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The AIH Transcript for December 2, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Talia Schlanger

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

TALIA SCHLANGER: Good evening. I'm Talia Schlanger, sitting in for Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

TS: Tonight:

CO: Run at your own risk. Ugandan presidential candidate Bobi Wine says he narrowly survived shots fired at him and his staff by security forces yesterday. He tells us how far he's willing to go for a more democratic Uganda.

TS: Terms and conditions. Three prominent pro-democracy activists have been sentenced to prison in Hong Kong. A fellow activist tells us it's a sign that China sees the movement as a true threat.

CO: Anti-trust. An RCMP officer in Nunavut is cleared of wrongdoing for striking a man with his vehicle. But our guest says the less than transparent investigation and its conclusion only fosters distrust of the justice system.

TS: History hits home. After the remains of an unidentified First World War soldier were discovered in Belgium, archivists traced them back to Newfoundland -- and finally, to a single missing teenager.

CO: I beg your pardon? We ask a former federal prosecutor about news that Donald Trump may supply his children, his lawyer, and possibly himself with get-out-of-jail-free cards before they've even been charged with any crimes.

TS: And by popular demand. South Korean lawmakers have passed a so-called BTS law postponing mandatory military service for the country's pop superstars. As It Happens. The Wednesday Edition. Radio that knows it's the exception that proves the cool.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Ugandan presidential candidate Bobi Wine pauses campaign, but vows to keep fighting

Bobi Wine

Guest: Bobi Wine

TS: Bobi Wine is taking a break from the campaign trail in Uganda. The former pop star and presidential candidate announced he was temporarily suspending his tour today after his campaign team was targeted by Uganda's security forces. Bobi Wine, whose real name is Robert Kyagulanyi, was arrested just weeks ago, a move that prompted massive protests and more than 30 people were killed. For months, Mr. Wine has faced repeated arrest, spurious charges, and daily threats of violence. He's seen as the strongest political challenger to the longtime president of Uganda, 76 year old Yoweri Museveni. The two are on the ballot in the new year on January 14th. We reached Bobi Wine in Kampala.

CO: Bobi Wine you have faced violent resistance from security forces before. Why have you decided to suspend your campaign now?

BOBI WINE: Well, I went out on the campaign trail and I was always being oppressed by the security forces. First I was arrested and more than 100 people were shot dead by the police and the military. The electoral commission did not come out to say anything about it. But when I went on the campaign trail again, the police murdered five more people by running over them. The electoral commission still did not say anything. Now, just yesterday, when I went on the campaign trail, besides beating and tear gassing and shooting live bullets at my people, my car was shot by the military and even a shot was fired in the windscreen of my car. Miraculously, it did not get anybody.

CO: You had a number of the people in your campaign who were badly injured, including your music producer who was shot in the mouth with a rubber bullet. What is their condition now?

BW: Well, my music producer lost some teeth and he had his face shattered. He went through an operation yesterday and the doctors are still watching him. Also, I was informed that the head of my security is in stable condition. The rest of the people I've not had a chance to be in touch with them directly because some of them are living out of town.

CO: By suspending your campaign, though, for president, isn't that what Uganda's President Museveni wants you to do? Isn't that the point? Aren't you playing into his hands?

BW: Suddenly, Museveni would want me to suspend the campaign, but we suspended the campaign for only yesterday and today because we wanted to speak to the electoral commission. Now, tomorrow, we are hitting the campaign trail again.

CO: Why are they so determined to stop you? There has been opposition before. What is it about your campaign that seems to have the Museveni government rattled?

BW: This is not politics as usual. This is one generation rising up to take its place in history. This is a generation that is saying we are first world brains, stuck in a third world country because we have that world leaders. This is a generation that is calling for a massive awakening of the common people, of the young people who are the majority -- in Uganda today, out of 45 million, we are estimated to be 85 percent under the age of 35. We believe we can shape our destiny and change it like all other countries have done. We believe that it is our generation that is tasked with ending dictatorship and reintroducing democracy and giving power finally back to the people. It is a mass awakening where the people of Uganda have decided to massively come out and speak through a vote.

CO: When you speak of those young people, that includes you, doesn't it? You are, I believe, 38 years old. You are only three years old when President Museveni came to power. But you have seen in recent months and weeks as you've campaigned, that many people who have been supporting have been killed, have been shot because they are supporting you. Are you concerned about their safety because you do have so many followers?

BW: Yes, I am very concerned. It is clear that he is ready to kill anybody that disagrees with him politically. All the police officers now don't wear their nametags anymore because they don't want to be identified because they know what they are doing is illegal.

CO: You saw though President Museveni on television on the weekend. He was quite clear -- he was wearing his military jacket. He called opposition parties criminal gangs. He vowed to do what had to be done to suppress the movement, the people who are opposing him for the election in January. What concerns do you have for yourself?

BW: Well, I have the same concerns that I have for everybody. I would love to make myself a different case at my most of the cameras that are looking at me and whatever is being done to me is being watched. That is why I would be right if I said I only take a small percentage of the pain and oppression and the beatings and the murder and the intimidation that the wider population takes. Everybody in Uganda is unsafe.

CO: As we head to this election in January, after what you saw of President Museveni in his address to the nation, how far do you think he is willing to go to stop the opposition to his power?

BW: We know that General Museveni is ready and in fact willing to do anything to maintain his power. But equally, the people of Uganda that have been oppressed for 35 years, many of them all of their lives, are willing to also stand firm, to be beaten, to be tear gassed, to go to prison or even to die in order to stop their enslavement in their own country.

CO: And how far are you willing to go to oppose him?

BW: I don't know if there's any further than saying we shall live and if need be, die for our freedom. You know, for us, we have only one thought. We believe that the law should be followed. And according to our law, all power belongs to the people. According to our law, all of us are equal before under the law. According to our law, we have freedom of speech, freedom of expression, freedom of association. And according to our law, we are supposed to go to an election and choose our leader.

