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The Current Transcript for October 23, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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Unpacking the last 2020 U.S. presidential debate

Guests: Amanda Taub, Eugene Scott

SOUNDCLIP

There's been a lot of saving face. Schools have been doing town halls and putting reports together for a long time. So I'm hoping that this time it actually sticks.

MATT GALLOWAY: Is it ever acceptable to use the N-word in a university setting? University of Ottawa professor set off a firestorm after using the racist slur last month in a discussion about reclaiming words. She subsequently said she regretted her actions while some of her fellow professors have supported her, saying this is an issue of academic freedom. In 30 minutes, three students reflect on what this incident says about what it's like to be a black student at a Canadian university in 2020. Also this morning, your thoughts on Jim's closing down, winter weather coming and the prospect of spin classes in the snow. Plus, the boundary crossing banjo player Rhiannon Giddens should be out on tour right now, but for this pandemic.

SOUNDCLIP

You kind of have to find what are the positives at every moment out of every situation because the world doesn't do what you want it to do. And that's actually a good thing sometimes.

MG: In an hour, why she believes her instrument captures the story of America and how she's using music to build bridges in a difficult and divided time. We begin, though, with a kinder, gentler presidential debate. Good morning. Happy Friday. I'm Matt Galloway. And this is The Current.

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SOUNDCLIP

TRUMP: I was in the hospital. I had it and I got better, and I will tell you that I had something that they gave me a therapeutic I guess they would call it. Some people could say it was a cure.

BIDEN: Then he gets out of the hospital and he talks about, oh, don't worry. It's all gonna be over soon. Come on. There's not another serious scientists in the world who thinks it's going to be over soon. He says we're, you know, we're learning to live with it. People are learning to die with it.

MG: It started with a debate over the pandemic and then moved to other issues.

SOUNDCLIP

TRUMP: I've never run. I ran because of you. I'm looking at you now. You're a politician. I ran because of you.

BIDEN: This guy is a dog whistle about as big as a [unintelligible].

TRUMP: It just. Joe, it doesn't work.

BIDEN: I didn't say either of those things.

You certainly did.

[Cross talking].

TRUMP: And then you bring up Wall Street. You shouldn't be bringing up Wall Street because you're the one that takes the money from Wall Street. Not me.

BIDEN: He should have been instead of in a sand trap at his golf course, he should have been negotiating.

TRUMP: You can't do this. We can't keep this country closed.

BIDEN: And I don't look at this in terms of the way he does; blue states and red states. They're all the United States.

TRUMP: But a lot of these kids come out without the parents. They come over through cartels and through coyotes and through gangs.

BIDEN: It's not coyotes didn't bring them over. Their parents were with them. They got separated from their parents. And it makes us a laughing stock and violates every notion of who we are as a nation.

TRUMP: Who built the cages, Joe? Who built the cages?

BIDEN: Let's talk about what we're talking about.

MG: Heated exchanges for sure. But it was a more measured debate last night between President Donald Trump and Democratic challenger Joe Biden. More civil and perhaps more in line with what you'd actually expect in a presidential debate than the last time the two candidates shared the same stage. The election is looming in, what, just 11 days time. Tens of millions of Americans have already cast their ballots. Eugene Scott is a political reporter for The Washington Post. Amanda Taub is a news columnist with The New York Times. They have been watching the debates for us and they're back. Good morning to you both.

AMANDA TAUB: Good morning.

EUGENE SCOTT: Good morning.

MG: Amanda. What did you make of the change in tone this time? The mute button seemed to be in full effect.

AMANDA TAUB: Oh, it was certainly an improvement, but all I could think as I was watching it was, wow, we're really grading on a curve here. You know, the fact that the two candidates managed to have a you know, they were basically constantly bickering through the entire debates, as we could just hear from the clips you just played. It was true that it didn't get as out of control as it did in the first debate. I think that's partly down to the mute button, partly down to Kristen Welker doing a really good job with the moderation. But I think it was still more about conflict and bickering than it was about any actual content that might inform voters.

MG: Eugene Scott, what did you make of the tone of things last night?

EUGENE SCOTT: Well, it was certainly an improvement and part of me wants to believe that it could be because both candidates were aware of how they came off during the first debate and made some changes, but maybe I'm just being hopeful and naive. But the reality is what was very clear, I do believe is that most voters walked away knowing that these two individuals have very different visions for what it is that makes America great and have ideas about how to go about making that happen, that are in great conflict. And so I think ultimately, viewers, we're in a position where they were left have to ask themselves, what do they want and what are they going to do about it?

MG: Who are the most at stake, do you think, last night, Amanda?

AMANDA TAUB: I mean, the country, fair enough, is having you know, I think things are not going great. I think President Trump was the person for whom, you know, the status quo is the worst. The status quo is worse for him than it is for Joe Biden. You know, he's behind in the polls. He is not doing well on the issues that voters care about most, most notably the pandemic. And so I think that he had the most that he could have gained from this debate. I think he probably did not gain it. And I think, you know, probably didn't make a huge difference to Joe Biden's prospects either. But for him, that's less of a significant issue.

MG: Eugene, given those polls and the fact that Donald Trump seems to be trailing in most of the polls, particularly the national polls, but those swing states are very, very close as well. Was he able to capitalise? And we'll talk about some of the specifics, but was he able to capitalise broadly on this last opportunity to speak in front of the American people next to his rival?

EUGENE SCOTT: I think the president actually did something that we don't see him do often, which is, you know, pivot away from his base speech and his approach to connecting with the voters who like him most. And that's important because if he is going to be successful next week or in the next few weeks, it will be because of his ability to when people outside of his base. And I think last night he tried to appeal to them, at least in tone, in terms of ideas. I don't think he was incredibly effective. He's very much a right of where the centre of American voters are. And I don't think he may as compelling of an argument as he may have needed to be as he may have needed to to bring those voters on his side.

MG: This starts with a back and forth on the pandemic. And that's a good place to start, in part because of the scale of what's happening not just in the United States, but around the world. Let's hear a little bit of that exchange.

SOUNDCLIP

TRUMP: I was in for a short period of time and I got better very fast or I wouldn't be here tonight. And now they say I'm immune, whether it's four months or a lifetime. Nobody's been able to say that, but I'm immune. More and more people are getting better. We have a problem. That's a worldwide problem. This is a worldwide problem. But I've been congratulated by the heads of many countries on what we've been able to do.

