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AIH Transcript for January 06, 2021

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

CAROL OFF: Hello, I’m Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I’m Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

CO: All the president's menace. A pro Trump mob stormed the U.S. Capitol today — overwhelming police, halting the certification of Joe Biden's victory and threatening the democracy they claim to support.

CH: Mob ruler. We reach a Republican strategist who's calling out President Donald Trump, saying his failure to condemn his supporters actions is a dereliction of his duty.

CO: Fifty pro-democracy activists are rounded up in Hong Kong, but our guest says he's not too worried about being the next one arrested — because that's already happened to him four times.

CH: Shoptalk. A grocery store manager and Revelstoke, B.C., says 70 per cent of his customers this winter were from out of town. And that's causing tension in a town that relies on tourism to survive.

CO: Willie Wanky. A Danish TV critic, says the country's latest provocative program is classic Denmark — which doesn't quite explain how a children's show about a man with a surprisingly long and independent penis made it to air.

CH: And... something's wrong, he can feel it in their buns. A New York man files a class-action lawsuit against a company that makes Hawaiian sweet rolls — because they may be sweet, but they're definitely not from Hawaii.

CH: “As It Happens”, the Wednesday edition. Radio that finds an unlikely roll model.

Part One: Capitol Hill: Katie Simpson, Capitol Hill: Bonnie Watson Coleman, Republicans: Scott Jennings

Capitol Hill: Katie Simpson

Guest: Katie Simpson

[Sound: There’s a loud bang and lots and lots of crowd cheering.]

[Sound: A second bang. Cheering intensifies]

MAN: [shouting] Move back! Move back!

MAN#2: [Shouting] Watch out! Watch out! Watch out! Watch out!

[Sound: A third bang is less audible as the tape fades down]

CH: We reached Katie Simpson in Washington.

CO: Katie, this was just an extraordinary scene that you were in today. Hearing that sound, it’s though we're in a war zone. Can you describe what we're hearing?

KATIE SIMPSON: Well, in that piece of audio that you had there, that's when the first flash-bangs happened up on Capitol Hill. Many of the protesters had actually been quite a distance away. They'd been over at the Washington Monument to hear a speech from the president. And then they marched through the streets of Washington to reach the Capitol. And there have been a series of barricades set up that the protesters, they weren't happy about that. So they ripped them aside, these large metal barriers. And then they rushed the steps of the Capitol. Police were easily outnumbered, and they didn't have the resources they needed to keep people back. And that's when they had to use those flash-bangs. That's when they had to use tear gas. We even saw some police using rubber bullets to try and push people back. But we all now know that that certainly was enough. Police were easily outnumbered, and these protesters were able to push their way up the steps, break windows and even actually make it into the Capitol itself.

CO: And as each step of this happened, first of all, just how... how awestruck people were to see them even get over those barricades. And then they were on the steps. And then they were in Congress. They were in the rotunda, then they were in the chambers. Describe what it was like to see that progress?

KS: The thing about today is the anticipation for this protest. There being a bunch of protests in D.C. since Donald Trump lost the election. A number of them are pro-Trump. And there had been anxiety before those protests. But there was a different level of anxiety before this one. The mayor had urged people not to bring weapons because there had been some sort of intelligence that the mayor's office and police had received that there was a threat of violence, people were going to bring guns. And the National Guard was activated in ways that the other Trump protests hadn't been. So there was a real sense of anxiety going into this protest, to begin with. So to watch the worst-case scenario unfold. It was shocking, but not necessarily surprising. These people truly believe in their hearts of hearts that this election was stolen and that they're trying to save democracy. They truly believe the president when he says that this election was stolen, and they believe the conspiracy theories and the claims he makes without evidence. And so there was a lot of tension going into this. And then to watch it slowly progress, the actual tension on the Hill, and what it went from, a protest to a violent storming of the Capitol, it actually happened much faster than these things typically do. People first pushed to that first barrier, then took the steps. And then they climbed the scaffolding that’s been set up for Joe Biden's inauguration. And then they pushed and pushed and pushed past police. And police, we saw them turn around. The visuals are incredible. They turned around and ran. They had to run from these protesters.

CO: And we're calling them protesters. But really, it's a mob, isn't it? And so what was it like? When they got into the building, what did they do?

KS: So, at that point, I couldn't physically see them going in because I had to actually run back to the station. But our camera crew was there. And they captured these remarkable scenes of people celebrating, standing on the front steps. But from the outside, you could see protesters standing, waving flags. As I kept backing away from the Capitol, I was… [chuckling] I was physically running the tape back to our office because there's no cell phone signal there. That's how many people were at this protest. So as I'm running down Pennsylvania Avenue, back to our bureau with this tape in my hand, you could see the crowd getting bigger and bigger. And that's when you could see plumes of smoke. Tear gas had been set off by police as they tried one last stand to stop this from happening.

CO: They were... they marched. They flooded into the rotunda, through the hall of statues, into the chambers. They sat on the days in the Senate. They they went into Nancy Pelosi's office, pictures, taking pictures of themselves, leaving notes for her, “We will not back down”. Threats all over the place. I mean, could you ever imagine in all the years that you have covered Washington that you could ever see scenes like this?

KS: Well, this is... the Capitol is the home of American democracy. And so the storming of the Capitol is incredibly symbolic. And there had been so much concern that the president's behaviour after the election when he refused to accept the results, there had been sort of an attitude from Republicans, some Republicans saying, you know, what's the harm in letting him have a temper tantrum? Let him have his time. He'll come around. It'll be fine. And these... these people didn't necessarily think that things would escalate to this point. As I mentioned, these people, these Trump supporters truly, truly believe what they watch on Fox News, on... on OAN, on Newsmax, these right-wing news outlets where they... they air these conspiracy theories. And it led to a situation where there's not a common set of facts in America right now.

CO: It's one thing to be standing in a protest making speeches of that nature. Another thing to do what we saw today, isn't it? I mean, we know that for days, if not weeks, there have been calls on social media to come to Washington, to bring your weapons, this is how are you going to break through the barriers, this is how you’re going to get into the buildings. This crossed the line into insurrection.

KS: I've gone to these Trump protests before and Trump rallies as well. One of the criticisms that they have for Black Lives Matter protesters and other protesters in the United States. They say, you know what, you look at those protesters and there are rioters in there. And they're burning things down. They want to destroy the country. And they're... they're... they're... causing damage. And they make the argument that we want to build America up. We don't want to damage anything. We don't want to cause any harm. We don't want to do that kind of thing. We want to protect the country. And today, we saw these Trump supporters stormed the Capitol, break in to the building. One person has been shot. Police officers have been injured. People broke into the speaker's office or in the chamber. So this is a day in American history that it will be a very dark day in American history. The day that Trump supporters stormed the Capitol.

CO: You have, I know, walked up, [cuckling] probably in more cases than not, ran up those steps of Congress. You've been in those rooms. You know what it feels like. You know, not just the security, but the grandeur of it. The sense of something profound in those rooms and in that... in the in the Capitol buildings. So just for you personally, what was it like to see this happen in a place that... that this is held with such reverence?