CO: Bobby Wine, we will be following the coming days and the election through January. Thank you so much for speaking with us tonight.

BW: Thank you very much for having me.

TS: Bobi Wine is running to be Uganda's next president. We reached him in Kampala. You can find more on this story on our: webpage: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Trump pardons

Guest: Shan Wu

TS: Donald Trump may be planning an early Christmas present for his three eldest children and his favourite personal lawyer. The New York Times reports that the president is considering blanket pardons for Donald Trump Jr., Eric Trump, Ivanka Trump and her husband, Jared Kushner. The outgoing U.S. president's personal lawyer, Rudolph Giuliani, is also allegedly on the list. Now, none of the Trumps has been charged with a crime, so a pardon would give them a pass for any federal laws they may have broken during the Trump presidency and perhaps even before that. The bow on top of that gift, the possibility that Donald Trump might try to pardon himself. Shan Wu is a former U.S. federal prosecutor who also served as counsel to Attorney General Janet Reno. We reached him in Alexandria, Virginia.

CO: Shan, all these pardons and potential pardons of friends and family members, what does this say about the past four years of the White House?

SHAN WU: Well, it says that there seem to be a lot of people very worried now as the administration is drawing to a close. It's certainly an unprecedented level of pardon activity in many ways. But one of the most obvious, unusual situations here is that these are all people that are so close to the president's inner circle.

CO: What do you make of the possibility that he will preemptively pardon his children?

SW: Yeah, what's particularly disturbing about that, one, is that just sort of the moral kind of outrage that he may be just trying to protect people who have been actively engaged in criminal acts because typically you'll see with pardons long ago behaviour and the person has lived a long time since then and sort of paid back their debt to society. But this has a real sense of as an ongoing type of criminal activity, so it's particularly outrageous. But the other thing that's very unusual about it is that it's so speculative in terms of what the pardon would be. These are people who have not yet been charged yet. What he would be doing with his children and son in law, perhaps himself, is this very broad based pardon, which the language would have to be so broad as to really have the effect of conferring immunity. The biggest problem for him is if he gives a timeline, let's say hypothetically, five years before he took office, it's like a road map for the prosecutors to say, oh, that's when the bad conduct started. So there's a problem.

CO: So also with a preemptive pardon, wouldn't he have to declare what crimes is pardoning? And wouldn't that be incriminating?

SW: It would be he might try not to declare it. He could use very broad language of any federal offences. But you're exactly right. If he says for tax cases, again, that's the roadmap to the prosecutors, if he says bank fraud, same problem. And of course, another flaw in that defensive move, the pre-emptive move, is that it can only cover federal prosecutions brought by the United States Department of Justice, state prosecutions could still go on. And certainly some of the biggest dangers President Trump faces right now are from the New York state prosecution.

CO: Okay so now the children, Donald Trump Jr., Eric Trump, Ivanka Trump and son in law, Jared Kushner, what potential crimes do you think might be in Donald Trump's mind when he's thinking of preemptively pardoning them?

SW: It sounds like tax fraud is a big concern with the way that their salaries, their consulting fees may be being used as business expenses for them, for him, for the Trump organisation. So I think the tax issue is one that should be very worrisome.

CO: What about Rudy Giuliani? That's another one that is possibly going to be preemptively pardoned for some unknown period of time. What might that be about?

SW: Yeah, that's a little bit mysterious. There is some sort of a Southern District investigation going on already. So he may be worried about that. It could have to do with his own business dealings. It could have to do with his failure to disclose under the Foreign Agents Registration Act the fact that he'd been working for foreign governments. Maybe he should have registered. It's very hard to figure out what's in the black box of Rudy's mind.

CO: Some of the commentators on Fox News are suggesting that he should do these pardons because the Biden administration will come after him, that this is to protect him and his family against arbitrary charges that are just intended for revenge. What do you say to that?

SW: I'd say that's their projections of their own bad intentions. That's very much what Trump wanted Attorney General Barr to do on his behalf. I think Barr did do some of that bidding, but clearly was not aggressive enough to suit Trump's tastes or the Fox News commentators taste. I think the Biden Justice Department, with whoever he chooses as attorney general, is going to be more of a return to the traditional norm. But there is serious room for concern as to whether criminal activity really happened from what we've seen from The New York Times disclosure of the financial records from the Michael Cohen testimony. So I think, you know, where there's smoke, there's fire and there is some fire there.

CO: And on that smoke and fire, as you mentioned earlier, the speculation that Donald Trump could pardon himself preemptively. Is there anything that could stop him from trying to do that?

SW: That is a very hot topic with many constitutional scholars. They fall into two camps saying that that would not be the framers intent and others saying it perfectly falls within the language. My view is that he absolutely does have the power to do that. It simply states in the Constitution that the executive can grant the pardon. There's no exception he can't grant it to himself.

CO: Right. And so, again, what might he be wanting to preemptively pardon himself for?

SW: Yes. Same problem as the pardon with the kids, unknown what he's trying to do. I think he would need to look at the Gerald Ford model for the pardoning of Nixon, and he would say that it would be for various unspecified offences that occurred during his presidential term. That's what Ford did for Nixon because of the Watergate break in.

CO: Just finally, it came out yesterday that the Justice Department in the U.S. is reviewing evidence of a possible scheme to obtain presidential pardons in exchange for "substantial political contributions." Now, that would surely be criminal, yes?

SW: Oh, yes. That would be quite criminal, very classic case of bribery. And yet another example of some of the dangers that Trump faces, because presumably whoever is under suspicion for that being investigated would be people very close to his inner circle who could potentially give up information that Trump knew about it himself. So that, again, is another area of grave danger for him.

CO: Wow. Okay, we'll leave it there. Shan thank you.

SW: You're welcome.

TS: Shan Wu is a former U.S. federal prosecutor and served as counsel to Attorney General Janet Reno. He was in Alexandria, Virginia.

