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The Current Transcript for January 8, 2021

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

This is our country, this is our house that's it.

We're storming the Capitol. It's a revolution.

MATT GALLOWAY: In the hours after a mob stormed the U.S. Capitol, the man who inspired them, U.S. President Donald Trump, was silenced on Twitter and Facebook. And in under two weeks, he'll be out of office. But that, many experts believe, won't be the end of this story. Coming up, how the far right has been building towards Wednesday's mayhem and the role that social media played in fanning the flames. Also this morning, 2021 is only a few days old, but already many people could probably use a break, maybe somewhere hot?

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We are showing you guys what it's like to travel again, what it's like to be on the aeroplane, to be in Mexico, to be at a resort. And we're going to be taking you guys along for the entire journey.

MG: Despite stern advisories not to travel abroad, many people are doing just that. And airlines are offering seat sales and fighting against government mandated quarantines just to help you out. In 30 minutes, why it's not just elected officials who are heading for the beach. Plus, as vaccines roll out across Canada, a look at how other countries are coordinating the jab from the very efficient to a nation whose efforts have been compared to a leisurely family stroll. But we begin with the roots of a riot. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. And this is The Current.

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U.S. Capitol mayhem was long time coming, and fuelled by social media, say far-right watchers

Guests: Seyward Darby, Jen Schradie

MG: Scores of Trump supporters incited by a lie told by the president himself, stormed the U.S. Capitol this week, their belief that the election was stolen by Democrats. And we've been watching this group who include MAGAS, Proud Boys, Q-Anon followers grow over the past five years, but this week reached a whole new level.

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TRUMP: We will never give up. We will never concede. It doesn't happen.

[Protestors chanting]

VOICE: We were good people. The government did this to us. We were normal, good, law abiding citizens. And you guys did this to us. We want our country back, but they don't get to steal it from us. They don't get to tell us. We didn't see what we saw.

VOICE 2: They really did not think this is violent, breaking into the U.S. Capitol?

VOICE 3: Was 1776 violent?

VOICE 2: You are saying this is on the same level as the American Revolution.

MG: My next two guests have been tracking the far right in the United States. Jen Schradie is a digital sociologist at CNN's poll in Paris and the author of The Revolution. That Wasn't How Digital Activism Favours Conservatives. And Seyward Darby is a contributor to The New York Times and the editor in chief of The Atavist magazine. Good morning to you both.

JEN SCHRADIE: Good morning, Matt. Good morning, Seyward.

SEYWARD DARBY: Hello. Thanks so much for having me.

MG: Thanks for joining us, Sayward, I want to start with you. There are a lot of people who said they were surprised to see the U.S. Congress overrun by a group of Trump supporters interrupting a key vote. Do you think standing back and knowing what you know in terms of the, you know, the sweep of not just history, but the last five years, should people be surprised?

SEYWARD DARBY: No, absolutely not. I'm frankly, at this point, I don't know how many times people need to say, you know, this is what we want and this is what we're going to do, to have the wider public and especially the institutions that are supposed to protect democracy to to believe them. It's been very clear for the last couple of years that this is where we were heading. But as I wrote in an op ed in The Times this week, this is also something that we have seen coming for decades. This is something that the far right has been really gunning for. And they've been spelling it out. And as I'm sure Junkin can point to. They've said as much on online for for many years and people are surprised because they weren't paying attention.

MG: Jen, tell me more about that then. How long has an event like what we saw on Wednesday been building in the United States?

JEN SCHRADIE: When I first started interviewing far right activists, one sector who like to call themselves preppers, right. Were preparing with guns and food for some kind of crisis. And when I asked them, what exactly are you preparing for? And again, this was almost a decade ago, they said a financial crisis, some kind of worldwide disaster or a political upheaval. And what we found this week is that that was the perfect storm. Right? We have a financial crisis because of covid, which is the worldwide disaster they were pointing to and the political upheaval that in many ways was exacerbated by what happened in the capital on Wednesday.

MG: How open are those calls to action online?

JEN SCHRADIE: They are extremely open, and when I hear members of the police or politicians or even the news media talking about being surprised, it's it's frankly slightly frustrating. As someone who has been both writing and researching about this topic for some time there, certainly before Trump was elected, there was more of a bubble, so to speak. You had to look a little bit deeper, whether it's online or offline, to talk to far right activists. But since then, it's been very public, even on platforms such as Twitter or Facebook. There were very specific calls for the January six attack on the Capitol building.

MG: Seyward, pick up on that. Then what in the last four years has changed in the four years that Donald Trump has been in power. How has that changed the face of the far right in the United States?

SEYWARD DARBY: Yeah, it's such an important question, and I remember when I started researching my book, Sisters and Hate, which is about women who support white nationalism. I asked a sociologist who had been studying this for many, many years, decades, what's what's new, what's different. And she says the person in power, the person in charge of the government is on their side. And they suddenly feel emboldened and they feel like they can say what they want to say, what they've been thinking. And the fact is that that then becomes a snowball effect. Right. They say what they mean have been wanting to say. They say it on channels where maybe before they wouldn't have felt quite as comfortable. And then people listen and recruitment grows and it becomes a bigger and bigger problem. And I think that Jen pointed to - if I may call you Jen, by the way.

JEN SCHRADIE: Absolutely.

SEYWARD DARBY: Thank you. I would like to point to the fact that, you know, before the Trump era, it was a little bit harder to find these folks, but they were there and they've been communicating, particularly in the digital space, for a really long time. They were some of the earliest adopters of various forms of digital communication because it was a way for them to talk and communicate without the prying eyes of outsiders. And the fact is that any time something broke into the real world, there was an incident somewhere in Oklahoma City, for instance, or even something like violent or, you know, a planned attack that didn't didn't work. The problem is that law enforcement, government institutions, the media, they would treat it like an isolated incident. They would treat it like it was the work of a lone wolf. They wouldn't connect the dots and say there's a lot of talk behind the scenes that we're not acknowledging that it's feeding into people's decisions to act. And as a result, people did not treat this people, meaning the institutions, American institutions did not treat this as the problem that it was. And frankly, the the reason for that, there are many reasons. But the top line reason for sure is an unwillingness in the United States to acknowledge that white Americans are a national security threat or can be a national security threat, I should say.

MG: Did you did you see that in the wake of Wednesday? I mean, even and I want to go back to the Internet in a moment, but even in the wake of Wednesday, you see some of the photos of people and there's the guy wearing the horns or whatever like that. And people dismiss him as saying, well, he looks like he's on his way to ComicCon or something like that. Does that have an effect in terms of people not taking, to your point, say we're not taking what's unfolding as seriously as perhaps they should?

