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The AIH Transcript for October 21, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Confidence games. After the Trudeau government narrowly survives a vote that could have forced Canadians into a pandemic election, we ask NDP House leader Peter Julian why his party supported the Liberals.

CH: Not very veiled threats. A Chinese Canadian working in Hong Kong says recent pointed advice to Ottawa from a Chinese diplomat was both threatening and outrageous.

CO: A protest against police brutality turns brutal. A protester in Lagos tells us about what he describes as a massacre when the military opened fire on their demonstration.

CH: Straight into Compton. As community leaders in the California city launch a guaranteed income pilot project, Compton's mayor says a program like this really could have helped her family when she was growing up.

CO: Slow on the uptick. As parts of Toronto see alarmingly high rates of COVID, one Ontario MPP says his riding is being left behind in testing despite his pleas for help.

CH: And rhythm and booze. The band Metallica issues a metal liquor in the form of a whiskey that distillers actually played Metallica to while it was aging. As It Happens. The Wednesday Edition. Radio that knows one man's thrash is another man's treasure.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: WE Confidence vote: Peter Julian

WE Confidence vote: Peter Julian

Guest: Peter Julian

CH: Justin Trudeau won't be calling a pandemic election after all. At least not right away. This afternoon, the Trudeau government survived a vote about a committee to investigate the We charity business. I say survived because the prime minister had announced that this would be a confidence vote on which his minority government would live or die. That prompted this exchange with conservative leader Erin O'Toole this afternoon before the vote.

ERIN O'TOOLE: Mr. Speaker. Will the prime minister put the health and well-being of Canadians first today? Will he rise in this house and undertake not to force a general election before public commentary and opinion from Dr. Tam and Elections Canada?

SPEAKER: The right honourable prime minister.

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Mr. Speaker. The choice is up to the opposition parties, Mr. Speaker. They moved a motion that is clearly not in confidence of the government, they have decided that they no longer want to work constructively in this house to deliver for Canadians. It is their choice, Mr. Speaker. On this side of the House, we're not interested in an election. We have much work to do to continue to deliver for Canadians. The question before the opposition today is whether or not they want to continue to work constructively for Canadians or not. And we shall soon see their answer.

CH: That was Prime Minister Trudeau responding to conservative leader Erin O'Toole in Question Period today. Mr. Trudeau's Liberals did go on to win their vote thanks to a little help from the Greens and the NDP. Peter Julian is the NDP House leader. We reached him in New Westminster, B.C..

CO: Mr. Julian, why did your party, the NDP, why did you stand with the Liberals on this motion?

PETER JULIAN: Somebody needed to be the adults in the room. And Jagmeet Singh and the NDP, we had a caucus discussion around what has been a series of moves to the cliff over the last few days by Mr. O'Toole, the Conservative Party, and Mr. Trudeau as head of the Liberal Party. I mean, essentially what they did was brought the parliament to a crisis first by offering a motion that was so badly written from the Conservative standpoint, a number of amendments had to be proposed. And then the Liberal government basically overreacting by saying we're going to take people into a national election in the midst of a pandemic if this committee was set up to investigate allegations of...

CO: Right. But a special committee with broad authority to call ministers and the prime minister, demand reams of documents, call the anti-corruption committee -- I mean, does it surprise anyone that Liberals would want to shut that down?

PJ: I think it was overreach by both Mr. O'Toole and by Mr. Trudeau. But the reality is we do have to get to the bottom of these allegations of misspending. The NDP had offered a compromise all along that would have avoided this crisis. But we wanted to put an end to this escalating crisis and hope to get all members of parliament, and particularly the government, focused on actually helping people through this pandemic. So many people have fallen through the cracks. And I think this was an unnecessary crisis provoked by both the Liberal Party and the Conservatives.

CO: But don't you want to know more about how nearly a billion dollars came to be awarded to a charity with connections to the prime minister?

PJ: Absolutely. Which is why the NDP has offered at the standing committee level a number of motions to actually get to the bottom of these allegations. We believe that they're serious. But the motion that the Conservatives tabled was over the top. The response of the liberal governments and Mr. Trudeau was even more over the top. And in a pandemic, I think we need to be keeping calm as all the medical officers have been advising us across the country, keeping calm and working together. And that just obviously fell apart over the last few days. The move by Jagmeet Singha and the NDP Caucus is an attempt to put things right so that we're at the same time investigating these important allegations of spending and moving forward and providing supports to Canadians. And that's been the NDP mantra from the very beginning. We've forced a number of other supports to be put into place that the Liberal government was initially opposed to. We're using our 24 members to leverage in the minority parliament supports so that Canadians can feel supported during this pandemic and no one is left behind.

CO: The money -- just go back to the We charity. This money was never awarded, right, the deal was never actually closed. So we nearly had an election during a pandemic because of a deal that never actually went through. Do you think that it actually nearly happened? And did you have any agreement or an understanding with the Liberals that this was not going to happen, that this game of chicken was going to conclude the way it's concluded today?

PJ: No, I think the Liberal government basically just cut off opposition parties. And I think that is a very unfortunate step that they aren't seemingly not willing to speak with the opposition parties. In a minority parliament, that's essential. I don't think the Conservatives were talking with people either. And so we needed adults in the room to step up and decide the best course of action and a course of action that Jagmeet Singh announced today that we would be voting against the Conservative motion with all of its problems. But at the same time, we're going to get to the bottom of these allegations of misspending through the existing standing committees like Finance, Procedure and House Affairs, and the Ethics Committee.

CO: Okay. So there was no deal, no understanding, no discussions in the back rooms between the Liberals and NDP that this script will be written today?

PJ: We are absolutely reaching out to all parties at all times. The government basically since August has been, with only a few exceptions, not really willing to talk with opposition parties. I think Mr. Trudeau wanted to provoke an election. We were not willing to give that to him. We didn't think it was in the national interest at all during a pandemic. And now I'm hoping that Mr. Trudeau will start to work with all parties in the House of Commons. Certainly at the beginning of the pandemic, I think all members of parliament were working together. I think that was much more in the interests of the country and we need to get back to that as the second wave hits tragically.

CO: Another party, Bloc Quebecois, that was voted with the Conservatives on this saying that the Liberals have a scorched earth approach to politics. At the same time, the House leader of Bloc Quebecois, Alain Therrien, said the NDP has become a lapdog of the Liberals. Does that hurt?