BIDEN: 220,00 Americans dead. You hear nothing else I say tonight to this, anyone who's responsible for not taking control. In fact, not saying I take no responsibility initially. Anyone is responsible for that many deaths should not remain as president of the United States of America.

MG: Amanda Taub, did the president defend himself effectively in terms of the handling of this pandemic?

AMANDA TAUB: No. And I think that this gets to a broader issue that President Trump has had on the campaign trail, particularly when trying to reach out beyond his base, is that he is not able to make a compelling case based on his actual record of governing. He you know, sometimes he deflects says that things aren't his fault. He very often talks about what happened during the Obama administration. That came up as well during the discussion of immigration and child separation during this debate. He does not seem to be able to make a solid case to the American people that he has done a good enough job governing that they should and trust him with another four years. There certainly are plenty of people in the United States who believe that he has. And there, you know, I think that there certainly are people for whom those answers will be convincing, but they're probably the people who long ago decided that they were going to be voting for him. When it comes to people more in question, I think that that's just not a response that's convincing.

MG: Eugene, there's a there's a weariness and it's not just in the United States, but a weariness around the lockdown's around the potential future lockdown as the president trying to tap into this, talking about his claims that a vaccine is coming. That's, you know, the United States is rounding the corner. He's trying to play this balance between safety restrictions and opening the economy. How do you think that message will play to those voters, as you say, beyond his base that he needs to appeal to?

EUGENE SCOTT: Well, it's going to land on many deaf ears because the president has not made a plan publicly known that ensures that people's safety is prioritised more than stimulating the economy. And people are concerned about their jobs and their economic well-being. But people are even more concerned about their health and they're looking to experts and professionals to provide some type of information that will lead them with the impression that both can be prioritised as well. And the president has not taken the lead on that. And that is one of the things that I believe is behind one of his continued low approval rates this late into the campaign.

MG: Another exchange I want to play, this is from the debate on climate change and the oil industry.

SOUNDCLIP

TRUMP: You closed down the oil industry.

BIDEN: Other way, I would transition from the oil ministry. Yes.

TRUMP: Oh, that's a big statment.

BIDEN: It is a big statement because I would stop.

MODERTATOR: Why would you do that?

BIDEN: Because the oil industry pollutes significantly.

TRUMP: Oh I see, that's a big statement.

BIDEN: Well, if you let me finish the statement, because it has to be replaced by renewable energy over time.

TRUMP: That's maybe the biggest statement in terms of business. That's the bigger statement, because basically what you're saying is he is going to destroy the oil industry.

MODERTATOR: Final question Mr.President.

TRUMP: Will you remember that, Texas? Will remember that Pennsylvania.

MODERTATOR: Ok.

MG: Amanda, is that a risky statement for Joe Biden to say that he would transition from the oil industry, from the oil production to renewable energy? Given how important Texas and Pennsylvania are?

AMANDA TAUB: I think it is a somewhat risky statement. I think that there are a lot of other voters for whom that will be a very appealing statement and for whom, you know, they'll think it probably didn't go far enough. So I think there are risks on both sides of seeming either like to some voters saying too much and to others saying too little. But I think everything that we have seen in polling so far this election suggests that climate change and energy are not hugely salient issues for the voters. That's something that's important to people. It's something that they're thinking about, particularly when we've had these big fires in California and things like that. But it's not the thing that is making them make their final vote decision to the extent that other issues are.

MG: Eugene, did Donald Trump find a wedge there? I mean, he was going after Joe Biden as well on the issue of fracking, saying that Joe Biden had to claim that he wanted to end fracking. Biden said no, but he has said that he would put a stop to fracking. Is that a wedge issue for Donald Trump, a winning issue, do you think?

EUGENE SCOTT: You know, I don't know that it will bring him the the amount of support that he will need to be successful in the states that will help determine the election. The reality is, as controversial as fracking continues to be, it's not a top issue for most voters right now. And perhaps the president could be more effective in his attack during a different period. But when individuals are asking themselves who do they think will be the best leader to respond to issues of a global pandemic, an economic downturn and civic unrest across the nation due to systemic racism, fracking just doesn't rank very high on priority. Yes.

MG: He also said that Joe Biden wanted to mandate construction of buildings with tiny little windows. Do we know what he was talking about there, Eugene?

EUGENE SCOTT: I, I was not sure. I had not heard that attack, you know, fleshed out earlier while following the president's speeches. And so I was left with more questions than answers on that issue.

MG: OK. You mentioned systemic racism. There was a section of the debate on racism and who had done more to help and perhaps cause harm Black Americans. Have a listen.

SOUNDCLIP

TRUMP: Nobody has done more for the black community than Donald Trump, with the exception of Abraham Lincoln. I think I have great relationships with all people. I am the least racist person in this room. Got criminal justice reform done and prison reform and opportunity zones. I took care of black colleges and universities.

BIDEN: Abraham Lincoln, here's one of the most racist persidents we've had in modern history. He poured fuel on every single racist fire. Every single one started off his campaign coming down the escalator saying get rid of those Mexican rapists. He's ban Muslims because they're Muslims. He is moved around and made everything worse across the board.

MG: Eugene Scott, what stood out for you in that section?

EUGENE SCOTT: Well, I think what continues to amaze me, but not surprise me is how the president is doubling down on that talking point, despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of black Americans, according to the most recent Washington Post poll, don't only not agree with the president, but actually believe that he is racists. And so his decision not to stop and say, you know what? My perception of myself appears to be very different from the community that I am speaking about. How can I get on the same page with these individuals? It's just not something that he has actually done. And it doesn't appear to be something that he is going to do in these next few weeks.

MG: The question I wonder, Amanda, I will bring you in a moment. But the question from the moderator was about the talk and the talk is the talk that black parents will give their children about how to interact with law enforcement to keep themselves safe. What did you make of that question, Eugene?

EUGENE SCOTT: Well, I think as a black man who has had multiple conversations with his family, with his parents since my earliest days about my own safety, it's really fascinating to me that this has entered the national conversation all the way to the degree of a presidential election. And it's just a harsh reminder that the issue of police violence against black people is just one that hasn't changed significantly since my 79 year old father was a young boy and how desperate so many communities are for leadership that takes this issue very, very seriously and how we have been left largely empty handed on multiple sides of the aisle. With that being said, we're in a moment where their candidate seems to be taking very different approaches in terms of how they believe they should respond to this issue. And one thing that we do know about President Trump is that overwhelmingly he has been unapologetically supportive of law enforcement when given the opportunity to speak out against this very real issue of police brutality.

