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The AIH Transcript for November 20, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Amazing Grace. One victim of the sword attack in Quebec City on Halloween night, was a cellist whose bow hand was badly injured. Tonight, he explains how he was able to forgive his attacker.

CH: An inconclusive conclusion. A Fredericton, New Brunswick man has found not criminally responsible for killing four people -- a verdict the widow of one of the victims says provides no real sense of resolution.

CO: Church and stats. As COVID-19 numbers rise in Steinbach, Manitoba, the city's Hutterite and Mennonite communities face an unjustified backlash because of false rumors they held an anti-mask rally.

CH: Pop idol threat. After Ugandan singer and presidential candidate Bobi Wine was arrested again this week, Kampala erupted in protests. And his lawyer tells us the powers that be are cracking down because they know he can win.

CO: Litmus toast. British celebrity chef Nigella Lawson divides the United Kingdom by revealing she butters her toast twice, which left some armchair critics feeling pretty crusty.

CH: And lightning rod. The new season of The Crown left our guest reeling. He's stunned that the actor who plays Prince Charles is so bad at fly-fishing -- and he won't let him off the hook. As It Happens. The Friday Edition. Radio that knows a bunch of famous actors don't necessarily mean an all-star cast.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Quebec sword attack survivor

Quebec sword attack survivor

Guest: Remy Belanger de Beauport

CH: For much of today, Remy Belanger de Beauport, was in rehab. The Quebec cellist is working to regain the use of his hands and much of the rest of his body. Mr. Belanger de Beauport is one of the survivors of last month's sword attack in Quebec City. On Halloween night, he saw a man dressed in a medieval costume with an unsheathes sword. That man attacked seven people. Only five of them survived. We reached Remy Belanger de Beauport in a Quebec City rehabilitation centre. And a warning: his experience was violent.

CO: Remy, how did rehab go today?

REMY BELANGER DE BEAUPORT: So it was a pretty quiet day. But still, every hour, I'm doing these hand exercises. And then four times a day I'm doing these arm exercises because both my right hand needs a lot of work and all my left arm and elbow especially need a lot of work. So I'm busy with all these tiny exercises so far.

CO: But your spirits sound good. In the video I saw of you or as I am hearing on the phone, you sound strong.

REMY BELANGER DE BEAUPORT: It's so strange what's happening to my spirits right now. I am in high spirits. And I don't let anything hate related or violent related filter through. So I get my life right now is painful and my body. But everything that enters my mind is all this positive thought and all this support. And also I'm trying to be patient with myself. As a musician does, I want to work so hard until it hurts and keep working, but they tell me here I have to keep my body in check and really respect not to go into too much pain.

CO: It's just extraordinary to hear you speak like this after what you've gone through. And I want to ask you about the Halloween night and when you were in the old city of Quebec and you encountered this attacker wearing what you thought was a Halloween costume. At what point did you know this was no joke?

REMY BELANGER DE BEAUPORT: When the sword hit my hand really. Because what I saw was this guy wearing a costume and then he's got this big big sword. Then he lift the sword up and I thought, he's a drunkard -- he's going to pretend to hit me, he's going to find it funny that my reaction is to be all fearful. And so I thought, I'm not going to react to any of this. But then it was all real. And the first hit was so bad. He really beat me up. Oh, and I'm sorry for your listeners: this is all really graphic. I'm not going to go into too much details. But I really think he beat me up with the sword, using it like a baseball bat. Like this guy is no professional for sure, because otherwise I'd be gone. I mean, I was really close to...I spoke with the police who saw video evidence of what happened, and they couldn't believe I was there standing in front of them.

CO: How did you get away?

REMY BELANGER DE BEAUPORT: I screamed for help. And a part of me still thinks that I screamed so hard for help that anything that was left of the guy in this violent body had to turn away for a second. I don't know why, but at one point he just was no longer there. And I was alone in a pool of blood -- in a fountain.

CO: At what point did you realize how badly you had been injured?

REMY BELANGER DE BEAUPORT: So after he left me in this fountain, I ran to Chateau Frontenac. And I was met there with great workers there, and they called the ambulance and the ambulance left. And then they realized they had to put some tubes inside of me and the breathing thing and everything. They had to ship me to Montreal to fix my finger. And then when I finally was waking up from this, I knew I was badly hurt. I had broken bones everywhere. But I think in the last week or the week before, when I spoke with my physiotherapist and she explained to me how my muscles were hurt and how my bones were hurt and which direction they were cut and which directions they were broken. And I could, like, re-enact the whole scene in my head and see all of these hits I had taken.

CO: That's just horrible. You had something in your hand and the doctors wanted to know what it was. What did you show them?

REMY BELANGER DE BEAUPORT: So as I was getting beaten in front of Chateau Frontenac, at one point, I guess the most horrible thing to happen to a musician happened to me -- I saw my hand and I saw a couple inches away was my finger, my index finger, I remember taking it from the ground, putting it inside of my hand and closing my hand around it and thinking I'm never going to let go. So they were x-raying my hand at one point and they're like, what's in your hand? And I'm like, well, it's my finger. And then I said, I'm a musician, and at this point they decided to ship me to Montreal where this surgeon works. She's my hero these days. I think about her a lot. I still don't know her name. I don't know now who she is, but I'm going to find out. And she connected my own finger back into my own hand. And now I guess the miracle of science is happening and maybe I get my finger back.

CO: And will you play cello again?

REMY BELANGER DE BEAUPORT: So as I was in Montreal under much much sedation, I was looking at my severed hand and all my arm right now is not functioning at all. And I thought, can I still play cello with these limbs, with these broken limbs? And I thought I can play cello with any limb. Nothing can stop me. I can play cello with my feet. I can play cello with my knees. I can sit on the cello hear it crack. I want to hear it crack. I'm getting all these ideas where I've always worked with the limits of my body as a creative artist. Now, these limits are really different and I'm going to have to probably make art that's different and I'm so down to do it. And for sure, I'm not going to play Bach anymore. But I was never playing Bach in public. [Chuckles]

CO: Your spirit is just amazing. Something else I want to ask you, because you also spoke of this in your video, is the feelings you have and had about your attacker. Can you describe that for us?