PJ: No. I mean, I'm used to name calling in politics. That just washes off our backs, because the reality is when you look what the NDP has pushed for and what we have obtained for people, whether that's support for seniors, support for people with disabilities which the government still hasn't rolled out but has now promised to roll out in the next two weeks, supports for people who've lost their jobs, businesses, and supports for rents, the Canadian wage subsidy, all of those things where NDP initiatives that we pushed the government to put into place. And so we know we've had a real impact through this pandemic. But our job is not done. There are many people that are still falling through the cracks. And we want to make sure that they get the supports that they need through this second wave of the pandemic.

CO: Just finally and briefly, people are wondering if Liberal minority governments of the past when there's just trauma all the time, it is always on the verge of the government coming down in a non confidence motion, are we going to see more of this?

PJ: I certainly hope not. I certainly hope that Mr. Trudeau just decides he's going to work with the opposition parties. I would advise the Conservatives to calm down their rhetoric, and let's all work together in the interests of the country. This is a critical time. We're in a pandemic. People are falling through the cracks. We all need to work together to make sure that we are actually getting through this pandemic with nobody left behind. And we're able coming, out of this, to build in a better, more effective, more equitable way for Canadians right across the country.

CO: We'll leave it there. Mr. Julian thank you.

PJ: Thank you.

CH: Peter Julian is the NDP House leader. We reached him in New Westminster, British Columbia.

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COVID testing MPP

Guest: Faisal Hassan

CH: When it comes to COVID risks in Toronto, it comes down to location, location, location. According to a recent weeks worth of data in the affluent neighbourhoods of The Bridle Path and The Beaches, not a single person tested positive. Across the entire city, the positivity rate is currently four point four percent. But it's a very different story when you look at the northwestern corner of the city. Positivity rates in some of those areas have blown past 10 percent. And politicians there still say they aren't getting the testing and support they need to control the pandemic. Faisal Hassan is an Ontario MPP who represents a riding in the city's northwest. We reached him in Toronto.

CO: Mr. Hassan, how did you react when you learned that in Toronto's wealthiest neighbourhoods, the COVID positivity rates are tiny, but in yours they're pushing past 10 percent?

FAISAL HASSAN: It's shocking. And, you know, testing in our community continues to pose a challenge to individuals and families simply trying to do the right thing. We have high proportion of vulnerable residents and many front line workers in health care, food services, and retail who don't have the option of working from home. And this is a concern, definitely. And what we need is to have reliable testing centres. Delays, as has been noted by our constituents, are totally unacceptable. It's forcing people to stay in isolation and unable to earn a living.

CO: And people there, as you say, working class people who if they still have jobs, they need to get to those jobs, they need to get kids to school, day care, and all that. So what are they telling you about what it's like to try and get tests done, how long it actually takes to get tested when they need to get back to work?

FH: Well, I mean, this is the key. I mean, the people in my community don't have the luxury. You know, they have to go to work. And these delays are unacceptable. And it is forcing them not to earn an earning, not because of the hardworking staff. It is becoming very unable to earn a living, risking, you know. Transmission even worse, by the time the local public health units have followed up with a contact on a positive case, it may be too late as they could already have spread the virus to others. It is becoming very difficult because they don't have the luxury of driving their own cars. And what they are also telling me about the disturbing days, long waits for test results, people who have known exposure to people who tested positive for COVID, who have symptoms, they are waiting a week and two weeks or more and counting for results. And it's making it difficult for my community. And this government has to act before the second wave because the government has to do something about this. And we need an urgent action to fix the testing mess and also the lack of investment. We need more resources right now to protect our community before it's too late.

CO: Well, what are they saying about the cases, these stories where people waited as much as two weeks to get the results from a test? What are they saying to you about why it's taking so long?

FH: That is why because, for example, we fought hard to get a testing location -- we didn't have since March because we were fighting here to have a testing location. They've already termed us as a high risk area, and hot spots in this part of the city. And some of the folks, as soon as the facility was up and they have tested and they have been waiting and waiting for more than two weeks, three weeks. And folks don't have the luxury to have the means to feed themselves. They have to work and they have to go out and and some of them also have to rely on visiting their family members in long term care. And they're telling me this is taking long and long time. They can't go back to work. And this is unacceptable.

CO: And as you point out, they don't have access to perhaps their own vehicle, so they are taking public transportation at the same time.

FH: Yes. And I mean, this is happening, you know, not because of the hard working staff at the Humber River Hospital, but because the Ford government is pinching pennies on people's backs, refusing to make proper investments in local testing resources where people are getting sick. And folks like in my community, they can't have the luxury to stay home and work at their homes. And this is also very difficult for them because they don't have the means like the wealthier neighbourhood do. Folks are telling me three weeks, 25 days, 14 days -- who have no idea when they will finally get the results of their tests, leaving them unable to return to their jobs, go back to school, or provide essential care to their loved ones in long term care home.

CO: Now, a hospital spokesperson says the issues with the testing are now resolved. Is that what you're hearing?

FH: I mean since yesterday, constituents are contacting us. And this is not, Carol, because of the hardworking stuff Humber River Hospital, but because the Ford government is pinching pennies on the people's backs, refusing to make proper investments in local testing resources where people are getting sick. And I want to make sure that's clear. And we need urgent action to fix it. It means to provide more resources. We need attention here like other neighbourhoods and other communities. It is wrong to wait seven months, you know, to have a testing location here in this community.

CO: We've heard from so many different places, not just in this country, everywhere, about the inequality for how this disease, how this pandemic is affecting different sectors of society. What do you say to those who say we're all in this together?

FH: Well, I said we are all in together as citizens, as a community. But also there are communities that have been neglected. And this neglect hasn't just started today. It has been going on for quite some time, especially the last 15 years. And suddenly this current government hasn't put those resources we need to create opportunities and investment directly into communities like ours. And we are in it together to work together to make sure that communities like ours are given extra attention and resources to make things better.

CO: Mr. Hassan, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

FH: Thank you Carol.

CH: Faisal Hassan is an Ontario NDP MP. We reached him in Toronto.

[Music]

Nigeria protests

CH: The sun went down and the bullets began to fly. In Lagos, Nigeria, last night, thousands of demonstrators gathered at the Lekki Toll Plaza, defying a curfew. Witnesses, as well as Amnesty International and the U.N. say Nigeria's security forces opened fire. The death toll is unclear. Across Nigeria, young people have been taking to the streets for two weeks now. The protests began as a call to end Nigeria's secretive police force, which has been accused of extortion, torture, and murder by human rights groups. And they carried on even after Nigeria's government agreed to disband the unit. We reached a protester who witnessed last night's violence at the Lekki Toll Plaza. We're withholding his name out of fear for his safety.

