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The Current Transcript for January 21, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

MAN: Daily mortality is increasing, if the trends persist, to between 50 and 100 deaths per day between now and the end of February.

MATT GALLOWAY: That's a grim outlook for Ontario, which has struggled to keep covid from spreading. Couple that with frustration across the country and an interruption in the supply of vaccines, and the arrival of a much more contagious variant of the virus, and anxiety is high. In 30 minutes, a close look at where we're at in this pandemic with a man whose job it is to predict what might be coming next. Also, this morning, the health reporter André Picard on why the vaccines aren't coming sooner and whether there's anything anyone can do about that. And later,

MAN: This one's really got something valuable this time. He's got a purse.

MATT GALLOWAY: The he in question there is a monkey, a monkey that steals things, and then barters with you to let it go. In an hour, a Canadian researcher on what these creatures are up to and what we can learn from studying them. We begin this morning, though, by kicking off a road trip, speaking with Canadians about how this pandemic has changed their lives? The RV's gas tank is full. We've got snacks in the fridge, and we're starting in Gander, Newfoundland. Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. This is "The Current".

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Canada’s Road Ahead: Gander's famous airport

Guests: Reg Wright, Percy Farwell

MATT GALLOWAY: Today, we are starting a new series on "The Current". It is called "Canada's Road Ahead". Like Terry Fox's Marathon of Hope, we will follow the Trans-Canada Highway, or close to it. And each week, we'll pull into a small town, virtually, unfortunately, to speak with Canadians about how they are coping with COVID-19 and what the road ahead might look like. We're kicking things off on The Rock in beautiful Gander, Newfoundland. And like all good road trips, first things first, I need some coffee.

MAN: Just the coffee today? [the sounds of a till ringing up].

WOMAN: Yes, please.

MARLENE BISHOP: Hi, I'm Marlene Bishop. I'm the operator/owner of the Gander Bread Box here in Gander.

STEVE BISHOP: I'm Steve Bishop, I'm Marlene's lesser half. [both chuckle] And I am the baker, one of the bakers. Marlene's the other baker. She does the cookies, and I do the bread. We just celebrated our 10th anniversary in December, so we were riding on a bit of a high. And then the lockdown came down, everything closed. We stayed open, but not anywhere near full capacity. So for about a week, I was quite panicked, thinking that we might lose it.

MARLENE BISHOP: Well, you know, you're watching your your bank account dwindle and dwindle. And you're thinking, how are you going to do this? And, you know, you've got you still got the bills to pay. And, you know, we were... we were definitely worried. We stuck through the first week with the staff and that. But then we realized that we couldn't keep our staff on. It was a good thing at the time the government rolled out the CERB. So as business owners who feel very responsible for our team, we didn't want them to be left out. So, as a result, we ended up laying everybody off.

[a drink sloshes as it is poured]

STEVE BISHOP: When the restrictions eased up, we get a lot busier than I expected we were going to. People just got back out and wanted to do things. And our customers were amazing. So the community and surrounding areas just really, really had our backs.

MARLENE BISHOP: I have one of my customers, he said, I want ten loaves of multigrain bread. He said, and I want you to put your tag on it. He said, because I'm giving that away. And he hands me a hundred dollar bill, and he walks out the door. And this is the kind of thing that was happening. I had a lot of people, they were buying two loaves of bread, they ended up buying four loaves of bread, and they were just paying it forward. And all those little things helped along the way, for sure.

STEVE BISHOP: It's actually the things that are looming right now are kind of scary. When you look at the airport, Nav Canada, Nav Canada in particular right now, with all the projected layoffs that have been given. We've huge support from huge customer base from there. And then, look at the fact that 30-plus jobs are on the block at the moment. It's going to have a huge effect on every business in the community.

MARLENE BISHOP: During the pandemic, we had a small contract with the airport where we would supply some sandwiches and stuff, and there's no activity at the airport now. So we've lost that kind of business, even just on the one person that, you know, works for Nav Canada who's now laid off. I mean, they're going to really consider where they're going to spend their money. It will have an effect on us.

STEVE BISHOP: Logan, you want a medium roast two-and-two?

LOGAN: Yeah.

STEVE BISHOP: You need toast or anything today?

LOGAN: I'll have a sandwich.

STEVE BISHOP: Breakfast sandwich?

LOGAN: Bacon, egg and cheese.

STEVE BISHOP: You want mayo on it?

LOGAN: Oh, yes. Yeah.

STEVE BISHOP: You got you figured out. There's a light at the end of the tunnel. It might be a longer tunnel than we hope for, and the light might not be that bright right now, but it's there.

REPORTER: Where do you find hope?

MARLENE BISHOP: In my customers. Yeah. And I... T[chuckle] we're very fortunate to have the love of our customers. [beginning to cry] And I get choked up when I say that because they're a family. When people come through this door, I know a little bit about them. You don't be in this business for 11 years and not have people a part of your life. And they give me a lot of hope. Yeah!

[The till rings up and chimes].

MARLENE BISHOP: Done! Thank you, Love! Have a great day!

MATT GALLOWAY: Marlene and Steve Bishop run the Ghandour Bread Box. Now, if you aren't a regular at the Bread Box, chances are you're still familiar with Ghandour. On September 11th, when planes were forced to land, 38 were guided by Gander's air traffic control into Gander International Airport. Thousands of passengers were welcomed. A story that many of us know thanks to the musical "Come From Away". And as you heard from Marlene and Steve, this iconic aviation community is facing hard times. Reg Wright is the president and CEO of the Ghandour International Airport. Reg, good morning.

REG WRIGHT: Good morning, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: How important is air travel to Gander?

REG WRIGHT: It's absolutely critical. Everyone here, you know, has some jet fuel running through their veins. I think it accounts for about one in five jobs. And, of course, when you see what's happened with the pandemic over the last year, you can appreciate that we we have a pretty, pretty sizeable exposure in terms of job loss, lost business and other negative impacts.

MATT GALLOWAY: So describe for me what the Gander Airport would look like today compared to, say, a year ago?

REG WRIGHT: Yeah, I mean, Gander's a smaller market, of course. It serves about 100,000 people in beautiful central Newfoundland. But, you know, a year ago today, there'd be, you know, we'll have 12 flights a day. And now, we're down to two. And there'll be people coming and going, community workers coming and going, people taking... startingto plan winter escapes. And right now, it's very much I tell people it's like being a night watchman at a museum. It's quite empty. There's been a sizeable job loss at the airport. The ticket counters are largely empty. The most active people here are generally the cleaners.

MATT GALLOWAY: I'd heard you describe it as a bit like hanging on by a fingernail on the side of a cliff.

REG WRIGHT: Yeah, we've been like that since... it's been an agonizing year watching the service withdraw. And then, you know, in December, we'd gone from nine daily Air Canada flights to four destinations to a single daily flight to Halifax. And, you know, we were hoping against hope that we could retain it. And we got the news that as of this Friday, that's being discontinued as well.

MATT GALLOWAY: What impact is that going to have on people in Gander when that... Air Canada has pulled all of its routes in and out of that airport?

REG WRIGHT: Yeah, I think the impact functionally and psychologically is sizeable. You'll appreciate when you live in a remote community and an island destination that's very trade-dependent and just how important it is to have daily national service to mainland Canada. Without it, you're not really in the game. This is a massive challenge for us to navigate going forward. And I hate to say it. I've always felt like our little airport was built for battle, we'll always find a way to remain solvent. But it begs the question on the other side, if you don't have that daily service for your residents, you know, what's the point?

MATT GALLOWAY: It's interesting that you say there's a psychological blow to that as well. I mean, tell me more about that, what it means to people because obviously there's an economic element if one in five people are working there. But psychologically, what does that mean when Air Canada pulls up stakes?