REMY BELANGER DE BEAUPORT: Yeah, it's really hard for me to explain to people who don't know me, perhaps. But I remember so as I was in the ambulance, for me, it was clear that I'd forgiven the guy because right now I'm just speculating, but I don't think anything of the guy was left in the body that I met. I met a violent body in crisis. And I feel like whoever this guy is, he wasn't there. And you know what? I want to know who he is. I can't have any hate towards this guy. For all I know, I think he's a broken soul, and I really wish him all the best.

CO: Remy, anyone listening to this would be inspired by you and your strength. And I'm sending you a lot of wishes and hopes for a speedy recovery. And thank you so much for speaking with us.

REMY BELANGER DE BEAUPORT: Thank you so much.

CH: Remy Belanger de Beauport is a cellist and a survivor of last month's Halloween sword attack in Quebec City. We reached him at a Quebec City rehabilitation centre.

[Music]

Manitoba COVID-19: Steinbach

Guest: Kyle Penner

CH: On his drive to work this morning, Manitoba's chief public health officer was discouraged by what he saw on the streets of Winnipeg: they were full of people. At a press conference today, Brant Roussin pleaded with Manitobans to stay home whenever possible after the province announced 438 new COVID-19 cases. And Winnipeg wasn't Mr. Roussin's only concern.

BRENT ROUSSIN: In Steinbach, the 10 day test positivity rate is 40 percent. 40 percent of people getting tested or testing positive. For comparison, the Winnipeg region is 13.7 percent today. In Steinbach alone, we have three personal care homes that have declared outbreaks. Three assisted living facilities have declared outbreaks. Bethesda Regional Health Centre is seeing high volumes of COVID patients. There have been 24 deaths in the community since the start of the pandemic. So we're seeing a lot of disproportionate numbers and we need to end that, we need people to follow the orders, staying home, leaving only for essential reasons, reducing our contacts. And we need to continue to try to bring down these numbers.

CH: Steinbach was in the headlines this week for reasons other than the high COVID-19 case count. Last weekend, anti-mask protesters marched in the community in a 'hugs over masks' rally. Many of the protesters appeared to be part of the local Hutterite or Mennonite communities, but they were not. Kyle Penner is an associate pastor at Grace Mennonite Church in Steinbach. We reached him there.

CO: Kyle, when you heard Dr. Roussin say that number -- a test positivity rate in Steinbach of 40 percent -- how did you react?

KYLE PENNER: Shocked. We knew it was high. This was the first time they've actually given us a number in Steinbach specifically, and none of us expected it to be that high. We are shocked, we are scared, we are sad, we are anxious. And we are all a little bit traumatized.

CO: I know you're not a health professional, you can't give an expert opinion. But what's your sense as to why Steinbach is seeing such a high prevalence of COVID-19?

KP: I've been asking around with my friends and family and peers here and we can't quite figure out what it was. They haven't named any super spreader events -- my friends and family, either first or second degree of these people. The ones who are testing positive, they have got it from trying to visit friends at a distance. They've got it from accompanying their parents and their grandparents in their last moments. And a lot of them just simply do not know where they've gotten it from. We've heard reports from doctors and public health nurses in my church, and they have said right now we are assuming that every indoor space has COVID in it.

CO: Every indoor space in Steinbach is basically infected.

KP: That is the assumption that we are supposed to make. Part of that is because they're doing lots of contact tracing here in town and they're having a very hard time pinning down where people are getting it. So they are assuming that it is just so widespread that it's everywhere.

CO: When we heard Manitoba's chief public health officer in that clip, he said that we need to end that, people need to start following the rules and doing what they're supposed to do. Some finger pointing going on at the community itself. It's not just like I don't know how I got this. But are people observing the restrictions that people have been asked to stay home, to wear masks, to keep at a distance -- is that being observed in Steinbach?

KP: Manitoba has a colour coordinated system from yellow to orange to red. And now we are in blood red, what I call. So in a matter of two weeks, we run from yellow to orange to red to blood red. So this kind of sprung up on us very, very quickly. So what we were doing at the end of October, we had the same public guidelines that were in place in August for us when there was probably close to zero cases in our community. Now we are seeing oh, my goodness, there was probably all sorts of COVID in our community at the end of October, beginning of November, before we ramped up the public health system.

CO: And yet the news on the weekend was this anti-mask protest against masks, about 100 people in Steinbach. And a rally 'hugs over masks' Where did that come from? Is that actually a sentiment you find common there?

KP: I'm not going to say it's not here, but that rally specifically, there some organizers from Winnipeg who have been planning rallies around Manitoba all summer and all fall. And I think the dates for Steinbach last weekend just was our turn. It coincided with reports from our hospital that they were full and overflowing. So the timing was not great. The speakers from that event were not from our community. The elected official was from the town next door. The church members, half the people attending were from a small church 12 miles south of Steinbach. I've seen pictures. My friends have seen pictures. And except for the elected official, we don't know any of the people who attended this thing. So it did happen in Steinbach and some people attended it, but the majority of them were not from our community. And unfortunately, we get to wear the headline of anti-mask protest in Steinbach at the same time that our hospitals are overflowing.

CO: Well, not just your community, but your church, right, because people blamed the Hutterite and Mennonite communities for that rally. You are a pastor at Grace Mennonite Church. And so how is it that they came to blame people like the congregants of your church?

KP: Yeah, there's one group that in the area that has a very specific dress code, so you can easily identify them. And so I think it's a little bit of a caricature to a really easy way to slander Steinbach as a whole for the actions of a few.

CO: You wrote a piece that was published in Canadian Mennonite in which you say that there's all kinds of finger pointing on. And meanwhile, you said we are dying here. What was the message you wanted to send to people?

KP: After the rally last Saturday, it was very frustrating because people not from our community were blaming all of us and slandering all of us. I noticed people saying I'm never going to Steinbach again. Today, I see Steinbach has a 40 percent test positivity, you guys deserve this, you had an anti-mask rally. And I just wanted to communicate to people that if your first take is smugness or arrogance or sanctimoniousness, that's not helpful to us. I really want people to lead with empathy and compassion first.

CO: And what response did you get from people to what you've been saying?

KP: Very positive. So my own church, we invited all of our congregation to light candles facing on the street window as a sign of support and prayer and solidarity for all of the health care workers and all of the patients in the hospital and all of their families. This last week has been a really uniting for all of us, I kind of joked that two of my friends who would never vote for the same political party texted each other saying, you get the Liberals, I'll get the Conservatives [chuckles] and we will show support to our health care workers.

