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The Current Transcript for November 4, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

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US Election Panel

Guests: Sally John, John Fund, Ricky L. Jones

SOUNDCLIP

TRUMP: We were getting ready to win this election. Frankly, we did win this election.

[Cheers]

TRUMP: Our goal now is to ensure the integrity for the good of this nation. This is a very big moment. We want the law to be used in a proper manner. So we'll be going to the U.S. Supreme Court. We want all voting to stop. We will win this. And as far as I'm concerned, we already have won.

BIDEN: Your presence is commendable. We know this is gonna go wrong. We feel good about where we are. We really do.

[Cheers]

BIDEN: I am here to tell you tonight we believe we're on track to win this election.

MATT GALLOWAY: Well, the stakes couldn't be higher with millions of ballots still to be counted in key states like Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. Donald Trump falsely declared early this morning that he'd already recaptured the presidency. Meanwhile, Democratic challenger Joe Biden told his supporters to hold tight. Easier said than done, perhaps with the outcome in the balance. What happens now? And what happens next? In a country still deeply divided. Good morning. Do you get any sleep last night? I Matt Galloway. This is a special edition of The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

[Cheers, Chanting and honking]

I'm here to support our president. I think he's done a fine job. Despite the pandemic, despite it all, he's done an incredible job. He's bringing back the economy. He's brought back jobs. He's fixed our trade deals. He's caring about the American people. No other politician is pair because Donald Trump is not a politician.

MG: Enthusiasm from a Florida voter for Donald Trump on a day when a lot of results are still up in the air. Florida has been cold for the Republicans and the great blue wave that Democrats were hoping for did not materialise. But many swing states have yet to finish counting ballots. And the race, as you've been hearing, is too close to call at this point.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: We love you.

VOICE 2: We love you.

BIDEN: I love you guys.

[Cheering]

BIDEN: Thanks, everybody.

MG: Sound of supporters cheering on Joe Biden as he cast his ballot. Both sides have been saying that this has been one of the most contentious and consequential elections in American history, certainly one of the most fraught. To help us look at what happened and what may be in store in the future, I'm joined by three guests. Sally Kohn is a progressive activist and a political commentator, also the author of the book The Opposite of Hate. John Fund is a columnist with the National Review. And Ricky L. Jones is a professor and chair of the Department of Pan African Studies at the University of Louisville and a contributor to USA Today. Good morning to you all.

GUESTS: Morning. Morning.

MG: John Fund, let's start with you and what we heard at the top, particularly from Donald Trump saying that he'd won the election even though no calls have been made yet. It's not true. What did you think when you heard what Donald Trump said?

JOHN FUND: Donald Trump has signalled he'd be doing this for a long time. We have a process in this country. We should all remain calm. First we count the votes, then if necessary, repeat, count the votes. And then if their disputes or problems with the way the ballots are counted or which ballots will be counted, those go through a court process. And that has taken often several days in this country for Senate races. In this case, it will probably take several days for a presidential race.

MG: Do you see his comments as an attack on democracy?

JOHN FUND: I have seen a lot of candidates declare victory prematurely and a lot of candidates claiming the mantle of victory. I didn't see anything out of the ordinary there. It's typical Donald Trump rhetoric. Did anyone expect anything different?

MG: Sally Kohn, did you see anything out of the ordinary there in terms of what Donald Trump said last night?

SALLY KOHN: If it's not out of the ordinary for Donald Trump. It doesn't mean it's out of the ordinary for our nation. And, you know, this this one thing, I suppose, is very clear. He is a historic president and this is a historic election. I don't mean either as a compliment. He clearly is and has been in the run up, trying to cast doubt on our democratic process, cast doubt on voting and in particular, directly encouraging incite voter suppression. And that is not in any way, shape or form inconsistent with what he said last night. He doubled down on that. It is, however, inconsistent with what this nation at least has always aspired or said it aspires to be, although clearly that's always been in contest as well.

MG: Ricky L. Jones, where do the statements, both of Donald Trump and of Joe Biden leave the election from your perspective at this point?

RICKY L JONES: I mean, I think the election is where people didn't want it to be, but where a lot of us thought it would be for the last four years, we've had a lot of conversations. I think, quite honestly, that scapegoated Donald Trump, said that Donald Trump was some type of outlier or some anomaly or was not representative of America with the reality of the situation is it seems to me that America is Donald Trump and Donald Trump is America with all the nativism, all the lies, all the racism, you know, all these fantasy that this man has given the world for the last four years, you would think that this would be a walk away election for Joe Biden, that he would crush Donald Trump, that people [unintelligible]. But he hasn't beat them up. The race is incredibly, incredibly close. So win or lose for Biden, I think America has some really serious questions to ask itself. What does this say about this country that so many people are still willing to still lend their support to Donald Trump.

MG: Sally, did I hear you in the background agreeing with Ricky?

SALLY KOHN: A hundred thousand percent, if that's possible. You know, I think- Joe Biden said this is a battle for the soul of our nation. And look, let's be clear. He still has a path. I remain optimistic, although, in fairness, less optimistic than I was twelve hours ago. And, you know, part of this is we can and I think we should continue to deconstruct polling and the sort of 24/7 media's, especially in the United States, our interest in, you know, sort of ending the election before people have even voted and how that impacts skews participation, people's idea of election. We should certainly look into disinformation and misinformation and how that may have corrupted the information people vote with. So all of that is true. And, yes, that essential point that, you know, whatever the other outlying factors, a much larger percentage than you know, certainly I would like, to make it personal, support this president. And we'd like to think that is an anomaly. We'd like to think, you know, that the Democrats are thinking a lot of progressives like myself treated Trump as though he is some sort of virus and he's not. He is a symptom of a deeper infection in our nation that is, you know, based on fear mongering, resentment of the other, resentment of change, resentment of notions of equality and transformation. Afraid of, you know, changing and a more diverse and pluralistic nation, amongst other things. And that sort of mobilisation of grievance and resentment is the moment we're in right now.

MG: John Fund, how do you see this? 66 and a half, at least 66 and a half million Americans voted for Donald Trump. And people said on both sides in some ways that this was a referendum on the last four years. He had wins in states that the Democrats are hoping to claim perform better than expected, perhaps in some of those battleground states. How do you see this?

JOHN FUND: We have reached the 12 minute mark of his programme, and I haven't heard a single number until your numbers just now. There is such a thing as an exit poll. And rather than have rhetoric, can we look at the exit poll? Trump did better amongst white women by two points. He did better amongst black men by four points. He did better amongst black women by four points. He did better amongst Latino men by three points. He did better amongst Latino women by three points. He did better amongst Asians by about five points. He did better amongst gays, LGBTQ, et cetera. Now, Donald Trump probably will not win this election at the end. But if we cannot explain to our listeners what happens in a country, if we use only rhetoric and don't explain that rather than a referendum on Donald Trump alone, this was also a referendum on the Democratic Party that a lot of people thought had gone too far to the left. Otherwise, how do you explain these numbers I just cited?