CO: Can you just take us back to last night? What was the scene before the shooting started?

VOICE: We've actually been congregating at the Lekki Toll Gate Plaza for the past 10 days. We're actually protesting against police brutality in Nigeria, a unit of the Nigerian police called SARS: Special Anti Robbery Squad. You know, they are known for raping people, extorting, and killing young citizens. And we're protesting for the government to disband this police unit. So we've actually been protesting for about 10 days. And yesterday was, you know, day 11. And, you know, it was normal, business as usual, peaceful protest. You know, people coming out, you know, chanting, encouraging everybody and all that kind of stuff. So there was going to be 24 hours curfew. So we decided that we were going to remain at Lekki Toll Gate Plaza, you know, to observe our curfew there.

CO: So the scene was that you were assembled there. And I understand some singing as well. It was peaceful, but there was singing.

VOICE: Yeah. It was peaceful. You know, we were just singing, you know, solidarity forever, you know, and all that kind of chanting and singing. Everything was peaceful. There was no violence. You know, we're just trying to make our voices heard.

CO: Did you see the presence of the security forces, the police? Could you see them close to you?

VOICE: Okay. We were at the protest ground and at about, you know, 5:00 p.m., some people from the government, they came to remove the CCTV cameras in and around the Lekki Toll Gate. We were uncomfortable with it. But, you know, we felt safe because, you know, we had our phone cameras and we had some TV stations present. We had on TV station from France, you know, they were present. We thought, okay, at least we've got cameras and we're safe. Then at 6:30 p.m., they cut power, they cut electricity. And everywhere was dark. So at exactly 6:43 p.m. members of the Nigerian military, they pulled up on us. And you know, we already told everybody present, in case, you know, maybe the police or the army come around, that, you know, we should just lock our arms, sit on the ground, and wave our flags, and sing the national anthem. At exactly 6:45 p.m., the Nigerian army, the soldiers, they pulled up on us, they started advancing and they started shooting directly at us.

CO: Must have taken a moment even to comprehend that they had opened fire on your demonstration.

VOICE: It happened so fast. We did not even have any time to react. They pulled in at 6:43 p.m. and within two minutes they opened fire directly at us. And it was chaos and pandemonium from then. And they kept on advancing and they kept on shooting and shooting. And within 15 minutes of the assaults, about 20 people were already dead. You know, on the ground, so much screaming, you know, there was tears, there was blood. And at about 7 p.m. today, we've actually recorded several casualties of fatalities, 70 people, and a lot more were injured.

CO: This moment that you were in, first of all, realizing there were bullets flying. And did you see people around you dropping? Did you see your fellow protesters?

VOICE: It was horrific. Trust me, I think that was the worst moment of my life. Somebody actually got hit right beside me and he died like almost immediately. And the members of the Nigerian army, they actually barricaded everywhere and they did not allow the ambulances to come in and assist the injured people. It was a premeditated attack. They planned it because they cut the power, you know, they removed the CCTV cameras. Mobile network was bad. So everything was almost like war. And the governor of Lagos state, you know, subsequently today he went on TV and he actually said there were no fatalities.

CO: But on top of that, the Nigerian security forces are saying that it didn't happen at all, that it's fake news.

VOICE: They are actually lying. It's pathetic. I think this is an organized crime. It is an organized crime because even the president has actually said nothing, absolutely nothing about this. The security forces are denying when actually they were the ones that carried out the assault. You know, we have video evidence, you know, they were in camouflage, we saw everything. Nobody wants to take responsibility for what happened, but we are trying to get justice because we have damning evidences, you know, to prove what happened beyond any reasonable doubt. One of us, I don't want to mention a name, one of us actually did an Instagram live video that about 200,000 people watched as the members of the Nigerian army shot at us. And one guy actually took his last breath for about 200,000 people to see. It was heart-breaking. So, you know, they can deny all they want, but we've got video evidences and pictures to prove everything that happened.

CO: And how are people in Lagos, in Nigeria responding as they see these videos, as they see what happened in Lekki Plaza, how are they responding?

VOICE: Well, there's been chaos because, you know, the people are very angry. They're very mad. They are tired of, you know, being oppressed. And, you know, a lot of angry mobs, they've been out there on the streets of Lagos vandalizing government properties. It is really, really tense out here.

CO: And how are you doing? This must have been a very traumatic experience.

VOICE: I've actually not been able to sleep since yesterday. And I'm actually seeing a therapist because I'm traumatized. I'm in shock, you know. I owe it to myself and my people, you know, to get better because we still have to fight. We need to continue fighting.

CO: I am so sorry this has happened. And I do appreciate you speaking with us tonight.

VOICE: It's a pleasure.

CO: All right. Take care of yourself.

VOICE: All right. Thank you very much.

CH: That was a 30 year old protester in Lagos, Nigeria. We are withholding his name out of fear for his safety. Amnesty International says the Nigerian army killed at least 12 people in Lagos last night and left hundreds severely injured.

[Music]

Sound of the Day: We Approve This Message

CH: Typically, if you see two candidates in the same election ad, it's a split screen. On one side, there's a flawlessly manicured candidate doing a walk and talk through a flawlessly manicured neighbourhood where everyone is smiling about the candidate's terrific message. And on the other side, there's a blooper reel of their opponent looking terrible, alongside a list of their terrible policies. That's the standard approach. But two candidates running to be the next governor of Utah just tried to set a new standard. Republican Spencer Cox and Democrat Chris Peterson appeared side by side in the same ad, socially distanced in the same room and approved the same message.

CHRIS PETERSON: I'm Chris Peterson.

SPENCER COX: And I'm Spencer Cox.

CHRIS PETERSON: We are currently in the final days of campaigning against each other to be your next governor.

SPENCER COX: And while I think you should vote for me.

CHRIS PETERSON: But, really, you should vote for me.

SPENCER COX: There are some things we both agree on.

CHRIS PETERSON: We can debate issues without degrading each other's character.

SPENCER COX: We can disagree without hating each other.

CHRIS PETERSON: And win or lose, in Utah we work together.

SPENCER COX: So let's show the country that there's a better way.

CHRIS PETERSON: My name is Chris Peterson.

