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The AIH Transcript for December 30, 2020

Hosts: Helen Mann and Talia Schlanger

Prologue

HELEN MANN: Hello. I'm Helen Mann, sitting in for Carol Off.

TALIA SCHLANGER: Good evening. I'm Talia Schlanger, sitting in for Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

TS: Tonight:

HM: Task force. The head of Ontario's COVID-19 Vaccination Task Force says it was a mistake to pause shots over the holidays and he's working to speed up distribution. We ask an infectious disease doctor what it will take to pick up the pace.

TS: Immunisation in Canada may be slow, but news from across the pond is giving many a boost. The U.K. has approved the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine and expects to give it to a million people a week starting in January.

HM: There's no place like home for the holidays. Unless you're Ontario Finance Minister Rob Phillips, who spent his Christmas pretending not to be vacationing in St. Barts, a rush that quickly proved bad news travels even faster than him.

TS: Tree-ead between the lines. We revisit Carol's conversation with novelist Michael Christie about how the unlikely experience of cutting down a tree planted the seed for his novel "Greenwood."

HM: The sprawling family epic takes readers as far back as the Dust Bowl, but its environmental call to action is decidedly now.

TS: And disorder of Canada. Punk rocker Art Bergmann is rocking the boat with his appointment to the Order of Canada. He calls the country a work in progress and hopes his message will strike a chord. As It Happens. The Wednesday Edition. Radio that's not for the faint of art.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Government needs to step up and vaccinate people faster, says doctor

Vaccine delays

Guest: Allison McGeer

TS: COVID-19 vaccines are arriving in Canada, but there is increasing concern that it's taking too long to get them into Canadian arms. And other countries are showing us up. Israel says it's now vaccinated more than 10 percent of its population. In Canada, the number is just a fraction of one percent. The pace is even slower in Ontario, where the person in charge of the vaccine rollout has apologised for a holiday halt to the lifesaving shots. Dr. Allison McGeer is an infectious disease specialist at Toronto's Mount Sinai Hospital. We reached her in Toronto.

HM: Dr. McGeer, it seems like the COVID-19 vaccine rollout is going too slowly. Is it?

ALLISON MCGEER: Yes, it is. You know, no question that we're not doing as well, particularly as the UK and the United States in terms of delivering the vaccine. And the vaccine is incredibly useful when it's in people's arms, but it's no good to us at all in the freezer.

HM: What is causing these delays?

AM: As always, it's a bunch of factors. I think it starts with we weren't really expecting to get vaccines in December at all, and so we were caught unprepared. It's complex because the vaccines we've got have to be kept in the freezer. It's been difficult because we've been uncertain about how much vaccine we're going to get in the next period of time. But all of those things, honestly, are things that we should have thought about and we should have been able to get past. And we're still using way fewer doses than we ought to be using every day.

HM: Well, yesterday, Rick Hillier, who is heading up the Ontario vaccine rollout, said that he's working on a plan to be ready when the larger shipments of vaccines start to arrive. I mean, was it your understanding that they were planning for this earlier -- again, why isn't it happening by now?

AM: You know, I think in truth, the people have been so focused on getting through today and tomorrow that we've not done as much advance planning for anything in the pandemic as we technically ought to have done. But, yeah, we clearly did not do the advanced planning that we needed to do for this. And, you know, the UK is running at least five, maybe 10 times as many doses as we have. And we're not even close to using up the doses we have, never mind the ones we're going to get in the next week. You know, at the rate we're going, it's going to take us probably three weeks to get through the doses that we have in freezers today. And we have more coming tomorrow and a lot more coming next week. And we really badly need to up our game. And, of course, what you'd like us to do is up our game in areas that matter, as opposed to just getting rid of vaccine doses, right. It's not just about getting vaccine doses into people's arms, but getting them into the right arms -- the ones that are going to protect us from deaths and serious illness, the ones that are going to help to stop transmission.

HM: When you look at a place like the UK or Israel, what does that tell you about what they're doing right -- what the lessons are for us?

AM: I think, first of all, they planned ahead. I think, secondly, they have used the experience, they've taken advantage of existing structures, which we have not done for our vaccine program. They've been more willing to make good decisions for public health rather than hewing to exactly what the manufacturer says about what the manufacturer would like done. But mostly, I think it's just been about preparedness and about using existing structures. And we have done neither of those things.

HM: On Monday, we spoke with Dr. Nili Kaplan-Myrth she's an Ottawa family doctor and she says she and her colleagues are not only ready and willing to jump in and do what's needed they signed up to do some months ago and have never been contacted. Why aren't these kinds of resources being maximised?

