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The Current Transcript for November 12, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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He deserves to be here at home with us. So please bring him home.

MATT GALLOWAY: Six months ago, three year old Dylan Ehler went missing while playing in the yard of his grandmother's house in Nova Scotia. He hasn't been seen since. Police say they don't suspect foul play, but since he vanished, his mother and father have been the target of online suspicion, harassment and bullying. In 30 minutes, a look at how what they've gone through on social media could reshape cyber bullying laws across Canada. Also this morning, covid cases are exploding in the United States. And while Donald Trump is focussed on contesting the election result, many observers say a vacuum has opened at the White House.

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That's why today I've named covid-19 Transition Advisory Board to help our transition team translate the Biden hires covid-19 plan into action.

MG: The state of the virus south of the border and what those on the front lines there want to hear from whoever is in charge. But in the wake of last week's vote, a conversation with someone who took charge and connecting the dots between sports protest and politics. The president of the Toronto Raptors, Masai Ujiri. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this The Current.

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Raptors hopeful they'll play in Toronto this season, says team president Masai Ujiri

Guest: Massai Ujiri

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So that's it, that's the ballgame. The Boston Celtics hang on to win game seven.

MG: Still hurts, you know, as if 20-20 wasn't grinding us down enough. Watching the defending championship Raptors lose in game seven to the Celtics was so many of us. Just another lousy moment in what has been a lousy year. Now, with the 2021 season tipping off next month, just as covid-19 second wave intensifies on both sides of the border, the Raptors may not be coming back to Canada for a while. There are also questions about how to keep last season's conversations around issues of racial equality and racial justice going both on and off the court. Masai Ujiri is president of the Toronto Raptors and founder of the non-profit organisation Giants of Africa. It's a basketball youth programme. Masai Ujiri, good morning.

MASAI UJIRI: Good morning, Matt. How are you?

MG: I'm well. It's great to have you back on the programme. And I want to ask you about the upcoming season in a moment. But first, we have just witnessed one of the most polarised elections in the United States in memory. When you take a look at that vote and you take a look at that election, what was at stake for you?

MASAI UJIRI: You know, what is at stake for, for, I think everybody. I think the best way to put it is, um, there was, on Saturday, when Biden spoke, there was a weight lifted off of everybody in, I think not just the United States, but the whole world. I think there was a load, just lifted, there was a sense of bringing people together, a sense of being united and a sense of like just a breath of fresh air in my opinion. And that was very liberating. It was very — everyone I feel, you know, like, well, I know there are some people that didn't feel good about it in the United States, but everybody felt good about it. And that to me is what that election and the last four years has signified in the United States, but not just there, all around the world.

MG: 72 million Americans voted for Donald Trump. And so, I mean, a lot of people felt good about the win. But there are a lot of people who did not want Joe Biden to win. What does that say to you about how divided the United States is?

MASAI UJIRI: Well, it tells you, you know, it tells you what is really going on in the States. I think it tells you that the mixed — I think — opinions on on policies, you know. But if you go, if you want to even go deeper, you know, like it tells you a lot about the second pandemic in the in the world now is racism. And it tells you something about that, you know, like, so I think there is a mixture between that and a mixture of policies. I respect people and I respect their opinion and how they want to be governed or ruled or led. But in my humble opinion, you know, I don't want to be led by somebody that wants to divide people. And that's just my my opinion.

MG: I want to play you something from Saturday. You mentioned Joe Biden's speech. This was what CNN commentator Van Jones said Saturday morning after learning of Joe Biden's win. Have a listen.

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Well, it's easier to be a parent this morning. It's easier to be a dad. It's easier to tell your kids character matters. It matters. Tell them the truth matters. A good person matters. And it's easier for a lot of people, you know, I can't breathe, you know, that wasn't just George Floyd, that was a lot of people that they couldn't breathe. Every day you're waking up and you're getting these tweets and you just don't know. And you're going into the store. And people who have been afraid to show their racism are getting nastier and nastier to you and you're worried about your kids. And this is a big deal for us just to be able to get some peace.

MG: Masai Ujiri, when he says that many Americans, especially black Americans, felt like they couldn't breathe over the past four years, is that something you could relate to?

MASAI UJIRI: Yes, I can. You know, it's it's being polarised now, and I think, you know, racism, it lives, it's there. But if now it's encouraged, you know, by a leader and people can actually kind of come and do stuff without being held accountable. You kind of lie publicly. You can treat people a certain way. It's not right. You know, like so Van Jones was heartfelt that day. We all, everyone I know, every minority felt that in their in their heart and that we want to have a sense of hope that's how we that's how how we want to live in this world. Equality, I think, is so important. There's a reason that every race is born. There is a reason we know like and people should have this freedom, I think, to be ourselves, regardless of what the colour of your skin is. And if you continue to speak and treat people that way as a leader and then, you know, it's a big question for me and it breaks my heart to talk about it. It breaks your heart to to listen to to Van Jones. But you know what? And we all have to fight. We have to speak. We have to talk. We have to challenge who are you as a person, who are you as a leader. And we have to keep going, you know, like you can't back down.

MG: What does leadership mean to you? This is a question that I've asked a number of people. But in this moment, what does leadership mean to you?

MASAI UJIRI: For me, leadership, it simply means, you know, like I think setting a good example and empowering people the right way. I think you have to bring people along. You have to teach people you it's it's it's important for us to speak, to be honest, you know, like to to do the things, I think, by, you have to lead by example. If you come and lie, you tell lies, then to me, how do you wantm how do I want my kids to follow, if I lied to them. How do I want them to follow? You have to bring people together. Doesn't matter where you are a leader, what part of it it is, whether it's a job without a country, whether it's an organisation, whether it's a foundation, whatever it is, you have to bring people together in one way or the other. And we're all going to have faults. We're all going to have weaknesses. But the simple things like telling the truth, you know, like, empowering people and encouraging people. And those things, they're so important, Matt. They're so, so important in this day and age where people need love, they need to be united in one way or the other.

MG: As I said at the introduction, you've taken a leadership role and you took a leadership role in the last season when it came to connecting the dots between what you've been talking about and what you do for a living in sports. The Raptors rolled into that NBA bubble in those Black Lives Matter buses. I was speaking with Nick Nurse, your coach recently, and he talked about the way that players spoke up and why that mattered. Have a listen.

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They gave the players a platform. You know, there is a platform there, obviously, with how much media attention the league has. But they I think they gave it to the players. I think the players were amazing in their voicing their concerns. I think the platforms, again, like like we had very open and candid discussions with our players, nothing to do with basketball, just ideas and how we can make the world a better place, especially in this area.