CO: This community of yours, 16,000 people in Steinbach. And so when you got a test positive rate of 40 percent, it would seem that almost everybody knows somebody or has someone in their family who has COVID. 24 deaths, people would know them. How can you move on from there? What do you think needs to happen in your community to help you heal from that?

KP: I don't know. It's hard because all of our rituals of grieving and funerals, we can't do those really well over Zoom. A lot of it is simply trying to rely on our relationships and our connections with our family and friends and doing our best to take care of each other. Those of us who were younger, going grocery shopping for those of us who are older. Those of us who are able to work from home and the employers letting them, even though there's four year olds running around the house. It's a lot of us kind of pulling together and trying to be as patient and empathetic and compassionate as possible.

CO: Kyle, thank you very much for your words and for speaking with us.

KP: Thank you very much for having me.c

CH: Kyle Penner is an associate pastor at Grace Mennonite Church in Steinbach, Manitoba, which is south of Winnipeg.

[Music]

The Crown fly fishing

Guest: Dominic Witherow

CH: The new season of the Netflix show "The Crown" is being criticized by some historians and royal watchers for what they say are inaccurate portrayals of moments in history or even the complete fabrication of some events in the lives of the Royal Family in the 1980s. Dominic Witherow certainly has one major criticism. When he was watching the show last week, there was one scene in particular he just could not ignore.

VOICE 1: [Soundclip: Sir, telephone for you.

VOICE 2: Hello.

VOICE 3: Dear boy, my office rang Buckingham Palace what must be an hour ago, and I've been put through to about nine different extensions. Where have we finally reached?

VOICE 2: North east Iceland in the Lords on the river Hofsa.

VOICE 3: What are you doing there?

VOICE 2: Salmon fishing with friends. Classy bone with the whole gang.

VOICE 3: The whole tribe. Everyone's asking after you.]

CH: Mr. Witherow doesn't have a problem with the historical details there, but he does have a serious problem with the fly-fishing technique displayed by Josh O'Connor, the actor who plays Prince Charles. We reached Dominic Witherow in Chobham, Surrey.

CO: Dominic, how would you describe Prince Charles, his technique for fly-fishing in The Crown?

DOMINIC WITHEROW: Well, I imagine the real Prince Charles is something of an expert fisherman. However, the fishing that is displayed in the TV show was just atrocious. What really struck out was the way the line was cast. It absolutely crashed into the water with absolutely no technique at all. It would have scared off any fish for miles around. It was so much amateur-ly done that I felt really they should have got that a bit better. It was just awful. Any fisherman would have winced to see it.

CO: Now, it wasn't just a flash frame, was it? I mean, it wasn't a fleeting moment. They actually went to details of showing the scene and in fact, showing Charles opening up his box of flies and choosing one carefully. Why did he go to all that detail and just be so, I guess, ham fisted in their cast?

DW: I honestly don't know. I think that things like looking at equipment and making sure you've got the right bit of kit, that's all pretty easy to do -- all you have to do is get a decent fishing shop and say, what do I need to look like I'm a good fisherman? But the actual skill of casting a line is something that you learn over the years in some cases. And it is a real art and it's not something that you can fake. But I think that the filmmakers simply didn't care that this was something that they had to get right. They didn't consider that there were millions upon millions of avid fishermen and might be watching their show.

CO: Prince Charles, the actor, does land a really quite large fish with this. So what does that say to you?

DW: Well [chuckles] I think they really wanted to show him despatching it. And so they have him absolutely bludgeoning it to bits. [Chuckles] I mean, goodness knows what was left of it at the end. I think it was to show an emotional turmoil. And also the story is building to a particularly brutal and cataclysmic event. It's all part of a foreshadowing of that. But it wasn't convincing, not remotely convincing.

CO: But it's a very good point. I mean, that it was a metaphor, right? This brutal killing of the fish -- rest of the Royal Family is out hunting, everyone's out killing something. And meanwhile, of course, it was building toward and I guess no spoiler alert necessary here because it is history, this is Lord Mountbatten who is about to be assassinated in a lobster boat. So all of this is going on. So, I mean, isn't it more symbolic than instructive?

DW: It is, absolutely. But that's a show that has millions upon millions of pounds and dollars thrown at it. It's exquisite to watch. The acting is superb. The cinematography is magnificent. And then they don't pay any attention to really important details, important to certain people. There is no question as to the fact that it's a terrible display fishing from a man who in reality is extremely accomplished of that sort of thing and he's been doing it his whole life. One of the few things in the show that can be right or wrong, and they get it wrong. [Chuckles] It's lazy.

CO: So you decided you needed to put pen to paper or to send a letter to The Daily Telegraph -- a kind of shocked and appalled letter. What was your intent with that?

DW: Well, to be honest, it's primarily a joke. There is a bit of a tradition with The Daily Telegraph, which is very much the establishment newspaper -- the Prime Minister, Boris Johnson used to work there. And there are frequently quite pompous letters, people getting upset about things that really seem fairly insignificant. I wanted to write a joke letter. I thought, oh, this will be funny, I'll come across like some old curmudgeonly colonel sitting in a tweet and getting very frustrated at these people who don't know what they're doing. And I thought that the very opening sentence in which I said my wife and I were watching it specifically say that we could pick it up on its inaccuracy, a total prejudgment of the thing. And I thought a detail that is insignificant, but as I've explained, could be important, would be the appropriate thing to pick up on. I mean, there were plenty of other things that I spotted, but this was so blatant. And so I penned this absolutely outraged letter and sent it off without really thinking it would get through to the letters editor at all. And I must say, I was very surprised the next morning when a friend contacted me and said, oh, I've seen your letter in the newspaper. And then, of course, a couple of hours later, it absolutely exploded all over the place. And now I'm talking to people all over the world about it. It's extraordinary.

CO: Okay, so you kind of went viral. I understand you went to as high as 27 followers on Twitter.

DW: [Chuckles] Well it's even higher than that now -- it's 40 something apparently. Extraordinary. [Laughter]

CO: So are people agreeing with you or saying, oh, get a life or what? What kind of responses?

DW: A mixture. A mixture. Most people seem to recognize that it's a joke at the expense of The Daily Telegraph more than anything else. But there are plenty of people who are responding with, oh, I winced at that moment as well. And a lot of people aggrieved by the fact that the fishing was so poorly executed.