AM: I don't know. You know, the correct answer is I think people have been worried about the logistics of frozen vaccine. People have been worried about control over vaccine supply. People have been worried about getting good data about vaccination, about people coming back for their second dose. Those are all reasonable concerns. But, you know, the UK has demonstrated you can make it work. And I honestly don't understand why we can't in Canada.

HM: I'm hearing today some doctors saying that they've learnt they're not to be engaged until stage three of the vaccine process. So it sounds like you think that should be rethought?

AM: I do think, you know. I think we have a number of choices. We have public health units. Toronto Public Health runs mass vaccination clinics that do 2000-3000-4000 people a day. They've done it on a routine basis. They've done a couple of hepatitis A ones in the last ten years. But they have a process. They know what they're doing. Our public health units are used to doing this. We could ask them to do it. Our family physicians are used to delivering vaccines. We could ask them to do it. We could sign people up to support public health with mass vaccination clinics. There's a long list and we're talking about doing all of that. And it's not that we're not going to do it. It's not that we can't rise to this. It's just that at the moment we're not successfully using the doses we have. And so that immediate problem needs to be fixed. And at the same time as we're fixing that problem, we need to be working on how are we going to grow that so that when we have many more doses available next week, the week after, the month after that, we can successfully vaccinate people.

HM: Right. So if we are looking forward, I mean, right now there's a lot of finger pointing going on. But if we get beyond that, whose job is it to be looking at this bigger picture? How can we improve logistics quickly?

AM: To my mind, what we need to be doing to improve logistics quickly is to be using existing structures that we have to deliver vaccines. And a piece of that is about being willing to transport the Pfizer vaccine frozen, which we have so far not been willing to do. A piece of it is getting more people working together. A piece of it is just catching up with some things we haven't done. You know, we've told nursing homes that we want them to vaccinate everybody, but we've not provided them with information for their staff or residents they can use. They've all had to invent it. So, you know, somebody who knows how to run vaccination programs needs to be in charge of the process, in my view.

HM: So does that mean that you think Rick Hillier isn't that person?

AM: I think Rick Hillier is clearly very very good about logistics. But as Tom Frieden said about vaccination programmes for COVID, it's not a logistics problem. It's a vaccination program with logistical issues. And we're having trouble, I think, putting those two things together.

HM: Dr. McGeer, I really appreciate hearing from you. Thank you so much.

AM: Pleasure to talk to you.

TS: Dr. Allison McGeer is an infectious disease specialist at Toronto's Mount Sinai Hospital. We reached her in Toronto.

[Music]

UK vaccine rollout

Guest: Andrew Pollard

TS: As we just heard, the UK is rolling out vaccines at a breakneck pace. Today, the UK approved the cheap and easy to store Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine. It hopes to start vaccinating up to a million people a week starting on January 4th. Andrew Pollard is director of the Oxford Vaccine Group, which developed the vaccine. We reached him in Oxford.

HM: Dr Pollard, first of all, I should say congratulations on the news of this approval.

ANDREW POLLARD: Thank you. It really is fantastic news after the huge efforts of the year with the team here in Oxford at the university, starting from concept of this vaccine back in January, all the way through to an emergency use authorisation here in December. Amazing year, astonishing achievement for science and for clinical research.

HM: Before we get to the specific news about the vaccine, I want to know what you think about this new push in the UK to get a million people vaccinated per week. What's behind it?

AP: Well, we have currently here in the UK a big surge in disease with this new variant of the virus, which transmits more readily. And so really to try and get ahead of this, we're going into a major lockdown in many parts of the country that weren't already locked down and trying to get doses of vaccine out as quickly as possible. I think this makes absolute sense to try and get ahead of this virus.

HM: What is the strategy behind the new protocol of vaccinating as many people as possible with the first dose rather than withholding the second dose for later use?

AP: Well, the reason for having this extended intervals, there is still a two day strategy. But the extended interval means that you can give a lot of first doses, get a lot more people vaccinated rather than having a short interval and just get a few weeks of vaccinations before you start to use your staff to give second doses as well. And it's really supported by the data. There is no one who is vaccinated who from a few weeks after the first dose who went into hospital or got severely ill, and the overall protection even against the milder disease was about 70 percent. So that first dose gives a pretty big bang. And then the second dose will then boost those immune responses and help durability of the response.

HM: The vaccines by Moderna and Pfizer offer roughly 95 percent efficacy. Why is 70 percent good enough?

AP: Well, what we really need to do with these vaccines to have impact is to roll them out as quickly as possible, as soon as possible to as many people as possible. And so having a vaccine that prevents all of the hospitalisations and severe disease and has 70 percent efficacy that happens quickly can have a huge impact in the pandemic. And so I think we've got very focused on the numbers of 95 percent or 70 percent. For me, any vaccine that I'm offered, I will take because it's absolutely critical for improving public health in this pandemic for people to be vaccinated as soon as possible.

