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The AIH Transcript for December 15, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CH: Arresting development. Canadian fashion mogul Peter Nygard is taken into police custody, after dozens of women came forward to accuse him of sexual violence.

CH: Family values. A couple in Hungary says they won't give up hope of adopting another child — even after the government adopts a severely restrictive definition of "family".

CH: And …ribbit in the headlights. After a very public nine-year legal battle, a French couple is forced to fill in their pond, because their neighbours find the resident frogs loud enough to put the "amp" in "amphibian".

CH: The emergency signal came in early this morning. Six fishermen were in trouble on the Bay of Fundy. All day, boats, planes, and helicopters have searched for the scallop fisherman aboard the Chief William Saulis. But we go to air, only debris has been spotted in the choppy waters, and two empty life-rafts have washed ashore. Jacob Jacquard is a fisherman who knows the captain and the crew of the boat. He fished on her last season. We reached him in Yarmouth, Nova Scotia.

CO: Jacob, what have these last hours been like for you as you await news?

JACOB JACQUARD: It's hard on me. It's hard on my family. We knew a lot of the guys that were aboard that boat. I fished on that boat myself most of last year. And, actually, three weeks ago, I received a call from the captain asking me if I wanted to go scalloping with him. But due to lobster fishing, open up. And I had a slight lobstering. I couldn't go. So I could have been aboard that boat with them guys when they went down this morning.

CO: Did you know the other members of the crew?

JJ: I knew most of the crew, yes. I’ve ran into the captain. I've never fished with them before, but they were all great guys, all around.

CO: This is the captain is Charles Roberts, right?

JJ: Yes.

CO: Can you tell us about him?

JJ: He knows the boats. He knows the water. He's been out in a lot rougher weather than what was this morning. It's kind of hard to even wrap your head around it right now. We're still all trying to piece it together.

CO: Just trying to get a sense of the timing here, because Halifax search and rescue got the emergency signal from the Chief William Saulis, from the boat, at 5:50 a.m. So what time would they have left the harbour?

JJ: They were actually on their way in. They had been out fishing, and they were returning due to weather. They had a full load on the boat.

CO: And what would that have been like? Just describe the kind of boat it is, full of scallops, in that kind of a sea. Can you describe what it would have been like for them?

JJ: It's weighted down quite a bit. I fished that boat. It was a really good sea boat. That's why we're all trying to piece it together of what happened, why it went down? Because I've been on that boat in rougher seas than it was last night. And it would have been really scary. I believe that most of the guys were probably in their bunk sleeping because when you're coming in to shock out and offload, you want as many hands on deck to get the scallop shocked out as quick as possible. But if the guys were in their bunk, and say a wave hit them and they rolled, they wouldn't have had time to put on anything, really. They wouldn't even have had time to make it up out the cud to get in the wheelhouse, to even get on deck for the liferafts.

CO: But somebody, at least one person would have been in the wheelhouse that might have been able to get out then?

JJ: Yes, he might have been able to get them out or get out it. It's hard to say. I know the guys are strong. A lot of the guys have fished most of their life. I don't know. It's very sad.

CO: If they were able, at least some or one was able to get into an emergency suit, would they have been able, would there be a beacon on that? Would it be a GPS signal that could help find them?

JJ: There isn’t, no you. If you want one of them, it's a personal refurb. You'd have to pick that up yourself and grab it when you're getting off the boat. I know the survival suits are equipped with a whistle, an inflatable pillow for your neck with a mouthpiece you can blow up. And they're equipped with a flashing light. So the minute you put on your suit, and you jump in the water, that light starts blinking. Even with the immersion suits that we use aboard our boats, like they're all certified in that, and they're checked over yearly, even with one of them, with how cold the water is, at this point, them finding somebody alive, it would be very, very slim chances. Right now, it would be more of a search for their bodies.

CO: What do you know about those men who are on board?

JJ: I grew up with most of them. A lot of them are stand-up guys. Best kind aboard the boat. They all know their job. They all know what needs to take place. I grew up with one of the guys. I actually went to church with him as a very young child. I've got pictures of him holding me when I was just a newborn baby, actually. A lot of them have families, children. It's going to be a very sad Christmas for a lot of people. And not just families of the boat, but the whole community. It's one thing when one man goes overboard and is lost to sea, but when you lose an entire crew and boat, it really, really hits the community hard.

CO: This doesn't happen very often, but when it does, it's huge, isn't it?

JJ: It doesn’t. The last vessel that we know of that sank would have been the Miss Ally, which was fishing out of Shelburne or up that way somewhere.

CO: What lasting effect does this have on a community when you have a tragedy like this?

JJ: Guys are remembered for their job. They're remembered for what they've done in the community. And all you can do is pray it doesn't happen again. When you're a fisherman, you know how the job goes. You know, that's a chance you're willing to take. Fishing is by far one of the most dangerous jobs on the face of the earth, is what I consider it. When you untie that boat, there's no chance to say for sure that you're coming home.

CO: And what goes through your mind when you realize you could have been on that boat?

JJ: A lot. Like, I've cried off and on all day, wondering what it would have been like if the RCMP would have showed up at my son's house to notify his mom that I was gone? Or what it would do to my parents? [voice breaking] It's rough.

CO: Does it give you pause before you think you could get on a boat again?

JJ: It does, but it's a lifestyle I've chose. I've been a fisherman for years. And I honestly, I wouldn't give it up for anything. I'm the type of guy, and I know a lot of them guys aboard that boat were the same way. They'd be telling everybody, don't cry if I'm lost at sea. Just know I went doing what I love to do best. Fishing isn't a job. It's a passion. You got to live for it. Down this way, we're a big fishing community, and a lot of guys live on the water.

CO: Jacob, do you have some support for you through all this?

JJ: I do, yes. My girlfriend's with me, the kids, my family. And everybody’s staying pretty close to each other, so.

