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The Current Transcript for October 13, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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VOICE: Chairman Mao asked a lot of questions about Canada, its production, particularly of agricultural goods. He was very interested in our northern reaches, questions relating to the Arctic.

MATT GALLOWAY: 50 years ago today, the Canadian government recognized the People's Republic of China. Canada's relationship with China was controversial then. A half century later, what's changed? And with two Canadians languishing in a Chinese prison, what should our relationship be like with that country now? We'll discuss in 30 minutes. Also this morning.

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VOICE: There is a system that has failed and continues to fail. Indigenous people's, the health care system failed Joyce Echaquan and her family.

MG: Federal ministers say the insults hurled at an indigenous woman as she lay dying in a Quebec hospital were an example of systemic racism in health care. It's not the first example of that. So now that it's named it, what's the government going to do about it? Indigenous Services Minister Marc Miller is here in an hour. Plus, a pandemic diary from a traveller who lived the lockdown from hotspot to hotspot. We begin though with a conversation about leadership on and off the basketball court. Toronto Raptors coach Nick Nurse, the NBA Coach of the Year, starts us off. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

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Raptors coach Nick Nurse says it's a good thing Black Lives Matter has become a bigger part of our lives

Guest: Nick Nurse

MG: Well, the Lakers won the NBA championship this weekend, ending the longest basketball season in history. But you'll forgive me if I'd rather dwell on this.

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[Clip of Toronto Raptors 2019 NBA championship victory]

MG: Still sounds great. Do you remember where you were when that happened? The Raptors being crowned NBA champions was a win for a country, not just a city. And the man who helmed that team is Nick Nurse. For a guy from Carroll, Iowa, to be steering the We The North ship is quite the journey, one he tells in a great new book called Rapture: Fifteen Teams, Four Countries, One NBA Championship and How to Find a Way to Win Damn Near Anywhere. Nick Nurse, the NBA coach of the year, is with me now. Coach, good morning.

NICK NURSE: Good morning, Matt. How are you?

MG: I'm well, thanks. I remember that moment. Our windows were open, you could hear the cheering from across the city as that game ended. How does it feel for you to hear that moment now?

NICK NURSE: It feels cool, Matt. It really does. I think that when you were doing it, right in the middle of it, you didn't really, you didn't really get all that, you know, all the Jurassic Parks all over the country, all the like you mentioned, the windows open, people in the streets. You didn't really get it because you were kind of in your own little world there trying to get it done and to hear those sounds and hear everybody's where were you when it happened stories are meaningful. They really are really something.

MG: Was it a little painful watching this year's finals from the sidelines?

NICK NURSE: Yeah, it was. I didn't watch much of the playoffs when we got done. In fact, I didn't watch one of the Celtics-Heat game, that series. I was still upset that we weren't playing. Took me to about Game 4, I think, of the finals to finally switch it on. I watched Game 4, Game 5 and about half of Game 6. And about at halftime, I texted Kyle Lowry and said, well, the reigning, we got about an hour to go here on reigning champs because this one, this one's over, so let's enjoy it. He said, well, I'm actually out celebrating right now. So it was a little painful to watch it, but we had a good season. We did a good job. We gave everything we had this year and it just didn't bounce our way this time around.

MG: Is LeBron James the greatest of all time?

NICK NURSE: He's right there, man. I think it's one-two, you know, or one-one. I think him and Jordan are right there. I grew up, you know, watching Jordan. Right? And it's hard when that's kind of your era to leave his greatness. Six finals and six titles and six finals MVP. But LeBron's something else, there's no doubt about it.

MG: This and you don't need me to tell you, this was a weird season. Long, for one thing and then the season stops suddenly because of this pandemic, then resumes without fans in the stands and with the teams living in this bubble. What was that bubble like for you?

NICK NURSE: Well it was OK. I mean, listen, I was certainly happy to be back working. I thought there was a lot of good things to it. The basketball setting, the coaching perspective, everything along those lines was done at a super high level and was and was there for us to play our best. You know, it wasn't that fun just being in the same kind of like dorm room for three straight months and not being able to really leave and getting tested every day and all those things. But listen, I thought I thought it was good to be able to go back to work. I thought people around the world needed sports, you know, even if it was just on TV to watch it, as some positivity. So there was a lot of good to it.

MG: In the midst of this and there are questions even before the bubble was formed as to whether players should go into it, the season resumes during this reckoning around anti-black racism and the killing of unarmed African-Americans by police. How do you think the NBA handled that moment?

NICK NURSE: I thought they were great, Matt. I really do.

MG: How so?

NICK NURSE: Well, I just think that they gave the players a platform. You know, there is a platform there, obviously, with how much media attention the league has. But I think they gave it to the players. I think the players were amazing in their voicing their concerns. I think the platforms, again, like we had very open and candid discussions with our players. Nothing to do with basketball, just ideas and how we can make the world a better place, especially in this area. I think they did a great job with it, Matt.

MG: What's your role in this? As a white guy who's leading a team predominantly of black men, in a moment like this, what was your role there?

NICK NURSE: Well, I think first and foremost, Matt, it was to get our guys together, communicate with them. You know, either via Zoom or once we got together, you know, get in a room and and just let everybody speak. And it was interesting to hear some of their stories about some of their run-ins they had with law enforcement, growing up in the States or wherever. And I think there was a closeness of things that were shared that probably wouldn't have been shared. You know, my job was to lead them, to give them, you know, again, a voice to listen to them, put their arm around them if I need to, to help them with their ideas going forward of things they wanted to get done and be part of their group, you know.

MG: Have the events of the last year or so made you a more political person, do you think?

NICK NURSE: Yeah, I think so. I think so, yeah.

MG: How so?

NICK NURSE: Well, I think that these events get pushed onto the forefront of everybody's mind, right? I think, I hope it made everybody more political and everybody trying to learn and educate themselves more, etc. I just think it became part of life. Right? Like the pandemic became part of life, you had to start educating yourself on what to do and then Black Lives Matter became part of our lives a little bit more. And it's a good thing. It needed to be.

MG: What's at stake? As an American living here in Canada, some of the time, most of the time, what's at stake, do you think, for your country in this election?

NICK NURSE: Oh man.I mean, listen, I'm concerned. I think there's a lot of division. And it's I'm concerned about the next couple of weeks and concerned about the results of the election and then things that may happen in the immediate aftermath of that. I don't know. I just like I, I think, like with any team, Matt, or any country, people need to be more together and there seems to be a lack of togetherness right now in the United States.

MG: Part of this is about leadership. And this book is it's really interesting because there's a lot of basketball stories, but there are a lot of stories just about what it means to be a leader. And being a coach means, you know, winning more than losing, ideally, if you're a successful coach. But beyond that, what does it mean to be a good coach in your mind?