KS: When you're watching one of these chaotic scenes unfold, and this one was certainly remarkable. This is supposed to be the world's greatest democracy, and it's going through one of its greatest challenges in terms of upholding democracy. When you watch what's unfolding in real-time, you really there isn't time to process information. It's what's happening next? What's happening next? And it's such an intense moment. The only thing you're thinking about is, do we need to get out of here? Is it safe? And for this to be happening at the seat of American democracy, when you just think about that at that moment, that journalists, other people who are, you know, police or people who are Capitol Hill staff, lawmakers, they're inside this building, and they're having to have a moment where they have to decide, is it still safe to be in here, in the seat of American democracy? And they had to evacuate the vice president. And so it says something about the state of American democracy when you have to question your safety at such a symbolic location.

CO: And I guess you're going to have to... it's going to sink in at some point when you when you finish your coverage and you start to realize what you were actually watching today in that building?

KS: It will be one of those moments where you look back on the days of your career. And because this is such a remarkable event that just unfolded. And it's not done yet. There's a curfew, the National Guard’s coming in. But I don't think this is done yet. I think that this could be going on for quite some time. So this will be one of those days in your career when you look back of the days that you can't believe you witnessed history firsthand. And this is just one of those days.

CO: Katie, stay safe. And thank you.

KS: Thanks.

CH: Katie Simpson is the CBC's Senior Correspondent in Washington and that is where we reached her.

[Hard transition. No music]

Capitol Hill: Bonnie Watson Coleman

Guest: Bonnie Watson Coleman

CH: Bonnie Watson Coleman was in the capital when the protesters moved in. She's a Democrat representing a district in New Jersey. We’ve reached her in Washington.

CO: Representative Watson Coleman, just first of all, where were you as this mob first started to swarm Capitol Hill?

BONNIE WATSON COLEMAN: I first was trying to get into my office. And I was stopped by the Capitol Police, and told they were evacuating that building. So I made my way over to the actual Capitol building. And I was actually walking down the hall when I saw a cluster of Capitol Police and some people who were pushing through the police. There was a disruption there. And I was directed down another hall. And I went into an office. And we locked down. And that's when we heard all the commotion outside.

CO: Can you describe that?

BWC: It was just... it was loud. And really, only thing discernible was “USA, USA, USA”. Other than that, it was just, you know, the clamour of a riotous group.

CO: And could you look out the window? Could you see what was going on outside?

BWC: Um, we had the television on. We could see some of the things that were outside. But the doors that were locked did not have any windows.

CO: Wow! Were... how many people were with?

BWC: One, two... five of us.

CO: Were you scared?

BWC: Um, well, I knew [chuckle] it would be very difficult to get through those two doors that we were behind. But I wasn’t unsettled because, I mean, it was startling. This doesn't happen in United States of America! We’re a democracy! You know, we're a nation of reason, and debate, and discourse, and disagreement, but not this kind of domestic terrorism, which was exemplified today in the behaviour of the people that came here. They came here with violent intentions. And they've been incited by the president of the United States.

CO: It's also just one of the most protected buildings for a good reason. It's an extraordinary place, usually with a great deal of security. Could you ever imagine that it was possible that a mob could break into your... into... into Capitol Hill, could break into the building, go into the hallways, right into the chambers and... and occupy them?

BWC: Absolutely not. That was incomprehensible. And there are a lot of questions that are going to be asked once we settle down and finish our business here. But there will be a lot of questions moving forward because it makes no sense to me that they could come into the Capitol.

CO: And we've also seen for days, if not weeks, on social media that the sites that were calling for people to come to Washington, to bring their weapons, instructions how to break down barriers, all of this. The police must have seen this as well. How is it, do you think, that police seem so unprepared for this?

BWC: You know, these are the questions that we are asking each other as we sre being held in different rooms. It certainly was echoed in the various platforms. But it was also... it was also encouraged by the president of the United States of America. It was also encouraged by a member of Congress. So, I mean, it's not like the police force should have been caught off-guard here.

CO: What are you hearing from your colleagues? Because some of them were tweeting that they were just deeply traumatized by what they saw and what they experienced. What are they telling you?

BWC: Everybody is alarmed, concerned, caught off-guard, startled by what happened. This is just un-American. I don't know how else to describe it. If we saw this happening in some other country, we would say that this was a coup. This was a coup. It failed! But it was a coup. And it was fraught with all kinds of violent intentions. And this is a problem that we have now. And it has been fuelled by the president of the United States of America. And that no matter what, he's out of office on the 20th of January. And Joe Biden and Kamala Harris will be president and vice president.

CO: How do you think this looks to the rest of the world?

BWC: Well, I think that the rest of the world has been watching what this country has devolved to under the presidency of Donald Trump. I would think that the rest of the world is thinking what the heck is happening in the United States of America, a country that we look to for inspiration in how to run a... a republic that is representatives of different ideals and still respectful.

CO: At the moment when this began, the... what was going on in Congress was the group of Republicans were trying to to slow down or thwart the certification of the election of Joe Biden. You're about to go back in and attempt to finish that certification. Do you think that your Republican colleagues may have been sobered by this, that any of them have changed their minds about that obstruction?

BWC: I hope so. I pray so. I think that this... this had to, even just by their sensibilities of what could and would happen, this is quite extreme. So I would certainly hope that we can continue on with the collecting of the electoral vote count from the respective states and get on with business. Because, at the end of the day, there's nothing they could do to stop Biden and Harris from taking office.

CO: Just finally, that Mr. Trump tweeted later, or he made a statement that these are things that happen when a sacred landslide election victory is viciously stripped away from great patriots who have been badly treated for so long. Remember this day forever. Do you do you worry that Mr. Trump is going to remain in office for the next two weeks?

BWC: I think that he be removed from office under the 25th Amendment to the Constitution, but I don't think that will happen. I think that it ought to be clear that he should never, ever, ever be able to serve in any capacity in the United States of America.

CO: I know you've got work to do and a long night ahead of you, Representative Watson Coleman. Thank you.

BWC: Well, thank you for reaching out. Bye-bye.

CH: We reached Democratic Representative Bonnie Watson Coleman in Washington, D.C., just before Congress returned to counting the electoral votes after the lockdown.

[Hard transition. No music]

Capitol Hill: Mitch McConnell

CH: Moments before President Trump's supporters breached the U.S. Capitol, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell stood on the Senate floor and denounced his Republican colleagues' efforts to prevent Joe Biden's certification as President-elect.

MITCH MCCONNELL: I’ve served 36 years in the Senate. This will be the most important vote I've ever cast. President Trump claims the election was stolen. The assertions range from specific local allegations to constitutional arguments, the sweeping conspiracy theories. I supported the president's right to use the legal system. Dozens of lawsuits received hearings in courtrooms all across our country. But, over and over, the courts rejected these claims, including all-star judges, whom the president himself has nominated. Every election we know features some illegality and irregularity, and, of course, that's unacceptable. I support strong state-led voting reforms. Last year's bizarre pandemic procedures must not become the new norm. But my colleagues, nothing before us proves illegality anywhere near the massive scale... the massive scale that would have tipped the entire election. Nor can public doubt alone justify a radical break when the doubt itself was incited without any evidence. The Constitution gives us here in Congress a limited role. We cannot simply declare ourselves a national board of elections on steroids.

CH: Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, urging his Republican colleagues to accept the election outcome in Washington, D.C. today.

Republicans: Scott Jennings

Guest: Scott Jennings

CH: But within minutes of that speech, President Trump's supporters had stormed the Capitol, and security forces were overwhelmed. Scott Jennings is a Republican strategist and commentator — and a former advisor to George W. Bush. We reached him in Louisville, Kentucky.

CO: Scott, people are calling what they saw on Capitol Hill today a coup. What would you call it?