HM: Do you have any evidence yet on how effective this might be against the new strain of COVID-19 that you're dealing with?

AP: Well, so far, the scientific view here in the UK is that this new strain shouldn't interfere with the vaccine efficacy. We are doing work both within the trials, which are still ongoing over the next month to try to assess whether we can see any change in efficacy against the new strain. But also laboratory work is ongoing at the moment to see whether the antibodies, which our trial volunteers are making to the vaccine can kill this virus. So all of these efforts are going on in parallel. We've only had the virus around for a few weeks, so it's still too early to provide that direct evidence. But I think people are quite confident about it in the scientific community that this shouldn't be a problem with this variant.

HM: There has been some criticism about the vaccine and the data around the vaccine after the preliminary results that were released said it was 90 percent effective. And then it turned out, of course, that some people had only received a half dose in their first inoculation. Are you concerned that that error will erode confidence in the vaccine both in the UK and elsewhere?

AP: I think the way that you phrased it is not really accurate in that we've been very transparent in providing all the data. We have five publications already from our clinical trials, but all of the data that we have out in the public domain. And as it turns out, the overall efficacy of the two different dosing regimens, the half dose followed by the full dose and the two full doses from the regulatory assessment looks actually very similar. And they think some of the differences in the numbers that we had are more likely related to dosing interval, which essentially shows that the longer dosing interval may improve immune responses and potentially also the efficacy of the vaccine.

HM: Here in Canada, we are experiencing our own surge in cases. What advice do you have for Canadian authorities about how we should be pushing forward with vaccinations?

AP: Well, I think that we only really have three tools to fight with this virus at the moment. We have treatments, we have physical distancing, and lockdowns as we are experiencing here in the UK at the moment. And those are very effective, but incredibly destructive for society and for economies. And finally, we have vaccines. And vaccines have the potential to get ahead of the virus. Countries like Canada, UK absolutely need to put the other vaccines right at the centre of the planning for the public health intervention to try and control this virus.

HM: You've been working on the specific vaccine for nearly a year now. Can you describe the pressure, the stress on your team and you over this time?

AP: Well, I mean, it is an absolutely huge endeavour. And I think we've all felt that we've had a huge weight on us during the course of the year. It's been a bit like being in a blizzard where the blizzard is the pandemic -- a snowstorm. And the news today of the first regulatory approval does give some respite from this. And I feel a real warmth and a glow today that we've succeeded in getting to this point. But outside, that blizzard is still blowing. And our hospitals, my colleagues are still working very hard to save the lives of friends and families. And I think for that reason, we really can't take our focus off the importance of continuing in our resolve so that we can get to a point where the sun is shining again.

HM: At this point, we can all use every bit of good news. Dr. Pollard, thank you for your work and thank you for speaking with us.

AP: Thank you very much.

TS: Andrew Pollard is director of the Oxford Vaccine Group. We reached him in Oxford.

[Music]

Rod Phillips

TS: On Christmas Eve, Ontario Finance Minister Rod Phillips tweeted a video of himself in front of a fire. There's festive music playing in the background, a gingerbread house, and a glass of eggnog. It's your typical night before Christmas scene in what appears to be his Ontario home. But unless Minister Phillips has found a way to bend space and time, he was not at home on Christmas Eve. The minister left for a vacation on the Caribbean island of St. Barts on December 13th, and now he's been told to return home immediately. Earlier today, Ontario Premier Doug Ford was asked how this happened and when he found out.

DOUG FORD: He never told anyone he was leaving. I did call him shortly after he arrived and I talked to him and asked where he was. He said he was away. I said this is going to be an issue. My mistake, and I take full responsibility. At that time, I should have said get your backside back into Ontario. And I didn't do that. I did talk to him the other day and said, get back here in Ontario as soon as possible. So we'll be talking with him tomorrow when he arrives.

REPORTER: There's a little deception also with this trip because he had pre-recorded messages that he released on Twitter. And he also had a backdrop when you did an interview with...

DOUG FORD: Yeah, no, again, Jamie, this is unacceptable. You know, we're supposed to be the leaders. We can't have a rule for one group of people and, you know, stop the rule and go do something else. I'm concerned about the videos as well on social media. But we'll address it. I can guarantee the people of Ontario, we're going to have a tough conversation when he gets back.

REPORTER: People are requesting or suggesting he should be terminated, asked to leave the Conservative Party, given the fact that there have been people being asked to leave the party before and (for) far less an offence.