NICK NURSE: I think it's just helping your players and your staff realize their hopes and dreams, right? I always talk about, Matt, increasing their player's value in the marketplace or increasing my coaching, my assistant coaches, coaching staff's value in the marketplace. Everybody's got dreams and ambitions and where they want to go and I see my job as being a facilitator and a leader to helping them trying to get there.

MG: In the book, you quote somebody named Darrell Mudra. Who's Darrell Mudra?

NICK NURSE: Darrell Mudra was the American football coach at the University of Northern Iowa. When I was going to school there playing basketball at the university. He was the football coach.

MG: He talks about the idea of surrendering control as a coach and unleashing creativity. How do you go about doing that? The assumption is if you're the coach, you're the boss and you're gonna do what I say because I'm the coach and you're the player. How do you go about, you laugh when I say that. How do you go about doing that?

NICK NURSE: Well, I'm laughing. I'm sure glad that I ran into Darrell Mudra and studied his things when I was in college because he was way ahead of his time. Right. He was an American football coach. And, you know, you always see those guys patrolling the sidelines like you said, and do it my way. And well, he coached from the press box because he believed, giving his assistant coach, his offensive coordinator, defence coordinator, kind of control of the game, and he was just up above if anything they needed, he would radio down to him or whatever. And that's, you know, that's kind of the way I see it. I lay out a vision. I try to put out a plan that I let my assistant coaches coach because they're talented. They've studied and worked hard for years and years at this game and it only makes them better to get out there and do it and then I let the players play. Again, we put in a structure and a framework, but we leave lots of room for freedom so people can show their creativity. And what I always say, show me something really special or spectacular.

MG: There's a humility that's in that. Where does that come from? Because, again, the temptation I think you're the boss. You could just tell people what to do. This is the plan, this is what we're going to run in this play. Where does that humility come from?

NICK NURSE: I don't know, I guess probably someone from my parents. But for me, it's just not any fun doing it my way or the highway. That just doesn't seem fun to me. The way we do it together, work, work together and do it as a group and you know, obviously you are still the head coach and you have to make some tough decisions. There's pressure decisions that need to be made by somebody sometimes and that falls on me. That's what the head coach does. But to me, it's just much more fun to do it this way.

MG: You are now the NBA Coach of the Year, which is a remarkable achievement. Congratulations on that.

NICK NURSE: Thank you.

MG: But you have worked in the hinterlands of pro basketball where I think people would be surprised to learn that there is pro basketball. Who were the Brighton Bears?

NICK NURSE: Well, the Brighton Bears are team in the British Basketball League. Yeah, I went over to England. That's where everybody goes to learn how to coach basketball.

MG: How big is the British Basketball League?

NICK NURSE: It's not very big, it's not very good. It's not very well funded, Matt. There's teams coming and going all the time. There's, it's a struggle over there for whatever reason to get basketball on the map. But it's where I ended up and and wanted to find out if I was any good at coaching and wanted to study the game. And then I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it.

MG: What did you learn in coaching the Brighton Bears?

NICK NURSE: Well, I learned a lot of stuff. You know, some of this stuff that I tried in the NBA finals or NBA games this year, I originally would test over there and in in England, whether it was a box and one or a triangle and two or a different zone defence or a press defence or certain plays that I was dreaming up that everybody told me you couldn't in a million years, you couldn't do in the NBA. Well that's where some of the stuff I was doing over there. I learned a lot.

MG: What did you learn from coaching Dennis Rodman? Dennis Rodman played for a blink of an eye for the Brighton Bears.

NICK NURSE: He played for three games for us. I didn't learn a whole lot that helped myself, but I learned a lot about him. He was amazing. Like, you know, you can tell guys that really know how to play the game. Like he walked onto the floor and like, caught the ball and threw a beautiful backdoor pass, the first possession, and then he took a charge on the defensive end the next possession. Like you could just see this guy who hadn't hardly played in I don't know how long. He'd just come out, he'd just come out of the Big Brother house in England, you know, the television show.

MG: Like the TV show Big Brother?

NICK NURSE: Yeah, he just came out of Big Brother, which is part of the reason my team signed him. And he just started playing like he'd been playing, you know, like the great player he was. That was interesting to see.

MG: Your time with the Brighton Bears does not end all that well.

NICK NURSE: Yup.

MG: Did you, what did that, I mean part of it's about winning, but, you know, you learn things from losing as well. What did you learn from how that experience ended?

NICK NURSE: Well, I think that, you know, no matter how some things end, endeavours end, you know, a business thing ends, a game ends, a season ends, that you gotta, you know, there's a getting over it period. And then you gotta get over that and get back to work. You know, you got to pick yourself up off the floor and get back to doing the things you really believe in, you know, which which for me is positivity. A lot of positive, surrounded myself with a lot of positivity, pumping my mind with a lot of positivity, continuing to study and learn. And then you know getting out of bed and going to work and, you know, going to work early in the morning and putting in long days. That's what I believe in, work ethic and being positive and continuing to grow and learn.

MG: Did you considered quitting coaching after that?

NICK NURSE: No, I considered quitting right right away, back about 95-96, my first year in England when I was coaching the Birmingham Bullets. My team was 8-8, and I didn't think I was any good at it. I was sitting there and I was like, what am I doing over here? You know, I'm not making any money and I'm away from my family. And I went over there to try to learn how to coach and it wasn't going very well. And I went and sat down in my hotel room and wrote down about four other things that I thought about doing, instead of coaching and they all looked like absolute shit to me.

MG: Pardon your language there.

NICK NURSE: Yeah absolutely, you know, whatever. And then I said, I better get to work and become a better coach because I love the game and I really loved the game and loved to coach.

MG: Nick Nurse, I want you to listen to something. Have a listen to this.

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[Clip of music by Thelonious Monk]

MG: Nick Nurse, what are we listening to right now?

NICK NURSE: It's Thelonious Monk.

MG: What do you love about Thelonious Monk?

NICK NURSE: Well, that he kind of changed the music world with playing such improv jazz, you know and again really, really cool. I just think it's cool to listen to. It's really, really different. And he was kind of one of the guys in the forefront of doing it way back when.

MG: What do you see as the connection between, I mean you have portraits of him in your office. You play piano, you love music. What do you see as the connection between jazz in particular and what Monk was able to do and what you try to engineer on the basketball court?

NICK NURSE: Yeah, it's really similar. Matt, I think it's when I'm looking at our offence, you know, we've got a group of guys, not not unlike a jazz band that's getting ready to to go perform and there's some structure. We kind of know what we're doing. There's a song, and we start in and we start going, but again, we leave tons of room for freedom, for guys to be able to show some of the spectacular things that they can do. And for them just to do it, man, you know, like the spectacular plays of Pascal Siakam and Kawhi Leonard and some of these guys, Freddie Van Vleet, Norman Powell, these guys all get, Kyle Lowry, they all get space to do that stuff and that's where I see the comparison.