MG: What's going on there then? Is it is it really about people saying-- People were saying that perhaps there's an enthusiasm gap that, you know, Trump supporters are very enthusiastic. I heard one of the commentators this morning saying that his supporters would walk across glass to vote for him and that there is less enthusiasm, perhaps for Joe Biden that this was people voting not for Joe Biden, but against Donald Trump. Is that is that how you see this, John?

JOHN FUND: Well, the white women, black men, black women, Latino men and women didn't stay home. That's what you do when you're not enthusiastic. Trump won more of them than he did in 2016. The polling industry has collapsed in The United States. The polling industry, got this wrong for the second time in a row. We have to look at the mirror at the media and say, how in the world could all of us be so wrong a second time? We have to ask ourselves, what is our responsibility in not understanding the voters.

MG: Ricky L. Jones. The Democrats did frame this as an election that was a referendum on Donald Trump. Did they miss the mood of the country or did they position themselves incorrectly in that referendum?

RICKY L JONES: Well, look, let's be clear. Multiple things can be true simultaneously. So statistics can be deceptive. When you talk about numbers going up by two or three percent when you already have paltry numbers, especially amongst black people, then you're still talking about a measly amount of numbers. So there are a couple of things here. Yes, when the Democratic Party really needs to find its footing on local state levels as well as federally. I think the Democratic Party consistently runs races in this country where, you know, they really don't have a serious agenda and they're simply telling Americans, look, we may be bad, make milksops, but we're better than the guys on the other side. So vote for us, because otherwise it's just absolutely terrible. But let's be very, very clear. The large percentage of people will continue to support Donald Trump and support him in 2016 and support him now. Wwhite man, white women. He gets a paltry number of votes from other demographic in America.

MG: But he won Florida in part because of the Latino vote. I mean, whether they can vote, Venezuelans vote, that's not white people.

RICKY L JONES: Again, once they go. Once they go talking about nationally in this country. Donald Trump's greatest supporters come from white America. Now, are there others. Yes, they're the little wains of the world. You know, there is a sense of the world. You certainly have Cuban Americans of the world who do these things. These are not representative of the large demography, of large demographics and those particular groups. So we still have a serious race problem that plays out. It's played out in 2016. It's playing itself out now as well. But. He said, you know, look at these incredible jumps amongst black men and black women, so that tells you something about Donald Trump's support. I think that's incredibly misleading.

MG: Sally Kohn.

SALLY KOHN: Well, umm, you know, uh...

MG: Which is how I think a lot of people are trying to process the lack of results this morning, but continue.

SALLY KOHN: I could just make those sounds more for about five minutes than that would adequately sum up how I'm feeling. You know, the thing is, it first of all, I think that the you know, one of the larger issues is that we imagined, so again, those of us on the progressive side, when we imagine that when people sort of saw the way that Donald Trump governed right to their sort of Donald Trump as the figure, sort of crass and, you know, explicitly stoking resentment against the other, et cetera. We thought, OK, well, that is disturbing enough that people can embrace that. What does that say about our country? What he actually governs and, you know, he's locking kids up in cages and 240000 Americans dying. People will be disturbed. And so there's a larger issue here about sort of trust in government and what drives people to still support Donald Trump in that moment. I do want to speak to John's point about the Democratic Party. I do think there is an enthusiasm gap here. And it is endlessly shocking to me when people try to frame this as a Democratic Party that has gone too far to the left. First of all, Joe Biden could not have been a more classic out of central casting centrist candidate. And so to say that this was a referendum against- now, Trump, of course, tried to frame him as far left, but that frame doesn't stick on Joe Biden. It can not. I mean, he is the banking candidate from the banking [unintelliglible] of centrism. So now what is true is that this is we are a fundamentally progressive country. When you look at policies from public support and policies from immigration reform to healthcare to Social Security to immigration reform, et cetera, abortion rights, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.What is true, I do think there is a reckoning that has to happen with the Democratic Party. But I don't think it's the same one as Mr. Fund. It is that we see enthusiastic turnout. It is because people feel there is a difference because they see Democrats being bold and leading and standing for something. And I will just finally note that last night the Republican Party actually elected to Congress a extremist conspiracy mongerer who believes that the entire Democratic Party infrastructure is set up around a paedophile ring in a pizza [unintelligible] basement. So to suggest that it's the Democrats who have moved up to one end is ludicrous.

MG: John Fund.

JOHN FUND: Are we really informing listeners with this kind of rhetoric? You know, progressive Senate candidates ran all over the country yesterday. They ran in Maine. They ran in North Carolina. They ran in Georgia. They ran all over this country. And did the Democrats picked up maybe one Senate seat. Maybe they'll even pick up none. So whatever you want to say about Donald Trump versus Joe Biden, who is left and who is crazy, the Senate races and even the House races, dramatically, were more Republican than people expected. So don't just use this as an attack on someone's personality. I don't like Donald Trump either. You have to ask yourself, why did all these progressive candidates for Senate and House lose? Why?

MG: What happens now, John, if Donald Trump does what he says he's going to do when he said that, you know, in the wee small hours this morning, I'm taking this to the Supreme Court. People are waking up this morning wondering what goes on next? What happens now?

JOHN FUND: Well, we go through a process. You know, I lived through 2000 with Bush vs Gore. That was pretty searing. This will be less or onerous. We count all the votes that will take several days because of the pandemic. We have extended deadlines for the arrival of votes in many states like Pennsylvania, which I opposed because of the confusion that we create. And here we are with the confusion. And then we have recounts if the election is close enough and those are mandated by law in most states, and then we have court challenges of procedures or errors or irregularities surface, and then we have a declaration of a winner. Then the Electoral College meets the Electoral College, elects the president. We inaugurated president January 20th. This is not going to be that difficult. It's going to be stressful for some people because they expected a different result. But in the end, we're going to have a president and in the end we'll get along with governing.

MG: Ricky Jones, the president, said that, well, he said he's already won, but also said that he will take it to the Supreme Court, there were a number of voters in the United States who had fears about how this election would turn out and how clear the results would be. Are you concerned at this moment?

RICKY L JONES: No, I mean, I'm not necessarily concerned just because what's going on right now isn't failed at all. And that's not rhetoric. I think just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean they're just using rhetoric and they're not citing facts. We've dealt in this country since the founding of the country with the idea of voter suppression. Remember when America was founded on the property holding white makeable, even when black people were given- when black men were given the vote in 1870, there was still poll taxes, literacy tests, grandfather clock law, these things. No woman in this country could vote until 1920. So somebody strategies have been very sophisticated and veiled. What we're seeing now open a notorious attempt that when Republicans talk a lot about voter fraud in America, there is no voter fraud in America. Voter suppression is real. And right now, you have the president of the United States who openly and notoriously is saying, look, let's not count certain votes, let's throw others out. And so that's not surprising because that's in the playbook of this president, it's in the playbook of this party. I think that is absolutely right. The Democratic Party has to figure things out. And anybody who thinks that the Democratic Party from the presidency all the way down ballot is running of a football field full of progressive, they're simply not paying attention. So I think the Democratic Party needs to fixing things up, but am I worried about it? No, but it shows you what the party is about. And it shows what their supporters are about. And let's see where the country goes as a result of it and how much people will fight back.

