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The AIH Transcript for November 16, 2020

Hosts: Nil Koksal and Chris Howden

Prologue

NIL KOKSAL: Hello. I'm Nil Koksal, sitting in for Carol off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: A new new hope. A virologist tells us what today's announcement of promising results in another COVID vaccine trial might mean for the future of the pandemic.

CH: Nothing flat. With his hashtag #Covidzero trending on Twitter, a Toronto doctor argues the best approach to saving Canadians lives and jobs is not just reducing coronavirus transmissions, but eliminating them.

NK: Difficult territory. Nunavut saw its first confirmed case of COVID-19 this month. Now one small hamlet is contending with 20 cases.

CH: In dangerous precedent. An Afghan asylum seeker loses his young son trying to cross to Greece from Turkey. Now Greek authorities have charged him with endangering his child.

NK: Waste makes haste. A group of Dutch university students build a zippy, fully functioning car almost entirely out of recycled garbage. The project manager says she hopes more like it will follow down the road.

CH: And not to put too fine a point on it. In his new book, Barack Obama opens up about the challenges of the presidency, including the lousy pens they give you a global summits. As It Happens. The Monday Edition. Radio that knows sometimes things just don't click.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Mayor of Nunavut town hit by COVID-19 asks residents to stay calm, tend to mental health

Moderna vaccine

Guest: Alan Bernstein

CH: Once, maybe lucky. Twice, maybe something more hopeful. As you've probably heard on the news today, the drug maker Moderna announced its coronavirus vaccine has shown promising results so far in trials, it's been 94.5 percent effective. This seemingly good news follows on the heels of Pfizer's optimistic preliminary results for its vaccine. Both vaccines use something called 'Messenger RNA.; It's never been used successfully for immunization before. Alan Bernstein is a virologist and the head of the Canadian based research organization CIFAR. We reached him in Toronto.

NK: Mr. Bernstein, how are you sizing up this announcement from Moderna today?

ALAN BERNSTEIN: I think like the Pfizer announcement last Monday, this is a remarkable result. We've had two Mondays in a row where we've woken up to 90 to 94 and a half percent efficacy of these new RNA vaccines. It's quite remarkable and I think they're going to be game changers.

NK: How do the Moderna results in particular compare to what we heard from Pfizer?

AB: Well, in many ways they're similar. There's a few differences. And we know a little bit more about the Moderna in the terms of the people who were in the trial, which is important, I think, in terms of, for example, the diversity in the Canadian population. So one thing we know for sure is that the Moderna vaccine seems to prevent the severe cases of COVID, which is important, obviously. So nobody in the group that got the vaccine actually had a severe case of COVID. All 11 cases that were severe in the placebo group, the group that got the controls. I think the other thing is that in that 30,000 people trial, there is about 11,000 people of colour, about 7,000 who are over 65, and 5,000 with high risk medical conditions. Despite all of that, the efficacy of the vaccine was still 94 and a half percent. The other good thing about the Moderna vaccine is the distribution of this vaccine, I think, could be a bit easier than the Pfizer one. Besides what needs to be kept very cold, in a cold chain around -70 centigrade. No doctor's office has a -70 freezer. The Moderna vaccine can be kept at four degrees centigrade, typical host fridge, for about a month after it's thawed. So it's going to be a lot easier to distribute that vaccine, not just in Canada, obviously, but around the world.

NK: In terms of the groups that you mentioned that were part of the 30,000-plus subjects of the Moderna trials, were those groups not present in the Pfizer trials? Or we just don't know as much detail about that?

AB: We just don't know as much detail. We didn't get that information from the press release. And that's, I think, one of the caveats of both trials -- this is science, if you will, by press release. So we'd like to see all the data in a publication, but we haven't seen that yet. You know, I think it's understandable that both companies would want to release the data as soon as possible. This is exciting and important data that affects all of us. But it would be nice to see the details and the breakdown of who exactly got the vaccine or the placebo and who was in these phase three trial. We also don't know, of course, how long this protection will last. So will people need to be vaccinated once a year, once every six months, once every two years. And that's going to just take time -- to follow the individuals in the trial and see how long they're actually protected from the virus, so that's what remains to be seen. There are other vaccines coming, of course, so they'll have the same caveats. But, you know, we're going to have a kind of a nice embarrassment of riches of different vaccines made in different ways, and we'll see if they all protect. But assuming that they behave as well as the two RNA vaccines that we've just heard about, I think it's really great news and it hopefully will be the way we're going to beat this virus.

NK: Let's dig into what you just said there. The technique that they're using, messenger RNA or M-RNA, how does that work?

AB: So that little spike protein on the outside of the coronavirus that we all see in the pictures that's coded by a blueprint of that blueprint is RNA. And so when you make an RNA vaccine against that spike protein, what you do is you take the blueprint, the RNA for that spike protein and you encapsulate in what's called a lipid nanoparticle, a technology, by the way, developed in Vancouver at the University of British Columbia. And then you introduce that into the cells in our body. And our cells then become factories that make that protein, that spike protein. So they don't make the whole virus. They just make this like spike protein. But our immune system sees it and that's what's key. It pre-arms our immune system, it says that's a foreign protein, I'm going to start making antibodies and other arms of our immune system so that if I encounter it again, if you're infected with the virus itself, our immune system is ready to tackle it. And what's exciting about this is we've never made vaccines this way. This is a whole new platform for making vaccines not just for COVID-19, but for the next pandemic. And if it works, one of the great advantages of these vaccines is they can be made faster, that's why we're getting the results from the two RNA vaccines before any of the others. It can be very quickly once you've sequenced the virus that's causing the problem.

NK: How do you allay the fears or concerns of people who are thinking this is happening so fast when it usually takes years and years to come up with a vaccine? On one hand, people want a vaccine so they can maybe get about their daily lives, get back to normal -- on the other hand, they're thinking, wait a second, you know, we're seeing these press releases, companies want to win this race, how safe will it be?