CO: And you're keeping up on the news as far as whatever you can learn?

JJ: Yes, I’m trying to keep up on it. I've had people messaging me non-stop all day. I've had people message my girlfriend just to make sure I wasn't on the boat. When something like this happens, the community does come together, and everybody supports everybody.

CO: I'm glad you have support. And I really appreciate you speaking with us.

JJ: No problem.

CO: Take care.

JJ: You too.

CH: We reached Jacob Jacquard in Yarmouth, Nova Scotia, earlier today. And when we spoke to Mr. Jacquard, the search for the fisherman was ongoing.

Ukraine report: Goodale

Guest: Ralph Googale

CH: Ralph Goodale says we should learn some lessons from the downing of flight PS 752. Mr. Goodale delivered his report today, in his role as the Prime Minister's special advisor on Iran's shooting down of the Ukrainian Airlines jet, and the 176 people on board. One hundred and thirty-eight of them were Canadians or had Canadian ties. Mr. Goodale's report reviews the Canadian government's response and offers a series of conclusions. Maybe chief amongst them: that Iran cannot be trusted to investigate itself. We reached Ralph Goodale in Regina.

CO: Mr. Goodale, you have concluded that Iran is investigating its own responsibility for this crash, and that does not inspire confidence or trust, you say. Should Canadians have expected a transparent investigation out of Iran?

RALPH GOODALE: Well, obviously, countries would have grave doubts going in. But the international rules set up an investigative regime that works reasonably well if you're dealing with an engine failure or a pilot error, or a weather problem. But when the cause of the disaster is military activity by the country in which it occurred, then you set up a direct conflict of interest with the government responsible for the problem investigating itself. And I think the international community has to give very serious consideration to the way they can modify these rules in the case of military activities.

CO: Sure.

RG: Because the present rules just don't work.

CO: Well, let's talk about Iran specifically, because what Iran has admitted to that it said it was a lengthy chain of human errors and other deficiencies, resulting in a mistaken firing of Iranian missiles at the Ukrainian aircraft that killed all those people. Do you think you'll ever get more than that out of out of Tehran?

RG: Well, we hope to. And that's why I have laid out 21 different sets of questions to try to get further detail as to exactly how this occurred? And the evidence behind that detail to make sure that the story is, in fact, true and that the investigation has been credible and as impartial as it could possibly be. There are two reasons for wanting to be very persistent in determining exactly what happened. Number one, that's the least the world owes to the families of the victims who have suffered such a devastating loss, to get the whole truth. And then, secondly, for the security of the international civil aviation community. If the world is not fully informed and fully satisfied as to what happened that morning in the skies over Tehran, to know what went so horribly wrong, and how it happened. And very importantly, has it been fixed so it cannot happen again? Then how can the world have confidence that that's a safe place to fly?

CO: Is it possible, though? I mean, we know that Iran is an authoritarian regime, but we know that the authority is fragmented, isn't it? Is it possible to get that truth out of Iran?

RG: Well, we certainly have to try. Whether it's possible, that remains to be seen. We've asked the questions. We'll see if they get any better answered than they have been up to this point. We have to try our best for those two reasons, to give the necessary satisfaction and comfort to the families, but also to safeguard civil aviation in that region of the world. And if the answers cannot be forthcoming, then the consequence should be that the civil aviation community would stay away from flying in that region of the world. And that would have very dramatic economic consequences for Iran, directly flowing from the fact that they apparently cannot run a safe airspace.

CO: But we know that already, don't we? I mean, they admitted it, that they accidentally shot down a passenger flight with 176 people on board. And yet, flights continue to take off and land with Canadians and everyone else out of Iran. So, where have we seen those consequences for Iran at this point?

RG: So far, the consequences have been very slim, but that is where the international community has to ratchet up the stakes. And these consequences are going to have to be weighed very carefully by the civil aviation community. Do they want to continue to fly their aircraft anywhere near circumstances where somebody could make, even if you accept the details of Iran's explanation so far, where these kinds of mistakes can happen? Or is the issue even more profound than that? We have to pursue this.

CO: You say there's no reason in the world why Iran can't answer Canada's questions, but there obviously are reasons that Iran has. Why do you think, what is it what are the reasons behind Iran being secretive and opaque about what happened to that aircraft?

RG: Well, the consequence of being secretive and opaque, of course, it leads a lot of people to believe there's something more to this story. And a good many of the family members believe that we're not being told the whole truth here. There is something more sinister that has gone on. And Iran surely has a vested interest in maintaining its credibility in the international community. And Canada and the other countries, and like-minded countries that have nothing to do with this particular disaster, need to make common cause in demonstrating to the world we are not going to forget. We are not going to allow the puck to be dragged to the point where everybody gets so tired they just forget about it. This has to be kept a live issue in the international arena until the rules begin to change in a favourable way. And countries that have heretofore simply ignored the rules start to adopt better behaviour. The international community can change this if they want to. And Canada's obligation is to make sure that we continue to stoke the desire to get the changes that are necessary to satisfy the families and keep civil aviation safe.

CO: Mr. Goodale, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

RG: Thank you very much, Carol.

CH: Ralph Goodale is the Prime Minister's Special Advisor on Ukrainian Airlines Flight PS 752. We reached him in Regina.

Stranded Australians

Guests: Kate Jeffries, David Jeffries

CH: David and Kate Jeffries just want to get home. In February, the couple and their infant son travelled from their home in Australia to Portage La Prairie in Manitoba. Mr. Jeffries' mother had been diagnosed with cancer, and the young family planned to stay for a few weeks to help care for her. What they didn't plan on was still being in Portage La Prairie in December. But because of Australia's strict entry restrictions during the pandemic, that is where they remain. We reached Kate and David Jeffries in Portage La Prairie.

