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The AIH Transcript for December 07, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is “As It Happens”.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Sowing dissent. As farmers across India rise up against the country's new agriculture laws, an Indian politician says he's moved to see Canadians step up to support the cause.

CH: Sound bites. A report out of the U.S. presents a new theory about what caused the so-called "Havana Syndrome" suffered by diplomats — and it sounds plausible to us: "radio frequency energy."

CH: As It Happens, the Monday edition. Radio that's guesses it's ending not with a Poäng, but with a whimper.

Part one: India farmers protest, Ontario Greenbelt Council, Breaking 2024 Olympics

India farmers protest

Guest: Parambans Singh Romana

CH: For weeks, farmers in India have raised their voices against the government of Narendra Modi. And now the protest against new agricultural policies has spread around the world. Across Canada on the weekend, rallies were held in support of farmers — from cities as small as Charlottetown, P.E.I, to big urban centres like the Greater Toronto Area. What has farmers in India so upset is a law that would deregulate crop pricing. Farmers fear that the law will allow big corporate interests to bully small-scale farmers. The protests have already caused a major rift in Mr. Modi's governing coalition. One of the Indian Prime Minister's traditional governing allies, the Shiromani Akali Dal party, has split with Mr. Modi and is actively supporting the farmers. Parambans Singh Romana is a spokesperson for the Shiromani Akali Dal party. We reached him in Chandigarh, India.

CO: Mr. Raomana, have you ever seen protests like these in India?

PARAMBANS SINGH ROMANA: Not in my lifetime. Not only in India but nowhere in the world. People from all walks of life, be it farmers, traders, students, singers, writers, everybody have joined in. They are sitting on the roads for the last almost two weeks, sleeping out in the open in the coldest winter that we are having.

CO: I want to understand a bit more about what it is they're protesting against? Because we know that India's farmers subsist on incomes of a few hundred dollars a year. They have small farms. They're very poor. What is it about this new law? What is the government proposing that has turned all of them out to the streets in this way?

PSR: What the government is proposing, they brought in a new set of farm laws where they are allowing private players to enter into the procurement process, which is largely controlled or which was largely controlled ‘till now by the government. These are heavily tilted in favour of corporates — agriculture is being corporatized. And the farmer is going to be left at the mercy of private buyers, private traders who are going to fix their own prices and deprive the farmer of a fair deal.

CO: Your prime minister, Narendra Modi, is saying that this deregulation would, in fact, help farmers by letting them market their own produce. And allow more private investment, which you desperately need. Isn't there a need for modernization in Indian farming?

PSR: If these laws are benefiting us as farmers, why do you think in this cold winter, when COVID is at its peak, people are risking their lives in the cold and this pandemic sitting on the roads protesting against these laws? If they are benefiting us, would you think anybody would be there? Don't we know what benefits us? How can you tell us that this is benefitting you? We do know best what benefits us.

CO: One of the main issues we've heard is that the Indian farmers are very upset that they were not consulted with these laws. Do you think that had the prime minister given the farmers access to consult them, that you would have had different kinds of laws?

PSR: The only thing we were saying is that at least the stakeholders on board. You are bringing a law that is going to affect the livelihood and the coming generations of 70 per cent of your population. And you are not willing to listen to them?

CO: Do you think that there is room, there is a place for reform within India's farming?

PSR: See, the reform is already happening in the present system. We don't want to be thrown at the mercy of the private players. If the government thinks that reform is essential, why doesn't the government bring in reform? The people of Punjab, the farmers of Punjab, produced foodstuff and turned India from a food-deficit to a food-surplus nation. In the process, we ruined our soil. We ruined our water tables. But we stood with the country when the country needed us. We provided food for the country. Today, when we need the country, the country is abandoning us. They are refusing to hold our hands. Do you think this is what governments are for?

CO: Over the weekend, there were protests around the world, including in Canada, people supporting what is happening with the protests in India. What do you make of that?

PSR: We are very grateful to everybody who's supporting us. We are fighting for our livelihood. And as I said, for our coming generations. People will be ruined. Our farmlands will be taken over by corporates. We will be left as labourers on the land that we own. And especially, I would like to say. I would thank the people of Canada, Punjabis and non-Punjabis alike, the government, especially the prime minister of Canada who has spoken for us. You all may be thousands of miles away from us, but the fact that you are with us in this fight for our rights gives us immense strength. I have no words to thank you guys. Your support and commitment to the right of peaceful protests, we thank in the strongest and in the humblest possible way that we can.

CO: When our prime minister, Justin Trudeau, made these remarks, he called the protest clashes concerning. The prime minister of India said that this was unacceptable interference.

PSR: What matters more, that the people are happy or the prime minister of India is happy? The people of Punjab, the people of Haryana or the other states that are protesting, you know, thousands and millions of people have all appreciated the support that we have got from anywhere else in the world. If it is an internal matter or an interference, why didn't they sort it out? That's what I'm saying. The right to peaceful protest is being crushed. You know, we went there as peaceful protesters, barricades were set up. We were water cannoned. We were cane-charged. Pits were dug up so that we don't reach there. Is this the way? It is a fundamental right, you know, given to us in our Constitution that we can protest peacefully. That is being taken away from us. And for standing with us when our peaceful protest right has been taken away, we thank everybody who's done that.

CO: Do you think that these protests will continue, that the march into Delhi and to major cities, do you think that this is going to grow and continue?

PSR: It is growing every day. People in India, people across the world are supporting us. We will not rest. This protest is not going to finish, let anybody not have any doubt in their minds. This protest will finish only when these laws are taken back.

CO: Mr. Romana, I appreciate speaking with you tonight. Thank you.

PSR: Thank you so much. Thank you.

CO: Bye.

PSR: Goodbye.

CH: Parambans Singh Romana is a spokesperson for the Shiromani Akali Dal party. We reached him in Chandigarh, India.

[Music: World music]

Ontario Greenbelt Council

Guest: David Crombie

CH: In Ontario, just outside the hustle and bustle of Toronto and the cities clustered around it, there's a large area of protected land. It's made up of farmland, watersheds, and forests, and it's known as the Greenbelt. David Crombie wants to keep the green in the Greenbelt. And to make that happen, he just quit his job. Over the weekend, the former mayor of Toronto resigned as the chair of Ontario's Greenbelt Council. He was soon followed by six of his colleagues. They're upset over several parts of the province's omnibus COVID-19 recovery bill. Parts they say have little to do with COVID — but could have dire consequences on the environment. We reached David Crombie in Toronto.