SCOTT JENNINGS: Well, I initially called it an insurrection. And frankly, the fact that the United States military and all of the other agencies at the disposal of the federal government, the fact they haven't put down this coup, this insurrection is a failure of leadership by the commander in chief. I cannot believe how easy it was for these terrorists, which is what they are, to occupy our most important buildings. The signal it sends to us as Americans and the signal it sends to our enemies around the world is horrific. It is a disgrace. I'm ashamed.

CO: As an American who has spent... you spent your career in politics, and you've been on those steps, and you have been in Congress, you've been in the Capitol buildings. What emotions are you having as you watch this scene?

SJ: I was so angry today. I was shaking, sitting here watching this. I couldn't believe that… I can't... I can't believe how easy it was for them to do it. I can't believe they haven't been put down. My emotions are disbelief. I'm ashamed, I’m embarrassed, I'm angry. This is not who we are as a country. And then, you know, of course, just this morning, there was a big rally, and the president's own lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, was saying we need to have trial by combat over this disputed election. The election was lost. Republicans should condemn this violence and condemn this insurrection. Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley should withdraw their objections. The fact they haven't done that yet is a disgrace. I mean, so many emotions, but mostly anger, and embarrassment, and just complete disbelief.

CO: It sounds like your anger and embarrassment isn't just for what you saw outside, and to see that mob and what they're doing, but anger at your fellow Republicans inside who were in the process of trying to slow or even stop the certification of a legitimate election in your country.

SJ: Yes, look. I have not supported this course of action. You know, I'm a Republican. I've been a loyal Republican my whole life, someone who's been defensive, frankly, of President Trump and a lot of the things he's tried to do over the last four years. But the election was lost. And to go and tell people that it was stolen, to tell people that, I mean, even today, in his video, Donald Trump is still claiming he won by a landslide. That is just a falsehood that incites people to do crazy things like storm the U.S. Capitol. The fact that Cruz and Hawley, for their own personal political ambition, propped up that statement, it's disgusting to me. And it has real consequences. They keep saying, oh, you know, we can't change the outcome. This is a protest against voter fraud. It's not a protest. Turn on your television. Does that look like a legitimate protest to you?

CO: You just mentioned the statement that President Trump did issue to his... to the crowd outside, the mob. And so I just want to play a bit of that and get you to respond to it. This is what he had to say to his supporters this afternoon.

DONALD TRUMP: I know your pain. I know your hurt. We had an election that was stolen from us. It was a landslide election. And everyone knows it, especially the other side. But you have to go home now. We have to have peace. We have to have law and order. We have to respect our great people in law and order. We don't want anybody hurt.

CO: And he say... he went on to say, we love you, you're very special, but go home. What do you make of that?

SJ: Well, I view these people as domestic terrorists. I view them as insurrectionists. I view them as people attempting to overthrow the U.S. government. And to say that we love you to terrorists, to me, is not and not something the president of the United States should say. I thought this statement was a complete failure. I thought it was half-hearted and wholly inadequate. He's right to tell them to go home. But when you couch it in everything else, and you qualify it, [voice rising] and you continue to pour fuel on the lie that caused the uprising in the first place, it's counterproductive. And so I just think the president has failed. Losing a single election should not cause this sort of outburst. It is not the action of the world's greatest democracy. It is... it is outrageous, shameful.

CO: But President Trump is not alone in this. He's had enablers. And the people who supported him, the people who are in Congress today saying that this election was fraudulent, saying that it had to be not certified, people who have supported him within his cabinet, but many of the Republican congressmen who are supporting him. So are they not enablers of this man and what he has done?

SJ: Anybody who is tonight... I guess the Congress is going to reconvene, and they have to, you know, they didn't finish certifying the election. They need to do that as quickly as possible. Anybody who after this outburst goes down to the floor and continues to give us some lectures about Rutherford Hayes and Samuel Tilden. And, I mean, that's garbage. It's baloney. Withdraw your objections. This is over. We have to have a peaceful transfer of power, which is now no longer possible. This presidency will forever be known for and stained by this day.

CO: What happens to the Republican Party now? After what we saw this afternoon, this is the kind of perhaps the... the end, the final scene of just extraordinary Republican response to an election. And very divided party at this point. How do you pull this party together? What future does it have?

SJ: The party cannot exist if it refuses to accept the basic boundaries of a democratic society. And the basic boundaries are we have laws, we have a Constitution, and we have elections. And the outcomes of those elections have to be respected by the winners and the losers. I mean, that's the basic fundamental principle of... of our system. And so if the party doesn't want to adhere to those principles, I don't know... I don't... I don't even know. That doesn't even register for me on the American political spectrum. So, to me, the party only has a future if it wants to exist inside the boundaries of normal American democratic guardrails. And for the people who want to operate outside those boundaries and be terrorists and be insurrectionists, well, I hope they're arrested and go to jail for a long, long time for what they did in the U.S. Capitol. They desecrated our government today. That's not a political act. That's a terrorism act.

CO: Just finally, there are those who are questioning whether Mr. Trump should be left with the levers of office in these last 13, 14 days. Do you think that there are reasons to say something should happen, something... he should be stopped from holding office at this point?

SJ: It's a great question. I pondered it all afternoon. I truthfully don't know what the right answer is. I know that in this moment, I feel like today was a complete failure of presidential leadership. It was a complete failure of the commander in chief and his responsibilities to preserve, protect and defend the U.S. Constitution. So I think you’d have to forgive any of us for wondering whether this person can execute in the duties of this office and occupy it for the next two weeks. I mean, they've put down this insurrection tonight. What's going to happen? Are we going to go through this every day for two straight weeks? I surely hope not. His response today was inadequate. I mean, remember, he took an oath of office to preserve and protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. I didn't see any preservation, protection or defence of the Constitution today.

CO: Scott, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

SJ: Thank you.

CH: Scott Jennings is a Republican commentator and former advisor to George W. Bush. We reached him in Louisville, Kentucky.

[Hard transition. No Music.]

Capitol Hill: Joe Biden

CH: Two weeks before he'll be inaugurated as the 46th President of the United States, Joe Biden spoke this afternoon from a stage in Wilmington, Delaware.

JOE BIDEN: An assault on most sacred of American undertakings, the doing of the people's business. Let me be very clear. The scenes of chaos at the Capitol do not reflect a true America. Do not represent who we are. What we're seeing are a small number of extremists dedicated to lawlessness. This is not dissent. It's disorder. It’ chaos. It borders on sedition. And it must end now. I call on this mob to pull back and allow the work of democracy to go forward. You heard me say before in different context, the words of a president matter, no matter how good or bad that president is. At their best, the words of a president can inspire. At their worst, they can incite. And therefore, I call on President Trump to go on national television now. To fulfil his oath and defend the Constitution and demand an end to this siege. To storm the Capitol, to smash windows, to occupy offices, the floor of the United States Senate, rummaging through desks. On the Capitol, on the House of Representatives, threatening the safety of duly elected officials, it's not protest, it's insurrection. The world's watching. Like so many other Americans, I am generally shocked and saddened that our nation, so long the beacon of light and hope for democracy, has come to such a dark moment.

CH: U.S. President-elect Joe Biden today. We’ve got more on this story on our webpage, at: www.cbc.ca/aih. And we’ll continue to follow this developing story. For the latest news, go to: www.cbcnews.ca.