AB: That's a really important question. First of all, the speed that's going on here is not compromising on safety. You know, when a vaccine is made, typically it's done in a linear fashion. You do a phase one trial, then a phase two, then a phase three. You show the regulator the data, in our case in Canada -- Health Canada, and the regulator then says that we like the data, we don't like the data, or we want to do some more experiments and it goes back and forth. And then you decide if you finally get approval, you start manufacturing the vaccine. And so that can typically take two to four to five years or more. What's happening now is we're collapsing this -- instead of doing it in a linear fashion, we're doing it in parallel. So the phase one trial is being done, that's being followed immediately by a phase two and phase three. And while that's going on, the manufacturer is starting to make the vaccine even before we know whether it's going to be approved or whether it's going to be safe and effective. And at the same time, the regulator is starting to see the data as the trial is going on. So we're not sacrificing on safety. And indeed, it actually would be hard to because I don't think there's ever been vaccine trials that have been so much under the microscope by the public as these trials.

NK: Mr. Bernstein, thank you for your time.

AB: You're welcome.

CH: Alan Bernstein is a virologist who leads the nonprofit research organization CIFAR. He was in Toronto.

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Arviat outbreak

Guest: Joe Savikataaq Jr

CH: Nunavut is now trying to stamp out its first wave of COVID-19. The territory announced new restrictions today, ordering non-essential businesses to close, advising masks in all public spaces, closing schools, and limiting social gatherings. Nunavut confirmed its first ever COVID-19 case 10 days ago. Now, the total case count is at least 26. 20 of those cases are in the hamlet of Arviat. Joseph Savikataaq Jr is the mayor. We reached him in Arviat.

NK: Mayor Savikataaq, your hamlet, I know, has tried to be very proactive during this pandemic. Do you think, though, it was only a matter of time before Nunavut would have to contend with COVID-19?

JOE SAVIKATAAQ JR: The government of Nunavut has done what they could to prevent anything from entering Nunavut. But when the cases in Winnipeg started to rise, which is our close connection to southern Canada, I think it was a matter of time.

NK: Why do you think Arviat in particular is seeing the majority of COVID-19 cases in the territory?

JOE SAVIKATAAQ JR: That I cannot answer at this moment. I'm not a medical expert, but we are working on that right now, to figure out why or how it entered Arviat.

NK: Do you have a hunch or an idea how it got into your community?

JOE SAVIKATAAQ JR: There's only one road to Arviat and it is from Winnipeg. And there are people that go down there for medical reasons, although there's a mandatory isolation hub in Winnipeg hotels, that one must stay. But as I'm sure medical experts that are listening across the country would know that some people do not show any signs of symptoms when they're carrying it.

NK: I know you, along with all of us, we've been watching this pandemic sweep the globe. It has not landed in your community until now. How have you and your community members been preparing for this moment?

JOE SAVIKATAAQ JR: Well, we've been preparing for this. We knew this day, in case it came, we were getting ready just in case, whether it came or not. All of our shields are up, but everything's in place. We're in a very good mode right now to stop the transmission any further than it is going right now. And we will prevail.

NK: You know, I was reading that a lot of folks in your community were wearing masks even before it was mandatory when they were out and about -- that's something we don't always see in other jurisdictions. What are your biggest challenges right now in limiting the spread?

JOE SAVIKATAAQ JR: The community has been amazing. Even before our hamlet council met for emergency meeting on Remembrance Day, we met and had an emergency meeting when there was the first case in our neighbouring community here. And for those of you that do not know where we are, there's no roads connected to where we come from, so everything is by aircraft only. We immediately went into lockdown mode -- basically back to what we were back in March and April. Even before we had our meeting, people were already wearing a mask, even though there was no case where we come from. And I really like to thank everyone that has done their part so far.

NK: Even still, the virus is in your community now. What concerns and fears are people sharing with you? Anywhere there's a jump in cases, people get spooked. What are folks there saying?

JOE SAVIKATAAQ JR: Definitely, people are in a bit of a shock right now as it is in towns now where we come from. And we have been COVID-free for many many months while the rest of the world was getting cases. And we remain [inaudible] for a long period of time and now that it's here some people are quite in shock and not surprisingly. But we are trying to mitigate that and we're trying to control manage fear so that people aren't too scared, but yet at the same time to respect this virus, because this virus here, you cannot see it, you cannot hear it, and you cannot smell it. We are dealing with unforeseen force here and we want people to be ready. And please try and control your fear and your mental health -- one of the most important things is the mental health right now.

NK: Also making sure the right information and not misinformation or disinformation is out there. In a small town, word travels fast and sometimes rumors spread fast as well. What are you seeing on social media?

JOE SAVIKATAAQ JR: Exactly, you are very correct on that. This is a small town with a population just over 3,000 people, and word does travel fast. As word travels, everything gets twisted along the way or changes direction in course. But please to the people that are listening, whatever you see on social media do not believe it unless you see it from the government of Nunavut or the hamlet of Arviat's Facebook, those two are reliable and accurate.

NK: The premier, your dad, Joe Savikataaq, he has said there is certainly community spread in Arviat in particular. How do you combat that?

JOE SAVIKATAAQ JR: The best thing to do right now is to absolutely stop visiting, which they're already doing and following. But there was a time that before we knew it was in town unknown to us, that it has been spreading.

NK: In a small community like yours, a close knit community, and you mentioned mental health, it's a struggle for people right across the country, isolation in particular. But in a small community like yours, how big of a sacrifice is not visiting?

JOE SAVIKATAAQ JR: It's very big that people are very social up here. There's a lot of big families who interact with each other. And it's very hard on people right now because they're [inaudible] right now. And there's a housing shortage up here in Nunavut. And, you know, there are a lot of overcrowded homes where people are crammed in like sardines. That's another hurdle that we have to try and get over.

NK: We should tell people that you took the job of mayor back in March when the previous mayor, Bob Leonard, had passed away. You've had to learn pretty quickly on the job.

JOE SAVIKATAAQ JR: Very much. I went straight into the fire. And luckily I was working close with Bob while he was with us and I was his deputy mayor at the time, so that helped quite a bit.

NK: How are you trying to reassure the people in your community mayor?

JOE SAVIKATAAQ JR: Remain calm and being an example by -- when I go out to the store like anyone else to get groceries or whatever essential stuff that we need at the stores here to not panic or just remain calm. Lead by example.

NK: It's good advice. Mayor, thank you so much for your time.

JOE SAVIKATAAQ JR: Thank you very much.