REG WRIGHT: Well, I think one is just the dissolution of such a long-standing relationship. Air Canada inaugurated service in May of 1942. Gander Airport was then the Newfoundland airport, Air Canada was known as Trans-Canada Airlines. So they've serviced our market before Newfoundland was part of Canda. And you know, the longest interruption in service that we saw was the days following the 9/11... when, you know, all air service was closed. So, you know, we're long-term friends. And, you know, sometimes the relationship can be fractious. And sometimes, we didn't think we were serviced at a level that we wanted to. But they've stuck with us through a lot of bumps. But I'm you know, I guess the pandemic was, you know, a bump too high to climb.

MATT GALLOWAY: How frustrating is it for you? I mean, this is out of your control. And there might be that long relationship but Air Canada would say this is a business decision. People aren't flying. And they're worried. I mean, they've made, you know, the case against, for example, quarantines being as long as they are. They say that they need to do this. But for you, I mean, knowing the airport, how frustrating is it that there's nothing you can do about this?

REG WRIGHT: It's been utterly agonizing. And I think, you know, the ancient Greeks define misery is trying to control that which you can't personally control. And I think they were talking about mortality. But I have to tell you, being in a leadership position at a place like this, and to know that your future to a lot to a large extent depends on the the policy and support that's going to be offered by a couple levels of government is a very scary place to be. And it doesn't matter what kind of business you run, it couldn't be a sort of a community-based, not for profit like we are. But you really want to be able to pull levers and do the things you can yourself to solve your problems. And I'll continue to try to do that. The only thing I'll say with an airport is that they're essential. So, you know, we've stayed open, but it's not for commercial reasons at all. There's no reason commercially to be open. We're open to provide essential services during the pandemic, many of them health care, the movement of essential goods and people. You talk about medivac, aerial water fighting. And we put into place a very aggressive austerity plan. But, you know, you don't save your way out of a revenue problem. I think the stakes are what's most worrying because you'll know.. and Canada's such a long, linear, beautiful country, but it's so sparsely located. So it's not just about, you know, who does Air Canada or West Jet Service? I mean, in our home that is Canada, aviation is is a load-bearing wall that holds it all together. So as we look at this critical issue, it's really about nation-building. It's not just about what support can we provide to airlines and what role will they play in the economic recovery? It's like how important are these bonds that hold us together?

MATT GALLOWAY: How are you doing in all of this? I mean, this is... it's tough for everybody. You mentioned being in a leadership position, and you have people that rely on you and rely on the airport for employment. How are you doing in all this?

REG WRIGHT: [chuckling] That's a good question. Well, let me put it this way. I always try to keep some context in this and say myself and my loved ones have retained our health through all this. So I'll be grateful for that. But I'd be lying if I told you... my wife said to me, you know, over Christmas, she's like, 2020 was not the best of you. And I think, like many Canadians, you know, [chuckle] you're kind of you're lonely or angry or more frustrated. [laughing] In some cases, fatter. But I think I'm all the above. So it's been very trying. I try to navigate the stress the best you can. But it's been been a tough year, not just for myself. I know there are many people in a much worse position. But certainly, it's been forgettable. I was glad to see the year go behind us into the rear-view Mirror.

MATT GALLOWAY: You and me both. Reg, let me bring in another guest, and somebody I'm sure you know well. Percy Farwell is the mayor of Gander. Mayor, good morning to you.

PERCY FARWELL: Good morning, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: We heard Reg talk a bit about that. But from your perspective, as the civic leader, how important is a healthy airport to a healthy Gander economy?

PERCY FARWELL: It's vitally important. This community would not exist without the airport. It's one of those rare situations where, you know, a community exists to support an airport and not the other way around. Unlike the image that many people have of smaller communities in Newfoundland and Labrador, we are not an outport. We are an airport. So it's, you know, a vital concern to us. You know, our economy and our culture is dependent on movement and congregation of people and access, and connexion to the rest of the world. And what we're seeing is serious restrictions on all of that.

MATT GALLOWAY: And it's not just Air Canada pulling out some flights or all the flights now. There's Nav Canada, which has the air traffic control station there at Gander. And they've announced, Nav Canada has, that layoffs are coming soon as well. It's just pain upon misery, I suppose.

PERCY FARWELL: Absolutely. I mean, you know, as I said, we're an aviation-based community. We have a major presence of Nav Canada here. You know, people that live in our community control all the traffic, the transits, the North Atlantic. And, of course, in the absence of passengers, not as many aircraft are transiting the North Atlantic. And consequently, not as many air traffic controllers are required. So we've been hit very hard from that perspective in terms of employment and so on. Nav Canada in a couple of different rounds of cuts over the last number of months, have removed 51 positions from the Gander Air Control Centre, which probably represents six to seven million dollars worth of wages in our little community. So, and you can imagine the trickle down from that loss. So it is significant. We have a local company here that was providing, you know, contracted to provide flights to smaller routes within Atlantic Canada, contracted with Air Canada. And those routes have been long since cancelled during the pandemic. And that means for this relatively small company here in our community, the loss of a 37-million dollar a year contract, and the constriction of the workforce that goes along with that. So that's all of, you know, serious concern to us, obviously. And then there's the whole impact on the attractiveness of the area to come and live in or do business in when you really don't see much, much way to get in and out of it and so on. And to provide health services when we don't have ready access to the region for securing locums that are critical to maintaining services.

MATT GALLOWAY: Is that something that you worry about? I mean, the attractiveness of your community, the fact that if those jobs aren't there, people may not move there, but they also may not stay there?

PERCY FARWELL: That's right. I mean, you know, we pride ourselves on being a vibrant, progressive community. And this certainly dampens... threatens to dampen that sort of view of our community. We're determined not to let that happen. But that's I guess that's just this part of the job that's at hand for all of us, you know? We're all doing our part here. We're following the rules. We're flattening the curve. We're lining up to get vaccinated. And because of that, I think we enjoy a certain level of personal freedom here in Newfoundland and labrador currently that is the envy of some other parts of the country as a result. But what we're seeing here is sort of an unravelling in terms of the connectivity with the rest of the country. We're witnessing an unravelling of the national fabric. And our province and our community and region is becoming increasingly isolated.

MATT GALLOWAY: Reg, when you hear about that, about the unravelling of the fabric, there are people who call... and the airlines will do that themselves, call for help. And look for bailouts, look for assistance from government. Do you think the people understand the relationship potentially between helping those big airline corporations and small airports like the one that you are running?

REG WRIGHT: No. No, I don't at all. I think they view the request for aid from airlines through a very specific lens. And, you know, this is not a condemnation of Canada, but hating airlines is sort of a national sport. [Matt chuckles] You know, somewhere around between hockey and lacrosse are. It's just... I don't think it's because they lost their bags. But, you know, some of the perception there can be... Can be difficult. And I think to some extent, is kind of impeding the federal government's ability to provide a meaningful aid package. You know, I would rather.... I'd reposit the question is not why should the Air Canada, West Jet and others get aid? It's like, why shouldn't they? I mean, if you look at what's been received, Lufthansa Group, KLM, Air France, they're they've gotten 11-billion. American, Delta, United got 11-billion. You know, and what we're seeing here is you're seeing these dots just wiped off the map. And most of these, you know, we're at one time considered sacrilegious. I mean, losing services in vital places like, Yuokn, Cape Breton Island, St John, Fredericton, New Brunswick — a capital. So, I mean, this is... the mayor, this is not hyperbole what he's saying. I mean, it is an unravelling of the fabric that holds us together.

MATT GALLOWAY: I guess part of the resistance might be you mentioned losing your bags, that people get their backs up when they hear that you're going to bailout, you know, the same company that would charge a thirty dollars for a sandwich, or still has your money for the trip that you couldn't go on last year because the flights were cancelled because of a pandemic.