CO: Mr. Crombie, why have you resigned?

DAVID CROMBIE: I resigned because the legislation that the government has been proposing, in my judgement, is bad for the environment of Ontario. It grossly affects the ability of conservation authorities to do their job. It cuts a hole in… it cuts the heart out of the ability of watershed planning to be accomplished. And it also has amendments there that begin to stifle public debate and sometimes even shut it off through ministerial administer zoning orders, as they're called.

CO: The Ford government says that this is hogwash, that it’s not going to affect the Greenbelt, that they're, in fact, dedicated to protecting it to and actually expanding the Greenbelt. And that you've you've misunderstood the purpose of what's called Schedule Six. What do you say to that?

DC: Well, everybody that's involved in the planning world disagrees with that. Somehow, the Ford government has in their mind that the Greenbelt is on an ice floe in the Arctic. It's connected to the rest of the province. And watershed planning, in particular, goes by natural boundaries, not political boundaries. And so, consequently, if you do something to a wetland, if you don't deal with the water runoff, if you don't deal with the river valleys, they're all connected to one another. So what you do outside the Greenbelt affects the Greenbelt.

CO: But are there not conservation authorities who would control that and be in charge of that?

DC: No, there are 36 conservation authorities. And all of them are affected by this legislation, all of them. And all of them oppose it.

CO: Well, what happens to those authorities under this law?

DC: Well, they're going to continue on, but they're but their authority, for example, to issue stop-work orders when they see that there's offensive things being done to the environment, that's being clipped. There are so many amendments that people didn't even bother getting a chance to see before they were passed that take away the ability of the conservation authority to actually do its job.

CO: So who will be in charge then? Who is actually going to be able to determine what gets built or what gets developed and in that areas around the Greenbelt?

DC: Well, right right now, through this legislation, I think you're going to find more and more projects coming forward that are the product of the land development industry talking about the province and some local governments, but not talking about environmental considerations.

CO: This area known as the Greenbelt, for people outside of Ontario may not know, this constitutes a great part of what they call the Golden Horseshoe. It's the Niagara Escarpment, the Oak Ridges Moraine. Can you just describe just briefly what it is and why it's so significant?

DC: It's about two-thirds of the population of the province of Ontario. It's about three-quarters of its gross national product. And so that's what you're talking about this area. It is a vast, vast area, but it's also connected to the rest of Ontario. And that's the part that we all thought that everybody understood that. But apparently, not this government.

CO: And that Greenbelt area is contiguous with some of the fastest and largest urban areas and urban sprawl in Canada. So what would be the interests that developers would have to be able to get better access to those areas?

DC: There's lots of land to build. But builders want to build on land that they either owned or control. One example is being used, and it’s a good one, to build a warehouse or on basically on a wetland. Why are they choosing the wetland? Because it's a better financial a profitable deal for land developers.

CO: The government today, though, announced that I guess to send a signal that they do plan to have conservation development, that they are going to expand wetlands, they're putting up 30-million dollars in order to expand and to protect wetlands and those areas. And so does that not send a signal that they do mean to be taking care of the Ontario environment?

DC: It's interesting that came out today when the legislations before the House. And this has been in the works for some time. Everybody is in favour of expanding the Greenbelt. I think what you're going to be finding is that the Greenbelt is going to be expanded by the government, sort of looking at where to swap lands and find ways in which you are going to grow the Greenbelt. But you’re, in a sense, how shall I put this best? The idea is that they're now going to say you can build here if you put in enough money to buy other places with a new wetland. It's like saying the environment is for sale, and there's a kind of you pay-to-pave. And so it's changed the whole notion of how you go about doing environmental planning.

CO: You and the others, because you’re not the only one who has resigned, a number of others on the council have resigned, following in your footsteps. You were all appointed by the Wynne government. Is there a political aspect to this? Could people say, well, you're against the Ford government?

DC: They may say that. I don't know. I don't think that was a factor. Maybe a factor in the Ford government's head, but certainly not in ours.

CO: But do you think also if you stayed, would you be able to fight back? Because we know in the past, Mr. Ford has proposed changes to Greenbelt areas, but then he backs down. Do you think that maybe your authority is needed there, that you should stay on that council in order to have influence?

DC: Well, believe me, Carol, I really thought that through. Because my normal nature would be to stay and struggle from inside. But I've had an opportunity to assess it and see where they’re really heading. And I'm not giving up the fight. I'm just going to change the venue.

CO: Mr. Crombie, we appreciate having you on this venue. Thank you.

DC: You're welcome. Thank you.

CO: Bye.

David Crombie is the former mayor of Toronto. And until his resignation over the weekend, he was the chair of Ontario's Green Belt Council. He was in Toronto.

CH: David Crombie is the former mayor of Toronto — and, until his resignation over the weekend, he was the chair of Ontario's Greenbelt Council. He was in Toronto.

[Music: Indie rock]

Breaking 2024 Olympics

Guest: "Crazy Legs"

CH: Breaking news. That is news about breaking: b-boys and b-girls around the world can now set their sights on Olympic gold. The International Olympic Committee has announced that breakdancing will be an official event in the 2024 Olympic Games in Paris. It will be known by its original name: breaking. The dance style began its life as one of the four pillars of hip-hop culture in New York City in the late 1970s. Richard Colón has been there from the very start — but he's better known as "Crazy Legs". He's the president of the Rock Steady Crew and a pioneer of the art of breaking. We reached him in Los Angeles.

CO: Legs, if someone had told you back in the 1970s, on the streets of the Bronx, that breaking would one day be in the Olympics, what would you have said?

CRAZY LEGS: At that time, breaking wasn't that big. And for me, my thing was actually boxing. My goal was to be in the Junior Olympics, but I was too poor to afford the 14-dollar registration fee. So breaking wasn't really on our radar as something that would go beyond the neighbourhood. So I probably would have just blown it off, like, you know?

CO: Now, we were talking about breaking, but most people will be more familiar with the term breakdancing. But that's not the term that you would use, right?