[Music]

WWI soldier remains

Guest: Greg Walsh

TS: It's a mystery 100 years in the making. In August 1916, a Newfoundland teenager did what many teenagers did during the First World War: he lied about his age. And having done so, he was able to enlist and was sent overseas to Belgium. He was reported missing in action almost exactly a year later and he remained MIA until now. Greg Walsh is an archivist at The Rooms in St. John's. He spent the better part of the past year tracking down John Lambert's descendants after his then unidentified remains were discovered in 2016. We reached Mr. Walsh in St. John's.

CO: Greg, we know that the remains of this soldier were found in Belgium a few years ago. How did they trace them back to Newfoundland?

GREG WALSH: Very simply and very basically, they found shoulder or military insignia, badges and epaulettes with the remains. They did some research on those and realised that three of them were likely British units. And they found a simple bronze NAFLD shoulder badge with one of them. And they figured this must be a member of the Royal Newfoundland Regiment.

CO: There were so many young people, young men and women, but so many soldiers who went off from Newfoundland. How difficult was it to try and figure out who he might have been?

GW: It was very difficult, Carol. I mean, we had a list of 16 names of soldiers who were killed in action with no known grave. But we did not know it would be one of those. I managed to find relatives living descendants all over the world, not just here in St. John's or in Newfoundland, for 13 of those 16 individuals.

CO: So you wanted to be able to match DNA, is that right?

GW: Yes. I was told right from the beginning when I accepted the mission, so to speak, I was told that the purpose of this is for me to find local, you know, living people with a direct DNA connection to any of these individuals for the purposes of testing them, people that I thought were related to these 16 soldiers.

CO: How much more difficult was it in your search to find out who it was, given that the young man actually lied about his age, you didn't have an accurate birth date for him?

GW: That's correct. As many of them did, you know, I mean, they were signing up for an adventure at the time and an experience and a trip and everything else. It was about probably eight months into the process when I was informed that I was encouraged to focus on probably four or five of the younger ones, because in simple terms, the DNA analysis was pointing to an individual that was young, as young as 15 is what I was told at the time. So it was a little bit puzzling, I think, for my colleagues in Ottawa as well, because we all thought we were looking, of course, for somebody a lot older than that.

CO: So you finally figured it out. It was this young fellow, John Lambert, only 16 years old, when he shipped out first to Scotland and then on to Belgium. What was it like when you finally figured it out and knew who he was?

TS: Oh, my, Carol. I mean, we make amazing discoveries in archives all the time. We help researchers make discoveries on their own. But when you're the one looking, when the archivist becomes the researcher, so to speak, it's very very satisfying to find exactly what you're looking for. I kind of, in my gut, had a feeling it was one of two individuals. I kind of thought it was at least one of the younger members, a man on the list that I had. So I had his name, we just did not have the DNA match. The other highlight for me was seeing his face, and that just happened on Friday past.

CO: What do you mean? It was a photograph of his face?

GW: Yes, because even though we knew his name, we searched our records here and we searched the records of local archives around St. John's and, of course, online resources. And we could not find a photo of John Lambert, despite the fact we have photos of thousands of soldiers who served, many of them unknown. But my understanding is that the family provided the photograph to the casualty identification program people in Ottawa on Remembrance Day this year. So it was bittersweet for them too. And once I saw that and saw how young he looked, I felt an immediate connection.

CO: What has the family said now? Because I guess they supply the DNA. Who was it that actually was able to connect with him?

GW: It was one of the oldest members of the family. I believe it was a Private Lambert's niece, Patricia. Her name is her first name. I have actually not been speaking with the family. I was not present, nor should I have been during the official next of kin notification ceremony that happened just Friday past. I have corresponded with them via email since. The two things that struck me is that they kept his memory alive amongst them all since he didn't come home for 103 years. They referred to him as Uncle Jack regularly at family gatherings. You know, they had photos and mementos of his in various homes and locations. So they kept him alive. And a lot of people with relatives, you know, they're not close, they know that uncle whoever or papa whoever served in the war, but they don't know what he did, they don't have a picture of him. This family did. And the other thing that has struck me is that I think -- well, I know because one of the descendants told me in writing this has brought that family closer together geographically and emotionally at a time when, you know, we all need a bright story during dark times. But it's also putting an identity to him and knowing that he will have an official final resting place in Belgium just down the road, my understanding is, from where he was found at a place called the New Irish Farm Cemetery.

CO: And are you hoping to be there?

GW: Fingers crossed, Carol. I would, if my employer lets me go and if I can get on a plane during these strange times, I would be honoured to be part of his final journey, so to speak.

CO: Greg, thank you for telling us the story.

GW: You're very welcome. Take care.

TS: Greg Walsh is the director of the provincial archives at The Rooms and the provincial archivist of Newfoundland and Labrador. We reached him in St. John's.

[Music]

BTS Law

TS: Young people in South Korea are rejoicing. Rejoicing online about newly passed legislation, there are tweeting things like "what a day to be alive" and "because of my joy, I can't sleep." There are lots of heart emojis flying around too. Lawmakers were spurred by the fast approaching 28th birthday of a member of the K pop megastar boyband BTS. Under South Korean law, military service is mandatory for able bodied men who must enlist on or before their 28th birthday to serve for 20 months. But imagine the disruption to the careers of the young stars of K-pop. I mean, one minute you're busy doing what you're told, practising your choreographed moves, having made sure your hair and clothing conform to rigid standards. And the next you're in boot camp doing what you're told, practising tightly choreographed moves, making sure your appearance conforms to, well, you know. Anyhow, those so-called BTS Law now allows certain top ranking K-pop performers to postpone their military service so they can complete their mission of world cultural domination, which is just dynamite.

[Music]

Part 2: Hong Kong activist sentenced

Hong Kong activist sentenced

Guest: Jeffrey Ngo

[Crowd sound]

TS: That is the sound of people in Hong Kong bidding farewell to Joshua Wong, Ivan Lam and Agnes Chow as they are driven away in a prisoner van. Today, the Hong Kong activists were sentenced for taking part in a protest last June against police brutality. Mr. Wong received the longest sentence at 13 and a half months. The prison sentences were expected. As China cracks down on dissidents. But Jeffrey Ngo says the news is still hard to hear. He's one of the founding members of the since disbanded pro-democracy group, Demosisto, which he organised alongside the arrested activists. He's completing his PhD in history at Georgetown University. We reached him in Washington, D.C..