REG WRIGHT: No, no, I understand that. I mean, and I'm in line like everyone else. I've got seven thousand dollars tied up. And I wanted to take my young kids to Disney World. I got a feeling by the time I get to go, I'm going to be taking them and their grandchildren. [Matt laughs] But I do understand that. But I think, you know, in the same way that we've all gone and said, listen, I'm going to wear a mask, I'm not going to congregate in groups, I'm going to limit my family exposure. We've all done things for the greater good during this pandemic. And I think people will have a hard time look at me and saying that, you know, it's not in the greater good that airlines be viable on the other side of this.

MATT GALLOWAY: One of the reasons why we are having these conversations, we're going to kind of weave our way across the country, and hopefully, do some of this in actual real life, and get out on the road. Is that in the midst of all of this, we want to hear about the hope that Canadians have for better days ahead. What do you find hope in when it comes to the business in Gander at the airport, but also the people who rely on those businesses? Mr. Mayor, I'll start with you.

PERCY FARWELL: Well, I think what there is always hope. There has to be. There has to be hope. I mean, that's one thing about our culture here in Newfoundland and Labrador is, you know, we've become rather accustomed to dealing with difficult circumstances. And we have survived. And, you know, through our ingenuity and our willingness to support each other and to find that light at the end of the tunnel.

MATT GALLOWAY: What about for you, Reg? I mean, you walk through that airport, and it should be bustling, and in the morning you go and as you say, it's a bit of a ghost town, an empty museum. Where are you finding hope there?

REG WRIGHT: Yeah, I agree with what the mayor said. I've really had to work very hard at trying to conjure hope because there haven't been a lot of signs of it of recently. But this will become a footnote in our history at one point. And to echo the mayor's comments, yeah, Newfoundlanders got a couple of characteristics that I don't know that may be, you know, Canadian more so than being from Newfoundland. But I mean, people are tough her. Tougher than a galvanized nail. We're used to hard living, and we're pretty resourceful. I mean, we most people here fancy themselves as being able to put the tail, even the squid. So we will, with some help, we will find a way to the other side, and brighter days are ahead.

MATT GALLOWAY: It is a beautiful part of the country, and I wish you the very best. And I can't wait to get back out there. It's great to speak with you both. Thank you very much.

PERCY FARWELL: Thanks.

REG WRIGHT: Appreciate it, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: Take care. Bye-bye.

PERCY FARWELL: Take care now. Bye-bye.

MATT GALLOWAY: Reg Wright is the CEO of the Gander International Airport. And Percy Farwell is the mayor of Gander, Newfoundland. That is our first stop across the country on our "Canada's Road Ahead" special series. Next week, we're rolling into Antigonish, Nova Scotia. Your CBC News is next. And then,

MAN: If we do hit the five percent level of growth, which is quite possible, we'll be looking at over 20,000 cases a day by the middle of February. And if we get into a darker situation with seven per cent growth, where actually, we have seen some days of seven per cent growth, we'll be looking at over 40,000 cases per day.

MATT GALLOWAY: Bleak projections there from Steini Brown. The co-chair of Ontario's COVID-19 Science Advisory Table joins me when we come back, to talk about vaccines, virus variants and what might be ahead. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to "The Current". Stay with us.

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COVID-19 challenges in Canada

Guests: Steini Brown, André Picard

MATT GALLOWAY: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. And you're listening to "The Current".

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MATT GALLOWAY: Still to come, Canadian researchers on what motivates theving macaque monkeys. But first, adding up the numbers in Ontario.

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MATT GALLOWAY: COVID case numbers have dropped this week in Ontario, but the number of patients in ICU continues to cause real concern. Right now, 395 people with COVID-19 are in intensive care units in that province. Nearly 300 are on a ventilator. The province is under a stay-at-home order, but there are still many questions about whether enough is being done to stop the spread of the virus? Steini Brown is co-chair of Ontario's COVID-19 Science Advisory Table. He's also the dean of the Dalai Lama School of Public Health at the University of Toronto. Steini Brown, good morning.

STEINI BROWN: Good morning.

MATT GALLOWAY: We're almost a year into this, and there are still thousands of new cases of COVID a day across Canada. But the numbers, as I said in the introduction, seem to be trending down. As a nation, I mean, just broadly, we'll talk about Ontario in a moment. But from your perspective as a nation, where are we at now in this pandemic? Is this the beginning of the end? The end of the beginning? Somewhere in between?

STEINI BROWN: I think it's really hard to tell. This is a disease that looks like it's plateauing, and we've seen in other jurisdictions it'll just take off again. I hope we're at the end or the beginning of the end. And we're going to see that nice sort of decrease in cases. And a steady decrease down to a low level that means that we can get back to the way [chuckle] that we want to live our lives. But if we kind of let off the pressure right now, I'm afraid we're going to be back up on a climb.

MATT GALLOWAY: One of the things that really concerns people in the province of Ontario, as I mentioned, is that despite a drop in cases, the drop is not reflected in the province's intensive care unit capacity. Why is that the case?

STEINI BROWN: Well, that's exactly the nature of sort of how the cases relate to, I say, ICUs or death. You know, we get the cases, those cases progress to people who are sick, who need admission to hospital, who need intensive care. And, unfortunately, for a number of them, progress on the death. There's a long tail here. So even if you see a drop this week, you're not going to see it in cases. You're not going to see that drop in ICU admissions or in death for at least a week or two or more.

MATT GALLOWAY: Two weeks ago, you were projecting that Ontario could see perhaps as many as 40,000 new cases a day by mid-February. Are we out of the woods for that?

STEINI BROWN: I'm very hopeful that we are.

MATT GALLOWAY: And what would lead you to believe that?

STEINI BROWN: Well, seeing that the cases are starting to flatten out and maybe even come down a little bit is the first sort of indication that we're not going to see that at least by the end of... The of the end of February. The other thing is, I'm hopeful that we are going to have enough surveillance of the new variants of concern that can spread so very, very quickly and be able to get on top of that as well so that we don't see that type of explosive growth like we saw in the United Kingdom.

MATT GALLOWAY: Let me ask you about that variant. The province's associate medical officer of health, Dr. Barbara Yaffe, raised concerns around the community spread of the UK COVID-19 variant. In Barrie, Ontario, preliminary tests from a long-term care home there showed that a variant could be responsible for an outbreak that infected something like 193 people. Nineteen people have already died. How concerned are you about this variant or other variants?

STEINI BROWN: So I think we have to be very concerned about these new variants. And we need to be able to make sure that we're doing enough surveillance of the disease to be able to identify them quickly, identify the new variants, understand how they relate to vaccines and other issues. But they're very concerning. One of the results we presented last week, which I think puts the potential threat in very clear relief, was work done out of Queen's University that showed our current doubling time, at least last week, for a number of cases was about 35 to 40 days. If the new U.K. variant sort of takes hold, that doubling time goes down to ten days. And so that's a vast difference in the rate of growth of the cases.

MATT GALLOWAY: So there's been a narrative that suggests that perhaps it's not just the U.K. Variant, but there are other ones as well. But that that could be the dominant strain of COVID-19 come this spring. Is that realistic?

STEINI BROWN: Yes. Yes, it is. And the other thing is, as we see more and more cases, there's a good chance we're going to see more and more variants. And we're going to have to be able to adapt them. You know, either by how we're using the traditional sort of public health interventions about distancing, masking and really aggressive case and contact tracing. But also, how we deal with things like vaccine escapees when they when they arise?

MATT GALLOWAY: In that context, is it safe to open schools, do you think?