CL: No, that's not even a term that comes from hip-hop. That was a term that was used by my former manager back in the early ‘80s. And, you know, since we weren’t taking care of our own press releases and she was handling that, that word started to make its way around. And we had no clue that something that was created from within our community was being relabelled and redefined. And so, to me, I actually don't use the word. I don't go around trying to police people. I just share information. But it's more for the sake of empowerment and taking back ownership of something that was created by Black and Brown people.

CO: When people watch breaking, which is just extraordinary, but it's more than just athleticism, isn't it? Can you describe, if you could, what's the soul of breaking? How would you describe that?

CL: Oh, wow! The soul of breaking is the pain that we lived through growing up in the Bronx and the poverty. That soul of all of the funk and soul music created by people like James Brown, Jimmy Castor and even from the Latin soul scene and salsa. That all was kind of like a gumbo of culture in the Bronx. So all those things that make those moves look so good, especially when they weren't yet athletic, was the passion for continuing to move forward and find a way to pass the time. And coming up with something by default that we were all just deeply into as youth.

CO: But then, do you worry that by going into the Olympics with breaking that it might lose that realness, the edginess, it's soul? That when it gets sort of lumped in with, I mean, figure skating, gymnastics, where it's very established, there's rules, there's that way you do things the right way to get points. Do you worry that this is kind of counterculture art form might be damaged by that?

CL: I don't worry, because I'd rather be a problem solver, you know? And have a seat at the table and help guide so that at least when it comes, you know, we have three years to get this right, and that's assuming that they allow me to continue dropping in some words every now and then of advice. So I'm giving them that slack to get it right. And it's better to have a seat at the table and contribute as opposed to sitting on the outside complaining and just raising concerns.

CO: But then how do you think it should be judged? It's not just about the moves from what you're describing.

CL: Exactly!

CO: How do you think, what are the qualities of good braking that should be recognized in any kind of judging?

CL: First of all, you have to have an authentic response to music. You have to have a foundation, including top rock and footwork. You have to know what blow-ups. You have to know what your freezers are. You have to know what your power moves are. And you also then have to know how to do those things fluidly from move-to-move, and not lose the soul of what you do. So it's very important that those things that are kind of like the if I have to explain it to you, you're never going to understand a situation is allowed for us as judges to interpret without having, you know, with sometimes just a look at our face, it’s like, oh, wow, Oh my God! That was so dope. And it's totally based on feeling. And I think you get that from a certain amount of years of knowing how to do the dance, but also being deep-rooted within the culture and the music of the dance. So we are working on judging certification so that those kind of judges, you know, will exist. But it's still the Olympics platform. So we're going to have to allow for a certain amount of compromise. And that compromise will also mean that whatever we're doing as the by the people, for the people kind of events will also remain the most authentic and legitimate. And you have to keep in mind, look, basketball is in the Olympics, but the Olympics will never be the NBA. So the Olympics is never going to be what we do as a community, and that's still what makes it special. And we have to also be careful that when we get to critical of what's happening, you're trampling on the the future of the young people that are going to be part of this. So we have to be very careful with that. And the bigger picture is not even who can win, but what can this do for race relations? What can this do for cultural understanding and appreciation? Those are the bigger picture. Those are the bigger-ticket items that I see.

CO: Right. And you'll be in Paris in 2024 for those games?

CL: I could only hope so.

CO: [chuckling] Just wait. Now, I'm calling you Legs because you told me to call you Legs, right?

CL: Yeah, of course! My mother calls me Legs.

CO: [chuckling] All right. [Legs laughs] Legs, it's good to talk to you. Thanks.

CL: I appreciate the opportunity. Thank you.

CO: Bye.

CL: Bye.

CH: Crazy Legs is the president of the Rock Steady Crew. We reached him in Los Angeles.

[Music: “Take A Chance On Me” by ABBA/Pop]

End of the IKEA catalogue

CH: It's the mid-1970s. The Swedish band ABBA is a major import. And residents of Canada are taking a chance on another Swedish phenomenon: IKEA. A new style of furniture store, which offers you the chance to spend at least four times as long as you'd anticipated assembling an uncomfortable chair.

[“The Winner Takes It All” by ABBA/Pop]

CH: It's the mid-80s, and IKEA has conquered the world. And a huge part of its success is the annual IKEA catalogue. Every year, we await its dreamy photos of rooms filled with Lack tables, Ektorp sofas, and Billy bookcases. Only later, when we've lost our Allan key and are weeping, surrounded by weird screws, will we realize the catalogues tricked us.

[“Thank You For The Music” by ABBA/Pop

CH: It's 2020 — and it's over for the IKEA catalogue. For environmental and economic reasons, that beautiful, misleading catalogue will only be available online. "Turning the page with our beloved catalogue is emotional but rational," says an IKEA exec, which is not fitting at all — since, for most of us, turning pages in that catalogue was entirely emotional, and completely irrational.

Part two: Afghan peace talks update, Australia mango dress

Afghan peace talks update

Guest: Andrew Watkins

CH: When it comes to making peace, even small steps can be difficult. It's been more than two months since the Taliban and the Afghan government sat down to begin peace talks. Only now have they made their first breakthrough. The two sides have agreed on the rules of engagement. When the peace talks opened in September, we heard from one of the few female delegates. Habiba Sarabi spoke with Carol about her hopes for the negotiations.

CH: That was Habiba Sarabi, one of the female delegates at the Afghan peace talks, speaking with Carol in September. Andrew Watkins works for the International Crisis Group think tank. He's the Group's senior analyst for Afghanistan. We reached him today in New York.

CO: Andrew, how much closer are Afghans to that bright future we just heard Habiba Sarabi talking about?

ANDREW WATKINS: As inspiring as that is from one of Afghanistan's representatives at the peace table. Unfortunately, there's still quite a ways away. There has been an important breakthrough, but a breakthrough in one of the earliest stages of what looks to be an incredibly difficult and complex process. The first points of agreement that the two sides have reached were really only to lay down the rules and procedures for how to begin the difficult discussions of this peace process.

CO: Yikes! So basically, what they've agreed to after all of these months is a road map, but nobody's on the road. There's no agenda. There is no... it hasn't moved further. So why is that even significant?

