CBC's Pyia Chattopadhyay spoke with his family and reflected on the movement he sparked. This is "From The Embers: The Story of Mohamed Bouazizi", the man who started the Arab Spring.

WOMAN: [Speaking Arabic].

TRANSLATOR: He was so happy the Thursday night before it happened. I'd never seen Mohamed in such good spirits as that night. He'd given money to his brothers and sisters. He'd given me money so I could get groceries. And he brought back some fruit for us that day. He was especially playful with his little brothers that night. The next day, the Friday, he was in such good spirits. He was going to meet his uncle after work, his dad's brother. His dad passed away, god have mercy on his soul, in 1989. And his uncle was the one who helped raise him since he was three years old. And they had plans to go to Friday prayers together.

[Music:Traditional egyptian]

TRANSLATOR: He was satisfied with his life. What God had written for him, he was pleased with, he wasn't even embarrassed of his life. He was spiritual. he wasn't ashamed of his life. He never worried.

WOMAN: [Speaking: Arabic].

PIYA CHATTOPADHYAY: No shame, his mother says. But that was about to change. Like many young Tunisians, Mohamed wanted a better job, but couldn't find one. He was just trying to make ends meet. He had to. He supported his mother, uncle and siblings by selling fruits and veggies from a wooden cart in Sidi Bouzid, the city where he was born and raised. He didn't have a permit to sell, but neither did most vendors, and it was unclear if they legally needed one.

WOMAN: [Speaking: Arabic]

TRANSLATOR: I swear to God, the police had been on Mohamed's case for seven years, not just him, but the other fruit sellers and others who sold things at the market. They would come and confiscate his fruit. Take away the scales mohamed used to weigh their produce. They take 15 or 20 dinars from Mohamed and just walk away with that. They would take his produce and just leave. That was normal under Ben Ali's rule.

PIYA CHATTOPADHYAY: On that 17th day of December, Mohamed began his work day. At around 10:30 in the morning, a female municipal inspector came by and confiscated his scale and produce. Angered, Mohamed offered no bribe, instead, fighting back. What happened next depends on whom you ask. The inspector denies it, but Mohamed's family says she did something considered an unthinkable affront in the Arab world; she slapped him in the face.

WOMAN: [Speaking:Arabic]

TRANSLATOR: Mohamed was so insulted by this lady. She slapped him and spit on his face in front of everybody, the whole street, in front of a busy taxi station. Old people, young people, everyone saw him get slapped. He was so deeply humiliated. She slapped him and spat on his face.

PIYA CHATTOPADHYAY: Embarrassed, devastated and distraught. Mohamed went to the local governor's office to complain, but no one would listen. He was thrown out. It was too much to bear. He then went to a store, bought paint thinner and returned to the government building. As traffic passed by, he poured the fuel on his body. Then he lit a match. He was rushed to hospital with burns to as much as 90 per cent of his body.

[Lots of yelling]

PIYA CHATTOPADHYAY: Within hours, a crowd had gathered outside the governor's office, including Mohamed's own mother. At first, just a few dozen friends and relatives throwing coins at the building and shouting, Here's your bribe. Then, along with fellow fruit vendors dumping their goods in front of the building in protest, people came by the hundreds. The jobless, the underemployed, the poor.

[Lots of yelling]

PIYA CHATTOPADHYAY: They were ordinary Tunisians fed up with the region's high unemployment and decades of rampant corruption. His sister, Leila, says Mohamed tried to draw attention to those not listened to in Tunisia.

WOMAN#2: [Speaking: Arabic]

TRANSLATOR: His message was that every human, the less fortunate, those who don't have anything, the poor, those who are not healthy enough to work or serve the country, the government has to help them and has to stand with them. These people should not be tossed aside and forgotten and disrespected. They deserve dignity, the right to live, to speak freely. That was the message that my brother Mohamed is trying to send.

PIYA CHATTOPADHYAY: Whether or not that was Mohamed's intended message, it took on a life of its own. With a single match, he became a legend. The message clearly hit a nerve encapsulated in a song that would soon become anthemic for the Tunisian revolution.

[Music: "Kelmti Horra" by Amel Mathlouthi]

PIYA CHATTOPADHYAY: I am those who are free and never fear. I am the secrets that will never die. I am the voice of those who would not give. I am the meaning amid the chaos. I am the right of the oppressed that is sold by these dogs. Who rob the people of their daily bread. And slammed the door in the face of ideas. I am free. And my word is free.