MG: It's like that idea and you talk about this in the book, what a critic says that you know the space between things, the cracks is where everything lives in his music. Is that what you see?

NICK NURSE: It's what I'm trying to say with it, Matt. You know, that's the way I feel. I feel they can't be robots and I feel I can't make them make them play in such a rigid environment. Again, it's not any fun or it's not as much fun. And I just don't think you're going to see the spectacular and that's what I'm after. I'm after taking these guys to places that they don't even think they can go.

MG: But also taking them, I mean you took the Raptors to go and see Hamilton, the musical Hamilton. You took the Canadian national team to see West Side Story. What happens, why would you do something like that?

NICK NURSE: Well, again, I think that, you know, from my own personal side, Matt, like I study music and play the piano and I'm trying to learn the guitar and I'm you know I do it to kind of force creativity on onto myself. Right like I take lessons and stuff and try to grow what I'm doing musically and hopefully that transfers to my job because I want to stay creative. I want to think of new ideas on the basketball floor and whether I'm right or not. I believe I'm right, it helps me. Right? And again, I just think that there's a lot of creativity out there in the world and I want the players to see some of that.

MG: You have this improbable story in which, as I said, you come from Carroll, Iowa. You end up coaching in a league that most people don't even know exists and then other leagues that people would be surprised to learn exist. And suddenly you're the Coach of the Year and you're the coach of the NBA champion Toronto Raptors. What should, not just Raptors fans and basketball fans, but what should readers take from your journey, do you think?

NICK NURSE: Well, I think this, Matt, and I mean I read a little bit about your story and you probably along the same lines, I think those jobs, when you're younger and when you're beginning, you're staring out, you love them. Man, you love them, right? You put your heart and soul into them, at that time in your life, they mean the world to you. And that's all I was trying to do, was love the game, love the process of getting better. I was trying to each and every season I was trying to find a way to become better. And if I was ever gonna get a shot at a really big time job, I wanted to be ready for it. And that's about as simple as I can wrap it up for you right there. Love the job you're in, give that job everything you have and it'll prepare you for something bigger down the road.

MG: You have a big time job now and congratulations on your success. Raptors fans are anticipating big things from the team next year, but we'll get to that down the line. In the meantime, Nick Nurse, thank you.

NICK NURSE: Thanks a lot, Matt.

MG: Nick Nurse, head coach of the Toronto Raptors and the NBA Coach of the Year. His new book is out today. It's about basketball, but a lot more as well. It's called Rapture: Fifteen Teams, Four Countries, One NBA Championship and How to Find a Way to Win Damn Near Anywhere. The CBC News is next. And then.

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VOICE: China itself has admitted that there is a direct link between the detention of Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor and the arrest in an extradition process of Meng Wanzhou.

MG: 50 years after Canada established relations with China, what should that relationship look like now? We'll discuss. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current on CBC Radio One.

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Canada marks 50 years since establishing relations with China

Guest: Jeremy Kinsman, Margaret McCuaig-Johnston

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, the Minister of Indigenous Services, Marc Miller, on what the government is doing in the wake of the death of Joyce Echaquan. But first, friends or foes? Fifty years of Canadian Chinese relations.

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VOICE: I leave Peking tonight, Mr. Premier, heartened with the agreements we have reached, cheered by the frankness and fullness of our discussions, grateful for the hospitality you have accorded our party.

MG: Former Prime Minister Pierre Elliot Trudeau at the end of his historic trip to the People's Republic of China in 1973. It was the first official visit to the country by a Canadian prime minister. And today, in fact, marks 50 years since Canada formally recognized the People's Republic of China. At the time, it was a highly controversial move. The U.S. did not recognize the regime in Peking, as it was known then, and its leadership was not seated at the United Nations. My next guest was a young Canadian diplomat during the fateful negotiations that led to that joint declaration. He went on to serve as a Canadian ambassador for 15 years, including to Russia, the UK and the European Union. Jeremy Kinsman joins me from Victoria, British Columbia. Jeremy Kinsman, good morning.

JEREMY KINSMAN: Hi. Hi Matt.

MG: Take us back to that summer of 69 when the negotiations were going on.

JEREMY KINSMAN: Well, you know, ome years stand out, don't they? This is one we're living through now. 1968 and 1969 were extraordinary years. You know, it was not just a great cultural revolution going on in China, I mean, it was the assassinations in the United States. The cities were burning. It was the Russians. The Soviet Union invaded Prague. There was France. The whole kind of landscape of the world seemed to be unravelling. Of course, the summer of 69, when I was in Stockholm during that the beginning of those negotiations, it was also Neil Armstrong getting to the moon. So it wasn't all bad news, but it was a time of extraordinary change.

MG: What do you remember about those negotiations?

JEREMY KINSMAN: Well, I remember it was very fraught. I mean, Canada was breaking some ice that had been frozen for some time on who who was actually the legitimate government of China. And then and then just when people were getting coming around to recognise the obvious fact that the 800 million people that China were controlled by the government in Beijing. But we weren't, we weren't alone in wanting to do this. I mean, Belgium and Italy, were contemplating it as well. And de Gaulle had done so in 1964. But people were looking to us to how it was going to work, what the formula would be, particularly with respect to Taiwan, because it was obviously going to set some kind of a template for the future, for other people to do the same thing.

MG: What was the thinking behind taking that step?

JEREMY KINSMAN: Well, the thinking was that logic compelled recognition of the fact that the government of Beijing was the government of China and the United Nations membership was pretty rapidly coming to that conclusion. In Canada, it was Pierre Trudeau. I don't think it was ideological with any respect, it was pragmatic. He just felt that it was the logical thing to do.

MG: The talks are happening, well they're happening in the shadow of the Cultural Revolution. Millions died in that and I just wonder, was there concern that recognizing this regime would be seen as some sort of tacit endorsement of not it will happen when you say the shadow. Actually, it was winding down by then. Actually, the world didn't know that much about what was going on in China. There were so few foreigners in China at that time. And so what we know now, we didn't know then. But in any event, the important thing is Canada and most most countries followed the kind of British model of recognition of of, you know, diplomatic relations. There is no morality in it. It's simply a question of does this government have control of the country? And if so, you need to have diplomatic relations with governments that exist. You don't exclude some because you don't like them, you need to have them. So that was the premise.

MG: There were efforts to try to sabotage these negotiations. What was going on in the background?