CO: Kate, I'll start with you. How many times have you tried to get back home over these past nine months?

KATE JEFFRIES: We had our initial fights for March 29 cancelled on March 20th, and we've had four flights since then cancelled. So, five in total. And we're hoping to get on a plane on December 18 to make it sixth time lucky. I think we initially understood why the government shut down the borders because there were so many unknowns with the virus, and we thought that was sensible. But yeah, we're still here nine months later, and it doesn't seem like any learnings have been applied or anything to come up with a plan to get us home.

CO: David, if anyone had told you back in March that you would still be in Portage La Prairie at Christmas, would you have believed them?

DAVID JEFFRIES: We would not have believed them. And we certainly wouldn't have thought the Australian government would leave ourselves and 40-thousand other Australians unable to return home. As Kate said, we initially thought that we had some faith in the government. We thought, you know, they’ve been on top of this. We'll learn about the virus. We will, you know, we'll put some good measures in place. We’ll apply science and probability and some work to get us home. And, no, absolutely not. We've really been quite shocked by the lack of action on behalf of the federal government of Australia.

CO: What is Australia not doing that you believe they should be doing?

DF: Well, it all comes down to, you know, the responsibility and where it's being placed. In the days following the announcement of the pandemic, our prime minister, Scott Morrison, basically abdicated all responsibility for border security and quarantine. He instead passed all of that responsibility down to each individual state. So that’s as if Justin Trudeau had said to each individual province in Canada, you are responsible for getting 62-and-a-half-thousand Canadians home in the next three months. And we all know that didn't happen. We all know that the Canadian government did step up. Our federal government, Scott Morrison, did not do that. He pointed at the states and said, it's all your fault.

CO: What's it been like for you? How what effect has had being this past nine months stranded, I guess, in Portage La Prairie and not wanting to get home to Australia?

KF: It's very frustrating to say that Australia is they seem to be the only country that is unwilling and unable to repatriate their citizens. I would like to get myself and my husband and my son back to my country, where I have my home and my job and my life and my friends and my family. And it's just very disappointing that our government has treated us this way, especially considering that they found the political will and the ability to allow international students and the Australian Open tennis players, the entire Indian cricket team and their families, they’ve all found a will and a way to get them into Australia, but they seem to be barring Australian citizens from returning. It's very disappointing.

CO: I know you're there because David's mother was... you went to be with her while she was going through procedures for cancer. And so you're with her. How has that been, David? Is she OK, first of all? And what's the situation?

DF: She got through nine rounds of chemo. She's got a fighter. And the chemo has had a positive effect. If there's one silver lining in all of this, it is that Mitchell has had an opportunity to spend more time with his grandparents, and vice versa. If we had planned to come out for a year, we could have settled in and really enjoyed it. But the uncertainty surrounding thinking we were always going to be leaving the next month, or the next month, or the next month, or it's only going to be two more months, or you know, we left our house in Perth expecting that we were going to be walking back through that door on April 1st. You know, if you could imagine, you know, going home to your pantry or your fridge or your house after you've lost it for almost nine, ten months. Can you sort of imagine some of that anxiety that we might be feeling about the way we left things?

CO: So the appeal that I'm hearing from both of you and the points you're making very valid. So how is your government responding? What responses have you had from your own counsel in Canada, from the government itself?

DF: This is really the appalling bit. Our prime minister is getting up... once again, our prime minister, who's had nothing to do with solutions, or putting in place plans or solutions for bringing stranded Australians home. He's getting up regularly in front of the cameras, saying Australians are at the front of the queue. Australians are going to be the first ones through. That is absolutely false. Firstly, there is no queue. Secondly, as Kate was saying, entire cricket teams, Australian Open tennis players and most other labourers are being welcomed in ahead. So there is no plan. He is also getting up in front of cameras. He, along with several of these state premiers, both in Western Australia and New South Wales, as well as the prime minister himself, is saying that Australians should have returned by now. If you haven't returned by now, then you've obviously delayed this, and it’s your fault. So what we've actually seen is a narrative that is being driven by our governments, that it is our fault that we are stranded in overseas countries. And that is absolutely despicable, in my books.

CO: You have packed your bags so many times by now, and you're going to be doing it again soon. What is the next possible date that you might be leaving?

KF: We’re actually booked to fly on December 18, so we're very much hoping that goes ahead for the sixth time lucky.

CO: What's the weather like in Perth right now, Kate?

KF: I haven't checked lately [laughing] because I look out the window here and see that it's snowing, and it's just pretty depressing. [CO and KF chuckle] I think it's around mid-30s at the moment. So it's going to be about a 50-degree turnaround for us when we land, which will be interesting.

CO: Have you ever had a winter at Portage La Prairie before?

KF: I have not. And I've been told the weather has been very favourable, [KF and CO chuckle] and that it's about to get a whole lot worse, which is another reason I'm hoping to get on that plane in December.

CO: Kate and David, I wish you safe passage home very soon. And I appreciate speaking with both of you. Thank you.

KF: Thank you.

DF: Thank you so much for taking the time.

CH: Kate and David Jeffries have been trying to get back to their home in Perth, Australia, since March. They are still in Portage La Prairie, Manitoba.

SOD: Loud French frog pond

CH: The French names for frogs just sound so much gentler. For starters, "grenouille" is a nice, mellifluous word — so much more elegant than the blunt English word "frog". And the names for various species of frog also sound nicer in French: "grenouille rieuse" for "marsh frog". "Pelodyte ponctué" for "common parsley frog". Even the — can we just... can we bring the frogs down a little bit?