AW: It's significant because, and you're right, they still have yet to even map out which direction the road map is taking them? And even the basic idea of an agenda is yet to be agreed upon. But this is important because after several generations of war and bitter acrimony between the Taliban, their supporters, many others in Afghan society, the Afghan government, in what has become the world's deadliest conflict, for the first time ever, the two sides have agreed to something, speaking to each other directly. And as small of a first step as this is a long process, it is the first time this has ever happened.

CO: I understand one of the main sticking points is that they haven't agreed on what school of Islamic thought would be used for resolving disputes. Why is that important?

AW: It seems as if both sides took this issue because of what it portended for larger questions of Afghanistan's future constitution and government. When the Taliban insisted that any disputes and the talks should be mediated by a particular code within Islamic thought and law, this was their demonstration that the laws that they follow and interpret should be the law of the land for all Afghans. And this raised quite a bit of alarm for Afghan religious minorities, who saw this early disagreement as an attempt by the Taliban to suggest what the future might lay in store for them.

CO: And so doesn't that also for women like Habiba Sarabi, if the codes of even the talks are going to be enshrined in Islamic thought, and that's interpretation of Islam by the Taliban, we know how the Taliban has treated women. How does that bode for her and the other women?

AW: Well, you really have to admire the compromise that both sides reached on this question, which was instead of defining a particular code to acknowledge that both sides, whenever an issue comes up later on in these talks, might hit on a question with theological implications to go back to the source text itself. And that's part of the way that they're able to move forward now.

CO: And now, the Afghan government says its priority, and you can understand why they want a cease-fire. The violence continues. We still have routinely huge attacks with blasts and mortar fire and the killing of so many civilians, even in Kabul. So how close are they to actually getting the very basics, which is to have a cease-fire so they can proceed?

AW: This is perhaps the biggest challenge that looms up ahead, and it's going to come up soon. As these two sides try and agree on an agenda, the Afghan government and, of course, many Afghans suffering from violence would like to see a cease-fire discussed right away as soon as possible. Unfortunately, the Taliban has a great deal of suspicion and mistrust of the Afghan government and of its international supporters. The Taliban believes that discussion of a cease-fire is part of a ploy to weaken them and to hold them back. And it feels as if holding on to violence, even if ordinary Afghans are suffering, is the only way that it can hold the other side accountable until it gets some guarantees that this peace process might lead to things that they want.

CO: The United States is driving this, and has been. And that's the Trump administration's appointee, Zalmay Khalilzad. But they've already announced that Donald Trump is already withdrawing the troops. So does the United States have leverage? I mean, what are they negotiating with when one of the key demands of the Taliban is going to happen without even getting anything for it, which is the removal of U.S. troops?

AW: It's a difficult position. We've seen Khalilzad try to adapt to the Trump administration's withdrawals of troops, partial withdrawals, by instead emphasizing the potential incentives, the benefits and payoffs that might reward the Taliban as well as, hopefully, most Afghans if a peace settlement is reached. We've heard from members of the Taliban themselves, as well as many others. They remember what it was like to rule Afghanistan, but as a pariah state, unrecognized by most of the world, and with the country deeply impoverished. And what the U.S. is currently hoping is that the Taliban can be convinced that continuing to negotiate is in their interest as it will shape the kind of future Afghanistan has.

CO: Just finally, do you think that the Biden administration is going to inherit a peace process which is advanced and actually going to be successful?

AW: The prospects for success for this peace process were always slim. The number of and the depth of challenges are really steep. But the process, especially with this early initial breakthrough, has been kept on life support. The alternatives to continue to try to make use of this opportunity are frankly pretty terrible to consider.

CO: Andrew, we're going to leave it there, but we will be following this story. And I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

AW: Thank you very much.

CH: Andrew Watkins works for the International Crisis Group think tank. He was in New York.

SHAWN MARSHALL: They're experiencing symptoms very reminiscent of patients who've had a concussion, headache, problems with light sensitivity, noise sensitivity and balance problems. They also have difficulties with thinking abilities. So they note they're slower in their thinking. They have difficulties with concentration. And they have difficulties with dividing their attention. So, for instance, they're easily distracted by, you know, say, multiple conversations going on at once. Fatigue is a very striking symptom, irritability and kind of emotional dyscontrol. Like their mood is up and down.

CO: The Canadian government is not saying anything about this. They're being rather hush-hush. We do know, though, that U.S. diplomats and their families who are in Havana at the U.S. embassy, they began having these similar symptoms. Have you been able to learn anything from the doctors who are looking at the U.S. diplomats who are suffering the same symptoms?

SM: I've been lucky enough to have facilitated, you know, through the Canadian government to be able to liaise with the physicians in the United States treating patients with a similar profile. Again, I don't know details of their patients due to confidentiality and that sort of thing. But it certainly seems to be a similar pattern of what the American experience has been to the Canadian experience.

CO: So in Washington, though, they're speculating that the brain injuries were caused by a mysterious energy weapon attack by some foreign power. Does that seem plausible?

SM: It does seem possible in that we know that trauma to the brain and injury to the brain, can be caused by, for instance, radiation. We know that it can be caused by blast waves from bombs. Like, there's different ways the brain can have trauma or injury. So that would not necessarily be an unreasonable hypothesis.

CO: You can't say that these are people who might make things up or be a bit hysterical about anything. These are not [laughing] buttercups, are they?

SM: Well, I think that based on the information I get from taking their histories and the ability to complete physical examinations, it appears evident to me that there are problems. And clearly, that will cause them distress because of not knowing what to do. I've certainly seen that with the intervention we’ve been doing that there has been some level of improvement. Yet, there are some still persisting symptoms, which is what we see with concussion patients. But you're right, I think that something seems amiss here. That something's occurred, in my opinion, having seen these patients and their presentations.

CH: Dr. Shawn Marshall speaking to Carol in November of 2018. Canadian officials say they are reviewing the U.S. findings.

[Music: Ambient]

Australia mango dress

Guest: Jessica Collins

CH: Living on a fruit farm in Australia, Jessica Collins has seen hundreds of mangos turn to mush -- rejected because of blemishes and other imperfections. So when she was pondering her final project for a Design and Technology class, the teenager decided to stitch together food waste and another of her passions: fashion. The result is a stunning gown made from unusual materials. We reached Jessica Collins in Dimbulah, Australia.