DOUG FORD: Well, we'll have that tough conversation tomorrow and I'll be back to the people tomorrow.

TS: That was Ontario Premier Doug Ford answering questions about why his finance minister, Rod Phillips, was in St. Barts over the Christmas holiday while the province was in lockdown.

[Music]

Art Bergmann

Guest: Art Bergmann

TS: This morning, the governor general announced her year end inductees into the Order of Canada. The list includes prominent judges, doctors, and In digenous leaders and one punk music pioneer. In the 1970s, Art Bergmann churned up Vancouver as the leader of The K-Tels, and then The Young Canadians. Now, the Queen's representative in Canada is recognising Mr. Bergmann for his, "indelible contributions to the Canadian punk music scene and for his thought provoking discourse on social, gender, and racial inequalities." We reached Art Bergmann outside Airdrie, Alberta.

HM: Mr. Bergmann, first of all, congratulations.

ART BERGMANN: Thank you very much. I'm deeply surprised and humbled.

HM: What first went through your mind when he got the news?

AB: I thought it was a joke. [Chuckles]

HM: Why would you think it was a joke? [Chuckles]

AB: Because I have been toiling in the underground for years and awards like this are kind of anathema.

HM: Well, the governor general in recognising you says it is for your "indelible contributions to the Canadian punk music scene and for his though-tprovoking discourse on social, gender, and racial inequalities." How does that sound to you?

AB: That sounds great. That sounds wonderful. It's a lot better than -- somebody referred to me in the Edmonton Journal as a generic rock singer, which I take great offence to.

HM: Why?

AB: Because rock singers are generally [censor bleep] if I may use the term, and narcissists and I hope not to be that ever.

HM: In the height of the punk scene, would it have occurred to you that one day you would be honoured with the Order of Canada for being a key part of the punk scene?

AB: No, never, never, ever, ever, ever, ever.

HM: It almost seems counter to what being punk is.

AB: Because we were against the idea of power and power of the state.

HM: What did punk mean to you when when you first came across it?

AB: It meant the ultimate freedom, ultimate tearing down of status quos wherever they might be. It was overblown, as I said before rock music and thinking you're better than anyone else because you play this overblown symphonic crap and no one else is allowed to play it. But people on the street picked it up and made it new. And now it's word on the street for nine dollars with a pair of pants.

HM: When you say it meant freedom. Freedom from what?

AB: Well, at the time, I was just writing songs -- disciplined songwriter and not having any direction, and it taught me that there are things to fight against in this world, and you can use music to do it.

HM: Who were your punk idols? Who first inspired you?

AB: I don't like the term idol. I prefer the term iconoclasts. Like the first time I heard maybe the Sex Pistols it was a mind blowing moment to feel that piss and vinegar coming through the speakers, it was a glorious moment.

HM: It's kind of funny, the Sex Pistols and God Save the Queen, and now you're getting the governor general's award.

AB: Well, I hope to use it as a platform. Does power come with this award? I'm not sure, but I hope to use it to outline several problems we still face as a hopefully progressing nation.

HM: That is actually one of the things that you're being honoured for, fights for social, gender, and racial equality.

AB: Actually, I was radicalised by shows like As It Happens, especially after the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and the Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls Enquiry, which was news to, I'm sure, 95 percent of the nation, and hopefully shocked this out of our revery as this great democratic and free country when we were just another empire.

HM: Where did this activism, this desire for honesty and equality come from for you?

AB: From my mother and father. My dad actually escaped the Russian civil war from Ukraine. And in spite of that, my dad became a small Christian socialist. By the age of six or seven he had us stapling together pamphlets for his union. And that's where I got my first basic education in organising. So I'm not that great of an organiser being a punk rocker at first, trying to destroy organisations.

HM: What would your parents think of you getting the Order of Canada?

AB: The music I made was a mystery to my dad because he was, you know, a classical churchy kind of musical guy, but I'm sure he'd be very proud at this moment. He's gone now.

HM: Your path has probably not always been an easy one. Do you have any regrets?

AB: How could I regret anything? I mean, this is my life. This is what it's been. I'm doomed to getting not much of a monetary reward. And that's okay. That's not the point.

HM: Mr. Bergmann, it's been good to talk with you.

AB: Thank you Helen. It's an honour. I listen to you guys all the time.

HM: Oh, it's a great pleasure for us to speak to you too. All right. You take care.

AB: You too. Bye.

TS: Art Bergmann is a punk musician and a brand new appointee to the Order of Canada. We reached him outside Airdrie, Alberta.