SPENCER COX: And I'm Spencer Cox.

BOTH: And we approve this message.

CH: Candidates for governor of Utah, Spencer Cox -- a Republican, and Chris Peterson -- a Democrat, vowing to work together, win or lose, in a joint election ad that's gone viral. That's our Sound of the Day.

[Music]

Part 2: Chinese ambassador should apologize or be expelled for 'threatening' Canadians in Hong Kong: activist

Canadians in Hong Kong

Guest: Edward Chin

CH: Chrystia Freeland says China's ambassador to Canada needs to work on his diplomacy. In the House of Commons on Monday, the deputy prime minister said recent comments by the envoy are in no way, "In keeping with the spirit of appropriate diplomatic relations between two countries." She was speaking about a video conference last week where ambassador at Cong Peiwu urged Canada not to grant asylum to protesters from Hong Kong. And some have called comments he made during that event threats to some Canadians living in Hong Kong. Edward Chin is a Chinese Canadian pro-democracy activist and hedge fund manager working and living in Hong Kong. That's where we reached him.

CO: Mr. Chin, how secure do you feel as a Canadian in Hong Kong right now?

EDWARD CHIN: I think after the Chinese ambassador to Canada, whatever statement he made, I don't think -- I shouldn't say seriously -- I think this is one of the so-called, like, wolf warrior tactics they have been using.

CO: Wolf warrior diplomacy is something China has been accused of in this case. This is something that has been a common criticism of China recently. So do you feel secure or not?

EC: After the enactment of the national security law that went effective on July 1st, I think every Hong Kong person, that means anyone who is also, let's say, an expat living in Hong Kong or a Hong Kong permanent I.D. card holder, they should be acutely aware that right now living in Hong Kong equals living in China. There's no difference at all. There is no more one country, two systems. Now, the Chinese ambassador to Canada, you know, whatever he said, you know, is threatening. This is outrageous. Honestly, I think he should be reprimanded.

CO: The statement the China's ambassador in Ottawa was warning against granting asylum to Hong Kong dissidents. And he said if the Canadian side really cares about the stability and prosperity in Hong Kong and really cares about the good health and safety of those 300,000 Canadian passport holders in Hong Kong and the large number of Canadian companies operating Hong Kong, you should support those efforts to fight violent crimes. And of course, he's referring to the national security law. Does that sound like a threat to you?

EC: It is because the safety of all the 300,000 Canadians living in Hong Kong does mean that they want to treat Chinese-Canadians or Caucasian-Canadians in Hong Kong, just like the two Michaels just to abduct them into China. Right now, they have this National Security Bureau in Hong Kong inside some hotel in Causeway Bay. So they could just use any excuse and then detain someone. I think Ottawa and the Trudeau government honestly should really speak up.

CO: Chrystia Freeland has spoken out in Canada. She has said that this is not in the spirit of diplomatic relations. But the opposition is saying that the government should go further, that in fact, they should demand that the ambassador either apologize or leave the country, have his credentials pulled. Do you think that Canada should go that far?

EC: The opposition party is saying the right thing. Definitely this Chinese ambassador to Canada should definitely apologize because it's threatening 300,000 people. The opposition leader, I agree with him, you know, they should do something, you know, like to show that Canada is not one of the weakest Five Eyes countries because it's perceived that way, especially in Hong Kong, when every time we hear about, you know, like Canadians and even I myself, you know, when the two Michaels they were detained and we came out and support the two Michaels by perhaps some sort of a protest on January 1st, 2019, just one week after they were abducted. So how come the Trudeau government is not doing more? For this I think the Conservative Party, whatever statement they say, you know, either they apologize or, you know, just change another person.

CO: To have their credentials pulled now. So you have been an activist, you have been outspoken for years even before this, a national security law came into effect and as you point out, became something where people who speak out against China could be arrested, that free speech has been criminalized. So you have been outspoken for years. Are you concerned that you might be targeted by the regime right now, given what they've said about Canada?

EC: Well at this point, everyone can be targeted. I mean, like we as Chinese-Canadians, we're in a very awkward situation. Ethnically, I'm Chinese. So it is embarrassing to have like a Chinese ambassador to Canada and they will do some harm to Chinese people living in Hong Kong, whether I'm Canadian or not. I don't dislike China -- I think it's a great country with a great civilization. But the CCP, the Chinese Communist Party, the way they treat their own people is very questionable. And that's why Deng Xiaoping promised the two systems until 2047. But now we are short changed by 27 years.

CO: Will you ever leave Hong Kong? Do you think that's something that you might have to do?

EC: Besides my investment business and hedge funds and all that, my other work is I'm a current affairs writer, a commentator. I think I want to wait until they put a gun point -- when someone's had that, I think that would be the time that we all should leave. And if they shutdown, for instance, Apple Daily or some of the Internet radio or they arrest a lot of these full time political commentators, that's the time I think a lot of people should leave and then the whole world should talk with the CCP and confront with them in a forceful way.

CO: Mr. Chin, we will leave it there. I appreciate speaking with you.

EC: Thank you.

CH: Edward Chin is a hedge fund manager and the founder of the pro-democracy group 2047 Hong Kong Monitor. We reached him in Hong Kong. And for more on the story, visit our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Brenda Lucki

CH: In the ongoing dispute between Indigenous and non-Indigenous lobster fishermen in Nova Scotia, the Sipekne'katik band netted themselves a victory today. A provincial Supreme Court judge issued a temporary injunction to end blockades and threats against the community. That injunction follows the destruction of a facility used to store Mi'kmaq caught lobster in Pubnico, Nova Scotia. And it comes after weeks of accusations that RCMP officers in the province have done little to stop the violence. At a news conference today, RCMP Commissioner Brenda Lucki was asked to address those accusations. Here's part of her response.

BRENDA LUCKI: I want to reassure again the people of Nova Scotia, the Mi'kmaq and all Canadians that we are managing this issue and we are as well, like yourself, deeply concerned by the acts of violence and the property damage that are linked to the dispute. Of course, we can't be in every single location, but when we are there and when we are made aware of those actions, we will step in, we will intervene, we will investigate, and we will hold those to account who continue to pursue criminal activity. Also committed to that, we are committed to the reconciliation with Indigenous people through proactive communication and engagement with the Indigenous and strengthening the trust and the relationship. Our approach has always been a measured approach that encourages police to undertake that proactive engagement and commitment to the Indigenous people and the people of Nova Scotia.

