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The Current Transcript for November 26, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

I was going to steal a sub or something just to survive, and I hate to admit that, but it's the truth that I've never been a thief, but I've always worked hard.

MATT GALLOWAY: For those living on the margins in this country, this pandemic has made a precarious existence worse. Food insecurity has grown and it's a problem addressed almost exclusively by charities. In 30 minutes, why governments are being called upon to ensure that people, especially now, are able to get food on the table. And later, a different form of poverty, if at all, isn't fanatical or extreme. It's simply the right thing to do. It's called period poverty. In an hour, how Scotland became the first country to make menstrual products available to all for free and why other countries are watching. Plus, one of the greatest bits of sports commentary ever about perhaps the best soccer goal ever. We start, though, with the race for a coveted vaccine and accusations that Canada is at the back of the line. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

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Is Canada at the back of the line for COVID-19 vaccines?

Guests: Amir Attaran, Alan Bernstein

MG: Since the summer, Canada has signed a series of agreements with pharmaceutical companies in an effort to secure the one thing they hope will stop Covid-19; a safe and effective vaccine. In recent weeks, there has been a spate of good news from clinical trials. But even if they work, there is another challenge.

SOUNDCLIP

Mr Speaker, so far, we know that Canada will receive its vaccine only after the United States, the United Kingdom, Germany, France, India, Indonesia. The list goes on. The combined population of countries ahead of Canada in the distribution line is almost 2.5 Billion people, Mr Speaker, to the nearest hundred million, can the Prime Minister tell the House how many vaccines will be delivered to the rest of the world before a delivery is made to Canada?

MG: That is Opposition Leader Erin O'Toole. In Question Period yesterday, Amir Attaran has been warning about the looming problem of getting vaccines to Canadians for months now. He's a professor of law and public health at the University of Ottawa. Amir, good morning.

AMIR ATTARAN: Good morning, Matt.

MG: When did you start to get concerned about how Canada was approaching the challenge of securing Covid-19 vaccines?

AMIR ATTARAN: In August this year, it was entirely clear to me that we were not going to be amongst the first places in the world to get a vaccine, although it's bloody clear we need it. And that was going to be I felt a near certainty unless some very quick decisions were made. So I wrote an article for MacLaine's in August warning that we were on the cusp of several large and I fear, irrevocable failures. I then got in touch with the prime minister's office and tried to tell them this really was something that needed their urgent attention in August if we were going to avoid disappointment at the end of the year. And now here we are at the end of the year.

MG: And so specifically, I mean, what are the problems in your mind with the government's approach?

AMIR ATTARAN: You can only get a vaccine one of two ways in Canada. You can either buy it from somebody already made and import it. So they deliver because they've made it. You've got a contract and that's a simple delivery model. Or you can make it in Canada. And to do that, you need a company who has invented the vaccine to be willing to share with you their patent rights and their know how, their cookbook for making the vaccine and a little bit of a seed stock from which you grow the vaccine. It's like making sour dough. If you get the seed stock, you can make more and more sour dough. So, too, with some vaccines. I summarised in August that Canada was late compared to most countries in signing deals for vaccine delivery, and that because of that, other countries would likely be in the queue to receive deliveries ahead of us. So what I recommended was that we take very seriously the alternative of manufacturing our own under licence. And the amount of work that has been done on that to date is zero.

MG: The prime minister, the prime minister has said, I mean, this is the first part of this that the government has secured deals with, with a variety of vaccine makers. So many, in fact, that there are international organisations that say that this country is hoarding vaccines. Are they wrong?

AMIR ATTARAN: It's hard to know because the government has never been forthright about how many of these deals are firm purchases, contracts with cash on the table, versus how many are simply options to buy. So when you read the prime minister's press releases, they're very, very oddly worded, as if a lawyer has written them to say that, for instance, we will have a certain vaccine receive up to 70 million doses. What does that wording mean? We're going to receive up to 70 million doses. It doesn't mean that we'll get 70 million. It means that we could get 20 million, five million or even zero because of this odd wording throughout, the government's announcements have not receiving a concrete number, but some figure up to it, up to a number, we don't really know how much we're going to get.

MATT GALLOWAY: The other part of this is, as you say, the country could have licenced vaccines. The prime minister has said that we lack the domestic capacity to make vaccines. Where would those vaccines actually be made?

AMIR ATTARAN: That makes me very sad, mad because the prime minister simply isn't telling the truth and he knows it. In the summer, the prime minister visited a lab at the National Research Council in Montreal where vaccines are made. He personally was in that laboratory and that laboratory has successfully made vaccines in the past. So it is a source of vaccine production if we want the national.

MG: Let me just say that the National Research Council of Canada sent us a statement and it said these are their words. They do not currently have an approved facility to manufacture vaccines for use in humans. A new bio manufacturing facility is scheduled to be completed by July of twenty twenty one. Help me understand that the National Research Council says that it doesn't have the facility that you say that they do.

AMIR ATTARAN: I'm going to read something to you from the National Research Council Web site. So this is them to quote, As part of its development capacity, the facility is equipped with pilot scale bioreactors, 200 leaders and 500 leaders, which will be operationally available to produce up to 100,000 doses of vaccine per month once one is available. In that statement, they're saying they can produce 100,000 doses a month once the vaccine is available. Well, the vaccine is available.

MG: So why would they say to us yesterday that they don't have a facility available to manufacture vaccines for use in humans.

AMIR ATTARAN: Because their story has changed constantly. And back in August, I did have discussions with the NRC. This was around the time of writing the MacLaine's piece, and they were eager to begin production, something no longer is as clear, although the passage I read to you from their website is up there right now, that it says they can produce 100,000 doses of vaccine. You know, once that vaccine is available, it doesn't square that. And what I do know is that the NRC lab in 2019, a year before Covid hit, actually did produce a vaccine and commercialise it using exactly the same technology as the AstraZeneca vaccine for Covid. That particular vaccine was made for rabies, not Covid, but the core technology is identical. And in nineteen twenty nineteen when the lab did this. It was a Canadian first, it was a world first, it was the very first time a lab anywhere had made and commercially deployed a vaccine using this technology. In twenty nineteen, we were the world leaders. Now, as of about the last day, we're getting the story that actually they can't do. It is extremely puzzling.