MG: Amanda, how we've seen that. I mean, the summer of reckoning is we keep saying and protests, Trond, antiblack racism when it comes to the election itself. How important of an issue is this for, to Eugene's point, the candidates to show some leadership on?

AMANDA TAUB: I think that as a matter of importance to the country, to people's lives and safety, it's incredibly important. I think as a matter of how people will make their decisions about who to vote for, it is probably not at a point where people are going to change their minds. Eugene made the really good point a few minutes ago that we've seen through poll after poll that black Americans do tend to think President Trump is racist. They don't support him. But I think that his answer, his claims, you know, I'm not racist, etc., etc. Those are directed to white voters. Those are directed to white voters to tell them that they don't have to feel bad for voting for him, that they don't have to feel that by voting for him, they might be supporting systemic racism because he's saying, no, no, this is an individual issue. I personally am not racist. And therefore, you don't need to feel bad about casting a ballot for me or feel worried that I am going to make some sort of systemic change in this country that will, you know, redress the serious problems that we have with racism and racial violence.

MG: We are in the homestretch of this race. And something like 48 million Americans have already voted. I asked you both the last time we chatted what you would be watching for in the next few days. And Amanda, you refused to make any predictions because you said that anything could happen. Are things any clearer now?

AMANDA TAUB: You know, I think that we're in kind of the same place we were last time, which is that I suppose there's a narrower window now in which things could happen. Right now we have polls that have been very stable. It's a race in which Joe Biden is ahead by several points, both nationally and in a lot of key states. If that continues through the election, then I think we'll look back and say this was obvious for weeks. But I think we know that we can't predict what is going to happen in the next few days or the next few weeks. So in terms of what I'm looking for, him just, you know, kind of bracing to see if anything big happened buckling up your seat belt.

MG: What about for you, Eugene? I mean, is there anything that we saw last night that would move the needle? As I said, 48 million Americans have already voted that maybe about half of what you might see in terms of people casting a ballot. Is there anything that people saw last night that would could change anything in the remaining 11 days?

EUGENE SCOTT: You know, I tried to find myself, you know, examining this race to the end through the lens of an undecided voter and what are the issues that matter most to them. And, you know, if tone, if character, if personality were some things that you were still on the bubble or fence about regarding President Trump, perhaps last night, his behaviour was, you know, less deplorable or pastor than you may have heard, and that could be beneficial to you. But I highly doubt that most Americans at this point are making a decision based on those things. And so we shall see what happens moving forward after last night.

MG: You wonder is whether there are any undecided voters left?

EUGENE SCOTT: It's just really difficult to understand how, quite frankly, I was watching a focus group last night, and I don't know if these are individuals who have just tuned in very late, but anyone who's been paying attention for the last four years, not only to the presidency, but to themselves, should know where they stand right now.

MG: Let's see what happens, as we say. Buckle up that seat belt. Amanda, thank you. And Eugene, thanks again.

AMANDA TAUB: Thank you.

MG: Eugene Scott, political reporter with The Washington Post. Amanda Taub is a news columnist with The New York Times. Your CBC News is next. And then the conversations happening at Canadian universities about anti black racism. We will hear from three students. But what life is like on campus and what those conversations are in 2020. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. We're back in six minutes. Stay with us.

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Students call for systemic change in wake of N-word controversy at University of Ottawa

Guests: Jamal Koulmiye-Boyce, Priscilla Olawunmi, Laila El Mugammar, Karin Marley

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, the brilliant American banjo player and historian Rhiannan Giddens shares where she's finding hope and optimism these days. We could all use some of that. But first, a long awaited reckoning on Canadian university campuses.

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MG: In September, University of Ottawa Professor Verruca, Lieutenant Duvall used the N-word in full in an online class. She was comparing it to the word queer, which has been reappropriated by LGBTQ communities as a positive word. The incident caused an outcry at the University of Ottawa and divided faculty and students over issues of academic freedom. But there are many people who say this one incident is just one example of the Black experience of Canadian universities and why more needs to be done to address antiblack racism on campuses. Jamal Koulmiye-Boyce, is a fourth year student in conflict studies and human rights economics at the University of Ottawa. Priscilla Olawunmi, is a first year student in Applied Human Nutrition at Mount St. Vincent University in Halifax and previously graduated from the University of Alberta. She is in Edmonton and Laila El Mugammar studies English literature at the University of Guelph, where she is in fourth year. They all join us now. Good morning to you all.

JAMAL KOULMIYE-BOYCE: Good morning.

PRISCILLA OLAWUNMI: Good morning.

LAILA EL MUGAMMAR: Good morning.

MG: Jamal, you're a student at the University of Ottawa. This is where this incident occurred, the N-word used in a class. When you heard about that, what was your immediate reaction?

JAMAL KOULMIYE-BOYCE: To be completely honest. My immediate reaction was one of being just let down, but not surprised. Like you said in your introduction, this is by no means an issue that is new at the University of Ottawa and by no means a new response from students who have been actively organising against these instances of not only just racism, but the lack of a clear response to it from the university's central administration.

MG: And when you say you were let down, I mean, tell me more about that.

JAMAL KOULMIYE-BOYCE: Yeah, I think it's just so I was a student. I was actually carded about a year ago in the summer of 2019. I was arrested on my campus when I was just walking to my office as I was the VP academic for my programme. While walking to my office, I was stopped on my skateboard by campus security to inform me that need to show a piece of I.D. in order to be on campus. Unfortunately, it's been a long day, I did not have my wallet. Upon offering to show them my office, which I had a key to where I was going were only members of the student government can have. They just simply refused. I was immediately criminalised. They escalated the situation and the only safety that I had was to take out my phone, which then I was immediately grabbed, put in handcuffs and then made to sit on the busy streets of University of Ottawa for about two hours with five other security officers, when then I was then handed over to Ottawa police still in handcuffs, who took down my information and subsequently released me when they realised and found that there was absolutely no reason for me to be arrested in the first place. So when I say let down. I say that after that incident, students organized, we released an open letter asking for very clear things. We asked for a policy review, we asked for transparency, accountability, information and representation. All these things went to target anti-Black racism on campus. So then to see another incident so clear, like a professor using the N-word verbatim in class, such a clear issue and not a clear and decisive response from the university to protect BIPOC students, I have to say I'm let down, but not surprised.