MG: What was achieved. And when you stand back and take a look at what happened in that season, where players went on strike and threatened to stop the season because of what was going on in the United States, what was achieved, do you think, by the stands that players took?

MASAI UJIRI: I think, Matt, is funny to say, one of the things that was achieved was Biden won. This is simple, said, you know, like votes, you know, like it was one of the main initiatives, you know, like led by a lot of the players. LeBron James. I think the NBA was in the forefront of this, giving the best players and staff, coaches, front office, the ability, you know, like to share their experiences and I think to share them and encourage people. We grew up like these people. These players come from communities. They come from neighbourhoods, they come from states, provinces, that all, you know, want to be united in some kind of way, want to have a voice in some kind of way, want to be equal in some kind of way. So Matt, I think that confined space made a lot of us reflect in an incredible way, brought people together. You know, like I said, that was what was unique about it. And even when you felt frustration, you know, like you felt that there was a fight to fight and there was something, you know, like there was a sense of purpose there. And I think the players were focussed. They had a purpose and there was an honest direction. I I love that about it. And yeah, you are going to get mentally fatigued, you know, like there were times where, you know, the destruction was, you know, like how tired and how this confined space, how are you dealing with it. But on the overall, I think everybody did an incredible job, really, in relating to the whole world, you know, where I think we every everybody's hearts, where everybody's hearts want it to be.

MG: What happens now to to show that that wasn't just a one off, that that that wasn't just a moment. But it becomes, as they say, a movement?

MASAI UJIRI: Well, everybody has continued their part, you know, like and I understand is the off season, you know, and it's what we say about the platform. And playing basketball is the platform the NBA gives. But this is these player's skills and talent has as guiding them to this place. And now they also have to be bring their intellectual. They have to bring their spirit. They have to bring all of this out front now and speak about what's passionate for them. And as it goes on, people continue to build on things that are important to them. We sometimes forget that these players are young, too. They are framing how their minds and how their lives, how everything they are going to do in the future is going to continue to grow. So it was great, I think, stepping stone for them. But trust me, we're not going to be quiet. We're not going to we're not going to hold back. We're not going to stop continue fighting for what's right. We're not going to continue. We're not going to stop talking about racism. And we're going and we'll all the initiatives, everything that we have to do to continue to grow, to give that generations a chance, we will continue to do it, Matt. For us it's very- it's that simple for me. I know with the players, they are determined to continue like this.

MG: You say it's the off season, but the new season is not long away. It starts on the 22nd of December training camp in just a few weeks time. How is this going to work? This is happening in the midst of a pandemic. Cases continue to rise, 120,000 cases or so every single day in the United States. Are the Raptors going to be able to play in Toronto?

MASAI UJIRI: Well, honestly, Matt, that's what we're hoping that our goal is to play here in Toronto. We understand, you know, like how difficult this is. We understand that we we we have to be very sensitive to the pandemic and we respect public health. But we're also a team that is passionate about our community. We're passionate about where we come from, we're passionate about our fans. We're passionate about winning. We're passionate about and giving people a sense of hope. And that's what the game does. That's what the Raptors has done, you know, like the last couple of years. And we feel we're somewhat therapeutic, you know, like to to the to the community.

MG: Do you do you think that athletes should be given exemptions to the rules around travel and quarantine? I mean, you're talking about the benefits there, but do you think that if you want to play in Canada that you should be given some sort of exemption around having to quarantine for 14 days when you cross the border?

MASAI UJIRI: Well, I think, you know, there are I think there are different policies that I think can bring a sense of hope. And we have been responsible, in my opinion, you know, the way the NBA has handled one, we were the first, Matt, to set the example for the world. Nobody else did it. The NBA stopped during the pandemic, not companies, the NBA did it first. And we set the example. Everybody knows that. And then we came back and we responsibly created an incredible bubble. Adam Silver and the Players Association led this and created the most responsible, I think, ways to play. So there's a sense of responsibility for us. Public health and the safety of every individual in this world matters to us. So I don't think it's a case of athletes or privilege or anything, anything like that. We are trying to lead. We are trying to beat this pandemic. We are trying to come back in the best possible way because there's going to be a new normal one way or the other. And we're trying to give people a sense of hope. And that's what we're trying to do. And so we don't we don't look at it and say, OK, hey, give us this because we're privilege or give us this, we want to set an example that gives people a sense of hope. We don't want to take our team to another city, carry families, carry workers, carry other people, you know, like to go to another place. Let us learn here. Let us figure it out here. And yes, we are very sensitive to the to the pandemic. Trust me, we play by the rules. We have and we will establish those rules, those protocols. I think that will be safe for and for the public first.

MG: There's talk that if that doesn't work out, you could end up playing perhaps in Tampa Bay. Is that a likelihood?

MASAI UJIRI: Yes, we have many options. To be honest, you know, like I think we were lucky that the Raptors have become a darling, you know, like, I think hopefully globally, you know, like, well, proud of that. You know, like so and there you can you can name them, whether it's Tampa, Nashville and Louisville, Kansas City, Buffalo, Newark, Fort Lauderdale, there. Everybody wants us to come play, you know, like and while we are on Earth, we are humbled and we're appreciative that everybody wants us to come play in the city. But honestly, like, our main goal is to stay home. You know, we eally want to stay at home.

MG: Just in the last couple of minutes that we have. You talked about hope a couple of times. 2020 has been a really difficult year for all sorts of reasons. And people are tired. People feel ground down by what they've been through. We were — asking over the course of the election — people, what gives them hope? What is it that gives somebody in the midst of this hope? So what gives you hope going forward?

MASAI UJIRI: You know, my kids give me hope, my community gives me hope. I think human beings are just resilient in my opinion, and my sport gives me hope. I just think a sense of people, a sense of when we think back about 2018, bringing the world together here after an incredible championship and knowing that that's possible, knowing those things, happiness is possible, Matt. For me we should never lose sense of sense of that hope. Human beings are so resilient. We should never, ever, you know. That's why we want to set an example to give a sense of hope to everybody, you know, like to make people happy. And I think it's been really difficult mentally. I know it's been difficult for people to live in this space, but we got to keep fighting and we have to keep fighting. And that's that's our job as leaders is to keep going.

MG: It's always great to talk to you, Masai, thank you.

MASAI UJIRI: Thanks, Matt. Thank you so much.

MG: Take care of yourself. Masai Ujiri, president of the Toronto Raptors, talking about hope, the election and more. Your CBC News is up next. And then in six minutes time, we will hear from a family in Nova Scotia. They have been hit by unbearable tragedy over the course of this year. And they're now seeing strangers attack them and make wild accusations on social media. We will talk about what this family has been through, but also how what they have been through could help shape cyber bullying laws across this country. I'm Matt Galloway you're listening to The Current. We're back in six minutes. Stay with us.