CO: All right. It's good to talk to you Dominic. Thanks.

DW: Thank you so much.

CH: Dominic Witherow wrote to The Daily Telegraph paper this week to alert readers to the poor fly-fishing technique displayed by the actor playing Prince Charles in the new season of The Crown. We reached him in Chobham, Surrey.

[Music]

Part 2: Widow of Fredericton shooting victim struggles to accept not criminally responsible verdict

Matthew Raymond verdict

Guest: Jackie McLean

CH: Not criminally responsible. That was the verdict in the trial of Matthew Raymond, the Fredericton man who shot and killed four people in 2018. The dead included two police officers who were responding to the shooting. Two psychiatrists diagnosed Mr. Raymond with schizophrenia. During his trial, he testified that he thought he was shooting demons, not real people. But the Crown argued that Matthew Raymond's delusions weren't severe enough to cloud his ability to understand what he was doing. Jackie McLean is the widow of Constable Robb Costello, one of the police officers killed. We reached her in Fredericton.

CO: Jackie, first of all, our condolences for your loss.

JACKIE MCLEAN: Thank you very much.

CO: Can you tell us how you reacted when you heard this verdict of not criminally responsible?

JM: Well, I did sit through the closing arguments and the judge's instructions, and based on that, I had a pretty good idea what the verdict might be. And so I was mentally prepared for it, but it was still shocking.

CO: You will have a chance to give a statement as to what impact this has had. Do you have an idea what you want the court and the public to know about the effect of the loss you have of your husband in this shooting?

JM: I think it's really important to recognize that Robb's loss is not just felt in my life and in my family's lives, his loss has been one for the whole community. He was an amazing police officer. He specialized in diffusing situations and working with people with mental health issues. And the entire city of Fredericton has lost him as a police officer and as a part of the community.

CO: What is it about that job that he liked? What was it? Because you said elsewhere that every day he went to work, he never lost enthusiasm for the job. What is it that was so important to him about being a police officer?

JM: One of the things that drew me to Robb initially was his commitment to the community and making the world a better place. And I had never really known anybody who had such a strong commitment to their community.

CO: And did you ever discuss the possibility that it might end tragically as it has?

JM: Yes, actually, we did very early on in our relationship. He brought me a book called Emotional Survival for Law Enforcement, and he asked me to read this book and then let him know if I was prepared for that kind of a commitment. And I was committed. I was on board. He was worth it.

CO: And did he not also promise you that he would always come home?

JM: Yes, he did. He promised me. He said it might not be at the end of shift, could be hours and hours later. But he said, I will always come home. And the day that he was killed was the first time that he did not come home.

CO: You said at the time that you just couldn't stop waiting for him to come home, that that would be the hardest thing for you to adjust to.

JM: I still have moments where I think he's going to come home. And I have actually had moments where I heard the front door slam and I heard him bang his boots on the doorframe like he did when he would pop home while he was working. And my heart breaks when I realize that those footsteps don't come down the hall and greet me with a smile like he always did.

CO: I'm so sorry.

JM: Every day without him is painful. And it's not gotten any easier with time, I didn't realize that about grief. When he first died, I thought that it would get better, but it doesn't really. It never really goes away.

CO: This man, Matthew Raymond, he killed your partner and also another police officer and two other civilians. And he is found not criminally responsible. You sat through his testimony in the trial. What did you make of him?

JM: Gosh, if I spoke honestly, I would probably say some things that would hurt some feelings and I don't want to do that. I volunteer in the community with mental health and I understand the complexities of mental health issues. I don't feel 100 percent like he was sincere in his testimony. I feel like he pulled the wool over on us in some degree. And yet at the same time, I don't want to pass judgment because I don't suffer from the same mental illness that he does. I don't understand what it's like to be inside the head of someone who has schizophrenia or delusional disorder. But that being said, his lack of remorse is really insulting for me as a family member of one of the victims.

CO: He testified that he believed he was shooting demons and not humans. The Crown indicated that he had modified his rifle to double the amount of ammunition it could hold, he barricaded his door, and he shot with the intention to kill. Are those the aspects of this that give you pause, give you a question about his testimony?

JM: Absolutely. He said in court that he was shooting at anything that moved, except that there were several individuals inside of apartments and in the parking lot that were moving that he never took aim and fired on. I don't want that to sound like I wish he'd shot more people, but I don't understand how he made a conscious decision to shoot certain individuals and not others. And that's the part for me that I have the most difficulty with.

CO: Your concern for people with mental illness has led you to open a home for adults in Fredericton, and you named it after your partner, Robb Costello. Why did you want to give him that honour?

JM: Prior to Robb's death, we had planned to open a new facility, and it was a good opportunity for Robb to be remembered. There is a very very strong need in our community for more housing for adults with mental illness. And we would like to open three more facilities and name those facilities after the other victims.

CO: Do you think a home like this one and the others, that that is some place that could have helped Matthew Raymond and maybe someone like him to prevent crimes like this from happening?

JM: Absolutely. I think that had someone or anyone said, hey, this guy needs help and there have been resources available for him that this tragedy could have been averted.

CO: In these cases of someone found not criminally responsible, there is the possibility that they could be released someday. How do you feel about that possibility?

JM: It's utterly terrifying. I never want another family to have to go through what our families have gone through. And this gentleman has demonstrated that he's unwilling to take his medication unless he's forced. And for that reason alone, I feel like he will never be able to be released. And I just hope that whatever review board is assessing him for that will also see that. But given today's verdict, I don't have much faith in that.

CO: Jackie, thank you for your openness and thank you for speaking with us.

JM: You're very welcome. Thank you.

CH: Jackie McLean is the widow of Constable Robb Costello, one of two Fredericton police officers who were shot and killed, along with two other people in 2018. Today, a jury found the shooter, Matthew Raymond, not criminally responsible for the deaths. We reached her in Fredericton, New Brunswick. And you can find more at: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Rachel Maddow

CH: For two weeks, Rachel Maddow has been away from her show on MSNBC. And her time off was the opposite of a vacation. Ms. Maddow has been at home taking care of her partner, Susan, who contracted COVID-19 and was so sick that at one point they thought she might die. Susan is still sick, but now she's recovering. Rachel Maddow revealed all this last night in a segment broadcast from her home where she's in quarantine. And with Thanksgiving around the corner in the U.S., she warned Americans to do everything in their power to not get or transmit the virus. Here's part of what she had to say.