MG: Just in the last couple of minutes that we have. Sally, where does the country go in terms of trying to stitch up the divisions that we saw over the course of the campaign, but if you take a look at the results, the country is is a divided one?

SALLY KOHN: Yes, I mean, well, first of all, we have to get through the next few weeks and I do think there have been many practical and moral tests for Republican leadership over the last four years, many of which they failed, in my opinion. I think this will be another test. On paper, it's great to hear Republicans say, yes, we should count every vote. But in practise, you have not only the Trump campaign, but the Republican committee going to court to try to stop votes from being counted, legitimate votes from being counted. Not to mention all of the efforts they were making before the election to suppress and discourage and downright suppress voting. So that is the first test. And I do not trust what can we expect Donald Trump to do? We can expect him to do what he's already done. I can not trust him. We cannot trust him to uphold our democratic practises. So we need a party that will a Republican Party that will legitimately stand by the idea of election integrity and every vote being counted and not allow him to prematurely claim victory or try to cheat the results of the election win to get through that hurdle. Again, there is this deeper fight. Fight is the wrong word. This is a fight. The election's a fight. Whatever happens, there is a reckoning, a conversation that needs to happen as a country. It would be nice if we had a leader. I hope it is Joe Biden in the end. We notice we had a leader who was interested in bringing the country together. I think that's certainly one important step.

MATT GALLOWAY: John Fund, is that possible just in the last few seconds that to have that conversation, that reckoning to bring a country together?

JOHN FUND: The election count is conducted locally in three thousand American counties. The White House doesn't count votes. The White House can't exclude votes. And as for voter suppression, the turnout was over 20 million more than 2016. It was way up in minority communities all over the country. So where is this voter suppression? Can we please get off the rhetoric and actually look at data, data and numbers, which I heard very little of on this programme, sadly.

MG: I appreciate all of you being on the programme this morning. It speaks in many ways to, I think, how fraught the situation is and how there are far more questions than answers as we wake up to the results this morning. Thank you all. Sally. Sally Kohn, progressive activist, political commentator, the author of the book The Opposite of Hate. John Fund, a columnist with the National Review. Ricky L. Jones, professor and chair of the Department of Pan African Studies at the University of Louisville in Kentucky. Your news is next. And then the legal battle that's likely to come after the vote. It's on its way in six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current on CBC Radio One.

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Can Trump take election result directly to Supreme Court? No, but he could win if it gets there: legal expert

Guests: Robert Spitz, Ashton Lattimore, Bob Heleringer, Chris Montana, Shanelle Montana

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

MG: Still to come, we return to voters we met on our road to November drive along the Mississippi River. But first, a vote count that could be going to the courts.

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

This is the worst nightmare of those nine justices on the Supreme Court that I talked to a few of the justices after 2000, and they were very unhappy that they were put in that position. One of the things John Roberts as chief has tried to do is to keep the Supreme Court as out of the politics business as possible. I promise you, none of those nine justices wants to sit there and basically decide who the next president is.

MG: That's FOX News anchor Chris Wallace commenting on the possibility of the presidential race being decided by the Supreme Court. Earlier on Wednesday, Mr. Trump prematurely declared victory in the election and said, we are going to the United States Supreme Court. We want all voting to stop. Robert Spitzer is the distinguished service professor in the Political Science Department at the State University of New York at Cortland. He's the author of 15 books, including The Presidency and the Constitution. Robert Spitzer. Good morning to you.

ROBERT SPITZER: Good to be with you today.

MG: Were you surprised that the president declared victory while we're still waiting for many states to actually declare a clear winner?

MG: No, I was not. Trump has made clear now for weeks in various ways that he would declare victory as soon as he was able, as soon as it looked like states were going his way, regardless of whether that was the final result or not and Trump was then going to make claims of fraud, when vote totals began to change. Of course, we've seen the pattern in a number of states where the initial total favoured the Republicans, because the first votes counted in many places were the in-person votes cast on election day. And then as you're counting mail-in ballots, which tend to be cast more by Democrats, the totals begin to change in favour of Biden, the Democrat. So none of this is a surprise and it certainly is consistent with how he has behaved as president. He said, and these are his words: "We are going to the United States Supreme Court. We want all voting to stop." There are, as you mentioned, millions of mail-in votes still to be counted. Is there anything that could stop those votes from being counted?

ROBERT SPITZER: Conceivably, yes, but it depends on which votes and where. The president, first of all, has no ability to simply drop a case in the laps of the members of the Supreme Court and say, resolve this in my favour, because that's not how the legal system works. If there is a legal challenge to votes, first, there has to be a live case or controversy, some basis for bringing an action to the court. Secondly, even though it's a federal election, the elections are administered by the states. So the initial appeal would be to a state court, not the federal courts. And assuming the state courts take a case, and then rule and then the ruling is appealed. It could make its way to the federal courts and then to the Supreme Court, perhaps under expedited review. But those are a lot of ifs and so far there have been no charges of fraud or mishandling of ballots. It's simply taking longer because roughly 60 per cent of all the votes cast in this election in the U.S. were cast by mail, one way or another. So it just takes extra time and we probably will have a fair, much more accurate number within the next couple of days of what's going on in these states that have not yet reported final totals.

MG: You're already hearing state leaders and people within the government architecture of various states saying that every vote counts, count every vote. They're saying that that's what they're going to do, and that would lead you to believe that it's in their hands in many ways.

ROBERT SPITZER: That is correct. That is correct. And when you look at the states where the final totals have not yet been reported, there are several states that seem like they will be going to Joe Biden. I mean, we don't know that for a fact, but just based on the information available and based on polling results, although the polls clearly overestimated Democratic vote it seems nationwide, although we don't know that to a certainty till the all the ballots are counted. And so I think Trump must be concerned that when the tallies are announced from the states that have not reported final totals, that it will go against Trump. And that is part of what his frenetic commentary about the election seems to stem from.

MG: He has appointed three conservative justices to the Supreme Court, of course, most recently and controversially, Amy Coney Barrett. Does this help him if this case eventually moves, ultimately moves to the Supreme Court?

ROBERT SPITZER: Yes, it does. I don't think there's any question but that the three justices President Trump appointed are extremely conservative. They have a loyalty to him, just ideologically. And also the three justices all participated in the disputed election of 2000 and argued vehemently in a variety of forums and worked aggressively to get George W. Bush elected. And to some degree, using questionable tactics. So these are The three most recent justices are veterans of the 2000 disputed election. And frankly, I think it's clear to me that there are five votes of the nine-member Supreme Court to uphold Trump on virtually any claim that might have a shred of credibility that gets there. But that doesn't mean that there is a justiciable question. It doesn't mean that there is any legal basis to bring a suit. And there's got to be some fundamental, important legal question for this to come to the Supreme Court. But I think if a case gets there, I can readily see five justices siding with Trump in anything that would seem to have any shred of legitimacy on the part of any appeal brought by Trump.