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Lawyer for missing N.S. toddler's family hopes cyberbullying law can stop online vitriol against boy's parents

Guests: Ashley Brown, Jasen Ehler, Allison Harris, David Fraser

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, the price Americans are paying from covid-19 as the Trump administration drags its feet on a transition to Joe Biden's White House. But first, a family's tragedy being hashed out on Facebook by strangers.

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VOICE 1: Dylan was at his grandmother's residence on Queen Street, playing outside, his grandmother became briefly distracted and turned around for a moment. And when she turned back, Dylan was no longer in the air. Patrol officers arrived within four minutes of the first call.

VOICE 2: From above and below, dozens of searchers desperately tried to find the missing boy trying to avert yet another tragedy for Nova Scotia. It was not to be.

VOICE 3: The search has shifted into a recovery mission as police...

VOICE 2: Police found first one of his rubber boots in a brook near the home, then the other further down near the mouth of the rushing Salmon River.

MG: It's been six months since toddler Dylan iller, vanished from his grandmother's yard in Nova Scotia, the Truro police chief says there is no evidence that anything suspicious happened to Dylan. The investigation suggests he likely fell into a nearby brook. During all of this, Dylan's parents have had to cope with an added torment. Many people have used social media to accuse them of being responsible for the disappearance. One Facebook page about Dylan has 17000 members. Ashley Brown and Jason Ehler are Dylan's parents. They're hoping a unique Nova Scotia law will help them shut down that online taunting. And they join me now from Halifax. Good morning to you both.

JASON EHLER: Good morning.

ASHLEY BROWN: Good morning.

MG: I'm sorry for what you have both been through. How are you doing?

JASON EHLER: One day at a time.

ASHLEY BROWN: The same. One day at a time.

MG: What do you remember, Jason, about the last morning that you spent with your son?

JASON EHLER: The last morning I spent with my son would have been two days before he went missing. I was rolling them into a pile of bottles. I'd stack them up like bowling, and then I'd use him as the bowling ball. He liked it. That would have been the last afternoon I'd seen him.

ASHLEY BROWN: Actually, tell me a little bit about doing the morning he went missing. We were playing in the morning. We went to Tim Horton's and he got his favourite doughnut, chocolate glazed doughnut. Then I dropped him off at his grandmother's for the afternoon.

MG: What do you want us to know about Dylan?

ASHLEY BROWN: Dylan loves everything. I don't think there's much that Dylan doesn't like. There isn't much that he won't try. His favourite things are dinosaurs playing in the dirt, playing with his sister.

MG: How did you learn, Jason, that Dylan had gone missing?

JASON EHLER: Well, that morning. I was trying to get a hold of Ashley. No response. So I got a hold of Dorothee a messenger. No response. So later on, I decided to drive down and pick them up and cops were there and I got out of the car and boom, I remember the canine officer with his dog coming out. I remember getting the officers to let Ashley's father go get Ashley from Belmont because she didn't even know.

MG: And Ashley, what happened then?

ASHLEY BROWN: My father showed up and he told me that Dillon had gone missing. And we rushed as fast as we could back to my mother's house, Dorothy's house.

MG: Do you remember that drive?

ASHLEY BROWN: It was a very long drive. I couldn't get there fast enough.

MG: When something like this happens, especially in small communities, it feels like a community can come together. And did you feel that community support, Jason, early on in this?

JASON EHLER: I did. There was so many people around, it actually blow your mind.

ASHLEY BROWN: It was really nice to see all the community out trying to look for Dylan. They gave us hope that he was going to be found quickly and that he would be returned to us within a few hours.

MG: How did you cope in those early hours and days? What were you standing on and leaning on, Ashley?

ASHLEY BROWN: The people around me, my family. I was leaning on them and trying to allow the authorities and search and rescue to do their job properly. I leaned on the people around me.

MG: This is a really difficult question, Jason, but what do you think happened to Dylan?

JASON EHLER: I'm right in the middle. I feel like it's possibly could have went into the water, but the debris that is in that brook, it just doesn't make sense. So the other side of it is someone could have tossed them in the water and just took off.

MG: How important is it for you to find out what happened?

JASON EHLER: It's everything to me to find out what happened, because I have to know where he's at. I have to bring him home to his family.

MG: And as you said initially, the community is around you and they're helping you out. And that's that's a big benefit to you. How did you hear about these Facebook pages that were devoted to your son?

ASHLEY BROWN: We didn't really discover them until after the first weekend that Dylan was missing. I think they started off as support groups and then they just changed.

MG: How would you describe that change?

ASHLEY BROWN: More theories about what could have happened to Dylan? You know, I'm mostly saying that, you know, his description didn't make sense. His boot size didn't make sense. That turned into, you know, the parents are lying. You know, we had a hand in in Dylan's disappearance and possibly killed him. I can't say when exactly that started spiralling out of control, but it happened quickly.

MG: Did you look at the pictures yourself?

ASHLEY BROWN: Yes, I was in a couple of the groups for a while. And then we're not anymore because they're full of rumours. And it was hurtful, you know, to think that even some people who should know who I am, they start to feed into it. It's very hurtful.

JASON EHLER: It is. It kind of destroys the person. It made me angry because it was all towards Ashley at first, you know, and then it got even worse, you know, even as far as my parents even falling into it, believing the allegations and the rumours. And there is no words for what is going on.

MG: We had some of our colleagues read some of these Facebook comments. And I know that our producer talked to you about doing this. It's difficult to hear, but I think it's important in some ways if we're talking about what you've been through to hear a little bit of of what was directed at you. So if that's OK, we're going to listen to a little bit of what some of the people have said to you. Is that all right?

JASON EHLER: We're strong.

MG: OK, let's have a listen.

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VOICE 1: It's been my gut feeling since he went missing that the family knows a lot more than they are saying. Please, just think of that little boy.

VOICE 2: If I were a cop I'd nail them.

VOICE 3: Dylan's parents sit home and rehearse all night and day to make sure they get it right. That's when something that's a lie becomes so detailed.

VOICE 4: The parents planted the boots. Imagine the rest.

VOICE 5: The best Dylan's mother could do with scrunch up her chin and make it look like she was about to cry.

VOICE 6: The mother doesn't seem as remorseful as we'd expect.

VOICE 7: The cops know it's the mother, but need evidence. Why Dylan's father so illiterate?