CH: Joe Savikataaq Jr is the mayor of Arviat, Nunavut. We reached him there and to hear more of what the mayor had to say, go to our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Electric waste car

Guest: Lisa van Etten

CH: Luca is a sporty yellow two-seater electric car, so it makes you look and it makes an impression. But it's what Luca is made of that is really interesting. A group of students from the Eindhoven University of Technology in the Netherlands spent over a year building it and it's made of waste. Lisa van Etten is an automotive technology student and was the project manager. We reached her in Eindhoven, the Netherlands.

NK: Ms. van Etten there's a picture of you and your teammates that I was looking at before our chat, standing next to the car. You all look very very tall. I want to stand next to this car so I can feel tall. But how comfortably can you actually fit inside of it?

LISA VAN ETTEN: It's actually quite comfortable. We have some very big guys in our team, if I may say so, and they all fit comfortably in the car and drive comfortably. And it looks like a tiny little car indeed, but it drives comfortably, so that's really nice.

NK: I wanted to ask what it feels like to drive a car that you've built while still saying that it has to be certified road safe. I know you're working on that separately, but what was it like to drive it around?

LISA VAN ETTEN: It's actually quite awesome. You work so hard for one and a half years to work an end goal towards that, and it feels amazing the first time driving in it. And you feel like a king or queen just driving in it.

NK: How fast can it go?

LISA VAN ETTEN: Because of regulation we have to limit it to 90 kilometres an hour. And we just drove on a circuit because we are still not allowed on the legal road. We drove 80 kilometres an hour just for some testing already. So not the real testing yet.

NK: And it is the entire thing made of waste or did you have to buy some of the parts?

LISA VAN ETTEN: It's mostly waste, but unfortunately, we had to buy some materials like the tires and some electronics. But the most important part and most parts are indeed waste. So the nice parts are chassis, so that's like the structure part you begin from building. And that's actually made out of ocean waste PET bottles, so that's just your normal plastic bottle, and the flax. And there we made a structure of the PET bottles and then we made a panel out of it. So to place flax with the ocean waste and in between and had great structure of the PET bottles. So that's one of the most structural parts, and it is really nice. And of course, we have some sort of household waste that you just throw normally out from your own home in our interior. And also our body is made out of regenerated ABS plastic. So ABS is also a kind of plastic, which you all can see in, for example, Lego or already some bumpers of cars. And I can name a list of other materials.

NK: A couple in particular, horsehair and coconut fibers. What did you use those for?

LISA VAN ETTEN: Those are for our seats. So actually our cushions are made out of horsehair and coconut hair. That's why you sit so comfortably also in the car. And then the outside around it so the upholstery of it is actually made out of the recycled PET bottles as well, but in a whole other form, so it feels more sway like.

NK: Why did you call it Luca?

LISA VAN ETTEN: Well, we thought it was a very nice name because we decided very democratically -- a lot of team members to come up with a certain amount of names and everybody throws them on the one stack and eventually we had a list and everybody gets to vote on which name it has to be eventually. And Luca rolled out of it, so, yeah, that's it.

NK: Was it kind of the idea to give it an Italian sports car vibe?

LISA VAN ETTEN: No, not really. Not specifically. We just wish to make a sports car because one of our main goals as well was to make sustainability sexy in a kind of way, because a lot of times sustainability is not seen as something that is a highly attractive or it's just not normal yet. And we felt like, well, a lot of sports or car enthusiast like sports cars, so why not make a sports car then if we want to make sustainability more attractive? Well, attractive for them as well. So that's more of a quite like making sustainability sexy.

NK: Is this your first time building a car?

LISA VAN ETTEN: Yes, definitely. Definitely. I've never done it before. Of course. And actually, for every team member of us, nobody has built a car before.

NK: Well you built a quite a car on your first try. What do you hope happens in the years to come? Do you see mass production of a vehicle like this made predominantly out of waste? Do you see big companies one day building tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of them?

LISA VAN ETTEN: I really hope so. That's also the dream, of course, you build something like this, but you also want to see it in practice eventually with maybe car companies or maybe in some other form. I don't think it will happen very soon, of course. But you already see some car companies implementing in their interior waste materials, plastic materials, recycled materials as well. So it's slowly coming up. And I hope eventually they will put it, of course, more and more and also structural parts of waste and recycled parts into the car companies. But also maybe other industries can use these kind of materials as well, since it's a bit of a showcase as well. It's not necessarily for car companies. We wish to show it's in a complex situation that, yes, that you can see that it's possible. So many other possibilities are there as well.

NK: Lisa van Etten, I'm so glad we could chat. Congratulations.

LISA VAN ETTEN: Yeah. Thank you very much for that. Thank you for your questions and your interest. Very nice to talk to you.

CH: Lisa van Etten is an automotive technology student at the Eindhoven University of Technology in the Netherlands. That's where we reached her.

[Music]

Pens

CH: Every G20 summit is an opportunity for world leaders to come together and write a new chapter in the story of international cooperation. But they probably don't read it with the pens that are provided because those pens are garbage. Former U.S. President Barack Obama's long awaited book, A Promised Land, comes out tomorrow. We know he writes candidly about the battle over the Affordable Care Act, Donald Trump, and the strain the presidency put on his marriage. But we did not know his candor would extend to lousy pens at global summits. In an interview in The Atlantic, Jeffrey Goldberg prompts him to discuss one passage in the book by referring to, "The crappy pens at the G20." And then Mr. Obama opens Pandora's box. He says, "You're at the G20 and you're doing your thing, but you're also thinking, how does this work? There's a commemorative pad and pencil and there are mints. And then there are these disappointing pens. I made the point because you're at the G20 and there's all this pomp and really a lot of the conventions are not that different from the trade show at the convention centre in Dubuque. There's the tchotchkes and the cheesiness." Well, we knew Barack Obama was a pen-nerd, favouring the smooth action of a Townsend, which retails for about 150 U.S. But he had diplomatically refrained from criticizing the pen supplied by other G20 countries to this point. Now he's coming clean about his time in office and his life is an o-pen book.

[Music]

Part 2: #COVIDzero doctor

#COVIDzero doctor

Guest: Andrew Morris

CH: A Toronto doctor is calling for Canada's exploding COVID numbers to be replaced with a single digit. Andrew Morris is an infectious disease specialist at Sinai Health and University Health Network. Dr. Morris says skyrocketing coronavirus numbers are proof that Canada's current approach to the pandemic is doomed to fail. So he's calling for politicians and public health officials to adopt a target he's calling COVID-zero. We reached Dr. Andrew Morris in Toronto.