MG: Just before I let you go, what's the timeframe that we're looking at here and how long does he have to make his case but also, when do you think we would actually see a winner declared?

ROBERT SPITZER: In terms of when a case might be brought, it just depends on the facts of the case. Obviously the legal process can take weeks or even months. Presumably, if the courts receive and decide to hear a case, they would expedite review and move things along because there are some hard deadlines coming up in the weeks ahead. But I think we will really pretty much know the outcome of this race by the end of this week, by Friday. The one state that is lagging behind the others in terms of counting is Pennsylvania, which is a very important swing state. And their counting is simply slower. But the election may not hinge on Pennsylvania. We probably will have results, final results from Arizona, Nevada, Wisconsin, Michigan, and if those states go to Biden, then I believe the election will go to Biden as well. But we've got to see, and let the state officials do their work. And I will say that the counting has been very calm, very orderly. I think people have a high regard for the system outside of the White House.

MG: Patience is a virtue. It's just too difficult to to wrap your head around it sometimes when people want immediate results. Robert Spitzer, appreciate your time this morning. Thank you.

ROBERT SPITZER: Sure. Good to speak with you.

MG: Robert Spitzer, distinguished service professor in political science department at the State University of New York at Cortland, and the author of, amongst other books, The Presidency and the Constitution. Ashton Lattimore is a former lawyer and the editor in chief at Prison. It's a BIPAC led non-profit. News outlets started in 2019. We've reached her in Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania, a state that, as we've been talking about, was expected to be pivotal in today's outcome. And good morning to you.

ASHTON LATTIMORE: Morning. Good to be here with you, Matt.

MG: Did you get any sleep last night?

ASHTON LATTIMORE: Very, very little. I woke up about an hour after I went to sleep and started kind of doing scrolling Twitter again. So, you know.

MG: There are a lot of people who are doing that, in part because they're trying to figure out what happened and where we're going. How close is this race in your state in Pennsylvania?

ASHTON LATTIMORE: It's hard to say how close it is in Pennsylvania right now. You know, we have all of our mail in ballots, weren't able to start being counted until 7:00 a.m. yesterday, you know, by design of the Republican led legislature here so that we won't know really for a few days out how things are. But I think what with so many outstanding, we do at least know that the vast majority of Bryn Mawr votes are leaning toward Joe Biden.

MG: So, you know, we'll think the representatives in Philadelphia are just saying now that it would be, in their words, some time before the results come in. As a black woman, what was it like watching last night's results?

ASHTON LATTIMORE: You know itself quite a bit like 2016. Just that sense of hope fading to dread by the end of the night. And just seeing things take the turn that they did. I can't say it was terribly surprising. This election in many ways was a referendum on white supremacy. And to see so many of my fellow citizens come out and say, yes, I think white supremacy is OK, has been disheartening, but I can't say that it's something that I didn't expect.

MG: Does that reduce it down- people who might say that that reduces the election down to too fine of a point, that there were a lot of things that were at play in the midst of a pandemic. There's an economy that's in tatters. The behaviour of the president, certainly. Why would you say that it was a referendum on white supremacy?

ASHTON LATTIMORE: Largely because the president himself is an unrepentant, open white supremacist. And so many of the policy choices, if you can call them that, that he's made over the course of his handling of the pandemic, the economy and so many of the other issues that you name have have been things that have fallen along racial lines in terms of their impact. You know, this herd immunity strategy that he's trying to push for with regard to COVID is something that's going to allow the coronavirus to continue disproportionately sickening and killing black and brown people across the country. Black and brown folks, especially women, have been the hardest hit by the economic downturn that's been associated with with the pandemic and with the lack of relief that come from the federal government. So, you know, certainly there are a lot of issues at play. But I think the president's white supremacy is certainly a central figure in the way that he has governed and I think the way that people have responded to him.

MG: How then do you explain the fact that at least 66 and a half million Americans voted for him?

ASHTON LATTIMORE: Well, I think America is America. And, you know, our country is what it is. Our history is what it is. And we've seen kind of time and again that identity politics, even though they're frame frequently is something that shows up amongst black voters, brown voters, women, there is a very strong read of white identity politics that flows through our country and shows up frequently in our elections. I mean the president that has no chance of winning at this point. It looks like the popular vote but what he is able to win is an overwhelming majority of white men and a significant majority of white women. So if those are the folks who are swinging this election in his direction, kind of against the will of the rest of the country, I think it's incumbent upon us to look at those facts and kind of name them for what they are.

MG: Square that with what happened this summer when we saw people out on the streets across your country and elsewhere around the world saying black lives matter, protesting anti black racism. How does that square then with what you're saying and what you are seeing in terms of the results, such as they are of the election?

ASHTON LATTIMORE: I think it's not too difficult to square, I think to some extent, those are different groups of folks, the folks who are in the streets this summer and know protesting quite rightfully, saying Black Lives Matter, I think are just fundamentally a different subset of people than the who's really showing up amid these election results. And at the same time, I think you have seen a downswing in support for the Black Lives Matter movement in polling just amongst white people in this country. So to some extent, at least for a subset of the population, this summer may have been a moment. It may have been a flash point. Not to say that's the case for the people who are the movement leaders who've been committed to this work. But for some subset of the people who showed up in the streets, this may have been something to do, you know, one time or something to do at the moment. But, you know, by the time it came time to show up, back and about at the polling place and people kind of swung back to where they started.

MG: Just before I let you go, we are seeing last week in the lead up to the vote that voting in some ways is like this act of hope that you mark a ballot kind of hoping where your country will go where on this morning are you finding hope?

ASHTON LATTIMORE: Finding hope this morning are actually in the cities. The city of Philadelphia, Detroit. You know, the cities in Michigan and the places in Arizona, the places where people of colour have turned out so strongly and have, at least it looks like, you know, been able to turn their states in the right direction. It's the default defect of our electoral system that it comes down to these individual kind of state results. But it's really been heartening to see the energy, the activism that has driven up the vote amongst people of colour and stands at least a chance of turning things around.

MG: Ashton, good to speak with you this morning. Thank you.

ASHTON LATTIMORE: Thank you.

MG: Ashton Lattimore is a former lawyer and the editor in chief at prison. It's BIPOC non-profit news outlets started in 2019. She was in Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania. Bob Heleringer is a former Republican state representative in Kentucky. We met virtually as we travelled through that state on our Road to November road trip series. He is in Louisville this morning. Bob, good morning to you.

BOB HELERINGER: Yes, sir. Good morning.

MG: How are you feeling this morning?