SEYWARD DARBY: Absolutely, I think that we in the United States, we, meaning white Americans, especially, you know, are very quick to say, oh, well, this is a fringe issue. These people are pathetic. They're not reflective of anything mainstream or familiar. And that is such an error. As someone pointed out the other day, just because a coup is stupid doesn't mean that it's a coup. And another researcher of extremism on Twitter said, I don't understand why people don't think that stupid people can cause enormous harm, enormous damage. And I think that there's a minimising of the threat that far right white extremists pose. There's a tendency to others to think of them as jokes, to think of them as a no no real threat. And that certainly is not how we should be responding to what happens on Capitol Hill.

MG: Jen, talk more about the role that social media has played in stoking this over the last several years. There are a lot of people who we can talk about the actions that social media took in the wake of Wednesday. But a lot of people who said whatever you're doing, it's, you know, a day late and a dollar short.

JEN SCHRADIE: Yes, so just to bridge that question with Sayward's point about that, this isn't fringe and that these are everyday people who are very active, not only online but offline, whether it's with their Republican Party, whether it's with their local school. And I found that a lot of conservative activists who are active online, but as well, just in general, were middle class or upper class. A lot of the leaders of the groups I interviewed had not only college degrees, but some had master's or PhDs. So there's this sense, again, that they're stupid, duped fools believing in misinformation. And that's a vast, vast oversimplification of what's going on. Because if we look at what I found, for example, the title of my book is The Revolution That wasn't: How Digital Activism Favours Conservatives. So why is that? And one is this social class advantage that it's not just a social class background of some of these activists, but it's also the this whole conservative media ecosystem, people who have more resources and more power that have really been able to build exponentially the social media presence of conservatives online. And, you know, another key factor with that is that conservatives tend to have very straightforward, simplistic messages that they've had for a while. And a key finding that I talk about in my book is that conservatives really focus on freedom. Freedom from the government, free markets, freedom of information. And so for them, they often felt like the mainstream media wasn't covering their issues adequately. So the Internet was this ideal tool for them. Their eyes would light up when I would talk to them about the Internet. Whereas those on the left that I spent time with and analyse their online footprint often felt like their message of fairness, somewhat different from this message of freedom, were wanting to get a vast array of diverse voices and people involved. And as a result, the Internet became almost this shaped ball and chain tool that they had to use, along with a vast array of other communication tools to get as many people involved as possible because of this belief in diversity and egalitarianism and to get a lot of people involved, whereas conservatives really saw and continue to see social media as this direct tool to in many ways preach, say there's a big connexion to the evangelical movement. And I call them, I talk about digital evangelism. Right. So the Internet is a way to tell people what's really going on. The truth, the message often of both God and politics. And just for these reasons of both class resources, kind of an ideological motivation and the third being organisation. So to get back to this myth of spontaneity, these groups are organised. So it's this combination of ideology and inequalities and institutions that they're really able to harness and really dominate online, contrary to this idea that social and digital activism is of the left.

MG: I was going to say, Sayward, we have seen politicians embolden the far right. And to Jen's point, I mean, a lot of this seems to be in broad daylight online. What about law enforcement in the United States? What role has law enforcement played in this?

SEYWARD DARBY: Oh, gosh, not not a good one is is the short answer, and I think that, you know, we've seen some reporting over the last couple of years indicating that, you know, law enforcement has not treated this threat seriously. Worse, there are extremists in the ranks of law enforcement and law enforcement in many parts of the country has nourished the type of ideology Jen is referring to. This idea of freedom being the most important and freedom of being this very ambiguous and conveniently, what's the word I'm looking for? Mutable, I guess, idea. It certainly means freedom for a certain type of person, a certain type of white American. And law enforcement has many members of law enforcement have really made that they're their own rallying cry, freedom from chaos, freedom from crime. And those are often, you know, coded words for, you know, things they don't find comfortable or there's not to their taste, the changing nature of the American people. And it changes demographically, I guess, is what I mean. And I think that another sort of bigger, not so much of today immediately, but looking back over time, another problem is the way again. And I said this a second ago with regard to the media, but law enforcement was definitely part of the problem, that they treated the the far right. They treated white extremists as, you know, lone wolves, isolated incidents, and didn't do a good job connecting the dots between different individuals and different events. And frankly, after 9/11, there was a deep unwillingness on the part of law enforcement and government institutions more broadly to think of terrorism, to think of any real threat to national security as being perpetrated by American citizens who were white. And I mean, just frankly, an outright disregard for that possibility. And what that all snowballs into today is certainly the police being overrun in Congress, but also some of them not seeming to mind the people were there. And again, just the fact that we saw this coming, they said exactly what they were going to do. And yet law enforcement seemed surprised. And it's just a failure across so many different layers of knowledge of foresight of organisation. It's just it's, quite frankly, astonishing.

MG: Just in the last couple of minutes that we have, I'll ask you both this, but Jen, we'll start with you briefly. What's going to change for these groups with Donald Trump leaving office in a couple of weeks time?

JEN SCHRADIE: What might change is the you know, on the one hand, we would think maybe they wouldn't be as emboldened, right, because Trump has really opened the floodgates for it. On the other hand, given that the most of the people arrested on Wednesday were sent home on bail. Right? They just could leave or even leave the area. And so I think without any kind of serious prosecution, not just from the people who scaled the buildings that we saw, but all the way to the top, including Trump and other people who have supported this politically, they are going to continue to feel open to organise both online and offline.

MG: I think it's worth mentioning, Sayward, that we saw Trump rallies here this week in Canada as well. And there's I mean, the proud voice of roots here in this country. There are other far right groups who have shown support for him. Just briefly, does his reach and the reach of those groups into this country surprise you?

SEYWARD DARBY: It doesn't in so far as you know, when you talk about the far right and white extremists, they've always been interested in reaching across borders. And we've seen this over the last couple of years. You know, there have been some prominent far right extremists who have come out of Canada. We've seen, you know, connexions made between the American far right and European right. White nationalists. And so it's not surprising. I mean, certainly, there's a lot of rhetoric about the freedom of America, the importance of America. But then right beneath that is is whiteness and a sense of needing to unite as a race of European peoples. And so I think that, to you, to your question right before, this is not going anywhere. And if anything, the thing that frightens me the most is the emboldening that Trump allowed, combined with now the oppositional stance that they are able to take, because they have been told repeatedly that something has been stolen, something has been taken away, and that they are the only people who can possibly remedy that. And I think that there is a lot of energy behind that idea. And frankly, it's the kind of energy we've seen on the far right going back many, many years. And now you have it combined with, as I just said, the you know, the floodgates that open and allowed many, many people to to sympathise with with this cause.