RACHEL MADDOW: I don't know you at home except through this medium. But just believe me, whatever you have calculated into your life, as acceptable risk, as inevitable risk -- I'm just here to tell you to recalibrate that, frankly, the country needs you to recalibrate that, because, broadly speaking, there's no room for you in the hospital anymore. But please just also know that whatever you think of your own life and however much risk you are willing to take on for yourself, that's not how this works. What you need to know is that whoever is the most important person in your life, whoever you most love and most care for and most cherish in the world, that's the person who you may lose or who you may spend weeks up all night freaking out about and calling doctors all over and trying to figure out how to keep that person breathing and out of the hospital. Just whatever you're doing, however you've calibrated risk in your life, don't get this thing. Do whatever you can to keep from getting it. For Thanksgiving next week, you really are going to have to just have it at home without people coming over. And yeah that's going to suck, but that is going to suck so much less than you or somebody in your family getting this and getting sick. Trust me, it won't necessarily be you. It'll be the person you most care about in the world. And how can you bear that? And whatever you've been willing to do to risk getting it, don't -- just don't do it.

CH: MSNBC host Rachel Maddow broadcasting from her home where she's in quarantine.

[Music]

Uganda protests

Guest: Nicholas Opiyo

CH: If the idea was to suppress Bobi Wine's popular support, his arrest this week only did the opposite. Bobi Wine is a Ugandan pop star and a candidate for Uganda's upcoming presidential elections. He's hoping to unseat long-time leader Yoweri Museveni. Mr. Wine was arrested on Wednesday and accused of breaching COVID-19 regulations with his political rallies. His arrest sparked two days of massive spontaneous protests to which the Ugandan army responded with live ammunition. Police say 37 people have been killed. Bobi Wine was released on bail today. Nicholas Opiyo was one of his lawyers. We reached Mr. Opiyo in Kampala.

CO: Mr. Opiyo, I know you have spoken with your client, Bobi Wine tonight, what kind of a spirit is he in?

NICHOLAS OPIYO: He's a tough guy, so he was expecting this. He's in good spirits. He was heartened to know about the widespread support expressed for him across the country while he was in detention. He is looking forward to resuming his campaign tomorrow and in the weeks to follow.

CO: The charge he is faced with is for contravening the Public Health Act, for which he could face up to seven years in prison. The claim is, is that it was a contravention of the rules around the coronavirus. Do you think that's really the reason why he was arrested?

NO: Absolutely not. Nobody in Uganda believes that this is about COVID guidelines. Members of the ruling party, including ministers, have been holding large rallies across the country and nothing was done to them. So clearly, this is not about COVID guidelines. This is about a politician so popular who was now approaching the city, having done his tours of northwestern and northeastern Uganda, and attempt to try and stop him from holding such large rallies in Kampala or in any part of the central district.

CO: The police have responded to the rallies and the protests against the arrest of Bobi Wine. They have responded with live ammunition and the reports are between 28 to 37 people have been killed. The minister of security has said that police have a right to shoot and you die for nothing, do it at your own risk if you want to protest. What does it tell you that the security forces are being so severe with these protests?

NO: Well, first of all, they are now 58 reported dead bodies as of this evening in Kampala. I think that the security forces have taken a war posture. They have taken these demonstrations as a declaration of war and therefore deployed war tactics. We have seen non-uniformed armed individuals moving in the city and shooting at people who are simply chanting Bobi Wine's name. We have seen individuals driving private cars, shooting at people randomly. The national commissioner for the Ugandan People's Defense Forces was on TV yesterday and declared this a situation of war. The minister of security, as you said, has declared this a shoot to kill policy for anybody who demonstrates. So the situation is really worrying.

CO: As you point out, Mr. Museveni has been the president of Uganda for 35 years. And now Bobi Wine is contesting his presidency. What kind of a threat does he pose to Mr. Museveni?

NO: Uganda has a young population. Official government statistics show that 75 percent of our population are below the age of 35. Bobi Wine's candidacy has shown renewed interest in public life in politics by the young population. If indeed this supports translate into votes, it represents a real threat to President Museveni. A 38 year old individual who was born just a few years after Museveni came to power, who only became an MP three years ago, and a musician of humble background is inspiring people to believe to reimagine Uganda. And that is what threatens President Museveni.

CO: President Museveni said yesterday that the protesters were, "Being used by outsiders, by homosexuals and others who don't like the stability and independence of Uganda. We shall not tolerate confused people. They are playing with fire." What does the message do you think that President Museveni is sending to Ugandans with those words?

NO: It is a common refrain of President Museveni every time his back is to the wall to blame an amorphous group called foreigners. It is not very clear what that means. But he does so deliberately. One to put the international community on the defensive, to guilt trip them so that now when you're speaking with the Ugandan government, you begin by apologizing and saying that you are not after regime change in Uganda. In essence, you are therefore fended off from holding him to account for what he does. Second reason, and that's why he goes to homosexuals, is that he wants to stoke a sense of nationalism and seek to blame a minority, a very small minority in this country who are already vulnerable, who are targeted, who are intimidated, who are harassed every day. So he is seeking to use to scapegoat this minority to turn the population against a political opponent.

CO: But Mr. Museveni is not going to go without a fight and he has the security apparatus of Uganda behind him. How Bobi Wine stand up to him, given he's been arrested many times, often violently, can he resist?

NO: I think that in consistently arresting Bobi Wine and the political opposition, President Museveni is showing his true colours. He's becoming more brazen. The people whose sons and daughters they are killing on the streets are not people who are being won over and will support the ruling party who is creating more discontent. Shooting and killing can only turn people against him and precipitate his exit from power.

CO: Mr. Opiyo we will be watching. And I appreciate speaking with you tonight. Thank you.

NO: The pleasure's all mine.

CH: Nicolas Opiyo is a lawyer representing Bobi Wine, a Ugandan pop star and presidential candidate. We reached him in the capital of Uganda, Kampala.

[Music]

Butter

CH: To be fair, making ordinary food seem extraordinary is Nigella Lawson's bread and butter. The British celebrity chef can literally butter bread in a five minute how-to video and rack up thousands of views. But as we now know, also split her country in two. In a recent segment on her BBC show, Nigella's Eat Cook Repeat, Ms. Lawson broke down her method for making toast. A few minutes in after spreading a generous layer of butter on the hot toast. Ms. Lawson did the unthinkable.