NK: Dr. Morris, for those hearing the phrase COVID-zero for the first time, what do you mean by that?

ANDREW MORRIS: What I mean by that is setting a clear target where government, public health officials and the public should be aiming for, which is to get as close as possible to zero cases and zero community transmission.

NK: What do you think it would take for Canada to achieve COVID-zero?

AM: Well, I think it would take initially quite a substantial effort and it would take a cohesive effort that would require some hardship up front. I think it would be misleading to state otherwise. But it would also require serious investments at all levels of government and public health to get an aggressive test, contact tracing, isolating, and support system in place, and also putting plenty of effort into supporting really all people, that includes, you know, business owners and their employees and really anyone else who might suffer from pursuing a COVID-zero strategy.

NK: Do you think a complete lockdown or something similar to what we had back at the end of March, April, if I recall correctly - it's been a long time -- is that what needs to happen right now?

AM: I'm not sure we need a complete nationwide lockdown. What we really need to have is a discussion about trade-offs. What we unquestionably need to do in many places around the country is to drop the number of cases to a really substantial level. There are two main ways to do that. One is to be, I'm going to say patience, but that's probably not a good term, and be less aggressive and would have a slow decline in cases, if at all. I think in many jurisdictions we've tried to do that where we've tried to have less aggressive measures and we've actually failed in being able to halt the rise in cases. On the other hand, we can address this aggressively. And the more aggressive we do so, the more rapid the decline in cases. And what we really need to do is get the cases down to an extremely low level after which we'll be able to manage them very effectively.

NK: There are concerns, as always, when we talk about shutdowns, full or partial, how do they mitigate the economic concerns?

AM: So I think the first thing we need to understand is that not doing this actually has probably broader economic concerns. What countries who do this have achieved is no foreseeable future third wave or in some places no foreseeable second wave. We're in the midst of our second wave, and the ultimate goal is to avoid a third wave. And really any other approach other than trying to target towards zero is going to inevitably result in a third wave. So the economic cost, if we're talking about the cost to businesses, the challenge of businesses having uncertainty about opening and closing, all these costs are greater when you don't work towards getting the caseload down substantially so that you avoid any future waves.

NK: I'm certain every premier and every public health official would agree that zero transmission is the ultimate goal. What do you think is holding them back?

AM: I think there's a couple of things. One is, even though they may have that as a hidden goal, I don't think there is a single government in the country who has articulated that as a goal. And on top of that, I would say that because they haven't articulated it as a goal, we haven't pursued that goal and we've tolerated, in my mind, fairly unacceptable levels of transmission, especially over the late summer months and early fall. And that's really resulted in where we are today.

NK: What's going to happen if governments don't take your advice?

AM: I'm assuming you've followed the news in Europe.

NK: Absolutely.

AM: Yeah, well, that's what's going to happen.

NK: So you're talking about repeated waves.

AM: It's unquestionable. We're following the exact blueprint of most other high income countries, certainly all of them in Central and Western Europe and the United States as well. And, you know, I'm a sports coach, and the one thing I've learned over time is you don't copy the losers because you're not going to be a winner if you follow the losers, you go and try and replicate or at least figure out what the winners do. And right now, we're pursuing a losing strategy.

AM: Which winners? Which countries should we be emulating?

AM: Well, I would say what I refer to is the APEC countries, the Asia Pacific countries and Atlantic Canada, that includes New Zealand, Australia, Thailand, Vietnam, South Korea, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Atlantic Canada. There's more -- it's not a tiny list. And each of them have their own challenges, but they've been successful.

NK: Why do you think we are following, as you say, the losers as opposed to those winners?

AM: I think it's complicated, I think probably the main reason is we still have a very Eurocentric view of the world and we think that what's been achieved in locations that are rather remote to us can't possibly apply to our situation. Either they are tiny islands or they have cultural differences that absolutely are the only explanation for why they've been successful. And we, I guess, tend to align historically with our European and U.S. counterparts.

NK: Just before we let you go, as premiers continue to give their message to people across the country, what do you want to say to those premiers?

AM: What I'd love for them to do is to get together and at least have a shared vision. I think Canadians deserve our best chance at battling this before we have the roll out and implementation of an effective vaccine. And Canadians should be able to expect no third wave.

NK: Dr. Morris, I thank you for your time.

AM: Thank you.

CH: Dr. Andrew Morris is an infectious disease specialist at Toronto's Sinai Health and University Health Network.

[Music]

Kim Ng

CH: When she was growing up in Queens, New York, Kim Ng played stickball. Now she's been named the general manager of the Miami Marlins, making her the first ever woman to be a GM in the majors, and the highest ranking woman in Major League Baseball. Over her career, Ms. Ng has won three World Series rings well in the front offices of the Chicago White Sox, the New York Yankees and the L.A. Dodgers. She also spent nine years as a senior vice president with the MLB team. But despite that track record, at least five other teams turned her down for big jobs in baseball operations until the Marlins hired her on Friday. The Miami Marlins reached the playoffs this year for the first time since 2003 under the leadership of CEO and former superstar Derek Jeter, who bought the team in 2017. Here's Kim Ng speaking at Marlins Park today.

KIM NG: I can't tell you how much it meant to me to see the outpouring of just pure joy and all the congratulatory messages that I received. It really made me take a step back and realize just how many people I've had a meaningful intersection with. And it really became about me being able to share the moment with so many. And it made me realize that it really was a glimmer of hope that if you work hard and you persevere and you're driven and you just keep going, that eventually your dreams come true. I got calls and text messages from guys that I've known over the years who were just so excited to tell their daughters and wives. And then I got voicemails from friends, front office executives with tears, just so happy that, you know, I had broken through. But really, I think more for the sport and more about what it meant for us in society. You know, the next part of it was reflecting on what it took to get here. And something that should really not go unnoticed is fearlessness. The gentleman to my left, Derek, embodies that word, fearlessness. I was privileged and fortunate enough to watch Derek for four years every day get out on that field. And that was his approach to the game. He left it all out there every single day, fearlessness out on that field. And now with this, we see it off the field. In my research of the Marlins organization, I was looking at the staff pages and it struck me that there were just so many different types of people that currently work here. You know, there's great female representation in the scouting department, analytics department, the medical department, our COO. And that was really striking to me. But what was more striking was just the amount of experience, the different perspectives, the different backgrounds that all of these people come from. And it's with that diversity of experience and background that we're looking to build a championship caliber.