CO: Jeffrey, what do you know about how your friends took the news in court today in Hong Kong?

JEFFREY NGO: Yes, so my friends, Joshua Wong, Agnes Chow, and Ivan Lam, they've been sent to prison. But it's quite tough on them. Joshua, for him, you know, this is his fourth time in prison, but this is his longest sentence ever. And Agnes, this will be her first time.

CO: Joshua Wong, he's been in prison before, even though that doesn't make it easier. But for Agnes Chow, she is quite young. How is she taking it? What do you know? Apparently, she was very emotional in court today.

JN: Yes. So from news accounts and from friends, I know that she was quite emotional about her sentencing. She is actually turning 24 tomorrow on Thursday. So, you know, it's already Thursday in Hong Kong. So this is going to be quite tough on her.

CO: What kind of conditions will she face in prison?

JN: So she will be held separately in the facility for women only, whereas for Joshua and for Ivan, there will be a facility for male inmates only. It can be difficult because there are new restrictions imposed on all inmates in general because of COVID-19. So the visits are less frequent and there's less, you know, social time with other inmates. And so their ability to move around and all that, even while serving their sentences might be limited.

CO: Joshua Wong has said elsewhere that the last time he was in prison, he was put in solitary confinement for some days, which he said that as hard as it's been in the past, there was nothing more awful for him than that time spent in solitary. Is there a chance that that might happen again?

JN: It might. You know, the correctional officers, it's no secret that they find Joshua a troublemaker. And so what happened was that about two weeks ago when he was first sent, as is the usual case, they all have to do an X-ray scan. And the correctional officers claim that there was a foreign object in his stomach, but they never actually provided him any evidence of that. But in any case, in that name they held him in solitary confinement, in a separate cell with lights turned on for 24 hours and no interaction with other inmates. So, you know, he's expected to spend almost the entirety of 2021 behind bars that the correctional officers might make it a tough time for him.

CO: These people, Joshua Wong, Ivan Lam, Agnes Chow, they're very young. They have become heroes to many young people throughout Asia, around the world really. And they represent the activists who are standing up to one of the most formidable regimes in the world, the Chinese government. So how much of a threat do they pose to Beijing, do you think?

JN: Well, certainly a big threat in the eyes of Beijing. The reality is that, you know, back in 2014 during the umbrella movement, they were actually much more prominent on the ground and seen as student leaders. By 2019, it was Hong Kong's resistance largely evolved into a leaderless movement. And so their influence on the ground has had actually been diminished. But they are still very strong symbols and they are widely known internationally, which is why I think that even though their role in the protests last year weren't as big, you know, that Beijing still wants to make sure that they can be silenced.

CO: But at the same time, in order to keep them out of action, there are more charges coming, aren't there? There have been other charges, including under this very severe national security law. So they are going to face more trials, possibly more convictions and a pile up of more jail time. Is that right?

JN: Yes. Unfortunately, you know, these cases can easily pile on to one another. The national security law that you mentioned had been in effect since early this year after three of them -- Agnes Chow had already been arrested for violating national security law a few months ago, formal charges had not yet been pressed against her, but that could come in any time while she's still behind bars. Same goes for Joshua. He has not been arrested for that, but there's no reason to think that Beijing won't do it if they want to. So the sentencing today, that's the bare minimum that they will face. But it's likely that more charges will come.

CO: Agnes Chow, in an interview, she said that she was traumatised by all this. The arrests, coming to her house, doorbells, knocks on the door, all of this has left her deeply traumatised. How do you think she's doing?

JN: She's probably having the toughest time. You know, as I said earlier, this is her first time serving, her sentence. Indeed, it is true that she she has faced a lot of house arrest in connection to this case and then also the national security law case that I was talking about a moment ago -- you know, in all these instances, a team of police went to her house and took her away. You know, even for someone like Agnes who has been in Hong Kong in the public eye for so many years, it i very challenging. And and they are not the only ones. I mean, there are numerous anomalous protesters as well who have been arrested over the past year or so. And for all of them, this is similarly going to be very very tough.

CO: If you could talk to your friend Agnes now, what would you say to her?

JN: Well, you know, it's tough. Well, first of all, I would wish her a happy birthday, because, as I said, you know, she turns 24 tomorrow, our time, you know, already in Hong Kong, you know, and just ask her to stay strong.

CO: Jeffrey we'll leave it there and we'll be following this story. Thank you for speaking with us.

JN: Thank you.

TS: Jeffrey Ngo is a Hong Kong activist and PhD student at Georgetown University. We reached him in Washington.

[Music]

Brian Pallister

TS: Brian Pallister wants a vaccine rollout strategy and he wants it to start with clear direction from Ottawa. The Manitoba premier used the example of Manitoba's Indigenous people to make his point. And that has Indigenous leaders suggesting that the premier check his facts. Here's Premier Pallister speaking to reporters in Winnipeg.

BRIAN PALLISTER: I think that it would be really helpful if we had clear criteria from the federal government on who's going to get it and also who is going to deliver it. The who, what, and when -- they can do. We can do the where and how. We're happy to help. But I'll give you an example of where this is going to be a serious problem. Manitoba has the highest percentage of Indigenous people in the country. I asked the prime minister on our call last week, who's in charge of addressing the needs of on-reserve Indigenous people to get a vaccine? Who's in charge? And I didn't get a clear answer. We need to know that, because if it's the federal government, then when? Because half of our Indigenous people don't live on reserve. But if a vaccine is made available on northern reserves before it's available in southern Manitoba, we're going to have an outpouring, a migration of folks naturally who want to get vaccinated up to northern communities may be taken COVID with them. This is not a plan. We need a plan. Conversely, if that who is that we're in charge, fine, then we can proceed immediately. And we already are proceeding on a number of fronts with our planning. But when we have, you know, close to one in five of our folks here are Indigenous, it's awfully critical that we understand who is going to be doing that work. And we need answers on that. I'm adamant that this is frankly, this is a very emotional issue for Canadians. The Canadians deserve to have some answers to these questions. This is lifeboat time. And we know that we can't have everybody on the limited number of lifeboats that are going to appear as vaccines come in limited numbers in dribs and drabs, that's what the federal government is expecting I think. We're going to have a rush for people that want to get that vaccine right away. We better at least share with Canadians when they're likely going to be able to get that vaccine, because this is a matter of life and death and there's not much more emotional than that.