REPORTER: With respect commissioner, there has been a call for your own resignation -- given comments that you made previously around systemic racism. I know you addressed some of the concerns at the time. But why should Indigenous people and all Canadians have confidence in your leadership and your ability to tackle systemic racism within your force?

BRENDA LUCKI: Like I said a few months ago, I did acknowledge that there is systemic racism in the RCMP. And from that time I have been as my entire organization, I've been listening, I've been learning, I've been engaging, and I've been consulting with many groups from racialized communities as well as Indigenous communities, leaders, Senator Sinclair, the commissioner of the MMIWG to name a few. And looking for a way forward. Since I got in the chair as commissioner, I've had a mandate to modernize the RCMP. And through Vision 150, we've been working on our policing services, our stewardship, our people and our culture. We've also been working at advancing equity, diversity, and trust in Canadians. The events have been changing. We are a police agency of the times. The times are changing and we need to change with those times.

CH: RCMP Commissioner Brenda Lucki in an exchange with The Globe and Mail's Kristy Kirkup today.

[Music]

Compton guaranteed income

Guest: Aja Brown

CH: Growing up, Aja Brown knew what it was like to be an emergency away from having to move. Ms. Brown is the mayor of Compton, California -- south of Los Angeles. And she mentioned that uncertain childhood earlier this week as her city announced that it was launching a guaranteed income pilot project. The two year program is set to begin later this year and will include about 800 residents of her city. We reached Mayor Aja Brown in Compton, California.

CO: Mayor Brown, first of all, what would a program like this have done for your family when you were growing up?

AJA BROWN: Well, my mother was definitely was a poor single mother who worked very hard to provide for my brother and I. And I know for a fact that a guaranteed income would have made a transformative difference in her ability to just have peace of mind and to actually plan for things in the future and to actually have a savings and plan for unplanned expenses that ultimately pushed my family into different levels of instability on many occasions growing up.

CO: This idea of a universal basic income or a guaranteed basic income, lots of places, including Canada, have considered it and played with it, but no one has really gone through 100 percent with that. So why did you think that your town of Compton would be a good place to have this program?

AB: Well, I watched the mayor of Stockton, Michael Tubbs, implement a similar study a couple of years ago to pilot a smaller group of Stocktonians. And after the outcome of his data, I was even more motivated to be able to implement something similar in Compton. And obviously, I've had my own personal experience, but that of the participants really echoed and reinforced what I knew to be true is that people definitely need an additional supplement to their income to really improve their quality of life, spend more time with their children, make longer term decisions, and also to get out of the cycle of relying on predatory lending to bridge the gap with their basic needs.

CO: What did you see in that study? What was revealed that showed this is something that could actually make that big a difference?

AB: Seeing that people that were stuck in a dead end job and couldn't interview because they couldn't afford to take off of work, being able to do that and be able to have additional upward mobility, to be able to have a savings for the first time in their life, when unplanned expenses arose they were able to meet them. Some families were able to enroll their children in extracurricular activities. So for me, it really provided new opportunities for participants and ultimately improve the quality of the fabric of their community.

CO: And so about 800 residents of Compton will be able to take part in this. Who'll be allowed to participate?

AB: We are reaching out to all households to be able to screen them and their ability to participate. But we're really focusing on working for those that obviously have worked through every job and still not able to meet the gap. We're focusing on single mothers, single fathers, single head of households, including those elderly that are taking care of their grandchildren because of extraneous circumstances. We are focusing on those that were formerly incarcerated or undocumented that do not qualify for additional federal or government aid, especially at the time in this pandemic where unemployment and underemployment has mushroomed. And so we're really focusing on ensuring that we get a broad sense of all of our community members. But that's also reflective of our city's demographics.

CO: But for people to understand this is not welfare necessary. This is a different kind of a program. How does it work?

AB: Absolutely. So this is not welfare. This is not meant to replace welfare. This is simply a basic supplement to income. Our particular pilot will provide additional financial literacy tools, empowerment, free checking account, different way for people to actually learn and be exposed to different financial habits. But the actual monthly supplement, again, will not impact any additional aid that they are receiving. And we're hoping to be able to measure what this will actually do to their decision making and then also their ability to just experience less trauma within their lives as well.

CO: How much supplement will they get?

AB: We have a range of 300 dollars to 600 dollars per participant. We are allowing for additional funding for families with more children or that exhibit a need. So there will be a range and we'll be monitoring the various groups.

CO: And who's paying for it?

AB: Private donors. We have raised money. We are still raising additional funding to expand our program. But various individuals that do believe in human dignity and a basic income floor throughout the nation, and also those that are committed to the broader policy work to make the case for an income at the federal level.

CO: You mentioned that among those who could benefit from this are the undocumented, the immigrants in your country who don't have the paperwork. Why is that specifically a group that would need this kind of a supplement?

AB: Well the undocumented, they do not qualify for stimulus or additional government aid, and many of the undocumented population are just without income all of a sudden and they've been without income since the onset of the pandemic. For many people there isn't a break in when their income or opportunities to generate income will be restored. And so household composition have changed that. People have had multiple generations living under one roof and are really bracing the storm on how they can weather this significant setback.

CO: We had a similar pilot project in Ontario, in Canada, with three cities, and it was then cancelled. It was a government funded program, it was cancelled by an incoming government, the government we have now. And so I guess one of the problems with anything like this is that a guaranteed basic income has to be guaranteed, doesn't it?

AB: Absolutely. That is one major factor that that income will be guaranteed and something that people can count on. Because on the simple standpoint, you cannot plan if you don't have all of the factors in place.

CO: What are the chances then that you think this could be a permanent and guaranteed income for those people?

AB: We're very hopeful and we're actually planning at the same time on a parallel track on how this program can be sustainable and looking at different financing models, there are different pilots happening in other countries. And so we're focusing on how we can build the sustainable infrastructure to keep these payments ongoing, especially for this uptick of the population. So we will definitely keep you all posted on that.

CO: Mayor Brown, I wish you good luck and success with your program. And I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

AB: Thank you so very much for having me.