MG: I really appreciate speaking with you both this morning. Thank you very much.

JEN SCHRADIE: Thanks, Matt.

SEYWARD DARBY: Thank you so much,.

MG: Jen Schradie is a digital sociologist at Sciences Po in Paris, Seyward Darby is a contributor to The New York Times and the author of Sisters in Hate American Women on the Front Lines of White Nationalism. Your CBC News is next. And then.

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We strongly, strongly, strongly recommend to avoid all nonessential travel outside of Canada. Those who decide to travel may face fewer transportation options that will make it harder to return.

MG: If you're following along, that's three stronglies from Canada's foreign affairs minister. But that has not stopped many from taking flight, air travel and covid when we return. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. Back in six minutes.

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Canadian airlines encouraging people to travel amid pandemic

Guests: Oksana Mashchak, Ubish Yaren, John Gradek, Dr. Lauren Lapointe-Shaw

MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, countries are scrambling to vaccinate as many people as possible, as quickly as possible to protect against covid-19. We'll hear about those efforts in three countries with three very different stories coming up. But first, while Canadians are told not to travel, airlines are providing incentives to you to take to the skies.

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SOUNDCLIP

We've got your room here at the of star selection. We have an ocean room. The views are amazing and we can't wait to show you.

Yes. The sun, out there.

MG: That may sound like a throwback to pre pandemic life, but it's only from a couple of weeks ago. Air Canada has been partnering with social media influencers like the one we just heard to show what it's like to travel right now. With most Canadians staying home, airlines are eager to get people back in the air. This comes as the government continues to urge Canadians to avoid all non-essential travel. And politicians across this country are resigning over vacations they took during this pandemic. Oksana Mashchak is a travel adviser at a travel agency and an avid traveller herself, and she has been sharing her recent journeys on Instagram. Oksana, good morning.

OKSANA MASHCHAK: Good morning.

MG: How many trips have you taken during this pandemic?

OKSANA MASHCHAK: I have taken several trips and the current count is four.

MG: Four, and we're hearing from influencers. Are you being paid for these trips or are you taking them on your own dime?

OKSANA MASHCHAK: I'm taking them on my own dime.

MG: Where have you been?

OKSANA MASHCHAK: So I have gone to several resorts in Mexico and Israel, Cuba.

MG: What is it like to travel right now? I mean, most of us have been stuck at home. We have been on a plane in months.

OKSANA MASHCHAK: Well, of course, I've been quite fortunate to have had a chance to try what has changed in the travel world, and the one thing I can tell you, the airlines and the resorts and the receiving destinations are really going out of their way to make Canadian visitors like myself feeling extra safe. And I've observed nothing but extreme measures and cleanliness on my recent experiences.

MG: Why are you travelling now?

OKSANA MASHCHAK: Well as an experienced travel adviser and especially as a wedding enrolment specialist, people still contact me and they're asking me questions. And as I have to make sure I'm providing sound advice, I had to just go and test it out for myself. And also, I have a huge support for our airlines and also the destinations themselves.

MG: The directive from the government is pretty straightforward. I mean, I'm looking at it on the Global Affairs website. It says Avoid nonessential travel outside Canada until further notice. Why are you ignoring that?

OKSANA MASHCHAK: I wasn't quite really ignoring and I guess when I first came out with the decision to travel the instructions for may be as stern as are being portrayed right now, and also I didn't do so until the airlines and also even some media outlets quoting Dr. Tam said that we have now a pilot test to project and work or you can quarantine. And also showing the transmission levels in travel were one of the lowest out there of all the activities you can engage in.

MG: But I just wonder, I mean, again, the guidance is pretty straightforward. They're just saying don't travel outside of the country unless you absolutely need to. Does that give you any pause when you're taking those trips?

OKSANA MASHCHAK: Of course it does. It makes you think of the intent. Makes you think if it's a straight saying, do not do it. However, at the time when I took the trips, it didn't specifically- the alerts have changed throughout the time, and there were times where we absolutely grounded it and that's when I was stuck at home and not really living a lot and really, really limited any interactions and being super careful.

MG: What do you make of the way the Canadians have responded to politicians who have taken trips like yourself during this pandemic? A number of them. Those politicians have found themselves being named and shamed and demoted, forced to resign. What do you make of that?

OKSANA MASHCHAK: Well, for sure I have seen the public reaction. However, as I look at the situation, it almost is like a double edged sword where. We've seen the messages from the doctors and government approved testing programme and the head doctor of the country saying that the rate is below one percent of people travelling. You see it as a glimmer of hope. But then when we go and see people go do it, even though we are being shown all these safety measures and all those low risk, according to statistics, that our medical advisory people are being shamed because I believe many of us don't have such opportunity, especially when the government is the one to put out a message the public expects them to lead by example.

MG: Are you going to keep travelling in 2021? Do you have another trip lined up?

OKSANA MASHCHAK: No, I have nothing planned right now just because of the plans and how things are going. And right now I'm at home and looking at how do I proceed further and watch advise because travelling is not an easy decision and especially with people, families with children in schools where the people who are living lives that have high interaction. So there isn't one straight answer and one easy decision as well. I've always thought of the answer you had as to what can happen next. Well, you're affected and your decision.

MG: Oksana, good to speak with you. I appreciate your time this morning. Thank you.

OKSANA MASHCHAK: Thank you.

MG: Oksana Mashchak is a travel adviser who has been travelling during the pandemic and documenting her trips on Instagram, there are many countries that rely on tourists to keep their economies afloat and travellers from Canada and elsewhere bring tourism dollars, but they also potentially bring covid-19. Ubish Yaren runs a tour company in Mexico City called Mexico Underground. Ubish, good morning to you.

UBISH YAREN: Hi, good morning.

MG: How big of a hit has your business taken because of the pandemic?

UBISH YAREN: Huge. Just to give you an idea, I was a major company, small and just private thoughts. So I do look forward to a week. And right now with the pandemic that it started pretty much a year ago, almost, I have done like stores in since February.

MG: Wow. And when the tourists come, do you find that they're following the safety protocols? Are they wearing masks and distancing, etc.?

UBISH YAREN: Well, I have been approached or contacted for with a few clients before they come, before we take a tour. They tell me we already had COVID or we are not afraid. And I told them, well, you take a tour with me. We have to take all the restrictions. You have to wear at least a face mask, you know, a plastic thing on the face, also hand sanitizer on every place. And sometimes they don't answer back. For the people that I can see in Mexico City, I will say that especially the tourists, 50 percent of them follow the restrictions. The other 50 percent, they just come to party because here there is less restrictions.