MG: How much of this has to do with with the terms of the lack of capacity. And you point to other countries, whether it's the United States or Australia, the U.K., India, where they are already manufacturing vaccines and waiting essentially for a green light for regulatory approval. How much of this has to do with years of neglect? The Trudeau government has said that. I mean, and they point to AstraZeneca and Bristol-Myers closing manufacturing operations in this country. In 2007 and 2010, Johnson Johnson and Merck closed facilities. In 2011, Teva closed one of its Canadian manufacturing operations. How much of this has to do with with neglect and that's why those companies don't have those manufacturing facilities here?

AMIR ATTARAN: Less than meets the eye, because many of those facilities that were closed were facilities which performed old style vaccine production. The Covid vaccines, the three we have so far from Pfizer, Moderna and AstraZeneca, each of the three is an unconventional technology, and so, for instance, we actually have a vaccine plant and a very good one. Right now in Quebec City, it's owned by GlaxoSmithKline, but it's dedicated to making influenza vaccine and it doesn't have the ability to make a covid vaccine, you can close plants and that's what's happened as you've accurately summarised, Matt. But it would not make an appreciable difference to where we are today if those plants that were closed, like the GSK, one in Quebec City, simply use different technology that's not serviceable for this pandemic.

MG: Just finally, I mean, people are trying to figure out when in the midst of all of this, when we will actually get a vaccine. Dominic LeBLanc, along with the Minister for Intergovernmental Affairs, yesterday said that Canada will start receiving coronavirus vaccine doses in January. That's around a month behind the United States and the UK is that close to the front of the line if you take a look at the overall global scale?

AMIR ATTARAN: Well, Germany will begin vaccinating people in December. Same with the U.K. Same with the United States, Australia hopes to be there in December as well. Japan hopes to be Spain will get there in January. That is sort of the cutting edge whether we get any in January. That is a statement that the government has never made until yesterday. And, of course, it lacks details. So I'm placing a large grain of salt there. That said, quite recently, bureaucrats from Health Canada told Parliament something different than what you just told me. They said that Canada could expect six million doses by the end of March. There is a world of difference between saying six million doses in March. That's a concrete number and delivery time, versus a political person, a political representative of the government saying we'll get some in January.

MG: Amir Attaran, good to speak with you about this. Thank you.

AMIR ATTARAN: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Amir Attaran is a professor of law and public health at the University of Ottawa. Alan Bernstein has been listening in. He's president and CEO of the global research organisation CFR, who was the founding president of the Canadian Institutes of Health Research and a member of Canada's covid-19 Vaccine Task Force, Alan Bernstein. Good morning to you.

ALAN BERNSTEIN: Morning, Matt.

MG: How do you respond to the concerns that Amir Attaran raises, in particular the idea that this country has not licenced vaccines that are being made elsewhere and that's going to put us in some ways at the back of the line?

ALAN BERNSTEIN: Well, I think we need to keep a couple of things in mind, Matt. The first is we should be celebrating the fact that we now have two outstanding vaccine results in the two RNA vaccines, and we have a confusing but at least positive results as of this earlier this week from AstraZeneca in Oxford. So I think that's the first great news. I think the second is no vaccine has yet been approved by Health Canada. So there's no way we're going to get any vaccine distributed in this country until Health Canada looks at the data very closely and then then approves it. In fact, no vaccine has been approved anywhere yet. So I think that's the second thing. I think the third thing is going back to Prime Minister Trudeau's comments from a few days ago now. Yes, we have no or very limited vaccine manufacturing capacity in this country.

MG: And so does that put us at the back of the line?

ALAN BERNSTEIN: Well, I obviously would be much better if we did. But again, we need to remember a few things. First of all, you know, they are in a vaccine. Let's take that as an example. The Moderna vaccine, that vaccine was paid for by the US government and the clinical trials which were done at the NIH were also paid for by the U.S. government. So, not surprisingly, Americans expect and we'll get that vaccine first. We would expect the converse as well. We we would be first in line if we paid for a vaccine and then we were there first. The second point is those RNA vaccines are made in a whole new technology. These are the first RNA vaccines on the planet. And so the technology for making them is completely different than, for example, the AstraZeneca vaccine that Dr. Attaran was referring to. And so the NRC facility does not have the technology to make RNA vaccines. And it's a very specialised, like I said, brand new technology. And so we I think the the solution to this in the long run is looking forward, how do we fix it so this doesn't happen again.

MG: Help me understand this issue around manufacturing capacity, because the prime minister has said we don't have the manufacturing capacity. You heard Amir Attaran say that we do. The federal conservatives are also saying that the prime minister is wrong. Take a listen to the conservative health critic, Michelle Rempel Garner.

SOUNDCLIP

For the prime minister to walk out of the cottage today, while he's working from home. While many Canadians can't and say that there's no production capacity is is factually incorrect and is a lie. There is some. So the question is, after putting all of this money into it that his government signed off on, why is he saying that this isn't even a possibility for us, that we shouldn't even be doing a real time on demand manufacturing for super high risk populations like health care workers or people in long term care facilities?

MG: Do we have the ability to make Covid vaccines for these high risk groups or don't we?

ALAN BERNSTEIN: Well, I think you'd have to ask the NRC that question. The National Research Council, they're the ones that have the largest facilities.

MG: And we did. And they said that their facility-- that they don't have this, but the government-

ALAN BERNSTEIN: They certainly did not have the capacity to make these Arani vaccines, the vaccines that are giving 95 percent efficiency in the Phase three trials. I think you AstraZeneca result for. Earlier this week suffusing, we can go into it if you'd like. I think they're not ready for prime time, nor have any of them been approved, as I said earlier. So I think the NRC has to get incorporate that technology if we're going to start making RNAvaccines. So the answer is not yes or no. It depends on which technology you're talking about. It's much more subtle than, you know, the closer you just gave me.

MG: But you mentioned what's happening in the United States and that the U.S. government funded one vaccine and that that perhaps would lead to the expectation that those citizens would get the vaccine first. There are other nations that are in the midst of production of vaccines and as I said earlier, waiting for that regulatory green light. Why is it that Canada would be so far behind in the production of vaccines?