[Music]

Part 2: Encore: Michael Christie

Encore: Michael Christie

TS: Michael Christie's novel, Greenwood, is an unforgettable treatise on trees. It's also an impressive family epic featuring a mind bending timeline that spans generations, a continent and about a century. But to focus too much on its complexities would be to miss the forest, a timely novel that has its roots in Mr. Christie's own experience of family, climate change and the natural world. Greenwood deals with capitalism and carpentry, eco tourism and tragedy and the ties that bind us all. Michael Christie spoke with Carol Off about the novel last year. Here's part of their conversation from our archive.

CO: Michael Christie welcome to the As It Happens show and the studio in Victoria.

MICHAEL CHRISTIE: Thank you Carol. It's a pleasure to be here.

CO: You seem to have taken tree hugging to the level of art in this book "Greenwood."

MC: You could say that. I mean I didn't begin the book as a tree hugger but you know after I wrote the final page I am now a card carrying tree hugger. [Laughter]

CO: Well it's really wonderful. It's a remarkable achievement I have to say. But every part of it -- including just the object of the book itself and the structure. And we don't normally start an interview talking about the structure of a book except that it's so intriguing. Everything is woven into that including the book itself. So how did you come up with this structure? Describe what it is and maybe say how you invented it.

MC: For sure yeah. I mean the structure of the narrative mirrors the rings of a tree. So the cross section of a tree. So it begins in the near future, passes back in time to 2008, back and back to sort of the centre of the narrative tree in the beginning of this particular family that I'm writing about. And then the story comes back out through those same rings again to the near future. I mean I came up with the structure when I was cutting down a tree -- I'm sorry to report, but it was a small tree on our property where we live on Galiano Island in British Columbia. And cut the tree down, it had to go because we were putting in a driveway so it was a difficult decision. And then examined the rings of the tree and saw that you know a stump is a kind of record and is almost a kind of narrative in itself. And I had this -- I'm not a big believer of anyone when they say they had an epiphany but I did and I saw the structure of a story there.

CO: You start with the outer ring and moved to the inner ring which is in 1908. And then go back out to the 2038. And so I want to ask you about 2038 -- that's the outer ring of the tree. And Jake Greenwood who is the character of this family of that generation in this family saga. And her job at Greenwood Arboreal Cathedral. Tell us about her and her job.

MC: Jake is a highly qualified scientist. She's studied you know the inter-communicative mechanisms of trees for most of her life but she's been reduced to being a forest guide in this last remaining old growth forest that remains after something called the great withering has decimated forests and trees all across the world. So her job is to guide wealthy tourists essentially through the trees, describe their wonder and majesty to them, and be paid very poorly to do so.

CO: And these are these extraordinary Douglas firs that anyone who's been out there have seen on the islands at Cathedral Grove which are in some cases well 1,200-1,500 years old, right?

MC: Absolutely and they're towering creatures. They're you know hundreds of feet high. I called the Greenwood Arboreal Cathedral a cathedral for a reason and that is because they do feel like holy places. They have this sense of spirituality to them and awe that visits you when you are there.

CO: 2038 which isn't so far away and all the trees or very few trees are left on Earth after what you just mentioned "the great withering." Can you tell us what that is and to what degree is it an invention on your part?

MC: I mean I dearly wish that I could say it involved a lot more imagination than it did because where I live on Galiano Island the Western Red Cedars which are the provincial tree of British Columbia many of them are Browning and dying due to what people believe is drought stress. So you know a series of droughts has rendered these trees unable to survive. And so it's you know -- it's incredibly tragic. My wife who grew up on Galiano island her name is Cedar. So you know it's something that hits so close to home for me. And so I mean "the great weathering" is not a work of imagination.

CO: So what's left of Earth are great swatches of desert. Most of it's a desert. Most of it is like a dust bowl. And these places -- these last remaining stands of trees -- are where only wealthy people can enjoy them. So not only is this destruction of the Earth part of the story but it's also that there is the class society, there's very very riven, isn't it? It's really just those who have nothing and those who have everything.

MC: Absolutely. I mean it's a dark idea but it's one I think we ought to confront in terms of you know as these wondrous natural places shrink and as the world becomes less habitable you know the resources like water, like forests, like you know livable land are going to become more scarce. And who is going to try to control them but the wealthy and the powerful. And that's happening in my book.

CO: So we don't stay in 2038 as we've mentioned. This is a family saga that goes back through the rings of the story to 1908 and traces the history of Jake's family -- the Greenwood family. Each of these generations has a different relationship with trees. Can you sketch some of those?