MG: And I mean, that's the thing. People feel as though they're escaping the pandemic by going somewhere where there are fewer restrictions. Right.

UBISH YAREN: Exactly, yes.

MG: Does it make you nervous, given the fact that Mexico City right now is in the highest alert level for covid-19?

UBISH YAREN: Well, you know, I mean, to be honest, in Mexico City, we are 27 million people. The tourists, it's a very, very small portion of it. And honestly, when they go out, pretty much they go out on their own, or they do like their own meetings. So it's more for them, but they have to be careful because they are the ones that they don't know how the medical system works here. They're the ones that speak the language. They are the ones that have no idea what will happen if they get COVID here.

MG: So what would you say then to Canadians who are considering a trip to Mexico?

UBISH YAREN: Well, first of all, these only answering my YouTube channel at first, this is not the time to travel. No, this is the reason why this thing has started. No, this is not the right time to travel. But I understand if people need to travel. No, maybe your [unintelligible] is just going crazy. The prices of your [unintelligible] are just really high and they're just full of the restrictions wherever you go. Down here in Mexico City, most of us wear a facemask and there's like checkpoints on every store. Checkpoints check your temperature [unintelligible]. So just follow what the people do.

MG: But if you can don't travel. That's I mean, you're saying this is somebody who's this is your business in some ways is relying on tourists.

UBISH YAREN: Yeah. Yeah. But if you can't don't travel, this is not the time to travel. But like I was telling you, I understand that there are exceptions. I understand.

MG: I wish you the best of luck with your business. There's got to be a difficult time for you. Ubish, thank you very much.

UBISH YAREN: Thank you so much.

MG: Ubish Yaren runs Mexico underground and specialises in food tours in Mexico City. John Gradek is a former executive at Air Canada and a faculty lecturer and coordinator of the Aviation Management Programme at McGill University in Montreal. John, good morning to you.

JOHN GRADEK: Good morning.

MG: How bad is business for airlines right now?

JOHN GRADEK: Oh, it's pretty bad. I think you're talking about numbers. If you're comparing it to the same time last year, somewhere between 70 and 80 percent of a drop in traffic for the airlines.

MG: MG: So what do you make in the midst of a pandemic? What do you make of the fact that, you know, companies like Air Canada are involved in these social media campaigns, that if you go on to the website, there are seat sales. They're encouraging you to get on a plane right now and travel in the midst of a pandemic.

JOHN GRADEK: I think that, you know, what the airlines are doing right now. I think they're basically, you know, looking at trying to stimulate travel through the mechanisms that have always worked for them in the past, which has been price. So you have seat sales traditionally in January for, you know, flights to the Caribbean, flights to Florida, flights to Mexico. So this is a normal strategy on the part of the airlines to basically price their way into people's minds to basically stimulate travel. And, you know, they're using social media as an additional vehicle this year to get people to become interested in flying.

MG: It's a normal strategy, but it's not a normal time. We're in the midst of a global pandemic. Do you think? I mean, it's a business. So whether morals come into it or not perhaps as a different matter. But is it ethically appropriate for companies like this to use influencers and, you know, cash discounts to try and enable people, encourage people to get on a plane?

JOHN GRADEK: There's nothing in the regulations, you know, concerning air operators in Canada that prohibit them from doing these things. There's nothing illegal in what they're doing. The question you asked is very appropriate in is, is it ethical? Is it really appropriate in times? I think that's a question that the airlines basically have tried to- their commercial strategies are basically the answer to that question. They're saying, since it's not illegal to fly, will still promote flying.

MG: It's not just flying, though. I mean, Air Canada has also partnered with Manulife for covid Quarantine and Medical Insurance. The company has a deal to travel to Hawaii with a quarantine exemption. It's been lobbying against the 14 day quarantine when people come back into Canada, what strikes you about that?

JOHN GRADEK: Well, I think there's a line in the sand that's being drawn between the regulators and Public Health Canada on one side and the airline and hospitality industry on the other side saying, you know, we're complying with your tests and we're looking at undertaking these pilot programs. But the Trade-Off for those testing programmes must be eliminating the quarantine. And I think that's where there is a a very, very strong message coming from the federal government that a cornerstone of the protection processes we are using is going to be to quarantine. It's non-negotiable. Now, if you want to do testing, let's talk about testing. Let's talk about pilots. Let's implement testing either pre or post flight. But the quarantine is non-negotiable. And I don't think the airlines are being like that stance.

MG: As you say, their business has been clobbered. How helpful has the government been in supporting these airlines so far?

JOHN GRADEK: There's a there's a couple of billion dollars that have been spent on the on the on the airline, aviation industry, aerospace industry through various wage subsidies. And it was on since March. The industry industry's been clamouring for direct support, sectorial support, as they say. The government has not done that specifically. There may be thinking about it, but I think that there is still some issues in terms of the aerospace and the airline industry really conforming to the directives of non-essential travel recommendations, that is causing the government to kind of say, wait a second, we're not playing the same tune here, and we're going to wait until such time as the airlines kind of play ball with us before we start considering throwing money at them.

MG: Well, one of the issues and it's for travellers is that airlines are still holding onto money for cancelled flights. People haven't gotten a lot of refunds. Do you think that the public has a lot of sympathy for the lot of those airlines?

JOHN GRADEK: Well, I think not. I think that the refund issue has been, you know, in people's Crawford for four months now. I think WestJet has made some initiatives to kind of relax that prohibition on refunding.

MG: As you understand it, why won't those airlines just refund the money? I mean, it's the passengers money. The flight hasn't happened. It's perhaps not going to happen. Why can't the airlines refund the money?

JOHN GRADEK: The airlines need the money. The airlines need that cash. It's not as if it's cash that's not being used. You know, Air Canada's burning through 14 million dollars a day operating the aeroplanes that it does. So, you know, there is a need for the airlines to keep, you know, keep the building warm. You know, they're burning the furniture as we speak in terms of looking at leasing aeroplanes that they own, but cash is king in these times. And I think the airlines are looking at that cash is being something that they've that they need in order for them to survive in the longer term.

MG: If you are still an executive at Air Canada, what would you recommend the airline do?

JOHN GRADEK: Oh, I think the airline basically has to look at trying to make sure that it, in fact, improves its relationship with the regulators, with the Canadian and provincial governments. I think right now it's a very tense situation. We've got to look at what is it that we can do as an airline to go in there and to assist the government in implementing its nonessential travel recommendations. And I think the airline industry has got to tone down its its processes of trying to stimulate travel at this point.