[Sound: Frogs and pond sounds are turned down]

CH: Thank you. Sorry. Now, as I was trying to say: the names of frogs sound better in France. But frogs themselves sound pretty much the same. And, en masse — as they say in France they can sound deafeningly loud. This is the problem with les grenouilles de Grignols — that is, the frogs of the French village of Grignols. For nine years, a couple there has fought to keep their pond full of frogs. Some of which, conservationists say, are protected species and must be allowed to stay. But the couple's neighbours say the frogs are too loud to stay. Especially during their mating season, when their calls reach 63 decibels — as loud as a vacuum cleaner, or as someone playing Boyz II Men's "I'll Make Love To You" non-stop, at a sexy volume. Well, now, that couple has lost its battle. They've been forced to start draining their pond. But an environmental group is still appealing, to save those protected grenouilles. Because those harried neighbours and the frog-protectors agree on one thing: nobody wants them to croak.

Part two: Peter Nygard arrested, Hungary family definition

Peter Nygard arrested

Guest: Bob McKeown

CH: Peter Nygard is behind bars. The Canadian fashion mogul was arrested last night in Manitoba on an extradition request from the United States. He has been under investigation for sexual assault in the U.S., Canada. and the Bahamas. The arrest comes months after a class-action lawsuit was filed against Mr. Nygard. Dozens of women accuse him of rape and sexual assault. Mr. Nygard denies all the allegations, which date back decades, and involve girls as young as 14. After the suit was launched, April Telek told her story to CBC's investigative program "The Fifth Estate". The Canadian actor said that in 1993 Peter Nygard held her against her will in his Winnipeg apartment and raped her.

APRIL TELEK: When I found out that there was this case against him now, and I heard that the victims were as young as they were, and I read the details of the things that he had done to other women, [beginning to cry] I felt an immense amount of guilt over the fact that I had not charged him at the time. And felt like I could have perhaps prevented some of that from happening to other women and girls, children. But I have a 13-year-old daughter. I don't want her to ever be any confusion. I do not feel shame about [sniffle] what happened to me. And that is something that women of sexual assault deal with all the time. They feel shame, and they feel, we feel that we don't have power, that we don't have voices. And I wanted to give weight to these other people's stories.

CH: That was April Telek speaking to "The Fifth Estate" in June. Bob McKeown led that CBC investigation. He's a host of the show, and we reached him in Toronto.

CO: Bob, listening to April Telek, what do you think this arrest of Peter Nygard means to those women who have come forward with their stories?

BOB MCKEOWN: Well, I think April is a perfect example of it. She did not tell her story from 1993, when she was 20, until earlier this year when we contacted her and gave her the opportunity. And it seemed to me that she was just waiting for it. But a lot of time had gone by, you know? And perhaps most importantly, it was the #MeToo time. And I think she had been waiting for that. So I've got to believe from those who we have spoken [chuckle] and those we haven't, that what she just expressed is a common emotion amongst a lot of them today.

CO: The women who you interviewed for “The Fifth Estate”, many of them, perhaps all of them, have now joined the class-action lawsuit in the United States that now involves 57 women accusing Peter Nygard of sexual assault and rape dating back to 1977. What charges is he facing from the United States now?

BM: Well, basically, Carol, it is the criminal version of that class-action lawsuit that was filed back in February of 2012. What happened here is the FBI came in a couple of weeks after that lawsuit was filed in the Southern District of New York. The FBI came in and asked the court to suspend and stay that civil action. Which only means one thing, that they intend to go forward with a criminal action. And staying the civil lawsuit means there aren’t going to be complications that'll get in the way. And the charges are essentially the same. They’re, in the Southern District of New York and NYPD vernacular, its sex trafficking and racketeering. But let me just I'll quote to you from the indictment. You’ll get the sense of it. They're saying the co-conspirators are Nygard, his company, and many of his colleagues and employees. It says over the 25 year period, Nygard used his company's influence, as well as its employees, funds and other resources to recruit and maintain adult and minor female victims for Nygard’s sexual gratification. He and his co-conspirators used force, fraud and coercion to cause women and minors to have sex with Nygard and others.

CO: OK, and so these are obviously allegations. Nothing's been proven in court at this point. So what was his appearance today in Winnipeg? What was that about?

BM: It was his first appearance. He's being held under the Extradition Act. He was arrested last night. Clearly, the FBI was the driving force here because the Mounties and the Winnipeg police have had a chance to do this for years. They helped out. The arrest was actually done by the Manitoba members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, assisted by the Winnipeg police force. It was 8:00 o'clock last night, and he was brought into the remand centre and in Winnipeg, where he spent the night. And today was a first appearance of the extradition process. He's being held under the Extradition Act. And clearly, the Southern District of New York, the people at the FBI are looking to get him back there so they can try him there, which is bad news for Peter Nygard.

CO: But the FBI makes it clear that the Canadian cases that were brought forward, and many of them were ones that “The Fifth Estate” presented, the case is much stronger because of that. So why didn't the Canadian authorities why has he not being charged and prosecuted in Canada?

BM: That's a very good question. And in Winnipeg, the history has been that Peter Nygard has always been a very important person. His company was a multi, multi-hundred-million-dollar company. Many people worked at the Nygard headquarters there. He was a man of influence. He made... there was a certain cachet that he brought to Winnipeg. And that's the impact Nygard’s really had, the chilling effect Nygard’s had until very recently. It's changed a bit in the past year, but it remains to be seen how much.

CO: On the subject of chilling effect, you have been, and “The Fifth Estate” has been investigating, Peter Nygard. Well, your first documentary was ten years ago. What kind of pushback did you get from the Nygard legal team as you pursued that story?

BM: [chuckling] Well, what we got when we were researching the story was a lot of chills of the spine because things were happening that don't usually happen when we go to a place like Winnipeg to ask questions. We were convinced that we were being followed. Our producers who lived there had people outside their houses day and night sitting in a car. There were reasons to believe that our phones were tapped, that our emails were being hacked. And the most difficult of the things he's done is he had us charged, the producers and myself, under Section 300 of the criminal code. And that's the criminal liable provision, where if you are found guilty, you don't pay money, you go to jail. And Peter Nygard, [laughing] from everything I could tell, sitting in that courtroom, wanted to send us to jail for a maximum of five years.