CH: Aja Brown is the mayor of Compton, California. And you can find more on that story on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Metallica Whiskey

CH: They say it has a warming buttercream mouth-feel that rolls through to almond, nugget, and pear. But the new whiskey also just tastes like metal and strings and brass and timpani. I can tell you right now it'll just taste like whiskey to me, which means like someone mixed a teaspoon of maple syrup into a gallon of varnish. So I'm not going to taste almond or nugget. And I have my doubts that anyone will taste the metal or the strings even if the makers of the new Blackened American Whiskey insist that is sonically enhanced. It's the new whiskey launched by Metallica to commemorate the release of their latest live album recorded with an orchestra. We just heard a few seconds of it. And that's where the notes of metal strings, brass and timpani come in. The distiller's actually played that album to the whiskey. The press release says the whiskeys were put in brandy casks and pummeled to the low hertz frequencies of Metallica's music. As un-thing like as that sounds, it is in fact a thing among distillers. Apparently, loud music creates waves in the casks which bring the whiskey into greater contact with the wood. Well, I hope true connoisseurs can really taste the Metallica, but I know I won't. I just don't have the palate for it, so I'll stick with the music that flavoured it. You know, the original cask recording.

[Music]

Andrew Burke

CH: Alberta's Andrew Burke plays the lottery regularly. So at first it might seem unfair that when he finally won, he had to split the prize. Except that he had to split it with himself. Recently, Mr. Burke bought two identical lotto 649 tickets by mistake. Same numbers on both tickets. And when those numbers won, Andrew Burke ended up going 50/50 with Andrew Burke. He told the CBC about the moment he learned the slightly confusing news.

ANDREW BURKE: I walked up to the lady at Fast Gas in Calamar. I have to say, they're a great bunch and they're really nice people. I handed her the tickets and said, can you check me these, please? She puts the first one in and all hell lets loose, the bloody machine locks off and they print off the claim part of it and the lady behind the counter starts counting and Darren the owner walks in and says, Andy, have you broke my machine? I said I have no idea what the hell's happening. They said that's 2.5 million. You've won 2.5 million. So I say, well, you better check their other card because that's another winner. And I ended up winning the five million. And they were really excited. But I have to admit, I was very calm.

MARK CONNOLLY: Were you?

ANDREW BURKE: Very calm. In fact, I said I'm in the way here. They said, well, come and sit on this stool here by this freezer. I just sat there while they ran around, you know, making phone calls and the such. And so, yes, I was very very calm, as I drove home. And then, of course, the wife has to be told. Well, I suppose so. [Chuckles] After 42 years of marriage, I think I'd better tell her. So I phoned her up at work, asked how long she'd be. Just a normal conversation. How long are you going to be? Do you want to bring in supper? Yes. Okay. So when she came home, I told her, just put this stuff on the side in the kitchen and come and sit down. Of course, what went through her mind was, please quit, he's had enough, quit work. So she sits down and I said to her, Do you remember when we got married -- your father's speech? And she thought, oh, now, what's he bought? And he says, remember what he said, I always wanted my daughter to marry a millionaire -- I got the next best thing. A man who spends money like a millionaire. And she says, you haven't. I have. I said, we've won five million.

MARK CONNOLLY: Now, did you quit your job?

ANDREW BURKE: Of course I did.

MARK CONNOLLY: [Laughter] Of course. What about your lovely wife? Is she still going to work?

ANDREW BURKE: She's still working, yes. She's probably working until the end of the month or something like that. Well, then we are both retired. But I was and still am sort of down -- not down as in depressed, but down as in, it's like a whole weight taken off your shoulders. So now my house is mine. I'll buy the wife a new car. I've got an old 1965 Land Rover that I want restoring. And that's what I can have now. And there's not a lot of stress. So I didn't sort of go, wow, you know what? I can buy that 911 turbo Porsche.

MARK CONNOLLY: Right.

ANDREW BURKE: Well, what good is it to me? I'm 63 and have two bad knees and a bad back and I couldn't get in it. We're very level-headed people, so it's just a matter of lets have the essentials. What's old, we can upgrade. And then we can just go wherever we want to.

CH: That was Alberta lottery winner Andrew Burke speaking with Mark Connolly, the host of Edmonton AM today.

[Music]

Part 3: Uganda female taxis

Uganda female taxis

Guest: Gillian Kobusingye

CH: If you're the kind of person who requests a quiet ride, you probably wouldn't want your taxi driver to be a diva unless it was Mariah Carey or Celine Dion. And even then, midway through a smartphone shattering rendition of Emotions or My Heart Will Go On, you might just ask her to pull over -- even if you're on the highway. But the divas who've recently started driving cabs in Uganda won't headline in Vegas anytime soon. They are, for the most part, out of work women. Women like Gillian Kobusingye. She found a Diva Taxi after her income disappeared in the economic crash brought on by COVID-19. We reached Ms. Kobusingye in Kampala.

CO: Gillian, first of all, how are you feeling after you had to close your shop earlier this year?

GILLIAN KOBUSINGYE: Oh god, I was devastated. I actually got serious depression, I should say, because I had to deal with so many bills that didn't have an income to cater for them. So it was really terrible. I don't even know how to express it. It was so bad. It was really bad being at home. Doing nothing was really, really devastating. It was terrible. I should tell you, it was the worst feeling ever.

CO: What gave you the idea then to start this all-female ride hailing service?

GK: Will my textile business, we get items from China and I have a group of ladies that help me distribute the bulk purchases. So when that business closed, the easiest business I saw at that time was transportation. And then I said, why don't start we our own transportation business? Even with our stock we can still hope people get services.

CO: And so delivering people and not goods. And so you came up with Diva Taxi. Are the women divas?

GK: Yes, they are. [Laughs] Yes, they are. Yes, they are. We actually have even a group that we started two years ago called Diva Empire on Facebook. It's specifically our motivation page for ladies out there. So I did it two years ago to motivate people out there. We have a lot of stuff going on in Uganda and especially as single moms and the page was created to motivate people. So when this idea came up, I didn't see a better name but to use Diva. So that's how we ended up with Diva Taxi.

CO: What made you think that there was a place for women taxi drivers? Is there a special kind of service that provides that didn't exist before?

GK: Honestly, I was just sure. I was just sure because the team I work with and I myself am a very aggressive person and I never said no to hard things. So I didn't see how hard that was until we started, because when the other team that's doing this, they really had a lot of questions like how do you do this business? But it was a matter of sitting down and taking them through and telling them how possible it is. I mean, I multitask. So through that, I teach people on how to get by the day using the same method I use. I wasn't scared. I was very sure I was going to bring it on board. I was really positive, super positive. And I'm very happy that the team of ladies didn't let me down because they took up the concept really fast.

CO: Now, are there women in Kampala who would rather be in a taxi with a female driver?