ALAN BERNSTEIN: Well, it's not clear that we are that far behind. I think the reality is we have contracts in place with all three companies. It's one thing as a member of the vaccine task force, we worked very hard to to do due diligence on those vaccines and made recommendations which were accepted by the government. And negotiations started immediately. And we have firm contracts now in place to buy a certain number and then options to buy up to another higher number, depending on the scenarios going forward. So it's all dependent now on whether Health Canada approves any of those vaccines. And then we'll see. There's a lot of unknowns here, Matt, in terms of what order we'll all get these vaccines, in terms of which country. And I think it's fair to say we need to let the dust settle and see when we start getting. I think the fact is the contracts call for us to get the vaccines as early as any other country other than the countries where those vaccines were first developed and manufactured, which is, I think, to be expected. So Germany, for example, biotech, the company works with Pfizer is based in Germany. So, again, the Germans naturally expect that they'll go for a shot of those vaccines. So I think, again, the really good news is we have some vaccines that we can look forward to. The sooner we get them, obviously, the better. And there's both manufacturing issues, but we haven't been talking about distribution issues. But those are also major issues that need to be sorted out with the provinces. So I think we need to start looking forward, not backward, in terms of what we did or did not do 25 years ago when we hollowed out our life science industry here and how do we fix it for the next time. I think it's critical that Canada immediately start building a national vaccine manufacturing facility that is capable of making any of the technologies that we have in place now and likely to have in the future so that this doesn't happen again. I think that's a major lesson from this pandemic.

MG: And just finally, Dominic LeBlanc said yesterday that he expected first doses to be shipped to this country in January and raised some questions as to whether that's reasonable or not. Do you think that is a reasonable timeline?

ALAN BERNSTEIN: I don't know what the reasonable timeline is. I think the contracts call for sort of a January to March window. We never specified, as far as I know, an exact date because there are too many unknowns when those contracts were signed back in the summer and early fall. Someone obviously one unknown is whether the trials would work. Well, we know as of two or three weeks ago now, the trials look very promising, very exciting. And we don't know what Health Canada will approve them. So we couldn't specify a date in the contract. And that's obviously understandable so that all of it was in the window of January to March, Q1 and Q2. That's the situation in every country on the planet is in exactly the same situation, Matt.

MG: Alan Bernstein, good to speak with you. Thank you.

ALAN BERNSTEIN: Thank you.

MG: Alan Bernstein is the president and CEO of the global research organisation Cifas, also a member of Canada's Covid-19 Vaccine Task Force. We should mention that we did request an interview with Anita Anand the Public Services and Procurement Minister, as well as Navdeep Bains the Innovation, Science and Industry Minister. Neither were available to speak with us this morning. Wanted to tell you about a story that we will bring you in the coming days. On The Current yesterday, I sat down with former Conservative MP and Minister of Transport Lisa Raitt. She spoke openly about the difficulties of being a caregiver to her husband, Bruce. Bruce has young onset Alzheimer's.

SOUNDCLIP

It's insidious how that creeps up on you. All of a sudden, you wake up one day and you realise I'm not a wife anymore. And want to know when? When he called me mom. He calls me mommy. When he's going through the house, he'll say Mommy, Mommy. And it's not because he thinks I'm his mother. Hopefully I don't look that old, but it's because I fulfil that role of dressing him, of shaving him off, cleaning him in his mind. He's a little boy.

My conversation with former Conservative MP and minister of Transport. Lisa Raitt coming up next week on The Current. The CBC News is next. And then the growing problem of food insecurity in Canada and why this country relies so heavily on charities to fill the gaps. I Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. We're back in six minutes. Stay with us.

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Charities shouldering burden as food insecurity grows

Guests: Valerie Tarasuk, Paul Taylor

MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, Scotland's landmark new law, ensuring access to sanitary products for everyone who needs them. But first, the struggles to feed those in need.

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MG: More than four million Canadians are worried about running out of food, missing their next meal or going hungry.

SOUNDCLIP

VOIC E1: Hi, my name's Johnny. I, I've got some health issues. I got a lung problem. I've been on assistance for a while and I heard about this place. I started coming here. That's great service, great people and I don't have to deal with. And that's just being totally honest. I was going to have to go steal a sub over something just to survive. And I hate to admit that, but it's the truth. And I've never been a thief, but I've always worked hard. But I've got this lung thing and I can't do it anymore.

VOICE 2: Yes, I do go to a food fund, a food bank. I get like canned foods, cereal, and sometimes a snack pack for my kids. I have a fiancee, but I call my husband because we've been together for 13 years. He works at Wal-Mart. He does the shopping carts and I hope the groceries won't be as expensive as they are.

MG: Those are some of the clients who have turned to Vancouver area food banks for help. Across this country, food banks and other organisations helping to feed people are stretched thin by the growing need. In parts of British Columbia, several food banks say demand has gone up more than 100 percent. And according to Statistics Canada, people who are laid off work because of covid were three times more likely to be food insecure than others. In response to the growing need this April and again in August, the federal government gave 100 million dollars to a small group of national organisations that help provide food to the food insecure. But there are calls for a different long term approach, one that does not rely on charity. Valerie Tarasuk is a professor of nutritional sciences at the University of Toronto and founder of Proof the Food Insecurity Policy Research Team. Valerie, good morning.

VALERIE TARASUK: Good morning.

MG: When we talk about being food insecure, what does that actually mean for someone day to day?

VALERIE TARASUK: Well, it means that they have trouble affording enough food. So it's about not being able to not having enough money to buy the food that they need for themselves and their family. And as you said at the beginning, it can range from worry to people actually going whole days without eating. Obviously, the most concerning element of this is that latter conditions of your food insecurity.

MG: What do we know about and I gave kind of the highlights in the introduction, but what do we know about what's happened over the course of this pandemic when it comes to food insecurity?

VALERIE TARASUK: Well, things have gotten worse. There's been one survey done by Statistics Canada since the pandemic started, and it showed an absolutely startling rise in the rate of food insecurity in Canada. And that survey was picking up mostly to the severe of the moderate, the more the more concrete compromises in food intake. So this is very concerning.

MG: What is the network of organisations look like that helps feed those in need, feed those who would, for all those reasons that you've illustrated, had difficulty getting food on the table?

VALERIE TARASUK: Well, first of all, the network, as you call it, is a fraction the size of the problem. Before the pandemic, what we knew was that roughly one in four or one in five of the people who were food insecure in Canada would ever show up in a terrible food system. So there's a gigantic disconnect in terms of the the services such as they are and the problem, the services. What is that we're talking about ad hoc voluntary operations, that the funding that has come from the federal government since the pandemic is absolutely unprecedented. These are seat of the pants operations, for the most part, collecting charitable donations and redistributing them primarily through volunteer labour. So there's nothing about the system that suggests it's seamless or it's, you know, it's not a service in the way that you think of a hospital or a school or a library. This is just, you know, seed of the pants community operation.

MG: In that seed of the pants operations, how good of a job do they do at getting food to those who need it?