CO: Jessica, first of all, can you describe your dress?

JESSICA COLLINS: Well, it's very seedy. And it's got a kind of pearly iridescence colour to it. So when it goes out in the sunlight, it shines, actually. It's very big. But, yeah, it's quite beautiful, actually.

CO: How many mango pits are actually incorporated into the dress?

JC: Yeah, so there's approximately 1,400. So just a couple.

CO: [laughing] How much does it weigh?

JC: It's actually it's quite heavy. It's about five kilos, so it's a couple of seeds on there.

CO: [laughing] I would have thought it would be even heavier because when you get down to the pit, it's a pretty large stone in there, isn't it?

JC: Yeah.

CO: And it's all covered with fibres and everything. I don't see that in the picture I'm looking at. How did you actually make these usable in your dress?

JC: Yeah, so I cut the seeds in half. And I actually I took the seed out from the inside, so I'm just using like the husk. So it's quite shiny on the inside. So I flip the seed on the inside, so you don't actually see the outside fibre.

CO: [chuckling] But isn't the smell of rotting mango on your dress?

JC: No, definitely not. It smells like dried mango if anything. [CO laughs] because we dried all the seeds out. Used Dad’s pressure cleaner, so I completely got all the flesh off. So there's no flesh at all on the seeds. So it's nice and clean.

CO: Now, why did you want to make a dress out of mango pits?

JC: Yeah. So in the shed, because I work in the shed in the season, I've always seen all the waste from the mangoes. And I just wanted to be able to actually, you know, utilize something like that. Because it just gets thrown out and dumped on the farm, and it's never seen again. So if I can use something like that and make an alternate source of income for farmers that are struggling, it would be really good.

CO: Well, do you think that that's possible? Do you think that what you did, the way you've fashioned these seeds, or I guess the pods that this is something other people could use?

JC: Yeah, I would definitely love it to be turned into a fibre as that would be more wearable. So it would be like cotton or silk or linen. And so then they would just be crushed down and turned in to the fibre then. So that would definitely be more suitable. But there's a lot of waste. There's a lot of farms around here that would definitely love to be able to see those mangoes used in a way, instead of just dumping them on the farm. So I definitely think farmers would jump on that.

CO: How much time have you spent picking mangoes and working in the shed? The shed is what, that's the where you are processing the mangoes?

JC: Yeah, so that's where we pack all the mangoes. But, um, I've been working nearly full-time since I was around ten. So, but then, every other year, I was just helping out, but I was a bit small and annoying, so I tried. [both chuckling]

CO: Is this a family business?

JC: Yeah. So we bought the farm when Mum was pregnant with me. And then, ever since, we've just been living on the farm. And then, my little brother was born, and my older brother, he's worked here a couple of years as well. So we all get in and help out around Christmas time, which is all really it's a lot of fun, actually.

CO: And do you like mangoes?

JC: Oh, I love them so much. They're probably my favourite fruit. I'm a massive fruit bag, and anything that's fruit, I’ll always eat, especially mangoes.

CO: And did your family like being part of this project?

JC: I think they did, yeah. So I did all the sewing and everything. They just helped clean the seeds. But my Mum and Dad, they started to think I was crazy. They were like, do you want to build a mini skirt or something like that? I’m like, no, I want the full gown. [both laughing] So I think they started just, like, just let her go. Let her do her thing.

CO: So you made this full gown, which is quite beautiful. And they look very delicate, those little pods, you wouldn't even know that they were from mangoes. And the dresses is glamorous. What was the reaction you got when you actually went online posing with your dress on?

JC: Yeah, I think everyone was quite surprised at how beautiful this dress was. And, you know, that there is food waste and we can use it. So I think everyone was surprised and happy that something was being done about it.

CO: And I guess you had a BBC interview where someone said you were actually called crazy?

JC: [laughing] Yeah, by my teachers and my family, so it didn't stop me, though. [both laughing]

CO: And so now, is this something you're considering, that you would have a career in, well, I guess not just fashion design, but using recycled materials?

JC: Yeah, definitely, I would love to look into it. I have actually gone into uni for nursing, but if I can do that on the side, I would definitely, I would love to do that.

CO: But this was a school assignment. How did you do? What kind of Mark did you get?

JC: Yeah. So the marks actually they come out on the 18th of December, so I haven't got it. But we'll see how I go because it's the major work of my subject, so we'll see how it goes. [laughing]

CO: Well, if international attention is of any benefit to your mark, [laughing] you should probably get an A.

JC: Yes, it’s definitely spread the awareness I wanted.

CO: Jessica, it’s good to talk to you. Thanks.

JC: Thank you.

CO: Bye.

CH: Jessica Collins is a teenager living on a mango farm in Dimbulah, Australia. That's where we reached her. And you can see that dress — and read more — at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Country guitar]

Haida Christmas carols

CH: "The First Noel", "Silent Night", and "The LIttle Drummer Boy" are among the most famous Christmas carols in English. If "pah-rum-pah-pum-pum" counts as English. But this year, singer-songwriter Carsen Gray has reimagined them in the Haida language. Her album came out at the beginning of this month. And this morning, she shared some of that music — and spoke with the CBC's Carolina de Ryk about the challenges she experienced making these recordings.

CARSEN GRAY: A lot of the lines and a lot of the words, I think couldn't be translated, so they just had to go as close as we could get it. But the Haida is a very guttural language. And, you know, when you're saying like a shorter sentence, it goes on much longer. So the tricky part for me while recording was just trying to make all of those syllables and words just fit and flow perfectly with the song, [bright laughter] you know? So it was tricky because you don't want it to sound like it's going too fast or just going on and on past where it's supposed to end. That was the most difficult part for me, I found.

CAROLINA DE RYK: We should point out that the Haida language has been endangered for many years, as fewer and fewer people are able to speak it. What sort of difference do you think it will mean for people to be able to listen to these songs and sing it together?

CG: I think it's amazing because Haida language revitalization is so important to us over here. And I think I’d like to be more involved. It's great to be more involved in helping put out more, you know, books and songs and just different areas where people could enjoy listening and getting familiar with the language again and maybe inspiring others to do the same. I'm doing this book with my mom in the past and then recording this Christmas album has really inspired me to just really get involved with the language and learning fluently. When I was recording these carols, the people that I had in mind first were the elders, because I know Christmas is an important time to us over here. I know that just growing up over here, Christmas has always been everybody's favourite time. And just I know that it was going to touch a lot of the elders hearts. Some were even crying. And that just felt so amazing to know that I touched them like that.