[cheering, whistling and clapping]

PIYA CHATTOPADHYAY: Pent up anger unbuckled on the streets of Sidi Bouzid as hundreds joined in protests in the next day-and-a-half. It was unheard of in a country ruled by decades of dictatorship. Where speaking out against the government would likely end in jail. From one Tunisian town to the next, and city to city, they dared to protest. The dictator responding in the only way he'd ever known, by sending security forces with batons and bullets into the streets. But the die had already been cast.

[Music: A news-like theme]

PIYA CHATTOPADHYAY: The news of such defiance was vociferous, spreading like wildfire through the Internet and propelled through the Arab world and beyond, through Al Jazeera TV.

WOMAN#3: [Speaking: Arabic].

PIYA CHATTOPADHYAY: Mohamed Bouazizi would die from his burns on January the 4th, 2011. Some 5,000 Tunisians attended his funeral. Ten days later, Zine El Abidine Ben Ali, who fearlessly ruled Tunisia for 23 years, fled the country. Among the crowd at one of the largest vigils in the capital that day was Amel Mathlouthi, who stood up amongst the protesters and captivated the crowd by singing her song.

[Music: "Kelmti Horra" by Amel Mathouthi]

PIYA CHATTOPADHYAY: The lack of jobs, the longing for freedom, the ethos of protest may have been brewing for years in the Arab world. But Mohamed Bouazizi's public suicide was the catalyst, capturing the imaginations and frustrations of a generation. His death, and more importantly, what it came to symbolize turned him into a man of mythic proportions, one the people believed died with dignity rather than lived with humiliation. He's the man who gave birth to the Arab Spring. And in death, brought a wistful pride to his family.

WOMAN#5: [Speaking: Arabic]

TRANSLATOR: The whole world is proud of him. He brought dignity back not just to Tunisia but other countries like Libya, Egypt, Yemen and, God willing, the rest of the world becomes free as well. For 23 years we had been oppressed. The people here crushed, silenced, and now they can speak freely and express themselves. And I hope people value that and appreciate the legacy he left. God willing.

WOMAN: [Speaking: Arabic].

TRANSLATOR: What matters the most to me is that people pray for his soul. Whenever I hear people say, may he rest in peace, I feel happy. I am proud. All of Tunisia is proud of him. What matters the most is that God has mercy on his soul, that he is considered a martyr. And may he rest in peace.

WOMAN#2: [Speaking: Arabic]

TRANSLATOR: I've always wished that Mohamed were still alive to see what he did. He was the spark that caused this fire that will not go out now. If he knew that, it would have put his heart at rest. He would have felt joy not only for himself but for all of Tunisia and other Tunisians who've lived through insults, and oppression, and tyranny. I praise God for sending Mohamed to us to heal the world and to heal the Arab world. What gives me comfort when I think of my brother is that he brought weak people, people who are facing hard times. He brought them out of the darkness and into the light. The people who were struggling, people who were tortured, who suffered. All of those people, the world can now see them for who they are. The world sees them now. Because of my brother, we now see the people who have been struggling for who they are. And the corrupt leaders of these countries have also been exposed for who they really are.

[Music: "Kelmti Horra" by Amel Mathouthi]

MATT GALLOWAY: The documentary was produced by Chattopadhyay in 2012, with research and translation by Pacinthe Mattar. Some of the corrupt leaders across the region may have been exposed and deposed, and a generation of young people experienced a political awakening. But how much of that spirit of 2011 still lives today? Bessma Momani is a professor of political science at the University of Waterloo and a senior fellow with the Centre for International Governance Innovation. Bessma, good morning.

BESSMA MOMANI: Good morning.

MATT GALLOWAY: That documentary is from 2012. Eight years later, how is Mohamed Bouazizi remembered in Tunisia today?

BESSMA MOMANI: Well, I think that sentiment still remains and that, you know, in many ways he died for a national movement. And Tunisia, of course, has had a lot of struggles in between. But at the same time, I think there's lots to celebrate in that we do see very much a functioning democracy, a very open liberal media space. And I would say, even though, again, there's a lot of challenges, some of which I think is more structural in terms of the economic situation. It's hard. It's hard regionally. It's hard today globally, of course. But still, the majority of Tunisians today don't regret. I mean, polls that have been done show that the vast majority of Tunisians don't regret that the Arab Spring happened, that they had their revolution. That's not to say there aren't hardships because, you know, many of the same sort of challenges of unemployment, corruption, disparities between the rich and poor continue, unfortunately.