JEREMY KINSMAN: Yeah, there was a lot of that's why I went there. I was a kid and I was at Brussels in between NATO and our fledge mission to the European Common Market. And I got set up there to try and lend and to figure out what what was going on with all this these these little disruptions. You know, people were turning up facsimiles of replicas of Canadian telegrams from our embassy that refer to the Chinese as deceitful and and derogatory, things like that. And who knows who was putting these out? I mean, it could have been obviously the nationalist government that I want. It could have been the American. It could have been lots of people, other stuff was happening. We had a guy come over. Of course, these negotiations, there were 14 sessions of drinking tea with a Chinese negotiator over a period of well over a year and they were kind of the talk of the town in Stockholm. And so Canadian visitors were watched with a lot of scrutiny and curiosity, interest and that they weren't all involved in this. I mean, there was one guy came over from external affairs, he was a decorator for a new residence for the ambassador. And he got met at the airport by a black limousine and a guy in a black suit holding up a card with his name and drove him into town. But he didn't get to town. He got hauled out of the car and beaten up halfway in. What was that about? You know, and these were just efforts to disrupt, to intimidate, to bother, to there was definitely hostility to on the part of some to the change that this would represent.

MG: Fast forward 50 years, there has been a real cooling of relations between Canada and China. The new Conservative leader, Erin O'Toole, has called on this country to take a much harder line and a much different approach to to dealing with China. What do you make of that approach?

JEREMY KINSMAN: Oh, you know, it's a cycle. China has changed. It change with Xi Jinping. We all know that he reasserted an awful lot more political control in China, and that bothers us a lot. They've been, you know, aggressive economically and expanding their influence. There's nothing wrong with expanding your influence. I mean, everybody's trying to do that, but they're accused of doing it by, you know, a certain amount of bullying and they've been just enormously successful. They're so successful. They're now challenging the United States for primacy economically in the world.

MG: Well part of that, what people would call bullying, is scooping up two Canadians: Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor and put them in a Chinese president.

JEREMY KINSMAN: Yeah, I would say that, yes, but that was in direct response to what they consider are scooping up Meng Wanzhou at YVR on behalf of the United States unilateral application of their law on Iran. What the Chinese did in reprisal was grotesque. No question about it.

MG: So in light of what you've called grotesque, what should Canada's relationship with China be now?

JEREMY KINSMAN: Well, China is a fact. I mean, it's there. It's about to be the biggest economy in the world. If we're going to succeed in the world, we got to have a relationship with that country. We don't like our values are challenged by stuff they're doing. Right now in Hong Kong it's not good. What they're doing to the Uyghurs. Their constant hostility to Tibet. You know, it goes on and on. But the world needs China to be part of agreements in the world that are countering the real threats, whether it's climate change or pandemics or you name it. And so we've got to cooperate in that sense. At the same time, as we compete with them economically and at the same time as we contest some of the things they're doing that challenge universal understandings or semi universal understandings of human rights.

MG: Does Canada hold any cards in that?

JEREMY KINSMAN: I don't, canada is Canada. We got to behave as a state. I think Joe Biden is going to win in November 3rd and it's going to be a little easier, maybe even with China. We'll see. I'm not saying it's going to be all lovey w of course not. I think that. But it's gonna be it's gonna be better all around. What are whether that if the United States is going to lead democracies in challenging some things about the way China is behaving, it's going to be obviously an awful lot more effective if it's not Donald Trump doing it.

MG: I was gonna say I just wonder whether that relationship between Canada and China can be anywhere close to normal while those Canadians remain in prison there?

JEREMY KINSMAN: No, it can't. We have to solve that.

MG: Jeremy Kinsman, it's a real pleasure to talk to you. You have some fascinating stories about what happened 50 years ago and where we may go in the next years. Thank you.

JEREMY KINSMAN: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Jeremy Kinsman was a young diplomat during the negotiations for Canada to recognize the People's Republic of China. He served as ambassador to Russia and the EU, as well as the High Commissioner in London. My next guest has worked hard over her 37 year career in government to advance the relationship between Canada and China. But now she has become an increasingly vocal critic of the Xi regime. Margaret McQuaig-Johnston is a senior fellow at the University of Ottawa with the China Institute at the University of Alberta. Margaret, good morning to you.

MARGARET MCCUAIG-JOHNSTON: Morning.

MG: We just heard Jeremy Kinsman describe the fanfare and the drama around Canada and China establishing relations 50 years ago. Is this an anniversary worth celebrating?

MARGARET MCCUAIG-JOHNSTON: No. As long as our Canadians are being held hostage and four more with execution sentences given to them, I don't think there's anything to celebrate. And that's really tragic. Certainly, Pierre Trudeau was absolutely right to recognize China in 1978 as reflecting the reality at that time. And Canada has been a friend of China for decades. Part of the reform and opening up in the 1980s and the big annual Team Canada visits that Prime Minister Chretien led in the 1990s. But no, we've seen a lot of changes in China under Xi Jinping in the last five years, I would say, it's really dramatically changed its role. But the kidnapping of our Canadians was really the last straw for many Canadians, including myself.

MG: Canada's, I want to talk about that in a moment, but just briefly, Canada's ambassador did manage to get these virtual consular visits with Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor over the weekend. The first time that they had news from the outside world after months of isolation. Is that an encouraging sign?

MARGARET MCCUAIG-JOHNSTON: Well, it's dealing with a big hole that we had in our relationship in terms of no consular visits at all. The coronavirus has really left China. So the fact that we can't have in-person meetings is still a big problem and they deserve to have in-person meetings. But, you know, our ambassador has been very strong in putting forward all of these points. He went himself to Dendong to try to see Michael Spavor and try to get in by being right on the spot. That was a terrific idea. Didn't work. But you know, it's great for the families that we saw the virtual visit last weekend. But that's there's certainly a long way to go in the relationship to try to address the problems that we've got now.

MG: You call this a kidnapping. Why was the detention of Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor such a turning point for you?

MARGARET MCCUAIG-JOHNSTON: Well, it's completely unjust and you know that it's in retaliation, obviously, for the arrest of Meng Wanzhou.And, you know, this is a hostage taking that we are certainly not just seeing all by ourselves. Other countries have been facing this to, you know, like Taiwan, Australia, Japan. They all have people hostage right now. So we're not alone. And in fact, Prime Minister, thanked President Trump just on Saturday for his attempts to have the immediate release of the Michaels and it's really hitting home because Beijing has instructed us to stop trying to get other countries to help us. They don't like being called out on their abnormal behaviour.

MG: You were in Shanghai at the time. Did you worry about your own safety?

MARGARET MCCUAIG-JOHNSTON: Well, yes, I was in Shanghai and my own locked suitcases in my hotel room were searched. And I was talking to a Chinese national at a meeting about the fact that our people had been kidnapped. And he said, oh, well, China's got a list of 100 Canadians that they can pick up and interrogate at any time. And when I got back to Canada, I heard, yes, there is such a list from from a number of people. Now, what other country does this? You know, this is not an appropriate strategy for international relations. And you know, I think critical of China kidnapping our people and the mass arrests of human rights defenders. I've spoken out against Huawei and 5G and so under China's new national security law for Hong Kong, I'm now at risk of being extradited to China to stand trial, if I happen to fly through one of the 55 countries that have an extradition agreement with China. And so, you know, this is a far reaching strategy that China now has to silence anyone who is critical.