CH: That was Kim Ng speaking from the Miami Marlins Stadium in Miami, Florida.

[Music]

Greece migrant parent charged

Guest: Dimitris Choulis

CH: It was, like many others, a sea crossing that ended in tragedy. The boat carrying 25 asylum seekers was attempting to get from Turkey to Greece when it capsized. And later, the body of a six year old boy was found on the shore of the island of Samos. Now, the child's father has been charged with endangering his son's life. Dimitris Choulis is the lawyer representing the Afghan asylum seeker. We reached Mr. Choulis in Samos, Greece.

NK: Mr. Choulis, how is this father doing now?

DIMITRIS CHOULIS: Right now, he's just got out of quarantine, tomorrow we will meet. And right now he's very confused of what exactly has happened because the first two days, the police handcuffed (him) in the cell. We had only two hours to speak to each other. Then he had a hearing, but he couldn't understand exactly what happened. So tomorrow we will try to sit down and explain to him what exactly has happened and what his future will be, and what he has to do in the next months, here in Greece.

NK: So you've only had a couple of hours to talk to each other. He knows he was taken into custody. How has he been able to process, if at all, what has happened to his son?

DC: I think he couldn't and he haven't. I think he will need the psychological support and there are groups here that are willing to provide it to him. And I'm sure for that because we tried on Tuesday and we took him to the hospital, handcuffed, and even though he was so confused of what is happening, he seemed like he didn't understand what has happened to his son. And after he went to the morgue and came back, he was devastated. He couldn't even stand. Afterwards, we went to the court -- still, he's very confused. And after that we tell him that he's free from prison, he was thanking us like it was the end of his problem because he has not understood that this is just the start.

NK: If we could just go back a little bit Mr. Choulis, Yahya, six years old, and his dad, Nadir, who's just 25, they're originally from Afghanistan. They were staying in Turkey. And then we're trying to get to Europe.

DC: Yes, actually, they left from Afghanistan after the bomb attacks against Nadir's mother. So when he was nine years old, he was already a refugee, the father. He went to Iran and after that he fled to Turkey. All this time, for a lot of years, he was very afraid to do the big step to Greece, to Europe, because he was too afraid of the sea, as he told us. And that's why he didn't come here to apply for asylum. But after his second rejection in Turkey, he had only two options, the one to go back to Afghanistan that he didn't want, and the other to do this crossing, this dangerous crossing from Turkey to the Greek islands. So he did that and his fears actually came true and they didn't succeed both of them to come to safely.

NK: So the goal, the ultimate goal was Austria or potentially the United States.

DC: His goal was safety, that's why he stayed in Turkey for a long time, as long as he could.

NK: Have you ever heard of a case where a father of a child in this situation has been charged?

DC: No. Here in Greece, no. It's like that because it's according to the law, this accusation. But not when you are an asylum seeker. So right now, until now in Greece, we haven't heard it before. And at the same time in Italy, we have a similar case where the Italian authorities didn't press charges against the father and the mother of six month old that died, but they opened an investigation for the authorities about their actions. And this is what we believe should happen also here. We had a big delay from the announcement of the shipwreck until the rescue mission. And instead of opening the investigation, why this happened and why they didn't arrive earlier, why they didn't they ask for the help from other ships here in Samos to send helicopters, they waited and they found the boy after nine hours in the coordinates that already had nine hours go. So instead of opening an investigation against the Coast Guard about the delays and the mistakes in this rescue mission, they decided to charge the father. I think it's one more obstacle they try to put to asylum seekers, so they will know in the future that if you bring your family here, you may face criminal charges for putting them in the boat.

NK: You think they're making an example of him to try to deter people from coming over?

DC: Maybe.

NK: What do you think about that tactic?

DC: I think that in the Europe of 2020, where our borders is the most important things, it's normal. This is what they do. But in the Europe that we were dreamt of and we were saying that this is the United Europe, that they will give freedom to people and have some values, greater values. This is not right.

NK: What do you think will happen to your client now?

DC: All of them, all of the asylum seekers are in a very difficult situation already. So he has one more problem to face. He will be like a hostage in Greece for the next one to two years until his trial ends. And hopefully all this drama, his story maybe eventually can help him after his problem with the Greek authorities -- his trial -- maybe after two or three years, he can actually live in Europe. We hope for that.

NK: Mr. Choulis thank you so much for your time.

DC: Thank you very much.

CH: Dimitris Choulis is a lawyer. He was in Samos, Greece.

[Music]

Norther Dancer

CH: They were neck and neck when they came into the final turn, Northern Dancer out front with Hillrise and the Scoundrel close behind.

ANNOUNCER: And here they are in the homestretch. Northern Dancer showing the way, it's Northern Dancer out in front by a couple of lengths. Hillrise is running second. Scoundrel coming up to third. Northern Dancer leading by two and a half lengths. The Scoundrel moving to second. Hillrise is third. Quadrangle is fourth. Here comes that finish line. Northern Dancer behind two lengths.

CH: That was the call when Northern Dancer crossed the finish line to win the 1964 Kentucky Derby. It was the first time a Canadian born thoroughbred had won the historic race. And Northern Dancer was just getting started. That same year, he went on to win the Preakness Stakes, making him one jewel shy of securing the 1964 American Triple Crown. Then he came home to Canada and won the Queen's Plate for good measure. In 1965, the horse was inducted into Canada's Sports Hall of Fame. 30 years ago today, Northern Dancer was put down after an attack of colic. At the time, former host Michael Enright spoke with jockey Bill Hartack about what made that horse so special.

BILL HARTACK: There was a special story with Northern Dancer because I picked him up late. I picked him up and only rode him one time before the Derby. And the jockey who had been riding him, of course, ended up on Hillrise, who I ended up beating. It was a feeling of great satisfaction to win and then to secure a good mile so late in the season and be able to, you know, accomplish what I wanted to accomplish is to win the Kentucky Derby.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Then after the Derby, you had to look to the Preakness and Hillrise, was, I guess, your biggest threat there.