VOICE 8: Jason, I was your biggest supporter and now I'm going to be your worst enemy. If your family has anything to do with Dylan's disappearance, I'm coming for you personally.

VOICE 9: As you can see, Dylan's mother is becoming unravelled now. She must be going crazy wondering when she's going to drop the...

VOICE 10: My kids are saying they haven't been so...

MG: That's really difficult to listen to. How do you wrap your head around what we've just heard?

ASHLEY BROWN: I know that those things aren't true. I know that I love my son. So I have to just push that to the side because I know what's true and what isn't.

JASON EHLER: I get angry, you know, on top of trying to find my son to deal with that, too. Shame on them.

MG: What is it like to live with the suspicion that these comments raise, Ashley?

ASHLEY BROWN: It's hard to go out, you know, thinking that people are judging you, looking at you, talking about you. It's really hard. It's on my mind any time that I go to the grocery store, you know, I try to go to the smaller stores now rather than bigger ones just to kind of protect myself. So I just do what I have to do and live my life.

MG: Allison Harris has been listening to our conversation. She's a lawyer who has taken on your case against cyber bullies and she's done this pro bono. Allison, good morning to you.

ALLISON HARRIS: Good morning.

MG: What do you make of what we've been talking about?

ALLISON HARRIS: I think it's awful. I was shocked and appalled at some of the posts that I read, a lot of the posts I read in speaking with Ashley and Jason and learning about how it's impacting them and just understanding the gravity of it and how widespread it is was eye opening for me.

MG: When you say widespread, I mean, again, we've heard some of the comments. These aren't just a handful of posts that have gone up on Facebook.

ALLISON HARRIS: No. This is many, many people. I mean, I would guess hundreds of people that are making these posts. There are multiple groups across multiple platforms. So this isn't just Facebook. You know, there are YouTube videos. There are other websites. Even just on Facebook, there are more groups than I could count.

MG: Why did you decide that this is a case that you wanted to take on?

ALLISON HARRIS: Because Ashley and Jason and other people in similar situations deserve to have an advocate, deserve to know that they are not alone and that there is something that they can do about this. I also think that as a society, we shouldn't be accepting this behaviour. A lot of these comments, I don't believe would be said in person. So the fact that it's online I think is a societal issue and something that is not going away anytime soon and something that we do need to deal with.

MG: I'd mentioned in the introduction that there is a unique law in Nova Scotia that allows you to go after people in some ways who are who are making these postings and try to protect Ashley and Jason, tell me a little bit about that law.

ALLISON HARRIS: So the law is called the intimate images and. Cyber Protection Act, it was enacted in 2018, it originally arose from [Unintelligible], a young girl in Nova Scotia that was bullied online to the extent that she died by suicide. The original act that was enacted in 2013 was actually struck down as unconstitutional. And then they redraughted the act as it currently stands legally.

MG: What kind of protection would the act offer people like Jason and Ashley?

ALLISON HARRIS: What I'm focussing on in this case are threats, intimidation and menacing conduct online communications that are grossly offensive, indecent or obscene, communications that are harassment and making false allegations. I believe those four things are very much at play in this case.

MG: Is there something about this law as it exists in Nova Scotia that's different than other cyber bullying laws elsewhere in the country?

ALLISON HARRIS: Absolutely. This is the only cyber bullying law in the country. So across Canada, we have legislation, I think Manitoba, Alberta and Ontario have legislation or case law to address sharing of intimate images. It doesn't address cyberbullying as defined in our act. So those things like the threats and the making false allegations and harassing comments, that is not available in other provinces across Canada. It really is unique to this legislation in Nova Scotia.

MG: What is the line between - I'm not sure the legal term would be, but it's not fair comment. But in some ways, somebody's making a comment and somebody making a comment that is threatening or that is harassment?

ALLISON HARRIS: It's a good question. And I think that line is not clear. Part of the problem with this legislation is that there's only been one case decided under it so far. So we really don't know where that line is. You know, we do have freedom of expression, but at some point it does cross a line. And, you know, I would argue that certainly many of these posts do cross that line, in particular when they are making these boldface allegations and accusations. Part of this is an education exercise. We're appealing to people's sense of human decency, hoping that they appreciate the harm that they are causing. And once they recognise that, hoping that they will stop. But under the legislation, we are able to go after individuals who are making these posts and who are messaging Ashley and Jason, privately. And I mean, there's a number of things that the legislation allows, one of which is to request an order that they stop making these posts, that they make no further posts, that they have no further communication with Ashley and Jason, that they take down anything previously. And we can also simply get an order declaring that this is cyber bullying. The act also allows the court to award damages some money for the harm that's caused.

MG: Is that something that you're seeking as well? Damages?

ALLISON HARRIS: I'm really not prepared to talk about what Ashleigh and Jason specifically are seeking or what our next steps are, but those are the options that are available under the legislation and they're all options that are on the table.

MG: If somebody were to say that these messages exist online and if you don't want to see them, don't go on to Facebook. Don't look at the messages. What would you say back?

ALLISON HARRIS: In this case in particular? Ashley and Jason are using social media as a platform for support, which they definitely need in this situation. Also for tips and searching for Dylan. It's not as simple as we'll just we won't look at it.

MG: Are they still up? I mean, you've tried to take this action. Are the posts still there or the messages still being sent?

ALLISON HARRIS: There are a lot of posts that are still there. I think we've had some success in terms of less posts. The positive thing that I've also seen is people that I think were being silent previously that were reading along with this horrific things people were saying are now speaking out in support of Ashley and Jason. I'm also seeing in some of the groups that it actually has died down a lot.

MG: Jason, if you were able to speak directly to the people who are posting this, what would you say to them?

JASON EHLER: I'm angry, so it wouldn't be a very good thing for me to speak face to face with these people.

MG: Fair enough. What about for you, Ashley?

ASHLEY BROWN: I would say that they're making a big negative impact on us and on Dylan. I would ask them to stop. And if they really cared about my son, the way that they go on and say that they do, they'd come and help us stop judging us and come help.

MG: I'm sorry again for everything that you've been through. And I really appreciate you talking to us about this. Jason and Ashley, thank you and, Alison, thank you very much. Jason Ehler and Ashley Brown's three year old. Dylan disappeared last spring from Truro, Nova Scotia, Allison Harris is their lawyer and as she mentioned, it's believed this new Nova Scotia cyber bullying law has been used one time successfully. That case involved a Halifax realtor named Dawna Candelora. She took her estranged husband and his girlfriend to court for relentless online taunts. Downa Candelora says they sometimes posted 40 times a day about her looks, her weight and her job. She won the case in the summer, was awarded 85000 dollars, but it cost her.