[Music: Ambient]

Not Hawaiian rolls lawsuit

CH: "Your Honour, every time my client opened a bag of King's Hawaiian Rolls, he would whisper 'Aloha' to the buns within. But it turns out he could just have been saying, 'hey, buns' or 'how's it goin'.' Because we have learned that these rolls — which claim to be Hawaiian — are, in fact, manufactured in California. They're supposed to be sweet — but for my client, they're bittersweet at best." Look, I don't know how Robert Galinsky's lawyer is going to argue his case. All I know is: Mr. Galinsky, of Yonkers, New York, is upset that King's Hawaiian Rolls aren't made in Hawaii. So upset that he's filed a lawsuit. Hawaiian rolls are buns that are sweet enough to be dessert, but not so sweet you can't eat them with dinner. And King's Hawaiian Rolls is the most popular brand. "Established 1950," it says on the package, "Hilo, Hawaii". Robert Galinsky says that suggests they were manufactured in Hawaii. But the company was just founded in Hawaii — and moved to California years ago. Therefore, he says, the label is fraudulent. And he says consumers pay more for King's Hawaiian Rolls because they've been misled about where they're baked. He wants the label changed, and he wants unspecified damages. And maybe he's right, and maybe he'll win. But if he does, expect a deluge of suits against the companies that make Swedish fish, Neapolitan ice cream, and Vienna sausages.

[Muisc: Hip-hop]

Part two: Hong Kong mass arrests, Danish penis show

Hong Kong mass arrests

Guest: Lee Cheuk Yan

CH: This morning, activists in Hong Kong felt the full brunt of the controversial new national security law. A thousand police officers took part in coordinated raids and arrested more than 50 pro-democracy advocates and politicians. They are accused of trying to "overthrow" the government. The activists say all they did was try to pick candidates in last year's elections -- which ended up being postponed. Lee Cheuk Yan is a pro-democracy activist and a former member of Hong Kong's Legislative Council. We reached him in Hong Kong.

CO: Mr. Lee, these early morning raids in Hong Kong are just extraordinary. Did anyone anticipate such a police action?

LEE CHEUK YAN: This is very absurd and totally unpredictable. And that's where the fear part come in. You know, how can we predict that, or expect that, you know, they can use National Security Law subversion to charge those who participated in the primary election.

CO: Just before we get to what they have been arrested and charged for doing, maybe describe what you know as to how... this has involved more than a thousand police in Hong Kong. They raided 72 premises. Tell us as much as you can about what happened this morning?

LCY: What happened this morning is suddenly, you know, 1,000 police was deployed to all the participant in the primary election and some of the coordinator of the primary election. And then, they, you know, arrest everyone in handcuffs and get them about and try to search in the premises. We do not know what they want to search for, but then they search it, and then arrest them, and then get them to the police station for interrogation. Now, they are still in the police station, and we do not know when they can come out.

CO: When you say you've mentioned this, the primary election, that's what they... this seems to have been why they were arrested and accused of trying to overthrow the government. What exactly was this primary that... that they were running back in July?

LCY: Supposedly, there should be an election in September last year. And so before the election, the pro-democracy camp try to organize a primary election, so that we get to choose the best... the best candidate to represent the camp, so as to look for a majority or the highest optimum number of people getting elected. So it's all a preparation to get as many seat as possible in the election. And that's all, which is very normal in any society. And then, they postpone the elections. And the absurd thing is that the police say that is like you want to... you are driving a car intending to rob a bank. Come on! You know, driving a car is not a crime. And no one is robbing anything. You know, we just want to get a... get a... go to the bank to open an account. And that's a crime?! It is so absurd now!

CO: What they have been arrested under is this extraordinary National Security Law that has been very ill-defined. No one really knows how sweeping it is, what it’s jurisdiction is? It's... it's just… it's quite an extraordinary law. And Chinese authorities had said that when introduced it that it would be... might target only a handful of activists. So what message are the authorities sending by the sweeping arrest this morning?

LCY: The National Security Law is trying to put a message to frighten the people, you know, so that they can rule by fear. So you can never know what exactly what action in Hong Kong, what freedom you are trying to exercise will result in a crime under the National Security Law.

CO: These activists who have been arrested, many, if not most of them, are very young. And even though they're so young, they're already veterans of having been arrested before for their political activity. But some of them are being arrested for the first time. How difficult do you think this is for them, especially given that the penalty under this law can be life in prison?

LCY: Yeah, I think they... they must be frightened, which is normal. Because, you know, suddenly you get arrested and with such a law that is, you know, can... can be sent to China, and can be life imprisonment. So it is so frightening. And then, now they're still in police station. And do they not know what will happen tomorrow? Will they have to go on trial already? And... and in some cases, that happened to some of the arrested people is that they were put on custody for months before they get on trial. And so we may not be able to see them out. So no one knows what exactly will have them tomorrow. And imagine how that frightened some of the people that innocently believe that they just want to change Hong Kong, fight for democracy.

CO: Just finally, do you worry that you might be targeted next for arrest?

LCY: I was already arrested four times, so I'm going to face four trial this year. So I... I think I will have to go to jail with four trial coming, which I don't think I can get away from it. But there may be other charges. I do not know even whether speaking to foreign press can be a label as collusion with foreign power? We do not exactly know.

CO: Is it possible that this interview we're are doing right now might lead to you being arrested under the National Security Law?

LCY: We do not know, you know, because collusion with foreign power. Is this interview part of the collusion? And like what happened to Jimmy Lai, the founder of Apple Daily. He.. he accepted some foreign media interview in Hong Kong. And then, he... he was being charged with collusion with Colin Powell. You can see the... the threat they are using. And, you know, Hong Kong is more and more like China now with all the China human rights defender being harassed or arrested. And now, Hong Kong opposition, anyone that fights for democracy is being harassed, similarly to what happened in China, it is now happening in Hong Kong. And... and so the basic law, the promise of autonomy, the signing of the British joint declaration all being thrown in the rubbish can.

CO: Mr. Lee, I appreciate you speaking with us, given that it might carry consequences for you. And... and thank you for telling us the latest news.

LCY: Yeah, thank you for having me. And we hope that everyone can understand the situation of Hong Kong.

CO: Yes, with your help. Thank you.

LCY: Thank you.

CH: Lee Cheuk Yan is a pro-democracy activist and a former member of Hong Kong's Legislative Council. He's in Hong Kong. For more on this story, go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

CH: A city councillor on Vancouver Island went to Mexico last month. And she's not apologizing for travelling. Along with her civic duties, Kiara Kahakauwila runs a limousine company with her husband in Metchosin, BC. And when a colleague invited them to a destination wedding, they decided they had to go — even if they were going against pandemic travel warnings. Yesterday, some of her constituents found out, and they weren't happy. But Ms. Kahakauwila told the CBC she's adamant that she made the right decision.

KIARA KAHAKAUWILA: I hear what they're saying. You know, what.. what I did in hindsight, if it offended and upset people, I get that. And I am sorry for that. It's... you know, we made a decision based on what we were facing as a business. It was a decent-sized wedding. It was probably bigger than it would have been allowed here in Victoria. It was one that the majority of people there are industry colleagues of ours from mostly from the U.S., a little bit from Canada and a few from... from other places. It was an event that had several high... high-profile members of our industry that we do business with. And so when we were debating whether or not to go; the trip had been planned for quite some time, it was you know, we weighed obviously the public health orders. We weighed the numbers that were happening in Mexico at the time. If we could properly quarantine here, especially just before Christmas. So we took all of those factors into account and made the business decision to travel on the trip. It's hard, whether I'm an elected official or not. It's really hard for any business owner right now to be able to look at what's happened over the last ten months, and what's probably going to happen over the next six months to a year. So I hear what they're saying about asking, you know, demanding basically for us to resign. And I think at this time, it's... it's heavy-handed. It's a hard thing for... for local politicians to do, you know, to go about our daily lives. And, you know, if we if... if.. if. I were to resign or anybody else or resign, it would spark and, you know, a by-election, which is expensive, and which also could lead to other factors, which, you know, which could increase the community spread, which is what the problem is right now is community spread versus travel spread. It's so... you know.