VALERIE TARASUK: Well, they do the best job they can. But let's be clear. First of all, they see a fraction of the people with the problem. And we have absolutely no evidence to suggest that this food that they provide is enough for even to meet those people food needs. I mean, one of the things that makes this problem so well, so complicated, but also so important is that by the time somebody is struggling to feed themselves and their family because they don't have enough money, they're not just missing food. They think of yourself or other people in your networks. Think of what would have to happen to get to the point where you didn't have enough money for food. Those people are also struggling to pay their rent or mortgage, if they have prescription medications, as many of them do, they're probably not filling them because they can't afford to. I mean, there are many, many layers of financial compromise happening in these households, so. OK, so we've got, you know, community operations that reach out along the food axis and say, you know, we can provide some food relief here. It's a small amount of food at best that anybody will get from these systems. And it's unlikely to even fill the food need in that household, let alone all these other problems.

MG: This is the time of the year when you will see if you're in the grocery store or across the country, holiday food drives. Who drives that raise, you know, a lot of food and will collect a lot of money for those food charities. What's the concern that some people have around the support of food banks and other food charities in terms of addressing what you're talking about and the reality of being food insecure in a country as wealthy as ours?

VALERIE TARASUK: Well, the concern is that we're not addressing the problem. And I mean, Canada is unique in its dependence on community based voluntary charity to manage this problem. And as I said earlier, there's an abundance of evidence to suggest that that's not an effective response. So the concern with things like these food drives that are rolling out now is that they're feel good. We will all be celebrating the generosity of Canadians. But what's very concerning is that our government seems to think, our federal government in particular, seems to think that that's all they need to do. And so we don't we're not getting any meaningful response to the underlying economic issues that drive this problem. And as I said, the food charity element of it is problematic because it's not fixing the problem.

MG: And the problem is not food. People say the problem is poverty.

VALERIE TARASUK: That's right. And so to you know, one of the things that is really concerning about the food drives is that they don't tend to I mean, they're never going to address the poverty problem. Right. I mean, you know, we asked Canadians to donate to a food bank and they'll do that, I think, motivated by the desire not to see people in their midst go hungry, which is a, you know, a great thing. But but there's nothing in this picture that suggests that action will even prevent people from going hungry.

MG: Paul Taylor is executive director of Food Share Toronto and the former executive director of the Gordon Neighbourhood House in Vancouver. And I want to bring him into this conversation. Paul, good morning to you.

PAUL TAYLOR: Hi, good morning, Matt.

MG: Just briefly, what does your organisation do to help people who are food insecure?

So, you know, typically what we do is we work with local communities across the city to develop community led food infrastructure so urban farms and underutilised public land market gardens, subsidised community produce markets, those sorts of things. So really, in essence, investing in communities that have been chronically and systematically under invested in. But we are absolutely clear that this work and the infrastructure that gets developed will not solve poverty or food insecurity. Because as Valerie said, these are issues largely about income.

MG: This is work that you do that that in some ways is informed by your own personal experience, right?

PAUL TAYLOR: It is indeed. You know, I know the wonderful power of food. You know, I grew up materially poor in a lone parent household. And when we had food, it was joyous. It was magical. You know, we were singing at times and when we didn't have food, it was quite the opposite. So I know that you know what's possible. And I've committed as many of my energies as possible to make sure that everybody in this country can have access to food and can engage in that joy that comes from sitting down with your loved ones.

MG: Food Share does a really important work and addresses, as you said, a need. But do you worry, given what Valerie is talking about, that what you're doing is essentially a Band-Aid that might address an immediate need but doesn't contribute to addressing the larger problem?

PAUL TAYLOR: So that absolutely always and every day, you know, we're unlike a food bank in a lot of ways, and I could go into that. But I think the key is that it takes organisations like Food Share and others to say pretty boldly and adamantly that we are not solving poverty or food insecurity. We have to disrupt that narrative that allows people to, you know, think that making a contribution to a food bank or a food pantry is actually solving this issue. So a large part of our work is really focussed on advocating for the government to take these issues seriously through effective public policy. You know, we need income security policies like liveable wages. These are the types of things that are going to have much more of an impact than, you know, things like handing out three legged carrots or corporate waste or other people's leftover.

MG: But it's a powerful narrative in part because so many people are involved in helping to contribute to those organisations, Second Harvest is one of those organisations, one of the 60000 charities in Canada that helped feed those in need. Lori Nikkel is the CEO. Take a listen to how she sees their role.

SOUNDCLIP

We collect food that was going to go to waste and go to landfill, and we make sure that that food doesn't. And we get it to charities and non-profits across Canada and we focus on perishable food. So in Alberta, actually, this is a real time, real time example. In Alberta right now, there are two tractor trailer loads of eggs that are really close to code. And so we have regional staff in Alberta that will work with the likely Calgary food bank. There are a number of other charities there that can accept really large amounts of food. But she's also working with smaller charities. So an after school programme that can access food through our online system and so they can access food directly from Starbucks, for example, who may have four or five sandwiches. And that's appropriate for that community centre. Food and security needs intervention, needs policy and needs legislation. That is the only way we're going to fix this problem in the country. But in the meantime, we're not going to take away a human immediate need. We're going to make sure that people can access the food they need to be healthy.

MG: Valerie, don't we need those charities to keep doing what they're doing until something else larger is in place?

VALERIE TARASUK: I think that's we have to stop saying that, you know, this idea that we're all working in the meantime, when in the meantime ever going to change. Right. I mean, next year we will celebrate the fortieth anniversary of food banks in Canada. I mean, we have living proof in Canada that this response doesn't take us anywhere. You know, yes, it's fascinating to think about the logistics of getting those two tractor loads of eggs moved or the sandwiches. You know, you can visit yourself with that. And I think we've got a lot of people in Canada that are doing that. And great. You know, the eggs are going to get used and I'm sure somebody is going to be happy to eat one of them. But the meantime is is such it's been such a toxic thinking in Canada because nobody's doing anything else, you know. I mean, when you think about who's in trouble right now, who are they? You know, are people that have lost their jobs through no fault of their own. And why is our best idea to try to get some old eggs to them? You know, what about the Canada emergency response benefit, the newest wage subsidies, whatever? What about, you know, think about the popery of the income support that we've got on the table right now. Like, who's doing the maths here to say that, you know, we're dealing with the underlying issues. We're not. So this idea that we have to do this in the meantime, because, you know, it's important to get food to people, that we've got to stop kidding ourselves, that that's an appropriate or effective response.

MG: We spoke with Marie-Claude Bibeau, who is the federal minister of agriculture and agrifood. Here's what she had to say about the government's food policy.