MG: Laila, let me bring you into this. The issues around the use of the N-word often get framed as academic freedom, and I don't want to get too deep into that issue of academic freedom. But what do you make of that argument that this is something that, you know, is part of the university experience, if I can put it that way, the issue of academic freedom. And if you're offended by it in some ways that students need to toughen up a little bit, because that's what being presented to them.

LAILA EL MUGAMMAR: So a lot of people have a misconception that university in academia in general is just this free exchange of ideas, every idea has equal merit and they're all just floating around. My question is, why do you need to say the N-word in order to teach effectively? Because you have to have justification in any academic space for any argument you put forward. You can't just say things for the sake of saying them. That would never, ever be accepted in a dissertation or in a classroom discussion, so why are we accepting it here? Why do you need to say the N-word be effective? And the answer is you don't. People feel their freedoms are being infringed upon because they can't say this word. Well, you never say things for the sake of seeing them in academic spaces. And when you do use that word, the message you're sending your students is: I don't care. I don't care how you feel, your welfare is not one of my considerations when I teach this class. I'm not teaching for you. I'm teaching for everyone else. And your presence here is just incidental.

MG: Priscilla, what did what was the message that this incident sent you as a student?

PRISCILLA OLAWUNMI: To me, as a student, it basically told me that this sort of veiled, polite form of racism that is within Canada is sort of getting a push towards more blatant racism that has flowed in from the U.S. We're getting more bold and confident in the way that we express our private views and we feel like we're justified in some people feel that they're justified in saying certain things and not caring about the feelings and thoughts of others. So that was my take on it.

MG: What did the story reveal to you or what does it revealed to us broadly about what it's like to be black on campus in 2020? Priscilla.

PRISCILLA OLAWUNMI: It explained to me that, like, this fight isn't over in terms of our fight for equality within Canada to be seen as fit to seen as equals. Recently- sorry. Just trying to collect my thought.

MG: Yes. No, it's a difficult thing to wrap your head around.

PRISCILLA OLAWUNMI: Yes, definitely. Because I came from a university that our Black Students Association wasn't actually founded until late 2018. It's like my university has been around for years and decades. So the idea that we're just sort of like coming into this era of, oh, we should be more we should be more reflective and more welcoming of a class within our community, that is that has done like great work and is pretty relevant, I feel is of sort of It's just like really sad to see how slow we're progressing in a concept that basically, like slavery didn't really wasn't really over until about like a little bit more than one hundred years ago.

MG: Laila, for you, we heard a little bit of what Jamal went through at the University of Ottawa. And again, if you take this incident, kind of pull back a little bit, what is it like for you to be a black student at the University of Guelph?

PRISCILLA OLAWUNMI: For me, I honestly was a bit more of a homebody, so like I wasn't in a lot of student groups or like really involved in campus, which is something like I regret as of now. And I felt like, to be honest, I was sort of like self policing in the way I carried myself throughout my classes. I was part of a really small programme that where I would see the same people year after year. And there was basically about like two or three black students that I saw in the whole like four and a half years that was there, that were in my programme. And so I found a way. So I don't really I don't think I recognised whether I was experiencing micro-aggressions from other people, because in my mind, I was self policing by not really pushing myself into roles where I could be related to shouting stereotypes like, oh, a dominant black woman is like pushing these people to do like, oh yeah, we need our assignment done by so-and-so. And so, like, I wasn't trying to do that. But now I've tried to be more assertive as I start like a new degree at a unit at a new university. Because like I realised like I realised, like, I have to stop trying to please other people. I'm equally standing to my right to be here.

MG: What about for you, Laila? I mean, again, at the University of Guelph, do you feel as though you are not standing out but but that you feel part of the this is a strange year. So it's tricky to be part of the large student body. But do you feel as though your experience is. Is the university experience or do you feel as though in some ways as a black student, you stand out?

LAILA EL MUGAMMAR: I feel like there is a little bit of a double consciousness that happens where I am a University of Guelph student. I am a golf griffin, but I'm also a black student. And that experience is incredibly distinct. Unlike Priscila, I was actually pretty fortunate to be part of a very long standing golf black student association. I've done some wonderful things on campus. So I've been able to find a sense of community there. But when I'm out and about, when I'm not in our GBSA room, I find it can be at times alienating, very isolating. I've been exoticized and fetishized by my classmates because of my race. I can't say certain things in classroom settings or make certain requests because I'm going to be read as angry.

MG: What do you mean? Connect that back to the idea of being fetishised? What do you mean that you can't say certain things?

LAILA EL MUGAMMAR: So in a classroom. Well, I have an anecdote in a classroom once a classmate was doing a presentation on a text that was written in Ebonics about a dystopian future. And she. Argued that in this text, the dystopian future had affected this black population from Scarboro so horribly that they'd devolved into speaking primitive dialect. Those words. And I was I was appalled. I was hurt. I put my hands up and I explained that it's important that we hear voices, a diverse array of voices when we talk about issues as complex as as dystopia and climate change. And there- was I couldn't say everything I wanted to say there because of the politics of the classroom. She was a white woman. I'm a black woman. I would have been read as angry. It would have been rather as an attack. She would have felt threatened. So I very, very politely deconstructed some of the ideas she was presenting, didn't get any support from anyone in that classroom. And it was I felt like I was the only one who felt that way.

MG: How do you try to change that? Jamal, you started out by speaking about the incidents that you faced on campus. And I just wondering after that, did anything change on the university campus for you in terms of your experience as a black student there?

JAMAL KOULMIYE-BOYCE: I'll say that there definitely was change, but I winter that came from the university central administration. I think the change that occurred personally was the response and the way in which community groups on the University of Campus, specifically in indigenous ones and black indigenous students really rallied together after this issue. I think my issue was so public and really just touched a lot of chords and others have had similar experiences or memes that may not have been as tense, but definitely still as impactful. And I found that since then we've developed a very strong organising body, which includes university by the student union, which includes the Black Student Leaders Association, even our Grad Students Association, as well as professors and other groups. And I think that was just mentioned by Laila is definitely feeling that I feel as well were in class or we're having these topics, it oftentimes falls on us to have to police these conversations to ensure that our identities are still being respected in these. So I even had a very similar experiences where a few days ago in another class, another professor used the N-word, hard E-R, again, while having a conversation about the issues of the other professor using the N-word. And I think the clear issue this presents in having another teacher do it within this same context and climate is that it goes far beyond the individual. So when you're talking about like what is solution, I see the clear issue is that U Ottawa's predominantly white central administration is there being the one to decide who can and can't use this extremely harmful word with a lack of lived experience? And I think this really necessitates the implementation of independent human rights boards within universities across Canada.