MG: How do you think that message would be received in the executive suite?

JOHN GRADEK: Well, I think at this point time, Air Canada is pretty desperate to look at getting cash. Business travellers is not there. And the only way they're going to be able to get revenues to compensate for their cost of flying the aeroplane is to stimulate travel in leisure. And that's their strategy right now, is basically to go in there and, you know, stimulate as much leisure travel as they possibly can to minimise the shortcomings in cash.

MG: John, good to speak with you. Thank you.

JOHN GRADEK: All right, Matt. Have a great day.

MG: And you, John Gradek is a faculty lecturer at McGill University in Montreal and a former Air Canada executive. We did request an interview with the National Airlines Council of Canada, but no one was available to speak with us this morning. And we have had no response from Air Canada. Despite some airlines enticing travellers, public health guidelines advise otherwise. Stay put, say those guidelines. Dr. Lauren Lapointe Shaw is a general internist, physician at University Health Network in Toronto and a health services researcher. Doctor. Good morning to you.

DR. LAUREN LEPOINTE SHAW: Good morning.

MG: What are your major concerns about Canadians travelling internationally right now?

DR. LAUREN LEPOINTE SHAW: So I think more than ever, Matt, as we see the rise of these variants, the B117 coming out of the U.K. and other variants in South Africa, now is really not the time to travel. We know that travel is what allows these new variants to take hold in a new location. And the more travel, the faster we can expect to see an expansion of this new variant. And it's likely to overwhelm our systems. We know that when people travel by air, specifically, they're seated much more closely to others than they would be in any other setting, really. There's often a meal on the plane, masks come off. Yes, ventilation systems are very good on planes, but that doesn't sort of remove the fact that you're in close quarters with many different people. Add to that, you know, the risk taking behaviours that happen at the destination. So your previous speaker talked about how they come here to party. So for sure, there's added contact that happens in a lot of these resorts with people from all over the world, again, just multiplying and really giving the virus its best possible chance to take hold.

MG: The guidance seems pretty straightforward, but we know that, you know, there are some politicians who are being chastised for travelling. They're not alone. Hawaii reports that almost 4,000 people from western Canada travelled to Hawaii over the holidays. So the recommendation to avoid all non-essential travel doesn't seem to be getting through. What else could the government be doing?

DR. LAUREN LEPOINTE SHAW: I think the government could do a lot, so I would say, you know, the guideline is clear in some ways, but in other ways it's really just kind of a recommendation. And we've been relying mostly on the honour system. We just think, OK, we put out a recommendation, people will do the right thing. We know from every other area of life that that's unfortunately not the case. So there's a lot that could be done. Right now, as Canadians exit, they're not even asked to present the reason of their essential travel. There isn't even a form that asks you what among these essential categories is your category. I think even doing something as simple as that would actually deter some people because you would be actively lying if you don't fit into one of these buckets. Of course, there's a whole spectrum from there, including things like really enforcing the quarantine upon return. So, for example, like a supervised or managed self isolation, rather, would actually probably deter more people from leaving the country in the first place, putting some of the administrative costs to to run these programmes back on the traveller. So you actually need to pay up front to have permission to leave on a trip and to be assessed, have your essential reason assessed.

MG: And that's what New Zealand is doing or something like that, right?

DR. LAUREN LEPOINTE SHAW: Exactly. Yeah. So I mean, New Zealand really is leading the way in the sense that when you come back to the country after leaving, you actually have to fork out thousands of dollars to pay for your managed self-isolation. So that's really a huge deterrent. But furthermore, their recommendation is not avoid non-essential travel. It is do not travel. So the wording is much more definitive.

MG: As we heard, airlines are hurting. And we know that when, you know, if people aren't flying, those companies aren't making money. This is what the premier of Alberta, Jason Kenney, had to say after several members of his caucus and his chief of staff travelled over the Christmas break.

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If all or almost all travel was to be suspended, I do not believe that WestJet could survive. And the failure of that company would, frankly, be a catastrophe for Alberta's economy and for our prospects of recovery.

MG: Dr. Lapointe-Shaw, what do you think when you hear the Premier come out with that message? It's a big sigh.

DR. LAUREN LEPOINTE SHAW: It's disappointing, but on the one hand, you know, I'm not questioning like what he's saying may very well be true, but I guess it's an issue of the right hand doing something different than the left hand. So if our government at the federal level is saying, no, we don't want people to travel, you know, we don't. It's really counterproductive to have provincial governments kind of going in opposition to this, saying, well, actually, you know, we need to keep this business afloat, therefore, we should be travelling. It's very disappointing. Of course, that's going to have tremendous trickle down effect to everyone who hears that and is going to think, well, look, if Jason Kenney says I'm actually doing a good thing by travelling, then I'm more likely to book that trip.

MG: I mean, the other thing is whether the federal government is offering a bit of a mixed message. This week, the government announced that travellers returning to Canada have to produce evidence of a negative covid-19 test before boarding their flights. So presumably, if you get the negative test, then you can come back. So you might go knowing that if you get the test, you're fine to come home. Is that in itself some sort of form of mixed messaging?

DR. LAUREN LEPOINTE SHAW: Yeah, I think definitely folks may get the sense that if they are able to get a test, then they're sort of in the clear. But I would actually say that the testing decision is the right decision the more processes we have in place. So both the combination of the self isolation and the testing, the more likely we are to actually prevent the invasion of these new variants. I would say it would be important to couch it in that, OK, if you've had an essential reason to travel, you still need this test when you come back. So again, emphasising that these are essential reasons for travel and being very clear about what those essential reasons are so that it doesn't include it is essential to me as an individual to take a tropical vacation. That doesn't count.

MG: Just in the last few seconds that we have. I mean, we're in the dead of winter and it's been a long haul already. People are tired and they might be thinking it would be nice to be somewhere warm on a beach and put this out of my mind. What would you say to people who are considering travel?

DR. LAUREN LEPOINTE SHAW: I would say I understand we all feel this way, we've made so many sacrifices. I think, you know, we don't want to mess it up this late in the game. Things are getting very dire in the hospitals and in the long term care facilities. And, you know, really just think about everybody else that's made these sacrifices and let's all be in this together. Please don't travel.

MG: Doctor, good to speak with you. Thank you.

DR. LAUREN LEPOINTE SHAW: Thank you.