BOB HELERINGER: I'm feeling great. I'm feeling a lot better than I did 24 hours ago at this time. I'll tell you that we had a great night in Kentucky. Of course, Mitch McConnell was overwhelmingly re-elected. Trump carried Kentucky handily, as everyone predicted accurately. We picked up a tremendous number of legislative seats, including two here in Jefferson County that were threatened because of the so-called slate of Republican white, educated women. They came back home. So we were feeling great. And if we can get the president across the border by the end of the day or the next two days, it'll be. I don't know, a tremendous force.

MG: You voted for Donald Trump in 2016, you voted for him again this year, and yet you told me that you're not a fan of the president. Can you walk us, just briefly explain that?

BOB HELERINGER: Well, as I explained the last time we met, I have some issues with his personality is when he digresses into, you know, his particular characteristics as a as a person. I have issues with that. But but as I also said the last time we met, I certainly support his tax policy, what he's done with the courts, regulations. I think the economy is going to pick up a lot better with him in office than a Democrat administration or a Democrat Congress that would promise to roll all that back, increased taxes, increased regulation, the new green deal, which will be terribly expensive for Kentucky. So I'm very supportive of the agenda. I just, you know, like a lot of people, a lot of Republicans even have some misgivings and wish he would act a little more presidential from time to time. I'll put it that way.

MG: I don't know whether you saw his speech in the middle of the night last night, but people wonder that whether that was presidential falsely saying that he'd won the race, already announcing saying he'd take it to the Supreme Court. Does that concern you?

BOB HELERINGER: No, I don't. You know, I think something a little more measured would have been in order. But, you know, people are keyed up. I've been a candidate. Nobody that hasn't been a candidate, even for something as lowly as the state legislature can know that feeling, that intensity, that adrenaline. And I wish you would have come out and said, you know, it's going to be a long night, long couple of nights and hang in there. And I appreciate the 66 million so far that have voted for me. And let's count all the votes. So. But anyway, I understand his feeling. If it could have been worded a little better.

MG: When we spoke last talked about how divided the country is and you said how disappointed you were about the partisan and the polarised nature of politics in your country just finally waking up this morning. Do you see any hope in that polarisation ending?

BOB HELERINGER: Well, there's little rays of sunlight as opposed to your previous person you interviewed who I think she said it was a victory for white man or something like that. I you know, I take heart from this president made great inroads in Florida and it looks like in Nevada with Hispanic communities. I'd be interested to see really the African-American vote in some areas. He's done a lot for them in the economy. And so there is some inroads that are being made to kind of address these differences. Again, it's his rhetoric sometimes that gets in the way of those efforts, as is his record is great. And then he has to kind of go off the rails a little bit. And that's what I think that could be more effective if the message followed the record. And the next time he calls me, I'll be glad to tell him.

MG: I'm sure you will. Bob, I appreciate you taking our call this morning. It's good to speak with you again. Thank you.

BOB HELERINGER: All right. Thank you very much.

MG: Bob Heleringer, former Republican state representative in Kentucky. He was in Louisville this morning. We met him first on our Road to November road series where we took a trip, virtually, sadly, down the Mississippi River speaking with voters. We kicked that trip off in Minneapolis, Minnesota, and that is where Chris and Shanelle Montana run du Nord craft spirits. They are both back with us this morning as well. Good morning to you both.

CHRIS MONTANA: Good morning.

SHANELLE MONTANA: Good morning.

MG: Chris. We'll start with you. How are you feeling this morning about the results so far in this election?

CHRIS MONTANA: I'm feeling pretty good, as it happens. I'm a Biden supporter. Shouldn't shock anybody. And I think we're going to do pretty well. I think that once if we just relax a little bit and let the votes get counted, it's going to be a good night or week.

MG: Good night or week. Shanelle, do you share that that optimism?

SHANELLE MONTANA: I think I'm a little bit more cautious. I'm feeding off of my husband's optimism, but I'm cautiously optimistic. I have a little bit of PTSD from 2016.

MG: We spoke a few months back. Both of you said that you were going to vote for Joe Biden. Is that how things ended up Shanelle?

SHANELLE MONTANA: Yes, that's correct.

MG: And same for you, Chris.

CHRIS MONTANA: Yes.

MG: Was that a vote for Joe Biden or was it a vote against Donald Trump? We've been talking about enthusiasm and whether perhaps the enthusiasm of Democrat voters was overstated for Joe Biden, whether people perhaps, you know, undervalued the enthusiasm that Donald Trump's supporters had so far. Chris, for you. Was that a vote for Joe Biden or was it against Donald Trump?

CHRIS MONTANA: I think it's a vote largely against Donald Trump, which if anyone follows American politics, that's how it always works in these elections. It's always a referendum on the president. And, you know, this expand your question a little bit, but I've been listening to the past couple folks that you've had on here. And I just want to throw something out there because I think that in a way, if you just listen to the last five or 10 minutes, you get what's wrong in this country. And what embarrasses me about the United State politics right now. I don't comes from a Republican family. I come from a very liberal family. I've got an opportunity to listen to what I consider rational Republicans. And I don't think that they're necessarily racist because they vote for this guy. I also think that he is the worst president that we've ever had. But what we've done is we've gotten to this place where everyone's a demon if you're on the other side and no one even has friends on the other side of the aisle. And it's frankly embarrassing. I don't think that the 66 million people who voted for this guy did so purely because they value white supremacy, pulled a ton of Latino voters. What does that say about them? I think it's because they like his policy. You take him at their at their word that they like, you know, lower taxes and want to pack the courts. That's what he did. That said, I think that if we re-elect this man as a country, then we've basically turned over the soul of our country because character matters. But it's not so black and white. You know, the real world is shades of grey.

MG: Shanelle, what happens if two cursus point you aren't listening to each other? This has been theme in many ways of our road trip in which we talked to people about, you know, what was at stake for them. And in so many of them said that they were concerned about the lack of civility, the lack of a willingness to listen to each other. What happens if you don't listen to each other?

SHANELLE MONTANA: I think we dehumanise each other? We look at each other as just the other and lump that entire group into a negative space instead of really looking at them as people, as people who have concerns and issues and challenges in their life. And that's what's happening. And unfortunately, I think that that is a largely because of how we're getting our media and information right now. You know, I try to spend a couple hours every so often listening really intently to Fox News and to [unintelligible], these conservative organisations that really are telling a completely different story about where the U.S. is and then other media outlets. And if that was your news source, your sense of reality would be completely skewed. And I think that that's leading to this huge divide between American.

MG: And for you doing that, listening to those other sources just allows you to try and stitch that gap together a little bit.

SHANELLE MONTANA: Yes, yes. And you try to be able to connect with that population again because they are receiving a completely different story than I might be if I might change what is now considered, quote unquote, the mainstream media.

MG: Chris, we just have a few seconds left. Is that easier said than done? To listen to each other at a time when it's easier to yell than listen?