MG: But in the action taken in the absence of that, it's on you as the black students to address this, you're saying?

JAMAL KOULMIYE-BOYCE: Yes, I think that really husband and black students, we've continue to do so over the past year. We've continued to like push. We've had a town hall that gave students as well as staff to voice their grievances, to voice their grievances. We've tried to have different conversations and organising around with student bodies, with releasing these open letters on behalf of these large bodies of students to try and push the central administration to take our recommendations seriously. But I just feel that unless until that these recommendations can be implemented systematically by the board with the teeth and power to ensure they're put in, once students like myself and other organising want to leave, we're going to continue to see these issues reoccur every couple years.

LAILA EL MUGAMMAR: Laila, you talked about the experience with a white professor. Have you had many black professors at the University of Guelph?

LAILA EL MUGAMMAR: Well, not many, but the few I've had have had a very significant impact on me, specifically, a professor in the School of English and Theatre Studies, Kate Ferguson, seeing her in the position in academia and making it work made me think, oh, my goodness, she's cracked the code. I need to, like, observe this professor and listen to what she has to say. And she's been able to fight some very significant wisdom on not only what it's like navigating life as a black student, but what it's like navigating life as a black professor, because those same professors that give us grief turn around and give their fellow faculty grief.

MG: What about for you, Priscilla. Have you ever had a similar experience to Layla with a black professor in which you mean you felt a different level of connexion because of who was there at the front of the classroom.

PRISCILLA OLAWUNMI: Yes, absolutely. Throughout my years, I've had about two black professors that really made an impact in my ability to really ask for help when it comes to assignments and really understanding what is being taught. Like, there is a conception that we're like taught and it's ingrained in us. So we have to work twice as hard in order to reach the same place as others. And so we're less inclined necessarily to ask for help because we're like, oh, we should be able to do this by ourselves. So that really. So having a black professor really gave me the confidence I needed to ask for someone for help because they understand the same struggle that I was going through.

MG: Is that, Jamal, how in part you start to address this again? We start speaking about one specific incident, but in many ways it's about how students like yourselves experience life on campus. How important is it to have more black faculty there to change that experience?

JAMAL KOULMIYE-BOYCE: I think it's extremely important and I'm very happy to hear the book pursuing up and also have the experience of the black professors. Unfortunately, I haven't had them myself, but definitely black staff have made a difference for me in University of Ottawa, and professors I haven't had that reached out and we're able to help me navigate these circumstances. I just think one important addition in terms of as me, I try to diversify the staff and university admin is also ensuring that when we are filling positions that are more focussed on [unintelligible] such things, that it's not only that these are having more black staff, which is very important, but also having block staff with the necessary background and anti-racism and decolonisation best practises. So we ensure that we're holistically attacking the system, that a lot perpetuates these racist and colonial practises while also changing the individuals that are there to implement it to have more people with lived experience.

MG: Would you want to see beyond a change in faculty, Laila, at your university at the University of Guelph, to make the experience of black students a better experience?

LAILA EL MUGAMMAR: Well, our university is actually in the process of instituting a black studies minor. So my answer would be change in the institution that it would really be. I would want to see black contributions, black Canadian contributions to our society reflected in in course material in syllabi. I would want to see everyone on campus making invested in effort to combat antiblack racism. And we did actually have a student, Brionna Green [unintelligible], who made a position to create an anti-racism course, a mandatory anti-racism for coming first year. And she succeeded. So that course was attached to everyone's syllabi on our on our digital learning server. Everyone can take a course. It's one hour long, which, you know, we could we could have some things to say about that. But it's a start.

MG: And that's an encouraging start for you.

LAILA EL MUGAMMAR: Yes, absolutely. And again, it started because of Briona, who is a brilliant undergraduate student. She put in the work and she put in labour and she got the results. But she shouldn't have had to. I would like to increase support from the administration for these initiatives, and I would like to see them come up with some initiatives on that.

MG: What about for students? And I'll ask all three of you finally this question, which is, if you were a young black student just beginning their first semester of university and you're hearing this conversation about how welcome or not you are in those spaces. What advice would you give? And Priscilla, are you concerned with that?

PRISCILLA OLAWUNMI: I guess something that someone told me that was really important to me was that this melanin that we have is expensive. And just the fact that we were born into this skin and that we're able to bear the cost of that. And it just goes to show that we are- It just goes to show that we can persevere and we can stand amongst them as long as we get the support that we need.

MG: Jamal, given your experience, what would you say to a young black student who is just beginning their first semester of university?

JAMAL KOULMIYE-BOYCE: I would say, especially at the University of Ottawa, I would say build your community by those around you that will support you. You're going to face difficult situations. You need to have those people and supports around you to help you get through them and not let them get you down. But I would also say it's just like enjoy and take a deep breath. It can be really exhausting having to constantly be fighting these battles, like you said, as we wait for the administration to change it up to students. But I would just want remind them that, like, we're young right now, these are university years and like, don't forget to enjoy your blackness and not always have it be defined by an outside or external gaze.

MG: Laila. What about for you?

LAILA EL MUGAMMAR: I'm echoing what Jamal and Philip had. Find your people. Find your fellow black students and black faculty. And just I know for me, being surrounded by black artists and creatives and intellectuals and brilliant black students like Jamal and Priscilla makes all the difference.

MG: And find that joy as well. I think Jamal's point is really important to me in the news and just, you know, the weight of that can squeeze some of the joy out of you but it's still there around you.

LAILA EL MUGAMMAR: Absolutely. Just keeping resilient. And remember that an active resistance is also joy. Joy is also resisting because in spite of everything you're you're trudging on and you're saying, I reject this and that, what you seem to be happy you're all doing this in the midst of a pandemic.

MG: You have a lot going on. It's not the school year that perhaps you expected. I appreciate you speaking to us this morning. Your experiences are revealing. Thank you.

GUESTS: Thanks for having us.