MG: Doctor Lauren Lapointe Shaw is a health services researcher and physician at the University Health Network in Toronto. Are you enticed by the lure of some sunshine and beaches, package deals being advertised, drinks with little tiny umbrellas in them? Did you or are you thinking of vacationing abroad despite the advice to avoid non-essential travel? Perhaps you're listening to us from abroad and you have travelled. Tweet us @TheCurrentCBC or you can email us. Who knows, listening to The Current could be a form of relaxation while you're on a beach. Email us thecurrent@cbc.ca Your thoughts on travel in a period when we are being encouraged not to travel unless it is essential. Coming up after your regional update. We will take a trip around the world from a safe distance to find out how countries are doing with rolling out the covid vaccine. Some good stories, some stories where some work still needs to be done. I'm Matt Galloway staying put. You're listening to The Current. We're back in 90 seconds.

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COVID-19 vaccine rollout in Israel, India and France; one year on from Flight PS752 crash

Guests: Navad Davidivich, Martin Blachier, Swapneil Parikh

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway, you're listening to The Current.

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[Hebrew speech]

MG: And with that, Israel marked its one millionth covid vaccination earlier this week. That's right, one million vaccines. As of today, that number has already passed one and a half million as many other governments around the world are struggling to get vaccines to as many people as possible as quickly as possible. This morning, we're going to check in with three countries that have notable stories to tell about their vaccination efforts. And we'll start in Israel. Dr. Nadav Davidovitch is the director of the School of Public Health at Ben-Gurion University. He also sits on the Israeli National Advisory Committee for covid-19. Dr. Hello.

DR. NAVAD DAVIDOVITCH: Hi. Good morning for you. Good afternoon for me. And it's 1.8 million already.

MG: It's almost difficult to keep track of the numbers that keep going up and up and up. How is it that Israel is vaccinating so many people so quickly?

DR. NAVAD DAVIDOVITCH: So it's a combination of factors. First of all, we secure the vaccines quite early. We have excellent connexions, both Pfizer and Moderna. Actually, the chief medical officer of Moderna is a graduate of Ben-Gurion University, my university. But more deeply, we have a very strong culture of vaccinations going back to the mother and child health care centres. So resistance to vaccination is not a big issue here, but we need to fight a fake news. But more important, maybe we have a very strong public health care system with a infrastructure in the community operated by four non-profit health funds. We also are making drills throughout the years because of preparedness to biological threats. Also the political will, because we are before election. So there was a push also from the government to go ahead. That was all part of a covid-19 preparedness was so good as with vaccination. And of course, vaccination is great, but they're not going to solve other problems, such as a shortage of manpower entering another lockdown, unfortunately. So I'm very proud about this vaccination campaign, but I think it's also very unique to Israeli society that, you know, we have a very strong preparedness programme, a very strong community health care.

MG: Where are you at now in terms of working your way through the population? Because with 1.8 million vaccines, we know around the world, people are starting with the most vulnerable populations and then getting to folks who perhaps are over 60 and then working their way down. So where are you at now in terms of who's getting the vaccine?

DR. NAVAD DAVIDOVITCH: So we have a special committee working on the priorities. The first priority was health care workers and people over 60 and a different chronic condition. So both in terms of health care workers, both in the hospitals and the community and also people over 60, we covered about 70 percent. Now, this is very important because we see now because of Hanukka and other things that were not handled properly in terms of mass gathering, we see the last week arising severe cases and deaths. We hope that covering the elderly and the chronic conditions will give us, you know, in the coming weeks a much better position to be at.

MG: This effort has been celebrated around the world. But at the same time, Israel, as you know, is facing fierce criticism. Why are Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza not included in this very successful vaccination programme?

DR. NAVAD DAVIDOVITCH: If it would be only on the minister of health, everybody is for it, both for moral reasons and also from utilitarian reasons, because finally we are, you know, almost the same community, there are interaction. So it's important also for Israelis. I really hope that we're going to solve these problems, the political issues here. And we are pressing them, talking about all the public health community to have the Palestinians also being vaccinated. And throughout the pandemic, we share the information we have there, many graduates from the Israeli universities that we know very well. It's also in terms of ventillators and testing. We try to ensure our resources. This is our ethical responsibility for sure.

MG: You'll forgive me for asking again, though, a bit, but what is the resistance, within the Israeli government, what's the resistance in getting vaccines to people on the West Bank, in the Gaza Strip? I mean, you say there's a political resistance.

DR. NAVAD DAVIDOVITCH: Not a resistance. It's a totally disconnect. And I think that also from the Palestinian side, some of them were preferring to get the Russian vaccine in order not to be dependent on the Israelis. It's not like a shipment that you can say they on leave it on the border. You need to have collaboration. Now, again, I'm not trying to blame the Palestinians. I think it's our responsibility. And again, I'm emphasising it to give Palestinians a vaccine. And I really hope that this will happen very soon.

MG: You mentioned the political pressure. With an election looming, the prime minister has promised to make Israel a model country, the first in the world out of the pandemic. And he has a plan to be covered by the end of March. Is that realistic?

DR. NAVAD DAVIDOVITCH: Yes. Now it's realistic because we secured the shipment from Pfizer. We also got yesterday another 100000, a vaccine from Moderna. This will serve especially for elderly that cannot get that are located at home and without mobilisation. So, yes, that's something we did a lot of drills in the last decade or so. And again, in such a short term kinds of effective missions is is something that is used to because of the emergency situation.

MG: But you believe that everybody in your country, over the age of 16, all citizens could be vaccinated by the end of March.

DR. NAVAD DAVIDOVITCH: Yes, I truly believe. In the regular vaccination programme, we have usually about 96 to 98 percent coverage. It's amongst the best in the world and I don't see why this is not going to happen also with a covid-19 vaccine.

MG: Dr. Davidovitch, it's good to speak with you about what's happening in your country. I appreciate your time this morning. Thank you.

DR. NAVAD DAVIDOVITCH: Thank you.

MG: Dr. Navad Davidovitch is the director of the School of Public Health at Ben-Gurion University and a member of the Israeli National Advisory Committee for covid-19. Now to India. 150,000 toll in the world after the United States and Brazil. With 1.4 people living in India, vaccinating that entire population will be a momentous task. Dr. Swapneil Parikh is an internal medicine specialist in Mumbai and co-author of The Coronavirus What You Need to Know About the Global Pandemic. Doctor, hello to you.

DR. SWAPNEIL PARIKH: Hi, Matt, and good morning to you and all your listeners.

MG: How far along thus far is the vaccination programme in India?