NIGELLA LAWESON: I favour the two stage buttering approach, and so far only stage one has taken place. And that's to say the minute this came out of the toaster and still lovely and hot, I spread it with butter so that the butter has melted down into it and it'll give it a fabulous crumpety bite. Stage two now ready for it -- I need a little more butter and it will stay in some golden patches on the surface. It's unsalted butter, which I always prefer to use. But what I need to do is sprinkle some sea salt flakes over.

CH: Now, don't get lost in the fabulous crumpety bites and golden patches. You did just hear Nigella Lawson telling viewers to butter their toast twice. Reaction spread quickly on social media. Now, keep in mind, this is coming from a nation that also frequently spreads Marmite on its toast. So let's take these takes with a gag inducing number of grains of salt. "Heart attack on a plate right there," one user tweeted. "Shook to the core of that Nigella invented buttered toast," added another. But some people were on board with the extra butter. I do this and thought I was a monster. Thank you for normalizing it, admitted a monster. And one fan took things even further, tweeting "I stand Nigella Lawson twice buttered toast. I'll do it thrice for the love of butter." Proof that when it comes to butter on toast, you never know which way people will churn.

[Music]

Steven Marshall

CH: In South Australia, a man lied about his connection to a pizza shop and that caused a six day lockdown. The state's police commissioner talked about that unfortunate situation during a news conference there on Friday as officials announced they would be loosening some restrictions. Apparently the man with COVID-19, who hasn't been identified, told contact tracers he was simply a customer at a pizza shop, which prompted concerns about a super strain of the virus because his exposure at the shop would have been very short. But it turns out the man was actually an employee at the pizza shop and he'd been working alongside another COVID positive person. Here's what South Australia's Premier Steven Marshall said about the case.

STEVEN MARSHALL: This story didn't add up. We pursued them. We now know that they lied. I stress this point that this is still a very dangerous cluster, and our health experts remain extremely concerned. We are still trying to locate thousands of people who may have had dangerous contact at the Woodville Pizza Bar. Even more now that we know this person lied, we need to find and isolate a whole new group of associates. We are still urging South Australians to get tested. But just as we have acted immediately to put restrictions in place to keep South Australians safe, we are going to act to lift them much sooner than previously advised. I will not let the disgraceful conduct of a single individual to keep South Australia in these circuit breaking conditions one day longer than what is necessary. However, this lie still means that our contact tracers need breathing space to contact people, but not for as long. To say that I am fuming about the actions of this individual is an absolute understatement. The selfish actions of this individual have put our whole state in a very difficult situation. His actions have affected businesses, individuals, family groups, and it's completely and utterly unacceptable.

CH: That was the premier of the state of South Australia, Steven Marshall. The ABC is reporting that Police Commissioner Grant Stevens has announced a task force to look at what laws may have been violated, backtracking on previous statements that the man wouldn't be punished.

[Music]

Part 3: Georgia senate race

Georgia senate race

Guest: Robert Patillo

CH: In American politics right now, much depends on Georgia. Earlier today, its Republican secretary of state affirmed Joe Biden's presidential win, following a manual recount of ballots. But there will be two more crucial runoff elections in the state in January. And the results will determine which party controls the U.S. Senate. With so much at stake in these Senate races, millions of dollars are already pouring into Georgia for both parties, and the ad market is saturated with political messages. Robert Patillo is a Democratic strategist in Atlanta. That's where we reached him.

CO: Robert, just how crazy is this runoff campaign in Georgia going to be?

ROBERT PATILLO: Well, we're looking at a situation where we might end up having a half billion dollars spent in Atlanta and in the state of Georgia over the next 60 days or so. You know, the entire balance of power of the United States Senate is at stake. So I think we're going to see the full weight and power of the American political system laid to bear here in Georgia.

CO: Okay so lots of money going to pour in, lots of ads. What's the mood? How enthusiastic are Georgians about getting back into the polls and voting?

RP: Well, one of the issues that we're going to face in this runoff is the fact that normally turnout for runoff elections in Georgia is right at 10 percent. So all this money is going to be meant to push that amount up. So we're going to see President Obama here, we're going to see Joe Biden and Kamala Harris here. We're going to see Donald Trump here and all the Republican establishment coming down, because you have to turn out your base in order to win this. And whoever can best drum up that enthusiasm is going to be who's going to win both of the seats.

CO: Do you have any sense of how much enthusiasm there is, though?

RP: Well, I think there's a lot of enthusiasm for Reverend Warnock. You know Reverend is the pastor at Ebenezer Baptist Church where both Dr. King and his father pastored. He's a Southern Baptist minister in the south, which is very helpful. He is a graduate of Morehouse College, which has a huge network here in the state. There's a lot of enthusiasm. And there's a lot of trepidation on the Republican side of the aisle, because as we're still dealing with this recount issue in Georgia, you're having both senators, Loeffler and Perdue attacking the secretary of state, Brent Raffensperger, you're having President Trump putting his finger on the scale and claiming that the system of the election was rigged against them, despite having no evidence of that. So I think the Republican side of the aisle was [inaudible] in this discussion than the Democratic side of the aisle where people are still trying to basically coalesce around candidates and drum up enthusiasm.

CO: Okay Robert, I am going to unpack a lot of what you just said, because for a Canadian audience, we need to get a more of a thumbnail sketch of the races. Now, you mentioned Reverend Raphael Warnock, who's up against Kelly Loefflet -- who is the appointed senator. And then the other one is Jon Ossoff against David Perdue, is that right?

RP: That's correct. And so, Pastor Warnock, I gave a quick biographical sketch of him. Senator Loefflet is a little bit of a blank slate, because what you see with her is that she was appointed to the seat. So she was not obviously elected. She does not have a long political history in the state. And many people are of the opinion, the belief that because her husband is a multibillionaire, that she bought the seat. On the other side of the aisle, you have David Perdue, who is the incumbent senator, who is also a billionaire running gift against Jon Ossoff. Jon Ossoff, he was an aid to the late Congressman John Lewis, and a documentary filmmaker, and consumer advocate. So you have a very much a generational battle as well as the ideological battle. So we're seeing the battle for the soul of Georgia because Georgia has been a state that's had a lot of transplants come in recently. So many people from the north, from Chicago or Detroit or New York or Boston have moved to Atlanta and they've brought more liberal policies with them from the north, which has changed the political complexion of a state like Georgia or even a state like North Carolina, where we saw Obama win that state in 2008 and in 2012.