MG: Jamal Koulmiye-Boyce is a fourth year student in conflict studies and human rights and economics at the University of Ottawa. Priscilla Olawunmi as a first year student in Applied Human Nutrition at Mount St. Vincent University. Previously graduated from the University of Alberta and Laila El Mugammar studies English literature at the University of Guelph, where she is in fourth year. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. My name is Matt Galloway. We have a moment to get to some of your thoughts about a recent story. We were talking yesterday around the importance of exercise and still working out when indoor gyms are closed in many parts of this country because of the pandemic. And cold weather is fast approaching. Like many of you worked up, flexed your fingers, sent us some mail. Karin Marley, senior producer of The Current, is here. Karin, good morning.

KARIN MARLEY: Good morning. Of course, on the day that we're talking about this, it's supposed to be over 20 degrees Celsius here in Toronto. So maybe outdoor exercise delivered today. But parts of the country have been under a beautiful blanket of snow as well. And that brings us to a definite theme to a lot of the e-mails that we got. For example, Cheryl Berube of Eskasoni, Nova Scotia, wrote, I snowsuit during the winter. It's a great workout. And you get fresh air and beautiful landscapes if there's no snow. I just walk.

MG: Excellent. Sticking with that theme, this is one from Brian Joseph of North Sydney, Nova Scotia. Come on, man. It's not that difficult. Grab a pair of cross-country skis or snowshoes. We should say that that last sentence was in all caps, anyway, continuing. It's an inexpensive, accessible, infinitely variable from low to high intensity and just plain fun. Who needs to rely only on gyms for fitness?

KARIN MARLEY: Here is another great letter. You're gonna like this one, Matt. It's from Joanna Baird of Mississauga, Ontario, and she writes, I've been a lifelong hater of running. But at the beginning of October, with prospects for my usual choice of exercise looking grim, I started a running programme in one way. It seemed like an odd time to start, but I know I wouldn't like to run in the heat of the summer. And I reminded myself that it really isn't consistently cold until a lot later than we think. Once I got going, it was fine, even nice. Occasionally I think what will I do when it gets really properly cold? But then I think of the year that I, as a running hater, had to hear constantly about Matt Galloway New Year's resolution of running every day starting in January, speak and think to myself, if I want to do it, I'll make it happen. As was pointed out by the people working out in Winnipeg in the winter, as long as you keep moving, you stay warm. So I figure get moving now and make the transition to the real cold graduate.

MG: We are a winter nation and yes, you need to embrace it. And for me, that was saying that I was going to run every single day rain or snow, and a lot of it was snow and cold. And it's never really as cold as you think it is.

KARIN MARLEY: If you say so.

MG: Once you get moving. Thank you, Karen.

KARIN MARLEY: You're welcome.

MG: Karin Marley, senior producer of The Current. If you want to contact us on anything you hear in this programme, you can reach us through email thecurrent@cbc.ca. You can tweet us @TheCurrentCBC or go to the Web site cbc.ca/thecurrent and click on the contact link. Cross-country skiing season will be here before we know it. Thankfully, coming up after your regional update, the musician Rhiannon Giddens takes us back in time for a bit of history the banjo. She loves this instrument. She'll also talk about why embracing the sometimes difficult and uncontrollable nature of the world right now could be good for you. It's in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current. Stay with us.

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Rhiannon Giddens on making art during a pandemic, and how music bridges divides

Guest: Rhiannon Giddens

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Artists looking to collaborate these days have been forced to get pretty creative. Challenge isn't something the Grammy Award winning singer songwriter Rhiannon Giddens ever shies away from, though. She'll be with us in a moment. But first, here she is with the American singer Amanda Palmer, covering Portishead's song It's a Fire. They did this while being on two different continents.

SOUNDCLIP

[Song]

MG: That's a new pandemic release from Rhiannon Giddens and the American singer Amanda Palmer, Rhiannon Giddens is best known as an American banjo player and cultural historian who believes in making music that reflects diversity and acceptance. It's a skill set she's bringing to her new role as artistic director of the Silk Road project at Harvard University, an initiative founded 20 years ago by the cellist Yo-Yo Ma to promote cross-cultural exchange ran. And Giddens is also a MacArthur genius grant recipient and joins me now from her home in Limerick, Ireland. Rhiannan. Good morning.

RIHANNON GEDDENS: Good morning.

MG: Tell me about that song. How do you go about in the midst of a pandemic recording a new piece of music?

RIHANNON GEDDENS: Well, you know, it turns out to be with the technology that we've had for a while now, not so hard. Well, I was almost stuck on the other side of the world when the pandemic really hit and everybody started closing their borders and cancelling everything and I was in Australia and Amanda Palmer was in New Zealand. And I don't know, I just reached out to her. I said, oh, my God, we're both on the side of the world. Where are we going to do about this thing? Can we get something together? Can we help, you know, other artists? So we had done this Web sort of pandemic Web site and tried to put resources on for artists and everything. So we kind of collaborate a little bit on that. And then she reached out and said, you know, I want to do this song. Would you do it with me now? But by this time, I was in Ireland. She's still in New Zealand. And you know, the words, of course, really finding new sort of resonances in these days. So it was a very easy. Yes. You know, I at a moment where I kind of really needed to make some music and to be in that space, it was a kind of a godsend.

MG: Do you have you missed making music?

RIHANNON GEDDENS: I've missed making music for people. Like people. Well, OK. Like people that I can see. You know, I've streams and, you know, you see comments and all these kind of things. And that's been that's been helpful. But, you know, there's a lot about music that is in the living space, especially my kind of music anyway. So it's challenging, I'll say. But I'm lucky that I can. Be safe in my house and I have a bit of money in the bank and I can play music without having to worry about being evicted, so I'm not, you know, [unintelligible]. It's really not a it's not a hardship.

MG: One of the things that's come out in this moment is, is that so much of the things that we take for granted and the things that we were doing for a living have been taken away. And so to your point, you end up still in one place, not able to travel. Not able to be around the world. Are you enjoying that sense of stillness? I can imagine. I mean, just knowing your career, that you're touring constantly, you're always on the go. So what is the benefit if there is one of being parked in one place?