GREGOR CRAIGIE: So you're not resigning, is the upshot?

KK: No, I'm not. I... I... have spent a lot of time representing my community. I stll feel I can represent my community. I spoke with my mayor last night about it. And, you know, it... was it a moment of lapsed judgement, perhaps? Again, it was one that was made with the interest of our business in mind. You know, our business is our job. I don't have, other than being municipal councillor, which isn't really high-paying, especially for the District of Metchosin. And we do this because we love our community. And, you know, I... so if we lose our business, that's my job. And with... with the business comes other jobs of our employees. So it's... you know, that was my focus at the time.

CH: Kiara Kahakauwila is a councillor for the District of Metchosin on Vancouver Island. She spoke with Gregor Craigie this morning on CBC Radio's "On the Island".

[Music: Indie rock]

Danish penis show

Guest: Ida Rud

CH: John Dillermand is a peculiar fellow. He never wears shoes. He walks around in an old-timey full-body striped bathing suit. Oh, and he can do extraordinary things with his outlandish penis. The premise of a new Danish children's television show is predictably facing a lot of criticism. Mainly about the fact that its hero, Mr. Dillermand, seems to have no control over his unwieldy member. It paints murals, it walks dogs, it stop cars from crashing, it hoists flags, it steals ice cream cones — all of its own accord. Ida Rud just watched the whole series this weekend. She's a film and TV critic. We reached her in Copenhagen.

CO: Ida, how on earth does a TV show for preschoolers about a man who cannot control his magic penis... how does that even get past the pitch stage?

IDA RUD: [laughing] I think it's a very Danish way of making children television, where there's kind of no rules as long as no one is getting hurt. And if it's silly also, I mean, that's just a plus. So I think that's why we're kind of laid back in some ways, and also like to have, like, a dark sense of humour. And also to cause a bit of an uproar. So, of course, I don't think anyone is surprised that the show caused an outrage. But maybe the criticism that it was so huge was a bit of a surprise.

CO: [laughing] OK, so and speaking of huge, [IR laughs] this is the issue, right? Can you describe this character?

IR: Yeah. [laughing]

CO: First of all, what... his name's John Dillermand, the character in the show. And this is a cartoon.

IR: Yeah.

CO: And what does that... what is Dillermand? What does that mean?

IR: It's kind of like Wienerman, so like a childish term for penis with the man attached to it. So Weinerman. So the name itself is enough to make children laugh. [CO cuckles] Because any time you say wiener, it's funny because it's a bit. I mean, it's silly, and it's a bit forbidden. And he walks around with an old-fashioned bathing suit, like the red and white striped bathing suit, and then he lives with his great grandmother, who's this old conservative, a bit scared, lady, like, put that away, John. You can't go showing your penis. You can't use that to pick apples. You can't use that to walk the dog. But the penis has a mind of its own, so. [chuckling]

CO: OK. [chuckling] Oh, gosh. [IR laughing] What does some of the things that John Dillermand, John Weinerman, what is, first of all, what does his penis look like?

IR: Well, it's... if you wouldn't... I mean, if you don't understand the language, and you just saw a trailer for this show, I don't think you would know it was a penis. You would think it was a tale of some sort because it's just a red and white stripes, just like his bathing suit. And it's just very long, slim tail kind of like. There's no scrotum. There's no pubic hair, there's nothing realistic about this penis. So, I mean, it's just kind of his tail, and it's a short and long, and sometimes it's just you can't see it.

CO: OK, so he can do... he does some heroic or his penis does some heroic things, but the penis gets him into trouble from time to time, doesn’t it?

IR: Yeah, because the great grandmother is telling him that he can't use his penis for all these things, like walking the dogs or fishing and stuff like that.

CO: I know there are people in Canada and the United States are listening to this and knowing there is no way this could be made anyplace else. [IR laughs] But it is true that there are people in Denmark who think that they shouldn't be made. What criticisms of this show have you... have you seen?

IR: Well, there's, like, two camps. And the one is the obvious one with parents who are appalled that some would have a grown man’s penis on a kid's show because the show is for kids aged four to eight. So it's the small children. And they think it's perverse. And they think it's a gateway for paedophiles to groom their children. So that's one of the, like, one of the obvious critiques. But the other is we're in Denmark in the midst of our second #MeToo wave. And because of this, people are like, why do we always have men like, oh, the penis is doing it. I can't... it's not my fault. The penis has a mind of its... of its own. I shouldn't be at fault for this. Kind of like maybe grown men abusing their power in #MeToo relations. So that's the other critique, like the feminine…. I'm a feminist myself, but when I saw the show, I didn't think of this at all. I just thought it was hilarious and silly. But I'm just hoping that the second season or the third season or a completely new show would have a female lead character with a vulva [laughing]

CO: A magic vulva. [IR still laughing] But as you point out, there's nothing sexual about this.

IR: No.

CO: And that kids at that age especially think that penises and vaginas and vulvas are hilarious, right?

IR: And also, yeah, that's exactly what I'm thinking. And I also think it's important that children don't feel inhibited by their body, the sexuality. I mean, it's too early for children at that age to... to feel awkward about having a penis or having a vagina. But in time, in Denmark, we have a lot of problem with children and young adults who feel insecure about their bodies. They don't shower after having gym in school because they don't want to be seen naked. And I think this show is actually helping in that regard because it's nothing to be ashamed of being naked. And I've also been debating maybe this criticism about gentlemen being offensive, being bad. There may be small boys who will see or hear about this because children pick up things like this and maybe feel, oh, I am bad for having a penis. My penis is bad. And I think that's the... I mean, that would be the worst thing to happen from... from this debate. I think debate is good, but.. but it's... it's become really ugly.

CO: But this is not the first time that Denmark's public broadcaster [IR chuckles] has made a show with... controversial children's show, right?

IR: Yeah, yeah, no, no, we have that often. We have a guy called Mr. Shrimp, who is who likes to play heavy metal, and who at some point, encouraged children to become Satanists. And people were very offended by that as well. And also, with the nudity, we have a show where grown-ups take off their clothes in front of a bit older children than four to eight. But, like, they invite school classes in, and then people with maybe disfigurement or who are transgender or… or obese or something like that, they show take off their clothes, and then the children are allowed to ask them anything they want.

CO: Wow! The Danish way! [both chuckling]

IR: The Danish way. I mean, to show them basically that there's nothing wrong with the way you look. If you have weird knees, or are missing a limb, or are transgender, or whatever it could be. I mean, there's nothing wrong with you.

CO: I'm not expecting to see any of the broadcasters in North America pick up the rights. So we'll have to watch it is Danish. [both laughing] Ida, it's great to talk to you. Thank you.

IR: You're welcome.

CO: Bye.

IR: Bye-bye.

CH: Ida Rud is a freelance film and tv critic in Copenhagen. That's where we reached her.