CO: And it's not... the criminal libel provision is rarely used. So where is that now? Are you still facing possible jail time for having done the story on Peter Nygard?

BM: Just the week before last, Carol, the charges were stayed. In other words, the procedure was discontinued.

CO: So that criminal libel charge has now been stayed. So you're not facing that. But what's Mr. Nygard facing now?

BM: Well, extradition to the U.S. right away. And he may be awaiting extradition for years. So he faces a long road. Will he get bail, given his recent history, the fact that he's got a 737 at Winnipeg Airport gassed and ready to go? And if he does get sent to the U.S. to face trial, if convicted, and again, you pointed out none of this has been tested in court, he's facing literally decades behind bars.

CO: Bob, we will leave it there. Thank you.

BM: Thanks, Carol.

CH: Bob McKeown is a host of CBC's "The Fifth Estate". He was in Toronto.

Rescue awards

GORD PORTMAN: I noticed an abnormal amount of smoke coming from a chimney, and smoke coming from the side of the house. And I jumped into action. And I met up with this guy, Rob Madden, at the door, and we bang on the door. And he dialed 9-1-1, and I banged on the door. And I could hear screaming inside, so I got on my hands and knees, and I crawled around. And, you know, I was hit by a thick cloud of smoke. So I started crawling around on my hands and knees, and I yelled for them to get on their hands and knees, and to keep yelling so I could find them. And I ended up finding one of the individuals. And I dragged him the door. And I was forced to leave three times to go get air because of thick smoke. I managed to get the individual to the front door, and I was assisted by the police officer. It took me three to three attempts. I got him to the curb, and I went in for the second body. And I yelled for her to get on her hands and knees. Anyways, the firefighter showed up, and I told them that there was a girl inside within 15 feet of the door. They went in, they found the girl, and brought her out. And they resuscitated her three times. And yeah, it was just chaos. It was unbelievable.

CHRIS WALKER: Wow! Yeah. And so what was it about that experience, well, maybe we should back up? What was, like, what was your life like at that point? Before that happened, just give us a sense of what your life was like.

GP: Yeah, I was an addict. And, yeah, I saw myself in the front page of the paper, and I looked 100 years old. It was just so embarrassing to see that picture of me. And I just knew I needed to get myself clean and sober. And it was the best thing I ever did. Like, I worked on myself really hard there. And I did my three months, and I liked it so much, I went for another three months. Today, I'm doing really good. You know, I'm going to be going back to school here to become a community outreach worker, support worker. And, you know, I’m going to take a couple of courses and stuff, so I can hopefully one day, you know, work with addicts.

CH: Gord Portman helped save three people from a house fire in Penticton, B.C. earlier this year. And then he saved himself. He spoke with the CBC's Chris Walker this morning on "Daybreak South".

[Music: Electronica]

Hungary family definition

Guest: Marton Pal

CH: Over the years, in many places, the definition of a family has evolved. Not everywhere though. In fact, some places are doing everything they can to prevent or reverse that evolution. Today, the Hungarian government amended the definition of a family in its constitution. Now, the parents must be married — and quote, "The mother is a woman, the father a man." Unquote. This means that for same-sex couples, adoption is effectively off the table. Marton Pal and Adam Hanol adopted their son Andris in 2018. But they are still waiting to hear if they will be allowed to bring another child home. We reached Mr. Pal in Budapest.

CO: Marton, what is it like to hear that your government in Hungary basically says that it does not consider your family a family?

MARTON PAL: Yeah, I mean, it was in the news for us today, right? So we were expecting this in the last couple of months. And when you hear the secretary of the families saying that a family is a man and a woman and a kid, then then you are questioning your state or what are you or who are you?

CO: We’ll just make it clear that this is actually now enshrined in your Constitution, that the definition of family is, as you just described it, has to be that there are exceptions, perhaps. But the main rule, according to the justice minister, is that only married couples can adopt a child. That means a man and a woman who are married in. Otherwise, you can't have children.

MP: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

CO: So this is now in your Constitution, right?

MP: Yes. But the Constitution is saying that the marriage can be only between a man and a woman. And there is a Christian culture. And our kids should be raised by this Christian culture and heritage that we have.

CO: You and your partner, Adam, have a boy. Are you adopted a son, Andris, right?

MP: Yes, exactly. Exactly. Two-and-a-half years ago.

CO: Two-and-a-half years ago. And how old is he now?

MP: He's four-and-a-half.

CO: And so you were hoping that he could have a sibling, a brother or a sister, is that right?

MP: Yeah, exactly. Actually, we want to have three kids. [chuckling] So we would like to have a big family. And at the moment, my husband is waiting for the adoption rights, or he's waiting for two years now, more or less.

CO: But now, with this new part of the Constitution, what chances are there that you will be able to have this family?

MP: Look, the new law is at best saying that whoever got the permission before the law was announced as of today, the previous law is valid. So from this perspective, our chance, we still have a chance. But on the other hand, we know that you know, people are working in these adoption offices, and the communication from the government about what the family should look like, and it's clearly stated that gay people shouldn't have kids.

CO: But can you or Adam, can you adopt a child as individuals?

MP: Yeah, that was the Hungarian law at the moment. So I adopted my son, even though we were fully transparent with the adoption agency from the first moment that I stepped in. And I told them that, look, I know the Hungarian law. I know that I can adopt him individually. But I have a husband. We are living in a civil partnership. We want to do this adoption together. And I want him to be part of this whole process. And we want to raise the kid together. But, officially, I'm the only person who is the legal guardian of our son. And even when we get the new birth certificate for him, it's a closed adoption or a secret adoption, so we don't know the birth mother and the birth father. And so we had to state a mother name in the birth certificate. And I had to create a fiction, right? Like a name who will be the mother. Because there cannot be two fathers stated in the birth certificate in Hungary. That's against the law.