SOUNDCLIP

During the Covid, as the federal government, we have put in place some emergency measures to support food banks and people who need food assistance. But normally what we do is to improve our Social Security safety net like we have done with the Canada Child Benefit. So now it's wage base. So the family really need the federal assistance will get a higher support in terms of Canada child benefit, while the other one would not get anything. And just with this measures, we were able to bring 350000 kids out of poverty. We still need food banks and we have to do better. This is why we are trying also to to find other ways to strengthen our food system. We are working on food waste, for example, because we know half of the food we produce in Canada is wasted. We know we could make more food available to people. Farmers can get better revenue. They would have good impacts for the environment as well. So the vision of the food policy for Canada is to provide access to all Canadians to good food that is healthy, nutritious and culturally diversified as well.

MG: Paul Taylor, what's the answer here? If if donating to organisations does not solve what's at the root cause of this, which people believe is poverty, what's what's the step forward?

PAUL TAYLOR: I just before I do that, I just want to say one thing about the CCB that was mentioned, you know, by the minister poverties like a swimming pool and what this government has done. If you think of poverty like a swimming pool, they've made the least amount of investment possible to be able to just lift a number of people out of poverty who have children. But there's a significant number of people who are in severe poverty, who don't have children, who aren't being supported in the same kind of way. So I think what we've got to be doing is we've got to be advancing a conversation around human rights. We live in one of the richest countries in the world. We shouldn't have four million, over four million people navigating food insecurity on a regular basis. So I think we have to have conversations about things like introducing a perhaps a basic income. But we've got to also look at the other things that people are spending money on. Housing costs are through the roof. And we know that that rise started, you know, pretty much in 1993 when the government stopped building affordable housing. So we've got to get back to building affordable housing and really commit to guaranteeing public services again. And one of the richest countries in the world that include that ensure that everyone has access to housing, that ensure that everyone that everyone has access to food. Those are the types of things that I think we really need to be looking at and not charity and not these redistribution schemes around eggs and and treating low income people like walking compost bins is not the solution to this issue.

MG: Valerie. In just the remaining seconds that we have for people who are thinking of donating during those charity drives in this holiday season, what would you say to them?

VALERIE TARASUK: I'd say if you care about this issue, as you clearly do, if you're thinking about donating, communicate with your elected officials, you're your member of parliament. Make sure that they know that the kinds of strategies that we just heard this Minister Bibeau articulate are unacceptable, that I mean, the fact that having a child in a household is a risk factor for food insecurity in Canada speaks volumes about the ineffectiveness even of the Canada child benefit that she so proudly described. So I would say if you care about this issue, please, please, please communicate to the Canadian government that you are not OK with charity.

MG: It's great to speak with you both about this. This is such a timely and important conversation. Thank you.

PAUL TAYLOR: Thank you.

VALERIE TARASUK: Thanks for having us.

MG: Valerie Tarasuk is a professor of nutritional sciences at the University of Toronto. Paul Taylor is executive director of Food Share Toronto. This is The Current on CBC Radio one, my name is Matt Galloway. Yesterday on the programme, we featured a story about the need for a national grief strategy at a time when many people are dealing with the loss of loved ones during this pandemic.

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For me, it was a double edged sword. It was a tremendous privilege to be able to be with somebody at the end of their life and help them through that. But it's also, you know, a traumatic experience to watch your parents die like that.

MG: That was Nina Vaughan who lost her dad and her aunt this year to covid-19 her story and others touched you, and so much so that you wrote heartfelt letters to us. And so to go through some of them, I'm joined by our senior producer, Karin Marley. Karin, good morning.

KARIN MARLEY: Good morning. We'll start with Bruce Wood from Ottawa, who wrote in the whole discussion of Covid-19. There is much talk of first responders and frontline workers. Well, these people deserve to be celebrated for their actions. There's little discussion of the last responders. My partner is a funeral director and has to deal with people and their losses on a daily basis. They see people at their most vulnerable and help them through empathy, professionalism and a genuine desire to support and guide people through this difficult journey.

MG: This is a letter from Reverend Katherine Brittain, who lives in the Coalition Valley in British Columbia. I know that there is much disdain for organised religion in many areas. And yet I needed to email you to remind you that there is much that faith communities, all faith communities do that is overlooked until it's missing. This is the time of the year when many faith groups are trying our best to engage and embody the rituals of bringing light in dark times. Diwali has just happened. Hanukkah is approaching. Advent begins this Sunday. Advent is when my faith tradition lights candles in a circle one more each week. As we approach the longest night, I will stand in my empty sanctuary in front of those candles and light, the first one with only a camera to witness and say words about how we start with hope, because hope is the only candle with enough strength to stand by itself in the darkness and try not to cry while I do it, because somehow I need to bring that hope to my people, even through a computer screen.

KARIN MARLEY: Lydia Haslam says they say when you get a diagnosis of ALS, that's when you start to grieve. It's been a really hard five months since my husband was diagnosed. He's getting weaker day by day, and I cry each day. I think it would have been easier if he had gone suddenly. Many of our family and friends can't visit because of the stupid Covid it's so hard.

MG: This note comes from Cindy Traer, whose husband died just before the pandemic hit. We had a celebration of life for him, which we felt fortunate for. Then the isolation began. I had not hugged my sons for many months. Hugs we needed to comfort each other. But due to the fact that they were out in the working world, they did not want to harm me. Should they contract the virus then? Our city had zero cases for many months, so we relaxed a little and the hugs returned. The human touch was healing and then boom, our numbers skyrocketed. So we have returned to not touching. It's cold in Thunder Bay, so the visits with friends and family have stopped. I'm very lonely and sad and I miss my husband. Covid has made it a struggle to move forward. I crave my family and friends to be with me in my home. Phone calls and Zoom are just not the same.

KARIN MARLEY: Finally, Bonnie Kumer of Chelsie, Quebec writes, In October, I was involved in a community organised event to honour the people we love who have died during covid and the grief created by this current lack of social connexion during the pandemic. At sunset on Saturday, October 17th, we invited people to join us from where they were to each launch a mini boat they had made of natural materials onto a body of water that had meaning to them. And from wherever they were, we envisioned the constellation of mini boats built and launched by a community of mourners who honour their grief and their loved ones who have died for the launching. I helped my friend Jill, whose dad died this summer, and with her family, we built little boats made of woven daylilies garnished with wildflowers.