BC COVID tourism

CH: The ski resort town of Revelstoke, BC, relies on tourism to survive. That has made this winter a difficult one — especially with the local health authority now identifying the region as a hotspot for COVID activity in the province. That puts local business owners in a tough spot. Cody Younker manages a grocery store there. He's also a city councillor in Revelstoke. He spoke with CBC's Radio West.

CODY YOUNKER: I've just been asking people at the cash register, oh, where are you from? And mind you, most people don't want to say, which obviously just tells me they're not from here. But yeah, I had people coming through yesterday, six guys saying they were here from Manitoba, and they're here snowmobiling for the week. And I was like, aren't you concerned about COVID? And it's pretty bad here. They're not concerned at all. And that's really frustrating to hear that.

SARAH PENTON: You said 70 per cent of the people at your grocery store don't live in Revelstoke?

CY: I would say 60 to 70 per cent of the faces coming through the store right now are not locals that I could identify. And as Revelstoke being a small town, you know, most of your faces, especially when you work in a store like a grocery store, you know your customers. It's worrisome, you know? I mean, I feel for the businesses, the accommodation sector especially, you know, they're all trying to stay afloat, keep people employed, people need to work, that kind of thing. But it's also very worrisome that, you know, so far, we're lucky that it hasn't gotten into any of our long-term care facilities or the hospital or independent senior living communities here. But, you know, one case gets in, and it could be dire consequences and result in fatalities. And that's... we don't want that to happen. So the fact that people are coming here to ski and they think that's essential travel is so stupid. I just... I don't understand it.

SP: And what are you hearing from other folks around town?

CY: This is pretty much the same thing. It's all over the Facebook groups, local community pages, like everybody... it's a catch 22. Everybody understands. They want people to stay employed. They want our small businesses to survive. The hotels to be able to stay open. But they also don't want people to come here if you really don't have to. And if you do, I mean, we ask that you really follow the rules. We are seeing most people following the rules, at least when they come into the grocery store at least. But I think the overall feeling amongst most of the community is just like, just stay away, just don't come. Let's just get through this. The quicker we deal with this, you know, the sooner we can reopen and get back to life as it was or close to what it was before this whole COVID pandemic.

CH: That's Revelstoke city councillor and grocery store manager Cody Younker. He was speaking with the CBC's Sarah Penton.

CH: Chuck Stacey urging people to wear a mask in a video taken from his hospital bed on Monday. The 50-year-old Florida man contracted COVID-19 after comparing the virus to the flu, and opting not to wear a mask.

[Music: Sombre]

Eric Jerome Dickey obit

Guest: ReShonda Tate Billingsley

CH: Eric Jerome Dickey's fans probably can't imagine the world without his books. He wrote dozens of them. "Sister, Sister." "Friends and Lovers." And "Cheaters" — to name a few. And many were adapted for stage and screen. Mr. Dickey died on Sunday. He was 59 years old. And he left an indelible mark. But things could very easily have gone another way. That's because before becoming a novelist, he was an engineer. And that's the kind of career change that comes with a few bumps. But fortunately for his readers, Mr. Dickey wouldn't be deterred.

ERIC JEROME DICKEY: Whenever you tell someone you're going to do something else, they always give you the side eye. Because no matter what you do, they only see you as capable of doing one thing.

HOST: That's true. People put you in a box.

EJD: Yeah, well, I used to do stand up comedy at night. A lot of... a lot of the cats who were comedians, male and female, during the day, they were engineers, they were doctors. So we have the day job, and then we have the thing that we do in the evenings at night that really becomes our passion that we pursue. That we put a lot of... you have to invest in yourself more than you want other people to invest in you.

CH: Eric Jerome Dickey, speaking with Arise Entertainment in 2015 about the winding road that led to him becoming a bestselling writer of books about Black life. ReShonda Tate Billingsley is a fellow author, a fan, and a friend of Mr. Dickey. We reached her in Houston.

CO: ReShonda, first of all, I'm sorry for your loss.

RESHONDA TATE BILLINGSLEY: Thank you. Thank you. It was heartbreaking, it really was.

CO: What was it like to hear Eric just now talk about the commitment he has to being a writer and to, I guess, being a human?

RTB: Yeah, I felt a flutter in my heart to hear his voice, and I felt myself immediately get sad. But then I could hear Eric in my ear going, really?! You know, you have work to do. We got to keep moving. And so that brought a smile to my face.

CO: How did you come to know Eric?

RTB: So I was a fan, and I met him at a book signing and told him that I was working on a book. And he just immediately became an encourager. And that's how he is with all authors. So it wasn't just someone going to see a fan. He brought you in and made you a friend.

CO: The books were... are extraordinary, aren't they? [chuckle] They're just... just such adventures. They're romantic. They're sexy. They're mystery. They’re about crime. His range was extraordinary, wasn't it?

RTB: It absolutely was. He had womens’ stories, especially black womens’ stories. But then he had, if you wanted, the more espionage, gritty-type stories, the Gideon series. So he covered all of those bases and he just created a fan. So those of us that loved him, his writing, that knew him, we loved him as a friend and we were fans.

CO: When you mention that he wrote about women and had female characters. This is something that is really one of those remarkable things about his work. Because right from the start, his first novel, “Sister Sister”, told from the points of view of Black women. [chuckling] And this is something men are really careful about this. But he went right into it. And what response did it have?

RTB: I think that because he just... he's a student. He's always a student. And always observing, always learning. So he was able to capture the Black womans’ voice and then translate that onto the page. And when he did put it on the page, we saw ourselves in his stories. We saw our everyday trials and tribulations outside of the typical historical and slavery Jim Crow-type stories we were used to seeing. We were able to see everyday lives and issues reflected in his books.

CO: He said in an interview about this... he was often asked about how he was able to get inside the heads of women and Black women characters. He said, I actually get inside their heads and develop them from the inside out. I read a lot of female magazines. I watch my friends, my female friends. I watch my girlfriends, the little bitty things they do. I listen to things they say. And a lot of times, I read between the lines. Did you ever feel that you were material?

RTB: [chuckling] Oh, you were always material because he was a consummate student. So when you talked to him about anything, whether it was writing, whether it was life, you knew that he was taking away something as well. He may be giving you gems and pearls of wisdom to deal with life, but he was taking away something as well. [CO chuckles] So our stories and our actions were inspiration for his creativity.

CO: Now, he... also that he... he took the stories of Black people out of the sort of the standard tropes and... and... and conventions. Roxane Gay tweeted that... that his were some of the first novels that she ever read about Black people that weren't about slavery or civil rights. And that he was such a great storyteller. Did you find that as well?

RTB: Absolutely. And that's one of the things that... that drew us in because growing up, most of us read the stories about slavery and the historical novels. We read those type of novels while we were in school. But it wasn't until we got Terry McMillan and the Eric Jerome Dickey-type books that we were able to see, OK, our stories are more than those... those... those stories. There's a whole world of daily issues that we deal with, and we're now seeing them in books. And Eric captured that.

CO: He also was a master at writing sex scenes, right, pretty steamy stuff. And I'll read you another tweet that I remember sneaking around with my copy of “Friends and Lovers” in middle school like it was contraband. Secretly reading an Eric Jerome Dickey novel was a teenage rite of passage for a generation of Black Americans.

RTB: Yes, my nieces were fifteen and fourteen. And before they were with me for the summer, and I wanted them to get away from the TV. And I said, go find some books to read. And I gave them Toni Morrison and Ernest Gaines. And I looked up a few hours later, and they were in the garage reading Eric Jerome Dickey. [CO laughs] And they were like sneaking reading it. It was like contraband, but they loved it. And it ignited a love of reading for them.