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This court case costs me about 45000 dollars plus the hours and time that I took. After my name was printed in the court case I had numerous people reach out to me just to say this is happening to me as well. And now I know I have an avenue. Just get them to stop. So I'm not the only one that this has happened to. I know that it's happening on a daily basis and people are suffering because of it.

MG: David Fraser is a privacy and Internet lawyer in Halifax, and we should probably note that in his practise, David represents social media platforms, including Facebook, but he's not here on their behalf today. David, good morning to you.

DAVID FRASER: Good morning.

MG: We just heard Dawna Candelora say there that it cost her, what, 45000 dollars to fight a cyber bullying case. What do you make of that?

DAVID FRASER: So we've heard previously about the original cyber bullying laws that Nova Scotia past, which allowed for a very speedy mechanism for people to get into court. But it didn't have built in procedural fairness. And so when that law was struck down and they went back to the drawing board, they created a replacement statute that built in what lawyers think of as procedural fairness, but actually made it pretty cumbersome for individuals to get any sort of meaningful remedy. I think the pendulum swung a little bit too far in the other direction. For example, I have not heard of any children who have been victimised by cyber bullying, being able to take advantage of the new legislation.

MG: You describe that initial law as a dumpster fire.

DAVID FRASER: I did. I did. I was the lawyer who represented an adult who was accused of cyber bullying and challenge the challenge, the legislation. And it was ultimately found to be to be unconstitutional. The way that they define cyber bullying was so low that anybody who used electronic communications in a way that just even hurt somebody's feelings or harmed their self-esteem would be cyber bullying.

MG: So what's the definition, then, of cyber bullying in 2020?

DAVID FRASER: Well, in Nova Scotia, it requires that it's an electronic communication, direct or indirect, that causes or is likely to cause harm to another's individual health, wellbeing, where the person who is responsible for the communication maliciously intended - and so there has to be an element of malice in causing that harm or they have to be reckless with regard to it. And I'm incredibly sympathetic to the situation that Jason and Ashley found themselves in. But at the same time, the lawmakers need to be very careful that they're not limiting and penalising expression that shouldn't be. And so when you have a circumstance like this where it's arguable, I don't know whether people have made that argument, but it's arguable that people are in good faith trying to contribute to solving the mystery related to a missing child, that limiting people's ability to do that certainly it violates Section 2B of our charter related to freedom of expression. And the question is always going to be whether or not that limit is justifiable.

MG: Do you believe that the comments that are being made are in good faith? Comments like I wish Dylan's mom would stop using, go fund me and go find him instead? Why Dylan's father so illiterate? If your family has anything to do with Dylan's disappearance, I'm coming for you personally. Are those comments actually in good faith?

DAVID FRASER: I don't think I'm necessarily in a position to figure out what's going on in the heads of the people who wrote that. But certainly that crosses the line for me.

MG: So with those comments like that, I just trying to figure out, I mean, legally with those comments fall under the umbrella of cyber bullying, do you think?

DAVID FRASER: I think certain. Some of them would be, absolutely. But but others might not. Perhaps it will end up in front of a judge who's going to have to make that call and where individuals will will have their day in court as well. The legislation also isn't really well tuned or designed to deal with multiple defendants, it seems like. And this is an attribute of the Internet, kind of generally the Internet can be a wonderful place for kind of rallying positive things, but it can also be an environment in which people brigade that's an expression related to people piling on. We have a large number of people who kind of whip themselves into a into a frenzy and going after a large number of people under this legislation, maybe even more complicated.

MG: Should it be legal to post things like the parents of this young boy might have had something to do with his disappearance?

DAVID FRASER: As I said, I'm incredibly sympathetic to Jason and Ashley, but at the same time that there have been circumstances where parents have caused the death of their child, which I'm not saying is at all the case here right now.

MG: Just to be clear, police have said that there's nothing suspicious, right?

DAVID FRASER: That's right. That's right. But at the same time, people should be able to in the same way that you should be able to report on a story like that, individuals have the same constitutionally protected rights that that CBC reporters do. And so therein lies the challenge where you want to protect individuals like Jason and Ashley but at the same time, you want to make sure that we do have a robust environment in which people can discuss matters of public interest.

MG: Why haven't, do you think, other provinces, given the time that we're in, where people say all sorts of things about all sorts of people online, why haven't other provinces followed the lead of Nova Scotia and put in their own cyber bullying laws?

DAVID FRASER: I'm not sure. I think in a number of instances they think the existing civil justice system provides sufficient remedies. It's a criminal offence to harass somebody and make them fear for their safety. Defamation is that is a tort. And also we've seen that the civil justice system can evolve. So, for example, Ontario doesn't have a statute related to civil remedies for the nonconsensual distribution of intimate images. But the Ontario Superior Court has provided remedies to individuals in those exact circumstances using the existing tort system.

MG: The platforms also have a role, presumably, to play in this. And I know you're not here in connexion with work that you've done, perhaps for Facebook. But if you take a look at a case like this, what is the role of Facebook or other social media platforms in removing or ensuring that those comments aren't posted in the first place?

DAVID FRASER: There are a couple of things that play just generally and to talk about kind of all the platforms together just as it as a category. So many of them are located in the United States where the U.S. First Amendment and freedom of speech is that right is even stronger than we have in Canada. But there's also a desire and I think we've seen evolution, particularly in connexion with elections, for platforms to put in place rules related to conduct on their platforms and reflecting seriously on the sort of behaviour that they're willing to put up with, because in a lot of cases, they can be violations of the terms of service for those platforms. But certainly the platform rules are important. Now, that said, people can delete their accounts and they can create new accounts. And so there are challenges. And at the same time, we've also seen a number of kind of new platforms, particularly associated with the alt right and come into existence, principally because some of their most vociferous proponents have been kind of pushed off conventional platforms like Twitter.

MG: I really appreciate speaking with you, David. Thank you so much.

DAVID FRASER: My pleasure. You take care.

MG: David Fraser is a privacy and technology lawyer. We reached him this morning in Halifax.

MG: Coming up after your regional update, President elect Joe Biden is making moves to tackle a pandemic on day one of his administration, but Donald Trump is refusing to admit that he'll have to vacate the Oval Office, claiming electoral fraud caught in the middle of this. Millions of Americans affected by covid-19. I'm Matt Galloway The Current is back in 90 seconds. Stick around.

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How politics is impeding the pandemic response in the U.S.

Guests: Josh Wingrove, Renae Moch, Dr. Amesh Adalja

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway, you're listening to The Current.