TS: That was Manitoba Premier Brian Pallister speaking yesterday. Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs Grand Chief Arlen Domus called the premier's comments, "uninformed" and urged Mr. Pallister to talk to the Indigenous leaders who have some experience with jurisdictional fights like this. Manitoba's NDP leader, Wab Kinew.

WAB KINEW: It sounds like the premier iis making excuses for the lack of him having a vaccine plan here. You don't have to come from a reserve to know that First Nations have major challenges around health care that are long standing. And so for the premier to try and use that as an excuse to deflect attention away from the fact that he's failed to tell us who's going to get vaccinated here in Manitoba, how the province is going to roll that out, and when we should expect to be able to see those things. It does a real disservice. It does a disservice to all the people who've won those decisions at the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal, saying that on-reserve health care has been underfunded for many years. But importantly, it also does a disservice for all those Manitobans who want to know what the plan is when it comes to vaccines.

TS: That was Manitoba NDP leader Wab Kinew in Winnipeg yesterday responding to comments by the premier, Brian Pallister.

[Music]

Nunavut mountie cleared

Guest: Benson Cowan

TS: Back in June, a video was posted online about a man in Kinngait, Nunavut, stumbling along a snowy street. He appears intoxicated and as he gets up from a fall, an RCMP pickup truck drives towards the man he struck with an open door and knocked to the ground. Five officers then arrest the man. The video shot just a week after George Floyd's death in the U.S. went viral and an investigation was launched. The RCMP officer who drove the truck was removed from the community yesterday. That officer was cleared of any wrongdoing by the Ottawa Police Service, which investigates major incidents involving the RCMP in Nunavut. Benson Cowan is the chief executive of Nunavut's Legal Services Board. Today we reached him in Ottawa.

CO: Mr. Cowan, what was your reaction when you heard that this officer had been cleared in this incident?

BENSON COWAN: My reaction was less to the issue of him being cleared than it was the way in which it's communicated. I respect that investigations produce, you know, results, and sometimes those results are charges and sometimes they're not. What I think the issue in this case is that the amount of detail is so staggeringly small. And what we're being told by the OPS doesn't accord with what we see in the video and what we also know to be true about the events that night. And so it raises a lot of questions. And my concern is that it ultimately undermines the confidence that people in the communities in Nunavut can possibly have in the investigation of a police officer.

CO: And so OPS, the Ottawa Police Service, which was the agency that did the review. And so we don't know much more, except that they said that they have concluded that there was no intention to harm this man and there's no evidence of dangerous operation of a motor vehicle or criminal negligence. But what do you see in the video that you still would like to know more about?

BC: Well, I think there's two things that immediately sort of spring out in that video. One is that even if we accept the characterisation that the vehicle slipped on the ice and the door slipped open and happened to strike him -- what's clear is that the officer was driving quickly and very close to someone who was clearly vulnerable. So the speed and the direction and the location of the car, I think, requires more explanation. But I think most critically, within moments, there are four officers, and then a little while later, a fifth officer on top of the individual making an arrest. And the Ottawa Police Service goes out of their way to say that this was a lawful arrest. And there's nothing on the video that suggests that this man is a danger to the public. He may be a danger to himself. He appears to be clearly intoxicated. But there's nothing that warrants a car moving at that speed and nothing that warrants five officers jumping on him and making this arrest. And we know afterwards that he was never charged criminally. And without providing any more details, and we're left to see a conclusion that is at odds with what a video clearly shows us and a video that clearly tells us that this is a strange occurrence and that there's something that requires further explanation.

CO: The video has been seen by large numbers of people in the community, in your community, beyond, people in Nunavut, people everywhere. And very disturbing to watch it. So what effect does that have on any trust that there might be for the RCMP at this point, which is already pretty slim, isn't it?

BC: The relationship between the RCMP and Nunavut is complicated, and this is part of the tragedy of this, that there are there are definitely people who believe that there's a need for a good and effective police presence in the community. But the faith in the RCMP to deliver effective police services is undermined on a regular basis in Nunavut by overcharging, by a systemic indifference to violence and the human rights, the basic rights of people in the community. And when something like this happens in the investigation is again, just a conclusion and there's no transparency and no analysis, it only furthers to undermine the people who would support the RCMP and try and explain their value and the important role they serve and to foster distrust in, frankly, not just the RCMP, but the whole of the administration of justice. They tend to often see the administration of justice as being something where the actors in it are closer to each other than they are to the communities and that their interests are more wrapped up in each other than they are in the communities.

CO: Is there any chance of getting more transparency, learning more from either the Ottawa Police Service or from any other investigation to determine really what happened in a broader and more complete way?

BC: So far as I'm aware, there are no legal barriers to either the Ottawa police or the RCMP releasing more information. It is a choice that the Ottawa Police Service and the RCMP, primarily the RCMP, it's a choice that they're making, it's entirely in their control.

CO: You mentioned that the man himself was never charged. He was taken into custody. He was put into a cell where he was beaten so badly he had to be airlifted to hospital. There is a separate enquiry into what happened in that cell and what happened within his arrest. What questions do you still want answered from that enquiry?