STEINI BROWN: I think the decision about opening schools has to be taken very, very carefully. There's a big spike, for instance, in Ontario, at least up until recently, a big spike in test positivity amongst younger people. And we know that children and young adults can actually catch and spread the disease as easily as anyone else. So if we have a situation where schools are open, kids are either during the school day or after school, kind of mixing and picking up and spreading the disease and then spreading it to other people, that could be very dangerous. And so it has to be taken very, very carefully. I know everyone wants schools open, me included, but it has to be done very carefully and very thoughtfully.

MATT GALLOWAY: Given what you have been talking about, how concerned are you about the interruption that we are seeing already, but we're certainly going to see as of next week in the supply of vaccines?

STEINI BROWN: I think I'm concerned, as anyone else would be, it's a temporary interruption, though, and as long as we're very effective at increasing the supply of vaccine that we have over the medium term and really effective at getting that vaccine into people's arms, then I think we'll be OK.

MATT GALLOWAY: But if something like this, if this variant takes hold and it is as contagious as people have been saying, is it in some ways a race between the variant spreading and getting the vaccines, as you say, into the arms of Canadians?

STEINI BROWN: It is. And what you want to be able to do is slow down the spread of the disease as much as you can so that you have the advantage in that race.

MATT GALLOWAY: So what... well, continue. Sorry, go ahead!

STEINI BROWN: And unfortunately, although, I think everyone... they're not, in any way, a easy tool to deploy. That's why the public health interventions are so important.

MATT GALLOWAY: And so I was going to ask you about that. What measures would you like to see the province, but this goes beyond Ontario. I mean, it doesn't stay at a provincial border. What measures would you like to see implemented to help stop the spread of COVID-19 now, given where we're at right now in January?

STEINI BROWN: So, what you can do is you can look at the countries that have been successful in controlling the spread, really breaking, you know, that curve and getting it down under control. They've done longer lockdowns. They've done more intense lockdowns. They've had strong enforcement. But I think also, we know very clearly that we need to make sure that those lockdowns, those efforts to kind of control the spread of the disease also support people. It's really not fair, I think, to say you can't go... you know, you have to self-isolate. You have to stay at home. If you're in a home where it's hard to self-isolate, you know, if you don't have a room where you can go. If you're in a job where staying away from work for a day means that you lose a day's pay, I think, you know, it needs to be both stronger public health interventions, but stronger support for the people who are doing all the work that kind of allow our society to function.

MATT GALLOWAY: Let me ask you about the public health interventions first. Again, given the fact that the virus does not respect kind of borders. In those other jurisdictions, there were very severe lockdowns in terms of where you could go. Do you think that for the province of Ontario, for example, it should consider forming in some ways its own bubble, so that you can't travel, so that you can't bring the virus to other areas or the virus can't get into other areas?

STEINI BROWN: The Atlantic provinces, I think, did that very successfully in the first wave. So, yes.

MATT GALLOWAY: Without a measure like that, how long do you think something like this could drag on if you're not taking those strong restrictive steps to to limit the spread of the virus?

STEINI BROWN: Well, I think we've sort of seen already kind of what that looks like. Taking... you know, it's good to take the public health interventions. It's good that we're trying to control the spread of the disease. But without the strong interventions, you do see this continual sort of spread of the virus. And you've seen that through the fall in Ontario. You've seen a number of jurisdictions that have not kind of taken the stronger approaches that, say, Australia or some of the European countries took. So you can see this continue to sort of move along until we've got enough vaccine coverage to really halt the spread or bring it back down.

MATT GALLOWAY: Is this the advice that you're giving politicians right now in terms of what they should be thinking about and how they should tackle this second wave?

STEINI BROWN: So the same advice we give or the same presentation that we give on TV is the advice that we give to the politicians.

MATT GALLOWAY: Are you satisfied with the province's response to that second wave?

STEINI BROWN: If we want to control cases, I think we can do more. And if we want to make sure that we're actually approaching the pandemic in a way that builds equity rather than taking away equity, I think we can do more.

MATT GALLOWAY: And so in addition to sort of a travel bubble, what else would you want to see? What specifically would you want to see?

STEINI BROWN: I think that needs to be more support and more engagement with communities where you see a really high risk of exposure. And these are the communities where you don't have good access to suitable housing. It's communities where you've got a high proportion of the population working in essential work. Its communities where you've got a lot of multigenerational housing. I think that there could be a lot more there.

MATT GALLOWAY: And in that support, people have pointed to paid sick leave in particular. You've been outspoken on this. Why do you think there needs to be more paid sick leave? And how important is it in the fight against COVID-19?

STEINI BROWN: So I think you never want to put someone in a position where they have to choose between paying their rent and going to work. Or between paying the rent and going to work or staying at home and isolating. You never want to put someone in a situation where they have to sort of stop for a second and say, do I go get the test? And if the test is positive, can I actually afford to stay home? And so, I think that's a kind of critical trade-off that you don't want to put people or require people to confront. Are you've seen a number of jurisdictions of have sort of immediately kind of put in sick leave for both the people who are isolating, but also their immediate contacts. Sweden is an example of that.

MATT GALLOWAY: Why do you think there's such resistance to that? If it's as simple as you say, that people can't afford to stay home and so they go to work, and they might be sick, or they go to work, and they get sick, why is the resistance to that, do you think?

STEINI BROWN: I don't have an answer to that.

MATT GALLOWAY: Are you frustrated when you make that argument that there is resistance to it?

STEINI BROWN: [chuckling] Look, we provide the evidence we provide to try to inform what's going on. We're not the elected officials. So, you know, we can be frustrated. But our job is to keep on trying to put as much evidence and as much data out as we can. And, you know, we rely on a team of over 50 scientists now from across the province, for the most part, work as volunteers to do that. So we just we're committed to the evidence. We're committed to transparency. And we're committed to keeping on updating stuff as much as we can. But, you know, we don't bear the burden of decisions. And we... I think we all recognize that.

MATT GALLOWAY: Do you think that the second wave of COVID-19 has been politicized in a way that perhaps the first wave wasn't?

STEINI BROWN: I think that there is a false dialogue going on about a trade-off between health and the economy. And I think that's what kind of really frustrates a lot of the decision making, and makes it hard for people at times to take stronger action. It's not a trade-off. We know the jurisdictions that have taken strong, very effective action against the virus are the ones that have gotten their societies back open again the quickest. It's, you know, you either do the hard work early on, or you do it late. And it's harder, and it takes longer if you do it late.

MATT GALLOWAY: I guess the question when you say it's a false diolouge because there are people who, I mean, they're hanging on by their fingernails in terms of the health of their business or their livelihoods. And they would say, well, it's not a false dialogue. I mean, this, to me, is an existential crisis as well. What would you say to them?

STEINI BROWN: I'd say that's entirely true right now. It is a question about how quickly you take action and how strongly you take action so that you can get back to work as quick as possible. I really appreciate that doesn't do anything for the individuals whose businesses are really threatened. And I think, you know, if you think about the importance of small business. You think of the importance of all the people who work in our community to our economy, we've got to make sure they stay whole as well. Again, I don't think it's trade-off one way or the other. I think you need to do the strong public health interventions, get the disease under control as quickly as you can, get those businesses reopen. And while they're closed, make sure that they're kept whole.

MATT GALLOWAY: What are you most concerned about right now?

STEINI BROWN: I'm most concerned about fatigue with the public health interventions. It's not easy. No one enjoys things like stay-at-home orders. No one, I think, finds them easy to tolerate. There's consequences in terms of mental health. There's consequences in terms of the economy that you've already talked about, survival of business. And it's hard sometimes, particularly when you know you're dealing with these sorts of big population health issues. Even when you saw, say, in the United States, a inauguration process that started with commemoration of the 400,000 people that have died. It's just hard sometimes to wrap your head around the size of numbers like that. And so I think people get fatigued, and it's understandable why they do. But it's, I think, also important that people stay, you know, particularly, you know, all the people who already adhere and are already working on this that they stay the course.