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I think most people realise that this election is over. It's really dangerous. I think in the middle of this pandemic, this economic collapse, people dying across the country to not know if we're going to have a transition. Is the old coronavirus task force going to be making decisions? Is the new one? There's no transition. How long is this going to go on? It's crazy.

MG: That is Maryland's Republican governor Larry Hogan, criticizing President Donald Trump earlier this week as he continues to delay the transition of power to President elect Joe Biden. While the election is over, the pandemic is far from done. Cases continue to soar across the United States. One of the hardest hit states is North Dakota, where infections are occurring at more than six times the national rate Governor Doug Burgum recommends, but is not enforcing mask wearing. In the meantime, a number of cities have tried to introduce their own measures, including the city of Bismarck. And that is where Renae Moch is, the public health director. Renae, good morning.

RENAE MOCH: Good morning.

MG: What has gone so wrong in North Dakota?

RENAE MOCH: Well, there's a long list that I could tell you about from the very beginning, I think everybody started taking things seriously and we kind of got into this mode of, well, maybe this is not going to happen here for us in North Dakota. It's just more of a big city type of thing. And when we re-opened, everybody went back to normal, kind of relaxed their measures for prevention. And our numbers started to increase somewhere around mid-July. And it's been on an upward trend since then.

MG: What are you hearing from your hospitals in Bismarck?

RENAE MOCH: So the hospitals right now are at capacity. We have two hospitals here and both of them have launched their surge plans, so they're looking at opening additional beds space. I know our staff at the hospital level is maxed out at this point. And so they're looking at all options as far as who can work and where. So it's kind of a critical situation at this point.

MG: The governor has announced that health care workers with asymptomatic cases of covid-19 are being asked to continue working in those covid units. What do you make of that?

RENAE MOCH: Yes, I know that is kind of a last resort critical measure that the CDC has when it comes to short staffing types of things. At this point, we've really not implemented any sort of requirements that are being enforced for pandemic mitigation measures. And so pulling out this option for staff to be something to work if they're infectious, asymptomatic and able to work, even if it's with covid patients, is just not- it's not ideal for several reasons. One of the things that I'm concerned about is the ability to spread covid to other parts of the hospital and the other co-workers and people that they're interacting with as they are interacting, even if they're super careful. We all know that people can spread covid when they're asymptomatic. And so just a concerning thing.

MG: You're being very deliberate in your choice of words, saying it's concerning, saying it's not ideal to allow. I think a lot of people it would be outrageous.

RENAE MOCH: Right. Yes, I think that the hospital staff especially are feeling extra fatigued and tired right now and just adding this to the list of possibilities for them to have this option if they're sick, they can't even get a break is. Yes, it's not good.

MG: How are you holding up?

RENAE MOCH: I'm doing OK. I think I'm just trying to do the best that I can as public health director. It's unfortunate to see where we are at this moment in Berkeley County. Of course, we've been working at this for several months and I just keep trying to preach that we need to do something differently. And I'm hoping some of that will stick at some point.

MG: I mentioned in the introduction that the governor is recommending but not enforcing mask wearing. What happened when you tried to implement mask wearing protocols? And this happened in September, I think.

RENAE MOCH: Yes, so, of course, that level of statewide mandate has not been enforced or required across the state, and so a lot of the efforts that we're doing are going to the local level where we have some jurisdiction in our cities and counties. And so we're starting to see several pieces of that come together. But the problem is, is they're all different. So when we put forth a request for a mask mandate that was in September at the Bismarck city commission level, it was just decided basically five to zero to just wait and see and see if we are going to have any additional increases in in numbers and change and kind of focus on public education and personal responsibility. And that was the direction we were given at that point.

MG: What kind of pushback have you seen? I mean, we've seen protests and demonstrations from people saying that they want to wear masks, that wearing a mask is somehow some sort of a political statement or a political imposition. Have you seen those in North Dakota as well?

RENAE MOCH: Yes. Personal liberties and freedoms is a real strong message that we've seen. I know that there's groups put together on social media trying to combat any efforts that local public health is doing and anything that has any requirements attached to it. We had protesting and counter information during our city commission meetings, and it's just been an ongoing issue.

MG: Do you feel as public health director, that anyone listening to you.

RENAE MOCH: Well, I hope that I hope that there are some there's some public health people out there that are supporting us. I know that especially in the last month, we've had a lot more support from the public, from the general public as far as we need mandates and we need mitigation measures to be implemented.

MG: What about from your leadership?

RENAE MOCH: From the leadership, I think I have a city commissioner that is very supportive of public health, but she's just one of one of five. And so we're trying to do as much education as we possibly can at this point to try to educate everybody on that commission to say, you know, now's the time that we can maybe do something more significant.

MG: You're right in the middle of it. I really appreciate you taking some time to talk to us. And I wish you the best of luck. Take care of yourself, Renae. Thank you.

RENAE MOCH: Thank you very much.

MG: Renae Moch is the public health director of Bismarck and Berley County in North Dakota. It is unclear how much attention President Trump is actually giving to covid-19 right now. The primary messaging coming from the White House continues to be his protest over Joe Biden's win. Josh Wingrove is a White House reporter for Bloomberg News. Josh, good morning.

JOSH WINGROVE: Good morning.

MG: Thanks for joining us. We heard about North Dakota paints a picture of covid-19 in the rest of the country right now. What does it look like?

JOSH WINGROVE: In virtually every state, it is in uncontrolled spread, rapid acceleration. They had 152000 cases yesterday. To put that in perspective, a week ago, the U.S. had never cracked 100000 daily cases. They've hit it every day since then. And yesterday's record broke the ones that two days before. Deaths, of course, are a lagging indicator. They are now spiking as well. The U.S. had nearly 2000 people die yesterday from covid, which is the highest since June. And it's getting worse.

MG: Well, how has the White House been dealing with what you say is an uncontrolled spread?

JOSH WINGROVE: It is difficult to overstate how little a public example they're setting. I mean, the president was holding rallies throughout the final days of the campaign. These rallies had almost no masks. People were tightly packed together. The president was telling everyone they would recover. He was touting, you know, experimental treatments that in some cases, you know, aren't available to the general public. He hasn't met, according to Dr. Pouchy, who, of course, was the face of the response early on, he has met with with the task force in months. It's been some time since he spoke with ABC directly. Instead, he's elevated something of a contrarian health adviser, someone who downplays the virus and downplays the use of masks. So really at odds with even his own CDC guidelines, he's just not talking about it.

MG: Help me understand that. Why in the midst of a crisis that is getting worse, that is, as you say, uncontrolled. And is the president not meeting with his coronavirus task force?