MATT GALLOWAY: What was that spark? If those disparities were there and those conditions were long-standing, unemployment, anger at the corruption. Was the spark that gave opponents... we heard, I mean, the didn't feel the fear. They shrugged off that concern that they had and they had the courage to stand up. What was behind that, do you think?

BESSMA MOMANI: Well, I think there's a really iconic image that really resonated in the country at the time, which was the president, Ben Ali, went to go see Mohamed Bouazizi in the hospital. And Mohamed was wrapped up, all bandaged, almost mummified, all you could see his eyes. And frankly, the sort of patterning, almost dismissive look and tone of the president, almost like he was kind of forced by his PR people to go visit. It just really set off an added sense of anger, this gap between the elite, the political elite and the masses. And so what we saw was even more people frustrated that, you know, you couldn't even get a proper apology or recognition of the responsibility of the government and state for the condition of the people. So I think this was really an iconic moment. And then every other Arab country that kind of, you know, experienced the Arab Spring, had its own particular circumstances. But there was a demonstration effect. There was this sort of domino feeling like... and I saw this, for example, with the Egyptian revolution, which sort of happened very soon after that. Well, hey, if the Tunisians can do this. We could do this. We're the epicentre of, you know, Arab intellectual thought. And that kind of demonstration effect the success of all these countries before it being able to remove their leaders in pretty short order. You know, weeks in some cases for regimes that have been entrenched for decades, really motivated others to go out and to continue to ask for change.

MATT GALLOWAY: At the time, people pointed to social media calling this a Twitter revolution. How important was social media in terms of an organizing force for those demonstrators?

BESSMA MOMANI: It was vital. It was vital because also the security sector in many of these countries really at that time didn't monitor social media. In fact, they weren't really online. They were very much kind of old school type of intelligence services, you know, kind of patrolling the streets, undercover, you know, going to universities to see sort of where there might be, you know, critical thinking. But in terms of the online space, it was completely unmonitored in many ways. And that really meant that there was a entire public square online that many Arab youth particularly were able to use. And this is a region that is hyper-connected in many ways. You know, one of the great things is that they have a lot more opportunity to be online than other places in the world. And so that really motivated the conversation, the awakening. Unfortunately, today, you know, the Arab countries have really learned from that experience. And now, we have an entire digital authoritarian structure where they're, in fact, monitoring people online using very sophisticated technologies, and frankly, in very devastating ways to to free speech in the cyberworld.

MATT GALLOWAY: We've spoken to you, of course, many, many times as an academic about these movements. But if you think back a decade ago, I mean, on a personal level, what do you remember about watching these movements as they spread across the region and how you interpreted it then?

BESSMA MOMANI: Hope, I mean, that's the word that I keep thinking of. There was hope. You know, that many young people that I had a chance to meet across the region were so optimistic about their future for the very first time. You know, they've had dreams, they had visions, they felt proud. The pride I would see of particular Arab youth, many of them coming to the West to talk in lecture halls. But even on many other platforms, you know, there was this sense of pride, certainly pan-Arabism, because of this movement sort of taking this domino effect throughout the region. That was really, I think, quite remarkable. You know, we saw amazing scenes. I remember in Egypt where, you know, unfortunately, litter is very common. The streets aren't always the most pristine. You know, people going down to the street and actually cleaning their neighbourhood in a very specific fashion, you know, this kind of pride in their country. And, you know, for so long, unfortunately, you know, so many people kind of just wanted to ignore almost, you know, put blinders on for all of the awful things happening, and just kind of go home and not think about what's happening out there. And yet, there was this reversal of, again, pride, hope and seeing a very positive future for them and their families.

MATT GALLOWAY: What happened to that hope? I mean, in Tunisia, the president, Ben Ali, did resign. And in Egypt, Hosni Mubarak resigned. But Egypt is still under rule of an autocrat. Syria, of course, the legacy of Syria is a heartbreaking and brutal one over the last ten years. What happened to that hope, do you think?