CO: What was it like to have him in your corner as a friend and mentor?

RTB: You know, it was just an amazing feeling because he was such this powerhouse in the literary world. It was nothing for him to take an unknown author and promote him… promote that person to his legion of fans. So that speaks volumes. And what would happen is I have a lot of fans that say they were introduced to me because they read Eric Jerome Dickey books. And it ignited a love of reading. Or he suggested me... he'll tweet out other authors to his... his fan base. So he's always been a supporter. For me, he took it a step further. He was like a big brother. There was an incident where he was in Los Angeles, and he called and said, why didn’t you tell me your book, “The Pastor's Wife”, was a movie. And I said, well, it's not. And he got furious because he had just passed the street vendor who was selling a bootleg copy of a book... a DVD that had my book cover on it. So Eric turned around and raced back over to the man and said, you will not try to steal her talent. And just to see him fighting thousands of miles away from me was just phenomenal. But that was the type of man he was.

CO: And what happened with that DVD seller?

RTB: And so the DVD seller was like, well, I got these from a distributor. I mean, it's a bootleg. It was my book cover. We don't even know what was on the DVD, but Eric just bought them all up. [CO laughs] He said, Look, man, here's what we'll do. I'll just buy these so you don't sell them to somebody.

CO: What a great friend, and what a great writer, and what a great loss. ReShonda, thank you.

RTB: Thank you so much.

CH: ReShonda Tate Billingsley is an author, and friend of the late writer Eric Jerome Dickey. She's in Houston. Mr. Dickey died on Sunday. He was 59 years old.

FOA: Ingmar Bergman films

CH: The contest is called "The Isolated Cinema" and it's not too late to enter. If you like being alone in a lighthouse. Last night we told you about the Gothenberg Film Festival's plans to send one lucky person — or unlucky, depending how you see it — to a lighthouse on a remote island where they can watch movies from the festival, all alone. And at one point, Carol told Jonas Holmberg, one of the festival's organizers, what the scenario reminded her of.

CO: Because it is Sweden. I mean, Ingmar Bergman could make a movie out of someone watching all these movies. I mean, it's something… [both laughing] there's something very sort of “Seventh Seal” about all this. Have you tried it? Have you actually isolated yourself for seven days in the lighthouse and watched movies?

JONAS HOLMBERG: No. But what I have done is Ingmar Bergman was the honorary president for our film festival until he passed away. And now, his house, which is also on an island, on a small island not as remote as this one, but there, his had his house is now turned into a place where you can have residency for artists or filmmakers, etc. And once, I had residence there. So I stayed in one of his houses for one week, and writing and watching films. So I think that's actually the most close I have got to this experience.

CH: Now, Ingmar Bergman is, of course, the legendary Swedish master of cinema who explored themes of repression, loneliness, morality, and mortality, and much more. He died in 2007. And last night's interview reminded us of another interview, also from 2007, with Joe Queenan — a writer who took on a daunting project: to watch the entire Bergman canon — all 38 films — in one sitting. He lived to tell Carol the tale.

JOE QUEENAN: An editor from The Guardian called me up and said, would you like to look at all of Ingmar Bergman's movies? And I said, yeah, sure, why not? It really wasn't the sort of thing that you would normally advise people to do, to watch 38 Ingmar Bergman movies in the middle of the winter. But I did.

CO: So why did you agree to do it then?

JQ: Ingmar Bergman’s a god in my book, in the same sort of way that I don't know that, you know, Elvis Presley is or something like that. I mean, when I was a kid, when you got to the point where you started watching Ingmar Bergman movies, then you were an adult. It was exhilarating to see those movies for the first time. And what was interesting was when I saw “The Seventh Seal”, which was 1968, I think when I was a freshman in college, it already had this aura of greatness about it. It was a classic in the same way that “Casablanca” was a classic. And yet, at the time it was only about 11 years old. I saw persona and shame at the time that they came out. And even though they were brand new movies, in part because they were in black and white, but also because they were so serious and so beautiful, they already seemed like classics.

CO: So when you were watching these films in your... in your youth, I'm wondering, returning to them, revisiting them now in your 50s, how do they look?

JQ: They look fantastic. I had never seen the early ones. He had made 16 movies before he made “The Seventh Seal”. And no one today is ever going to be able to make more than three or four movies that don't do anything commercially. Once you've made three or four movies, if you haven't clicked, you're done. He started making movies in 1944 during the war. And “The Seventh Seal”, I think, is 57. So he had literally been around for 13 years making movies before he really made a movie that everybody paid attention to. And it was thrilling to watch this apprenticeship. Having never seen these early movies, it was thrilling to see that there are things that he does in his early movies that he will do for the rest of his career, the way he sets up shots, the way he loves to use mirrors. And the dominant themes over and over again are that women and men make life a hell on earth.

CO: [laughing] I mean, how funny did Bergman ever get?

JQ: In terms of ha-ha-ha funny, [CO chuckles] the only time he ever actually tried to make a real sort of rib-tickler was this movie, “All These Women”, which was his first colour movie. And which is interesting because it's literally all of his women, because all of his old girlfriends are in this movie. And I don't know how he did that? [CO chuckles] I mean, he was sort of shuttling Harriet Andersson off the stage while he's bringing Bibi Anderson in, and he's getting rid of Bibi Anderson while he's getting lLiv Ullmann in. And yet, they’re in these movies together. It's a great idea that he went with the depressing themes rather than the funny things, because I don't think he was ever going to be… he wasn't going to be the Marx Brothers, let's say that. [CO laughs] But there's some early movies, like his fourth movie, “Music and Darkness”, starts with a scene where a young Swedish soldier climbs up onto a parapet at a firing range to rescue a... a snow white puppy. And, of course, the machine guns go off, and the puppy gets away safely, but he's blinded for life. And I mean, I just think that's riotously funny [CO chuckles] when you put it in the context of all those movies. It's macabre.

CO: Now, you conclude your article with a description of “Sarabande”, which was the final film where a 61-year-old man kisses his 19-year-old daughter on the lips before slitting his throat and wrists and quaffing a bottle of sleeping pills. And you said you shut off the DVD player and went out for a long walk?

JQ: Yeah, I've been walking for days. [CO laughs] I mean, it's really funny that when I finished the project, one of the things that I wondered was, what will be the next movie that I see? I probably wasn't going to start right away on Fellini or Kurosawa, Eric Rohmer. So I went out and watched “300”, which is the movie about the Persians invading Thermopylae. And that was great because that is certainly one of the stupidest movies I've ever seen. [CO laughs deeply] It’s this homo-erotic beefcake movie where men in underpants fight guys covered with bling. And it's completely ridiculous. But it was a great, great way to just sort of go into a decompression chamber and come up from watching the Bergman movies.

CH: That was writer Joe Queenan speaking with Carol in March of 2007, about how he watched all 38 of Swedish director Ingmar Bergman's films in one sitting.

[Music: Pop]

Italy COVID knitter

Guest: Sarah McLean

CH: Among the solitary hobbies people have taken up or gotten back into since the start of the pandemic is knitting. Canadian expat Sarah McLean is one of those people. She lives in Florence, Italy. But she's not making scarves or mittens at the moment. She's using coloured yarn symbolically — to mark the number of Italians who've died, fallen ill, and recovered from COVID 19. Sarah McLean picked up her knitting needles in March — never imagining back then how much the time her project would demand. We reached her at home in Florence.