[Music: “The Litte Drummer Boy” as sung in Haida by Carsen Grey]

Part three: Giant Dene mine, Denmark oil & gas

Giant Dene mine

Guest: Ernest Betsina

CH: For decades now, a gold mine in Northwest Territories has been a point of tension between the Yellowknives Dene First Nation and the federal government. The Giant Mine was opened in 1948, in an area that was supposed to be protected for use by the Dene. It produced huge quantities of gold over the years. But extracting that gold also produced thousands of tonnes of toxic arsenic. The Yellowknives Dene have been living with that legacy of contamination ever since. Now, the First Nation is calling for an apology from Ottawa — and compensation. Forty-six years ago, in 1974, on this program, Yellowknife resident and former "As It Happens" producer Kelly Creighton talked about environmental hearings on the contamination.

KELLY CREIGHTON: Yellowknife itself has an area which is called The Old Town, or Lot 500, which is an area in The Old Town where most of the Native people live. And a lot of those people don't have running water. And, traditionally, they always got their water from the Back Bay, and they always fished in the Back Bay and lived off the fish in the Back Bay. But since the mines, they have been unable to do that. And perhaps one of the most dramatic things that happened yesterday at the hearings was the chief of the Yellowknife band, a man named Joe Charlo, got up and told how, since the coming of the mines and the coming of the white man, the water has changed, and the fish have changed. And his people are no longer able to live in the way they used to.

CH: Ernest Betsina is one of the chiefs of the Yellowknives Dene First Nation. We reached him in Detah, Northwest Territories.

CO: Chief Betsina, when you hear that description of the Giant Mine situation back in 1974, almost 50 years ago, what goes through your mind?

ERNEST BETSINA: I was born and raised in Ndilo, and I remember those days so well, so vividly. I grew up in one of those two-bedroom shacks where there's no running water or sewer. You know, we had a slop pail. There was no running water for us back. And I remember Giant Mine, you could visually see it. And the sad legacy from the Giant Mine. I don't remember much good things coming from Giant Mine.

CO: And that clip was from 1974, but the toxic legacy of Giant Mine, this goes back into the ‘40s and ‘50s, doesn't it? And can you just describe what long-lasting effect, what legacy that mine has had on your community?

EB: Maybe I’ll just give you a little sense of the scale of the challenges that we're faced with. There is enough arsenic in the mine, there's 237-thousand tonnes of toxic dust that's stored underground. So to put that in perspective, that's approximately 15, 15-story buildings, side-by-side-by-side. That's how much arsenic is buried under the Giant Mine. That's enough arsenic there to kill everybody in the world, many times over. My elders, they call this big arsenic, they don't know how to say arsenic in their language. So they call it a monster. The Monster of the Giant Mine came between us and a way of life on the land. It still haunts our community. And the social effects that spiral out from the poisoning of the lands, the food insecurity, displacement, intergenerational poverty, loss of meaning, homelessness, misery, despair, alcoholism, suicide. And this is Giant Mine’s toxic legacy. So, like I said, there's so much negative things that I can remember.

CO: This was we go back into the ‘50s of becoming aware of what it was doing. And many people were getting sick. A child died. And what were the promises? What commitments did they make? Did the companies make, did the government make that they were going to clean the place up, that they were going to actually take care of what had happened to it?

EB: Well, way back then, the federal government, they failed us to take care of us before Giant Mine, during Giant Mine. And this is where we want to try to make the wrong right after Giant Mine. So basically, we’re asking for two things, two main things. It’s to heal from the past with a formal apology. And adequate compensation. And to set a good path for the future through remediation contracts.

CO: So the one thing you want is to be able to take part in the reclaiming and the restoration of the land to clean up the mess. The other thing you're asking for is an apology.

EB: That's right, yeah.

CO: And what would that mean for people who are your elders, especially, who remember the early days of what happened with that mine?

EB: Well, because my people have never received an apology from Giant Mine. So part of the reconciliation is to start with a formal apology from the federal government. And also, we have not received monetary gain from the Giant Mine. So we are also asking for compensation. So that way, we can help our people and try to heal from the Giant Mine legacy from the land. Because the Giant Mine itself took away our lands from hunting, trapping, gathering. It was great berry picking around that area. So my people lost a lot of land. Not only land but water because we used to fish in that area. And now we can't. We can't fish. We can't gather. We can't pick berries. We can't hunt in that area. And we certainly can't fish in that area.

CO: You never... the Yellowknife Dene First Nation never benefited from the mine itself. Never got jobs, never got any of the resources that came from that gold mine. But now, what you'd like to see, at least, is that you get something from some contract since they're going to now try and fix the damage. What commitments have you heard from the federal government that they will include you in that project?

EB: Well, right now, everything is hearsay right now. And so basically, what we're asking is we want the government of Canada to come to the table and ensure that after so many decades of toxic legacy, the Yellowknife Dene people will benefit from the cleanup of this land. And to create long-lasting skills, jobs, apprenticeships in many areas in the mining sector. And more importantly, is healing of the land.

CO: We seem to have also already a partial response from the director with the Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada, who said that the federal government is looking for ways to have your First Nation participate, but cannot negotiate a sole source contract with Yellowknife’s Dene on that project. What do you make of that?

EB: I'm certainly hoping that the federal government, we can at least meet and talk about these issues, instead of just stating in the media that they can't negotiate contracts. I mean, let that's come to the table. Let's at least do that.

CO: But this story of Giant Mine and its toxicity and what it did to your First Nation, this story is decades’ old. Do you think that the federal government will actually make it right, will actually do right by your First Nation now?

EB: Well, yes, I do believe that they will make it right. I mean, even though all these years have gone, they have to take the responsibility for the wrongs that they have done to my people. And I'm hoping that they will help us heal from this toxic legacy.

CO: Cheif Betsina, it's good to talk to you. Thank you.

EB: OK, thank you very much.

CO: Bye

EB: Bye-bye.