MG: Thanks to everybody who took the time to write. We heard from a lot of people who said that they were really moved by the fact that we dedicated some time to talk about something as important as grieve. So thank you very much. And thank you, Karin.

KARIN MARLEY: You're welcome.

MG: I should mention that there aren't a lot of in-person outlets for grief right now because of the pandemic. A good Canadian resource for people who are struggling is virtualhospice.ca. It's all one word, virtualhospice.ca. There are articles and resources there for anyone who might be needing some support right now. We love to hear what you think of the stories on this programme. You can get in touch about anything and we'll read all of your comments and some of them will make them their way onto the radio. You can email us thecurrent@cbc.ca. You can find us on Facebook or on Twitter. We are @TheCurrentCBC. After those letters make sense to play a song like this. It's really fitting. It was written by the great Bill Withers. This is the version that he performed along with John Legend and Stevie Wonder at his induction into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 2015.

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[Song: Lean on Me by John Legend and Stevie Wonder]

MG: John Legend, Bill Withers, Stevie Wonder; Lean on Me. Coming up after your regional update. Scotland is the first nation in the world to make menstrual products free to anyone who needs them. And there are people in this country hoping that Canada follows suit. That story in 90 seconds. I Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

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'Menstruation is just health': Scotland becomes the first country to make period products freely available; Canary Islands becoming route to Europe for large number of migrants and refugees

Guests: Monica Lennon, Jana Gridauskas, Inigo Vila

[clip] 1824619587814[/clip]

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway, you're listening to The Current.

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Results of the vote on motion 23328 in the name of Monica Lennon is, yes, 121. There were no votes against. There were no abstentions. The motion is agreed and the preferred products free provision in Scotland bill is passed.

MG: History making moment. Thanks to that bill that was passed this week, Scotland is the first nation in the world to make sanitary items like pads and tampons universally available for free to anyone who needs them. It was a long fight for a member of Scottish Parliament. Monica Lennon. Monica. Good morning.

MONICA LENNON: Good morning, Matt.

MG: In the video of the moment that we just heard. You have a big smile on your face. Tell me what it meant for you to see that bill passed.

MONICA LENNON: Oh, it just means the world to me that we now have legislation in Scotland that will ensure that anyone who needs them will be able to access period products for free. And the reaction, not just in terms of Scotland and the United Kingdom, but around the world has been really overwhelming. So it certainly appears to resonate with millions of people. And hopefully that will be a catalyst for further progress in other parts of the world, too.

MG: Scotland is being called the first nation to end what's known as period poverty, what is period poverty?

MONICA LENNON: Not being able to access parts, tampons or usable options when you need them. And when I first encountered the issue as a parliamentarian back in twenty sixteen, I realised that even in a country as rich and wealthy as Scotland, we had young girls who were missing out on education. They couldn't go to school because their parents couldn't afford their monthly supply, or sometimes they were just too embarrassed to talk about it within their family or with teachers. We also had single parents who were having to go to food banks in order to get essential items, including tampons and pads. And it was hard for low income families when there was more than one person in the household menstruating. So financial barriers, whatever your problem. But we also learnt about other issues around access for people with health conditions like endometriosis, women and girls affected by domestic violence and abuse within the home. And the list just went on. It was really a hidden problem. And yeah, there's been so many grassroots organisations involved in the campaign that it just became impossible for Parliament to ignore the issue.

MG: Why do you think, as you say, it was a hidden problem?

MONICA LENNON: I think because period's been a taboo issue forever. And, you know, I feel a little bit embarrassed that it looks like people are giving me all the credit for this. But women and girls have been fighting for equality, gender equality for forever and didn't use terms like period poverty and periods dignity. But women and girls have always known what it's like not to be able to manage their property safely and with dignity. And of course, this bill is for everyone who main streets, including trans and non binary people, too. So it's been a really inclusive movement in Scotland. And what I'm really pleased about is that the bill will require and law schools, colleges and universities to provide free products for students. And that's really important because no one should miss out on education because of their periods.

MG: How have you seen the stigma attached to your point around talking about periods change in the time that you've been fighting for this?

MONICA LENNON: Well, even in the last four years, since I was elected to parliament, I feel that we've made a lot of progress, not just in Scotland, in the UK, but it feels to me that people, especially younger people, are speaking about menstruation much more openly. We see that in social media and blogs, and we've certainly seen it at the Scottish Parliament where young people have really led the way. We've had rallies at parliament with lots of colourful banners and catchy slogans and people talking about menstrual stability in a really open way. And we've also seen a demand for mental wellbeing education so that people, especially younger people in Scotland, can talk about the difficulties they have with period pain and changes in their body. So it's about breaking down barriers so that you're a boy or girl, a man or a women, we can all talk about these issues without feeling embarrassed. And and I think the great thing is that lots of young people in school have said to me that no longer do they have to hide a tampon up their sleeve and sneak to the bathroom. They can go to the washroom and the products that are available because, of course, the campaign persuaded the government to put some of this in place already, but the law will just [unintelligible]. And we're all feeling very proud.

MG: As we heard at the beginning, the vote was unanimous, but there was a lot of debate in the parliament, but also on social media, particularly around the idea that this is a universal movement, that, you know, some people were saying, you know, there are some people who could afford to pay for these products. Why does it need to be universal? Why was it important to keep that universal clause in this bill?

MONICA LENNON: Well, that was so for me, that really was a [uninteligible] that wasn't willing to close the negotiations, I think really is because the public consultation on my bill overwhelmingly stated that people believe that dignity should be at the heart of any scheme. And that meant that people didn't want to be means tested. Whether they didn't want to have to talk about what their monthly period is like, how many products they need, what their financial situation was, and for for women and girls who've experienced domestic violence or health issues, that was really, really important. So also, that can be a lot of bureaucracy when you have to produce vouchers and I.D. and show their financial status. So we've wanted to keep this really simple, really straightforward. And no one expects you to take your own toilet roll when you go to school and you go to work. So why should you have to take tampons and pads everywhere you go? So I think we've really put that argument. That principle was accepted. But when I listen to you play the video of our presiding officer is no, that was a special moment because the parliament wasn't always agreed on this. It was a bit of a struggle. And it looked like earlier this year that the bill wouldn't pass. But, you know, the point I made is that during a pandemic, periods don't stop. Poverty is increasing. This is needed more than ever. And I'm really pleased that everyone in the Scottish Parliament pulled together regardless of their political party. And we've pushed us through unanimously.

MG: Just before I let you go, there are people in this country, in Canada and elsewhere who are watching what has unfolded in Scotland and have been calling for free period products in this country for many, many years. What can they take from from what you've accomplished here?