JOSH WINGROVE: In part because he punted it to the vice president? It was [unintelligible] a task force. Trump never really just got involved with it. It was up to the vice president, to the vice president, met on Monday. So at least, you know, not something. But Trump is just- he is just downplayed the risk of the virus. There's no kind of other way to say it. He just doesn't believe that it's that big a deal. Even after he got it, you know, even around the White House, around him, we don't have people really wearing masks. His own medical adviser, the day that Trump was hospitalised wasn't wearing a mask at the White House. And the other factor here is that Trump hasn't appeared publicly or at least spoken publicly since last Thursday. It's been a week or so as the wrangling over the election results and his insistence that he somehow will still win. He hasn't really appeared publicly. And that's raised questions over how much work is being done in the background as this drags out.

MG: One of the other elements here that's interesting is that some of the worst hit areas of the country also voted for Donald Trump. What do you make of that?

JOSH WINGROVE: Yes, I mean, you're hearing this in North Dakota, next door in South Dakota, there the governor has become something of a star, sort of a rising Republican star. And she's been on TV, you know, criticizing Democratic governors for their performance and downplaying the situation in her state. You know, we have across the country this is the virus that sort of made it into the smaller communities that didn't really think it was coming to them. The comment from your guest previously put it well, you know, they thought this was a big city problem. So in other words, it's spiking sharply now in the Trump country, if you will. And that really hasn't changed. They seem to change the president's mind. That puts Joe Biden in a bit of a bind. He can't really take the levers of power, of course, until he's inaugurated in January. But one thing he can do is to beg people to wear masks. And he started doing that. And his hope is that Republican governors, Republican mayors and places, you know, Republican counties, which are more likely the ones that are not enacting tougher measures or not making them mandatory, that he can sort of box them out, some states to do it. And if anything, perhaps these skyrocketing numbers will give them some political elbow room. But until now, Republicans have generally avoided enacting these measures other than guys like Hogan, the Maryland governor, who's a bit of a Trump critic. And that's a small group.

MG: But to your point, I mean, yes, Joe Biden, president elect, names this coronavirus task force, but he's not in power until the 20th of January. And the belief from a lot of people is that the time between now and then could be the worst time when it comes to this pandemic.

JOSH WINGROVE: Yes, there we're headed for a triple whammy in the U.S. It gets worse as the winter comes and the weather gets colder and people go indoors, of course. But Thanksgiving and Christmas are poised to be real accelerator events. And one thing that we haven't heard from U.S. authorities yet is clear guidance at the federal level on what Americans should do about Thanksgiving. Most of those public health officials would tell you to stay home. Don't go. Don't even have your kids over to your house. But we haven't really seen that. And so this is actually where rubber will hit the road for Joe Biden, who has said he'll listen to the health experts. But we still haven't heard from Joe Biden on what Americans should do about Thanksgiving, which is coming up here. And that really raises, you know, a scenario where Thanksgiving puts more fuel on a fire that is already raging, accelerated in the, you know, two or three weeks afterwards, leading into the Christmas season, more fuel. Things could look a lot worse, you know, when Joe Biden is sworn in on January 20th, the numbers like 100000 cases a day. You know, a month ago. Difficult to imagine in America now that we're having them every day. So begs the question as to what number will seem normal come January.

MG: How does just finally, how does this uncertain transition period with people not working with each other and apparently not collaborating on, you know, what will happen come January 20th? How does that affect getting anything done by anyone on either team?

JOSH WINGROVE: Joe Biden is downplaying it. I think it's big. It's affected. It is sowing doubt amongst Republican voters in the election result. That is going to put pressure on Republican senators who are poised to keep their majority to treat Joe Biden as an illegitimate president because their voters, their base will believe he is because the president has sort of, you know, muddied the water. And that will make it difficult for Joe Biden to pass anything. I think what there are concerns about the transition in the next two months. The bigger concern is that if you don't think anything is getting done in Washington these next two months, wait for the next two years, because there will not be a lot of incentive for the Republican Senate to do anything. And that that'll tie Joe Biden's hands on a lot of stuff.

MG: Josh, great to talk to you, as always. Thank you.

JOSH WINGROVE: Thank you.

MG: Josh Wingrove is a White House reporter for Bloomberg News. The point where politics and health policy intersect has perhaps never come into sharper focus. As Josh was saying and as we heard from North Dakota during this pandemic, particularly in the United States. And you're seeing that play out right now. Dr. Amesh Adalja is a senior scholar at the Johns Hopkins Centre for Health Security who specialises in emerging infectious diseases and pandemic preparedness. Doctor, good morning.

DR. AMESH ADALJA: Hi. Thanks for having me.

MG: Do you believe that the Trump administration has checked out from this pandemic?

DR. AMESH ADALJA: It sort of appears that way if you look at the president and the activities of the White House task force. But I don't want to kind of give short shrift to all the people that are working hard in operation, warp speed for vaccine development, vaccine delivery, all the people that are working hard in the CDC that that are all part of the administration. It's just that they're not the ones that are seen. But it does seem that the leadership has not the. They're engaged on this topic for some time, but there are a lot of people diligently working whose names, you don't know.

MG: What concerns you the most. And again, there are a lot of people, as you say, whose names we don't know. And we heard from one of them in a state that's been hit particularly hard. But what concerns you the most if the leadership isn't there taking that leadership role?

DR. AMESH ADALJA: The American public sort of gets its cues from the leadership when they see the leadership taking this seriously, showing it to be a priority, they pay attention. And that's something that we sorely lacking for most of this pandemic is a serious attitude from the top leaders of our government. And that trickles down to people not behaving as if we're in a pandemic. And I think that if you look at the way that this pandemic has unfolded in this country, going all the way back to January, it really has been characterised at the highest levels of government by evasion and not taking the right actions and minimising the threats and really just not doing what anybody had had planned to happen in any kind of infectious disease emergency. It's almost the exact opposite of what you would see happen in the way we've done models, the way we've done tabletop exercises in all of the dozens and dozens of reports that we, the people in my field wrote before this pandemic. So I do think that this is really just a dismal failure on our part.

MG: And so what do you make, then, of President elect Joe Biden's coronavirus task force? He put this together before he's in office, said that this will be job number one. What do you make of those initial steps?