DR. SWAPNEIL PARIKH: So we're just getting started with emergency authorised new vaccines and we are doing dry runs of our vaccination systems and we plan to start in the next four days or so. We have a very ambitious target in front of us. The Indian government hopes to vaccinate three hundred million people by July. That's six hundred million doses in six months, 25 million doses per week.

MG: What are the logistics in pulling something like that off? I mean, 300 million people in six months is one thing. When you're trying to get more than a billion people, almost a billion and a half people through a very big, crowded country in the midst of a pandemic, how are you going to go about doing this?

DR. SWAPNEIL PARIKH: You know, so I think the covid-19 vaccination programme is actually where India will shine. I think our public health infrastructure is much better geared for vaccination than some of the other aspects of pandemic response. Se have a very exhaustive universal immunisation programme. Also, India, about a decade ago, we had tremendous success with polio and polio programme, which was designed to eradicate polio. It was built so that it could be repurposed for measles and emergency situations like pandemics. So a lot of the infrastructure that needed to be built like gold chains on administration sites following adverse events, that was already in place. And the government has also launched a brand new electronic vaccine management platform, Kalkhoven, which manages everything from the vaccination right from the time the vaccine is produced to the gold chain where it gets it, someone gets inoculated and then following up the person afterwards with the second dose for adverse events. So I think this India is going to do a good job with the vaccinations, much better than other parts of the world.

MG: And your sense is, again, that the previous success that India has had in doing vaccinations is kind of like a dry run for what you're going to be doing with this pandemic.

DR. SWAPNEIL PARIKH: Unfortunately, the public health infrastructure in India is such that we desperately need vaccines because many of the diseases that have been banished long ago from more privileged lives still haunt us in our country. So vaccines are kind of like the last hope we have to protect us from many of the infectious diseases other countries don't have to contend with anymore. So we've got to have a very robust vaccination programme. I think that's going to serve us well in the pandemic.

MG: You mentioned the covid intelligence network, COVIN. What exactly is that?

DR. SWAPNEIL PARIKH: So it's a secure digital platform that links with a unique identifier for the individual and it helps the government track the vaccination programme right from where the vaccines are manufactured to where they are transported to the allocation at the vaccination centres, the administration. So people actually just on the system so they can be inoculated easier and then following up on those individuals afterwards, adverse events, the second dose, ensuring that it sticks to schedule. So it encompasses everything. So the vaccination programme and you know, the great thing is India is the vaccine producer for the world. We are going to be supplying vaccines to a number of countries, I think Canada included. And we have also, the Indian government, has also offered to support any countries, low and middle income countries that want to adopt the golden platform. So they're allowing other countries to use it if they want.

MG: You described it as secure. I mean, there's a lot of information on there. What are the concerns around something like this being hacked?

DR. SWAPNEIL PARIKH: It's a big concern. We have an obligation to ensure to ensure that health data stays private and it stays secure. Of course, there have been data leaks in India before. And yeah, I hope this doesn't come back to haunt us. We need to do a good job with. Because we know how vital it is demanding data security for health data.

MG: You mentioned the two vaccines had received emergency approval, one of which was developed in India. But there has been some controversy around this. Tell me a little bit about the controversy around the vaccine vaccine.

DR. SWAPNEIL PARIKH: The vaccine received what was called restricted emergency authorisation in clinical trial mode, a phrase that had never been heard of before. So much so that everyone was confused about it. No one knew exactly what this meant. So no one knew how this vaccine was being rolled out. Essentially, what's happening is the government is going to expand the clinical trial for this vaccine to everyone who receives it is going to sign an informed consent, is going to be followed up for adverse events, will likely receive compensation if anything goes wrong, and there'll be a robust monitoring system. So it's a large clinical trial like has been done in other countries. However, it's very important to note that there has not been a phase three trial complete on this, not even an interim analysis yet. That's why there was so much concern, because ultimately patients ask that doctors, should I take this vaccine, that doctors are going to have to say, don't know what to say. And at that point, I think that can start to create vaccine hesitancy.

MG: Does that approval, given the fact that at least 150000 people have died, speak to the urgency in the country to get this pandemic under control?

DR. SWAPNEIL PARIKH: I think not just the mortalities and the cases, but also the fact that we're starting to see more transmissible variants that can probably have immune escape. I think that's what has really rushed this issue.

MG: We will watch and see how this unfolds in India. Dr. Parikh, appreciate your time this morning. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. Doctor Swap. Neil Patrick is a physician in Mumbai. Finally, let's stop in France, where more than 66000 people have died from covid-19. That's amongst the worst in Europe. Dr. Martin Blachier is an epidemiologist in Paris. Doctor, hello to you.

DR. MARTIN BLACHIER: Hello.

MG: Thus far, approximately how many people have been vaccinated in France?

DR. MARTIN BLACHIER: Around 40, 40000 today.

MG: Why are those numbers so low? I mean, there was something only like 516 people got the shot in the first week of it being available. Why are the numbers so low?

DR. MARTIN BLACHIER: Because the government didn't prepare to go too much fast at the beginning to prepare something very slow at the beginning, because they are afraid of how French people are going to receive the vaccine, because they will lose a lot of politics around the vaccine, especially in a vaccine. And there's a lot of fake news that circulated about these vaccines. So the French government decided to to go very slow and then not to to force people to get vaccine and add the first one. And one week after the approval was the first of the vaccine, French people see all the different countries like Israel, Germany, Great Britain, also Italian vaccine, a lot of people. And there's a kind of totally change in the in the mood of the country. And everyone said, what's going to happen? The government didn't prepare anything. So the government has to change its strategy very fast and now it's going to go faster. But it's a kind of strange stuff.

MG: You mentioned the vaccine hesitancy. How strong is vaccine hesitancy in France?

DR. MARTIN BLACHIER: Very, very strong, very, very strong, and from the beginning of the pandemic, there's a lot of fake news regarding why this pandemic started. Maybe it's something that has been created by pharma companies to sell vaccine and to introduce some kind of surveillance system and the vaccine to record your genome and so on. And all these politics. There's a lot of people that believe in that here in France. And the government was really afraid about this kind of people because a lot of previous manifestation here in by the same kind of group of people, that's why they were very afraid of these people and they want to go very, very slow. And what is really not funny, but it's quite surprising, is that this polemic about the first week of vaccination really increased the level of confidence in the vaccine here in France. And we were around 40 people, 40 percent of people who want to get it due to have the vaccine before this polemic and one year after, it's around 60 percent. So everything's changed very fast here in France.

MG: What are the roots of that of that vaccine hesitancy in your country?