RIHANNON GEDDENS: Look, you kind of have to find what are the positives out of every moment, right out of every situation, because that the world doesn't do what you want it to do. And that's actually a good thing sometimes. And I'm not saying that it's a good thing. But I just mean in the sense of, you know, trying to find what the purpose is in this thing that's happening that you have no control over. And so for me, was stopping. I've been working really hard for a long time and just was burnt out, was really burnt out. And I had a lot of really major things cancelled this year. I lost all my work, work for my friends, work for, you know. And I couldn't really get that worked up about it, to be honest, because I was just so exhausted that I just was like, OK, I'm just I'm just I'm here. There's different challenges, of course, with that, because you have to sort of completely reorient yourself. I mean, I've become now I know how to run a pantry and to cook three meals a day. And you had to do that for week, weeks on end. You know, like I said, I'm as hard as it is sometimes. It's really not that hard in comparison to what a lot of people are putting up with around the world.

MG: So tell me about the Silk Road project and what was intriguing to you about this?

RIHANNON GEDDENS: Well, it came at a point my life, when I've already had already been sort of exploring the heart of American music. It really is the story of African-American music and how it engages with other influences, really. And it's only in the last couple of years that that's been really put into a global context for me. I've kind of discovered through my partnership with Francesco [unintelligible], an Italian multi instrumentalist who was kind of doing, on his side, talking about how, you know, Arabic, North African, Mediterranean, all of those sort of influences and central tenets of art and culture have been a huge part of European culture, even though they don't really like to admit that it's sort of the same way as, you know, on the American side. So I'm kind of realising, oh, there's this connexion to the world, you know, really what's I knew cerebrally, but kind of was getting a more visceral sense through kind of working with him. And so when the Silkroad up opportunity came, I was like, oh, actually, I'm kind of in a good position to at least know what questions to ask, but I definitely don't have the answers.

MG: Now, what are the questions you're asking and what would you want to achieve with that project?

RIHANNON GEDDENS: Well, I just want to know more. I'm always fascinated with how much human nature repeats, how much how alike we are. Of course we're different. But like when it comes when it boils down to the central tenets to being a human being. When you look at history, when you look at different cultures, we actually are very similar. There are things that that bind us. And I've always been interested in how that is reflected in our culture and our arts and our music and our food. And so I think an organisation like Silk Road is perfectly poised and has been doing its own work in that, you know, with that idea. You never meet a stranger, you know, this kind of notion since since the beginning. But I would love to tie that even more into what has happened in America over the last five hundred years. The Americas, not just America, but the Americas is very important. There's all of this history that is tied to the world. But we we forget that in a lot of ways, especially in the United States, forgets that there is no there is no United States about what happened before. You know, and musically speaking, I think there's a lot of opportunity to look at that in a really, really impactful way.

MG: Where does that come from? I mean, I've always thought of you in the music that you make in the music that that you talk about in interviews and things as like a connector, like you're somebody who is trying to bring things together and looking for those points of connection and those points of similarity. Where does that come from?

RIHANNON GEDDENS: I think it comes from being a neither nor. That's kind of- that's what I am. I was neither black nor white. I was neither city nor country. I was neither- I'm neither classical nor folk. You know, I've spent a lot of time in each world and I think have a deep understanding of each world. But I've come to accept pretty early on that my job is as a bridge between those worlds and it I'm drawn to that idea of this plus this equals this, you know, which is has both things in it. And everyone can actually understand that because they can see themselves in it. That's the thing that's really interesting to me. And I do think it is shaped by how I grew up feeling like an outsider a lot of the time.

MG: Just I mean, the last point on that, have you always been comfortable with it? One of the things about being as you say it, neither nor is that often people will either put you in that one place you're black or you're white or what have you, or you feel drawn to one over the other. Have you always been comfortable in being the bridge?

RIHANNON GEDDENS: I mean, it's just kind of what I it's just where I fell into it and I didn't really understand how that could be a positive thing until I really found, you know, the banjo and recognise that all of these different aspects of myself were actually helping me tell the story and helping me understand the story. So it was really when I found the music of Joe Thompson, the music of the Piedmont in North Carolina, which is where my family's from, you know, and kind of found my my identity as a North Carolinian. You know, this idea that regions trump race and they trump colour and they trump all these things is really the people that you live around. That's how you create community. And whenever we try whenever we do that, naturally, music is a great example of how we do that. Naturally, because you have regional styles before the advent of the recording industry, you had stuff was done here, stuff was done here, some things were done everywhere. But the region was cohesive. And you might have black and white people in that region playing the same music, you know, with maybe six different spices or whatever. And that idea is, I think, really interesting. And that helped to me kind of come to terms with the neither [unintelligible] of my of my body. Inco Well, I can, actually, I can't claim something. I am the North Carolinian. That is where I was born and that's who I am. You know, all of the influences in that region go into who I am. So it's just a different way of looking at it. But I think those early experiences of looking at the form that has black, white and other. Check a box, you know, what does that mean to be told that, you know, that I'm black but have a white father? Like, what does that mean? So all of those questions that that life and genders. I think was a natural fit to what I'm doing now.

MG: Why is the banjo the best vehicle for that for you?

RIHANNON GEDDENS: Because the banjo is a created instrument in the Americas. It is a native born American instrument. And for me, it is America. It is the story of America. Maybe I have I'm a little nearsighted because I'm obsessed with the banjo. I don't think I overstate the case because when you consider the story of the banjo, it very neatly parallels the story of America. As I say, because it is because when you consider, OK, the banjo created in the Caribbean by the African diaspora, the descendents of Africans or Africans, you know, people who had just come over, born of hardship, born of slavery, born of brutal but brutal life in this in this way that the black culture is already starting to Creole and come together and to survive this from various different West African and African cultures coming together. But also now there's already European involvement here. And so this creation within black culture of something that then goes on to be taken by the dominant culture and it then becomes a conversation. So this is what happens. It's created in the Caribbean. Then white people pick it up in the eighteen twenties and thirties and then it becomes everybody's playing the instrument. But of course, it's a company with blackface. So there's this mimicry kind of weird racism. Yet we like what you're doing, but we're you know, it's just this kind of weird combination of horrible things altogether. And then you have the erasure of the black history of the banjo and its adoption as a white ethnic cultural instrument in the nineteen early nineteen hundreds and the in the 20s, 30s and 40s. And then you have today where people are completely unaware of all that history. So for me, it's an excellent representation of American culture and a lot of ways because so many of so much of the heart of what American culture is, a lot of it comes from the struggles and the story of black America. And the conversation that is being had between cultures like that is America. That is American music. And the banjo very nicely represents that in every aspect.