CH: Ernest Betsina is one of the chiefs of the Yellowknives Dene First Nation. He was in Detah, Northwest Territories.

FOA: Pineapple pizza

GJ: I have nothing against pineapples. But when they're put on a pizza, they get all sort of mushy. And I have five children, and I've been with them on school trips and so on and so forth, and the undeniable fact is that more often than not when you have Hawaiian pizza, the pineapples are taken off and left whereas the rest of the pizza is consumed. So I had to reply in all honesty when I was asked about this debatable issue that I actually didn't like pineapple on pizza.

CO: Okay, but you went one step further, didn't you? You didn't just tell your children take the pineapple off. Sure, good enough, you don't like it. You wanted to ban pineapple on pizza. That's how far you went.

GJ: Yes, that's where you know the influence of this office sort of got the better of me. I went a step too far. I admit that now. And as it happened, I had to issue a clarification after I had voiced my opinion in college up in the northern part of Iceland the following day. This was front page news. So yes, I had to think it through and calm these stormy waters. And I issued a presidential statement on pineapples on pizza. It went like this: I like pineapples, just not on pizza. I do not have the power to make laws which forbid people to put pineapple on their pizza. I am glad that I do not hold such power. Presidents should not have unlimited power. I would not want to hold this position if I could pass laws forbidding that which I don't like. For pizzas, I recommend seafood.

CH: Icelandic President Guðni Jóhannesson, speaking with Carol about pineapple on pizza in a 2018 interview. We’ve revisited this controversy many times on the show. Including earlier this year, when a Montreal restaurant did what Mr. Jóhannesson only threatened to do — flat out banning its chef's version of the pie from menus after patrons voted in a binding referendum. Bàcaro Pizzeria owner Tommaso Mulé spoke with Carol in March.

TM: I'm not a fan. I'm not a fan of pineapple on pizza because it was never something that we grew up in the household. You know, we come from a very Italian background, and our parents would never do such a thing. Let's just put it that way, as nice I can say it. But he made a pizza with pineapple, ricotta, bacon, jalapeno, tomato sauce and some mozzarella, which actually tasted pretty good. So I’m not going to say that I would order it. But when you taste it, it's actually delicious.

CO: And it's called Hawaiian 5O — this pizza?

TM: Hawaiian 5O, correct.

CO: Okay, but now, if you say that it still might be on the menu even after this referendum, I mean, the people have spoken, Tomasso. I mean, how can you go back on that?

TM: I didn't say it would still be on the menu. I said that we decided on whoever wins, it’ll go either way. So right now, the people have spoken. Fifty-three per cent said no. So we have to take it off the menu. And then, you know, maybe there'll be another referendum in four years. [deep laughter]

CH: Montreal pizzeria owner Tommaso Mulé, speaking with Carol about his restaurant's ban on pineapple pizza, in March. It's a decision he may want to reconsider in the wake of news that Hawaiian pizza pies have been a pandemic favourite among Grubhub patrons. Which would surely come as no surprise to their late, Canadian creator, Sam Panopoulos. With the final word on fruity flatbread, here's Sam Panopoulos speaking with "As It Happens" guest host Helen Mann in 2017.

when I first come up with it, there was nothing to it. You know what I mean. It was just another piece of bread cooking on the oven.

HM: Now everybody has pineapple on their pizza it seems?

SP: That’s right.

HM: What is it that inspired you to put pineapple on pizza?

SP: That was back in the late ‘50s you know ‘60s. And pizza wasn't even in Canada — nowhere. Pizza was coming in through Detroit, through Windsor and I was in Chatham and that was the third stop.

HM: In Chatham?

SP: Yeah, and I had a restaurant there. We’re doing all the other things and I went down to Windsor a couple of times and visit places. I said let’s try pizza you know. Then we tried to make some pizza and then along the way, threw some pineapples on it and nobody liked it at first. But after that, they went crazy about it. Because those days nobody was mixing sweets and sours and all this, they were interested in plain food.

HM: You were a pioneer.

SP: Anyway, after that it stays. We’d sell pizzas in Chatham and in London for the next 40-45 years.

HM: Do you like pineapple on your pizza?

SP: Yep, yep. At first, I had a bite and I like it. I pass it to some customers that didn't like it to begin with, but after a while that they went crazy. Everybody wants it. After that, everybody started putting everything on it. You can put sardines. You can put salmon in it. You can put green peppers, onions, whatever you want today and everybody eats it.

HM: So you agree because the President of Iceland also says seafood is good on pizza?

SP: Yeah it is, but after my pineapple.

CH: Sam Panopoulos is the Canadian inventor of Hawaiian pizza. He spoke with Helen Mann in 2017. You can head to our webpage for more tasty material: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Bright instrumental]

Speed skater

[Sound: Skates on ice and wind in hair]

CH: If that sounds cold, it's because it is. But the video posted by Team Canada's speed-skating team is also incredibly beautiful. The team has been having trouble booking indoor ice-time because its usual rink is down for maintenance. So they've taken things outdoors — to Alberta's Gap Lake. And with the mountains in the background and perfect turquoise ice under their skates, you'd wonder why they'd ever want to go back inside. Gilmore Junio is one of the skaters who's been out carving the new ice. He's a member of the national long track speed skating team. And he was a guest on "The Calgary Eyeopener" this morning.

GILMORE JUNIO: I don't know if it maybe takes out the fun of making it to practise or not? But we're loving getting out there and having just having some ice to skate on.

DAVID GRAY: And it's a little bit different quality than your normal ice, isn’t it, Gilmore?

GJ: [slight chjuckle] Just a bit. Just a bit.

DG: [chuckling] Okay, so the video I saw was your team-mates whizzing around Gap Lake near Canmore. Now, people may get mad at me that I named a lake. But come on, people know about it now. And frankly, it looks glorious. So what's it actually like?

GJ: Yeah, I mean we had a couple practises out there. And it’s definitely a little cold in the morning at Gap Lake, when the mountain is blocking out the sun. But the ice itself is great. It's, like I said, it's just great to get on some ice, for sure. It is a little sketchy when you have a couple cracks in the ice. So you just got to watch where you're skating. It has a great view and something that we're definitely not used to when you're being outside and getting on a lake and having the mountains and being in the whole scene. So it definitely makes it a bit better. [chuckle]

DG: Sorry, a little sketchy. You guys go around and around in the same circle! Has it occurred to you what might happen?