MG: Should there be, given these two men in particular that are being held and people say that this is being done directly because Canada has detained the Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou. Should there be some sort of prisoner swap? John Manley, the former deputy prime minister, is amongst those saying, you know, let her go and that will urge China to release these two men. Is that something that Canada should even consider?

MARGARET MCCUAIG-JOHNSTON: Well, in fact, this is what Beijing is counting on. They're counting on Canadians to pressure our government to send her home. And the fact that prominent Canadians are doing it is the icing on the cake for them. And we all want our citizens returned to us. You know, I never gave an interview before last year when I started to speak out because somebody has got to speak out against this behaviour. But it doesn't mean that we should sell our soul and kowtow as low as possible by sending her home. That would just teach China to take more hostages whenever it wants a country to fall into line on anything. And some countries have caved in past and that's why China continues to do it. I think they're finding now that Canada isn't going to cave in and we're working with other countries to call China out on its actions.

MG: There are Chinese communities across this country, and many Chinese-Canadians have watched the worsening relations between our country and China with dismay. Our producer Anne Penman caught up with Bill Yee over dim sum in Vancouver. Bill Yee came to Canada from Canton, which is now known as Guangzhou, as a teenager, went on to become the first Chinese-Canadian elected to Vancouver City Council. Later, a provincial court judge. Have a listen to what he had to say.

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VOICE: As far as I can remember, Chinese have always had a very good view about Canadians because the story about Dr. Norman Bethune when he helped many Chinese people at a time of need. He was a Chinese hero. When I led a delegation of young Chinese Canadians to visit China in 1974, we had a huge reception. And the way they described it as friends from the homeland of Dr. Norman Bethune. We've got the red carpet treatment. So to me, it's very important, I want, as a Canadian one, to improve the relationship between the people of the two countries as well, because by increasing trade, I think both countries would benefit. It's too bad at this point in time the relationship between the two countries are not dispatched as effective as most challenging times. But I am optimistic that in the future, when the political problems that we are facing will eventually be resolved and the friendship between our two countries will continue to flourish. We don't have to think alike. As long as you have their mutual respect, obviously a country with that kind of population and the kind of difficulties that one have to run different from us. Also acknowledge the fact that our system is not perfect. Look at the homelessness that we have. Look at the drug addictions that we have. Look at many of the deficiencies we talk about in our political system have not been made any progress. What I'm saying, I'm not blaming anybody. I'm saying it's the system. Look at the US. Same thing. The gap between the left half and half not have not narrowed. It's become wider as a matter of fact. Doesn't that tell you something about our political system? I'm not saying it's easy. I don't have a solution for it. All I'm saying is when you assess a country or assess people, it's just like neighbours. You don't try to run their family for them because I know my family. You know your family. I have to respect the way you run yours. And likewise, I expect you to respect mine, while we're still good neighbours.

MG: That's Bill Yee, retired provincial court judge and former member of Vancouver City Council. Margaret McQuaig-Johnson, what do you think of that idea that we don't have to agree with China to have a good relationship?

MARGARET MCCUAIG-JOHNSTON: Well, and I think Mr. Yee makes a really good point that the people to people relationship between Canada and China is very strong. And we do need to treat one another with mutual respect. The problem we've run into is that China, that it's not the Chinese people, it's the Beijing regime is not treating Canada with respect. And in fact, last year they said that Canada is not a middle country. Canada is a small country and has to stop leaning towards the U.S. and, you know, no matter why Canada arrested Madam Meng, you did it and you have to be punished. That's not the attitude of a country that respects another country. And and so, you know, I think you have to recognize that this is driven by Xi Jinping himself and all of the problems with the militarization of the South China Sea in 2015, the mass arrests of human rights lawyers and environmentalists in 2016, the building of the the cultural genocide camps for the Uyghurs, the social credit system, which tracks what everybody is saying and punishes those that criticise the government. These are all just in the last five years. And so you it's we do need to distinguish between the Xi regime and the people of China. It's very disturbing to think that some Asian-Canadians are being yelled at and assaulted in connection, presumably with the coronavirus and the fact that China didn't get on top of that as it was being exported into other countries. And we also have the military threats of China against India and Taiwan. So there are a lot of problems in the relationship right now, but we are not alone and our government is working closely with other like-minded countries. They're talking about imposing thing sanctions under our Magnitsky legislation. We're looking at banning Huawei. I think we should go ahead and do that. And there have been some statements in the government that we should be diversifying away from China to other countries in the Indo-Pacific. And I think that would be an excellent idea, not just for trade and investment, but also population, health and security, science and technology. There are all kinds of things that Canada can be doing with other countries in the region, so that our companies are not so dependent on trade with China that could vanish overnight as we've seen this past year.

MG: We just have a few seconds left. I guess in some ways you agree with what Jeremy Kinsman was saying.

MARGARET MCCUAIG-JOHNSTON: I do, yess.

MG: That the relationship, I mean, is important, but the relationship can't be a relationship until at the very least, these two men are free?

MARGARET MCCUAIG-JOHNSTON: That's right. And frankly, I don't think any politician or official or business executive should be celebrating the 50th anniversary today with Chinese government officials. There's nothing to celebrate until we get our citizens home. And that is and should be a priority for the government. China's an important country, we'll continue to do business there, but we have to support our own values and our own citizens when they're travelling abroad.

MG: Margaret McCuaig-Johnston, it's great to speak with you again. Thank you.

MARGARET MCCUAIG-JOHNSTON: Good to talk to you.

MG: Margaret McCuaig-Johnston, a senior fellow in the Institute for Science Society and Policy at the University of Ottawa and the China Institute at the University of Alberta. Your thoughts on this welcome. You can email us thecurrent@cbc.ca, tweet us @TheCurrentCBC or head to the website cbc.ca/thecurrent. Click on the contact link. Your regional update is next. And then a conversation with the Minister of Indigenous Services, Marc Miller, on what the federal government is going to do in response to the tragic death of Joyce Echaquan. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current. And we're back in 90 seconds.

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Minister of Indigenous Affairs calls high-level meeting of federal ministers and Indigenous leaders to address systemic racism in health-care system

Guest: Marc Miller

MG: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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VOICE: I think that really in my heart, that's mean, that wake up and stand up all my sister and all my brother. Stand up together, all of us and said, that's enough. You're going to do something to stop that racist, you know. Look what's happened. That's enough.