MC: Absolutely. I mean it's that's sort of the unifying theme of the book is that each generation -- you know their lives are intimately entwined with trees in some fashion. So Jake is a scientist. Her father Liam Greenwood who's living in 2008 is a carpenter who does reclaimed wood for you know coffee shops and bars -- mostly in the New York area. His mother Willow Greenwood is living in 1974 and she's a sort of a fervent eco-warrior/protestor who pours sugar into the gas tanks of logging equipment to halt old growth logging in mostly in the Pacific Northwest. She also lives in a van for most of her life. Before that, we have the two brothers Everett and Harris Greenwood. They are living during the Dust Bowl in 1934. One of them -- Harris -- is a timber tycoon who is clear cutting massive amounts of forest land across Canada and amassing a huge fortune in the process. And his brother Everett Greenwood who is a survivor of World War One who is sort of a damaged drifter who plays pretty figuratively in this story of the Greenwood's.

CO: And it takes us back to 1908 and their origins. And for anyone who thinks this is just -- okay [chuckles] -- one generation begets the next generation. You completely tear that apart. I mean it has all the qualities of epic but these people, their relationships are so interesting and so unexpected. And as you point out at some point that the way trees are all connected through their roots but they're all individuals and separate. And that's really what you're multigenerational saga does, doesn't it?

MC: It does. I mean in a way I mean there's the overarching metaphor of the family tree. But I try to subvert that in the sense you know that I'm kind of saying that we're all interconnected in a way and whether we are related by blood or not, it is the relationships we build and the ties that we make that is truly what relates us.

CO: So the Greenwood family tree is really a forest.

MC: Oh it's a mess and a forest. It's a messy forest. [Laughter]

CO: You are listening to As It Happens and I am speaking with Michael Christie who is in our Victoria studio and about his new novel -- his fascinating novel -- called "Greenwood." And Michael I want to ask you a bit about yourself. You mentioned that you live on Galiano Island in British Columbia. And you obviously are surrounded by trees. What is your relationship with trees?

MC: It's very close. I mean I grew up in Thunder Bay, Ontario, smelling the mill -- the pulp mill smoke wafting past my house. And I've always been quite connected to trees and to forests and to natural spaces. And when we moved to Galiano we got a little piece of land and decided we were going to build a house. And I in my infinite wisdom decided that I was too cheap to pay someone to do that and that I was going to attempt to do this -- so I did that. We brought some trees down on the property and we had them milled right there and so we built a timber frame little cabin and that's where we live now. And it's lovely.

CO: And these kinds of experiences of yours all work their way into -- they're built into this story. And even this character Liam you mentioned -- this is the 2008 part of this story. Liam reflects that -- because he's a carpenter and he builds these beautiful counters in bars with recycled wood -- he says we think we live in boxes until we look closer and find that we are in fact living in irregular shapes in big misshapen accidents. So does that describe your house?

MC: [Laughter] Yes. Liam would look quite scornfully on anything that I've ever built. I am a hack. I am not a fine carpenter but I can get the job done. And I mean our house does appear square and for all intents and purposes it is. [Laughs] But you know that's one of the beautiful -- I think that's what people like about wooden structures is that they...you know they are not artificial. They are living structures. Wood is you know one of the materials that is closest to our hearts I think as human beings.

CO: The relationship people have with trees in this book and clearly yours as well, it's more than just this sort of pragmatic thing of we need them to recycle the air, we need them to build stuff with, we need them to shield us from the sun. There's a connection -- I am going to say spiritual, I almost said that -- but it's more than. It's vital. It's the vitality of people walking in the woods and feeling this connection with trees that revitalizes them in an essential way. Is that your relationship?

MC: Absolutely. I mean there's all this research now you know that demonstrates that time spent in the trees you know increases our sense of well-being, it actually lowers our blood pressure physically and this is measurable. It doubles our creativity you know. And I think we have structured our society so that we are so still removed from these natural spaces. And only now are we beginning to realize how fundamentally important it is to the human being to be in forests and to be in natural environments. And you know I get to live in one which is wonderful for me.

CO: But you must also see this as an important thing that you must do as a writer because there was a Global Mail article by Marsha Lederman describing the role that art plays during the climate crisis that so many people -- different types of artists are now looking at this environmental issue and incorporating it into their work. Did you feel like some kind of artistic responsibility to incorporate what you're seeing with the trees into fiction?

MC: I didn't at first. I mean this idea for this novel began you know sort of in the way that all of my ideas begin and that's I want to write about a dysfunctional family. [Laughs] You know most of my work centres around that basic kind of idea -- functional and dysfunctional. But as I was writing it and as I was doing research and as I myself was becoming more and more entwined with trees and more interested in forests and carpentry and you know the history of logging in Canada, I became more and more aware that I was writing what could be called an environmental novel in the sense that there is a kind of evolution that takes place -- a sort of a societal transformation that takes place throughout the course of the narrative with respect to you know how we look at trees. And also should be said that in my research you know I was reading John Steinbeck -- you know sort of classic novels of this kind. And in my reading of Grapes of Wrath again -- which I hadn't visited for a long time -- I realized that it's in fact an environmental novel. There's this huge you know environmental calamity that takes place in...