MATT GALLOWAY: I guess, in that fatigue. Just finally, we keep hearing that there might be light at the end of the tunnel. And you're saying that you hope that this is in some ways the beginning of the end. What would you need to see to suggest that we could start to think about life getting back to normal at some point in time?

STEINI BROWN: So it's really this trade-off between the coverage of the vaccine and the overall level of cases. And so as we start to see that level of cases consistently go down day after day after day, as you start to see... As we see, you know, a small number of the communities in Ontario, very, very strong sort of effective control. I see that spread. You can see the communities get back to normal. You've always got to look, though, at a number of things. You've got to look at strong testing rates. You've got to look at what percent of those tests are positive, and you've got to look at the overall number of cases. And as those all sort of kind of start to stabilize in a way that's going to come down, I think that's positive. The other thing I think we really need in place is strong surveillance on the disease, even after we start to push it down. We need to be able to have that way of looking at how the disease is progressing, looking at how those new variants are emerging and evolving so that you can really keep control over the long run.

MATT GALLOWAY: I'm really glad to have the opportunity to speak with you and really appreciate you taking some time. Steini, thank you.

STEINI BROWN: Thank you.

MATT GALLOWAY: Steini Brown, co-chair of Ontario's COVID-19 Science Advisory Table. He's also the dean of the Dalai Lama School of Public Health at the University of Toronto. The arrival of a vaccine was supposed to be light at the end of the tunnel. Now, a major hurdle in Canada's vaccine rollout. Pfizer has announced that we as a nation will not be receiving any shipments of that vaccine next week as the company tries to increase overall production capacity. André Picard is The Globe and Mail's health columnist. Andre, good morning.

André Picard: Good morning.

MATT GALLOWAY: Just briefly, what did you make of what you heard from Steini Brown there? His job in some ways is to to predict where the province of Ontario might be going and offer suggestions to leadership as to how to guide that path. What did you make of what you heard from him?

André Picard: Well, I think, you know, from Dr. Brown, we always get very thoughtful analysis. And it would be great if, in a province like Ontario, that advice was followed to a T. You know, there's always the politics that come into. It gets watered down. And I think you can hear some of that frustration in his voice. He said, well, we're there to offer advice, but others have to follow through. But I think there's an undercurrent of a bit of frustration there.

MATT GALLOWAY: There's a lot of frustration around the vaccine as well. Canada was scheduled to receive about 200,000 vaccine doses from Pfizer next week. Now it's zero. How big of a setback is that for the vaccine rollout and our fight against this?

André Picard: I think it's a hiccup. You know, this whole vaccination is a marathon, and this is kind of a having a cramp at maybe kilometre five. And the question to me is, how do we recover from this? I think we have to focus on when we get vaccine, getting it into people promptly and not just get hung up on this reality. We knew there were going to be problems. There's always supply issues with everything. So you have to adjust.

MATT GALLOWAY: There are questions as to whether perhaps this is a sign that Canada has invested too much in Pfizer? And whether maybe other vaccines might get approval in the coming weeks and months that could help, you know, close that gap? Is that likely, do you think?

André Picard: No, I think the reality is the whole world wants these vaccines. And they're trying... the companies are juggling to try and get them to, first of all, those who have contracts and then in the order of contracts, who's paying, et cetera. So people are looking... you know, we have contracts with Pfizer, Moderna. We have a whole bunch of contracts. The next one up is AstraZeneca. That hasn't been approved yet. It will be approved in short order. But the reality is people have to realize, even if it's approved today, we won't get AstraZeneca vaccines until at least April. They have to be come off the line. So these are not issues that can be solved immediately or overnight in any way.

MATT GALLOWAY: In the meantime, there are politicians who would like them to be solved immediately and certainly overnight. Take a listen to the premier of Ontario, Doug Ford.

DOUG FORD: Nothing is more important than... than getting these vaccines. And if I was in his shoes, I'm sure he is doing it, but I'd be on that phone call every single day. I'd be up that guy's ying-yang so far with a firecracker he wouldn't wouldn't know what hit him from Pfizer.

MATT GALLOWAY: André Picard, is there anything that the premier of Ontario, Doug Ford, or the premier of Alberta, Jason Kenney, who wants provincial lawyers to look at perhaps procuring the province's own supply? Is there anything that they can do about this?

André Picard: I don't think so. Other than the bombast, the politics. I think, you know, the reality is what would they... they haven't offered any concrete solutions of how things would change if they were up people's ying-yangs as Premier Ford said so eloquently, I think, you know, the reality is there's a supply chain problem. It's one that's really profound in Canada. It has to be resolved after this pandemic for good. There's a reality. It's only so much vaccine can be produced. So I think their time would be better spent planning for what's going to happen when we do get vaccine. And we're going to have a lot of it, but not till April. And then, you know, maybe a little bit more self reflection on what they're not doing well, instead of just criticizing other levels of government.

MATT GALLOWAY: You wrote... and part of this is about getting the vaccine, but it's also, as Steini Brown was saying, get it into the arms of Canadians. You wrote this week about vaccine hesitancy amongst health care workers. Why does that exist in that field?

André Picard: Well, I think the reality is health care workers are like the general population. There's a whole, broad range of views, of fears, et cetera. So there's just a lot of, you know, it's kind of normal for people who have different views. We think it's much more unfortunate with health care workers because you really want them vaccinated. But then there's deeper, I think, social issues, employment issues, a lot of this is about control. You know, nurses, personal support workers are very frustrated with their work conditions. They feel they have no control. And saying no to the vaccine is not the best thing to do. It's not the smartest thing to do. But it's a way of sort of having agency if they know you're not going to tell me to do one more thing. So I think this is a very complex issue. And I think we have a lot of people saying, well, let's force them, let's find them, let's fire them. I don't think those punitive measures are useful. I think we need more carrot than we need stick in this case.

MATT GALLOWAY: OK, so tell me more about that. I mean, again, our friend Brian Goldman, Dr. Brian Goldman, explored this a little bit on "White Coat, Black Art" this weekend as well. One of the suggestions might be from people to make vaccines mandatory for this group. You say that that's not a wise idea. Why?

André Picard: It's not our tradition. There's some question about legally, can it be upheld? I think the we have to try everything else first. So laws should be the last resort. The other thing is you can talk about firing people, say if you can't if you don't get a vaccine, you can't work. We have dire shortages of workers, nurses, personal support workers. They are in really, really desperate shortages. So we... we can't afford to be flippant about this. And just say if you don't get a vaccine, you can't work. We have to figure out ways to convince them this is the right thing to do. And there's lots of evidence, there's lots of research, that overcoming vaccine hesitancy can be done fairly easily if you you put your mind to it.

MATT GALLOWAY: And so what would the carrot look like in that scenario?

André Picard: Well, I think the carrot looks like communicating better, especially to racialized minority communities. Get on things like WhatsApp. You know, some communities use this. There's a lot of misinformation there. Address their questions. Some places give bonuses. Instead of firing someone, give them 500 dollars to take the vaccine. For all the money we're spending on coronavirus response, that would be peanuts. So those are ways of doing it. You know, Dr. Samir Sinha, who you know well, has talked about why don't we just give people better work conditions and a lot of this other stuff will flow from that? Somebody feels good about themselves, they're going to be feel good about getting the vaccine and protecting themselves.

MATT GALLOWAY: Connects back a little bit to what Steini Brown was talking about in terms of the holistic approach to tackling this pandemic.

André Picard: Yeah, and we often forget this. All of these things are connected. We talk about these issues. In isolation, you know, we have to vaccinate. And we don't think about, well, what's the impact on these workers? Why are they scared? Do they have good reason to be scared. There's a lot of deeper questions here. It's not a simple issue.

MATT GALLOWAY: Always a pleasure to ask you about those deeper questions. Andre, thank you very much.