MG: That's Alice Echaquan, the cousin of Joyce Echaquan speaking with me earlier this month. Joyce Echaquan was admitted to hospital in Joliette, Quebec with stomach pains. Two days later, she was dead, leaving behind seven children. In her final moments she live streamed the racist attacks from staff who dismissed her pain. There is now an enquiry in Quebec and premier Francois Legault formally apologized to Joyce Echaquan's family, but he continues to avoid saying that systemic racism exists in the province's health care system. Now the federal government is getting involved. Indigenous Services Minister Marc Miller has called a meeting that he's calling urgent with Indigenous leaders and government ministers. It happens this Friday. Marc Miller joins me now. Minister, good morning.

MARC MILLER: Morning Matt.

MG: I know that you met with Joyce Echaquan's family last week. What did you say to them?

MARC MILLER: Well, look, they came to Ottawa for a vigil on Parliament Hill, and it was an occasion to meet, to listen and meet this wonderful family that shouldn't have had to, that shouldn't have lost their mother. So we listened. My Minister Bennett and I and heard their cries for answers and justice for Joyce. But most importantly and courageously, they asked for justice for all victims of racism. And the events of the last week have reminded all Canadians that racism kills and systemic racism kills systematically. More often than not, Indigenous peoples, particularly in and I think this is where it's most gut wrenching for for Canadians that are seeing this and just peoples that are once again reminded that they are being targeted by the healthcare system, that there is work to do and the system has failed them. And they're asking not only the provincial government to recognise systemic racism, which is still very much an open wound not to have that recognized. But also the fact that something needs to be done. There is a body of work that has documented this in various commission reports. The TRC's calls to action, the MYWs report as well as the commission clearly outlined this and pointed out in cases the report that hospital in question. So we've we've asked Colin Bennett and I have asked to have a meeting with health practitioners formost that are going through this and have been through this and have the lived experience of being Indigenous and working in the health care field and reflect. Sorry go ahead Matt.

MG: But if there is systemic racism in Canada's health care system, what does it look like to you? I mean, describe what that looks like in the system.

MARC MILLER: Well, it means that people there's not only, in this case there is a clear expression of racism and the circumstances around it were caught on videotape. But we don't know the entire story. There might be worse than what occurred. So that is the most acute expression of racism. There are others where people are systemically bias is expressed towards them. There is there have been stories about people assumed to be in a state of intoxication when they are actually in a state of distress that had nothing to do with that. And it is assumed to be so because they are Indigenous and that kills. And so Indigenous peoples, this was not, while it was a shock for most Canadians, this was not a surprise to Indigenous people who live this every day and normalize it. The results, the negative results are tangible. Low uptake of, for example, the seasonal flu vaccine, refusal to go into the hospital, lack of access to the health care system, primarily on reserve.

MG: So let me stop you right there. You just said that this is not a surprise to Indigenous people in this country. You've named a number of incidents that have happened, whether it's Hugh P who died of a stroke in the Northwest Territories in August of 2016, health care workers assumed he was drunk. There was an enquiry that was called. Brian Sinclair died in Manitoba in 2008 after being ignored and untreated in an emergency department. There's this story out of British Columbia where staff at an ER had a game in which they tried to guess the blood alcohol level of people that they assumed were Indigenous. Why has it taken the release of the recording of Joyce Echaquan's final moments for the federal government to call for greater action, to say that this is systemic racism, but to call for greater action?

MARC MILLER: Well, look, I think as we reflect on the last six or seven months of COVID, which is a global pandemic and the need to accelerate on a number of these issues, that racism still is at the forefront and lack of adequate care and proper care, first class care for Indigenous peoples. I could reflect on why it has taken so long. I think Indigenous peoples have been failed time and time again by federal and provincial governments. I think it would be somewhat callous to remind everyone of the billions of dollars this government is invested in health infrastructure specifically, particularly in the light of these events. But there is work to be done. It includes infrastructure investments on reserve, convening our provincial counterparts to ensure that that care is provided off reserve. It is obviously a provincial jurisdiction when we talk about in the provincial health care system.

MG: But you're stepping into it now. Why hasn't this been addressed at a federal level before?

MARC MILLER: Well, we have. We've seen it throughout this pandemic. We've called it out. But again, we need to be able to be in a position of leadership in ensuring that our counterparts in the provinces are and I believe, I truly believe that they want to make a difference. Regardless what label you put on it, people are dying. There is a reason for it and it has to do with racism, systemic racism, the fact that people are Indigenous and are being discriminated against and shouldn't be have this mediocre care level upon them. And this is something that we need to fix and move forward on. There are reports time and time again. I think there are times in our country's history where events, whether we prefer to see them or not, shock the conscience and demand this and demand action. Now Carolyn Bennett and I have convened this meeting on Friday. It's an opportunity for frontline healthcare workers, mostly Indigenous, to reflect on the body of work. A petition that has been taken that is heavily documented, but also what's gone on last six months in COVID because we see improper care as well, as an opportunity to move forward. The throne speech two weeks ago highlighted the importance to move forward on distinctions based Indigenous health care legislation. That is no small task. And we have to start by starting.

MG: I just, I wonder what you would say to Indigenous people in this country who to your point, this is not a surprise to them, how they're treated. We heard from Alice Echaquan, Joyce Echaquan's cousin, saying that she was afraid to go to the hospital, that she would tell people in her community and her family not to go to that hospital. What would you say to Indigenous people in this country who are pessimistic that anything will come of what you're doing now because they have heard some of these concerns being raised before, whether it's through a commission, whether it's through the past stories, and they haven't seen action.

MARC MILLER: Look, I hate to generalize, but the greatest challenge to improving relationships between Indigenous and non-indigenous people is the barrier of trust. And more often than not, we have broken their trust that they've given to us. And this is one example of it. We have to just keep building that trust and not give up. And the burden is on the federal government. It is on provincial governments and it's on all Canadians that want to see that relationship improve. It is obviously a daunting task and there should be no illusions that that this Friday's meeting, while it is important meeting, will yield concrete results in the short term. But we will be asking people to come back in the near future, January, to have a concrete action plan. And whether that includes legislation or not related to the Health Care Act, that's something that we can consider. There's a lot of work that needs to be done. Indigenous communities have told us that we need to consult them, and that is something that takes a lot of time and there are different views across the country about what that should look like.

MG: Practically in the midst of a pandemic where people need care and to your point, people perhaps don't trust the system that's there, what can be done in the short term? To ensure that that trust is there so that people feel as though they're going to be treated in an equitable and fair way when they go to get that care that they need?