DR. MARTIN BLACHIER: There's always there's always been this agitation about the vaccine. The a lot of people talk about aluminium in the vaccine that creates some kind of auto immune disease. And also here in France, you have to understand that there's a lot of agitation and worried about pharma companies. And because private objective is not aligned with a public health objective, basically for French people. And that's why there's a kind of doubt about everything that that is from pharma companies. And also you have the scandal of the mediator here in France. He's very specific to France with a lot of people who died from heart disease because of this product that wasn't approved in all the country in Europe, especially here in France, because it was a French pharma companies with all these previous story to make people look a lot of doubt about this.

MG: What do you want the government to do to deal with those fears, given the fact that, as I mentioned, more than 66000 people in France have died from the disease?

DR. MARTIN BLACHIER: I think the government correct very fast his strategy and now we have a much better strategy since yesterday because the government explain the new strategy, which is more in line with all the strategy in the other countries. And for me, the government don't have to convince people. They just have to make the vaccine available in vaccine centre for people who want to get vaccine. And the rest of the population will follow because for sure, people who will not be vaccinated will not have the same opportunity in terms of living than people who get vaccines. So things go naturally. We just have to put the government in a good strategy to vaccinate people who want to have the vaccine. And after everything is going to follow, you know, with the product, you always have people who want at the very beginning and after you are a follower who just wait that the first people get vaccine just to follow after.

MG: Just briefly, how desperate is the situation when it comes to the hospitals in France and the need to get the vaccine into the arms of as many people as possible as soon as possible?

DR. MARTIN BLACHIER: In France, it's not a dramatic situation, you have half of the reanimation bed who are occupied by patients, by cavitation, and we are not in a very worrying situation. We are most in under control. But everything is worried about the British Lions, the British strain of the virus. But we don't know exactly what's going to happen with the strain. And there's a lot of different territory that is going to make a sudden wave or something like that. But in reality, no one knows. And it's kind of fear that for now we are just in a stable situation.

MG: I wish you the best of luck and I appreciate your time this morning. Thank you very much, Dr.

DR. MARTIN BLACHIER: Thank you.

MG: Dr. Martin Blachier is an epidemiologist in France. My name is Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One.

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[Sound: Blast, dog barking]

[Dispatcher]

MG: It was a blast that sent shockwaves across Canada and was felt most deeply in our Iranian community. It was a year ago, after its take off from Tehran, that all 176 people on board Flight 752 were killed. Iran eventually admitted to shooting down the plane. That country maintains, though, that it was human error. The international community still has many questions. Just last week, Canada's foreign affairs minister, Francois Phillipe Champagne, said he does not believe the shooting down of the jet was accidental. The victims families are still looking for answers. And throughout this year, a group of fathers across Canada has bonded men whose wives and children died that day. Here are four of the fathers of Flight 752.

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[Persian speech]

AHMED: Something really funny is that I gave my iPad to Riva just a few days before she goes to Iran and she has changed the password, so now I can't use a visa if they have to take it to Apple one day, so I don't know.

SHAHIIN: I switched Shakiba phone number to my account, but I want to call the Tellus back and ask them, is it possible or does they have [unintelliglbe] voice messaging. I want that file.

VOICE 3: I have I have it here. I haven't given back Prace's phone number. I call her sometimes to hear her voice.

MAHMOUD: I need it for Maya. For my daughter. I have a chance to call her sometimes. I call her. Yeah, I call her and I talk to her. My name is Mahmoud Zibai. I lost my wife, Shazad Hashimi, and my 15 year old daughter, Maya Zibai.

SHAHIN: My name is Shahin Mooqadim. I lost my wife Shakiba and my son Razvi.

AHMED: Let me just do it again, just listen to this.

[Voice mail]

AHMED: My name is Ahmed Ismailion, and I lost my wife and my daughter Riva. She was nine and half. You know, I wasn't an ordinary person waking up in the morning, send my daughter to school, go to work, come back from work, watch TV, meet my wife, or read a book for my daughter. But now I'm running from one interview at another one to just not let this story to be forgotten, because that's what you know, that's the reason that I'm alive for.

SHAHIN: It's not like a job is our duty as a father. In my case, I promised my family that it's my duty to defend them.

ALI: My name is Ali-Reza, and my entire family was killed, my wife, Faiza and my two children, Dorsa and Parsa nine years old and 16 years old.

SHAHIIN: It's not easy that you lose your family and after that, you be patient.

MAHMOUD: The first time I saw there reason we're sitting together. You remember it like it was like you talked to BBC a few minutes ago or one hour ago. I said yes. And he said, I want to talk to them. And he said, I have checked all the plane crashes that has happened in Iran in the past. He said to me that I'm sure they have attacked the airplane. And I was like, Really? And he said, yes. So that was the beginning of the friendship.

AHMED: Everybody knows me. They called me [unintelligible] maybe some people doesn't know my name. When I reassemble lego and play with them on.

[Persian speech]

MAHMOUD: At the first day, actually, I saw Shahim on the news when somebody asked him, how do you feel? Shahhin said. What's the feeling? What feeling? And I couldn't remove my eyes from the sky from that moment because I could feel it in my heart what he's going through. And then Mahmoud. I went to the memorial in the very last minute, five minutes we hugged and he whispered in my ears, You're the only person that know my feelings. I can still remember your voice in my ears the way you said it, that you didn't want anybody to hear that, just me.

SHAHIN: They didn't even know each other's name. This tragedy, actually has made us very close friends. And this is so priceless, I think. We have learnt how to share our stories, how to share or grieve, tears, sorrows and even our smiles sometimes.

[Persian song]

MG: The fathers of Flight 752, they were speaking with our producer, Samira Mohyeddin. She's preparing a full documentary about these fathers and their bond and mourning and seeking answers for the killing of their loved ones. That is The Current for today and for this week. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to the programme. Have yourself a great weekend. Q is up next on CBC Radio One. They'll be speaking with one of the folks behind the very funny programme, Letter Kenny, maybe the funniest programme to come out of Canada since SCTV. Perhaps before we go, we wanted to give the last word this morning to the late, great Alex Trebek. His final Jeopardy episode airs tonight. Alex Trebek, as you know, died in November, but he recorded a final message, one of hope. Here it is.

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You'll recall that about a month ago I ask all of you to take a moment to give thanks for all of the blessings that you enjoy in your lives. Now, today, a different kind of message. This is the season of giving. I know you want to be generous with your family, your friends, your loved ones. But today I'd like you to go one step further. I'd like you to open up your hands and open up your heart to those who are still suffering because of covid-19 people who are suffering through no fault of their own. We're trying to build a gentler, kinder society. And if we all pitch in just a little bit, we're going to get there.

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