GJ: Yeah, we definitely had the idea of, like, in the cartoons, where it's a perfect circle and we all fall through the ice. [DG laughs] But our coaches brought out in auger a couple of times just to check the depth.

DG: Right.

GJ: We're definitely wary of just some of the conditions when it gets a little warmer.

CH: That was Gilmore Junio of the Canadian national long track speed skating team, speaking with David Gray, host of "The Calgary Eyeopener" this morning. And if his name rings a bell, Gilmore Junio was the guy who famously gave up his spot to team-mate Denny Morrison at the 2014 Sochi Olympics in the thousand-metre race, and Denny Morrison went on to win the silver medal.

[Music: Ambient]

Denmark oil & gas

Guest: Dan Jorgensen

CH: When you think of Denmark and energy, you might think of windmills — or, more generally, a devotion to renewable energy. But within the European Union — which excludes Norway, and soon, the UK — Denmark is also the largest oil and gas producer. That's why it was a big deal last week, when the Danish Parliament voted to end all new oil and gas exploration in the North Sea, as part of a plan to phase out fossil fuel extraction entirely by 2050. Dan Jorgensen is Denmark's minister of climate, energy and utilities. We reached him in Copenhagen.

CO: Minister Jorgensen, how big is this decision on the part of Denmark to end oil and gas exploration?

DAN JORGENSEN: It's a very big decision for us. We've been dependent on oil exploration and gas exploration since the 1970s for economic reasons. And, of course, also for energy reasons. But now, we have chosen to change course. So this is a big decision. It's an expensive decision. But we think it's also a necessary decision.

CO: And why is it necessary?

DJ: Well, we've decided we want to be carbon-neutral in 2050. And for us to say that we are carbon-neutral and then still keep exploring oil and abstracting oil from the ground and selling it to other countries, I don't think really would be very credible. Also, we hope, of course, to inspire other countries to follow suit, because we know for a fact that if we are to prevent the worst climate changes, then we need to leave a lot of the oil and gas in the ground.

CO: Are you facing much opposition?

DJ: Well, actually, the good news is that we have reached a broad majority, politically speaking. So we have the most parties in the Danish parliament supporting this. Some people are arguing against, some are saying that this is too expensive a decision compared to what it is that we really get out of it, vis-a-vis the climate. But then, on the other hand, some people argue that we should do it even earlier. But my personal opinion is we've done it in a pace that is rational and that is manageable for our economy, but that is still very ambitious. We are the first oil-producing country that has a real oil production of some size that does this. And we’re the biggest oil producer in the EU.

CO: The biggest oil producer in the European Union. And, as I understand, you've made this deal. It's binding on all future governments. Why was that necessary?

DJ: Well, if we made the deal and it could be changed after the next election, then I don't think it would be very credible. So it's necessary, of course, for the rest of the world if we are to hope that other countries will follow. So from an environmental climate standpoint, it's necessary. But it's also necessary vis-a-vis our investors out there, because there will still be, of course, an oil industry operating for some decades yet. And we need them to know that even though we are closing down their business in the future, they still have some stable framework conditions until that happens.

CO: This has been, since the 1970s, a key part of the welfare state of Denmark, which has enviable, has been reliant on the oil and gas extraction. So almost two-billion dollars Canadian that you are going to remove. So how will you make that up?

DJ: First of all, I'm not trying to make it sound like a smaller deal that it is. It is quite expensive. And we also acknowledge that maybe some other countries would have difficulties making the same decision right now because of the pandemic. But on the other hand, we also think that this will be a sound political decision in the future, also, economically speaking, for two reasons. One is that oil production is going down in any circumstance. Whether or not we make a decision like this, we know that the production of oil will go down and the prices of oil will go down as we get closer to 2050. The European Union has said that we need to be carbon-neutral in 2050. And other countries and regions of the world will probably follow that decision. The second reason is that I think that countries that are now focussing on investing in renewables and transforming and training their workforce into having the skills that's necessary in that new industry, the countries that do that the first will also be the ones that will benefit in the market. So really, even though it's a lot of money to invest in the short-term, we hope that it will actually also help us in the long-term. But first and foremost, we are doing this because it's necessary if we are to be front runners in the fight against climate change. And that, of course, is necessary for idealistic reasons.

CO: So you're taking the lead politically, but are you not following what the markets are doing, if I understand you correctly? I mean, the world's biggest fund managers and investors are divesting, even Norway's wealth fund, one of the world's biggest is divesting oil and gas. So isn't this isn't the writing on the wall, so to speak?

DJ: Well, I think so, actually. I think that's a great point. I think that what we are doing is probably moving forward some decisions that if we didn't take them, the market would take them for us, but they probably would take them a little bit sooner. And that's actually one of my main points to colleagues across the world that you can make a decision now and we have a chance of maybe living up to the Paris Agreement, or you can let the market make the decision for you in a few years and we might not be able to stay below one-point-five degrees in temperature increase. So we might as well do it now. Also, especially because if you do it now, then you have a chance of also restructuring your economy so that you can also train your workforce and give them the skills that they need to get jobs in, for instance, offshore wind instead of offshore drilling.

CO: You have said elsewhere that this was possibly the biggest decision that you have been part of in your life. How important was this for you personally?

DJ: Well, extremely important, obviously. I mean, one year ago, we made a climate law which makes it legally binding for Denmark to reduce our emissions by 70 per cent in 2030 compared to 1990. And some people consider that the most ambitious climate law in the world. So that was obviously also a pretty big deal in our country. And we hope that also others will follow that example and feel inspired. But there's no doubt that a green transformation is not only about creating more incentives. It's not only about spending public money on creating more renewable energy. It's also actually about stopping the use of fossil fuels. So in that sense, especially also taking into consideration the history of Denmark and how many years, decades we've been dependent on this, it really is quite a big deal in my country.

CO: Minister Jorgensen, it’s good to speak with you. Thank you.

DJ: Thank you so much.

CO: Goodnight.

DJ: Goodnight.

CH: Dan Jorgensen is Denmark's minister of climate, energy and utilities. He was in Copenhagen.

[Music: Hip-hop]

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December 07, 2020 Episode Transcript

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