CO: Dust Bowl.

MC: The Dust Bowl. And the Okies are displaced and they become climate refugees within their own country and they're forced to travel to California. And so we can think of these new sort of like climate fiction as a new thing. But in actual truth you know people have been doing it for a long time.

CO: And children are very central to each stage of your book as they would be in kind of dynastic work. But the children -- all of them have this intimate relationship with forests. I'm wondering do your own children interact with the forest in that way?

MC: Absolutely. I mean you know they can't have no choice but to because it's sort of our playground. [Laughter] But yeah -- I mean it's just something that children get. You know they see a natural space and they're just itching to venture out into it. I don't know. It's innate in them. And the presence of my own children -- I have two young sons -- you know in my life has certainly upped the stakes for me in terms of you know the amount I think about the future and the degree to which I feel I'm invested in you know how this whole thing turns out. So my own sort of climate consciousness has been raised by them in the process.

CO: But we're hearing from so many young people. Their feelings of despair. Entire groups -- they're joining little societies of teenagers who are declaring that they will not have children, they will be the last generation because they feel there's no place to bring anybody else -- any other generation -- into it. Are your children aware of that? Are they aware of climate change and how it's affecting your forest?

MC: They are. And you know as particularly my youngest son who is 6 he has a very kind of emotional relationship with animals. He remembers animal facts. He can identify trees. Like he's got a really just sort of strong connection. And you know we'll watch you know Planet Earth, BBC documentaries, quite often and you know the section near the end when you see the polar bear floating on the tiny piece of ice and it can't hunt you know because of climate change, he gets very upset and sometimes we have to kind of turn it off or I'll say okay that's it you know it's over, sort of thing, because it's devastating. And I think that we ought not ignore that. I think that kids are tuned into something that we have built this callous over you know throughout our adult lives and they're right, it is horrific. It is grotesque. And it's terrifying. And it's something that we must manage.

CO: I am speaking with Michael Christie about his latest novel "Greenwood." And this is course As It Happens. When you say that about the despair just how depressing this can be for young people -- what I really admire about this novel is that it's hopeful. It actually doesn't make you feel that dystopian despair that works of fiction like this do elsewhere. And I'm wondering how you managed to do that. Did you consciously say, no -- I'm not going to infect people with the complete sense of suicidal despair after this book?

MC: Yeah. I mean I think that you know books that sort of traffic in you know just sheer outright pessimism are false. I don't think that life is meaningless and we're all doomed and blah blah blah. You know I do see hope everywhere and I see hope in the climate strikes and I see hope in all kinds of initiatives that are coming. And so I mean I think the sort of central idea of the book is that is our interconnectedness. And in every generation of this family there are people reaching out to others. There are people who are sacrificing for others. There are people who are you know falling in love and finding hope in one another. And so I mean the central idea of the book I think is this kind of interconnectedness that we all are part of a human family and only through that kind of thinking and through that kind of collective response are we going to be able to deal with this crisis.

CO: I think also all of your characters are infused with a tremendous amount of humanity -- even the bad guys. And there are some really evil people in this [laughing]. But even they are looking -- the timber tycoons and the rich who are trying to exploit the Earth -- they're all looking for some kind of joy within their lives or love within their relationships. And so I'm sure that's very conscious on your part.

MC: Absolutely. I mean that is what I understand about human nature. I mean I spent seven years working at a homeless shelter on Vancouver's Downtown Eastside. And I came in contact with pimps and drug dealers and people you know who are predatory and people who are you know what you could normally say as evil. But even in them you know you'd see these glimmers of humanity and you know these sort of sad moments where you know either they're reaching out and they're trying to you know connect to their own life and trying to find joy in some small way. So you know that is what I understand about people. I don't think there are any evil villains in the world.

CO: It's such a page turner, right. I mean you have all those things that make book so un-put-downable. The recognition scenes. The "Oh my gosh! Are they related? Are they not related?"

MC: I love that stuff. I mean I love good storytelling. And I love you know that propulsive feeling that you feel when you're reading a novel. And you know I tried to sort of marry that with bigger picture ideas and depth of character and all the good stuff that literary novels do. But at the same time you know it's hopefully a good story.