BC: What I hope from it is that we don't get these sort of little pieces of what happened, but that the RCMP take it upon themselves to support the community in knowing what happened from beginning to end that evening. Policing is a critical service in remote northern Indigenous communities. And the RCMP needs to take it upon itself to not just ensure that there's a higher quality and proper character of service, but it's done so in a way that's culturally appropriate. And this is an opportunity for everyone to get together and have a conversation about how to make that happen. But the type of secrecy and the type of conclusory approach that we see in this investigation prevents that from happening.

CO: We will leave it there and hopefully we will get more answers. Mr Cowan I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

BC: Thank you.

TS: Benson Cowan is the chief executive of Nunavut Legal Services Board today. He was in Ottawa.

[Music]

Nicholas Fuzesy

TS: Regina, Saskatchewan may not be known for its world class architecture, but one local teenager is giving the world a masterclass in his hometown anyway. Nicholas Fuzesy is a 16 year old who has devoted countless hours to replicating Regina within the virtual confines of the video game, Minecraft. He's getting a complete replica of the city would take about 100,000 hours to finish, give or take. But he's made a pretty good dent already. Nicholas Fuzesy she spoke with the CBC about his efforts.

NICHOLAS FUZESY: First of all, I started with the Hill Towers, the most famous buildings, I'd say in Regina. And then from there, I'm just doing the 12 city blocks around Victoria Park. And my final project is going to be finishing Victoria Park. So what I do is I go block by block. I start from each city block. I feel the my favourite buildings from that block and then I sort of build the abstract buildings. So far I've gotten the Canada Life building, the TD Bank building. I've gotten the [inaudible] power building, the Blessed Sacrament. I've gotten to Hotel Saskatchewan. Those are just some of the recognisable buildings I already have.

TED DELLER: This is fascinating. How do you know how big the buildings are when you're recreating them, how do you measure things?

NICHOLAS FUZESY: Well, I use Google Earth and in Google Earth you can measure this scale using a ruler so you can measure like the horizontal and vertical width of buildings and roads and such. So what I do is I measure the on-the-ground stuff. And then if I need the height of a building, I usually go on like a Wikipedia article. The Wikipedia article for the tallest buildings in Regina is a great one. I find the height of the building that I'm looking at and then I basically have all the dimensions that I need.

TED DELLER: What is the reward for you in doing all of this?

NICHOLAS FUZESY: The reward for me, the sort of satisfaction of completing it, and it's also nice to look back at your creation like it's a really cool thing to get up like fly up and see every single building you've built and just kind of see the detail of it. And it's really cool to know that, like, you've built every block of that and you were sort of the sculptor of that. And I get real satisfaction from that.

TED DELLER: Are you going to do the CBC building?

NICHOLAS FUZESY: Yeah, definitely. Once I get to it, maybe I'll even start that now as an homage to this.

TS: Nicolas Fuzesy is a high school student from Regina. He spoke with the CBC's Ted Deller about his Minecraft project.

[Music]

Joe Bellinger

TS: It was supposed to be a picturesque diving trip off the coast of Santa Cruz Island, California. But in the early hours of September 2nd last year, the dive boat conception caught fire. 34 people died. Most on board were trapped below deck sleeping. The five crew members who sleep on the top deck survived. Yesterday, the captain was charged with 34 counts of seaman's manslaughter. Investigators say Jerry Boylan didn't conduct mandatory fire drills and that a required nightwatch wasn't posted. The morning after the deadly fire, Carol spoke with Joe Bellinger. He's been on that boat many times over the past 40 years, four dive trips, including a week before the fire. Here he is describing what it's like below deck.

JOE BELLINGER: If you board the boat onto the main deck where the diving happens, they actually will walk into the galley, into the main structure of the boat, to the front the bow, and there's a staircase that goes down into the hole of the boat. They're sleeping in there. They have curtains on the beds and air conditioning vents that go into each individual bunk area.

CO: And they have had several days of diving and pleasure on the boat so they're tired, they're sleeping. What would it have been like down there when they realised the boat was on fire?

JOE BELLINGER: You know, speculating on what I've seen is the combustion or the explosion would have had to be spontaneous and big, something big first to prevent the crew from being able to assist in a rescue. So every diver at the end of the day is really poofed, hree, four or five dives in a day, really training your body so you typically are in a deep sleep. So that's point number one. And point number two, that deck where you're sleeping, the lower deck is on the same level as the engine room. So whatever happened, if it was indeed like an explosion from the oxygen tanks, they do have pure oxygen. If it did happen like that, the smoke would engulf more than likely that lower deck, making it hard to find your way out.

CO: But what you're describing is that there's not many ways to get out. So do you think the outcome of this could possibly be a review about how these diving boats are prepared for this kind of a possibility?

JOE BELLINGER: Well, I know that all boats are built to a standard that the Coast Guard has to sign off on. But I would say that the scale of what happened on this boat is far beyond the ability to get out. They just didn't have the ability to get out, even if there was multiple escape routes just because of the accelerated pace of the emergency. So do I think it's going to change the industry? I think there will be some influence. I think that Truth Aquatics will cease their operations until they figure out exactly what happened. I think divers are going to think twice and question whether they want to jump on a boat.

TS: That was Joe Bellinger speaking with Carol in September 2019. Yesterday, the captain of the conception was charged with 34 counts of seaman's manslaughter.

[Music]

Part 3: U.S. congresswoman calls out Nike, Apple and Coca-Cola for lobbying against Uighur labour bills

Nike/Coke Uighur bill

Guest: Jennifer Wexton

TS: Working to ensure goods imported into the U.S. don't depend on the forced labour of Uighur detainees in China seems like a noble goal. But according to new reporting from The New York Times and Washington Post, companies like Nike, Coca-Cola and Apple are spending millions lobbying to water down two pieces of legislation designed to monitor products coming from China's Xinjiang region. Democratic Congresswoman Jennifer Wexton is the author of one of the bills and co-sponsor of another. We reached her in Washington, D.C..

CO: Ms. Wexton, first of all, can you briefly just tell us what these two bills are designed to do?