GK: Yes, of course. Our clients are more comfortable with us, and most especially family clients and company clients. They feel they're safer with us, especially with their children, especially with their shopping and deliveries. They feel safe because a lady would not treat you in a very improper manner compared to the other genders. So, yeah, our customers feel very comfortable with our lady drivers because they've worked with some of them before and they really like the way the service is delivered.

CO: Does Diva Taxi take male customers? Do you drive men as well?

GK: Yes, we do. Diva Taxi is a service for the entire community. We don't have any bias about the male gender. We take both male and female. It's a community service facility, so it's open to everybody.

CO: But you have been providing your drivers with some self-defense lessons. Is there some concern about their safety and driving in these taxis?

GK: That came up after [inaudible] because our drivers operate online 24/7. They are easily trackable. And we have a special, dedicated police line that helps us in case of an emergency. At first, we hadn't taken it so serious until somebody say, hey, someone could take advantage of the fact that it's a female driver. So guess what? You need to have this in vote. And yeah with a team of trainers we have on board, we incorporated it there and we made sure apart from the basic training that we're getting, which had incorporated self-defense.

CO: Now, you started with just your small group of divas. How many women are now driving for you?

GK: We're now so far 82 drivers only in Kampala, unfortunately. And then we have 31 new registrants that do not have cars. So we've been fortunate that we have some people who come and tell us, "Oh hi. I saw you and I like your initiative. I have an extra car, can I give it to one of your drivers to drive and make a living?" So we're very happy that right now we have a 110 drivers. 81 that have cars and the 31 that don't have cars.

CO: How important is it for those women and yourself that they now have an income?

GK: From my side, I don't want to say I have officially broken even. But yes, these ladies, as I say, they're really passionate and hardworking. We have four streams of income. I deal with taxi and I'm very happy that every day someone has something to take back. As I see all, I feel very privileged that a person came into office, didn't have a job, didn't have money to feed her four children, she makes at least a hundred thousand on a daily. And that in Uganda is really good money because at least that can cater for your hospital bills and for your home bills. So it gives me great joy that those ladies are actually making it.

CO: Well, Gillian, congratulations on this. You've turned things around. And it's great to speak with you. Thank you.

GK: Thank you so much. And thank you so much for having us on your show.

CH: Gillian Kobusingye is the founder of Diva Taxi. She was in Kampala, Uganda.

[Music]

Joe Vipond

CH: People in Edmonton and Calgary have been living relatively restriction free since the beginning of Canada's second wave, at least compared to residents of some other big cities. But now Alberta's top doctor says the province is entering a danger zone with COVID-19 cases at an all-time high, higher even than they were at the peak of the first wave. So far, officials have not imposed any new measures. But at least one Calgary E.R. doctor is calling on Premier Jason Kenney to do more and fast. Dr. Joe Vipond spoke to the CBC about his concerns.

JOE VIPOND: Well, let's look at the voluntary restrictions up in Edmonton right now. They're saying let's voluntary limit indoor activities to less than 15 people. It's voluntary to have people wear masks in the workplace. And voluntary, decrease people's cohorts to three. So those are all great ideas. But why are they all voluntary? Can anybody point to anywhere in the world where voluntary restrictions have worked? We know that the super spreader event happened in Calgary where more than 40 people have been turned positive from a single wedding event. That didn't have to happen. You know, there's been some people online vilifying these people for hosting this event. They were just following the rules. The premier has said we can't mandate our way out of a pandemic. He said it multiple times. And unfortunately, our public health officials report to the government. And the reality is, is the mandates are really the only way to get out of a pandemic. So it's exactly the opposite to what our premier is saying.

DAVID GRAY: And what the premier saying and what Dr. Hinshaw are saying, and they are in lockstep on this one, is that this not just about our physical health -- it's about our mental health as well. There are concerns our economy can't handle another shutdown. There's concerns how people are actually reacting to these restrictions. Are those not strong enough reasons to keep the status quo?

JOE VIPOND: I 100 percent agree. This is the hammer and the dance. I don't know if you've heard those terms before. We're still early on in the exponential curve growth. This is the opportunity to put in less stringent restrictions. If we let it get out of control, I guarantee you David, the restrictions are coming. They're going to be worse. They're going to be longer. And our economy and mental health can be more impacted. This is not about having to choose between economy and mental health and COVID restrictions. This is about acting smart so that we limit the damage to all aspects of our society.

CH: Dr. Joe Vipond on speaking with David Gray, host of the Calgary Eyeopener this morning.

[Music]

Philippe Frowd

CH: Heated debate has been taking place at the University of Ottawa over a professor's use of a racial slur. The teacher was suspended earlier this year after using the N-word in class as an example of a term that had been reclaimed by a community. She later apologized. On a return to work on Friday, a group of professors signed a letter of support for her -- defending her academic freedom. That prompted condemnation from some students and staff who say there should be zero tolerance for the word. Philippe Frowd is a black professor at the university. He did not sign the letter, and he explained his views to the CBC's Catherine Cullen on Ottawa Morning.

CATHERINE CULLEN: I'd like to understand your perspective on the issue that is at the core of this. Do you think it is ever appropriate to use the N-word in an academic setting, be it by student or teacher?

PHILIPPE FROWD: I don't think it is never appropriate in that respect, but I do think that the context in which it is are extremely limited. And I think that they are limited in the sense that we have to be very very careful before we explore that particular context and whether we want to go in that direction. Certainly for me as a Black person, I would find it extremely difficult to raise that in my classroom, especially spoken. I think it might be different if we were reading a text that contained the word that was particularly important. And so I think that I find it difficult to say never, zero percent. But I think that, you know, we have a certain freedom and latitude in an academic setting to make those choices. I just think those choices should involve a great degree of care.

CATHERINE CULLEN: What do you say to students who feel hurt and degraded by this and want a zero tolerance policy?

PHILIPPE FROWD: Well, I would say that's pretty understandable. I think it's an understandable sentiment. And I think that to have a policy like that would be relatively consistent with the public pronouncements, certainly by the university leadership and by many of my colleagues and from students that the university is committed to a relatively anti-racist stance in terms of how that plays out in the classroom. The problem is that there is, to some degree, a little bit of attention with the freedom that people have in terms of crafting their courses. And so I would have a slight concern in the sense that zero tolerance has some kind of potential infringement on the latitude that instructors have in their teaching.

CATHERINE CULLEN: Do you have one piece of advice, closing thought for the university community as it tries to move forward in this discussion?