CO: So a lot of the reasons why Mr. Biden was successful in Georgia was for what you cited, which is that the state has changed a lot, hasn't it? And so it's difficult to predict how these things will stack up. We know that Kelly Loeffler who is up against, as you say, Reverend Warnock, she has described herself as the right of Attila the Hun. And she and David Perdue have both been really staunch supporters of Donald Trump's campaign to say that he won the election, that it was stolen from him, that all of this is a fraud. So how is that playing? I mean, is that helping them to align themselves so closely with the right and with Mr. Trump?

RP: No, no, it isn't. Let's understand one, the president from lost Georgia by nearly 15000 votes. So aligning yourself a saying that you're to the right of that, I don't think that's very helpful, particularly when you have a younger population in the state, you have an increasing minority population in the state, you have a large LGBTQ population in Georgia, particularly in Atlanta. The idea of saying you're to the right of Attila the Hun, I don't think that's a very successful general election strategy.

CO: Is it possible I mean, with all this money, as you say, nearly half a billion dollars potentially to be spent on these Senate races, does that help or hinder? I mean, we've seen elsewhere where huge amounts of money were spent for the November 3rd election, that didn't really help, did they? In fact, they may have been a distraction. Do you think that the money is really the thing that's going to buy this election?

RP: No, I don't. And primarily, I think it's going to be an issue of how you allocate that money if you simply spend a bunch of money on television commercials, it is going to be completely ineffective. That's primarily because we're running into the Thanksgiving holiday next week, then you're running at the Christmas a few weeks after that it is New Year's. So you can't really just invest only in the air war. You're going to have to put boots on the ground to turn out votes, get absentee ballots in the hands of voters, motivate people towards early voting. That will be what wins the race. So if you deploy your resources properly, the money can be effective. But if you are just simply blowing it on silly commercials where you're having actors dressed up like Attila the Hun, then more likely that's not could be the best use of your resources.

CO: The significance, again, for a Canadian audience who may not be following this as closely, if the Democrats are able to get both of these seats, Joe Biden will be able to get his agenda to Congress -- without which he may not. But is it not possible to consider that there will be a less partisan Senate? Is it absolutely positive that without these two Senate seats, Mr. Biden will not see his agenda through?

RP: It is absolutely positive about these two Senate seats, Mr. Biden will not see his agenda go through. Mitch McConnell made it very clear during Obama's second term what his priorities and his agenda was, which is to ensure that Republicans maintain control of the Senate, that they maintain control of the federal judiciary, and that they stop the president from doing any work. And so it's a crucial to have that majority in order to be able to do any work in any business in the Senate.

CO: All right. Well, we will be watching. Robert thank you.

RP: Thank you.

CH: Robert Patillo is a Democratic strategist in Georgia. He was in Atlanta.

[Music]

Benjamin Ferencz

CH: 75 years ago today, the world's first war crimes tribunal began. During the Nuremberg trials, 22 high ranking Nazi officers face trial for the mass murder of millions during the Holocaust. American lawyer Benjamin Ferencz was just 27 at the time of the trials. It was his first case and the most important of his life. In November of 1995, on the 50th anniversary of the start of the trials, Mr. Ferencz spoke with our former host, Michael Enright. Here's that conversation from our archives. And a warning: some of the details in this interview are disturbing.

BENJAMIN FERENCZ: It was my job is to go into the camps as they were being liberated and try to secure the evidence of crime or apprehend the criminals. And that brought me into some of the leading camps like Buchenwald and Flossenburg and Mauthausen and many others.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: I can't imagine what that must have been like. I'm wondering how it affected your work in the ensuing trials, what you brought to those trials because of what you saw?

BENJAMIN FERENCZ: Well, of course, it had a tremendous impact on me. And it affected me not only in the trials themselves, but in all of my subsequent endeavors in trying to prevent a recurrence of that type of crime anywhere in the world. And the trials themselves, of course, it meant a great determination to my drive to hold accountable those who had been directly responsible for those terrible atrocities.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Of the 22 that you prosecuted, they were all found guilty.

BENJAMIN FERENCZ: Yes, they were.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Did they all hang? Was it all?

BENJAMIN FERENCZ: No. These were members of the special extermination squads called Einsatzgruppen. I selected the highest ranking officers that I could catch against whom we had the overwhelming evidence. The evidence relied on was strictly their own reports from the field recounting day by day how many Jews and gypsies and others they had simply slaughtered -- men, women and children -- by driving them out into the woods. For example, the Babi Yar massacre outside of Kyiv, right, 33,771 Jews killed in two days on the Jewish high holidays, recorded in their own reports -- not denied by them, these defendants. I rested case after three days. They took six months in preparing their defense. And it took me four months to rebuttal all the lies that they came in with. I was able to gain complete convictions. Now, the lead defendant, was a man by the name of Brigadier General Otto Ohlendorf, who killed 90,000 people, according to his own reports. And when asked to confirm the validity of that report, he said, well, we can't really be sure -- you know, sometimes my boys exaggerated the body count and it may have been a bit more or ir might have been a little bit less. But he didn't challenge. He, of course, was sentenced to death, along with 13 others who were sentenced to death in that trial. If you measure success by death sentence, which I think it was a rather macabre standard, it was the most successful of the subsequent Nuremberg trials.

CH: That was lawyer Benjamin Ferencz, who tried Nazis during the Nuremberg trials, speaking with former, As It Happens, host Michael Enright in 1995. Today marks 75 years since the start of the Nuremberg trials.

[Music]

Ainara’s Bookshelf

CH: 11 year old Ainara Alleyne loves to read, but she doesn't always love the titles available to her. Growing up Black in Hamilton, Ontario, she's found kids books with protagonists who look like her are few and far between. So she took matters into her own hands and launched an Instagram account highlighting some of her favourite exceptions to that regretable rule. "Ainara's Bookshelf" has it all: recommendations, readings, reviews, even author interviews. And of course, it has Ainara who spoke to CBC Hamilton about the project.