CO: And there is sex, cross-country chase scenes, lost and found objects -- always a good one. But at the same time what you had to try to avoid -- I would imagine you did because you did avoid it I presume consciously -- that it could have been didactic. It could have been preachy given the thematic basis even the shape as we described -- the structure of the book. How consciously did you try to avoid that?

MC: I mean not too consciously. A novel I kind of think is just a series of balancing acts in the sense that you are trying to strike this perfect balance between doing it and overdoing it you know pretty much over and over and over again. And you know the editing process which was long for this book -- I put an enormous amount of work into it. There were you know hundred drafts. Just like incredible you know revisions, fine tuning. So you just hope that you can get that mix right where you know things are believable and exciting but at the same time human and rooted in life and affecting.

CO: But it is a book with a message. And perhaps we can all extract our own message from it. But what is yours?

MC: It's so hard to sum up a book of this size to one message...

CO: Sorry [laughs]

MC: I mean I'm happy to try. The message of the book is the interconnectedness of all living things -- which sounds grandiose and I apologize but the fact that we are intimately tied to one another, that we are intimately tied to our environment, and we ignore that fact at our peril.

CO: Okay since you are willing to venture yours. I'll say mine. My takeaway.

MC: Please do. I might like yours better.

CO: That we need to have a whole new relationship with planet Earth.

MC: Yes absolutely. And that's part of that interconnectedness. I think this is something that everyone is realizing you know increasingly that we have to radically change how we are living on this planet if we have any hope of surviving. And this book while it is not a didactic argument for that -- you know it is an argument. And my hope is that it would demonstrate the importance of collective type thinking.

CO: We just want to get you to do a little reading. And just set it up for us if you would.

MC: You bet. So I'm going to be reading from the future section of the novel which is 2038. Takes place in the year 2038. And Jake Greenwood who is a forest guide in the Greenwood Arboreal Cathedral has just had a meeting with a man from her past. And he has given her a book that he alleges was the property of one of her ancestors. And I should also say that books and paper have become in short supply obviously after the trees have withered across the planet and so not only is she amazed by this book's relationship or potential relationship to her own history, she's amazed by it as a physical object as well.

MC: [Starts reading] Later that evening, Jake returns to her staff cabin. Pours herself a hefty bourbon and curls into the love seat with the paper book spread in her lap. After five more tours shepherding pilgrims through the cathedral, her eyes are sludgy and unprepared for parsing the book's tricky cursive script. She hasn't seen anyone write in this antiquated fashion for years and never learned the technique in her Delhi elementary school. Just two pages in, Jake's chin begins to dip thereby unraveling the few narrative fibers that she'd managed to weave together. It was silly to get your hopes up, she tells herself rising to place the paper book in her father's old cardboard box filing it away with all her other meaningless family heirlooms. Though she understands this journal is something that ought to have great bearing on her life. Unfortunately for Silas and his scheme, Jake has always mistrusted the expression "knowing your roots." As though roots by their very definition are knowable. Any dendrologist can tell you that the roots of a mature Douglas fir spread for miles. That they're dark. And intertwining -- tangled and twisted and impossible to map. But they often fuse together and even communicate secretly sharing nutrients and chemical weapons among themselves. So the truth is that there exists no clear distinction between one tree and another and their roots are anything but knowable. Jake snaps back her drink and retrieves the paper book from the box, flipping to the inside front cover where she finds facing the first page -- a splash of crudely penciled words scrawled in a child's block print: Property of Willow Greenwood. Despite her reservations about Silas's true motivations and her general bafflement with the book's cryptic entries, Jake's heart takes a little skip at the sight of her grandmother's name however misspelled it may be. And while drinking herself toward a welcome oblivion throughout the evening she wonders about Willow Greenwood and who she was and what impelled her to give her fortune away. She wonders about her father and if he also drank and whether that's what made him troubled. If he did, Jake already forgives him. Maybe she drinks because of his genes or because of his absence. Or maybe his genes created his absence which created her drinking. Or maybe he felt just as unwelcome in the world as she does now. And drinking was the only thing that allowed him any reprieve. Or maybe her roots are all too tangled and there's no single story to be told about any of it. Deep in the night just after she's dragged her cathedral issue comforter over her body and is preparing to pass out, she lifts the paper book one last time and fans its grimy hand-inked pages. How intimately a book is related to the tree and its rings she thinks. The layers of time preserved for all to examine.

CO: Michael thank you and thank you for this book and thank you for speaking with us.

MC: Thank you Carol. It was such a pleasure speaking with you. That was just so fun.

CO: All right. Take care.

MC: You too.

TS: Michael Christie is the author of Greenwood. It's published by McClelland & Stewart. Mr. Christie spoke with Carol about the novel in October 2019 from our Victoria studio.

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December 30, 2020 Episode Transcript

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