JENNIFER WEXTON: Well, they're designed to stop the use of forced labour and products that arise from forced labour from the Xinjiang region of China. The Chinese government has been rounding up Uighur Muslims for years and putting them in camps and forcing them to work in factories solely for the crime of being Uighur. And it's horrifying and it needs to stop.

CO: And there is evidence that they are being used in labour camps or in labour situations to manufacture, isn't it?

JW: Yes. And in fact, the Chinese Communist Party is building more and more of these camps and accelerating the use of them.

CO: The companies principally who are lobbying against this or lobbying to have changes to your bills are Apple, Nike, Coca-Cola, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. What are they trying to do? What changes do they want to make to your laws?

JW: Well, I don't know, because they haven't come to me to try to make changes to my piece of legislation. But the word is that they're trying to water down some of the enforcement provisions while publicly proclaiming that they are very much against condemning forced labour. They're going behind the scenes and trying to change the law.

CO: And why is it that if they're against it, that they say that this is not in their interest, then why would they want to change your bills?

JW: Because it's going to impact their supply chains and make it harder for them to profit off of this forced labour. If they're not using it, it wouldn't be a problem. But, you know, it appears that they are using it. And if they are auditing their supply chains the way they're supposed to, this legislation wouldn't be an issue.

CO: And, you know, how powerful are the lobbyists for these companies?

JW: They're quite powerful. So, you know, I'm not particularly optimistic, but I know that we have a new administration coming in in January. And I know that the incoming Biden administration takes human rights very seriously.

CO: But we do know that The New York Times reporting that there are millions of dollars being spent on the lobbying of Congress in order to alter these bills.

JW: Yes. And that means that there's a lot of money at stake for their profits. But, you know, it's hypocritical for them to, on the one hand, proclaim publicly that they are against the use of forced labour and then to profit from it and go behind the scenes to try to change this legislation.

CO: Why would Coca-Cola be interested in changing it? I mean, some of the others are manufacturers and in the textile industry. And so Nike is making things. Some of the others, Adidas, Calvin Klein, Campbell Soup Company, I understand, have tomatoes there. What's Coca Cola's interest?

JW: Well, there are also many commodities grown and produced in Xinjiang including sugar, so that that may have something to do with their concerns.

CO: So Coca-Cola is procuring sugar from Xinjiang?

JW: Well, that seems to be what but they're concerned about. You know, they can show that they're not. And then this legislation would not be a problem for them.

CO: They say they have shown that they're not. Coca-Cola told in the statements to The New York Times that they strictly prohibit the use of forced labour, that they have independent third party audits to make sure that they have no forced labour in their supply chains. Nike says its suppliers are not using material from the Xinjiang region or from people from Xinjiang. And Apple says it has conducted an investigation of its suppliers in China and says they found no evidence of forced labour. So what do you make of that?

JW: Well, the Forced Labour Prevention Act would create a rebuttable presumption that any products coming from that region were produced with forced labour. So if, in fact, they're auditing firms and the auditing processes have shown that it's not, then they would have nothing to fear from this legislation.

CO: But is it the case that it's just very difficult to prove -- I mean, these audits I know numbers of places are saying that they are using third party audits. Is it just too difficult to prove that there's no forced labour in your supply chain?

JW: It depends whether it's coming from Xinjiang or not or whether it's coming from Xinjiang via a third party country. But again, these are all things that they should be checking for in the first place. And, you know, if they aren't able to make those assertions and prove that affirmatively, then my legislation would just require that they make disclosures as a part of their SPC filing so that investors and consumers are aware that the goods that they purchase from these companies could be tainted by force or slave labour.

CO: And how would consumers know that? What are you saying that you want to see happen?

JW: Well, right now they don't know. But if it were something that were a part of their SPC, Securities and Exchange Commission filing, then it would be public knowledge. That's why my legislation would impose a requirement that they disclose it, because I believe this is something that consumers and investors have a right to know.

CO: Just so I'm clear, if they can't prove that there's no forced labour, then it would be made public that they have not been able to prove that they don't have forced labour?

JW: Just that certain products that they are selling may be produced or have a component, that it was produced through the use of forced labour.

CO: And how would the company be able to get that off of its record?

JW: By auditing their supply chain better and determining that they weren't using products from Xinjiang.

CO: They are the self-police in that regard, then?

JW: Well, it would be an annual disclosure as administered by the Securities and Exchange Commission.

CO: And so who would be doing the audits?

JW: Well, that would be up to the companies. But they would have to meet certain auditing standards.

CO: There's a Supreme Court case right now in Washington, chocolate companies are claiming that it's not their fault if their suppliers are using child labour -- it is a story we just did last night. Is it possible that companies just have no way of knowing what's in their supply chains?

JW: I think that companies have an affirmative duty to ensure that their supply chains are not tainted with slave labour. There are companies that ensure that they're not and that use fair practises and fair trade. And if these companies don't want to do that, they should just have to disclose it.

CO: All right. We'll leave it there. Ms. Wexton thank you.

JW: Thank you so much.

TS: Jennifer Wexton is a Democratic congresswoman from Virginia. We reached her just outside Washington, D.C.. For more on this story, visit our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Robyn Gilliand

TS: Ordinarily, if someone had been through what Robyn Gilliand just went through, they might take a day off. But the morning after Ms. Gilliand and her husband Cody watched their mobile home go up in flames, she was back on the job, driving her school bus route in the Medicine Hat area, wearing the only outfit she had left. She spoke about the ordeal this morning.

ROBYN GILLIAND: Both my husband and I -- we were actually watching a movie. And my husband had kind of smelled something that, you know, it smelted hot and melty-burny smell. So he got up and investigated. He couldn't quite see anything. And then so he came back to our bedroom. And then then I said, okay, now I smell it. So we investigated further. And as we did so, we then noticed quite a bit of black smoke coming into the trailer. So he said, grab the dogs, we got to get out. So whatever we had in our arms and on our backs, that's what we got out with.