CO: Now, Prime Minister Viktor Orban, it's no secret that he is trying to fashion Hungary into a very conservative Christian old European culture. There have been a number of things that are anti-gay, anti-immigrant. And so this is consistent with that. What message do you think that this new part of the Constitution, what message does it send to two young LGBTQ Hungarians?

MP: Um, yeah, it's [clears throat] I'm sorry, this is a little bit hard to talk about. So imagine what kind of message it’s sending to young people, right? So I'm 37. I have a husband, I have a kid. I have a family. But imagine if there's someone who is, I don't know, 16, 18 years old, starting his life. And what they can expect, how they can have a family, right? [sniffle] How they can live a full life? And if the Constitution is stating that they are not equal and they are not normal, this is not right. This is pure discrimination. And these kids, they need hope, they need a sign. I'm sorry.

CO: Don't apologize.

MP: I'm sorry. [sniffles] So it's not fair. I'm sorry. [beginning to cry] That was a hard day. OK, I pulled myself together, sorry.

CO: Marton, I'm so sorry.

MP: I’m sorry.

CO: But it must be some consolation to you to know that you and Adam and Andris are a model family, that that message must go out to Hungarians, that you are good parents. Do you take some comfort in knowing that you are a model family?

MP: Yeah. And we are showing this. And we we do have some social media accounts like Instagram, for example, that we would like to show to the Hungarians that we are as normal as everybody else. We are super boring family [CO cuckles brightly] with the same struggles that everybody else, right? We just want to be enough good. We don't want to be the best. We want to be average. And, you know, I mean, it's so sad that I have to talk to you, right? And I have to talk about my family. I shouldn't happen. It shouldn't be a news. I'm boring [laughing]. And this is what we would like to achieve with this, to show to the people in this country that we exist and we are the same, and they don't have to afraid from us. And with this, hopefully, at least we can change some minds and their thinking, and they will not listen to the government discrimination.

CO: What chances are there that you'll be able to have that family that you and Adam think about?

MP: We’re probably never going to give up. Obviously, one miracle happened with our son, and why another miracle couldn’t happen? So obviously our chances are lower, but we would like to stay in this country.

CO: [takes a deep breath] Marton, I wish you and Adam successful life, and a big family, [laughing] and I hope it all works out for you, [MP laughs brightly] and it's really good to talk to you.

MP: Thank you very much for the opportunity, and all the best for you, too.

CO: Thank you. Bye.

MP: Thank you. Bye-bye. Bye.

CH: Marton Pal and his partner Adam Hanol are hoping to adopt another child — but that's become more difficult after Hungary changed its definition of family. We reached Mr. Pal in Budapest. And we have more on their story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Uke!]

Thunder Bay Syrian restaurant cookie

CH: It's a taste of Aleppo by way of Thunder Bay, Ontario. Aya Wadi and her family fled Syria for Canada in 2017. In the midst of the pandemic, they launched the new restaurant, Royal Aleppo Food. And now, three of her family's recipes have been featured in a new cookbook from the UN Refugee Agency — including, just in time to add to your holiday baking regimen, the ma'amoul cookie.

AYA WADI: The recipes that we shared were so special for us as a family. I can't find the right words to describe our feeling. We're so happy. We are glad, happy that we shared finally our own recipe with the people. And now they can try our recipe out, especially that the holiday and the Christmastime is almost here. We shared three recipes like a main dish and dessert, the main dish, like, a dish called ouzi, which has made of rolls with rice, beans and nuts. And the other one is that like a red pepper basted with molasses. And the last one, which is very special for us, it's ma’amoul recipe, and it’s dessert. I used to make it with my grandma and my mom, especially I still remember that warm days were when we were celebrating the last day of Ramadan after we had like a long day of fasting. We were just sat down at the table and used that wooden mold to make ma’amoul.

CH: That's Aya Wadi of Royal Aleppo Foods speaking with CBC Thunder Bay's Cathy Alex.

Part three: Highgate Cemetery redesign, Encore: Swuggling, Blue Jean Mile and Boston Strog

Highgate Cemetery redesign

Guest: Ian Dungavell

CH: Highgate Cemetery is historically significant, to be sure. Home to the remains of famed writers like Douglas Adams and George Eliot. As well as other significant figures like Karl Marx, Aleksander Litvinenko, and George Michael. And for a cemetery, it's an enchanting place: mossy and mysterious and overgrown in a decidedly romantic, English way. Unfortunately, its keepers now say some of the plant life that gives the cemetery its characteristic charm is endangering its very existence. And climate change is making things worse. So they're now embarking on an ambitious, 25-year redesign, to help lay fears of weather-induced ruin to rest. Ian Dungavell runs the charity that runs the cemetery. We reached him in London.

CO: Ian, what makes the Highgate Cemetery such a special place, in your view?

IAN DUNGAVELL: I think it’s so difficult to put your fingers on. It's got this amazing atmosphere as you walk around those curving paths winding up the hill, then you see the trees and the ivy and all those monuments from the 19th century with that rich layer of history. All coming together to create a really special sense of place. It's got its own aesthetic attraction where you have these monuments that were put up by people expecting them to last for generations. And then nature is reclaiming them. And it shows that, you know, it's going to win in the end. And we're here for a short period of time. And there’s something, I guess, humbling to know that our time on Earth is so short and so impermanent.

CO: Can you just describe that? Sort of the combination of these stones that are installed to commemorate all kinds of people, including very famous ones, and all of these trees ad these vines that twist around them?