André Picard: Thank you.

MATT GALLOWAY: André Picard, health columnist for The Globe and Mail. Tomorrow, we are going to take a deeper look at how this virus is affecting the physical and mental health of kids and teenagers. We are looking for your questions. We have an expert panel here. They will be here with us tomorrow. And they will answer your questions, questions around, for example, screentime. Are your kids spending way more time than normal on screens? Are you concerned about that at all? Are you concerned about school safety? We're speaking with Steini Brown about whether it's safe to reopen schools or not? And he was very deliberate in his answer. Questions around isolation, and the long-term impacts of kids being stuck at home if they're not in school, perhaps not being able to see their friends, not being able to hug their friends. What are your questions about the impact of this pandemic on young people? You can email us. You can record your question through your voice memo app on your phone and email it to us: thecurrent@cbc.ca. Your kids could ask a question as well. Again, the email address is: thecurrent@cbc.ca. Or send us questions via Facebook or Twitter. We are: @TheCurrentCBC. And our expert guests will answer your questions about kids and the effect of this pandemic on them tomorrow on "The Current". Coming up after your regional update, we will talk about monkeys in Bali, known for swiping everything from glasses to phones and shoes. Canadian researchers say they found a method to the madness. Monkey business, coming up on "The Current" in 90 seconds. Stay with us.

Thieving monkeys barter for food to return things they've stolen, study

Guest: Jean-Baptiste Leca

MATT GALLOWAY: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to "The Current".

[Sound: A crowd of people speaking Indonesian]

MATT GALLOWAY: This next interview is about thieving monkeys. Yes, I thought that might get your attention. [laughing] The sound that you're listening to is a video that shows what those monkeys do. It's been filmed at a temple in Bali. The monkey has stolen someone's glasses. People are trying to get the glasses back by offering the monkey all sorts of kinds of food, eggs, nuts, bananas. The monkey bats it all the way, until a particularly juicy cucumber is offered. And then finally, the monkey trades his beloved glasses for the snack. It turns out this is pretty classic behaviour for macaque monkeys. Jean-Baptiste Leca just authored a new study about this. He filmed this video and is a primatologist and psychologist at the University of Lethbridge. Jean-Baptiste, good morning.

JEAN-BAPTISTE LECA: Good morning.

MATT GALLOWAY: I watched these monkey videos yesterday. What's going on here? Why is the monkey stealing someone's glasses?

JEAN-BAPTISTE LECA: Well, these monkeys living around the Uluwatu temple in southern Bali are known to steal, more or less, valuable but non-edible objects from tourists. And then they hold on to these objects until they can exchange them for food with humans who, of course, really want their objects back. And they are willing to pay the monkeys some food to retrieve these objects.

MATT GALLOWAY: But the monkeys are very specific in terms of what they want. I mean, again, I described it a little bit there, but what goes on? The monkeys have the glasses, they're offered different things, and they sniff the food and then they either bat ut away, or they throw it away?

JEAN-BAPTISTE LECA: That's right. Well, let's describe the the first part of the behaviour if you don't mind?

MATT GALLOWAY: Yeah, of course, yeah!

JEAN-BAPTISTE LECA: So, first, adult monkeys, that's what our latest study showed, adult monkeys, because the young ones, the juvenile ones, are not so good at it. They have to learn how to do that. But adult monkeys have learned to preferentially select objects that are more likely to be exchanged for food like electronics or glasses over other objects that are less valuable for humans and typically not worth bartering like empty camera bags or old hats. So that's the robbing part of the behaviour, the stealing part. And then, second, our latest study showed that these monkeys seek to obtain either more food rewards or a more preferred food reward in exchange for a higher-valued object. But, of course, higher-valued for humans because, for the monkeys, prescription glasses or sunglasses or, you know, an old hat has no intrinsic value. It only acquires a value in the context of the bartering interaction with a human.

MATT GALLOWAY: And so the monkey is sitting on a rock wall, and it's chewing on the glasses. What are the higher value items that it's looking for?

JEAN-BAPTISTE LECA: Well, we established a scale of value for different objects. By the way, we call them tokens. I can maybe talk about that. We call them tokens because, again, they have no intrinsic value for the monkeys except in the context of the exchange. But on the basis of how often humans want to engage in a token reward bartering interaction, these monkeys, it seems, seem to have mapped their behaviours onto our own scale of value when it comes to objects. And you have low-valued tokens that are seldom bartered by humans, empty containers and accessories. Medium-valued token, often bartered by humans, like hats and shoes. And then high-valued tokens, almost always bartered by humans, glasses, electronics and wallets, mainly.

MATT GALLOWAY: And what do the monkeys get in exchange? Because, again, they're being very specific. They'll give up that higher value item, not for anything, not just for a banana, but for something else.

JEAN-BAPTISTE LECA: Yes, well, just as we did for the objects, the tokens, we established a scale of individual food preference. And some monkeys are into raw eggs. [slight chuckle] So that's a highly-prized food reward, particularly for adult males. You know, it's really protein-rich food. And other monkeys simply have different preferences. So for each monkey, we established a food preference, and we could tell which monkey prefer this or that food item.

MATT GALLOWAY: How did you end up coming to study thieving monkeys in Bali?

JEAN-BAPTISTE LECA: Well, I'm interested in non-human primate behaviour, monkey behaviour. And I'm a cultural primatologist, so I study social learning and culture in non-human animals. And the third result about our study is that these robbing and bartering behaviours are partly learned through observation between monkeys. And these behaviours have been maintained across generations of monkeys for at least 40 years in this population. So I look at this behaviour practice as a cultural behaviour.

MATT GALLOWAY: Tell me more about this. How did the monkeys learn to barter?

JEAN-BAPTISTE LECA: That's a good question. We're not entirely sure about the very beginning of this practice. Because I'm a cultural primatologist and I study other behaviours that have this social learning component, I'm hypothesizing, but again, we will have to dig further that there was an inventor at some point. So you could call this monkey on your monkey zero. There was an inventor, and this monkey started to rob one object, steal one object from the tourist. And then, the local temple staff was willing to engage in a bartering interaction, and the monkey got a food reward. And then, let's say the day after, the same monkey was more likely to replicate the same behaviour to obtain the same outcome. But then what happened next is something I'm really interested in. It's that this behaviour spread within the group. And we have some evidence that there is social influence between the monkeys in the expression of this behaviour.

MATT GALLOWAY: Is your sense that the monkeys can distinguish between the various items that they are taking? I mean, would a monkey know, the difference between an empty camera bag and a bag that has the camera still in it? Would a monkey know the difference between cheap sunglasses versus sunglasses that perhaps would cost more money?

JEAN-BAPTISTE LECA: I don't think I don't think they do. To answer your specific question, I don't think they do. But they seem to have a general sense of different types of objects, broadly speaking. So our results were obtained both from observational study but also a field experiment in which we presented a given monkey with a two-option choice situation in which the monkey had to choose two objects presented on the tray. The monkey had to choose between your average sunglasses and, let's say, a flip flop. And preferentially, the monkey, again, adult monkey, because juveniles are not so good at it, an adult monkey would preferentially, but not systematically, there is individual variation, pick up the sunglasses because they have learned that they can get more or preferred food reward for this type of object.

MATT GALLOWAY: What have you learned in studying this? What have you learnt about, I mean, it seems in some ways obvious, but the fact that they're able to do this, and that they're able to do it consistently, is fascinating. So what have you learned about monkey behaviour in studying this?

JEAN-BAPTISTE LECA: Well, our results indicate some form of robbing bartering pay maximization, which is suggestive of rudimentary economic decision making by monkeys, but that's not the first time this has been demonstrated. There are several species of non-human primates, monkeys and great apes, that have many of the cognitive abilities, symbolic abilities, computational abilities that are necessary to think economically and to produce economic behaviours. But so far, these abilities had only been demonstrated in the controlled settings of laboratory. Our research revealed for the first time that you can look at the roots of culturally-learned economic behaviour in free-ranging animals because these monkeys are free-ranging.