BESSMA MOMANI: You know, unfortunately, and again, there's been lots of polls that show in most countries there is no regret, certainly Libya, Syria and Yemen there is, but the vast majority are not. But I think the mood now, unfortunately, in fact, what we see is people just want to leave, you know, the sense of frustration, almost giving up on, you know, hope for change inside their countries and now wanting to to emigrate. You see, unfortunately, that means many people, particularly those who are kind of on the coastline, taking to the rickety boats again to cross the Mediterranean to Europe. We see that very much in Tunisia and Morocco, to a lesser extent in Egypt. But even Lebanon, unfortunately, which didn't really experience the Arab Spring the first time around, now sees an exodus on these rickety boats in ways that had never existed before.

MATT GALLOWAY: Many of those have left. And many who who started these revolutions have been forced to flee to countries like Canada. When you take a look at the diaspora populations here, what is the impact of those populations in the work that some of those individuals are still doing from abroad? What's the impact of that on the future of those movements?

BESSMA MOMANI: You know, honestly, that's one of the things that keeps me hopeful about sort of positive political and economic change in the region, is the diaspora. You know, the diaspora, many of them are indeed, I think, the more politically inclined, certainly those that maybe are more aspirational and ambitious to want to sort of see a better country have come to primarily the West, but certainly Canada, the United States, more so Europe. And, you know, they haven't turned their backs on their countries. In fact, what I find is that the diaspora movement is more energized than ever. We're seeing artists, filmmakers, investigative journalists continuing to operate in the diaspora. Germany is sort of an epicentre of so much great cultural works that are happening right now. And, of course, that doesn't have borders. I mean, it's being beamed into the Arab world. And that is changing conversations. So new films that are approaching taboo topics that are social and cultural, that are making its way onto the Middle East market, sometimes using Netflix, sometimes, you know, online. And this is I think, again, the awakening that we would have seen inside the country had, frankly, you know, the political process had continued to democratize. But now they're outside the country. So I think that brings hope in many ways. It really is quite remarkable what you're seeing happening in the diaspora movement.

MATT GALLOWAY: Awakening is such an interesting word because I've heard that would be being used by those who were there in those movements saying, you know, in that moment they felt alive. And that they felt that they had some sort of awakening. Is that the legacy of the Arab Spring a decade later?

BESSMA MOMANI: Absolutely. And I don't think you can, you know, put the genie back in the bottle on that. You know, the society is more awakened. It is more conscious of sort of government corruption. It's more demanding. Some of that has moved to the local level. So we see actually, because sort of going after the leader is a bit difficult, but they're going after local leaders, municipal leaders asking for change. So we're seeing very interesting ways that now these Arab communities are actually asking and demanding for change. But they're doing it in a more, let's say, discreet way. And not crossing those new red lines that have been placed on them. But I don't think that awakening is gone. It's very much there. It's just you have to look for it in new ways. You know, there's a great term. A wonderful political anthropologist pointed out called everyday protests, which is, you know, what you see across the region are people taking protests in their own way. They're not going into, you know, squares in the same way. We have, for example, in Saudi Arabia, you know, women who are fed up with the sort of patriarchal system, taking their black robe, which is called the abaya, and turning it inside out. It's the sort of really silent protest that, you know, goes under the radar. But if you search for it, it's everywhere. And that, I think, is really remarkable. It's obviously a little more difficult. [chuckle] You know, it's a lot easier to measure people in a square than it is to sort of find these everyday protests. But I think for those of us who study the region, you see it and it's really quite remarkable. And I don't think you can put that awakening back again, like the genie, the bottle.

MATT GALLOWAY: Bessma, it's great to talk to you, as always. Thank you very much.

BESSMA MOMANI: Thank you,.

MATT GALLOWAY: Bessma Momani is a professor of political science at the University of Waterloo. Next week, we continue our special series on the legacy of the Arab Spring ten years later. On Monday, I'll speak with Nahlah Ayed, who covered the uprising in Tahrir Square, and has been speaking with activists who took part then about the lasting impact in Egypt. And then on Tuesday, speaking of the diaspora. We'll speak with a Syrian revolutionary who now lives here in Canada. We know that music often plays a pivotal role in revolutions. That was, of course, true for the Arab Spring. So we'll leave you this morning with the mesmerizing, majestic voice of the great late Egyptian singer Umm Kulthum. This is her classic 1964 song, "Enta Omri", or "You Are You Are My Life". I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to "The Current". Take care. And we'll talk to you on Monday.

[Music: "Enta Omri" by Umm Kulthum]

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January 22, 2020 Episode Transcript

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