CHRIS MONTANA: Absolutely. I mean, the problem with the American public generally. You can blame it on media. I mean, it's got nothing to do with the media just gives you what you want. It's that we've become lazy. It's kind of hard work to sit down with somebody who disagrees with you and actually talk through things. It's a lot easier to just have someone, you know, agree with you aggressively and then surround yourself with those people. And we've just become lazy. I'm hoping while Biden's not the most exciting person in the world and a milquetoast, but I'm hoping that we can just, one, establish the civility again, so that way there is a place, a space, where people can talk. Whether or not that happens, who knows but I hope we get back.

MG: We'll take your optimism. I'm glad we had the chance to talk to you both again. Thank you. Thank you. Chris and Shanelle Montana Run du Nord Craft Spirits in Minneapolis, Minnesota. We're back in 90 seconds after your regional update with more. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current on CBC Radio One.

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Young voters call for unity as U.S. presidential election results hang in limbo

Guests: Bruce Heyman, Deja Foxx, Alex Schramkowski

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. This U.S. election is being watched by people in countries right around the world, but nowhere perhaps more closely than here in Canada. Bruce Heyman was the U.S. ambassador to Canada from 2014 until 2017. He is the co-author of the memoir The Art of Diplomacy Strengthening the Canada U.S. Relationship in Times of Uncertainty. Bruce Heyman is in Aspen, Colorado this morning. Bruce Heyman, good morning to you.

BRUCE HEYMAN: Good morning, Matt.

MG: As you watch the election results come in last night and indeed as they trickle in this morning, what's been going through your mind?

BRUCE HEYMAN: Oh, my gosh. The wave of emotions. Let's start with freaking out. Thoughts there would be a wave. No wave. Now, is it over? Is it not? What's going to happen? And then now, as I sit here this morning, maybe with the sunlight and a cup of coffee and just breathing. It looks like I think we're on a path that Joe Biden could potentially be the next president. But we have to get all of the ballots counted, regardless of what the president has said. And I'm kind of optimistic this morning.

MG: Let me ask you and that optimism. That's a lot of emotions to run through in the course of 12 hours or so. Let me ask you. Sixty six and a half million Americans at least voted for Donald Trump. You are not one of them. But do you understand why people would vote for him?

BRUCE HEYMAN: So I think what we need to do today is look back now at 2016 and realise that that was actually not an aberration, where I think a lot of people, myself included, said, hey, wait a minute. That's just an average thing. Maybe Hillary wasn't the best candidate. Maybe it was about Donald Trump and, you know, what he was promising and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I think a apology's need to be given to Hillary Clinton this morning. And B, we need to take in the fact that we are a country clearly divided and divided almost exactly in half in terms of political beliefs. And we should understand that that's not going to change next week, next month. And what are we going to do in terms of keeping our country together in this divided moment?

MG: I mean, as the former representative of your country to ours. Help us understand this, because I think there are a lot of people who would say that if this was a referendum on the last four years. But on a pandemic, on any number of issues, personal behaviour, what have you. And we've been talking to Americans, Republicans, Democrats, people who are trying to figure it out themselves. How do you understand or how do you explain that support for him?

BRUCE HEYMAN: So this is my own personal view, and I'm sure there are a lot of folks that may be wiser at this than than I am. But I think the gap between the haves and the have nots have been growing wider and wider over a very long period of time. And then you've had this technological change and you've had trade deals which have enabled countries like Mexico and China to actually take plants from the United States. So this combination of all these things have exacerbated this gap. And there are these people who do have less, who are frustrated. They get up every day. They're good Americans. They work hard and yet they make less and they're having a much more difficult time making ends meet. And Republicans and Democrats alike have not been able to deliver for them. And Donald Trump has made what I consider to be outrageous promises. But, you know, look, people want to grab on to something and believe that there is a path there. And unfortunately, some of that deals with he's accusing people of different backgrounds, stealing jobs. He's using language. But this is exciting people. And when that when people are hurting and hungry and not able to make ends meet and not able to provide health care and not able to put food on their table for their children and not able to pay their home rent or mortgage, they're willing to try anything. And so I think we have this gap in America right now. And I think it's unfortunate. I don't think it's going to get any better near-term as covert is hit and technological changes accelerate.

MG: We just heard from two guests in Minneapolis who are talking about - I don't know whether it's a cause or a symptom - the fact that people don't listen to each other. On each side of the aisle there is an unwillingness in some ways not universal, but an unwillingness to hear what the other side is saying. How corrosive is that do think?

BRUCE HEYMAN: So, incredibly. I mean, you know, I wonder that my takeaways from Canada, when I had the beautiful experience of serving as the U.S. ambassador was that two people can look at the exact same thing, see it differently, but yet both be right. And I'm not talking about that crazy dress on the Internet, but I'm talking about concepts and I'm talking about ideas and I'm talking about, you know, things that are important. And the second thing I learnt is never under estimate how important something is to someone else, even though it may not be important to you at all. And so these are the things that I think are needed in America today. And what when I sit here and look, I'm biased and I and I recognise that I in terms of who I'd like to see as president. But if we are as divided as we clearly are, do I want Donald Trump or Joe Biden in the White House on a going forward basis for the next four years? And I think I need somebody who can reach across the aisle and find compromise. Compromise is a strength, not a weakness. And I think he's the right person at the right time for a divided nation. But let's see how those votes go this this next few days and weeks.

MG: If you take a look at the relationship between our two countries, no matter who becomes the president, what's priority number one when it comes to that relationship, do you think?

BRUCE HEYMAN: Trust, honesty and communication.

MG: in the context of that, what what what what should be at the top of the list in terms of issues that need to be resolved?

BRUCE HEYMAN: Pandemic. I think it's clearly, you know, completely out of control in the United States. We've lost 11 hundred lives in less 24 hours. We're running on a now on average of north of 80000 people who are getting infected on a daily basis. And we have some parts of the country where ICUs are full capacity and we haven't even hit winter yet. And there's a reason why the border is closed to non-essential travel because, you know, there isn't the confidence that we won't infect people and we don't have a system. We don't have a standard. We don't have a process to deal with that. That has to be top of the list. And then there are a whole number of things that falls right next to that; economic stimulation, knowing that COVID not gone, it's not disappearing, it's not going away. And we need to protect ourselves and do the things that are necessary to reduce the spread, flatten the curve. And unfortunately, the president and his behaviours, both in language style and his at his rallies, you know, exacerbate the virus. And so, you know, that's the first thing I'd hoped people would come together.

MG: Let me ask about the border. I mean, can Canada and the United States have any semblance of a normal relationship as long as the border is closed?

BRUCE HEYMAN: Well, we have a normal relationship from a commerce perspective. But when your next door neighbours with each other and you say, don't come in my yard and I won't come into your yard. And, you know, I think especially when we used to go over and have beers together and barbecue together and do things together and and and Canadians have homes in the U.S. and Americans have homes in Canada, which we each can't visit. The former U.S. ambassador cannot go to Canada to, you know, share a conversation and a laugh with my dear friends up north. So I think it's hard right now. And what makes it hard is what strengthens a relationship is the communication and togetherness. And and, you know, I think the relationship starts breaking down when you are separated from each other. And the longer we're separated on a casual basis from each other, the longer you start looking over the border and saying, you know what? It's OK. We don't see each other. And it's not OK. We're not moving. You're not moving. We're going to be next door neighbours regardless of party for a very long time. And when this COVID is over, we'll be next door neighbours. And I hope we don't do things over the near term that exacerbate the distance. I'll be at a fine line that the distance between each other.