BILL HARTACK: Yeah. Hillrise was also the favourite. Again, they couldn't believe that Northern Dancer was good enough to beat him. So even though the race was a little bit shorter over in the Preakness, they I'm not mistaken, they still made Hillrise, the favourite over Northern Dancer. And of course, he was the underdog again and proved them wrong again. He won again.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Mr. Hartack, why was the Dancer such a great horse? What made him a great racehorse?

BILL HARTACK: It's kind of a fluke because he didn't have the physical confirmation that you would like a horse to have to be a good distance horse because he was kind of a short couple horse. He looked more like a quarter horse than he did a distance horse by most standards. He was a little chunky horse. And I think what made him good was the fact that he was a very honest and willing horse, naturally had to have the ability and was able to stretch himself to the extent that he could go further than what his confirmation really looked to be able to do.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: When you were up on the Dancer, did you get a bit of ribbing from other jockeys about the look of the horse and the fact that it was a Canadian?

BILL HARTACK: No, to be honest with you, I didn't, because he had already established himself as a quality horse even before I rode him.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: It must have been exciting, though, for you to ride him because there weren't many Canadian horses around.

BILL HARTACK: Well, I felt a special privilege of being able to ride a Canadian horse and of course, winning the derby on him put me in the limelight because the press and everything built up the fact that he was a Canadian horse. And I was proud of the fact that I was connected with a little bit of history.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Today, it's not very happy occasion to talk to you, but you must feel a little sad about the dancer today.

BILL HARTACK: Well, I don't really feel a lot of sadness because the horse did lead a full life. I mean, naturally, I hate to see a horse go, anybody does. But when you're dealing with an animal, he was 29 years of age, he reached a ripe old age and he lived a good life and had a good life.

CH: From November 16th, 1990, that was Michael Enright speaking with Northern Dancer's jockey Bill Hartack. The famous Canadian born racehorse, was put down 30 years ago today.

[Music]

Part 3: Hundreds have died from COVID-19 in Texas jails and prisons — some while awaiting trial

COVID deaths Texas jail

Guest: Michele Dietch

CH: Bars and barbed wire are no protection from a virus. A new report looks at the number of infections and deaths from COVID-19 inside prisons and jails in Texas. Researchers have found that more than 230 inmates and staff at correctional facilities in the state have died from the coronavirus. In one prison, almost six percent of the entire population has died. The report also found that most of the people who died were in pretrial detention, so they hadn't even been convicted of a crime. Michele Dietch is a senior lecturer at the LBJ School of Public Affairs. We reached her in Austin.

NK: Ms. Dietch you crunched the numbers, what did you think when you looked at the results?

MICHELE DIETCH: Well, the numbers are shocking on their face, but none of this was really a surprise because at the start of the pandemic, experts had been warning that prisons and jails were going to become petri dishes for the spread of the coronavirus. And our numbers bear that out. There's been a devastating toll.

NK: How do the numbers compare to how many people are not incarcerated are catching COVID-19 in Texas?

MD: Well, people who are in Texas prisons, they are 490 percent greater risk of getting COVID than for not incarcerated populations in Texas. And they're dying at a rate 140 percent higher.

NK: What is it about jails and prisons, particularly in your state, that is making them such fertile breeding grounds for COVID-19?

MD: Well, I think the first issue is definitely the density of these environments. Prisons and jails are very densely populated environments. People live in such close proximity, you know, cells that are small, that have two people in them. You've got dorms that are tightly packed. People are together all the time in day rooms or on lines to take showers or get pills from the pill line or to go to the chow hall to get food. You can't get away from other people and that puts them at tremendous risk. Beyond that, you've got environments that are inherently not very sanitary and people don't have access to hand sanitizer, soap or other hygiene supplies and cleaning supplies. And all of that makes it much more likely that the virus is going to spread.

NK: And there's one facility in particular Ms. Dietch, the Duncan unit that you took a look at, six percent of the entire population there has died -- six percent. Can you tell me about the specifics of that case?

MD: Sure. The Duncan unit is a geriatric facility, so it houses some of the older people who are in custody. So we know that this was going to be a very vulnerable population. But yes, indeed, six percent of the population of this geriatric facility died.

NK: Have you heard any individual stories from prisoners who are inside and experiencing this right now, what it's like for them living with this risk?

MD: Yes, I've gotten a flood of letters over the last eight months from people who are inside. I've heard from a lot of families. We've also talked to the families of a lot of the people who died. So we were familiar with some of the conditions that they've been experiencing. I think that it's a time of real fear for people inside. They can't control their own environments. And many of them feel like sitting ducks. When you know that people on your cell block or in your dormitory are ill, you think it's just a matter of time before you're going to become ill as well. And I think that they feel very limited in their ability to take any precautions. It was a long time before they got masks. The masks were of questionable quality. They don't have hand sanitizer. They really are feeling like they are being, you know, abandoned in their ability to protect themselves.

NK: What do you say to people who might have a hard time sympathizing with prisoners who are experiencing this higher COVID-19 risk?

MD: One lesson that the pandemic has taught us is that there's no bright line between what happens inside our prisons and jails and what's happening in the larger community. What's happening inside, if the virus is spreading inside, it's going to get out into the community and continue those outbreaks and vice versa -- if the outbreaks are in the community, they're going to be coming into the prisons and jails. So even if you don't care about what's happening to the people inside, you should care about the fact that this is going to keep the virus circulating in our communities.

NK: Your research also revealed that a large number of these COVID victims were in jail awaiting trial. They had not been convicted of a crime.

MD: So in Texas, our jails are county-run facilities and our prisons are state-run facilities. In jails, we have a very large pretrial population. And our research found that of the people in jails who died, 80 percent of them were pretrial and not convicted of any offense.

NK: Should they have been incarcerated at all during a pandemic?

MD: That is a really important question. I think that our research has really raised a lot of questions. And for that matter, the virus has revealed a lot of issues that have long been a source of concern for observers. There are a lot of people who are locked up who do not present a current risk to public safety. One of the findings in our report, for example, was that 80 percent of the people who died were over age 55. That's long past most people's crime prone years. So I think that we could be looking to target the elderly population as a group to get out. And that serves two functions -- one, is it's getting them out of harm's way since they are medically vulnerable, but it's also reducing the overall population so it's keeping everyone else safer. We also found that nine people died after they'd been approved for parole, but before they'd been released. So there's people who the parole board has already decided are safe enough to be in our communities. And it's just a matter of speeding up that release process.