CO: Sarah, how much time did you spend knitting on this project today?

SARAH MCLEAN: Only about an hour, but I'm behind. I'm only... I just finished the end of November, and I've got, what is it... thirty six days behind in data. So I think that's another probably four hours a day of knitting, times 36.

CO: And when you say you're behind, just maybe describe what you're behind in accomplishing?

SM: Well, in March, I started creating a knitted graphic of Italy's COVID cases. I use three colours of the Italian flag, white in the centre to show those who were identified as being positive with COVID, green to show those who were cured and red to show those who had died. I thought that it was easier for me to conceptualize them if they were rounded... rounded to the nearest hundred. So if there were 400-and-some people who had died that day, that became five stitches. Or if there were 20-thousand people who were cured, that would be 200 stitches. So I started knitting this graphic with a little white chain in the middle to show those who had been identified as though with COVID. And then I had added the other colours as they went in. And each row of knitting represents a day. And I was able to keep this up as a daily project and stay quite current with the date until November when the numbers became a bit too big, and I started to fall behind.

CO: Wow! To see it, there's pictures of it, and we’ll post it on social media. It’s huge! And so each of those stitches representing lives, lives of people survived people who died. What does it feel like to look at all those, I guess, the data, those numbers, but to see it in the completion of your work?

SM: It's very humbling, especially since my family and I became part of the knit as well. We all were identified as having COVID in November. And we were very fortunate. We had mild cases. And when you're knitting something that is on a country scale, and this is only Italy, it's not the rest of Europe, it's not the rest of the world. And you realize each individual stitch, which takes less than a second to.. to knit, is 100 people. And it's taking me hours to get this every day. And my family and my friends and everyone I know in Florence and in Italy who's had COVID, we're not even a single stitch.

CO: Can you actually find in all the knitting, your stitches that you stitched in your family when they got ill?

SM: Well, I’ve started to use embroidery floss to mark both the beginning, the end of the months just to keep track of where we are in the project. And also, to use little strips of embroidery floss for family and close friends who've had COVID. And I put a stitch marker in to mark the first day that they were diagnosed with it. And I weave it up the side. So far, I've been lucky and people have come out on the green side of the... of the work.

CO: Why knitting? Why did you decide to mark it this way?

SM: Well, there's a tradition in knitting, and I think in probably other textiles crafts of showing... showing information as well as creating comfortable sweaters. So I had heard about temperature blankets, which people show say a year's worth of temperatures by marking the highest temperature in different colours. So if the weather was cold that day, they might choose a blue. If it was warm, it was more of a yellow or green or a red or depending on the aesthetic of the knitter. And they could create a record of this data. And I've been interested in this... this concept with climate data. My husband works in climate change-related fields, and I made a scarf for him, showing the changes in Italy's average temperature from 1900 to 2018. So when COVID came, I was interested in seeing how you could use colour and also, in this sense, the number of stitches to show other data, in this case, a pandemic.

CO: And it's extremely effective. Maybe just describe for people what it looks like, because it's not, as you say, it's not a sweater, it's a sculpture. Maybe just... it’s a very interesting shape.

SM: It is. And it's been a bit of a guessing game to see how it's going to change as months go by, too. It's... it's not been a very intuitive thing to knit and to predict. But it starts with... with a small white crochet chain that goes about the length of my thumb, up from the bottom. And then it just blossoms or metastasises… I'm not quite sure what words you want to use to describe it into a ruffled, almost like a saucer-shaped shell that's about the size of the platter. And it's got a border on the lower left side that is green, that has always been thicker than the red on the other side. And then it narrows, tapers off for another, oh, several centimetres before just exploding. And it grows arms, it grows ruffles, it's... it looks a bit like an octopus or some other sea creature when it's kind of sprawled out onto my floor.

CO: It's quite wonderful and massive. And how much of your... of your house is this taking up now?

SM: [laughing] Too much as far as my... my family is concerned. [CO chuckles] But I take pictures of it every day when I finish. I used to photograph it on our dining room table, which comfortably seat six people and can seat eight at a pinch. Now, it's too big for that. So it's... it's definitely photographed on the floor. [chuckling] And it can't be laid flat, unfortunately.

CO: I was going to say it's beautiful, but it's also very sad. There is a feeling of tragedy around it. How does it affect you?

SM: I think it's been a way for me to process what's been happening, very literally in the case of knitting. It's been sobering to see how big it is, but it's in a way of making it much more concrete and comforting, even if one can say that about a large knitted object that represents a pandemic.

CO: Can you envision the last stitch, the end of this project?

SM: Yes. Yes. I've been trying to look ahead to what it's going to look like once the cases diminish, once the green side expands, once, hopefully, the red side disappears. And I imagine it's going to taper off, perhaps gradually, but then ever more until a small chain of, you know, green, white and red stitches at the very top.

CO: It's a tragically beautiful work, Sarah. And I really appreciate you telling us about it. Thank you.

SM: Thank you very much, Carol.

CO: Bye.

SM: Bye.

CH: Sarah McLean is a Canadian living in Florence, Italy. She's recording Italy's COVID deaths, recoveries and illnesses, through knitting.

Bison grocery store guy

CH: It wasn't an ordinary trip to the grocery store. It was something better. Something bolder. Something more cinematic. With the sun shining behind him, and through the crisp winter breeze, Joel Lybbert trotted into town to pick up a few things — on his bison. Mr. Lybbert made a video of the ride, which recently went viral, obviously! Here he is telling the story to CBC Calgary this morning.

JOEL LYBBERT: You know, I've always thought riding a bison was kind of the pinnacle of awesomeness in the cowboy realm. And I had the opportunity to get a bottlecalf. So Indie, he's my bison, and he was an orphan. So I raised them up from… he's coming three now this year. And I've been riding him for the last year, and figured, you know what? I really need to [chuckle] get him out there. People love seeing it. And I was like, OK, I have a checklist of awesome videos I want to do, and going to the grocery store was on the top of the list.

ROB BROWN: OK, let's rewind for a second. How exactly did you train Indie to accept you in a saddle up top him?

JL: From an early age with him, I handed him lots, saddled him lots. And one thing I always made sure was I kept real good ground manners with him. I wanted to just make sure there's a lot of respect there because bison are quite wild and can be aggressive. And when they're in captivity, or like bottle-raised, they aren't afraid of people. So when they start getting pushy, it can be a problem. And that's why I really focussed on just creating a relationship of respect between me and him. And I feel like that's gone a long ways.

RB: I got to suggest you're a bit wild yourself for even considering this. I've been up close with these majestic beasts. They are as intimidating as they look. You were never concerned about getting tossed or trampled?

JL: Not too bad. I know ‘em pretty good, but I wouldn't tell a stranger to hop in the pen with him. [RB laughs] I'll just say that.

RB: I got ya! That’s your baby boy. So how long of a ride was it to the store, and ticking off that video checklist?

JL: It's about three kilometres from my place to the store. And, I'll be honest, if I rode all the way there, it would have been probably a three-hour ride. He's a pretty slow mover. And so I... I rode most of the way, and kind of had my cameraman driving my truck and trailer. So there's a little secret behind the scenes. We didn’t ride all the way to the store.

CH: That was professional horse trainer Joel Lybbert speaking with guest host Rob Brown on the "Calgary Eyeopener."

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January 06, 2021 Episode Transcript

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