MONICA LENNON: I hope they realise that it's now possible this is what the future could look like and we can end periods stigma and achieve dignity for everyone, regardless of where they live in the world.

MG: Monica Lennon, it's great to talk to you. Thank you very much.

MONICA LENNON: Thank you so much.

MG: Monica Lennon is a member of the Scottish Parliament. With the Labour Party. Efforts to make menstrual products available to all are happening here in Canada as well. Jana Girdauskas is the founder of the Period Purse. It's an organisation that distributes free menstrual products to those in need and works to reduce the stigma surrounding periods. Good morning to you.

JANA GIRDAUSKAS: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Listening to the Scottish MP Monica Lennon. Do you think that there is the political will to get similar legislation passed here in Canada?

JANA GIRDAUSKAS: Yes, I hope so. The conversation has already started on that federal level. Back in 2019, the federal government did propose free menstrual products for all the federal regulated buildings. So that has started. In Scotland, it took four years. There has been a consultation. Just last week it was tabled back to the government. So it's a work in progress. And I hope that their progressive legislation has really signalled to the world that this universal access can be achieved.

MG: How have you seen the conversation around issues like menstrual equity or period poverty change in this country in the time that you've been doing your work with Period Purse?

JANA GIRDAUSKAS: Oh, it's been incredible. I think when we started four years ago, people were scared to talk about periods. Here we are on a national radio show saying menstruation. Last year in the House of Commons, there was a speech made around period poverty and menstruation and the importance of it. I know the Liberal government has heard me talk and a bunch of other great colleagues that we joined together. So everything from the government is is on all three levels are talking about it to it being in the media and people writing about it and on TV and in radio is that it really shows that we are reducing the stigma and we can talk about it because it's such a normal, normal thing that happens to half of us. And menstruation is really just health.

MG: In February - It's interesting because you talk about what's happening at the federal level. This is also a discussion that's happening at municipal levels. In February, the city of Hamilton gave the green light to a pilot project to make period products free at City Hall. The move did not come without a lot of debate. Take a listen to comments made by Hamilton City Councillor Terry Whitehead at a committee meeting in 2019.

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The other problem of having, Mr Chair, is the budget. I mean, we can always find new reasons to spend money we don't have. We got growing senior population. So when I look at seniors going into using at Westmount, for example, using the senior programmes and they may have a challenge, that is a dignity question as well and a health question. Where does this slow stop?

MG: Is that an argument that you hear about the cost and and why should you prioritise one group over another?

JANA GIRDAUSKAS: Yes, it's it's often the negative side that comes up to this. And the federal government also saw that in their consultations. We in many municipalities have argued about this in their councils and that often comes up. Whether it's a man who just doesn't understand the menstruation again, just like Mr Lennon said. How about not supplying free toilet paper? How would that be like to them? That often sinks in, especially to people who don't menstruate. But this is such a need and it goes really- Period poverty is the tip of the iceberg to menstrual equity and gender equity. So when we look at cost, we often hear this from people who don't menstruate or people who have been privileged enough to be able to afford it all the time. Up to four years ago, I never thought about what somebody does who's homeless and menstruate. So because of my privilege and I've always been able to afford period products. So it does just take some education. And that's where, again, the period poverty is just that tip that we see and we're talking about. But underneath all that, it's the education and the stigma that comes around periods and menstruation that we're really trying to change in that next generation. So when those young people are sitting on councils and they are making commercials or whatever their jobs are, they can be open and accepting and see that this is a need that that should be covered. And it is important.

MG: Let me play you one more comment from that same Hamilton council committee meeting. This is Hamilton Councillor Esther Pauls.

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I really believe women are always prepared. And if we're not prepared that day, we have ways. This is not a third world country. I just want to say that that's the reason I feel uncomfortable, used to be private and now we want to spend two or three hours debating it.

MG: A couple of issues there. One is this used to be private and she feels uncomfortable in debating this publicly. But that's a sigh, go ahead.

JANA GIRDAUSKAS: Yes, I know. So this is where the stigma is. This is where we've never talked about it. It is uncomfortable to a lot of adults. And this is where we need to start. Talking about it and not hiding it up her sleeve and having our male allies to also understand it, but she's I know like me, she was coming from privilege and just naive around the situation.

MG: Well, when she says we're not she says we're not a third world country and that this isn't something that should be an issue in Canada.

JANA GIRDAUSKAS: So this is also very misunderstood. And there has been some studies that have proven her wrong that 70 percent of Canadian women have actually miss work because of their period. And one in three people under the age of 25 struggled to afford their period products. So girls aren't going to school. People are missing job interviews and work because of it. And what does that put us? That puts girls and women and people who menstruate lower than our peers. And that is a gender equity issue that we really need to look at. And it's not just about a pad or a tampon. It's it's much bigger than that.

MG: Just in the last minute or so that we have. Do you see what happened in Scotland as a point of inspiration for what could happen here?

JANA GIRDAUSKAS: Oh, we're so proud of this really progressive legislation and it's a huge victory in this global movement. So I think it is going to create a very powerful wave in effect around the world. I know that governments look at other other governments and saying, hey, they did this, so can we. And I really hope that Canada we talked so much about gender equity and and women and girls and people who menstruate matter. But this is the time that action we need to take action and prove that in Canada, we also understand that period poverty is something that should be accessible to everyone.

MG: It's great to talk to you again, Jana. Thank you.

JANA GIRDAUSKAS: Thanks, Matt.

MG: Jana Girdauskas is the founder of the Period Purse.

[Music]

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio one, my name is Matt Galloway. In recent years, tens of thousands of people have died in the Mediterranean trying to get to Europe from Africa and the Middle East. Now, many of those people are trying a new route, treacherous waters of the Atlantic Ocean. That has left Spain to cope with thousands of migrants arriving in small boats to the shores of the Canary Islands. And most are coming from West Africa.

SOUNDCLIP

I'm sacrificing my life to cross the sea. It is very risk. The boat have a lot of people, somebody dead, somebody sick. I come here for trying to get work. Our country, nothing going on. Our country we didn't have nothing. We didn't have food, nothing. European, they wanted to help black people. They wanted to help Africa people because Africa is very, very, very, very hot.

MG: That's Ousman. He's from The Gambia, says he paid 2000 euros to take a small, crowded boat to Gran Canaria about a month ago. It's one of about 17000 migrants who have arrived this year, half coming in this month alone. Inigo Vila is the emergency unit director of the Spanish Red Cross. The agency is working with migrants who are arriving there on the Canary Islands, and he joins me now from Madrid. Good morning.