MATT GALLOWAY: Were you ever robbed while you were doing this research? I don't know whether you wear glasses or not, but --

JEAN-BAPTISTE LECA: I do.

MATT GALLOWAY: You do! Did the monkeys ever grab your glasses? [laughing]

JEAN-BAPTISTE LECA: Yes, of course. One time... a couple of times, actually. The joke was on me. Yes, they stole my prescription glasses. And thanks to the assistance of the local temple staff, and through a bartering interaction, of course, I got my eyeglasses back, yes.

MATT GALLOWAY: What did you have to offer the monkey to get your glasses back?

JEAN-BAPTISTE LECA: As far as I remember, once it was an adult monkey. And he would only [chuckling] return the object in exchange for a raw egg. And another time, it was a juvenile monkey. And the bartering interaction was a little bit more messy because we haven't talked about age differences. But it's a behaviour that is learned not only through social learning and by observing other monkeys but also through individual experience. And it takes several years. Our research shows that it takes probably up to four years in these species.

MATT GALLOWAY: But when they learn it, and they learn it well, they're very good at it.

JEAN-BAPTISTE LECA: Apparently, yes, most of them. There is some inter-individual variation. And maybe another study we could do in the future is to test individual personalities in monkeys and whether personality traits are correlated with success barter?

MATT GALLOWAY: This is fascinating. And if you do that future study, we will talk again. In the meantime, Jean-Baptiste, thank you very much.

JEAN-BAPTISTE LECA: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

MATT GALLOWAY: Jean-Baptiste Leca is a primatologist and professor of psychology at the University of Lethbridge. This is "The Current" on CBC Radio One. My name is Matt Galloway. Let's take a trip down under to Australia, where it's summer, and time for the first big tennis tournament of the year.

[Sound: Exertion and the clack of a tennis ball against a racket].

ANNOUNCER: It's the miracle in Melbourne. The Djokovic dynasty down under is still intact.

MATT GALLOWAY: That's from last February, Novak Djokovic continuing his reign as champion of the Australian Open. Now, he's being reigned in for his words about the country's quarantine rules. Players from around the world have arrived in Australia to get ready for the event, but more than 70 of them find themselves in quarantine. They were on flights with passengers who tested positive for COVID. The hard lockdown will be two weeks long, prompting some, including Novak Djokovic, to ask for a break from the rules. Take a listen to this. This is from Vanessa Sierra. She's not a player, but is quarantining with her boyfriend, Aussie Bernard Tomic.

VANESSA SIERRA: This is the worst part of quarantine. I don't wash my own hair. I've never wash my own hair. It's just not something that I do.

MATT GALLOWAY: Hmm. Stephanie Myles is editor in chief of www.opencourt.ca based in Montreal. She's in Melbourne covering all of this. Stephanie, good morning. Or I guess it's evening where you are.

STEPHANIE MYLES: Yes, it is. Late evening.

MATT GALLOWAY: What exactly did Novak Djokovic ask for?

STEPHANIE MYLES: There's so much subtext and context to that. Djokovic made a list of suggestions to the tournament director, a man named Craig Tiley, of how they could improve things on the quarantine front in a show of solidarity to his fellow players. Of course, he is not in Melbourne. He is in Adelaide with the other superstars in big fancy suites with significantly, it appears, looser restrictions. [chuckling] So he's fine over there. Some of the suggestions were commonsensical, and I think the tournament might have come up with them on their own. Some of them were rather oblivious to the very evident and strict quarantine that the players have been under because even the players who have now been relegated to full quarantine because of those positive tests were already in quarantine 19 hours a day. And the other part of it, they were allowed to go to the site to train with quarantine police all over them.

MATT GALLOWAY: There have been reactions to those comments by Novak Djokovic. Nick Kyrgios, Aussie player, called him a tool. And we know that Vanessa Sierra has taken a lot of heat for her comments about not washing her hair and not being able to have somebody come in and wash her hair for her. How is all of this being received by the Australian public? I mean, Australia is ahead of the curve when it comes to tackling this virus. And they've taken great pride in this. So how is it being received when superstars arrive, and they're asking for a pass?

STEPHANIE MYLES: Yes, I would say they're actually quite righteous about it, to be honest, because nobody else in the world has been in tough quarantine lockdown. So they are the only ones on the planet. That's kind of how they've been acting a little bit. You know, I feel a little bit bad for Bernie Thomic's girlfriend because she actually had quite a long video. And one of the TV networks here just cut that part out of it. And she was joking, kind of, you know, I mean, she was joking. She washes her own hair. So the arrival of the players has been received rather sceptically. But what has sort of put them in trouble is that, you know, some of the players are complaining about the conditions, not because they didn't understand that there would be, you know, a tough quarantine, not that they weren't prepared for most of it. But now the playing field has been made quite uneven. You know, some players are able to train for two weeks. Other players are sitting in their hotel room for two weeks. It's rough in that regard. And it's not that they mean to be insensitive to the the long lockdown that the Melburnians underwent to basically get their COVID cases down to zero, which is a tremendous achievement. But they're not going anywhere to infect anybody with COVID. They might be complaining on social media, but they're still following all the guidelines. And it's funny with Djokovic, I mean, Djokovic just won this tournament so many times. He's the defending champion. You know, I think his intentions are basically good. But then he'll come out with something like that that's kind of tone-deaf. And it was blown up a little bit unfairly. They were not demands. They were suggestions. But poor him, I mean, he always seems to put his foot in it somehow.

MATT GALLOWAY: It's not... it's worth mentioning that not all the players are there whining. I mean, the coach of the Canadian superstar Bianca Andreescu tested positive. He's in lockdown. She hasn't been complaining about her situation. Last night, Vasek Pospisil, a Canadian tennis player, was speaking on "As It Happens" with Carol Off. Take a listen to what he said about the situation that he finds himself in.

VASEK POSPISIL: We totally get that. Like, we actually feel bad. Like, I'll be honest, we've had group chats, and we don't feel great about this. Like, you know, there's Australian citizens that just haven't been able to go home for ten months and, you, can't see their families in lockdowns.

MATT GALLOWAY: Those comments by Pospisil are perhaps a bit of reassurance to Aussies, but you wonder whether they have any second thoughts about holding this tournament now, while the pandemic still rages around the world?

STEPHANIE MYLES: Pospisil is definitely preparing for his post-tennis career as a politician. [Matt chuckles] There's no doubt about that. He and Djokovic are trying to start a players association. You wouldn't call it a union because they're independent contractors. They're not employees. So anything that they can do, I mean, they're quite motivated to do it. You know, certainly, the organizers don't have second thoughts. The Victorian government is very, very keen on hosting this because they've just been through this very tough lockdown. And it's an event, even at half capacity, that brings in millions and millions of dollars to the economy. And it also gives a sense of sort of normalcy and gives people something to enjoy in the summer and, you know, all those things. And so, if they weren't on board, the tournament would not be happening. The disconnect is occurring because the Australian Open are the most player-friendly tournament you can imagine. Craig Tiley, the tournament director, I mean, he will just bend himself at half to do something for the players. So I'm sure Djokovic went to him thinking that he would just accede to all of, you know, requests. But the problem is he doesn't make the decisions on all this stuff. The Victorian government does. And they have to balance a city of citizens who are righteously annoyed that other Aussies can't get home and that they've worked so hard to get that local community transmission down to zero, and they don't want to do anything to jeopardize it. Now, I don't think this will do anything to jeopardize it because it's so shut down, but it's just a perception of it. And the vast majority of the players are not complaining. They're just absolutely getting on with it. I mean, imagine Sylvain Bruneau, how badly he feels. He's not even a player. And his positive test basically put 25 players in their rooms 24 hours a day. I mean, he must feel terrible about that.