MARC MILLER: Well, look, there's a number of realities going on across the country. And my biggest challenge right now in the face of the second wave that will hit Indigenous peoples harder than the first is to keep people alive and healthy. Some of the lessons that we've learnt from the first wave is that when you give resources to indigenous communities and get out of the way, there are great results that can happen. Obviously, there's a partnership that needs to be there and there's lines of communication that need to stay open. But, you know, we're talking about emergency reaction in a pandemic. But if there's one thing we can learn so far from it is that when you trust people, the results are there. And statistically, Indigenous peoples have overcome the first wave, despite incredible odds better than non-indigenous peoples. The second wave is very, very scary as people sort of relax and get it in sort of pandemic fatigue and and drop their vigilance. So we have to keep up that good partnership and hopefully we can carry on with lessons in the future about how you have achieved self governance over health care. Because when you trust the people administering care to you, you will actually go in and get that vaccine and go in and get that care. But if you normalize the pain and trauma related to racism, I don't know why I'd go in and get treated if I knew I would be treated horribly. And that gets systematized and normalized across a whole spectrum of care. And it yields predictable outcomes that are negatively worse with non-indigenous people.

MG: Just in the remaining seconds that we have, how important is it to name it? To say that this is systemic racism? The premier of Quebec says that there's racism in his province, but he's not saying that systemic racism exists, including in the healthcare system. So how important is it to name it?

MARC MILLER: Without speaking for them, I think for the people and Joyce Echaquan's family is it's critically important petition. In a moment of intense pain, there's a sense of betrayal that comes with not acknowledging something, that it's a lived reality for everyone. It is the focus of the current debate, but beyond that focus is the need. Not only to recognise it, but to deal with it. If you can't recognise systemic racism, you can't you can't deal with the health outcomes that results systematically from it. And you're only attacking one issue at a time. It becomes a game of whack a mole. And that is what reforming the system looks like. It's more of it's band-aid patchwork, and that just can't be the outcome of fixing it. So we recognize the systemic failures, you're then able to move towards public policy tha addresses them. And that is the long term challenge, which I don't think any of us know the outcome of right now. And that's why we have to start by starting, for example, by having these meetings that are high level in nature, but with specific outcomes and targets we need to aim for.

MG: Marc Miller, we'll watch Friday's meeting closely. In the meantime, it's good to speak with you this morning. I appreciate your time. Thank you.

MARC MILLER: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Marc Miller is the federal Indigenous Services Minister.

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Journalist Ethan Lou on living through lockdown around the world

Guest: Ethan Lou

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One. My name's Matt Galloway. He mentioned the pandemic and the second wave. Cast your mind back to January. The early days before COVID-19 was declared a pandemic. There were warnings about a mysterious form of pneumonia that was spreading in the city of Wuhan, a virus similar to SARS and MERS. And then suddenly, after just 17 deaths, the Chinese government took action and one after another, countries around the world had to impose similar measures. We all have our own stories about the early days of that pandemic. My next guest experienced that on a journey from lockdown to lockdown, from China to Singapore to Germany and finally home to Toronto. Ethan Lou has written about that experience in a new book. It's called Field Notes From a Pandemic: A Journey through a World Suspended. Ethan. Good morning.

ETHAN LOU: Morning Matt. Thank you for having me.

MG: Thanks for joining us. Talk about being suspended. You were in the air, like literally in the air, when Wuhan, China was locked down. Tell me about the scene that greets you when you arrive at the airport in Beijing.

ETHAN LOU: Yeah, that was definitely a surreal feeling. Like two days before I left, I was literally at a birthday party with lots of people, and when I arrived in Beijing, I saw just a sea of people wearing face masks because there's a very lengthy barricade outside the baggage claim exit. So you see lots of people leaning on it, waiting to receive the travellers, and they're all looking at you. So it's like that's like that wall of masks in V for Vendetta, and it just dawned to me that I had entered a different world.

MG: That airport in Beijing is one of, I've been there, It's a busy, noisy place. There's always a lot going on. And of course, in a in a huge city like that, what did it sound like?

ETHAN LOU: I guess that day it sounded like any other airport. But when I was riding the Beijing subway a couple of days later, there was certainly a stillness there because I go to China quite often and I can tell you unequivocally that I have never been able to get a seat on the Beijing subway ever. But this time I think there were fewer than a dozen people on the entire train. And it just felt so eerie.

MG: Why did you go to China in the first place?

ETHAN LOU: At the time, I had just finished writing a whole other book and I was planning to take a break. And also, my grandfather had been in ill health. In the past year, his condition had turned for the worse, and my father had told me his exact words: "Prepare a dark suit." So I went there to see him and I felt very lucky because they started banning visitors from seniors homes about a day or two after I arrived. If I went later, I would not have been able to see my grandfather at all.

MG: What did you see in terms of the actions that the Chinese government took to control the virus in those very early days?

ETHAN LOU: It certainly happened very quickly. The day I landed, maybe two days after that, seniors homes across the country, they started banning all visitors and certain intercity buses between. So my grandfather was in like perhaps the Mississauga of Beijing. So passenger buses between my grandfather's city and Beijing, they were being banned. And soon, apartment buildings — most people live in apartment buildings, especially in Beijing, because it's so densely packed —and you have to get a permission slip to leave. It's something quite different from what you and me would experience here.

MG: Did you understand at the time, as these things are starting to come into place, how serious the situation was?

ETHAN LOU: Yes and no. I definitely understood how serious it was going to be in China. I lived through SARS in Singapore, so I remember when schools were suspended. I remember when the plague was, it was a very big deal. But I don't think at the time that I would have expected that it would spiral out of control in this way and it would engulf the whole world.

MG: You leave China and head to Singapore. That's where your parents live. Tell me a little bit about what that was like when you got to Singapore.

ETHAN LOU: So just a little before that, I was supposed to visit Hong Kong and then Hong Kong started quarantining visitors from the mainland. Flights were cancelled. Absolute pandemonium at the airport. So, I miss Hong Kong. I went to Singapore. And at first I felt very relieved because there was no virus consciousness there. And at the start, I think just like here, the government was telling people not to wear masks. And I had a great time. But slowly, you know, you notice that the government is reporting daily infection rates. And I think just about a few weeks after I left, complete lockdown in Singapore as well.

MG: You write about how some people, including a girlfriend of one of your friends, were quite concerned about the virus and was concerned about you and the fact that you had been in China so recently. What was that like to be on the receiving end of that attention?

ETHAN LOU: It definitely felt very weird. I think she was the one person who took that seriously back then. And she had good reason to, because she lived through SARS in China. And I think she experienced what we had not experienced. And, you know, and that definitely informed her thinking.

MG: She was really upset that you'd been out, I mean, essentially not quarantining, that you'd been walking around through Beijing and then suddenly you're there in restaurants and bars in Singapore.

ETHAN LOU: Yeah, definitely. And to be fair, there was no quarantine at the time, and nobody felt the way she did. But I think she definitely saw something that the rest of us did not.