PHILIPPE FROWD: Yes, I think that the reassertion of academic freedom throughout this, even though in many cases is potentially a clunky thing. I think that's important to reassert that, because I think that there's a lot of pressure from outside that sees universities as kind of bastions of cancel culture. But I think that the direction the discussion is going is positive because everyone is using their right to free expression and using it extremely extremely well, including the students.

CH: University of Ottawa Professor Philippe Frowd speaking to Catherine Cullen on the CBC's Ottawa Morning.

[Music]

Slow loris research

Guest: Anna Nekaris

CH: The slow loris is objectively adorable, with its cute big round eyes and tiny little nose. You just want to pick it up and snuggle it. But that's when it bites you and its toxic venom rots your flesh. I know, disappointing and significantly worse than disappointing if it sinks its teeth into you. And now new research is shedding light on how the slow loris uses this exceptional, horrifying weapon. Anna Nekaris has been studying the endangered primate for almost three decades now. She's a professor in primate conservation at Oxford Brookes University. And we reached her in Oxford, England.

CO: Professor Nekaris, these are aggressive little creatures, aren’t' they? Just how damaging is that venom?

ANNA NEKARIS: Well, the venom can kill insects or parasites. It can kill mice. It can even kill a human.

CO: That's hard to reconcile with how cute these little creatures are.

AN: Well, they're nocturnal, so they have really large eyes, so they look cute to us. But in fact, if you were to compare them to a cobra, they have the same markings as the hood of a cobra. So they look dangerous to lots of other animals.

CO: Yikes. Well, it was known, I guess, that they are venomous, right? That's not news.

AN: Correct. Yeah.

CO: What did you discover about how they use their venom?

AN: Well, we conducted the first ever study to try to understand the function of the venom. And everyone thought it would be potentially for predation or to eat foods like small mammals or other insects that are dangerous. But we were very surprised that they actually use it frequently in competition with other slow lorises. The platypus also does that, but it's only the males and it's only during the breeding season. Whereas our animals do it all year round, no matter what their age and no matter what their sex.

CO: So they attack each other. I mean, just to give us a sense of what this is about, what kind of attacks are we talking about?

AN: So they're incredibly territorial and they have resources, which is the food they eat that they can defend. They eat gum trees. And so they have a home range, an area where they live and they patrol the borders of that home range. And if another animal should enter the home range, they have an incredibly vicious fight. They cannot jump, that's why they're called the slow loris. And they hang from their rear legs, they grapple each other. And one of their main areas they go for is the head. They try to bite each other's heads. So they have their arms clamped over their heads. It's almost impossible to take their arm off their head. They're really strong and they swing and hiss at each other and bite each other and throw each other out of trees.

CO: What does it do when they get infected with this venom?

AN: The process is called necrosis. So you actually have a process where you may have quite a small hole in the first day after a fight and then after a day or two, it expands until the flesh on their head can rot off, even revealing the skull, for example. And it's one of the number one causes of death in zoos and also in rescue centres because they're heavily traded as pets, because they're so cute.

CO: But how do they prevent them from, I guess, damaging their goods once they've been taken as potential pets?

AN: So slow lorises is have incredibly strong teeth that allows them to eat tree gums so they can gouge into a trunk as big as their own body, practically. So they're very, very strong and that's how they inject their venom. It's with all their lower teeth and those are clipped out with nail clippers, ripped out with pliers, et cetera, with no anesthesia. Yeah.

CO: Oh, so awful. And just to go back to your study, you tracked 82 of these slow lorisess over eight years to figure this out. How did you do the study?

AN: So we are working in an area in Indonesia on the island of Java. And we look for the animals at night with a red head torch. And when we see one, we have an expert team that are local Indonesians from the area that are farmers. And they're very good at climbing trees. So lorises don't go into cages or traps. So we actually have to climb the tree and put them into a bag that you would catch a snake in. And then we measure them. We weigh them. And we put radio collars on them to follow them. And during this process, we also record any wounds that they have. We record how vicious they are when they're caught. And we actually do a scale of how much venom they're secreting when we catch them.

CO: And by this, you discovered that they were using this weapon to attack each other.

AN: So incredibly, 20 percent of the animals we caught over the last eight years had a wound. And that's of the animals we caught multiple times. When we just look at individuals, a third of our females and nearly half of our males at one point or another had a horrendous wound. And that's not very common in primates to be that wounded and have that many individuals being wounded. We also looked at how territorial they were with an index that you use, which kind of looks at how they overlap with their neighbours. And they're incredibly incredibly possessive of the places where they live.

CO: Are both the males and the females venomous?

AN: Yes. And both of them are venomous from a young age. So the young animals also are venomous. And the youngest animals are also the fiercest ones. It's as if they don't know yet how to control their venomous natures. So they're really, really, really cute and really evil. And because, again, they had this incredibly strong jaws, when they bite you or another loris, they hold on very very tight. And even when I started studying slow lorises, I was advised the only way to get them off me if they bit me was to put my fingers over their nostrils [makes gasping sound] so they went and gasp for air, which is actually a good trick.

CO: Did you ever have to do that?

AN: Many times.

CO: You were bitten by these creatures?

AN: Yes. But I generally wear gloves. So the gloves absorbed quite a bit of the venom. And I also have a trick where I have gloves that are about an inch too long for my fingers. So I kind of present that part of the glove to the loris, let them bites the glove, and then I do all my measurements while they feel like they're biting me.

CO: That is very risky.

AN: Oh, we have epi pens with us because the main problems that happen to humans are anaphylactic shock. So we have epi pens at the ready. But also if they were to bite you without a glove, the other problem is necrosis. So we've done a couple of studies reviewing people who've been bitten by lorises and some people have never been able to use, for example, a finger ever again after the loris has bitten it because the joints stopped work, for example.

CO: Are they a protected species?

AN: They are protected in every country across their range. There's nine species of slow loris. We are studying the most endangered one, which is the Javan loris. And there are very few left. There's very little forest left. And so the heart of our project is a conservation project. But the venom happens to be very very interesting and can be helpful for their conservation because hopefully people don't want it as a pet when they know that its bite could be so damaging.

CO: Very cute and very evil. Well put. Professor Nekaris.

AN: Thank you. All right. Thank you so much.

CH: Anna Nekaris is a professor in primate conservation at Oxford Brookes University. We reached her in Oxford, England.

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October 21, 2020 Episode Transcript

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