DR. AMESH ADALJA: Well, this gives me some confidence that the president elect really sees this as a major priority and a major task that his government is going to have to tackle and that he's thinking ahead of time, trying to have people in place that can go on day one and already thinking about how policies may be different, in which policies need to stay, which policies need to be modified. All of that really is something that is really heartening to see, because we know from we know that if inaction continues and if we continue down the same path, we're going to see more and more hospitals get into trouble. We're going to see them have to ration care. And it's a place that none of us want to be. And it's also going to be something that makes our economy impossible to really restart in any kind of sustainable way. So the fact that President elect Biden is moving fast ahead of time is really something that all Americans, I think the whole world should actually have a lot of confidence in. And it deserves a lot of praise because pandemic preparedness is not something that governments really ever prioritise, is something that's kind of down the list of things. And he's made it. He's talking about that more than he's talking about the Department of Defence or other really big cabinet slots that take the limelight in the first days after an election.

MG: What happens, to Josh's point, if the president elect and his new task force issued directives that are at odds with the wishes of state governors, can they refuse to cooperate with that gum up the system so that despite the best intentions, still nothing is going to be done?

DR. AMESH ADALJA: Governors do have a lot of autonomy in our system, and they can choose to follow guidance or issue their own types of guidance. But I think one of the things that President elect Biden might bring is a different telling, the different seriousness and a different support for the states. You have to remember that the federal government really abdicated its response to this pandemic. Our major asset from a federal standpoint is the Centres for Disease Control and Prevention. And they've been handcuffed basically since February, where they've got political appointees that have infiltrated that organisation and have compromised the ability of the scientists and physicians there to actually give guidance that's not tainted by trying to pander to some political base. So I do think that what you'll see is maybe a different environment there. Maybe some governors should hold out. But then there's, you know, in our system of government, United States, if the governor says if the governor doesn't agree, you have a county commissioner or county executive or a mayor. So you know, in the United States, a lot of our government is very close to the people. So there are ways to go about this, even if you might have a recalcitrant governor by moving to the county level. So there are ways to, I think that they're going to be innovative with trying to get the best practises in place so that we can get control of this. So I don't think it's going to be as big of a problem as it has been in the past.

MG: What about the American people? Ultimately, you need to have buy in and you need to have people believe that the directives are in their best interests and the interests of their friends and their family. Do you think that Americans have the information they need to make informed decisions about this pandemic?

DR. AMESH ADALJA: So far, they probably have not to a large degree, because we've had misinformation and outright lies coming from the president's mouth. So I think that's a very dangerous situation, pretty much unprecedented. But this is all going to change. So you will see proper scientific knowledge and what the facts are being given to the American public after the new administration takes hold. So I think people will have a better access and more trust into the process. And I do think that it's not just these things like mask mandates. It's part of the Biden plan. It's actually a lot more actions that people will start to see the, you know, the light at the end of the tunnel because one of the major pillars is better testing. And I think if you can get people tested, if people can know their status, we can get tests in people's homes. That really changes the way we approach this pandemic. So then it becomes something where people are empowered to have a way to take personal responsibility. They can see it with their own eyes and it gives them a path forward. So I do think that hopefully for the majority of Americans that they will have a lot more confidence in this response and that will cause them to change their behaviour, because that's the most important thing for changing the trajectory of the pandemic, is people's behaviour, because this virus thrives on interactions between people and social interactions. And if we can just get people to to wear face coverings to try and stay six feet apart, wash their hands a lot, avoid crowded and congregated areas, I think it will go a long way to helping our hospitals avoid crisis.

MG: Can I just go back to the mass killing for a second? Because I think a lot of people are still trying to wrap their heads around how wearing a mask became some sort of political football and a partisan issue is having a new president or president elect, is that going to be enough to to diffuse that situation?

DR. AMESH ADALJA: I think it will help because you won't have the president openly mocking people who wear a mask, as President Trump has done multiple times, and you probably will have him setting an example and a model. And you have to remember that we've learnt a lot about this virus from January because many of us, including me in the very beginning, we did not know if people who had no symptoms at all, if wearing a mask would be beneficial because we didn't have the data. But now this is now 10 months later. And there is data that there are many people out there who are very symptomatic, who don't know they're ill or have mild symptoms, that they don't know the real and they're out in the community and wearing a mask, there is a source of control. We always knew if you were sick, if you wore a mask, it would help. But we didn't know if you didn't have any symptoms, if it would work. But that all has changed. And now we're also getting data that wearing a mask also protects the user aware of the map that you get infected with lower quantities of virus, which may influence how sick you get. So this data has emerged so that it's also going to synergize with better public health communication. And unfortunately, in this environment, the fact that the science change has been something that the president has pointed to, as you know, trying to to impugn Dr. Fauci because he changed his view or his view was modified as new evidence came out. But that's what science that's what happens in science. You don't you don't say that Isaac Newton was a bad scientist because Albert Einstein found some new things out and made different conclusions.

MG: Just before I let you go, the inauguration day is the 20th of January. Briefly, what do you think the face of this pandemic will look like in America by that date?

DR. AMESH ADALJA: I would think it's going to probably be pretty a pretty dark winter in the United States. Well, we're going to see hospitals intermittently go into crisis. We're going to hear about ICU shortages. We're going to hear about personal protective equipment problems and nurses being overtaxed and doctors being overtaxed. So I think it's going to be probably not the best scenario. At that time, though, there will be one bright spot is that if the Pfizer vaccine bears itself out, we may be at that time starting to vaccinate health care workers and high risk individuals. So I think we will be starting to see some some benefits as well as the [unintelligible] drug that got approved that can help keep people out of the hospital. But I think that many states like North Dakota from like your previous guest said, it's really going to be and could be in dire straits. But this could all change. I mean, if people actually behaved as if they were in a pandemic, I think we would see a whole different a whole different universe.

MG: Dr. Adalja, it's good to speak with you about this.

DR. AMESH ADALJA: Thank you.

MG: Thanks, Dr. Amesh Adalja is a senior scholar at the Johns Hopkins Centre for Health Security that is The Current for today. Coming up next on CBC Radio, when it's Q Gillian Anderson, a.k.a. Agent Scully of the X Files, speaking to Tom Power, not about the X Files, but about Margaret Thatcher. She plays Margaret Thatcher in the new season of the Crown on Netflix. The trailer looks amazing. We will listen for that coming up on CBC Radio One. I was speaking earlier in the programme with the president for the Raptors Masai Ujiri about racial justice and about leadership and about hope. You can catch that interview if you missed it on the website or on the podcast. One of the things that's different about this year, there are a lot of things, is that scenes from when the Raptors won the championship seem almost unimaginable. Huge crowds of people crammed together in outdoor spaces like Jurassic Park, the watching area outside of the Raptors home court. A lot of people miss that. And so with that in mind and in that spirit and the hope that perhaps we can all get together sometime soon and watch something together. Here is Maestro Fresh Wes featuring Rich Kidd and the tune called Jurassic Park. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. I'll talk to you tomorrow.

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