MG: Just finally, what step or steps would you like to see Ottawa take towards the new administration, no matter who the president happens to be?

BRUCE HEYMAN: Look for paths of a successor early on, in either a Trump administration or a Biden administration. Establish things that we can do together where there aren't differences. And I know there are people that are jumping up and down about, you know, a pipeline or by America or these things. OK, we'll tackle those. But if you want to set the standard, remember, first impressions are lasting impressions when you first meet somebody. The first thing they say is, hey, nice to see you, but, hey, I have a problem with you. And this, this, this. I don't think that works well. And so regardless of the path ahead, I would recommend both sides. Americans and Canadians find paths of agreement come together, put some scores in the board, some successes that we can all embrace both sides. And then let's also sit down and talk about where we have differences of opinion and let's find passed a compromise and get those resolved.

MG: Bruce Heyman is great to speak with you again. Appreciate your time this morning.

BRUCE HEYMAN: Matt and everybody be healthy. Be well. And we're going to get through this election hopefully very soon.

MG: Bruce Heyman is the former U.S. ambassador to Canada. His memoir, The Art of Diplomacy Strengthening the Canada U.S. Relationship in Times of Uncertainty. Well, from diplomats or former diplomats to people who are admittedly partisan, Deja Foxx was the influencer and surrogate strategist for Kamala Harris, his presidential campaign. When Harris was vying for that position, Deja Foxx was the youngest paid staffer on that team and she is in Washington this morning. Deja Foxx. Good morning to you.

DEJA FOXX: Good morning. How are you.

MG: I'm okay. How are you feeling this morning?

DEJA FOXX: I'm holding in there. You know, we knew that this was going to be a long night or maybe a long few days, and I was prepared for that. So waking up, feeling a little bit drained, get ready.

MG: Bruce Heyman kind of charted it felt like a dozen emotions in 12 hours. Walk us through the mood that you were in last night and going into this morning as the polls came in. I mean, what was that like for you watching this unfold?

DEJA FOXX: Well, you know, I kind of have to think back to 2016. In 2016, I was 16 years old and unable to vote and I stayed out canvassing up until the very last moment in my home state of Arizona. And I remember feeling so, so sad as I watched the vote totals come in and feeling so helpless because I hadn't been able to vote. And so this year, I was feeling distinctly more empowered because I had that power to vote, and because I'm working directly on this election still every day making a difference. And, you know, I was fortunate enough to be around co-workers and friends, both virtually and be able to be in community. And so I think having those people around me and knowing that we wouldn't have an answer last night, but that today when we woke up, we would have to fight to count every vote. I kind of haven't had that moment of release yet, but still feel very much in this fight.

MG: MG: What are the results thus far say to you about the state of your country?

DEJA FOXX: I mean, it's so hard to even talk about the results, right. I think the place that I'm in is that we need to count every vote. And I think that even being a debate, the fact that we are fighting about if every vote should be counted, speaks to speaks volumes about this current administration and the state that it has put our country and our democracy in. It should not be a fight that we need to count every vote and that every vote should count.

MG: I don't know whether you heard Bruce Heyman, the former U.S. ambassador to he was trying to wrap his head around and he admits that he's a partisan, wrap his head around the fact that at least 66 and a half million people voted for Donald Trump. If this was a referendum on the president, do you understand why people lined up in numbers greater than they did four years ago to support him?

DEJA FOXX: You know, I can't from personal experience explain why someone would vote the way that they do. But I can say that in America, there are systems of power that Donald Trump upholds that directly benefit a lot of people, particularly white people. And I am on the other end of that, right. I am someone who does not benefit from systems that uphold white supremacy in the same way that white people might. And so when I look at it, and coming from my background, coming from Arizona, right, a state that is a swing state, very important this year, I struggle to understand because I can see my own humanity and I can see the humanity in the folks who Donald Trump has targeted over these past four years. So in that way, no, I will never understand how people could put their own self-interest above that of the humanity and livelihoods and survival of other people.

MG: If he goes on to emerges as the winner when this is all done, will you have to try to to understand that? I mean, people have been talking about just how divided the country is. And I just wonder, after this is done, what the next steps are to try to to bring the country together, such as it could be?

DEJA FOXX: You know, that is sort of the charge of my generation, right? My generation, Gen Z, is inheriting a lot of problems, whether it be the threat of climate change or student loan debt or polarisation and the rise in hate and nationalism, we are inheriting those problems. And you're absolutely right that it is our charge to fix them though we did not start them. And so I don't know what that looks like going for it. I can't say that I have all of the answers. And I think that that is that's a part of that healing process, is that none of us has all of the right answers. But I do believe in the power of storytelling, the power of sharing who we are and how this last four years has impacted us and being able to appeal to that to that empathy and that shared humanity. You know, I think that social media has absolutely increased the ability to share those kinds of story. And that's the work that I've committed myself to, is making sure that we're using social media as a tool to bridge those gaps and to invigorate the expanding electorate but also to bridge the gap between people who may have just never met someone like me who have never heard a story like mine, and in that way, I think we have an opportunity there to bridge some of those gaps.

MG: Can you hang on the line for a minute? We're just I want to bring another guest into the conversation, but I want you to stick around. Do you mind doing that?

DEJA FOXX: Sure.

MG: All right. Yesterday, we were speaking with Alex Schramkowski, who's a law student at Belmont University in Nashville. He's the chairman of the Tennessee College Republican Committee. He's back on the line with us this morning. Alex, good morning to you.

ALEX SCHRAMKOWSI: Good morning. Thank you for having me.

MG: How are you feeling this morning?

ALEX SCHRAMKOWSI: I certainly think I'm a little bit frustrated that we you know, we don't have like I think a lot of other Americans arrive frustrated, too, that we're still waiting on results in a lot of different places. But the night certainly turned out different than I think a lot of both average Americans, but also political professionals thought the night was going to go. It's obviously, a lot closer and a lot tighter of an election than I think anybody was led to believe. It looks like it's gonna come down to some really close races, especially in the presidency. So definitely, it's definitely a test of patience for a lot of people and figuring out when all the votes are counted, which states are going which way. But, yeah, I mean, it's definitely very tight, like you've been saying all morning.

MG: Let me ask you about patients. The president in the wee small hours declared baselessly, people are saying and prematurely, victory -- even though votes are still being counted and then said he'd already won the election and that they would take it to the Supreme Court. What do you make of his comments from early this morning?