MG: This is, I mean, the thing with this book is, as I said in the introduction, you kind of go from place to place. So you're in China. Then you end up in Singapore and then you go to Germany. You spent some years in your early childhood in Germany. When you get to Europe, what was the vibe like there?

ETHAN LOU: So on the day that I left Singapore, Europe was still, it was still the before times for Europe. And the day I left, Germany was still holding soccer matches with tens of thousands of fans, and the French president and his wife, they went to the theatre. And I don't think anyone had expected that the virus would come for them. But it all happened so quickly. I could be having schnitzels with a friend at a pub one day — it was a very rowdy pub — and the next, everything was closed and the downtown was a desert.

MG: Were you surprised to see some of the same tactics being employed in Germany as were being employed in China? Just in terms of the, you know, the dramatic and drastic steps that were taken to control the virus?

ETHAN LOU: Yes, absolutely. That's a great point you raise. And I think, at the start, you have this feeling that what China did, what it did to Wuhan, sealing off a whole city and keeping everyone unilaterally within their homes, that is something that can only be accomplished over there. But soon it started happening everywhere. And I guess, you know, when you look at, for example, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you only think about these these principles after your health is is safe, after that is safeguarded. But I think when that is under threat, we don't really have the energy to to bother with with these higher principles.

MG: Why did you stay in Germany? The federal government here in Canada was encouraging people to come home by commercial means — get on the planes while you can, before the flights disappear. You decided to ride it out in Germany. Why did you do that?

ETHAN LOU: So there were two reasons. One was that I ran into a lot of travel disruptions. My ticket back was cancelled three times. The first was because, originally, it was routed through the U.S. and then the U.S. started banning all flights from the EU. So the travel disruptions played a large part in that. And two, I felt that if I were to be back in Canada, it's it's basically the same. I won't be having in-person meetings with people. I won't be able to see my friends. So really, isolation in Canada, it's not that different from isolation in Germany. And I hadn't been back to Germany, I grew up there, I haven't been back in a while, and it was a source of comfort amid the chaos.

MG: But isolation is isolation. And, presumably, it's a bit more complicated if you're not in your home country, isn't it?

ETHAN LOU: Oh, yeah, definitely. I was lucky I had a place to stay. So a friend of mine, he had an empty apartment there, because of travel disruptions was not in Germany at the time. So I had an apartment there. And although I left Germany when I was six, but I still spoke like rudimentary German, I knew the language. And like, I do think one big risk I took was that I didn't really have any health insurance in Germany. If I did fall sick there, that definitely would have been a big problem.

MG: You can imagine a lot of people listening would be raising their eyebrows, wondering why you would do that.

ETHAN LOU: Oh yeah. And I guess in retrospect, lots of things are clearer. But at the time, I think, because I grew up there and I think one to six, those are very formative years and there was a lot of chaos and mayhem around me, and somehow there I felt safe.

MG: One of the things that you ended up doing to cope with that sense of isolation and just the boredom that so many of us felt early on in this pandemic was that you started running. Why did you start running?

ETHAN LOU: Yeah. I'm very fitness conscious, so normally my choice of exercise is rock climbing, but clearly that's not an option amid the pandemic. And so I picked up running. And it did feel cathartic in a way. It helps you, I think, seeing all the greenery. And I think there's something running does to the mind. And I'm sure you understand, you're a runner as well and it really helps you clear your head in a way.

MG: Is that why you think so many people. Like, if you look at the streets across this country, you will see people in numbers that you couldn't have imagined out running. People who've never run before or people who haven't run in a long time who are picking it back up. Is that why you think people are doing it now, is because, as you say, it does something to the mind?

ETHAN LOU: Absolutely. When I run, I think more than if I were to sit down or something. And this is probably a very unscientific explanation. But my sense of time when I run, it sort of lengthened and I cram a lot of thoughts into into a short window. But I also think another reason why so many people are running is because they normally go to gyms, and now the gyms are closed. And that is the one activity you can still pursue.

MG: You're now back in Toronto, how did it feel when you came back home?

ETHAN LOU: It was definitely quite a surprising sight, because I think when I left, everything was normal. I did experience lots of lockdowns in different places, but it was all away from home. And so, in that base and primal part of the brain, I did feel that the lockdown was a, was a foreign phenomenon. And I did keep up with the news. I think on a on a rational level, I knew what was going on and the dos and don'ts. But I think seeing everything in person, that was definitely jarring.

MG: You've done a lot of reading about past pandemics. How do you think this moment we're in right now has been shaped by by things in the past?

ETHAN LOU: I think definitely lots of people know this, that the word quarantine, it comes from Italian. It came from the measures to deal with the plague. And a lot of the containment measures, they are they are rooted in the past. And also there are people who write that it is the plagues that helped shape the modern state because, in the past, a medieval government, they didn't really have much to do with their citizens lives. They just collected taxes. And if they fought, you know, they conscripted the men. But otherwise, they let them be. But, you know, with the plague, they started safeguarding the borders more. They set up temporary health agencies that that became permanent. And, you know, with that, you need you need more taxes to run that, we need people to enforce that, and scholars say that eventually shaped the modern world.

MG: The title of the book is A Journey through a World Suspended. And it feels like we're still, in some ways suspended. At some point in time we will be right back down to Earth. What do you think that is going to be like?

ETHAN LOU: I don't think we will ever go back completely to the before times. We will eventually find a normal. We will find an equilibrium that we are able to deal with. But it's hard to say what exactly will happen. But I think what we experienced in January, like like a birthday party I went to, I think those will definitely be fewer in the future.

MG: Do you regret getting on that plane to go to China, given the adventure and the journey that you've been on over the last many months?

ETHAN LOU: EYes and no. I think I definitely didn't get a real vacation. But also, at the same time, I'm glad to have seen my grandfather. And while we thought at the time that his condition was becoming bad, he actually made it throughout the whole thing. And he has quite severe dementia. I don't think he knows what's going on. But, I don't know when I'll be able to go to China again with all the travel disruptions, so I'm glad to have seen my grandfather.

MG: You have experienced this in a way that is different from so many of us. Ethan, it's good to speak with you. Thank you.

ETHAN LOU: It's an absolute pleasure. Thanks for having me.

MG: Take care. Bye-bye.

ETHAN LOU: Bye.

MG: Ethan Lou's new book is called Field Notes From a Pandemic: A Journey through a World Suspended. That is it for The Current for today. Stay tuned to CBC Radio One for Q. Talia Schlanger in for Tom Power. I was speaking earlier with the head coach of the Toronto Raptors, Nick Nurse. He is known obviously to most as a basketball coach. In some circles though, he's just Nick, the guitar player. We thought we'd leave you with a little bit of Nick, the guitarist, joined by his friends, the Arkells. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

SOUNDCLIP

[Clip of Nick Nurse performing with the Arkells]

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Oct. 13, 2020 episode transcript

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