INIGO VILA: Good morning.

MG: You have been going back and forth from Spain to the mainland to the Canary Islands. Tell us about the situation there and how serious that situation is right now.

INIGO VILA: While the situation right now is not only a thing of numbers, you say, is the frequency, we receive most of them in the last month, especially these last weeks.

MG: Why are so many people making this voyage now?

INIGO VILA: Well, different factors are the reasons of why these people is taking that risk to take a small boat in poor condition and sail due in five to seven or even 10 days to reach to the Canary. Economic security politics. The reasons are different.

MG: Why the Canary Islands? I mean, what is was reading about the fact that the pandemic in some ways has affected other migratory routes that migrants might take. So why the Canary Islands?

INIGO VILA: Canary Islands in front of the western coast of the African continent and it is the second route closer to Europe. People is leaving from the western coast of Africa, from Sahara, Mauritania and Senegal, said taking the risk for five to 10 days off of selling in very bad condition.

MG: You mentioned the conditions, how dangerous is this journey?

INIGO VILA: Wow! Dangerous, it is when and when you just jump into a fisherman boat, very, very small, with very tiny engine, with no enough horsepower to to move and last all the waves. Days and days, completely crowded in a small boat with the risk of and so many days, and especially to try to find people in in such a huge area of nautical miles is extremely difficult to make a search and rescue to to these boats.

When they arrive on the islands, what sort of conditions are they living in? We're hearing about, you know, inhumane conditions of thousands of people who are living, for example, on these docks. What sort of conditions are they living in when they arrive?

INIGO VILA: When they arrive we do - in all our secure ports of our service. First thing is they're attended by by the Spanish Red Cross. We do health tiage of all of them, take in body temperature and take any other situation, any pain that they refer to. Then they receive some dry clothes, a small hygiene kit, and then something to drink and something to eat to to recover them from this long journey as soon as possible. And as they are under the custody of the police and the border. And is the police and the local authorities who are responsible for this, they are in the dark until they, again, are part of the humanitarian programme from the Spanish government. After this 72 hours that they have, the police has, to file and recall the names and origin and everything that's come from these people that normally arrives without any paper documentation that proves their origin.

MG: What happens then? I mean, we know that the government, the Spanish government has created these emergency camps that will house something like 7000 people. That's just a fraction of the number of people who are arriving. So once they are initially seen to by your organisation, what happens then to them?

INIGO VILA: Well, depending on the region, especially humanitarian and support that we give to these people through the Ministry of Social Affairs and Migration, as we all know, Canary Islands, it is a very touristic area that now is not it is not working because of the pandemic. And there is now so many tourism over there. So we took advantage of that situation to cover as an emergency and use that hotel empty hotels to accommodate these people while the Spanish government is constructed as these these camps, as you said, for this seven thousand, seven thousand people dead, depends on each person, asylum seekers or refugees or economic migrants.

MG: They're trying to get to mainland Europe. Will they be moved to the mainland?

INIGO VILA: I have no idea. For the time being, there is no any transport, any movement from Country Island to the mainland. But just today, the situation could change in a few hours as still life. The situation but is something that is has to be decided by the central government in Madrid between the two ministries involved. And we will just follow what their decisions on this topic.

MG: How are the locals, the Canary Island residents, how are they reacting to what's happening there?

INIGO VILA: Frankly, the people who are supporting all of our actions of humanitarian support to these people later on the politics all around on what to do with these migrants is that's politics is something that we are not involved on. But from from the Spanish Red Cross perspective, that community is supporting us. We do not see any problem with the Red Cross.

MG: Just finally, do you expect more migrants to arrive? I mean, given the proximity, as you mentioned, to the continent, but also the desperation that people are facing, do you expect more people to make this perilous journey?

INIGO VILA: We don't know exactly. That's one of the problems of right now the situation, that we don't have data. So we don't have clear numbers on how many people you see in the western coast trying to cross or not. I mean, while the situation in Africa is not as stable politically and socially, I mean that of course they will try. Are we in the peak of the of the curve or not? We don't know exactly in this case. We don't have numbers. We don't have this information from the. The other side, you know, from from Western Africa in 2006, you had the same circumstances of crises in Canary Island and now from one day to another, they start to descend that rivals the reason we don't know. But what we have to do is just to be prepared for anything and plan and make some contingency planning in case this continues to fall for some weeks or months.

MG: Inigo Vila, I appreciate you explaining what's going on on those islands. Thank you very much.

INIGO VILA: You're welcome.

MG: Inigo Vila is the emergency unit director of the Spanish Red Cross. We reached him this morning in Madrid. That's it for The Current for today. Stay tuned to CBC Radio One. Q is up next. Tom speaking with Kim Cattrall of Sex in the City fame. She's there to talk about her new programme called Filthy Rich, follows a wealthy evangelical family from Louisiana grappling with the sudden death of a patriarch, getting all sorts of great reviews. You'll hear Kim Cattrall talk about that coming up on Q. Before we go, we wanted to give a nod to a sporting legend.

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[Fottball game cheers and noises].

They are appealing for offside. The ball came back from off the foot of Steve [unintelligible] amd Maradona gives Argentina the lead. The England players protesting to the referee. That's where the ball came. Maradona continues to run forward. And the goal is given. Offside or was it the use of the hand England is complaining about.

MG: The use of the hand yesterday, one of the greatest soccer players of all time, Diego Maradona, died. Icon of Argentina, known for his explosive speed, his ability to put the ball into the net. He treated the ball in some ways as though it was attached to his foot, practised with an orange. And because of that and that small little ball that he was able to use was able to do things that I think most other soccer players could only dream of. Had a controversial history, though, and you just heard a little bit of it there, that famous goal from the 1986 World Cup quarterfinal match against England. It was when you look at the video, of course, obvious that he puts the ball into the net, not with his head, but with his hand. And of course, Maradona always said that it was the hand of God that punched the ball into the net. Madonna died yesterday from a heart attack. He was 60 years old. He changed the game of soccer forever, but also had a long history of drug and alcohol abuse after he retired from the game. We're going to leave you with the sounds of another famous Maradona goal from that same match against England. It is often called the goal of the century. The call of the goal is one of the best things you'll hear as well. This is Victor Hugo Morales. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. And we'll talk to you tomorrow.

SOUNDCLIP

[Soccer game noises and cheers]

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Thursday November 26, 2020

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