NK: As it stands now without any steps being taken with the surge we're seeing across North America of COVID-19 cases and deaths, do you expect the death rate in Texas prisons and jails to go up as well?

MD: Sadly, I do, and I don't think it will be limited to Texas. I think that this is going to be a national phenomenon because there is no bright line between our prisons and jails and the rest of our communities. If the virus is spreading that rapidly and surging in our communities, we can expect to see that follow in our prisons and jails. The numbers are going to be catastrophic if we don't take steps.

NK: Thank you very much for your time today.

MD: Thank you.

CH: Michele Dietch is a senior lecturer at the LBJ School of Public Affairs in Austin, Texas. We requested comment from the Texas Department of Criminal Justice. In an email, a spokesperson noted that most of the inmates who died were elderly and had numerous preexisting conditions. The email also touted the department's testing regime, which the spokesperson says is only one of, "Numerous steps to prevent and mitigate the spread of COVID-19 within correctional facilities." For more on the story, go to our webpage: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Robbie Pierce

CH: Robbie Pierce knew there were many other boys who'd suffered like he had, but he didn't know there were so many, more than 88,000 people have now come forward with sex abuse claims against the Boy Scouts of America. That figure far eclipses the number of victims who filed accusations against the American Catholic Church. The scouts declared bankruptcy in February after thousands of victims came forward with allegations of victims like Mr. Pierce. He says he was 13 years old when he and other boys were touched inappropriately by a Boy Scout summer camp employee during a visit to a medical tent. Robbie Pierce spoke with Carol in February.

ROBBIE PIERCE: When I was done, I went out and one of the other boys went in. And we went back and we didn't talk about what had happened. And it was years before I came to understand just how frightening that was for me and how I had bottled a lot of things up and how it really just did a number on me psychologically. I had thought that what had happened was my fault for a long time. And I didn't understand that it was a thing that had happened to more kids. And it wasn't until up to a year or two ago when I was listening to the radio and heard a story about other victims coming forward that I realized that there were many of us. I didn't even then realize that it was thousands of us. But I knew there were many. And I thought I should add my voice. And so I called the phone number that I heard on the radio. And I understand that there are thousands of us and it really breaks my heart.

CO: I'm so sorry to hear all that.

RP: Thank you.

CO: Right now, though, there is an organization. There are lawyers. There are those who are going to pursue the Boy Scouts of America for what happened to all of you. Many are saying that the Boy Scouts of America, they can't be reformed. This has to be the end. This is not the whole structure -- the whole organization of the scouts just lends itself to this kind of abuse. What do you say to that?

RP: There has to be a way to work with children, to have adults guiding children and and teaching them and helping them to have positive experiences. So I don't believe that nobody could do it. I don't know if the Boy Scouts at this point could do it. If they really were willing to execute a complete overhaul that it will take. They might not be the ones to do it. I think you have lost a lot of public trust even in the last day, even today for this. I have had so many positive formative experiences in the scouting program, but I would trade them all up to get rid of what they did to me or to any of the other boys. So that's what will be decided next through this bankruptcy hearing, is whether they will be able to continue to function under some new parameters or whether they will be done for. And frankly, all I care about is that this doesn't happen to more children.

CH: That was Robbie Pierce speaking with Carol in February. Mr. Pierce is one of more than 88,000 victims who've lodged abuse claims with the Boy Scouts of America. Today is the deadline for victims to file claims as part of the scouts filing for bankruptcy.

[Music]

Humans dogs ticks study

Guest: Laura Backus

CH: Being enclosed in a small box while temperatures creep above 35 degrees Celsius sounds bad enough. Now imagine you're in said box so that scientists can determine how heat influences whether ticks prefer your human blood or dog blood. That's the seemingly horrifying scenario participants in a new study from the University of California, Davis, were subjected to. But lead researcher Laura Backus claims neither humans nor dogs were harmed in the process. We reached Ms. Backus in Davis, California.

NK: So, Laura, I want to talk about how you did this, because I got to say, it sounds a little bit sadistic. So tell me it wasn't as bad as it sounds.

LAURA BACKUS: So I don't think it was as bad as it sounds. And I am a little bit biased because I don't think ticks are as creepy as other people do. But I will say that in this study, we had a barrier between the ticks and the dogs and the humans. The humans sat in the box on one side and the dog sat in the box on the other and the ticks went in the tube in the middle, and there was mesh keeping them from actually getting to the human or the dog. So nobody had ticks crawling on them at any points or anything like that.

NK: The ticks weren't actually able to bite.

LB: Correct. Yep.

NK: Did you spend any time in this box yourself?

LB: I did to make sure that it worked well, I checked the fit. I made sure that it was comfortable to sit in for a good long time, at least 20 minutes to an hour, although I relied on our volunteers to do most of the trials.

NK: How did the ticks preference change as the temperatures rose?

LB: So the brown dog tick, we expect it to prefer dogs and at room temperature, that's what it did. So at about that 73 degrees Fahrenheit, it just it preferred the dog, it would move towards the dog. As the temperature went up to about that 100 degree Fahrenheit mark, the ticks moved much preferred the human significantly more about two and a half times more than it did at room temperature.

NK: Why do you think that happens?

LB: That's a really good question. And there's a lot that we don't know about ticks and why they prefer the hosts that they do. And certainly we don't necessarily know why the temperature made them want humans more. It probably makes them a little bit hungrier and drives them to be moved towards the host a little bit faster when it's hot and dry, because if they're out in hot and dry environments too much, they just won't survive. But it's not clear why they wanted to go towards humans more.

NK: Just to talk a little bit more specifically about the particular tick that you mentioned there, the brown dog tick. It carries a particular type of disease, Rocky Mountain fever. It's also a tick that I'm told will actually live inside houses. So it's not just in tall grasses or out in a forest, as we might be used to.