MATT GALLOWAY: There are people who are watching this very closely. And it's not just tennis fans. It's because there are other sporting events that are on the calendar. I mean, the Summer Olympics are just a few months away. The president of the IOC, Thomas Bach, said earlier today that there's no "Plan B" — and that these Olympics, he believes, will go ahead as scheduled. Do you think that what's happening, just before we let you go, do you think that what's happening in Australia now will have an impact on decisions for something like the Olympics?

STEPHANIE MYLES: Here's the thing, I think that once we get past this and everybody is out of quarantine, it's going to be a great tournament, and they're going to be fans. And all the people who are who are criticizing it now will be enjoying the tennis. But here's the thing, we're talking about 1,300 people who have come in for this. When you're talking about the Olympics, you're talking about, I mean, at least ten times that many. And into a city that is not COVID-free. The thing that's often said is that the measures in a lot of the other tournaments were to protect the players from the COVID around them in that city. And in this case here, it's the opposite. I mean, it's to protect the people in the city from the tennis players. It's a bit of a role reversal there. But I cannot imagine the scope of an Olympics given the situation in Japan, which is not COVID-free. Or even if it were, I can't imagine it, but I'm sure that Thomas Bach will keep kicking that notion around until there's absolutely no alternative.

MATT GALLOWAY: How's quarantine treating you?

STEPHANIE MYLES: Look, it's not that bad. They bring the food to the door. I'm being tested every day, which was not the original plan. I get very excited when the phone rings. [Matt laughs] And, you know, and I've noticed that there's a fellow on the eighth floor who looks like a player, like he doesn't realize that I can see through his window, through the mirrored glass of the building next door. He doesn't see me watching him pace up and down his room, I guess trying to get exercise. [both chuckling] I mean, it's a little bit crazy, but I'm having a lot of fun with it because at the end of it, when it's over, I will be in a COVID-free city in the middle of summer. And after the year we've all been through, that's going to be... just feels like a dream right now, to be honest.

MATT GALLOWAY: We are pleased to offer you a little bit of human contact and call you on that telephone. Stephanie, take care of yourself. Good to speak with you.

STEPHANIE MYLES: Thanks. A pleasure to be with you.

MATT GALLOWAY: Stephanie Myles is the editor in chief of www.opencourt.ca Based in Montreal. She is currently covering the Australian Open in Melbourne. Earlier in the week, we were talking about loneliness, something that many Canadians are familiar with, particularly during this pandemic. And we heard from many of you about your experiences of loneliness and how you are coping. The current senior producer, Karin Marley, is here with me to go through some of your mail. Karin, good morning.

KARIN MARLEY: Good morning, Matt. We got lots of suggestions from people about how to feel less lonely in these times. Here's one from Drew Jacques. One of your interviewees mentioned the unbearable silence of these times. It struck a chord with me. I recently stumbled upon something I find to be quite helpful in passing the time and generating calmness, "Campfire by the Lake" on YouTube. My wife and I put it on every evening, watch and listen to the crackling fire as the sun sets over Lake Utah, I believe. Since the dawn of time, we humans have sat by a campfire and peacefully contemplated our existence. In this time of COVID, I believe we will all benefit if we gather together in our own small spaces and sit by a campfire.

MATT GALLOWAY: Lovely Peg Fong, who was one of our guests in the segment earlier this week, talked about the need for physical touch and how taking off your shoes and socks and walking around barefoot might help. That resonated with Richard Smiley in British Columbia. It was a great idea about walking around barefoot. You find out how long it's been since you cleaned the kitchen floor. [chuckling] Where the five grains of popcorn that went when you spiled them as you were getting ready to pop some popcorn. And most of all, that there is a lot of dirt and general bits and pieces of things that have no reason to even exist there, but somehow have appeared. This gets you feeling guilty. And instead of feeling sorry for yourself, you buckle down and clean the house. There is nothing like a bit of shame to buck you up.

KARIN MARLEY: [both chuckle] With two kids in the house, I am not sure I want to try the barefoot thing. I'm quite aware that our floors are very dirty.

MATT GALLOWAY: And perhaps covered in Legos as well!

KARIN MARLEY: Exactly! [laughing] It could be dangerous. A lot of people wrote in about their animals. Here's one from Janet Clark in Toronto. Our senior dog died in August, and we ended up getting a new puppy in December. I'm amazed at the smiles and comments and personal interaction that we didn't have before. When we're outside with them, people want to engage with our golden doodle puppy, Finnegan Finnegan was on his first walk on a leash and a jogger passing by at seven a.m.. Cheered on his attempts. A bike rider grinned from ear to ear one morning and commented on Finnegan's desire to chase leaves on a windy day. I do not take these additional interactions for granted. I appreciate everyone, and it feels like a friendlier world out there,.

MATT GALLOWAY: This is some advice from Parker in Wyoming, Ontario. I live alone, just me and the mutt. And I have a laundry list of crap happening in my life I could torture you and your listeners with, but I'm not going to. Encourage folks to focus on the simple good things in life, cook something you like, fix some stuff around the house, get out for a walk, say hi to everyone you meet. It really screws them up, crank the tunes and pretend you know how to dance in your kitchen. In fact, I recommend listening to The Statler Brothers song "Flowers on the Wall" every morning.

KARIN MARLEY: Here's a suggestion from Norma Corbitt in Halifax. When talking to someone on the phone, I sometimes suggest that we have a telephone hug, with each of us still on the phone, putting our hands on our opposite shoulders. I find this to be a pretty convincing substitute hug. It's soothing to do for yourself any time, too.

MATT GALLOWAY: Not everyone we should mention is struggling with being alone. V Xaronski in North Kootenay Lake, British Columbia, says some of us are thriving. There is a portion of the senior population who are very comfortable with themselves. Staying physically away from others is no big deal. And in some cases, a welcome excuse not to have to engage. I have always said that it is good for children to spend time by themselves. To the young, I say embrace this time alone, use it to explore who you are and who you can be.

KARIN MARLEY: And finally, Maureen Glover has taken up this daily routine. My friend and I, we both live alone, do a walk every morning through the village of Pointe Clare. Every bus that passes, we give a friendly wave to the bus driver, as the buses are almost always empty due to the fear of getting COVID-19. The driver almost always gives us a lovely wave back. We started this in March 2020 when the pandemic started, and we felt so sorry for the lonely bus drivers. We enjoy doing this as we are two senior ladies and are probably a bit lonely ourselves.

MATT GALLOWAY: Thank you to everyone who wrote in. And thank you, Karin, for helping sift through the mail.

KARIN MARLEY: You're welcome.

MATT GALLOWAY: You can get in touch about anything you hear on the program. We read all of your letters. And some of them end up on the radio. You can email us: thecurrent@cbc.a. Tweet us: @TheCurrentCBC. Or go to the website: wwww.cbc.ca/thecurrent. Click on the "contact" link. That is "The Current" for today. Coming up next on CBC Radio One, it's "Q". Loreta Todd is a filmmaker, and she will join topower to talk about telling Indigenous stories, and why that's important. And why that is at the heart of her new project set in beautiful Kitimat, British Columbia. You'll hear that coming up in just a few moments on CBC Radio One. One of the letters that we got mentioned dancing. Parker in Wyoming, Ontario, suggested that you beat the blues by dancing in your kitchen to The Statler Brothers song "Flowers on the Wall". So wherever you happen to be right now, the kitchen, the living room, your car, you know what to do. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to "The Current". We'll talk to you tomorrow.

[Music: "Flowers On The Wall" by The Statler Brothers/Country folk]

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January 21, 2021 Episode Transcript

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