DAVID GRAY: In your jammies, if I can ask?

ROBYN GILLIAND: That is correct. Yep, just in our pajamas. So, yeah.

DAVID GRAY: How bad was the damage when it was all done?

ROBYN GILLIAND: For us, I think we're trying to see if we can salvage maybe a few clothes. We're trying to see if we can illuminate the smoke or odour, trying different remedies and recipes.

DAVID GRAY: My goodness. Where did you stay that night?

ROBYN GILLIAND: We were invited to go back to our friends. They said, come home to our ranch and it's right on my bus route.

DAVID GRAY: Now that's where I'm going to stop you Robyn. Explain this to me, so you're thrown out of your place in the middle of the night, you're in your pyjamas and the next morning you drive your bus route, you go to work in your pyjamas?

ROBYN GILLIAND: Yeah. Yeah. Well I mean I'm in my pyjamas anyways and it was one of those things that you know you've got to what you have got to do. When you live out in the country, there's things that are still relying on you and you have a responsibility. So the kids still needed to get to school. And plus, that's a whole another family for me, you know, to see those little faces and even my bus kids, I still owe them, you know, the privilege of still getting to school safely. And it was kind of a bit of a distraction for me that I could still continue to do that for them.

DAVID GRAY: You weren't in an onesie -- what, you got flannels, just so I can be clear?

ROBYN GILLIAND: They were flannel pyjamas. Yeah. Yeah. So it was it was still within dress code. I was pretty appropriate.

TS: Robyn Gilliand's mobile home was destroyed by a fire last week, but she continues to drive her daily school bus route. She spoke with CBC's David Gray this morning on the Calgary Eyeopener.

[Music]

CO: And if she could have been there with you today -- I mean, you tweeted about what this meant to her -- how do you think she would have reacted today?

CS: I mean, this was her life's mission at the end of her life. She tried so hard to hold on to the see the decision. And I thought that we would lose. And that would be the last thing that she saw. But instead, we won. And she won. I wish she had lived to see that. And it would have meant so much to her. And not just for her, not just for her own case, but really for what it means for the community, because she really took on the mantle of the fight for the entire community. And that is a hard thing to do. It means reliving your trauma. It means putting yourself out there when you're exhausted. It means getting hate mail. It means just taking on all of the reactions of others, good or bad. And that is exhausting, especially when she was struggling because she had lost her job and all the consequences that flow from that. So, you know, I wish she had lived to see the incredible work and culmination of her work. And I know she is probably looking down on us and smiling. And I hope she knows how much she changed the world.

CO: CBT, cognitive behavioural therapy, which is what you are working with. And can you give specific examples about what happens in the video game that actually does that? That actually helps with just knowing how to cope and to deep breathe and to get control of yourself? Can you give us a scene that might might speak to that?

CS: There are certain avatars that you have to interact with in order to pass that level. And there's like one little character that goes over, okay, so this is how you practise deep breathing. Let's take a deep breath and the youth actually take a deep breath and continue on throughout the game. And there's these cues that also remind them through each level that they're playing to kind of use the tools that they've gained. And as they collect the gems in order to restore the power to the universe, that's kind of how they go to start to finish.

CO: Sounds like fun.

CS: And, you know, you get to learn new skills, you get to be a part of research that hopefully, you know, brings about more e-mental health tools in the future and makes mental health easily accessible for young people across Nunavut.

CO: You grew up in Pond Inlet. So was this something that you would have liked to have had that would have been helpful to you?

CS: Yeah, definitely. I think when I was growing up, mental health -- it was highly stigmatised still. And so now that, you know, we're learning more information and we have easier access to information and, you know, we're trying to fill the gaps in the digital divide in Nunavut. I think like programmes like this and projects like this are really needed. And I think it's a great step in the right direction.

CO: Well done, Chelsea. Thank you.

CS: Awesome. Thank you.

TS: Chelsea Singoorie is the community coordinator on the I-SPARX team, modifying a video game for young people in Nunavut. We reached her in Ottawa. And to see what the game looks like, visit our website, cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Ruth Shrader

TS: The iconic Hudson's Bay department store in downtown Winnipeg is officially closed. All week, people across the city have been sharing their memories of the historic building. Ruth Shrader is particularly sad to see the store shut down since that's where she met her husband in the early 1940s. The 99 year old spoke to CBC Manitoba about that chance encounter in the lobby of the building.

RUTH SHRADER: Yeah, I always tell my children when they ask me that, I say, well, we met in the revolving door and they look at me with raised eyebrows and I say, yes. My sister and I were going into the Bay and he was coming out in a revolving door. So she waved to him because she knew him from before and she waved him to stop and he came back in and then we were introduced.

RILEY LAYCHUK: Do you remember, like all those years ago, what were you doing in the Bay that day?

RUTH SHRADER: Well, we were doing shopping. And more window shopping than buying because we didn't have that much money. But we went to we used to go and look around and see if we could find some bargains.

RILEY LAYCHUK: Do you remember what year was it that you met him at the Bay?

RUTH SHRADER: Oh, I could have been about 1940 or 1942, I'd say.

RILEY LAYCHUK: What was the store like back then?

RUTH SHRADER: Well, it was nice. It was a nice big store. And at Christmas time, a week before Christmas, they would open the doors about a half an hour before the usual hour. And you could go inside and listen to their choir. They had a choir that stood on the steps that led to the loft there. There was sort of a loft in there. And then we used to go and stand there and listen to it. And that was nice. We enjoyed that.

RILEY LAYCHUK: I guess when you hear about this iconic downtown location closing, what went through your mind when you heard that the Bay was closing this one?

RUTH SHRADER: I was sort of sad because it's been there for so many years and it had been sort of an historic building and I felt sort of bad.

TS: Ruth Shrader speaking with the CBC's Riley Laychuk about meeting her husband in the lobby of downtown Winnipeg's iconic Hudson's Bay store in the 1940s. On Monday, the company announced the building is officially closed.

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December 2, 2020 Episode Transcript

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