LB: Yeah, the brown dog tick, it carries Rocky Mountain spotted fever, like you said, which is a really nasty disease. And it can live in houses. It can live in dog kennels. It doesn't sort of hang out on the end of grass waiting for people or deer and dogs to walk by like other ticks do. It likes to hang out close to where we live and hunt us out and dogs. So certainly if you see them in your home or you see them, it's often because you have a dog in your home that's sort of supporting their existence. So tick control for your dog is really, really important. Certainly if you find ticks on your dog removing them. If you live in an area where Rocky Mountain spotted fever is a problem, then it becomes particularly important. But any of the ticks that we find on our dogs can be carrying disease and can spread those disease to humans.

NK: Fortunately for Canadians, the Brown Dog Tick does prefer warmer climates. But what are the takeaways here in terms of other types of ticks and other tick borne illnesses, including Lyme disease?

LB: So I am not an expert in Lyme disease specifically, but certainly Lyme disease affects both humans and dogs, just like Rocky Mountain Spotted fever does. And it is prevalent across many many areas of the United States and Canada. And really prevention at an individual level, so prevention for yourself and keeping your pets on prevention is the best way that person can prevent introducing that disease for themselves or their dogs. So be aware of ticks. Many localities and municipalities have tick reporting programs to where you can collect ticks and submit them. Finding out if those are available in your area is certainly an option as well if you're curious and want to contribute to ticks and science.

NK: And when you say tick management, specifically, what does tick management mean?

LB: So tick prevention on dogs involves typically using something like a collar or a medication monthly medication that will prevent ticks from feeding. And so if they can't feed, they won't transmit disease. And same for humans using tick prevention sprays, that sort of thing, making sure that you're not getting bitten when you're outdoors is really helpful.

NK: How does climate change factor into this? Because I know that's part of your work as well.

LB: Yes, so with climate change, we are expecting that we will see in at least some areas more frequent occurrences of hot weather. And what we showed was that this brown dog tick is more likely to feed on humans and approach humans when it's hot. So if we have more hot weather, more instances of hot weather, we expect that humans are going to be fed on more frequently. The more often we have this tick feeding on humans, the more often we're going to get disease like Rocky Mountain spotted fever transmitted to humans.

NK: Do the ticks pose as much of a threat to the dogs as they do to humans?

LB: So Rocky Mountain spotted fever specifically affects dogs. It causes a wide range of illness in dogs. And sometimes we don't know that dogs have been infected, but dogs can also die of the disease. Humans tend to be affected more severely and it's more likely to be fatal.

NK: Do you think the fact that we're heading into colder weather now, is there some comfort that we can take from that?

LB: There is. Certainly ticks are less likely to be active in that cold weather as long as it is actually getting cold. And that is part of the concern with climate change is that if we have more warm weather, they will stay active longer. And again, I am not an expert across Canada in terms of when the ticks become active and inactive in Canada. But in general in colder weather, at least when it's below freezing, they're less likely to be active.

NK: We will definitely have below freezing temperatures in most of Canada soon enough -- maybe not in Davis, California. But that's something to be thankful for, I guess, as winter approaches. Laura thank you so much for your time. Your research is fascinating. We appreciate it.

LB: Thank you so much for having me.

CH: Laura Backus is a veterinarian and graduate student at the University of California Davis School of Veterinary Medicine. We reached her in Davis, California.

[Music]

Lola Holmes

CH: Lola Holmes is 102 and she is still trying to put rocks in the house. Ms. Holmes has been curling since she was in her 20s. She's curled through the Spanish flu, the Great Depression and now the COVID-19 pandemic. And she kept curling even after carpal tunnel almost put her on the sidelines. Now, Lola Holmes holds the Guinness World Record for continuing to curl at the age of 102 years and 37 days. Ms. Holmes spoke with CBC Vancouver about what that means to her.

LOLA HOLMES: I can't believe it, but I am as happy to accept it and as wonderful. I am very busy with all the phone calls. It's amazing. People calling all the way from England when they see that I'm part of the oldest active curler in the world.

GLORIA MACARENKO: It is amazing. Now, what is it that you love about the game?

LOLA HOLMES: It's good physically and mentally. It's good to be physically fit, to go down and be able to do what I am on the ice. I always played number one lead for all the years since I had carpal tunnel syndrome surgery and was told I can you can't curl any longer that out came the stick and the use of the stick I have had for about six years now and I love it. Took lessons on how to operate it. And socially, it's great you mix with people that you don't always see but, what, twice a week and you enjoy their company over a cup of coffee and a cookie by everyone who bring you something to enjoy after we finish our struggling from 9:30 till 12 o’clock, Mondays and Thursdays.

GLORIA MACARENKO: What kind of advice would you like to give others so we can be so active in our later years?

LOLA HOLMES: Taking interest in something, be interested of anything you want to, but make sure you want to do it. Keep active. Don't give up. I never thought I would ever get to this point. I never even dreamed of it. But I am at this point and I'm very happy to think that I have kept it up and enjoyed it. There's always a little sad part of it -- sometimes losing members, having to be not always there. We were always there our entire time. Take the activity, and make good use of what you feel most comfortable in. So there are three things. Whatever it might be to your fancy. Don't be a couch potato. Please keep moving.

CH: That was Lola Holmes, the world's oldest curler, speaking with Gloria Macarenko host of CBC Vancouver's On the Coast.

[Music]

Kakapo

CH: The world's heaviest and longest living parent has another feather for its cap today. In this year's Fierce Bird of the Year competition in New Zealand, the Kakapo has emerged triumphant. Also known as the mighty moss chicken, the flightless kakapo is green in colour and surprisingly chickeny in shape and size. Every year, the contest inspires high emotion among the electorate. This year there was actual voter fraud and a bird neck and bird neck battle to the finish before the kakapo swooped in, metaphorically, at the last minute to take the title, making it the first ever species to win the competition twice. It's not clear if this quality gave the kakapo an edge, but a spokesperson for the competition describes it as smelling, "Like the inside of a clarinet case." Which is extremely specific and not at all clear to non-clarinet players. Furthermore, that spokesperson says might moss chickens are slow breeders and they nest on the ground. Their main defense is to imitate a shrub, which explains why they're on the brink of extinction. And although kakapo numbers are slowly rising, they're still critically endangered. All of which suggests that in the end, the birds unfortunate failure to fly is what got its winning campaign off the ground.

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November 16, 2020 Episode Transcript

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