MG: What happens when you reveal that history? I mean, again, people have an idea of what the banjo is and. And part of that is based around that a racer, as you said. When you peel that back and you say, actually, this is what this instrument is. And this is the history and the heritage and the provenance of it. And this is why it matters. How did people react?

RIHANNON GEDDENS: Like I did. Shocked. Like what? Like, really? And then depending on the person. Sometimes it's just bemusement. Sometimes it's anger. Sometimes shame. Sometimes it's like, oh, wow. Like, I remember talking I was a part of this. It was a Canadian series, actually, this project about the slave ships that were being excavated. And Sam Jackson, Samuel L. Jackson is the host. And they brought in to Africa town and to talk about the banjo to a group of black people, you know, a lot of elders from this town. And that was a really intense experience for me because there were like what? We did know this. And there was anger, you know. And so people like, why weren't we told this? Like, this is actually amazing. This is so, you know, because the narrative for so many of us has been like, you guys sucked pretty much because you were made slaves and you didn't do anything but like mope around all day and sing spirituals until we let you go. And then you kind of just, you know, turn into welfare moms. I mean, like, this is the narrative that we've been taught. And the banjo is one of those pieces of no actually were enormous pace. We're like we created, we co created. We are like, you can't take us out of the American the U.S. narrative. Everything collapses, you know. And the banjo being such an obvious emblem of that of the 180 degree turn, you know, if the banjo, which is what everybody would swear on their graves of their ancestors is a white mountain instrument. Right. People would swear this. And then you find out that there's so much evidence to the contrary. It's not like a little bit it's not like one lost letter that said Petko is black. It's like reams of evidence. There's just no denying it. And when you look at that, you go, well. So how much more don't we know? Like, that's that's what happens to me. I that's. That was the next question I asked was. OK, so what else aren't they telling us about how we survived and how we contributed to the American story?

MG: I want to play another piece of music. This is a tune you wrote called Cry No More.

SOUNDCLIP

[Song]

MG: Rhiannon Giddens, tell me a little bit about that and what you were thinking when you wrote that.

RIHANNON GEDDENS: It was like in another world listening to that, because I wrote that as an acapella piece. I wrote that five years ago, actually, when Dylann Roof shot up that church in Charleston and massacred all those churchgoers. And I did a version then with my friends and family at a church and there was a video. And, you know, it's just, you know, you just make, you just make when you are moved to make it, even though to try. I don't know. You just you have to put it out and then maybe people get solace from it. Maybe they feel like they can get through another day. I don't know. And so when all of this stuff was happening this summer and I was just it's very hard. In Ireland, kind of crying a lot. And somebody posted that, you know, one of my fans posted that. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Yes. I'm looking at the words going. What has changed? I don't know. This is still pretty, you know. So I wrote a couple of new verses and I reached out to Michael Abels and I said, he's an amazing composer, a film score. He's just really amazingly talented. And I said, could you orchestrate this, you know, and create a spot in the middle for cello? And he did an amazing job. We pulled the pandemic performance of this. So that's the Metropolitan Opera Chorus and these amazing members of the Sphinx ensemble. And then there's a ballet dancer on the on the video and an incredible cellist. And it was just a really I don't know. I mean, we all felt the urge to create. We all felt the urge to come together and people seemed to be really responding to it. So I feel good about being an artist and trying to make the world a better place. I don't know.

MG: You've talked to a couple of times about feeling removed. What is it like to watch the lead up to this election and everything swirling around from a distance?

RIHANNON GEDDENS: Oh, it sucks. And a lot of ways. I mean, because, like, all my family's in the midst of it, you know, they're all in North Carolina, like, you know, and it's just I'm reaching out as much as I can just to kind of stay in touch and doing as much art as I can. But it's hard on my kids going, why are you crying, Mommy? And I'm just like...

MG: What do you what do you say to them?

RIHANNON GEDDENS: I tell them, I say this is what's happening. I don't know, I just I'm just honest and I just say, like, this is the situation. And it makes me sad. And, you know, Mike, my son, for example, was playing this one of these games, a game. And I realised that it was a cop. It was a game where you are a cop and you're trying to catch criminals. And I just said, I don't want you to play that game anymore. It was just in the midst of everything this summer. And, God bless him, he was just like, why? And I said, because I just it makes me really sad. And so he, like, closed up the pad and was fine with that. But then he came over and we talked about it and I said, what makes somebody a criminal? What makes somebody a cop? What is a cop? So we had this conversation about, you know, just in term- he's seven means that he's a smart seven, but he's seven. But, you know, just try to use it as an example of just saying, you know, things aren't always black and white.

MG: What are you listening to now to try to- I mean people are listening to your music. To find something to hang onto in this moment that seems to be moving at a million miles an hour and also going really slowly. What are. you listening to?

RIHANNON GEDDENS: Podcasts, history, podcasts, actually, I listen to a lot of the BBC in our time. You know, I watch a little bit of the Great British Bake Off.

MG: But the history stuff, I mean, you're like history in particular because it gives you some sense as to what?

RIHANNON GEDDENS: Oh, my God. It relaxes me. It really does. When you when you're listening to the atrocities committed by Alexander the Great or, oh, just any in any civilisation, quote unquote, civilisation in the history of humanity when you realise that this stuff goes way, way back. You know, we've been doing this ever since settlements, ever since we started growing food and realising that we had to protect a plot of land. It simultaneously winds me up and relaxes me because I kind of go, God, that's all I've read about. I read about that or listen to the arse tax or, you know, the history of this or that, or Harriet Tubman. Oh, my God. I kind of go, yeah, but you know what? Like, all you can do is that thing that you're doing in this moment, because really everything is there's these huge cycles of history that we have no control over. All I got is control over today. If you can make that moment count, then you'll do the right things, I think. Maybe I'm too optimistic. I don't know. But that's just how I'm making sense of the world at the moment.

MG: It's a real pleasure to talk to you. The urgency around what you're creating right now is really important as well. And it matches this moment. And I appreciate that. So thank you.

RIHANNON GEDDENS: Thank you.

MG: Rhiannon Giddens is an American Grammy Award winning singer, songwriter, multi instrumentalist and the new director of the Silk Road project at Harvard University. And that's it for The Current for today and for this week. Q is up next on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. Have a great weekend. We'll talk to you on Monday.

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