ID: Yeah. So what's happened is in the 19th century, when the cemetery was built, it was much more ordered and looked after. And then the 20th century, the cemetery became unprofitable to run. And so people neglected it. And we've got lots of trees that have grown up wherever they can between the gravestones. And their roots are pushing those stones over. We've got ivy which is clambering up those monuments, and it's getting its little roots in between the joints, and it's forcing those monuments to pieces. So there’s this real tension between what was ordered and constructed and then that invasive decay of nature.

CO: When did the decay actually cross over and become a problem?

ID: Well, it's become a problem with our maturing trees. When it first started off, it was really most attractive because the younger trees created screens. You wandered through the cemetery. You could see bits. Your view was blocked. And then, as the trees got taller, that understory was removed. So you've got a forest of tree trunks. And you didn’t have that same romantic appeal of your views being disrupted. But then what also happened is the trees got bigger. They got more of a problem when we had strong winds or when we have heat stresses, which make them do things like drop their branches. And that's exacerbated by climate change.

CO: Tell us a bit more about what climate change has done, what effect it had on the vegetation in Highgate Cemetery?

ID: Well, the vegetation evolved in a relatively stable and predictable climate. So you knew the range of temperatures that you were having. What's happened now is that our winters are becoming wetter, and our summers are becoming drier. And we're having more frequent and more severe periods of droughts and more severe periods of intense rainfall. And also stronger winds. So the trees didn't evolve to cope with that sort of changeable weather. And our trees in particular, because it's not like a healthy sort of woodland. Those additional stresses are making them very vulnerable to pests and diseases as well. So, you know, you name a tree in the cemetery, and we've got a fungus or an insect or something which is trying to attack it at the moment. And the sort of environment that our trees are used to it makes that really difficult for them to fight these off. So, for example, in the summer just gone, we had a week of 36 degrees Celsius, which is, you know, pretty much unprecedented. And we've had very, very wet and sodden winters, where the trees can become waterlogged. So these are all things they're not used to dealing with.

CO: What's the plan then? You and others have figured out that you need to, I guess, redesign. You need to have a kind of rethink of Highgate Cemetery. What are you considering?

ID: Well, we're already facing these impacts of climate change on the cemetery. So one of our dominant species is ash. And we have got a fungal attack called ash dieback, which is threatening. And we've got it already, and it's likely to spread. And so one of the questions for us, when we have these tall trees, which creates such an atmosphere, they give scale almost like a cathedral to the cemetery. We've got to work out how to deal with those as we need to remove them. What species are we going to plant to replace them? Not just now, but we're looking at further projections for global warming throughout the century. It looks as though that the temperatures are going to rise by up to four degrees by the end of the century, which means that the sorts of temperatures we're getting in the southeast of England would be more like the Loire Valley in France. So what people have often done is say that you should plant native species because they're the most suited to the climates of the location. But, in fact, when the climate is changing, that may no longer be the case. Also, naturalized species will be possibly introduced. The other thing is that some of the really interesting aesthetic landscape experiences that the Victorian garden designers wanted us to appreciate have been lost. So Highgate Cemetery was originally laid out as a romantic regency or early 19th-century garden, where, as you would walk along, your view would be blocked perhaps by some shrubs, and then you would turn a corner, and you would see a new vista open up in front of you. So there was a theatricality and surprise to the landscape, which has been lost now that it's dominated by tall, spindly ash trees, which are mainly of a single generation.

CO: Do you think that this is going to... what you need to do with Highgate Cemetery, will be played out across England, similar sites that have been affected by that extreme weather you were describing?

ID: I think absolutely there's a real need to plan for climate change when people are looking at managing woodland. But we have a much more difficult problem than most in that because our surface is covered with graves and memorials, you can't just fill a tree. We have to cut them in pieces and lower the sections down on a rope to the ground so that nothing is as damaged, and it's all done very respectfully. So it's going to be incredibly expensive for us to deal with the problem that otherwise would be more affordable to deal with. So that's really the challenge for us, let alone that problem of recreating a designed landscape.

CO: Well, I wish you success with this project, Ian. And thank you for speaking with us.

ID: Thank you very much. It's a pleasure.

CH: Ian Dungavell is the Chief Executive at Friends of Highgate Cemetery, the charity that runs the beloved British graveyard. We reached him in London.

[Music: Ambient]

Encore: Swuggling, Blue Jean Mile and Boston Strog

CH: It has been easy to feel...unmotivated this year. Confined to quarters, many of us have excelled primarily at binge-watching television. With occasional Herculean feats of ordering pizza. Then there are those for whom the pandemic has been inexplicably inspiring. Their achievements have been our welcome distractions. And as it happens, they've made for some bright spots here on "As It Happens". Over the next few wintery weeks, we'll be sharing some standout interviews from throughout the past year — starting tonight with a batch of folks for whom your standard at-home workout routine just wouldn't cut it. Nay. These 2020 guests had to add swimming to their juggling. Denim to their running. And spelling tests to their tests of stamina. Take Bob Evans, who taught Carol a thing or two about "swuggling" — after breaking a world record in September.

BE: The previous record was 25 catches.

CO: Wow. So you could have just done 26 and called it a day?

BE: 26 would have done it. But I want to make it harder for the next guy if there is one or girl.

CO: [Laughs] Yes. And that may not happen. So why did you want to be able to break the world record for swuggling?

BE: I love to train. I love to learn. I've always been an athlete. I studied psychology in university. So I'm interested in how people learn. And I love physical challenges. So even if this weren't a record, I would still be doing something to learn something athletic. My job as an elementary PE teacher, the Guinness Book of Records, is a huge deal when you're working with five, six, seven, eight year olds. And so what I always try to do is model healthy living for my students. So every year for the past few years now, I always want to be striving for something.

CO: This is not the only record you have broken. This is a Guinness record you wanted to break. But what are the other things you have done that no one else has?

BE: This is my third official record. Now, the first one that I did was running a mile backwards while juggling three balls. And the second one I did was running a mile forwards but bounce juggling three basketballs.