AINARA ALLEYNE: With everything happening in the world, I wanted people and kids of colour to see themselves represented properly. You know not through like stereotypes or different things like the news where you see people getting hurt and killed because of the way we look. So I decided that I was going to I was going to share my love of reading and diversity to sort of make Ainara's Bookshelf, and it's also because of my own experience with school libraries. You know, I would go looking for a book and you would never see anyone in a book that looked like me. I would never be able to see a Black girl doing something really cool, being an astronaut or something like that, you know? And the only time I would actually see Black people in books in the library would be Black History Month. And it would all be about slavery and slaves or just hurtful stereotypes. The books that I recommend, they make Black characters look good, they make them normal, you know, they don't make them different -- they make them your normal main character but they're just Black. And I just think that it makes them believable and relatable. Relatable, that's the main thing -- relatable. It allows kids to relate to the story. I get DMs from people sometimes saying that they bought a book that I recommended because I recommended it, or teachers saying that they added one of the books to the classroom, some of the books to the classroom, and parents saying that they let their kids watch one of my readings. And I mean, it means so much to me and it's so important to me because it means that I'm making a difference.

CH: 11 year old Ainara Alleyne speaking with the CBC's Christine Rankin about her Instagram account celebrating diverse kids books. One of Ms. Alleyne's recent favourite's is Something to Say by Lisa Moore Ramee.

[Music]

Jill Barber

Guest: Jill Barber

CH: Jill Barber is getting ready to perform on a stage that was demolished more than half a century ago. And if that wasn't challenging enough, she will be backed up by ghosts. The singer songwriter is doing a live virtual performance tonight at a long gone venue called the Palomar. She's teamed up with a special effects production company to recreate the once hopping Vancouver supper club. We reached Jill Barber in Vancouver.

CO: Jill, what are people who attend this performance are actually going to see?

JILL BARBER: Well, we have virtually resurrected the Palomar nightclub, which was actually a hot spot in Vancouver back in the day. So I'm working with this local Burnaby, British Columbia based motion capture facility -- they do quite a lot of work with Hollywood, working on films like Star Wars and Deadpool. And what they do is they put real human beings in motion capture suits and they capture the movement of human bodies, of limbs and the way the body moves. And then they recreate that, reanimate, using visual effects into a character that will appear. And so I will actually be performing with a phantom jazz band backing me up.

CO: The jazz band, these are real musicians?

JB: These are real musicians playing in real time, just as we always do, except that they will be in motion capture suits about 20 or 30 feet from me in reality. I in reality will be performing in front of a green screen and on a green stage, but it will visually appear to our audience that we are all on a stage together performing.

CO: So it's kind of a room that you're going to be performing against?

JB: Yes, that's right. Exactly.

CO: The virtual world that you're talking about, you're saying is not just a place that you're creating, it's a time, right. So this nightclub, the Palomar, hasn't existed in decades -- how do you know what it looks like?

JB: That's right. The Palomar is a famous Vancouver nightclub from the 30s and 40s was actually demolished in 1955. But there is still a great deal of photographic evidence of what the interior looks like. And since we've announced this show, we're also hearing from a number of folks their memories of what it was like to be inside the Palomar. But we have visually recreated the stage of the Palomar has kind of an art deco look. It's kind of what you would imagine an old school vintage supper club would look like with a tiered stage and a beautiful backdrop and then tables and chairs and a bar and, you know, the whole deal.

CO: And so tell us a bit about the Palomar. Who performed there?

JB: Acts like Billie Holiday, Ella Fitzgerald, the Mills Brothers, the Ink Spots, Louis Armstrong, like a whole slew of the big artists back in the day, would come into residences here in Vancouver. So we've just been hearing all sorts of incredible stories and anecdotes about what it was like to actually be in this nightclub.

CO: So lots of memories are stirring up here. Do you think you can actually evoke the same atmosphere as the Palomar? I mean, given the fact that it was probably a place where people were eating and drinking and probably smoking and dancing. And you had that critical mass, you had that physical contact with others, how far can you go to recreating that experience?

JB: Well, in coming up with the concept for this show, myself and Shocap Entertainment, the production company, we felt it would be kind of poignant to attempt to recreate this atmosphere that so many of us are deprived of: a night out on the town. Now, how much can we recreate it? Well, I think we can only take it so far. We're creating the the visual environment, the music, the hustle, the bustle, the atmospheric sounds of glasses clinking and audience members chit chatting and applauding. I think it's down to folks on the other end to maybe create a little bit of atmosphere at home. You know, I'd recommend folks could turn the lights down, maybe pour themselves a glass of something refreshing. I do know there are some fans that will be preparing a special meal to go along with the show.

CO: And in creating the atmosphere it will have a texture, it will have a sound or a feel of being in a big hall with a bunch of people, a big audience that's there.

JB: It absolutely will have that look and feel. And the audience will be able to view the show from a number of different perspectives, from sitting at a table, in the middle of the audience, you know, moving around the room to the bar, up to the stage. And our goal is to kind of give people the sensation that they are both travelling back in time and a little bit into the future at the same time, with this really cutting edge technology allowing us to help create this atmosphere.

CO: We have heard -- we've spoken with performers and artists who have had a hard year, as I'm sure you have, you're feeling really frustrated, cut off from that magic of performance and connection. How has it been for you? How difficult is it?

JB: You know, so much of my career as a musician for the last 18 years has been about creating momentum and keeping that momentum going. And overnight, you know, it just ground to a halt. And as a performer, as a musician, as somebody who spends a lot of my life going out on the road and performing for people in a room, it was disorienting. What I do for a living as a performer, it's so much more than just a job to me -- it's wrapped up in my whole identity. So it has been a hard year. But the good news is I have found this has also been a creatively fertile time for a lot of people, not just artistically, but across industries. People have had to reinvent how they do their business. And it's no different in the music industry. We as artists have had to reinvent how we can connect with our audiences. And I have found in this time that the essential ingredients for that connection truly are human beings and the music. And the technology is really just the platform that allows us to continue to have that connection.

CO: Wow. Okay well then I hope you are able to create that magic and not just for yourself, but for everyone who takes part in it. And thanks so much for speaking with us.

JB: It's been my pleasure. Thank you Carol.

CH: Jill Barber and her phantom jazz band performed live tonight at the recreated Palomar Supper Club. She's in Vancouver. But you can attend from anywhere you'd like by visiting: jillbarber.com.

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November 20, 2020 Episode Transcript

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