ALEX SCHRAMKOWSI: So, I mean, you know, I think that there are still definitely, like you're saying, there are still votes that need to be counted everywhere. Right. We had similar problems with that earlier on in the evening when Fox News, actually, they called the state of Arizona and the governor of the state of Arizona said that maybe we should hold off on calling that state because there were still millions of ballots that need to be counted. And then in that case, that state was going for the former Vice President Biden. So, you know, from my standpoint in the College Republicans organisation, I know we haven't made any sort of calls on anything yet. I think it is going to come down to a pretty tight race. But I think both sides, until they have a clear path to victory, that and until that path starts to narrow, I think both of them are going to continue making statements about how they think that they have a clear path.

MG: Is there danger in Donald Trump's rhetoric when he says he's already won and that you need to stop counting votes?

ALEX SCHRAMKOWSI: You know, I think that there's going to be a lot of posturing about that on both sides. You know, I think that there there's a lot of conversation now about how this could possibly go into the courts. Right. And so if you kind of go back and you look at what happened between the Bush campaign and the Gore campaign, I know a lot of people were talking about how the Gore campaign wished that they had come out with a stronger statement soon. And the Bush campaign did come out with a pretty strong statement immediately. And some people thought that that kind of shifted the public perception about it and how that fought out in the courts. So I'm sure that both sides are going to continue to make very strong statements about it. You know, I mean, from my end, I'm certainly not declaring any sort of victory in the presidential election. But I know a lot of people on the opposite side are also not declaring victory on that yet. But, you know, there are some very clear takeaways from this election already. We see that it's very tight. We see that a vast majority of Americans in some of these swing states are are still voting the way that they did in 2016. And so there's only really been one flip so far, and that's still kind of contested in the state of Arizona. So it's very tight.

MG: One of the other takeaways is just how divided the country is. We were asking people who had voted for Joe Biden why they think that 66 and a half million people might vote for Donald Trump. Why do you think that 68 plus million people would vote for Joe Biden? Can you can you understand their motivation there?

ALEX SCHRAMKOWSI: I certainly can. Yes. It's like the former ambassador was saying. Right. We're clearly living in a very divided moment. And and that divided moment is showing that, you know, even if the White House flips to one side, you know, that the Senate, which everybody thought was potentially going to be a trouble spot for Republicans. By all accounts, it looks like it's going to stay in Republican hands, even though, you know, over hundreds of millions of dollars were spent to try and oust people like the current Senate Majority Leader, Mitch McConnell or Senator Lindsey Graham over in South Carolina. You know, a lot of these places where it looks like things could potentially lean towards Democratic flips. Clearly, that that hasn't happened. And there's clearly a good number of people on both sides who fervently are going to continue to believe that their side is right. And that's going to lead to a very divided next four years.

MG: So what do you want to hear from whoever wins? Of how they would heal those divisions?

Well, I think that should be a top priority, right? I think that there should be a good amount of pressure put into how are we going to bring people together, and especially when you've got a situation where it could go into the courts, where there's certainly a perception that that takes it out of the hands of some people. If it's a litigation issue there, there needs to be a message of unity from whoever ends up being the inevitable victor. And so we'll have to see who that is. But I mean, you know, you look at you look at some of these places, right? I mean, Wisconsin and Michigan are down to the wire. And so, you know, in a place like Tennessee, we went overwhelmingly for the GOP this time around. That didn't really surprise us. We we had an entire congressional delegation re-elected. We had a senator elect now and former Ambassador Bill Hydatid to Japan. So in in our situation, maybe it's not nearly as as tight, but, you know, in some of these other places, there is going to have to be, I think, a good bit of cooperation or at least an attempt at cooperation on both sides to try to come out of this moment.

m: So let me ask you a question just finally, we just have a few minutes left. We're speaking with Dasia Fox earlier. You part of the same generation in many ways. If you could have a socially distanced coffee with Deja this morning, what would you say to her?

ALEX SCHRAMKOWSI: I first of all, I love talking, especially with people who have differing beliefs. I think that's important for our generation. You know, I think that right now I would say that we still need to be counting the votes just as she did it. It's definitely a very tight, very, very tight race. But ultimately, we're going to have to come out of this together as a country. You know, I think that the fact that the Senate might not flip actually might make it a little bit closer to the status quo than a lot of people expected it to be. And maybe that helps with trying to bring people together to say, look, even if the White House does flip in Congress, things haven't changed too much. The House is still very tightly contested. The Senate will probably stay in GOP hands. So, you know what? Where are some places that we can find common ground and how can we move forward? I think that she was incredibly correct in pointing out that our generation is going to inherit a lot of important challenges, especially when it comes to college students. The college debt problem that a lot of Americans are facing is is very large, and that doesn't bode well in an economy that's been hit really hard by the coronavirus.

MG: So she's been listening in. Deja, what would you say? I mean, you say this is the charge of your generation in many ways to try and heal those divides. What would you say to Alex?

BRUCE HEYMAN: =Well, you know, I don't think that the status quo is going to heal, heal these divides. I don't I think that there's radical change that we need as a country and a reckoning with the wrong that has been done to so many people throughout time.nd the ways that success of people like Donald Trump have been built on the backs and the oppression of other people. And so I don't think status quo is going to get us to any kind of healing. I think it takes a radical reckoning. I think it takes some real transparency and it's going to take some individual work by by people and and the work of elected officials. To change those systems. But I don't think the status quo is going to get us there.

MG: Are you optimistic? Are you hopeful about about the idea that there is just the chance for dialogue?

DEJA FOXX: Am I hopeful for the chance for dialogue? I absolutely think there's a lot of conversation happening. Happening, you know, at Thanksgiving. Happening online, in so many different forums. And ultimately, I think we all have the power to make a difference within our personal networks, whether those be our followings online or our families or our friends. Right. And I think that that's where it starts. And that's where I feel optimistic. I feel that there is a lot of ground to be made up within our personal networks and our local communities in terms of dialogue. Right. Like people who go to the same church as us, who eat at the same Thanksgiving table. That's where we can make a difference. I'm not sure that it's going out and talking to someone you've never met and arguing over the issues on Election Day morning. I think it's rather within those personal networks and people who have stake in you, because if they care about you, they'll care about what you care about.

MG: It's been a long night and a long morning. I appreciate you both talking to us this morning. And I hope that the optimism that you share is seised upon. Thank you both.

ALEX SCHRAMKOWSI: Thanks.

DEJA FOXX: Thanks.

MG: Alex Schramkowski, law student. Chairman of the Tennessee College Republican Committee. He was in Nashville, Deja Foxx, as a Democrat. She worked on the Kamala Harris presidential campaign. She was in Washington. That's it for The Current four this morning. Q With Tom, Power is coming up next, of course, as results come in. We're in a bit of an uncertain situation right now. Stay tuned to CBC Radio one as the election continues to unfold. And we'll have UP-TO-DATE coverage throughout the day on the radio and of course, at cbcnews.ca. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. Take care. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

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November 4, 2020 Full Transcript

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