CO: Wow. And you've also had some other juggling records that are not Guinness World Records, right?

BE: Right. I've unofficially broken the fastest five kilometres running forwards while juggling three balls. And also the fastest 10 kilometres. And my wife, Tricia and I are two of the only three people I believe in the world, maybe four, who have juggled through an entire triathlon -- so it's swimming, biking or uni-cycling and then running. We did three balls for an entire triathlon.

CO: Good. So your wife is a juggler as well?

BE: She is. She's also jugular and a schoolteacher.

CO: What do your kids -- what do your students think of this?

BE: It's amazing how normalized you become to it. Maybe it's for the first few weeks they're impressed when they see their gym teacher lying on the gym floor and juggling five balls over his face and practicing his flutter kicks. But after a while, they do become normalized to it. But I do think it's powerful for them to see their teacher practising and challenging himself and setting a goal and working towards it. At least that's my hope.

CO: Well, I mean, it's really quite something if they think that this is meh -- I want to see you do something more difficult than this. But have any of them tried to juggle and swim at the same time?

BE: I haven't had any swuggling students yet. I've had plenty of students, probably hundreds, if not thousands, that have learned to juggle. For me, some students are now better jugglers than I am, which is awesome. But I don't think anyone has done it in the pool yet.

CO: Have you got an idea, have you got your eye on a record you want to break after this?

BE: It's a little dependent on -- I have two kids at home, I have a two year old and a 10 month old, but my two year old just learned how to ride a two wheel bike. And I'm hoping to go for the longest distance on a unicycle while juggling three objects. I think the current record is 20 kilometres. And I think I can expand that one by quite a bit.

CO: Sounds like you're juggling a lot.

BE: [Chuckles] Juggling a lot, both literally and metaphorically.

CH: Bob Evans is an Oregon school teacher who set a new, now-certified Guinness World Record for "swuggling" this past September. He's far from the only record-breaker we've had on our show this year. And as uncomfortable as swimming while juggling may sound, it somehow doesn't inspire quite the same sinking feeling as the prospect of running a record-breaking mile in the confines of denim pants. But that's just what pro runner Johnny Gregorek set out to do back in May. And as he told Carol at the time, it was all for a good cause.

CO: Spoken like a true pro. What about rolling up your cuffs? Is that a possibility?

JG: Yeah, yeah, I get to roll up the cuffs I think an inch above my ankle. So that's also a nice benefit to not get too much scraping up with my ankles.

CO: And what about wearing a belt?

JG: Yeah. I'll wear a belt as well. Nothing too heavy.

CO: Okay, for style, I would think you should do that.

JG: Yeah, that too.

CO: Just the look. Now —

JG: And so my pants don’t fall down.

CO: [laughing] How did this Blue Jeans Mile tradition get started?

JG: You know, a friend of mine in the professional learning community had created the event a few years ago, just as a gag, just to sort of spice things up and just for something to do. And. And I think that running always has had this sort of, you know, light-hearted nature within the community, at least. And it just kind of gained a little bit of traction from pro runners with people trying it out. And eventually, the current world record was run a couple of years ago, and it's 4:11. So I figured the race really didn't have any you know, it had kind of grown to a point where there was no awareness cause attached to it or anything like that. And I figured I could, you know, raise some awareness and have some fun with it and make it my own.

CO: In what way? What are you going to raise awareness for?

JG: Yeah. So May is Mental Health Awareness Month. So I guess we're kind of drawing it to an end here, and hopefully, finishing it off with a bang. But I've been raising funds for the National Alliance on Mental Illness, which is an organization that provides resources for those suffering from mental illnesses and their families and caretakers in the community at large. And so I think it's just important, you know, right now with this with all the isolation of the staying at home that's happening, people have a lot harder time getting those resources, and just a lot more strain on, you know, ailments they might be suffering from. So I just thought that this would be a great way to raise an awareness for that. And I think it has.

CO: And so you are going to attempt to break the record?

JG: I am. Yes, I'm going to attempt to run an all-out one-mile. Current record is 4:11. So I'm hoping to run a little bit faster than that. [laughing]

CO: Because the four-minute mile, I mean, that's the kind of legendary benchmark.

JG: Yeah.

CO: That was broken a long time ago. But now you're going to break the four-minute mile in bluejeans.

JG: Yeah. Yeah. I’ll definitely, you know, that's the primary goal is just to get the record. But I'll be running as fast as I can, and without the blues jeans on, I've broken four many times. So if all goes well, and you know, it doesn't impede me too much, then I don't see why it should stop me this time.

CO: Huh. And, of course, what you were hoping to be doing this summer was, well, working at the Olympics, right? So how strange does it feel to be doing this instead?

JG: It's definitely a tone shift from, you know, a month from now, we're going to the Olympic trials. And now we're waiting for 2021. And, you know, I had to reassess and set some new goals. But this has been a great way to stay in shape. And then, you know, also make some meaning with this free time that I've had and get something out of it. And you’re still getting that same feeling of a competition, of a race, of getting the best out of yourself. So I'm really grateful that I was able to have that.

CH: Johnny Gregorek is one of America's best middle-distance runners. But when it comes to racing in blue jeans, he's officially the world's fastest. Mr. Gregorek spoke with Carol in May — right before taking a run at the record. And while he didn't quite manage a four-minute mile, he still tore up the track. I guess...it's just in his jeans. Lindsay Devers also had a good run this year. She's a nurse anesthetist at Massachusetts General Hospital and a competitive marathoner. This year, she completed the Boston Marathon — despite the official race being called off due to COVID-19. It's massively impressive. Just don't ask her to spell anesthetist. Or Massachusetts. Or pretty much anything. Here's part of Lindsay Devers' April conversation with Carol.

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December 15, 2020 Episode Transcript

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